Transcript of Part Seven

Stacy: So now you've got Zoë out. You've got Astra. You've got both of your daughters with you.

Lawrence: Right.

Stacy: The three of you have basically realized that there is no way for you to maintain the relationships with…

Lawrence: Right. Right. Well, in actual fact, Astra had taken me a little while longer. And, you know, it took me, like, two or three months to show her the true nature of Scientology. 'Cause she came out saying, "I'm going to pay off my freeloader bill. I'm going to go on course…"

Stacy: Astra?

Lawrence: Astra, yeah. So then, you know, I then showed her stuff on the internet, you know? And, she began to put two and two together. And then when she told me that, you know, the worst day of my life, she told me she had been thinking about suicide 'cause she felt so trapped. So, I'm, like…

Stacy: You mean when she was in Scientology?

Lawrence: When she was in Scientology. She told me that one day, she was suicidal. She wanted to throw herself down the stairwell. And, I'm, like, you know, as a parent to have your daughter turn around and tell you that one day she felt suicidal. And I'm thinking, "Oh my God, if she had done it!" I just felt so much guilt, you know? And, like, didn't I know what was going on? I was so blind. I can't tell you how that felt, you know. So, even so…even…you know, so Astra told me her stories, like, how she couldn't see me, how she couldn't receive my phone calls, how she wasn't allowed to leave the building. And I'm going, "Oh my God! I knew it was bad but I had no idea." And then Astra was, "Oh my God! This is what really happened." It's like all coming together.

Stacy: And now Astra and Zoë are trading stories, too.

Lawrence: Yeah. And then Zoë is easier, though, because Zoë…I give her, you know, "L. Ron Hubbard, Madman or Messiah," and she reads it in, like, a day. Man, she just eats it! She devours it! And she's, like, "Oh my God! This is so awful. This is so awful." It's not like…she's not, like, "This book is terrible. This book is bad." It's, like, "Oh my God! This is the true nature of what I've been in. And it all kind of tallies with my experiences. And then the abortion issue. And then it's all…" And then, so, we're just three people with so much anger.

Stacy: Yeah.

Lawrence: But, like, but we're at the same time so happy because, you know…but at the same time, they are still talking to their mother on the phone. "How are you, darling? How's the baby?" And their brother is still in. And then, you know, we're still all hanging out. And, of course, when the brother comes around, you know, when he wants something or wants us to help him rent a car so he can go on a recruitment tour, we're all, like happy Scientologists. "Oh, yes! We're going to be on course one day." You know, we're…

Stacy: So, you're still putting up an act.

Lawrence: But we don't really care. I mean, I personally don't care. But I, you know, at the same time, I think, "Well, I don't want my daughters alienated from their mother, 'cause that's a horrible thing. So let's just keep everything honky dory." And, you know, let's keep it all happy. So, you know, I'm, like, looking on the internet, reading hostile books. But, like, keeping…you know, biding my time, being good. But it's very difficult for me to, like, you know, when we're alone, the three of us are, like, talking up a storm about our horrible experiences. But when we're, like, with…and I have Scientology clients and they're, like, "Larry, you know, I love working with you on this project. But when are you going to get back on course?" And I'm going, "Oh, you know, I'm busy right now. But one day…" And so, but I'm like…(groans). It's a horrible…it's horrible, you know?

Stacy: It's living a lie.

Lawrence: It's living a lie. You know, so…and then anyway, so…

Stacy: But you're still feeling that you need to live this lie because they're holding the mother and the grandmother and the brother hostage, basically.

Lawrence: Uh-huh. Yeah. And then I have, like, Scientology clients and I don't want to…I want to keep making a living. Because then I have, like, two daughters and a granddaughter to support and an assistant, you know? You know, five or six months after we get Zoë out (inaudible) I receive a phone call from one of my clients. He's called Wilf Beck. He's OTVII, you know, he gives me a fair amount of work. And he says, "I hear there's some goldenrod out on you." So, I'm going…goldenrod, now in Scientology…when there's, like, extreme ethics actions taken, they print it on, like, yellow paper that they….

Stacy: Goldenrod.

Lawrence: …refer to as goldenrod. So, when they say, "I hear there's goldenrod out on you…"

Stacy: It's way bad.

Lawrence: It's really, really bad! And it's, like, nothing…it's not like a little slap on the wrist. It's, like, you know, if they could…it's Scientology's capitol punishment. You know, if they could take you and execute you, they would. So, like, I'm going, "Oh, come on! Well, there's been a mistake." You know, "Am I an anti-Scientologist?" He says, "No," you know, "you're cool." I go, "That's a mistake, you know." And he says, "Well," he said, I said, "Have you seen anything?" He said, "No, but," he said, "there's a company called Boston Brick & Stone. There's a guy called Dave," who I also do a lot of work with, and he said, "they told me about it." So, I call up Dave and I say, "Dave, what's this all about?" And he says, "Oh, yes," he said, "we've received a letter from the International Justice Chief in Scientology saying that you are a Suppressive Person and we can no longer have anything, any contact, any work to…anything to do with you." He said, "This all happened about a month ago," you know, "and we've been looking to replace you. But, you know, we're still working with you on some projects. But when they're done, they're done. Goodbye." And so, he said, "I'll fax you a copy of the letter." So I said, "Please do." So, anyway, I do have that letter saying, you know, which I believe went down to all of my Scientology clients saying, "You cannot work with…" "Larry Woodcraft is a Suppressive Person."

Stacy: So now they're ordering all your clients not to work with you anymore?

Lawrence: Right. But now, it doesn't stop at that because these people, Wilf and Dave and other people call me and say, you know, "We can't find anyone to replace you." You know, "You have worked out ways to get permits for our work," which was, like a lot of rebuilding earthquake damage. And, you know, I knew people at the Building Department. I could literally, you know, go in to the Building Department and get a permit for them in a day, which they loved. And other people who weren't so familiar with the building codes, would…one, charge them a lot more money and two, it would take them weeks! You know, so I had worked out systems, you know. I'm always working things out. I've worked out ways to get permits and I had friends in the Building Department, you know. I'm not doing anything illegal but I just know the system.

Stacy: How to speed things up.

Lawrence: And I live five minutes from the Building Department. And I go in and it's like, "Hi Larry! What do you need today? We trust your work." They don't scrutinize my work 'cause they're so familiar. I've been to them for hundreds of permits. So the Scientologists love this, you know, because, you know, they loved it. And they would call me and say, "We cannot find anyone to replace you who…like, they're too busy. They can't do it. They would charge us three times as much. Can you please go in and handle it? Can you please, please go in?" They were begging me.

Stacy: Did you ever get a copy of your…what was this, a Suppressive Person declare?

Lawrence: Yes. A suppressive…

Stacy: With the goldenrod.

Lawrence: Astra went in and saw a girl called Lisa Hamilton at the Organization in L.A. who was responsible for it.

Stacy: Is this the injustice chief?

Lawrence: No, I think she's, like, the (inaudible) I & R pack or something. But she's been, like, doing investigations into, like, any out-ethics in the field in L.A.

Stacy: What were you declared suppressive for?

Lawrence: Well, they believed that I had posted things on the internet. But they had absolutely no proof because, you know, they can't prove any of that.

Stacy: So, for posting something on the internet, you get declared a Suppressive Person?

Lawrence: Well, if it's critical of the Church, yes. Yes.

Stacy: If you post something critical of the Church of Scientology on the internet, you get declared suppressive?

Lawrence: Yes. But even though I just, you know, it could be with, like, discussing my experiences. Or, like, the asbestos on the ship, you know? So, anyway, as I understand it, they have a whole team of people who just figure out who these posts are from and they try and figure it out. And, but the major thing on my…so Astra had gone in and seen Lisa Hamilton and said, you know, "You declared my Dad." And Lisa said, "That's right. Here's the order." So, Astra took it and Lisa said, "Give it back." And Astra said, "No," and took off. Because they don't want that going to the public.

Stacy: Right.

Lawrence: You know, because they…

Stacy: So, you have your declare now?

Lawrence: I do have it, yes. Now the major thing on it was that I had hindered the recovery efforts of two staff members.

Stacy: That's Astra and Zoë.

Lawrence: Exactly, which is deemed to be a suppressive act. And which, yes, I did that hindering. I consider that I saved my daughters from a life of hell. But, you know…

Stacy: So, now you had been worried about declared. How do you feel about it now?

Lawrence: Well, in Scientology it's a very big thing to be declared. And, like, you know, I had a certain amount of dread. You know, I knew it was coming. Well, in actual fact, I didn't know it was coming. But, you know, I had an idea that… you know, if ever they found out I had been to Clearwater and grabbed Zoë, they would be very upset and want some kind of revenge. And so, you know, I kind of knew it was coming. I had some kind of dread, you know. Because I thought, "Well, I'll lose my business." And I have friends who are Scientologists who can no longer talk to me. And apart from that, it's, like, it's like a label that's attached to you that lives with you. It's a Suppressive Person. You can never really get it lifted. You are a suppressive. And it's just words but it kind of, like, then you're like, you're a murderer. You're a rapist. You're a Suppressive Person.

Stacy: But it's only within the Scientology world.

Lawrence: It's only within Scientology but it, like, has an affect on you. You know, I mean, I would say that I was trying to avoid it. And, you know, so for the first few days, I couldn't sleep, really…

Stacy: Really?

Lawrence: No. I would wake up thinking, "Oh my God. This is like my worst nightmare and it has happened. I'm scum." But then I'd think, "Well, no, you know…my actions were those of a father desperate, wracking his brain to, like, try and give his daughters a life. And try and his granddaughter a life." And is that, like, up there with murderer, rapist, armed robber? No, you know? And any reasonable person who knew my actions would say, "Well done," you know? At last, okay, they would say, "You have been a very bad father and you had gotten your daughters into awful situations and," you know, "you were, like, neglectful." And I think I was. "But then, when you saw the writing on the wall, you then did everything you could. You put yourself on the line to save them." You know, and people I've told about this non-Scientologist said, "Wow!" You know, they admired me! They admired me!

Stacy: For the very things that you were declared a Suppressive Person for.

Lawrence: Yeah. Exactly. And so, I thought, "You know…"

Stacy: It's kind of through the looking glass, isn't it?

Lawrence: Then I started to think of it as, like, a badge of honor, you know? I'm willing to speak out. I have my own mind. I've freed myself from the brainwashing. And now I know what's wrong and right, you know? Kids with no school-wrong! Kids getting and education-right, you know? Indiscriminate abortion-wrong! You know, loving babies-right. You know, I thought, you know, I have become my…I have risen through Scientology. I finally have my own mind and I know…I know in the full sense of the word what is right and what is wrong. And how to conduct a decent life, you know? I thought, I've…really, I've become a human being. And this badge tells the world that I'm a human being so I became proud. You know, it turned around. So, now, you know…and I love to meet other Suppressive Persons because I think they are people who have courage. You know, they are people who, like, in Nazi Germany would, like, smuggle Jews out of the system. I'm, like, you know, I don't think I'm anything like that magnitude, you know. But I feel it's a little bit of the same. You know, maybe back…if I…I like to think maybe if I'd been in Germany, I would have smuggled Jews out. Maybe I would have done that, you know? I would have put my life on the line.

Stacy: One likes to hope so.

Lawrence: Yeah, I hope so. I hope, you know, I found out a little bit of what I'm like as a person. That's how I've come out of Scientology and now, I would do…I've just learned so much, you know, about the true nature of that organization. And I feel I've been spat out. I've been chewed up and spat out the other side. And, surprisingly, you know, I am a good architect. I'm a licensed architect. I'm a professional. I'm extremely proud of that. And I dropped the clients who were Scientologists, who I find, you know, weren't such great clients. They are very demanding. They like to apply the LRH policies to their activities and it can be very frustrating. So now I find that, you know, you find…you go into a situation with dread and fear and you think, "Oh my God! You know, the world's going to collapse. I'm going to be broke. I'm a bad person. I'm not a Scientologist." You know, you go through all of these weird mental conditions and, like, I would lose nights of sleep thinking, "What's going to become of me and my kids?" And then, you go through it, you know? And, like, your business gets bigger than ever. You do survive. And you're like, what was I worried about, you know? I can make it. But I make it on my terms, you know? So that's my story.

Stacy: That's great. How did you find out about the Lisa McPherson Trust?

Lawrence: Astra actually found out about it because, you know, there's so much information on the internet. And, so we started to read about the…we'd see…I had seen on the TV, you know, what happened about Lisa McPherson. And, Oh my God. And then, Astra thought, "Well, you know," her mother, Leslie Woodcraft, was on post at the time in the Flag Service Organization and she was the…she was called the HAS which stands for Hubbard Communications Office Area Secretary, which means she is over that whole division. She's over, like, personnel, over ethics and over communications. So, she is over that whole section in the organization. So, she thought, "My mother must have knowledge of this." You know, so anyway, on the internet…she does a search on the internet, she types in Leslie Woodcraft and, like, the whole Lisa McPherson thing comes up-Oh my God! She's going, "Dad! Dad! You've got to see this!" And Leslie was in deposition and we found out she watched her for at least one night. And, you know, so we're just, like, "Oh my God!" Like, Astra is, like, "My mother, like, knew what was going on and didn't act," you know?

Stacy: She was part of it.

Lawrence: And she was, like, freaked. She's was freaked. And she's even, "My mother was, like, a murderer." And I'm going, "Well, I don't know if it's that strong, Astra. Come on!" And anyway, and so at some point in time, her and…like, on a visit to L.A., Astra does ask her, you know, "Mum, tell us about Lisa McPherson." And her mother is like, "Well, tell me what lies you've been told." And, "Do you know how she really died, Astra?" And Astra says, "Well, I know she didn't die from a blood clot." And anyway, Leslie says, "Well, I didn't think we were going to talk about Scientology. I thought we were just, you know, reestablishing our relationship." So and then Zoë asked her about it and Zoë says, "You know, Mum, what about Lisa McPherson? Did you have anything to do with that?" And Leslie says, "Oh, Lisa McPherson was just some crazy person who had an accident, tore all her clothes off and ran down the street. She was just some crazy person." And Zoë is, like, "But mom. She's dead at the age of 36," or whatever it was. And then, so on another occasion, Astra said to her, "You were watching her. Why didn't you do something? Why didn't you speak out? You know, you saw her declining health. You saw her becoming dehydrated. Why? You're my mother! Why didn't you do something?" And Leslie says, "Well, what was the alternative, Astra? Would you have like her to have been looked after by psychiatrists?" And Astra says, "But mom. She's dead! Anything would be better than what happened to her…anything!" You know, anyway, so that's…so then, you know, we knew all about the Lisa McPherson Trust and so…

Stacy: From the internet?

Lawrence: From the internet, yeah. And then we called and we spoke with Bob Minton and we said, you know, Astra said, "You know, my mother…we might have information to help," you know, "with the criminal case." And so, and then, you know, we also have our own just horrendous stories, you know? So, you and Bob were interested, you know? I mean, I still have…although I'm…I would consider myself to be, like, a recovering Scientologist. And I consider my daughters to be the same. And I have a lot of attention on their state of mind, you know, because I know, you know from reading psychology and from speaking to people, I know how impressionable you are as a child. And I've been worried, you know, like, Astra has…she's been through so much, you know. Like, like…and made to work, lied to, you know, the pregnancy thing. I knew that when she was on post, she told me about how she was, like, verbally abused by a senior who would call her a lesbian and, like, make sexual innuendos. And, like, and she tried to get it handled and it wasn't handled. And I'm thinking, "Oh my God! You know, I just…these people…you know, like, the climate in California…any kind of sexual harassment, it's like a huge lawsuit, you know? That's with an adult who has sexual harassment, you know? And I remember cases and sometimes you think its frivolous but then you think, "well, you know, sometimes it is frivolous maybe. But then, if people are harassed and stopped from doing their job and called a lesbian then, you know, it should be stopped." You know, the climate in California is so, like, any anti, any discrimination of any nature, you know, it has been stopped. And you have, like, huge recourse. And probably 20 years ago, it was a different climate. But then I know in California also, anything with a child, you know, anything that harms a child, the courts just take it so seriously. And here you have my daughter who was, like, day after day after day was called a lesbian as a joke. And was, like, you know, her life was controlled so rigidly. And I'm thinking, "Oh my God!" You know, "what do I…should I get her into therapy? How…" And it's difficult to even explain to people how Scientology affects you, you know? It's so difficult…so complicated.

Stacy: Mm-hmm.

Lawrence: And, you know, it's exasperating. So now…and the same with Zoë. You know, my daughter, Zoë, had been in it since she was two and she has seen so much. And she…it's taken her years to achieve freedom and now, she has no contact. Her mother won't talk to her. Her mother thinks she's scum, you know, how does that affect the mind of a child of 16 who should be thinking about school and careers and boyfriends? But her mother will never speak to her, you know? Like, how does that affect the mind of a child? I don't know. I'm not a mental health professional. I don't know. But now, you know, we've come to Clearwater and we've been able to talk about our experiences. You know, we've cried. We've laughed and I would say it's so therapeutic, you know, for my daughters. And, you know, I know, in psychology that when someone's been through an abusive situation, it's, like, in layers. You know, as you start to talk, you go deeper and deeper, the layers come off and…Oh my God, you didn't even realize what you've been through. And I know this is common in case of, like, abuse, sexual abuse. And so, just to have someone who understands the system, like Stacy, you know, like Bob. Like Mark. Just to have someone who understands what we've been through. And to be able to talk it out is so wonderful, you know? And it's like a load off, you know? And I would just…and, you know I have friends back in L.A. who, like, a friend of mine has…his mother is in. His brother is on course and yet, he was sent to Scientology school and he has so much anger because he missed out on his whole education, you know? And he was a great…he had a student…he's now an engineer. It took him to at least 27 to graduate. He had so much potential. He's so bright. And he has so much anger at the Church, you know? And he's…now, he has a drinking problem, you know. And I haven't known what to tell him. Now, I should tell him, you know, you just have to have the courage to face up to these people. You know, to say, "No, you cannot take my whole life from me."

Stacy: Mm-hmm.

Lawrence: To face up…and okay, you run a risk of, like, maybe your mother isn't going to speak to you again. Maybe your brother isn't going to speak to you again. But, hell, maybe they are! Maybe they are going to work through it with you.

Stacy: Yeah.

Lawrence: So, you have to take a risk, you know? Someone has to say, "No" to these people. You know, "You are not going to abuse anyone else!" You know, we have to get angry! And say, "No, I'm not going to…" You know, like, the people who stood up in Nazi Germany, eventually Hitler was overcome. There was people executed and punished, you know? And I know it's a different magnitude. But, you know, and it's taught me that you have to say, "No. Enough is enough." You know, I am going to have the courage. I'm going to take risks! I'm going to risk losing friends who maybe weren't friends who would drop you, you know. If you just dare criticize the Church once, they're going to drop you. They are not friends. You know, I am going to make new friends. And you do. So, I would say to anyone who has been abused and suffered or even been in Scientology, you don't even know what you've been through until you step back. Until you step out, you don't even know what you've been through. You don't even know how you've been coerced, you know? I spoke to a lady here from Italy who was tricked out of two million dollars. And, oh my God! You know, it just… my mind is reeling with the horror stories of a criminal organization out of control. Out of control…a criminal organization out of control. And I don't even think I know…it's not even the tip of the iceberg. I don't even…I'm just hearing stories of reverse auditing, money laundering…I just…and I know…I just…my mind is reeling! And, but I know the human spirit has stood up over the centuries and said, "No!" You know, "you are not going to just trash me and treat me like garbage!" You know, I know the human spirit can stand up and say, "No," you know, "you are not going to take my children!" So, I know these people are going to be overcome and it's tough, you know, but I know that we can do it. And the Lisa McPherson Trust has given me that certainty. You know, I am going to back to L.A. and I'm going to build up my architectural practice, support my kids and do what I can, you know? And so…and I just urge anyone who is now in Scientology to, like, you know…this isn't an attack on your religion. This is, like, stop the abuse. Stop the criminality. And I know people. I know the human spirit will rise up and overcome it as it has through history.

Stacy: Thanks very much.

Lawrence: You're welcome.

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