Transcript of Part Six

Stacy: Zoë is how old at this point?

Lawrence: Zoë will be at this point, she would be, like, 14. So then, anyway, so, anyway, Astra is, like, 6 months pregnant and so, in 3 months she has the baby. And, of course, Zoë…well, the first thing is Zoë is given leave for a…you know, because Astra is supposedly in good standing. She starts to pay off her freeloader bill for $90,000.00 they billed her. Even though, now, we've got all the medical. Now, we've got…all my money is, like, buying a nursery, a crib, a car, you know and, like, baby clothes. On and on and on and on…medical, you know? On and on and on. So, this is costing a fortune. And then, so but then we fly Zoë out for the birth. And, of course, Zoë, "Oh! I've got a little baby niece!" You know, Zoë is blown away for this whole thing. And then, Zoë starts to be horrified by, like, "This beautiful little baby! They wanted you to have an abortion? Oh my God! I can't believe it!" Zoë is freaking out! And so Zoë, and, like, I'm going, "She's unstable. She's like, here I see a chink in her armor. But she's still, like, I'm going to be in the Sea…

Stacy: You mean unstable in a good way?

Lawrence: …Org. Yeah. Yeah, unstable in a good way. I see my, like, chink in the armor to get in there.

Stacy: So, you hadn't realized that Zoë was unhappy 'cause she was telling you that everything was great, right?

Lawrence: Right. Right. The same PR line because, you know, in the time Astra came back home, I discovered she never…she went to school one day. And then, like, she worked all night frequently. And then the worst aspect was she was told that, as I was ex-Sea Organization, she couldn't see me. She couldn't speak to me on the phone.

Stacy: Why?

Lawrence: Because I was…anyone who has left the Sea Organization is, even if they remain in Scientology, is discovered what they call a degraded being. In other words, scum. And then, she was told by her senior, she could not see me. So every time she came to see me, she snuck out and lied…

Stacy: She was sneaking.

Lawrence: Yeah. So, like, man…I was just (heavy sigh).

Stacy: So, now you have the same situation with Zoë?

Lawrence: I have the same situation with Zoë and I'm working on…I don't want…then I'm thinking, "You know, I am not having…I am not having another kid of mine going into the Sea Org, getting pregnant…"

Stacy: So, now this is the first…

Lawrence: And getting a $90,000.00 bill.

Stacy: This time when she came to see the baby, that was the first time you saw…

Lawrence: I hadn't seen her…

Stacy: This was the first time she actually said something to you…

Lawrence: Right.
Stacy: …critical of Scientology.

Lawrence: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, she had once said to me before, you know, "Dad, I don't know if I want to go into the Sea Org or not." She was in the Cadets, which means, like, a pre-Sea Org. She was, like, in the Cadets because she was the daughter of a Sea Org Member. So, she said to me some time before this, "Dad, you know, I'm not sure I want to join the Sea Org." So, I said, I just said, "Zoë, you know, you're welcome to join but, like, you know, if you join, don't make it through pressure. Don't make because recruiters put a lot of pressure on kids to join." I said, "It has to be your decision. You want to do it, you know." Because, I said, "It's your life." You know, and "You can do what you want with your life, you know? As long as you don't break the law. You can be a doctor or you can be…you're a very bright kid. You could be a doctor. You could be a teacher. You could, you know, think about what you want to do with your life." And I said, "No one…I'm you father but I'm not going to tell you what to do with your life. My parents never told me. I decided I wanted to be an architect, then they supported me." I said, "No one tells you what you want to do with your life. That is not my personal philosophy. You are free to choose, you know, even if you want to be a dancer or anything, you know, I will support you and help you. But it's totally your decision." I said, "And no one should pressure you into being anything, you know? If you want to join the Sea Org then it has to be your free choice." I just said that to…I thought I was doing the Sea Org a favor 'cause I thought, well, no one wants someone to join the Sea Org…you know…I figured I'm doing them a favor, you know. It will make sure that if she does go in, it will be her free choice. I didn't even realize what I had said. I didn't even realize the effect that had on her. Because she went back to her mom when she want back at the end of her time with me, she went back to her mother and said, "Mom, I think I want to go to college." (interviewer laughs) And her mom…(makes gawking sound) And then, the upshot of that innocent conversation was I never saw her for, like, a year and a half. They kept her away from me, you know. She got in…

Stacy: And you didn't realize…

Lawrence: I didn't even realize what I had said, you know. I was giving her, like, a father doing a little pep talk.

Stacy: This really is a battle for the mind of a person, isn't it?

Lawrence: Totally. Totally.

Stacy: Did you ever realize that that's what you were doing? That you were fighting for the minds of your daughters?

Lawrence: Certainly not at the point when I had that, like, innocent conversation with Zoë. But, by the time the baby was born and Zoë came out to see the baby…
Stacy: And you knew what had happened to Astra.

Lawrence: Oh, yeah. Yes. I, at that point, was using everything I knew. I was using…I was thinking and planning and, you know, working…that was my solid intention was then to get Zoë out to save her from a life of hell.

Stacy: Because you knew that you had to get her to change her mind…

Lawrence: Right.

Stacy: You couldn't just take her out.

Lawrence: I couldn't just take her. I had to, like, get to her. You know, I had to like, show…

Stacy: Get her to see.

Lawrence: Get her to see, yeah. So, I…and Astra was the same. We were both planning. How can we get Zoë out? What can we do? So, then, she loved the baby. She loved Kate and she's a beautiful baby.

Stacy: She's incredible.

Lawrence: Zoë was, like, goo-goo over her, you know? And we bought a dog and she loved the dog. And we bought the dog deliberately, you know. A house, a baby, a dog. Zoë was in heaven. And she's, like, "Oh! How could they think of having this baby aborted? The Sea Org wanted this baby…and she's beautiful, like, what is going on with this Church?" And, like, and I'm, like, we…Astra and me are, like, the seeds of doubt have been planted, you know? This is our way in to Zoë. And then we said to Zoë, you know, "Zoë, you can stay and go to school here and, you know, see the baby all the time, Zoë. And finish your education." Because at this time, I didn't realize she never went to school properly and I didn't realize what garbage it was and how far behind she was falling. You know, I thought, "Well, you can just shift to school here." And, you know, I think at that point, Zoë said, "Yeah, you know, I think I would like to come and live in L.A." She said, "But I, you know, I'm not going to upset my mother. And I want to leave but leave properly." And she said, "I will go back and tell them I want to leave and they will just say, 'Fine.'" (interviewer laughs) "And then I will come back." And, you know…and then we said, "But Zoë, why don't you just stay?" You know, "Just stay and we'll handle it. We'll just write them a letter or you can tell them by phone and…"

Stacy: Just don't go back.

Lawrence: "Just don't go back and stay with the baby and go to school. There's a school a mile away," you know. And, but Zoë wouldn't, you know, she's a very stubborn kid. She is a very stubborn kid, which, in the end, we used to our advantage. She's a very…she said, "No. I will leave properly. I'm not going to upset my…I love my mother. I love my grandmother. I love my brother. I'm not going to just blow. I'm going to go back and just tell them I want to leave." So then, we said, "Zoë, please," you know, "you don't have to go back," but there's a limit as to how far we can push.

Stacy: Sometimes a person has to learn for themselves.

Lawrence: Right. And then I was screaming inside me, I wanted to turn around and say, "Zoë! Do you know what's going to happen to you in the Sea Org? What happened to Astra…"

Stacy: But you couldn't tell her.

Lawrence: But then, you know, then she would, like, look at you and say, "Oh, you're, like an anti-Sea Org Member, anti-Church Member…

Stacy: And you would lose her again.

Lawrence: Lose her again, you know, permanently. We were, like, risking losing her permanently.

Stacy: Oh. It's such a delicate situation.

Lawrence: It's like we're walking a tightrope to try and save this child. So then, she goes back but we…she's phoning us constantly. We're saying, "Zoë, how's the program going?" And she's, like, "Oh, I don't know. They promise me it will be two months, but, like, my mother is adding more stuff." It's…no one will…she had to get word clearing because they assumed that she wanted to leave her…you know, she had been studying something called the Student Hat, which is really for adults. And she'd…you listen to these tapes from L. Ron Hubbard, which I found difficult and he's, like, (impersonating LRH) "Study is all about study. But then let me tell you about photography. When I was a photographer, I used nickel silver iodine plates and I perfected the tech of that. And let me tell you about the galaxy, and then…" ramble, ramble, ramble…an hour later… "and that's all I have to say about study for this tape." (interviewer laughs) Listen to the next tape, "Study. Let me tell you about study. I remember when I was a racing driver." I found that tough. And for a kid, it's, like, she's going out of her mind on these tapes. So, anyway they said you have to word clear all these tapes. And just, for a little kid of 14, give me a break!

Stacy: Yeah.

Lawrence: So anyway, so, she was, like, more and more, I could tell in the phone conversations, "I don't know when I'm going to finish these programs, but I don't know." So then we hatched another scheme. We go, "Let's go on a vacation to Hawaii with the baby." And then it will be like when I took Astra to England, she'll say, "Hey vacations! Hawaii," you know. "Trips to the beach, good food, like, fun! Fun! You know, she never had fun."

Stacy: Mm-hmm.

Lawrence: And so…and then we called up Zoë. We said, "Zoë, we're going to Hawaii! We want you to come because you are entitled to, like, vacation as a Sea Org Member. It is in policy for LRH," though God knows, they hardly ever get it. We said, "you know, we've already paid for the tickets and the hotel." "We're going on such and such a date and we're going to be really upset if you don't come. And you have to come. You have to come." And Zoë is going, "Oh, I don't know. But Hawaii?! I've never had a vacation! I want to come!" And she's going, "Okay. I'm going to work this out." And so, she's, like, jumping up and down, like, "I want to go to Hawaii! I want to go to Hawaii!" And they're going, "No, you can't go." And she's going, "What?? I can't go?? But I want to go! I've never had a vacation!" So, eventually…and her mother says, "You can go, Zoë-but, like, for 10 days. And, as soon as you get back from Hawaii, you mustn't stay in L.A. You know, like, "you have to come straight back to Clearwater." And so, anyway, she goes to Hawaii. We have a great time and, like, Astra and I are like chipping away at her. Chipping away and, like, she's, like, she gets upset if I…I start to say things against Scientology. I start to say, you know, "Zoë, you know, they make you…" I said, "if you ever want to have children, you know, you really can't have children. If ever you get pregnant, even by accident, you'll have to have an abortion, you know? Zoë, you know, you're never going to be properly educated. But if you went to school here, you could go to college, you know, like, you dreamed of. You know, like, your dreams. Remember your dreams?" But she's, like, "Dad, I don't want you to say things against Scientology. I don't want you to." So, I'm, like, "Oh my God," you know.

Stacy: She doesn't want to have those thoughts start up in her own head.

Lawrence: Right. So then, like…

Stacy: Because she'll get in trouble.

Lawrence: Yeah. So and like, we come back. After ten days, she's still really a Scientologist but she still wants to leave. But she's still…and then we come back to L.A. and her mother starts to call and say, "Zoë, come back now. Your vacation is over." And so, like, I'm desperate, like. And she wants to go back so, like…So then Astra and I are scheming behind the scenes all the time. "What do we do? What do we do?" Like…and Astra is saying, "Just don't-Dad you've got such a big mouth. If you open it, you're going to blow her overboard! Let me handle it!" But Astra is, like, trying to get to her but we're not getting through. So, then one night, she's due to go back and just, I'm going, "What have I got to lose?" So, "Zoë, you know…" I just give her the whole thing. OT 3 material, I say, "Zoë, you know, they believe that we are all aliens that came here from outer space five millions years ago."

Stacy: You did?

Lawrence: Yeah. "Zoë, you know, they…they are criminals. They abuse people," you know, "they lie." You know, "Zoë, please…you've got to get out!" And we were…and she's, like, "What? Dad! What's happened to you? What are you telling me?" And we're showing her documents. We're, like…we're just…at this point, what have I got to lose? And, like, Zoë…Oh! And then we start to tell her about Lisa McPherson, you know. You know, I think we went ape shit, you know? We did the whole number. And, eventually something clicked. She goes, "Oh my God…Oh my God, yeah!"

Stacy: Really?

Lawrence: Eventually, just at a point in time, something…like, her expression changed. And she's going, "Oh my God! Yeah!"

Stacy: She's listening.

Lawrence: "Bad things have happened to me, you know?"

Stacy: Oh.

Lawrence: And suddenly, I think, "We're through!" And she goes, "I want to leave but I'm going back to handle it." And I go, "Zoë, don't go back. Okay, now we've brought you to this realization. Don't go back. Who cares? You know, who cares what your mother…" But she said, "My mother is old and she's sick and she smokes. And I can't just leave her. My grandmother is 78." And then, so she stays a few more days but she wants to go back. We can't get through…we can't do the final hurdle. You know, we take her to the airport and we're standing at the airport, the departure gate saying, "Zoë, you don't have to go back even now," but she goes. But she says, "I'm going to be back in two months. I'm going to be back."

Stacy: But you had gotten through.

Lawrence: We had gotten through. We had definitely gotten through. So then anyway, the next few months are agony. She's, like, on the phone crying. She's, like, not going to school. She's hanging out all day at the Clearwater library. She's moved out of the Cadets to her mother's bedroom, sleeps on the floor so her mother can watch her. It's horrendous. And they're coercing her. And it's…she finishes one thing. "Now, you need sec check, Zoë." And so, she's on the phone crying, she speaks to Astra. And Astra says, "Why doesn't Dad just come and get you?" And Zoë, you know, she wrote the whole essay about this. You know the circumstances. Zoë says, "Okay!" And so then…

Stacy: What did Astra do?

Lawrence: Astra is on the phone with her saying, "Dad! Dad! Zoë says come and get her!" (interviewer laughs) And we're, like, dancing around the room! (laugh) And then Astra's on the internet booking flights. And then lo and behold, suddenly Leslie calls and says, "Good news! I'm arriving in L.A."

Stacy: Oh, no!

Lawrence: And, we're going, "Oh my God." (interviewer laughs) This is just, like…this is…and she says, "I'm going to see my granddaughter for the first time ever." And, oh, we're going, "Oh my God." But we trick Leslie. We say, "Oh, Leslie," you know, "Zoë has got some of my suitcases for a business trip. Can you bring them to L.A. because," you know, "because we don't have enough suitcases." Can you bring them empty to L.A. for us? Because I need them to take back to…" Zoë's got all her stuff in cardboard boxes that she's been stashing away.

Stacy: So she needs suitcases!

Lawrence: "I need those suitcases back." So we trick Leslie, the Sea Org Member Class 12 trainee, brings us the suitcases! (interviewer laughs)

Stacy: Oh, no!

Lawrence: And I think, like, this is so cool! (interviewer laughs) We're getting Leslie to help her daughter blow. And we just love it! We just love it! We think it's so cool! We are killing ourselves. (interviewer laughs) We just…we just think that is the coolest thing that Leslie is helping us. And anyway, so I fly to Clearwater. I rent a car. It goes great, you know? Zoë is, like, I don't know where her mind is at…I don't even care. All I want to do is get her on the plane and get her out of there! She's, like, she's like…

Stacy: Scared to death?

Lawrence: Scared to death! And she's, like, "Dad! Dad! Duck down in the car! Because of the security cameras!" And I'm going, "Zoë, I have to drive." (interviewer laughs) And the cardboard box breaks and all the clothes spill in this alleyway. And we are picking them up and running to the car and stuffing them in the suitcases (interviewer laughs). So we get the hell out of there, you know. And the rest is history.

Stacy: Incredible!

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