Transcript of Part Four

Lawrence: At this point, I had run into problems…I still, you know, the Visa that they gave me for one year had expired and I could only be in the United States as a tourist. But then I found out that, you know, I could no longer be a missionary. I had been back to London and they had refused to renew it. But I found I could come in as a tourist, which I did. And then I found that if, you know, a professional person, like an architect, engineer, who would be of, like, value in America, could get what's called like an H1 work permit to work for, like, an architect. So, I was happy to move to Los Angeles because I thought I'd have a great chance at getting a job. Even though I didn't have my architectural license in California.

Stacy: Now, did you have to leave staff because…

Lawrence: Yes. I…they gave me, like, a one…because then I started to run up attorney bills to try and get my Visa handled. And, you know, I started to get debts. So, you know, people in the Sea Org aren't allowed to have debts because that could pull them out of it. So they gave me a one year leave of absence to handle those debts. Earn money and…

Stacy: Handle your Visa situation.

Lawrence: Handle my Visa situation. So then I worked for, like, an architect in Los Angeles. But on Church projects. After a few months, the Church actually pulled the plug on this guy because they discovered that, you know, they no longer wanted to employ him. So, at that point, I worked for like a non-Scientology architect in Los Angeles on, like, restaurant projects mostly. And then he sponsored me to get a green card, you know, which is, like, takes three to four years and costs, like, five or six thousand dollars. It's a big deal. And…but that enabled, you know, the Church liked that because then I could get green cards for my wife, who remained in the Sea Org and for my three children, all got their green cards because I got a green card. Even though I was working for, like, a non-Scientology architectural practice. So then I worked in Los Angeles…by this time, you know, with my experiences on the Freewinds and with the, you know, I was getting very disillusioned with Scientology and really kind of like after I had left the organization in London, lost interest in it, you know? And, you know, decided that their policies, you know, I no longer…they weren't apparent to me. But, by this point, my wife had persuaded and worked on…persuaded my daughter, Astra, who was then…this would have been, you know, now we've jumped some years and we're in the 90s, you know. I'm working in Los Angeles as an architect. I'm no longer interested in doing Scientology courses. But I'm pretending to be a Scientologist because…

Stacy: Why?

Lawrence: Because it reached the point with my wife, Leslie, where, you know, I was no longer willing to go back in the Sea Organization. And she said, "If you're not willing to handle your Visa, which is, like, your fault and go back in the Sea Organization, then I want a divorce." So, you know, she was such a dedicated Sea Organization Member and I really didn't want to do it. So, I said, "Fine. Let's get a divorce." And she said, "I'm taking the children and you are not going to see them again." Even though, in her eyes, I was still willing to be a Scientologist.

Stacy: But legally, she's not…she can't do that.

Lawrence: Legally she can't. In actual fact…

Stacy: And you could take her to court and…

Lawrence: Yes. Yeah. And I would have done it. But, in actual fact, she overstepped the line and even her (sounds like) seemies in the Church said, "Leslie, you actually cannot do that. You're even stepping beyond our policy." You know, "He has to have access to his children." You know, "He is no longer in the Sea Org but he's still being a Scientologist so he's cool, you know? He can see the children." But, you know, so they lived with me for a brief period of time. But then Leslie persuaded Astra to join the…it's called the Flag Liaison Office, which is part of the Church of Scientology in…

Stacy: But how old was she?

Lawrence: She was fourteen.

Stacy: You are now working at a non-Scientology architecture company?

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: And you have some money…

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: And you have an apartment.

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: And you have a real life.

Lawrence: Right.

Stacy: Whereas the mother is living in a room. She has children who are not even living with her.

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: You could have gone to court and gotten custody of these children. Why didn't you try to do that?

Lawrence: Well, one of the main policies of Scientology that I have a problem with is, like, if any Scientologist takes legal action or attempts to sue or gain custody or even divorce another Scientologist…especially a Sea Org Member, without permission from the organization-which is never or very rarely granted-that person has committed a suppressive act and will be declared a Suppressive Person. Now then that means…it goes back to the thing in London, you know, the thing of, like Scientology I knew would break up families and they had a history of that. And I knew there was a disconnection, you know. That, like, if you have a problem with a family member or-disconnect! So, in other words, you know, if I then started to sue for custody of my children, the Church would say, "Here's a Suppressive Person. He can have no contact with his children."

Stacy: But what I'm saying is, a court…you could have gone to court and gotten a court order that would override the Scientology disconnection policy.

Lawrence: But by this point, see, even if it overrode it, you know, around Los Angeles, they have secret locations. You know, my daughter was living in Sea Org accommodation.

Stacy: Were you afraid that they would actually take your children? And that they would just disappear?

Lawrence: Yes. I thought they would just disappear. And, even if I had a court order or a piece of paper, I wouldn't even know where they were. And, you know, I would say, "I have this court order to see my daughter." And they'll say, "Well, she's actually at a secret location and she doesn't want to see you." So, you know, I really didn't know. I thought the best way to play it was to, like, pretend to be a Scientologist and just have access to my daughters. And then, with my knowledge of the Church that I gain by them, work on ways to get them out, you know?

Stacy: Um-hmm.

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