Transcript of Part Three

Stacy: So, you're not making any money?

Maria Pia: No. I'm spending money.

Stacy: You're spending money.

Maria Pia: Yeah. I'm spending money.

Stacy: Nobody's paying you…

Maria Pia: No.

Stacy: …for any of this work that you do?

Maria Pia: Yeah, they were paying me $9.00 a week when I was in the CLO.

Stacy: Is this how much all the staff at that organization were getting paid a week, $9.00?

Maria Pia: Yeah. So, I started OT-6 and when I arrived in the course room, I start to read about BT's and body thetans and cumulated bits called clusters and all the kinds of things. I went nuts! I say, "What is this?" He says, "Another kind!" (interviewer laughs) I say, "How many kinds of body thetans are there? Tell me! Tell me when I have to find new PC's to audit." (interviewer laughs)

Stacy: What kind was this?

Maria Pia: The same as OT-5.

Stacy: They were asleep on OT-5 and now they're awake?

Maria Pia: No, no. They are the same. We don't know if they were asleep, awake or looking at movies. (interviewer laughs) What I can tell you is the same thing. You ask, "What are you? Who are you?"

Stacy: Only this time, you're there by yourself.

Maria Pia: Yeah. You do it by yourself.

Stacy: There's no auditor there? You're holding both the cans in one hand.

Maria Pia: There's no auditor. Both the cans.

Stacy: Solo auditing.

Maria Pia: Meanwhile, I was auditing OT-6, I started the briefing course. I did the briefing course.

Stacy: Okay. Now, the briefing course is…

Maria Pia: Classic!

Stacy: …the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course. This is the big, important auditing course that takes months to do.

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: Lots of tapes to listen to.

Maria Pia: 350 tapes, yeah.

Stacy: 350 tapes to listen to.

Maria Pia: And I did it in English. There's no briefing course in Italian. There wasn't at the time.

Stacy: Right. These are all L. Ron Hubbard talking, giving lectures.

Maria Pia: I did OT-6. I said, "Now! They are gone!"

Stacy: No more BT's! (laughs)

Maria Pia: No more BT's until OT-7!

Stacy: Now, you get on to OT-7 and now you find there's more BT's?

Maria Pia: This is a comedy like OT-7. You know, they have people, like body guards, they bring you from one side to the other. If you have to go outside the building because you have the folder, the solo folder, they have security out of the door. That's like a comedy, a Spielberg movie.

Stacy: They have guards posted?

Maria Pia: They have plenty of guards and they have rifles!

Stacy: They have rifles???!

Maria Pia: Yes.

Stacy: Armed guards??

Maria Pia: Yeah. They have it in the Fort Harrison.

Stacy: Yeesh!
Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. I went to do OT-7 and I said, "There are more!" (interviewer laughs) So, what we ask them this time, the same think like OT-6, I say, "Why don't you do them all together? 6, 7, 8 or everything?" If they divide it in three, they get three times the money. That's the joke! You know, I tell you, one day I was in a room in the Sandcastle, for OT-7…

Stacy: The hotel where people go in Clearwater.

Maria Pia: Yeah. When you bring your folder, you carry your folder. You finish the session, you have to bring the folder from every session to the CS, the case supervisor. It is very confidential so you have your briefcase locked and attached to your wrist with a chain.

Stacy: The briefcase is attached to your wrist with a chain?

Maria Pia: Yeah. I will show you the picture, it's nice. And I didn't want to go in the street with, like, if I was jailed. So, I said, "I'll take a room there." It was less expensive also because it was the old Sandcastle with mice, rats, cockroaches. We had…you are never alone in the bedroom. (interviewer laughs) That was nice. I remember once I was in session with bare feet doing OT-7 and I felt something on my feet. I looked, like that, there was a mouse on my feet! (interviewer laughs) I got a lot of reads on that E-meter! I was auditing the mouse BT's. Then I finished OT-7. That, you know, I was there since April I stayed until January.

Stacy: But now, you did OT-7 in less than a year?

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: Aren't there people that have been on OT-7 for up to 15 years?

Maria Pia: It depends on how much money they have. That depends from the money.

Stacy: Is that really what you think it depends on?

Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. For a month and a half, I did almost 800 hours, let's say 700 and something.

Stacy: You're sitting there for 800 hours?

Maria Pia: Day and night because I was allowed to audit also during the night. I had a set up in my room. I had a coffee machine. I had yogurt. I had everything. If I wake up in the night, I was taking a yogurt, making coffee, and audit!

Stacy: So you sat there for 800 hours auditing BT's?

Maria Pia: Yeah. I don't know what I was auditing!

Stacy: What do you think you were doing now, looking back on it?

Maria Pia: I was thinking. I was thinking and thinking. When my father was dead. You know, you think about death and you get reads. Because the nervous system is reading on the meter.

Stacy: So, you get a read. You go, "Okay. Good. There's another BT."

Maria Pia: Oh. There's another. I got it.

Stacy: You get anything on the meter…

Maria Pia: And then you start to ask him, "Who are you? What are you? A banana. Who are you? Your father. Okay. Thank you." Blow.

Stacy: Looking back on it now, do you think there is such a thing as a body thetan?

Maria Pia: It was a comedy. No. There's no such thing. You are probably getting into your unconscious level and you'll get, staying on that chair, I got a lot of body motion of nerves. Reaction of body itching or headache. Ahh! That's a BT! Must be that! I have a headache! That's because you believe. You believe in something. You want to believe. You pay so much that you want…it must be true!

Stacy: You pay so much money…

Maria Pia: You want to believe it! So, I attested to Class 6. I went on Class 6 internship.

Stacy: So, now you finished OT-7?

Maria Pia: No. No, I was auditing on OT-7. You know, at the beginning, I was auditing a lot. Then I was sick and tired of it. So, I started to have two, three hours between the sessions. So, they put me in the Class 6 internship. I was auditing public, paid public of Flag!

Stacy: Okay. Now, I'm sorry to keep saying this but isn't that against the policies of Scientology?

Maria Pia: Sure. Yeah.

Stacy: You're not supposed to be auditing public paying people on an internship.

Maria Pia: No. For three reasons: first, I was another org, Sea Org member; second, I was a paying public here; third, you are not supposed to audit, per policy, paid public during the internship. You do co-audit with students that are in the internship with you.

Stacy: Did you ever bring this up to the intern supervisor?

Maria Pia: Yes. Yes. You know, but it was like I'm a Flag auditor. It was, like, "Ha Ha! I'm a Flag auditor!"

Stacy: You're paying them to let them make money off your work?

Maria Pia: Yes.

Stacy: This a very smart organization, isn't it?

Maria Pia: It wouldn't have all those buildings, all that bullshit they have around like the Hollywood Boulevard Building, like the Fort Harrison, like the Clearwater. Who do you think paid for all that? People like me! There's plenty of people like me. And the 15th or 22nd of January, I attested to OT-7. At that point, I remember the ethics officer for staff, he called me and said, "Okay, Maria Pia. Now, you are OT-7, full Class 6 auditor. From now, you are a Flag staff member." I said, "Wait a moment. They have a contract signed in Italy." So, I don't know what they did behind my back. The contract was sent to Flag. They sent another poor girl to Italy that was totally…

Stacy: You mean to replace you?

Maria Pia: Yeah. My replacement was on the _____________ five months! She's no longer there since years. I say, "I need to go at least one month to Italy. I need to go to the CLO. I don't know. Did the CLO declare that I left without telling anything?" I arrived to the CLO in Italy. Listen, Stacy, I was transparent.

Stacy: You were what?

Maria Pia: Transparent. Everybody would say, "Good morning."

Stacy: Invisible.

Maria Pia: Invisible. They were looking through me, like that.

Stacy: Why?

Maria Pia: Because, "Oh, you blew the CLO! You went…" "No!" I say, "Wait a moment! You accepted that I stay at Flag."

Stacy: They approved it!

Maria Pia: They approved. Anyway, I went home. I packed my luggage. I saw my daughter, my granddaughter, my mom. I paid for my flight. I came back to Flag. I arrive, I say, "Here I am. Very happy I'm in Florida." And they say, "You know, we have a problem." I say, "What problem?" They say, "Okay. In the Hacienda," the Hacienda here is a place where the crew and the staff members live.

Stacy: The Hacienda is a motel.

Maria Pia: It's not a motel. It's a lot of buildings.

Stacy: An apartment building.

Maria Pia: Apartment building and all the staff members from Fort Harrison and Sandcastle live there.

Stacy: And they call it the Hacienda.

Maria Pia: There are Hacienda and QI.

Stacy: QI - the Quality Inn, right?

Maria Pia: The staff members and their children. In the Hacienda, there are staff members that have no children.

Stacy: Okay. So, the Quality Inn. They call the QI.

Maria Pia: The QI.

Stacy: And that's where the staff live with their children.

Maria Pia: That's a big place that's like the Hacienda.

Stacy: And the Hacienda is what?

Maria Pia: Now, they tell me the Hacienda is marvelous. They remake everything. They spent a lot of money to re-do everything. At that time, it was a pig place. (interviewer laughs)

Stacy: A pig sty!

Maria Pia: I wouldn't have put my pig inside there! I didn't know the Hacienda. I haven't seen the Hacienda. So, I say, "Okay. But where do I go to sleep?" They say, "You know, we will renovate Sandcastle as soon as we have some spare rooms that are free. We'll give you a room in Sandcastle." So, I arrive to Sandcastle with my suitcases. I enter the room…there was no bed! I said, "Where do I sleep on the carpet?" They say, "Oh God. They already threw the beds away because they had to do work to renovate all that." The first night I slept on the carpet. So, I went out and bought a bed and mattress, sheets, blankets, everything.

Stacy: If you're in the Sea Organization at Flag, you are supposed to be provided a bed!

Maria Pia: Yeah, but there were no beds. What was I to do? To take a flight and leave?

Stacy: Did somebody say, "No. We don't have any beds for you?"

Maria Pia: There's no bed! We will bring me to see a bed. The bed was large like this, 80 centimeters, and it was falling apart. And the mattress, you have to see the mattress. It was so dirty! And it smelled so bad. I said, "You want to give me that bed? Wait a moment. I take my shower every morning. I can't do that." So, I went out. I bought a bed, a night table. I bought something to put my things inside, a chair, an armchair. I made a nice white room, white and pink. Surprise! Surprise! After one week, arrived the bill to pay.

Stacy: You?

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: What do you mean?

Maria Pia: I had to pay for the room!

Stacy: They're charging you for the room?

Maria Pia: Yes!

Stacy: The room where you just bought the bed?

Maria Pia: Yes!

Stacy: Why?

Maria Pia: I was, like, crazy! And the CO at Sandcastle said, "That's their order, you know, you are occupying a public room." I say, "Yes. A public empty room!"

Stacy: Unbelievable!

Maria Pia: So, we arrive to an agreement. I pay a bit less than half of the price.

Stacy: So, you're now paying them to work for them?

Maria Pia: Yes. In the meantime, I will be Class 9, Class 9 internship, Class 9 CS (Case Supervisor)…

Stacy: Auditing for them?

Maria Pia: And auditing public and during the study time, I was doing Class 4, 6, 9 CS internship. I start to CS. I was auditing and CS'ing. At a certain point, I said, "That's it. I leave for Italy. I cannot go on paying here. What is this?"

Stacy: It's insane!

Maria Pia: It's my own furniture and I pay? (interviewer laughs) I went to the Captain. At that point, the Captain was Debbie Cook. When I arrived at Flag, the Captain was Ron Norton. Ron Norton was posted in Golden Era…

Stacy: Now, Golden Era is Gold, which is outside of Los Angeles.

Maria Pia: Gold, yeah. Yeah. And the new Captain was Debbie Cook. So I went to her straight after a staff muster. I said, "Okay. I leave." "No. No. Now, there is a place for you in the Hacienda!" I arrived to the Hacienda. I can tell you, Stacy. Oh, the first time I saw the Hacienda. They open an apartment door, they open another door. There was a bedroom with eight beds. Three, three and two under a window. I was like this (indicating). The smell was all this, you know, in summer with the hot of Florida, the shoes! Tennis shoes and sport shoes! I turned to the guy, I said, "No way do I stay here!" He said, "Oh, you go in ethics!" "No, no. I'm going to the airport. You misunderstood that. I don't go in ethics. I go to the airport straight with the uniform! I go!" (interviewer laughs) Okay. So, they called me into the ethics. They made me write O/W's, overts and withholds.

Stacy: Okay. So, now you got sent to the ethics officer because now you're being told you're doing something unethical because you're refusing to move into this room with eight people?

Maria Pia: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: And they're telling you that you need to write up your overts and withholds? Why would you have to write up overts and withholds?

Maria Pia: Because a Sea Org member must stay in a Sea Org berthing so that a Sea Org member can be treated like a piece of shit! But you know, Stacy, that most of the Sea Org members are young people. And they arrive in the Sea Org. You know why? Because they don't have a place to sleep or soup to eat.

Stacy: So, they don't have a choice?

Maria Pia: They go there because they don't have one penny in their pocket. There are staff members that have money like Oscar Saldiaga and his wife. They lived in two cabanas in ______________.

Stacy: They were staff?

Maria Pia: Yeah, sure. Oscar Saldiaga and his wife. Also the daughter is Pilar Saldiaga is a CMO, Commodore Messenger staff.

Stacy: So, did you go to the ethics officer or did you go to the airport?

Maria Pia: I went to the ethics officer. I said, "I go." He said, "No, you write O/W's." "You are crazy! I go! Bye bye!" You know, Debbie Cook was just posted. To lose a Class 9 auditor and CS OT-7 for her it wasn't…

Stacy: Unacceptable.

Maria Pia: It wasn't healthy. It wasn't healthy.

Stacy: Wasn't healthy, that's right. (laughs)

Maria Pia: Wasn't healthy. Absolutely. So, she said, "You know, we have in the Hacienda, five or six apartments that we rent to public. They are small apartments that public can rent when public comes here for long, long periods to do briefing course. You can have one of those. You are in the Hacienda. You're not out of the Sea Org berthing." I say, "Yes. Okay. Let's go." "There are not a lot of furnishings." I say, "I have my furniture. I have a bedroom." So, they send a truck to take my things. I was paying for that, $450 a month.

Stacy: So, now you're paying for an apartment at the Hacienda?

Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. I had two bedrooms, a little bathroom, a little living room and a kitchen. No, it was not yet Debbie Cook. It was Ron Norton still. Debbie Cook arrived after one week I moved in the condo. I was alone for seven days in that apartment. After 7 days, we were six in the apartment.

Stacy: They started moving other people into your apartment?

Maria Pia: They moved the public and staff in my apartment.

Stacy: But you're not still having to pay for it after that?

Maria Pia: No. Before was my D of P, Maria, was an Italian. I was happy. She said, "I will give you $50 a month." And I said, "Leave this $50, you buy your food and…" We had a huge friendship. And we had everything inside. Since they started with the staff member in my apartment, every night I arrived and the fridge was empty! (interviewer laughs) There was nothing! Not even a bottle of water to drink! So, I said, "That's it. The end!" I didn't really want to go back to Italy. My daughter came with her husband to visit me for one week. She was OT-7, my daughter, before me. And so I went to a friend that was a realtor and I say, "Find me a condo."

Stacy: A condominium.

Maria Pia: Yeah. He found me one. He found a nice apartment in Island Estates where I could stay. Two bedrooms, two bathrooms. And I bought it! And on one Saturday when nobody was there in the Hacienda, I took a truck and I transferred everything in it.

Part One xPart TwoxxPart Three xPart Four xPart Five xPart Six