Transcript of Part Two

Maria: I went to the CLO to do the product zero.

Stacy: Product zero is a preparation for becoming a Sea Org member.

Maria Pia: Yeah. I don't know how you can prepare someone to become a Sea Org member by washing plates and cleaning toilets!

Stacy: Is that what you were doing?

Maria Pia: Yeah. From 7:00 in the morning, I was in the kitchen for 70 people, to cook for 70 people. And I was dead tired, you know? We went to bed at midnight and a half; at 6:00, get up because at 7:00 the breakfast must be ready for the staff members. I went to my car and I went back to Rome without telling anybody.

Stacy: So you decided to leave?

Maria Pia: They were looking for me around and they tried to call my house in Rome and they found me there. I said, "That's it. I've done enough for me."

Stacy: At that point, you were ready to be done with Scientology?

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: Well, how did they get you back?

Maria Pia: They came to Rome to convince me to come back to the CLO. They were sleeping on the carpets! I didn't have so much place, so much bedroom, so many bedrooms. I say, "No more plate washing? No more toilet cleaning?" They say, "No, you attest that you finished at that moment." I said, "But I've done two weeks. I'm supposed to stay a month and a half, two months." "No, no. It's done. You are okay. Because you are an auditor. We put you to audit stuff. That would be a product zero, to audit stuff." At that point, the senior case supervisor, Italy, that was on OT-7, decided that it was good to have me as a qual sec, qualification sec, for Italy because I was the most trained there. Me and her were the only two.

Stacy: Qualifications secretary is a pretty high level technical post.

Maria Pia: Yes. It's the highest technical post in the country.

Stacy: And you have to be at some OT level?

Maria Pia A trained auditor, cramming officer. I did all the cramming officer. So, they decided it would be nice if I would be OT. So, "Maria, you have to buy your OT levels."

Stacy: Wait a minute. What you mean you have to buy them? You're in the Sea Org.

Maria Pia: Yes, but…

Stacy: It's part of your job. Why would you have to buy them?

Maria Pia: I had, under me in the CLO Italy, stuff that were Scientologists for 18 years! They weren't yet clear! I wasn't 20 years old! I was 50!

Stacy: But I mean, it is not the policy of Scientology for someone to have to pay for their auditing if they are a staff member.

Maria Pia: In '98, I was in Scientology. I think I've seen applied policy once or twice. Policy are for stupid people that read it.

Stacy: You mean people who think it's being applied?

Maria Pia: Yes. Mm-hmm. So, they sent me to Copenhagen again.

Stacy: And you paid for your OT levels.

Maria Pia: I paid for OT-1, OT-2 and OT-3. I arrived in Copenhagen. They were very happy. They put me imMediately on the chair to audit.

Stacy: So, now you've gone to Copenhagen to get your OT levels but now you're auditing people that have paid for auditing?

Maria Pia: Sure.

Stacy: So, you're working for them?

Maria Pia: Yeah, I was a Sea Org member. So, in the morning, I was studying for the OT levels and getting audited because, you know, the eligibility and being a Sea Org member, security check, security check, security check, like, if I have killed somebody!

Stacy: And eligibility is a series of security checks that you have to have.

Maria Pia: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: They are security checking you to make sure that you don't have any crimes before you go on to your OT levels.

Maria Pia: Because it is very confidential material. They will not disclose that material to you. And in the afternoon from 3:00 until night, I was auditing public.

Stacy: Until the end of the evening, you were auditing?

Maria Pia: Public.

Stacy: Public. PC's.

Maria Pia: So it took me much longer to do OT levels.

Stacy: Were you also paying for your hotel?

Maria Pia: Yeah. I was paying for my food. I was paying for my hotel. I was paying for everything.

Stacy: Okay.

Maria Pia: Because I was a Sea Org member from another org so they told me, "We are not supposed to feed you."

Stacy: But your org is supposed to pay for your meals and your accommodations. But your org didn't have the money, so you paid for it?

Maria Pia: They had the money. I did OT-1.

Stacy: What was that like?

Maria Pia: Oh, God. I read the, you know, it's a small…you have done it. It's a small thing, OT-1. And they say, "Okay. Now, go out, walk around and expand yourself. Find somebody that you put your attention on. Look at the them and you have to get expanded." I said, "What does it mean?" (interviewer laughs) I went in a coffee shop, I took a coffee. I say, because they say, "Stay a couple of hours." Well, what was I going to do for a couple of hours at this end of Copenhagen?

Stacy: Just sit and have some coffee!

Maria Pia: Yeah. So, I go to have coffee and I came back and they say, "Okay. You can go to attest to EP of OT-1. (interviewer laughs) "How do you feel?" "Very good!" I said.

Stacy: Why did you say that?

Maria Pia: Because I don't want to go back and walk out there for two hours in Copenhagen. (interviewer laughs) I also went shopping. I bought a pair of shoes.

Stacy: Well, that always makes me feel expanded…shopping.

Maria Pia: Yeah. If I want to expand, I shop! (interviewer laughs) But, you know, inside myself, I felt like I was doing something wrong.

Stacy: What do you mean?

Maria Pia: When I came back, I felt exactly as I felt when I went out!

Stacy: Why didn't you tell them that?

Maria Pia: I asked for an interview. And I told to this lady, I said, "Listen, something must be wrong with me. I feel like a piece of stone. Because maybe I don't understand but that's difficult. You know I'm a good student. I've done university. I graduated language. I've graduated the first part of medicine. So, I'm not somebody that…How come I don't understand here?" They say, "Ah. You have to go on. Two and Three will disclose you the world!"

Stacy: So, in other words, you told the interviewer that you didn't feel any different after OT-1?

Maria Pia: They say you have to go to OT-3.

Stacy: And she said go ahead and attest anyway and move on to OT-1I?

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: So, she knew that you hadn't made any changes on OT-1?

Maria Pia: They do that to everybody, you know? I saw faces like that…

Stacy: But don't you pay for OT-1?

Maria Pia: Yes.

Stacy: And they know it doesn't do anything?

Maria Pia: They will keep me there for three years. So, I went to OT-2. I see it is the first real OT level. In the course room, I went to the supervisor and I say, "Listen, explain to me what is written here." He said, "It is in Italian. Can't you read it?" (interviewer laughs) "Yes. But I don't understand."

Stacy: Because OT-2 basically says that you have lots of implants…

Maria Pia: Implants.

Stacy: …in your head.

Maria Pia: Electric implants.

Stacy: And these are all from millions of years ago.

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: Thousands, hundreds of thousands…

Maria Pia: Yeah. Billions of years ago! And you have to get rid of all those implants.

Stacy: Yeah. You're given a series of sheets.

Maria Pia: Sheets and you have to go through those sheets and the implant that reads, you have to take it and start to…

Stacy: You say it over and over again?

(both talking at once)

Stacy: And you say these things over and over until…

Maria Pia: Over and over until…

Stacy: …something happens.

Maria Pia: Or you get so sick that you close the meter and you go. (interviewer laughs) So, I started auditing OT-2, my needle on the E-meter was like this (indicating). In Copenhagen, they have small auditing rooms, one near the other. So, I was hearing people yelling in the other room. I was laughing. I say, "What do I do with this meter? It's at the moment…

Stacy: They're yelling to try to get the meter to read…

(both talking at once)

Maria Pia: To get the meter to read. I start to do the same and the meter was (makes noise). It started to read, I'd say, "Okay…"

Stacy: Yeah, exactly.

Maria Pia: I'd go, "The implant!" OT-2 was five sessions, I think. Three, four sessions, I don't remember. It was two days.

Stacy: Were you ever to find that light that they talk about?

Maria Pia: Ah! That light! You remember?

Stacy: Yeah.

Maria Pia: There's a light that you have to find. The room was totally black! Black walls, painted black walls. I had this light, it was on the E-meter like that (indicating) and I was looking to look for that light.

Stacy: The light that is supposed to be in the implants?

Maria Pia: The implants. Have you ever found it? I never found it! I told the CS, "There's no light! There's an elephant!" Because there was a circus near the auditing room so we heard the elephant screaming. (interviewer laughs)

Stacy: But no light.

Maria Pia: But no light. So, they sent me back in session and said, "We have to see." And look, there's this medicine. When you fix something at a certain moment and you fix without moving your eyes, that certain moment, you start to see some spots. That's the nervous system. That's not the light of the implant. Nothing to do with the light of the implant." So, I saw that light.

Stacy: By fixing your attention…

Maria Pia: By looking at the wall in front. So, I attested to OT-2.

Stacy: So, you turned in your folder to the CS and said…

Maria Pia: "I think I'm done."

Stacy: What's supposed to happen when you finish OT-2? I don't remember.

Maria Pia You get rid of all the implants of the track.

Stacy: Are you supposed to have any new realization or anything?

Maria Pia: Yeah. Your track is free from implants. That's the EP of OT-2. So, I went in the course room of OT-3. I was so happy! I say, "Now, they tell me the wall of fire! I will find something great!"

Stacy: The secrets of the universe!

Maria Pia: There was a guy near me in Copenhagen and when he read the OT-3, he fell down on the floor. I said, "Oh what is that?!" So, I put it there and I started to read then I went through it again. Because LRH said the more time you go through it, the more you understand. I read it five times and I was telling God, "I know that data. I'm sure I know that data already."

Stacy: Okay. Now, you're talking about the story about…

Maria Pia: About the vulcanon.

Stacy: 75 million years ago, a galactic overlord…

Maria Pia: The legend of the space there, the loyal officer.

Stacy: They gathered all the people up in planes…

Maria Pia: All the people up together and…

Stacy: …and shipped them to the volcanoes.

Maria Pia: Shipped them to the volcanoes. There's the…I don't know in English how you call this…

Stacy: The electronic strip and you got all the implants.

Maria Pia: Electronic strip that goes up and down like the stairs.

Stacy: Wavy.

Maria Pia: Yeah. Well, I was sure, because LRH talked about past lives, etcetera. I said, "But this is impossible! I'm too old to have done this in a past life!"

Stacy: So, this material is sounding familiar to you?

Maria Pia: Very familiar. I'm a reader of science fiction. I have more than 200 books of science fiction at home. One of them is the Legend of Space. Go there, and you will find the same electronic thing. And you will find the electronic trapping of volcano.

Stacy: So, this story had been written by somebody else?

Maria Pia: All of what LRH wrote is written by somebody else! By Buhddism, by Koran, by science fiction…

Stacy: By the Koran, yeah.

Maria Pia: The Koran. But when you start to say that your body is made up…

Stacy: Of these body thetans.

Maria Pia: Of these body thetans, all of my body was itching! It was like have an illness. I was starting to move on the chair! It wasn't real to me that my body was made by body thetans. That so many people were with me. And you remember there's a part that says, "When you go in a place that you are sure you've never been there, but because a body thetan that is with you was there." So, I started to remember, yes, once I was in Austria with my father. I was sure that I had already been there. Maybe it was a body thetan. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are body thetans. So, okay. I finished the course and I went to the auditing and the needle was stuck there.

Stacy: Well, the needle is supposed to read…

Maria Pia: The needle is supposed to move when you find the body thetan and you try to talk to him.

Stacy: You're supposed to, yeah, it reads when you talk to the BT.

Maria Pia: It's supposed to read. It was like that, impossible to move it. When I start to become angry, when I start to say, "I'm a piece of stone. It's my fault. I'm different from the others. What happened with me?" I was so angry that the needle started to read like crazy! They said, "Oh, I found all the body thetans!" After, when I left Scientology, I realized opening… I had a friend of mine-this is an engineer-opening the meter to look at it. It reacts on nervous sensation, on your nerves.

Stacy: Not on BT's.

Maria Pia: And on body sensations. If you feel bad, it's not a BT. There's no such thing as that. At the moment, I didn't know. I attested to OT-3. I was called by the Captain, the Commanding Officer in Copenhagen. He said, "No, you have to do OT-4 and OT5." And I said, "I don't have anything anymore to audit."

Stacy: You've already gotten rid of your own case because you're clear. Now, you've gotten rid of all your BT's, what else is there to do?

Maria Pia: After OT-3, no more BT's.

Stacy: There's nothing left, right.

Maria Pia: "You have to do OT-4, the OT drug rundown." I said, "I never took drugs." "Yeah, but you run the drugs in all the past lifetimes." So, I called my mother and said, "Send me the money for OT-4 and OT-5." My mother was sick and tired of this Scientology things.

Stacy: Did she try to tell you not to pay your money to this?

Maria Pia: Yeah! Oh! My mother called the police!

Stacy: She did?

Maria Pia: At home. I will tell you after. So she sent me the money and I went to OT-4 and when I read it, I said, "More BT's? More body thetans?" "Yes. Because those body thetans you cannot get rid of with OT-3. They are druggie."

Stacy: So, you're supposed to be done with your BT's on OT-3 but now you get on OT-4 and you find out that there's more BT's.

Maria Pia: Yeah. There's more BT's because they are druggie.

Stacy: So, you couldn't find them on OT-3.

Maria Pia: They are sleeping! So, you're on OT-4, you have to wake them up!

Stacy: Because of their drugs?

Maria Pia: Drugs. So, OT-4 is very fast, you know. In this lifetime, like they say, I never took more than aspirin or drink some glasses of whiskey. So what? I did my OT-4…

Stacy: So, you couldn't find a lot of other lifetimes of drugs, huh?

Maria Pia: No.

Stacy: Ah.

Maria Pia: I did my OT-4. I attested to my OT-4. I said, "Is that-that's it with BT's?" "Oh, yes!"

Stacy: Let me ask you something, Maria. OT-4 costs a certain amount of money?

Maria Pia: Yes.

Stacy: Whether you spend two minutes on it or fifty hours?

Maria Pia: It cost, at the time, it cost…so, let's see, like $3,000.

Stacy: So, you pay $3,000 to do OT-4.

Maria Pia: I did OT-4 in 25 minutes!

Stacy: But did you get any of the money back?

Maria Pia: No! That's…you pay for OT-4. If you do 25 minutes or 12 hours, that's paid.

Stacy: So, if you only take 25 minutes. It doesn't matter to…

Maria Pia: I asked them. I said, "Can I put that time on OT-5?" "No, that's OT-4 intensive. It's something different."

Stacy: So, you just lost that money?

Maria Pia: Yeah. And I started the eligibility for OT-5. I say, "I've done 25 eligibility until now."

Stacy: Now you're supposed to get more sec checks?

Maria Pia: Yeah! I say, "Why? I finished OT-4 today. I go on OT-5 tomorrow. Which crime do you think I can commit between tonight and tomorrow morning?" (interviewer laughs) So this time, the eligibility was a False Purpose Rundown the FPRD…

Stacy: Now, False Purpose Rundown is a particular type of security checking where they ask you…

Maria Pia: You look for the evil intention.

Stacy: Right. So, you're not only being sec checked for your crimes but then you're asked for the evil intention behind the crime?

Maria Pia: Yes. But wait a moment. Do you remember an HCOB meter reading of OT-3 and above? It's not always your evil intention! It can be a body thetan's evil intention.

Stacy: So, now are you being asked whose it is?

Maria Pia: Sure. And at that moment, I went crazy! I said, "What?? They are not gone?"

Stacy: (Laughing) I've still got more BT's?

Maria Pia: Can be some more that had evil intention. So, they did, went out with OT-3 but with the False Purpose Rundown…

Stacy: So, they haven't left on OT-3, they haven't left on OT-4. But maybe they'll leave on OT-5?

Maria Pia: They will never leave! They are not there!! So, okay, I arrive on OT-5. When I read the OT-5-OT-5 is audited by an auditor. It's…

Stacy: Now, this is New Era Dianetics for OT's? This is NOT's.

Maria Pia: Yes. NOTs. That was the one.

Stacy: But an auditor is auditing you on it?

Maria Pia: Yeah. It is not like auditing solo like OT-3 or OT-1. OT-4 and OT-5, there is an auditor auditing you.

Stacy: But now it turns out that OT-5 is all about finding more BT's.

Maria Pia: Sure and asking them, "What are you?" So you get answered, like, a banana; like a fish; like Napoleon; like…and "Who are you?"

Stacy: Like a toe?

Maria Pia: Like a toe. Like a plague. Like a bottle of water.

Stacy: Like an ear? A tooth?
Maria Pia: Yeah, like anything.

Stacy: Anything can be a…

Maria Pia: Anything! And then he asks, "Who are you?" And so, you come up with Napoleon; Jesus Christ. You come up with your mother, your father.

Stacy: Whatever.

Maria Pia: Whatever! But it's not their answer! It's you!

Stacy: But you're thinking, at the time, it's the BT telling you these things.

Maria Pia: Yeah. I was thinking in my head…I wasn't a hundred percent sure. But I was thinking if LRH says that, must be that! I saw people so happy around. I was happy too, you know? I was in Copenhagen having a good time; go in session, a lot of communication with my auditor. I thought, I got rid of all this garbage, okay. I attested to OT-5. Nothing more to do in Copenhagen. They couldn't reg me for anything because you cannot do OT-6 or OT-7 in Copenhagen. It's only…

Stacy: So, it's as far you can go in Copenhagen.

Maria Pia: Yeah. It's as far as I could go. So, they let me out. I went back…the 6th of December, there was a huge raid in Italy.

Stacy: What happened?

Maria Pia: The police, at 8:00 of the 6th of December in all the town where there were Scientology organizations, at 8:00, they went in the organization, they shut up all the organizations and…

Stacy: They shut them down?

Maria Pia: They shut them all down! They took all the folders, all the materials, everything! They shut down the CLO! Everything! So, they called me on the phone from Rome. "Oh, Maria. Please, please, please! Can we go in your house?"

Stacy: Did they mean to live or did they mean to set up their offices?

Maria Pia: No. To set up their offices in my house. So, to say no, I felt, like, you know, those guys in the middle of the street. I say, "Okay. Go." But I called my maid, I said, "Hey, no keys. You go there at 8:00 so they can open. And at 8:00 when you leave, they have to leave." But they never left! They were there at midnight, at 1:00! She didn't give them the key but they were inside. So, the people in the building started to call my mother. My mother was living in another town. "What's going on in your daughter's apartment? She's not there. They are people going up and down the whole night." I…I believe that somebody was sleeping there. They never told me but…

Stacy: They set up the whole CLO in your apartment?

Maria Pia: The whole Rome org.

Stacy: The whole Rome org!

Maria Pia: The CLO was in Milano.

Stacy: So, they had people coming in and out on course and things?

Maria Pia: I arrived from Copenhagen. I say, "Guys, out!" And I couldn't go to bed because, in my bedroom, there was the case supervisor with the ivory tower. The ivory tower is the room of the case supervisor.

Stacy: With PC folders all around?

Maria Pia: All around! (interviewer laughs) In the bathroom, they were auditing. Sitting on the toilet. It was like a comedy! So, they say, "But we don't have money!" So, I say, "Look for an apartment. I will, as a donation, to have you out of here, I pay two months rent for that apartment." And the org went!

Stacy: So, now you're renting the org an apartment.

Maria Pia: Yeah, for two months because the CLO Italy told me that they would give me back the money.

Stacy: And did they ever give you back the money?

Maria Pia: Never! That's a Scientology way to act. So, they were in one hotel and they started to cry, "There's no money." The poor staff members in CLO Italy, they never had something to eat. That was terrible, you know? Seeing the children of the staff members because there was a nursery in the CLO. And the children…I was out to buy milk and biscuits for those children. That was terrible! Really terrible! So, I had to rent an apartment and that was an apart hotel. I made the qualification office inside there, started to order the staff. We lost in the CLO, half the staff. They understood before me that was bullshit.

Stacy: Because the Italian government shut down the orgs for what? For fraud?

Maria Pia: There was a persecution, legal persecution…penal persecution. Staff were put in jail!

Stacy: What were the charges?

Maria Pia: The charges were burglary.

Stacy: In other words…

Maria Pia: Stealing money from the people.

Stacy: Fraud?

Maria Pia: Fraud. So imMediately someone from the management arrived from INT.

Stacy: Is that when Jesse came?

Maria Pia: Yeah.

Stacy: Jesse Prince.

Maria Pia: Jesse Prince. They looked like they are Rockefeller. They rent a hotel, a full hotel without one penny. The CLO had all the accounts blocked.

Stacy: So where did the money come from?

Maria Pia: It came from the public.

Stacy: They got donations?

Maria Pia: Donations. Donations from me, from everybody.

Stacy: How much did you donate to that?

Maria Pia: Well, the donation from me was to rent five bedrooms in this hotel, paying to make the qualification of is to make auditing room, to make the ivory tower for the CS like this and have them sleep inside at night. At that moment, the IC from Flag, from Clearwater, came to the hotel. And he said, "Guys, why don't you send Maria Pia to Flag to do OT-6 and OT-7?" So, I said, "Okay. If you want, I will go." They said, "Yes, but you have to buy your package." (interviewer laughs)

Stacy: How could you have to buy your package if you're…

Maria Pia: The problem was I didn't want to ask my mother for money. And I had spent so much money in this period. So, you know, I did the most stupid thing to do. I went to Rome and I sold my apartment.

Stacy: Oh, no! You did?
Maria Pia: I did. And I gave the money to pay OT-6 and OT-7.

Stacy: How much was that?

Maria Pia: It was $70,000 because of eligibility, because of this, that, and that. So, I arrived to Clearwater. I went to Fort Harrison. They presented me to Pare Amquist, that was my registrar. I say, "I don't need a registrar. Everything is paid. Berthing is paid. OT-6, 7 is paid. Seven intensives of eligibility and I don't know what else is paid."

Stacy: Seven intensives?

Maria Pia: Yes. But you know, when you are not in the course room, when you are in the auditing, you can approve your auditor abilities. Doing Class IX, Class VI but you can…

Stacy: But you're coming from Italy. If you're going to get training at Flag as a student from Italy…

Maria Pia: An org.

Stacy: …then your org in Italy is supposed to pay for your training. That's what the policy says.

Maria Pia: We already talked about policies.

Stacy: You're not supposed to…

Maria Pia: Toilet paper was the policies. They never used it.

Stacy: You're not supposed to have to pay for your own training.

Maria Pia: No. But I paid. And they would say, "But you are wealthy. You have money. So, help Scientology. Help Scientology." I was helping.

Stacy: So, they're basically telling you that it would be unethical for you not to pay for your own services since you have the money.

Maria Pia: They told me I was not a good Scientologist.

Stacy: If you didn't pay for your own services, it would mean you aren't a good Scientologist.

Maria Pia: Sure. I want to cry when I think of that.

Part One xPart TwoxxPart Three xPart Four xPart Five xPart Six