and Abby Lazarnick
conducted by Ed Hattaway
1 , 2001
of Part Two
Interviewer: What actually happened in your life after you
did all these services, these high priced consulting services
and things? And the auditing and the training. What actually
came about as compared to what was going on before you got
into the Church of Scientology?
What came about is we drained our bank account to zero. I
we had a $150,000 in the bank at that point
and time. I mean, just sitting there and accumulating interest.
I mean, we're putting $5,000 away per month and then the
only did we drain every penny from our bank account, every
penny, but we also were unable to put that $5,000 plus per
month into our bank account anymore. And that was going like
clockwork, like clockwork. And then things just went downhill.
We just started going downhill and downhill and downhill.
And we would try to find other ways of making money. We went
into some other things to make money. We tried to do more
practices with some other partners and stuff like that. But
everything just went down the drain! It was a
terrible experience from the time we did our L Rundowns. And
this is something that doctors should be aware of. That's
a very high priced ticket in Scientology and what they want
to do is they want to get doctors because they know doctors
have money. But at least they know doctors can get a hold
of money because of their credit line. And therefore, they
can pay for these high priced services. I'm talking $50,000
for three L's. Now, they're probably more than that! We're
going back a few years. So, they know doctors can do it so
they prey upon doctors. They prey upon big business men to
get ahead and do this and do this through the WISE organization
that I mentioned earlier. And they do this through a lot of
consulting groups, like chiropractic consulting groups or
dental consulting groups. There's a group called Sterling
and those people will introduce the L's, these L Rundowns
that are very expensive that Scientology offers, to tell the
doctor, "Hey, this will improve your life. You're going
to have a new life. You're never going to be introverted ever
again. You'll be able to communicate to anybody on any subject
forever. Don't worry about anything. You'll be able to fly
out of your body." I mean, all kinds of weird stuff.
And stuff that you would believe, not just crazy stuff but
stuff that made sense like communication and, you know, not
being introverted and things like that. And then you would
go ahead and do the service, pay $50,000 and go, "What
am I? An idiot? Am I stupid? I mean, I just did this thing.
I sat in front of somebody for three hours or six hours or
eight hours or ten hours? At different intervals, you know,
one hour here, two hours here, an hour here, and I just paid
$50,000 for this? Am I crazy?" You know, you start evaluating
yourself, trying to say, "Why did I just do that?"
And it was just a terrible time in my life! I mean, I just
remember that and I'm going back to that experience. And I'm
going, "What the heck was wrong with me?" I mean,
why would I pay that kind of money? And then I realized that
it was a very sophisticated registration and enrollment procedure
that got me to pay the money and it was that I wanted
wanted to be better! I didn't want to be an introvert. I wanted
to be able to communicate on all levels. I wanted to make
more money. I wanted to be happier. So, all these things culminated
and they are going, "Okay. Well, here's how you do it!
Just do these three L's and you'll be
I remember when Peter came home after doing the L's. It was
weird because the communication was off. It was, like, he
was two different people because, on the one hand, he knew
inside that he really hadn't gotten what he expected from
the L's. But on the other hand, he was trying to put forth
this façade, you know, that he did! It was like, "What's
wrong with me?"
We had just paid all that money, too! (laughs)
You know, it's like paying all this money, I should have gotten
something out of it! So, it was like he was trying to convince
That's exactly what it was!
that he really did. And quite honestly, when you ask,
you know, how it affected our lives, $150,000 in savings!
We're talking about college education for our kids! It got
to the point, you know, where we started other businesses
that all just
and one business was with somebody and
we did it because they were Scientologists thinking that this
is an ethical thing. And we totally, totally got taken there
That was Trim Lines. It was a diet center program.
to the tune of $50,000!
Again, the whole premise of you start this thing and it's
a whole system. And this is what you get with it. You didn't
get it! No one was ever available when you needed help, when
you had questions. But the bottom line is, what it finally
came to was a situation sitting in an attorney's office, talking
about filing bankruptcy. And that was definitely, for me
I was raised in a home where my dad worked three or four jobs,
he worked hard. The work ethic was great. You always paid
your bills. I am sitting in an office talking to a stranger
about the possibility of having to file bankruptcy because,
after working so hard for so many years, all of a sudden,
we did not have the money to pay our debts and did not know
where we were going to go. Because it was, like, each month,
it was getting deeper and deeper and deeper in debt. We weren't
getting out of debt. And that probably was the most embarrassing
situation for me. I mean, I just wanted to cry. I wanted to
crawl into a hole and I never wanted to come out again. And
that was rock bottom for me.
I would say for me, too. Really, I think the thing that really
hit the nail on the head, so to speak, was when we decided
to do a business and it was a network marketing business.
A great company called Nutrition of Life International. There
was a gentleman associated with the business by the name of
Kevin Trudeau. And because Kevin Trudeau had a memory study
course and that Nutrition of Life was also associated with
Nightingale Conan, which is a self improvement company that
would do self improvement tapes for many authors, Zig Ziglar,
Brian Tracy, Dennis Watley. You know, very famous authors.
Because there was an association with something besides Scientology
or besides what Hubbard wrote, then the Church told us that
we could not do this business! And, at that point, I just
said, "That's it. You can't tell me what business I'm
going to get into because you disagree with some of the management
technology that Brian Tracy teaches or that Kevin Trudeau
and his memory techniques teaches? You can't tell me that
I can't do this business!" And they said, "Oh, yes,
we can. And you'll be excommunicated," so to speak, "but
disassociated from the Church." I said, "Bye!"
But, at first, I really
I wanted to remain in good standing
with the Church so we wrote many letters. We were advising,
writing letters, what they call up-line to the hierarchy at
the Church. And we wrote ten letters. I still have copies
of the letters in my files. We wrote ten letters. We did not
get one response except from a lady by the name of Janet Light
from the IAS, the International Association of Scientologists,
and she said, "I'm sorry, Peter. There's nothing I can
do for you. You need to go ahead and get in touch with the
Complaint Group," which is a WISE organization that was
complaining, the WISE organization or the business Hubbard
Technology portion that was complaining that we were doing
these things. And the local church here, the local Scientology
Church here was complaining. And I'm going, "Wait a second.
I gave you $40,000. I'm a patron! My wife and I are patrons.
And the IAS, the International Association of Scientologists.
We did not get one service for that! We gave $40,000 cash
money to the IAS for their war chest to fight evil people
on the planet for trying to destroy Scientology, so to speak.
I don't know where the money goes. But anyway, we gave $40,000
to that organization and they wouldn't even write a letter
for us or support us in any way? I said, "You know, something
stinks here. There is something just not right here."
And we went through this. We wrote letters and letters and
letters and never got a response except, go back to the complaining
body, the WISE organization, a guy by the name of Quinton
Strub. And another lady here, (to Abby) what's her name?
Diane Stein, the ethics officer or somebody or whatever her
post was here at the church were complaining about our association
with this multilevel marketing company and Kevin Trudeau.
So, you know, I was very upset about that. We wrote, wrote,
wrote and never got any satisfaction. And then I said, "That's
it! I've had enough!" I mean, this is ridiculous!
Not really. It was more than complaining. It is my belief
that Diane Stein made it a personal crusade. She did not have
all the facts. She did not understand everything. But some
of the people that were in the network marketing company obviously,
as Scientologists, a lot of the contacts and a lot of the
people that we had were Scientologists. And we enrolled them
in this business opportunity. And it was even to the point
where we-when we were first, when the whole thing first happened-the
mega memory portion in the pack that we got came out with
the mega memory, that we returned it. We did not keep it.
And it wasn't just these tapes. I mean, the basic thing with
nutrition, like most of the products were nutritional products
and health care, hair care, and laundry detergents and things
that you use every day in your home. So, we took those tapes
and we returned them but yet, we were still
I mean, like
Diane Stein made it a personal crusade. And quite honestly,
my thought was this, that means that anyone cannot be involved
in Scientology and work in a bookstore where Hubbard's books
are next to some other self help type book. It was the same
kind of philosophy. But without understanding. And I really
believe that part of the problem was some of the people that
we had sponsored into Nutrition for Life knew some of the
staff members at the org. And now, all of a sudden, they have
these org members who work long hours for very little pay
are trying to make a little money to maybe have a little bit
more in life
and all of a sudden, it was going to take
time away from their being at the org. I mean, I don't know.
That's what I believe that maybe Diane Stein was afraid of
but she was absolutely fanatical in her attack on
They declared us enemies of the Church of Scientology because
we were with this network marketing business. And that was
the only thing that we were making money from! We were trying
to make money at that point and time.
And that's when we were trying to make the money to put on
the bridge. Our whole purpose was to continue to go up the
Well, because we'd get better. We figured we would get better.
I know it sounds crazy sometimes but when you have the-the
carrot keeps being dangled in front of you and you just spent
all this money, you've got to figure that there is something.
There's got to be a pot of gold of some type at the end of
the rainbow and you just keep looking and looking and looking
for it. So, I know it sounds a little bit weird but, you know,
we were trying our best to really dig out. And we got buried.
Well, how about the time
let's go back a little, you
know? Talking about the support of the organization. How about
that time when we were ostracized in the newspaper?
The Way to Happiness campaign. We had been giving money and
money and money away to
Thousands of dollars.
The Way to Happiness. Every time they called, you know,
more money and more money and then we were written up in the
paper, which began to affect our business. And when you ask
for support, you know, this is an organization, you know,
that's supposed to help you. Where were they?
You know, the Way to Happiness campaign, which is a campaign
that the church sponsors. It's another way of getting people
involved with the Church. And it's certain presets about living
a healthy life. And they're standard things.
It's to do with the schools, isn't it?
Yeah, you want to do it with the school system and have your
kids in the school, have this book. It's written by Hubbard.
And it's not bad. It's good stuff.
So, we did it.
They asked-we did it.
So, we gave thousands of dollars to that campaign and then
we were attacked by the local community, newspaper and everything.
The articles about us in the newspaper
and that affected
our practice too.
Why did they attack you?
Well, because it was Hubbard. It was Scientology. So, they
realized that and that's why the local community attacked
us. This was a community we have lived in, we practice in
for years and years and years. And then they found out that
we were putting Scientology books in the schools, the local
schools. Although the Scientology books weren't necessarily
bad. I mean, it talks about brushing your teeth, keeping your
body clean, don't be promiscuous. I mean, good things. But,
because it's written by Hubbard or it's part of the Church
of Scientology, that they just felt that they could not go
along with that. And then they attacked us and they wrote
an article about local chiropractor, Pete Lazarnick involved
in Scientology. Cult and all this stuff. And then we had to
defend ourselves. It was a mess! A mess! And it affected our
practice terribly, definitely affected our practice. And this
is something that I would say to any doctor or any business
person. You will be, at one point and time, promoted to. If
you are with a consulting firm that teaches Hubbard's management
technology, you will be promoted to, sooner or later, about
doing services with the Church of Scientology. And I will
give you a very, very strong caveat: Beware of any services
that you are paying these extravagant fees for. I fell for
it. I mean, there's a lot of people that fall for it. And
it's not because you're not educated. It's not because you're
stupid. It's because, I know as a doctor and they know, that
one of your buttons-your hot buttons-is to help people. And
if they tell you that this is going to help you to help more
people that, many times, doctors will do that to be, you know,
to have a better life. And to help more people. They keep
pushing those buttons. They know which buttons to push. And
that's why they go after doctors. And I mean go after doctors
heavily. And go after business men heavily. So, be very, very
aware that when you're being promoted to about Scientology
services, especially the L's, you have to be very careful.
Go in with an open mind, do a lot of study. Do a lot of research.
Talk to people-not only the people they tell you talk to,
but talk to many people who have done the L's. You can go
on the website and go to different websites and find out about
people who have done it, like myself. If you ask me would
I ever do it over again? Never! Never, Never, Never!! I would
never do it over!
We would never have gotten started! Would not have ever started
Definitely not. So, buyer beware. And, you know, I made a
mistake. And I hope that this tape helps others not to make
the same mistake that Abby and I made.
One xxxxPart Two
to Peter and Abby Lazarnick