Transcript of Part Two

Stacy: So, what happened?

Lawrence: Okay. So, after that meeting, asbestos was no longer a problem. And then they started the renovation work. They ripped into the ship, you know? Like I said, you know, they were moving restaurants to different decks, putting in elevators, just ripped…it was just ripped apart. And then, you know, like, there was all new electrical so every time… that was attached to the underside of decks so, you know, you can't…it would have to be supported by brackets. So, every time you did that, you would screw into the asbestos, through the asbestos into the steel. They put in all new air conditioning. So every time you put in a new duct, you know, you rip out the asbestos.

Stacy: So, this is just asbestos flying everywhere on the ship now?

Lawrence: Yeah. And it was all new plumbing. The old plumbing…they used, like, salt water to flush the toilets on the ship which is kind of gross. So, all the pipes are corroded. It was just dripping everywhere. This ship was squalid! And it was…so, asbestos…they would just scrape it away with no mask, no nothing. Just, it would…people would be covered in blue!

Stacy: Oh my God!
Lawrence: Just people would be just covered in blue asbestos! And one guy, even I said to him, you know, "Asbestos! Asbestos!" And he even picked it up, he said, "It's not a problem." He picked it up and bit it!

Stacy: No!

Lawrence: And I just…anyway, I, you know, I put it out of my mind. I don't know.

Stacy: These people are all now terribly at risk for cancer.

Lawrence: They think they are protected by the policies of L. Ron Hubbard. And they're invincible. So then anyway…

Stacy: Including you. You're now at risk as well.

Lawrence: I was never happy with it. I just shut up like I had on so many other things, you know? So then anyway, they fell behind on the work. It was falling behind schedule that they wanted to release OT8. So they hired a ship fitting company out of England, Southampton, England who worked mostly in Miami on refitting cruise ships. So, then, you know, they had a contract with these people. They all flew out to the ship. They were all non-Scientologists, you know? It's a wog ship refit company. And then, you know, I had drawn up the plans by then, so they arrived on the ship. They flipped! They saw asbestos everywhere and it was, like, a major public relations problem for the ship. And they couldn't just fob off these guys and say, "Well, L. Ron Hubbard says…" (interviewer laughs) Because, you know, they're used to ships. They knew what they were talking about!

Stacy: Well, when these people came and voiced the same concerns that you had voiced, did Bitty Miscaviage or Wack Alcock or any of these people then come to you and say, "Maybe you're right"?

Lawrence: No! No, no, no. They never said that but they, at the same time, they had to address it. Because, you know, they didn't want, like, a big public relations flap with this, like, non-Scientology company possibly reporting them. Being… threatening to just imMediately pull off the project, which they did, you know? They threatened to imMediately pull off. And so they, you know, I mean, I think this company, by rights, they should have just pulled off because they had the health of their guys to consider. And their…I know their workmen were freaked because they knew all about asbestos. So, anyway, they finally negotiated and negotiated and they worked out a handling. They came up with, like…anytime asbestos was uncovered on the ship, they wouldn't just hack into it. They would have a little crew they made up of about four guys wearing, like, you know…

Stacy: Four guys from this company?

Lawrence: No, four guys who were Sea Org members. Sea Org Members.

Stacy: Oh, four Scientologists.

Lawrence: And they would, like, wrap themselves in sheets and they would put, like, you know, disposable masks on you use for, like, so you don't get…

Stacy: But that doesn't protect you from asbestos!

Lawrence: No. No, no. And they would…they were armed with spray bottles of water and paint, spray paint. And so, they would run over to the asbestos problem where it had been exposed and spray it!

Stacy: But that doesn't resolve it, does it?

Lawrence: No. But you see, it's better because the asbestos is really dangerous when it's dry and flaking and airborne. It goes airborne…the particles. So but now if it's wet, if it's a bucket of water, you know, it can't become airborne.

Stacy: Or if you spray the wall…

Lawrence: If you spray the walls…

Stacy: It will temporarily…

Lawrence: Temporarily is wet-you wet it down and then if you spray paint it…

Stacy: And this company was willing to subject its people to that kind of danger?

Lawrence: Well, you know, they had signed a contract probably worth four or five hundred thousand. They're committed to it…

Stacy: But those people are now at grave risk…

Lawrence: Yes.

Stacy: …from exposure to asbestos.

Lawrence: Yes.

Stacy: Do you remember the name of that company?

Lawrence: I believe it was called-it was based in South Hampton. I believe it was called, like, CCL or something, I can find it out. CCL.

Stacy: They should be alerted.
Lawrence: Yes. Yeah. Well, they knew. They knew. And so I don't know…they had, like, rather secretive negotiations with them. I don't know if they offered them more money. I don't know how they…because when they came to the ship, they were outraged and then they were going to pull off. And then they agreed to work on the ship. But, you know, under the conditions that if, you know, when the asbestos was found, these guys would run over and spray it and wet it.

Stacy: So they finished the project?

Lawrence: No, I wouldn't say…I would say that things went bad with them. And no, you know, the ship, their workers were extremely unhappy. I mean, I remember they would sleep in the cabins wearing these dust masks, you know? And I remember talking to the workers and they're going, they were English, you know? I was English, they were English. And we were kind of friends and they were befuddled, you know? Like, they were worried about their health. They were worried about our health. They were, like…

Stacy: What are you people doing??!

Lawrence: "If this is Scientology, what are you people doing?" And they were, like, "We want out of here." They were so unhappy.

Stacy: Yeah.

Lawrence: So unhappy. And they were, like, "We've got wives and kids, you know?" So, I would say they just stayed a few weeks and then things fell apart, you know. There were arguments about the work, the materials weren't arriving on time. There were a number of factors but they left. They left in October in 1987. And the ship was so far from complete. It wasn't, you know, they did hardly any work really. It was so far from complete. So then, the people running the ship had this bright idea. "Let us recruit from Los Angeles, from Clearwater, from anywhere in the United States, Scientology carpenters, metal workers, plumbers, electricians. Let us have our own work crew of, like, not Sea Org members but public Scientologists, anyone who is to do with contracting. Let us bring these people on the ship. They'll get full room and board and stay in the cabins. And then they will be paid, like, $800 a week tax free," you know because it's in the Caribbean. "And they will work and finish the ship." And then, they were controllable because they were Scientologists, you know? They couldn't…they had ways to control them. You know, they, like, they are not allowed to sue the Church. There is no legal recourse if you're a Scientologist unless you agree to be kicked out of the Church.

Stacy: Did any of these people ever voice an objection to being subjected to asbestos?

Lawrence: No, they didn't seem remotely worried about it. I mean, some of them…I don't…

Stacy: Were they told? Were they aware of it?

Lawrence: No one pointed it out to them, for sure. No one said, "Look! This is asbestos, guys! Time to freak out!" But some of them, as they had worked in construction, I can't imagine didn't know!

Stacy: Did you ever tell anybody?

Lawrence: I don't think I ever told…I don't think I discussed it with them.

Stacy: Do you remember any of the names of these people?

Lawrence: Yes, yes. Yeah, I do. I mean, I could reconstruct a list.

Stacy: They should be warned.

Lawrence: They should be warned, yeah. They should be. And there were maybe a hundred of them. So anyway, they then got to work and the ship was just finished up and then, you know, all the new furnishings arrive. New carpet, all the stuff arrived, air freighted from Miami, brought on the Island. And then all the paneling was put back. But, you know, for example, the decks would have, like, long corridors and then, you know, you would have the steel deck and then you'd have the lair of asbestos and all the pints running in that. And then you would have, like, a full ceiling with more asbestos tiles in, like, a metal…because you can put it in a metal __________. That would be the finish that you would see. But this wasn't airtight, you know, there would be, like, channels and the ceiling would sit in it. It's not airtight so, all the asbestos flaking and falling apart was out of sight. But you know, it would be leaking through these panels and then a ship at sea, you know? I mean, I went to sea in that ship and it shuddered, it shook. It vibrated, you know? A ship…it's like an aircraft…it shakes, it rattles. So, all of that asbestos that has been tampered with is loose, shaking…to this day! You know, and then, of course, on a ship, they're always doing repair work so they take the panels down, you know, fix the pipe and put the panel back.

Stacy: This is just horrible!

Lawrence: It's horrible. It's a nightmare.

Stacy: So everybody who goes on to the Freewinds to do OT8 is at deadly risk…

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: …of cancer from asbestos?

Lawrence: Yes.

Stacy: How is it that no health inspectors have discovered this? Has the ship never come back into U.S. waters?

Lawrence: No. The ship never, ever comes into U.S. waters. It sails to a few Islands in the Caribbean. I believe it's been up to Ensenada, Mexico.

Stacy: David Miscaviage and senior management…someone in management or one of their attorneys must be aware of this asbestos danger.

Lawrence: Well, yes. They would, I mean, I was on the ship when Miscaviage and all those people would come to it. You know, they would come to it before the renovations were complete. And they would come in the company of Bitty Miscaviage. And so, you know, they couldn't see the whole thing ripped apart. So, whether Bitty chose to tell them or…

Stacy: She must have reported this.

Lawrence: Yes. I would say so.

Stacy: So, they all know?

Lawrence: I would say they definitely do know, yes. And it horrifies me to think of hundreds of public who go on vacation and go to do courses who are being subjected to this risk without their permission. You know, without, like, if I said to you, "Stacy, let's go visit Chernobyl." (interviewer laughs) You would say, "Wait a minute. That's a nuclear power station that exploded and is contaminated for the next thousand years. I choose not to go there."

Stacy: Right.

Lawrence: But people…and as far as I'm concerned, asbestos is as dangerous as radioactive contamination, maybe even worse. But, like, and if they said to someone, "Hey, come and cruise on this ship," you know. "You are going to be exposed to contamination that can cause you cancer, do you still want to come?" (laughs) It's a no brainer! But, of course, people don't know, you know?

Stacy: This is horrible.

Lawrence: Would you come with your asbestos testing equipment, meters and laboratories? No.

Stacy: How would a person know if they've been endangered-if this asbestos is in their lungs?

Lawrence: Well, I believe that-I'm not sure medically, you know. I'm not trained in medicine. But I believe you can have a particular type of x-ray on which these particles would show up. And so, I would suggest, you know, I am still worried about it to this day because I was on the ship for a year in the worst periods. And I still, you know, go on the internet and read about the hazards of asbestos. And I think, well, should I go for an x-ray? And then I have nightmares of dying. How horrible it must be to die of lung cancer. And I know, for example, that if you smoke, I've read that, you know, if you're exposed to asbestos, don't smoke. Because that can make it even worse. So, I never smoke and I avoid any other kind of lung contamination. But of course, I live in LA with smog, you know? But now, I'm thinking, you know, I should-part of me doesn't want to know. I don't want to know how much asbestos do I have in my lungs? You know, because I have two daughters and a granddaughter. I don't want to die in ten years of lung cancer. I don't. Part of me, I don't even want to know. But part of me says, I should go and have it checked, you know? Because maybe they can be removed or flushed out or maybe…You know, I do…I take antioxidants and I take Vitamin E and I take, you know. But I mean, I know, like, antioxidants help you free radicals in food. Can they do anything about little microscopic hooks in your lungs? You know, and if I feel short of breath or something, I think, "Uh-oh. Is it my time?" You know, it's like, I live with it. And then all those other people there live with it. You know, they don't even know! You know, so I'm thinking now when I go back to LA, I will get tested, you know? Maybe they have advanced technology body testing. I don't know.

Stacy: I think you should.

Lawrence: I would like to know.

Part One xxxxPart Two

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