Interview - January 23, 2001
of Part One
Lawrence: Someone came to me and said, "You're an architect,
aren't you?" So, I said, "Yeah." Like, and
they said, "Well, congratulations! We've just bought
a cruise ship and we want you to fly out there. This cruise
ship is moored in the island of Curacao out in the Caribbean.
We want you to fly to the ship and look at it," you know,
"because we want to completely remodel. We're going to
spend millions on this ship. Because this ship is going to
be delivering new OT8, which is like the highest level that
hasn't even been released yet."
Now this is an Operating Thetan level?
Yeah. And they said, "This level can only be done, Hubbard
has written this level is so powerful, so amazing that it
and it's so confidential. It can't even be done on
land. It can't even be done on land. Hubbard wrote it has
to be done on a ship in the middle of the ocean so that nothing
can upset it." You know, away from all the enturbulation
of, like, society.
Enturbulation meaning, you know, even though you might have
an organization in a city, you know, this traffic, there are
cops, there are things that upset, you know
Society impacts it, you know. But OT8 is so delicate. Nothing
can be a distraction so it has be done in the middle of the
ocean on a ship.
At this point, how much auditing did you have by now?
pretty much all I had was what I had in London.
So you weren't up to these OT levels?
Oh, No. Nowhere, nowhere
not even close, no.
Did you still have the same idea that you had started with
that there were these wonderful powers that people could attain?
Oh, yes. I mean, I would look at the people at the Sand Castle
who were doing, like, OT6 and 7.
That's where people, Scientologists come and stay and play.
Right. And I would even interview them to see if everything
was okay, you know. That was my job. And I was, like, "Oh
my God! These people are so cool! And if only I knew what
they knew. If only I was doing what they were doing."
And they seemed so, kind of calm and, you know
seemed, nothing would upset them, you know? They were, like,
they seemed such calm. I had so much admiration for them.
I thought it
and I thought I just can't wait to get to
these levels, you know? And these people are so
know, out in the world, they were, like, chiropractors and,
you know, and they had businesses. And they just seemed so
seemed different from other people. So, I still had the whole
thing up on a plateau, you know, where this all will be worthwhile
because we're making these people who are going to solve all
of society's problems.
So I thought
I was kind of re-invigorated. I thought,
"Wow! This is such an important ship," you know.
And OT8 is so important because it's going to solve all the
world's problems, you know? I really thought once OT8's start
being made, the problems the world has with war and communism
and poverty, I thought this would all vanish, you know. I
can't even begin to think
I don't even want to go now.
It's difficult for me to go to where my mind was at. I kind
of shut it off. I think, "Did I really think that?"
I can't even go. You know, it's like walking down a long dark
corridor and then you walk down it and you think, "Did
I really believed that stuff!" Yes, I did
at the time. I believed it. But I don't
and even now,
I don't want to go there. I don't want to admit to you that
I believed these people could do all that.
It's like looking at a different person.
Yeah. Exactly. And now I know what I know about the true nature
of the OT levels. And I'm like, "This is what it is?"
And this is where I had it. I can't even go to where I thought
it was so wonderful because then I start to think, "You're
an idiot. You're a moron. My God! Do you have a brain?"
(laughs) I can't believe that I was so gullible. I can't
difficult, you know? So, anyway, I said, "Yeah. Oh, if
I can help with that ship, that is the coolest thing!"
So, I flew to the ship. I looked at it and then, you know,
it was, like a huge cruise ship. It was, like, a 13,000 ton
cruise ship. 400 foot long, 450 feet long. Moored in secret
on this island in the
So, I would fly to Miami and then
we would take, like, a secret flight to Curacao. We arrived
in the middle of the night. And we were, like, driven kind
of under cover to this cruise ship. And I can't
Why was it in such secrecy?
Because they told me that, you know, if ever they did bring
this ship into United States waters, it would be imMediately
confiscated against taxes and, you know, the United States
authorities would seize it as Church assets against back taxes
But why were they telling you something like that?
Because I think they wanted to explain to me the shroud of
secrecy, you know? I signed what's called a bond, which means
I would imMediately give them $10,000 if I revealed the location
of the ship. So, I'm going, "Come on guys," you
Why would they feel safe about telling you that there were
back taxes? Why would they tell you something like that?
I don't know. I guess they had to come up with some kind of
thing for the secrecy that would satisfy me.
But what I'm saying is why would they think you would keep
that secret for them?
Well, because I had signed a bond, you know. Anything, any
information that I released about the ship, I would imMediately
have to pay $10,000, you know? the location, why it was there,
you know, anything. If I revealed any confidential information
Did it ever occur to you that the authorities in the United
States should know that this ship was sitting there?
No! I would never have dreamed of that, you know.
Because you are now protecting Scientology at all costs?
Right. Right. You know, so, like, all through the immigration
and leaving the United States and coming back in, we weren't
to mention it, you know? We were going to Curacao as tourists,
you know? We weren't to mention the Freewinds.
And so, anyway, the night I arrived, like, late at night and
in a veil of secrecy. I mean, I thought I was James Bond.
Bond, James Bond, you know? (laughs) Like on a mission. It
was so cool, you know? And then you see this huge ship there
and you go, "Oh my God! The Church is so powerful. They
have this huge ship they just go out and buy! And like they
are just unbelievable! They can do anything!" You know,
And this is the ship that is going to save the
world and here I am arriving at this ship!" You know,
Oh my God! I was just
it was so cool, you know?
Incredible, yeah. And so, anyway, I sleep that night in a
cabin. The next day, I'm with this guy called Steve Kozaki,
who is, like
he's in charge of all the renos on the ship
so I meet him
Renovations. I think, actually, I flew out with him. And he
" So they have all these sketches
by interior designers, like, little sketches on bits of paper.
And these are, like, sacred sketches prepared by, like, the
LRH architect. They have a guy called Barry Stein, and his
girlfriend, whose name I
Carol something or other. And
they are the LRH architect and the LRH assistant architect.
I find out they are not actually licensed architects. Therefore,
it's not legal for them to call themselves architects. But,
you know, whatever
Hell, it's, like, so anyway, so they show me all these sketches
and say, you know, "This is the ship." Now, the
ship is just, like, squalid. It's called LaBoheme or something.
And it's just, like, ugly, you know? Like brown carpet, blue
chairs, green curtains and it's obviously
it looks like
it hasn't seen a lick of paint in fifty years! It's just,
like, the cabins are just ugly, you know? It's just, like,
it's like, you know, what kind of people would go cruising
on a ship like this? It's, like, just horrible! You know,
if you compare it to, like the QE2 or, like, you know, a cruise
ship in Miami, you know, like Carnival Cruise lines, it's
just a joke. Inside, it's just so squalid. But they have all
these sketches of all of these beautiful rooms of you know,
beautiful restaurants and they have, like, the restaurant
is on, like, the lower level deck and it overlooks all the
wind ___________ and the anchor and it's just ugly, you know?
And they say, "This is going to be the new OT8 course
room but we're going to take the restaurant up three decks
so it has a great view out to sea." And I go, "Well,
there's a little problem, you know, the galley is down here
where the old restaurant was! And the new restaurant is going
to up with a view, but hey, where's the kitchen guys?"
(laughs) And they go, "Yeah. Good point. (interviewer
laughs) Okay! We'll put in, like an elevator to take all the
food up!" So, I'm going, "Well, you know, a big
" You know, 'cause I've worked on restaurants
in England, you know, I say, "Well, you know, the way
you plan in architecture, you have the dining room, you have
the kitchen and you have
" You know, "there's
constant traffic in and out. In and out. You don't send the
food up in elevators, flying up the elevator! Come on, guys!
(interviewer laughs) Why don't you keep the restaurant down
here." And you know, so, I'm, like, being creative with
it. I'm, like, being an architect. I'm saying, "Okay.
Guys. Come on, keep the restaurant down here next to the kitchen.
There's no space up there for the kitchen," you know,
you know, "Function!" Because I'm going back to
my architecture. I'm back being an architect. "Come on
guys! Let me tell you how it's done here." You know,
it's a ship but hey, it's like a building.
And I'm going, "The course room can be anywhere. Who
cares about the course room?" You know, "Let's put
the course room up there." And they go, "Hey, you
don't understand. Let me explain to you the way it is. These
drawings are all approved, these sketches are approved by
the upper management by David Miscaviage himself," you
We aren't going to change them now.
"These drawings are cast in stone! You don't come on
here, you know, and be an architect and start telling us how
to do this. We're telling you. This is how it's going to be
done. You just have to figure it out. You don't come in here
being creative, like, throwing in your little ideas of, like,
how it should function. And offering little hints, you know?
That is not what we want. You need to work out how to get
these sketches reality." So, I'm, like, "Okay. Whatever."
Like, you know, I'm not used to working like this as an architect.
I'm used to, like, I'm respected, you know? I go into
would, in England, I would go into meetings with, like, I
worked for Gillette and I would see the boss of Gillette.
And he would say, "Okay, Lawrence," you know, "we
want to do a factory. How can we make this function?"
Well, I'd go, "Okay. Well, the trucks arrive here. You
unload here." You know, "We'll do the injection
molding here." This was with the boss of Gillette UK!
I'd be, like, working with him and I would be respected! And
he would say, "You're the architect. This is what we
want," you know. "we'll pay you thousands for this!"
You know, and it's a cool job. I loved it!
Now, I'm on this ship and I'm, you know, saying, "Okay,
guys. You need to rethink this. This isn't functioning."
You know, and almost on every level, you know, they had, like
going, you know, "You can't have a course room next to
a kitchen, you know? The noise from the kitchen would disturb
the course room. You can't have a restaurant not next to a
kitchen! You can't get the food to the restaurant, guys!"
You know, like, "You can't have offices next to cabins,
you know?" I'm, like, taught all about function and planning
and these people have no idea!
But they won't listen to me, you know? I'm just, like, a,
you know, I'm like not even an officer in the Sea Org. And,
like, you know, these people are, like, Lieutenants and Captains
in the Sea Org. So, even though they know nothing about architecture,
nothing about design, I am like, nobody to them. Except, "Oh,
but you do have this one use. You can draw plans. So you have
this little use but you just do your little thing and don't
"But we need you." So, I'm, like, I've never experienced
anything like this. And anyway, and then it's not
long, the guy in renos I.C., is like a kind of a cabinet guy
and we're in a cabin and
Now, the renos I.C. means renovations in charge?
He's in charge of the renovation project. And I'm not used
to having people be in charge of me as an architect. You know,
I'm the architect. I'm in charge of constructions. I tell
contractors what to do.
He's telling me what to do and I don't like it but whatever.
you have to
So anyway, he says,
"Let's find out what these walls are made of in our cabin."
So he grabs a hammer and he pounds it. He smashes into this
wall. I see this blue powdery substance, particles flying.
I go, "Steve! Stop!" You know, "I'm pretty
damn sure that's asbestos." And I'm, like, uh-oh! 'Cause
I've learned all about asbestos in architecture school. And
I go, "Uh-oh, you're releasing it! Let's do something!
Let's suit it up. Let's get the hell out of here!" Like,
I'm freaking! A panic mode because I've been in factories
in England with asbestos. If they find asbestos, they freak
out! The whole thing is closed down.
okay, one little particle of asbestos is microscopically
like a little fishing hook. And it's
we were releasing
probably millions of these particles. And then, one little
particle, you breathe it in, it hooks into the lining of your
lung and then there's no way
the lung can't flush it
out. It's hooked in with a little bobbed hook! The lung can't
flush it out with mucus or anything. And then it's there.
And then, as I understood it, medical research showed one
little particle, 20 years later, you got lung cancer. One
particle! And we had just released
It's a carcinogen.
It's a carcinogen, yeah. Like, you know, they used to use
it all the time because it's a great insulator. It's a great
material. It's, you know
but then, they replaced that.
They never used asbestos in England anymore since the 70's
because it's one of the deadliest materials known to man.
So, what do you do? If you have a building or a ship with
either that building is imMediately sealed off with
plastic sheets with airlocks and then the
you know, they
will call in a special asbestos abatement company licensed
and totally specialists and they would wear spacesuits, you
know, with respirators and air tanks. And they would remove
every last particle of it, dispose of it in proper bags and
then it would go to a special hazardous materials dump. And
then, you know, then the building would be certified asbestos
free and then we could, you know
then you would have
to use new insulation materials-asbestos free. And unbelievably
expensive! Unbelievably expensive but then, you know, no company
wants to own a building that is full of asbestos that, you
know, people can sue them and, you know.
What about a ship? What do you do about a ship?
You know, I didn't know at that point what you would do. And
so then, I'm walking around the ship and I go into the engine
room and I see panels missing from, like, the control room,
a panel missing. And I see a big chunk of blue asbestos hanging
down-what I identify as blue asbestos. Now, in my lectures
in England, they had told us that there's an even more-the
deadliest form of asbestos is called blue asbestos. And, you
know, I don't know if I'm being exactly technically correct
or if the terms are the same in America. But I believe they
colored it blue especially to show that it was hazardous,
you know? It's not blue, it's dyed blue.
And they said, you know, white asbestos, microscopically is
like one little fishing hook. Blue asbestos is like a barbed
ball of, like, hundreds of hooks, one particle! You know,
so if the one hook gets into your lungs and it doesn't hook
on, the barb has hooks in all directions and it's going to
hook on. So, that's, like the most deadly.
So it's even more dangerous.
It's even more dangerous. So, I'm, like, okay
so, I said,
"I will find the chief engineer on the ship," who
was a guy called Wack Alcock (sp?). I think he was from New
Zealand, "and he will know." So, I go to him and
I say, "Sir, you have asbestos in your engine room just
hanging there." And he says, "It's not asbestos.
I'm the engineer. It is not asbestos."
What did he say it was?
he said, "It's just insulation."
So, okay. I can't believe this! So, and I'm, like, beginning
to question my own education, you know? I'm pretty damn sure,
you know? I've been to lectures on it. And they've shown it
to us in class.
So were there any plans for this ship?
Yeah. I then went into his office and I found a full set of
blueprints. You know, the ship had been built in Finland,
I think in 1968. And there were a full set of blueprints.
I pulled them out and I think, "Blueprints! At last!
I know what I'm doing!" And then, but it's all in Finnish,
you know, whatever. I believe, Finnish. But then, asbestos
is the same so then, asbestos, like, all of the
You're seeing this written on the plans?
I see the word "asbestos" like, you know, they've
got a section through the ship showing all the walls and they
are saying "asbestos" with an arrow. So, it's on
every underside of every deck.
So, it is asbestos?
It is asbestos.
It's blue asbestos on the ship.
It's blue asbestos-everywhere! Sprayed on when the ship was
in the shipyard. They built the steel. They built the hull
and then they would just spray it, you know?
Isn't asbestos so deadly that it's actually illegal to have
any asbestos at all in a structure where people are going
Right. Exactly so, yeah. And it's-back in England, they made
it, like, a criminal offense to knowingly have asbestos particles
released into the air. I mean, if you do it by accident then,
you know. But as soon as you knowingly release it or don't
do anything about it, it's a prison term, a huge fine.
Well, these people knew. They had the plans.
And also in California, in the whole of the United States,
there's the same - very, very serious, you know? So I had
been schooled in this, you know? You see asbestos, you, like
scream! And get it handled, you know?
Yeah. And get out of there!
Lawrence: And get out of there, yeah. And so anyway, I was
just, like, I was running around going, "Asbestos! Asbestos!
Everyone run!!" And they're going, "What??"
They can't believe it.
They wouldn't listen to me.
So this chief engineer Wack Alcock said it's not asbestos?
He said, "It is not asbestos." He said, "I
am the chief engineer" blah blah blah. I knew it was,
you know. I had no question in my mind. And then I saw the
blueprints. So then about this time, a lady called Bitty Miscaviage
who is, like
Bitty Miscaviage is married to David Miscaviage's brother,
Ronnie. Isn't she?
Right. And she was, like, I think Commander Bitty Miscaviage.
She's the Commodore's Messenger in the CMO.
Yeah. She was, like, in the CMO organization. And she was,
you know, with the fancy uniform, she was in overall charge
of everything to do with the ship-over the captain-over everything.
So she arrived a the ship. So, I go up to her and say, "Sir,"
you know, "I think you have a problem with this ship."
You know, I mean
and, like, she's, like, looking at me
like, "You're telling me I have a problem?" Because
that isn't the way in the Sea Org. You don't walk up to a
high ranking Sea Org officer and say, "You have a problem."
(interviewer laughs) You say, "There was a problem but
I have solved it." (interviewer laughs) You can't walk
up to up to someone and say, "You have a problem."
But that wasn't the way I was used to operating.
I would just, hey, if the boss of Gillette UK has a problem,
I'll say, call him and say, "You have a problem."
(laughs) And he would say, "Hey, thanks for telling me!
Because I don't want there to be a problem running out of
control. I want to know." And she was like, "You're
telling me I have a problem? Who are you?" And I'm going,
"Well, I'm an architect from England." She didn't
even know who I was. "I'm an architect from England and
I want you to look at these blueprints." And she says,
"Oh," she said, you know, she said, "Doesn't
asbestos cause cancer?" And I'm going, "Finally!
Finally! I've got through to someone!" You know, "Finally,
they're going to address this problem." Because I'm
Yeah. And get everybody off the ship!
Yeah, get everyone off the ship and then, you know, to me,
it's over. You know, like, they've got a big problem.
I'm thinking it's over. And finally, I brought it to attention
of Bitty Miscaviage. And finally, this is a person sufficiently
senior to, like, do something about it. And then, so, she
says, "We'll have a meeting. Bring these blueprints."
Steve Kozaki, the chief engineer-the captain-we're all sitting
around the table, and she actually is pretty sympathetic.
She's a little freaked out. She is like, "What are we
going to do, guys? What are we going to do?" And so,
Steve Kozaki and the chief engineer say, "Well, you know,
we have studied the LRH advices and policies on the ship.
He was a captain in the US Navy. LRH, you know, knew ships.
He knew everything about ships and we exactly implement all
of his policies and all of his advices. He hasn't said anything
about asbestos being a problem." And obviously, asbestos
was a problem back on those ships. And then, but he did mention
fiberglass as, like, being, like, fiberglass is, like, "long
needles microscopically and it can irritate you and you can
breathe it in and it's nasty. "So, sir, Mr. Miscaviage,
sir, we have ripped all of the fiberglass out of the ship,"
and sure enough, there's a big pile of fiberglass on the dock.
And I'm going, "Well, excuse me," you know, "excuse
me?" I mean, fiberglass isn't hazardous. You know, fiberglass
is commonly used as insulation in buildings and no one says
it's a problem. And I said, "If you rip it all out of
the decks, you know, and you're out in the hot Caribbean sun,
the sun is going to come beating straight through the steel
walls and deck. Maybe you should put it all back." And
they're, like, with me, like, "This guy has," like,
"got a couple of screws loose." Okay, they say,
They're looking at you like you have screws loose.
I'm, like, a nutcase. They're going, you know
"You just don't know Scientology. You just don't know
what you're talking about." You know
What's Scientology got to do with it?
"Hubbard has said fiberglass is the problem. He said
nothing about asbestos! So, we've taken all the fiberglass
out." So, I said, "You know, you've, like
I don't even know what I said. "You've, like, removed
the few mice walking around the ship but you left the dragon,
you know, running around breathing fire!" And they're
going, "Oh," (draws big breath) they're just exasperated
with me. And I said, "Look," I said, "Hubbard
wrote his policies
" I said, "He probably wasn't
even aware of medical research into asbestos!" And they're
going, "Hubbard wasn't aware???!! What are you saying???!!"
Impossible, you know? Like, they said, "No! Hubbard
the chief engineer and this guy, Kozaki say, "If Hubbard
didn't say asbestos was a problem, it is not a problem. Besides,
Hubbard," you know, "Hubbard knew all about cancer
and he said cancer was caused by sexual misconduct, not asbestos.
And that's what we follow." So, Bitty Miscaviage is,
like, "Whew! Gosh! What a relief! I thought we were going
to have a problem but it's all cool." And she turns to
me and says, "Lawrence, do you now understand the way
it is?" You know, and like, my mind is reeling because
on the one hand, there's, like, my education
And were they also feeling that because they were Scientologists,
it wasn't going to harm them?
Right. There's the thought that, you know, "You don't
understand. The people coming to this ship are going to be
on the highest level of," you know, "they're going
to be OT8. You could probably hit them on the head with a
hammer and it wouldn't hurt them. You know, they are, like,
so above the physical universe. And this is so theta, that,
like, these people are practically invincible," you know?
So the asbestos won't bother them anyway.
"Won't be a problem. Won't be a problem."
But what about all the crew members of the ship?
You know, to this day, I never even thought about that. They're
I never thought about that. Good point. Well, they
were the ones with long-term exposure, too.
to Lawrence Woodcraft