Transcript of Part Two

Barbara: It kind of fractured our family apart. It splintered it apart. It pointed out everybody's flaws in the family. Like, my daughter was real unhappy by the fact that mom was never home and dad was never home. We were always at the Church doing courses until late at night. 10:00, 11:00 at night. And when I told the people that schedule, "Gee, you know, my daughter really misses me and she's crying for me." They said, "Well, you know, the importance is that you spend a few minutes with her everyday. But you have get on with yourself. You have to improve yourself." So it wasn't really a fostering of the family. Children were just kind of incidentally there and to be dealt with. And it made it very difficult for my children. My son was more enthusiastic about it. My daughter wasn't because she missed mom. But my son was intrigued by it. He was interested by it. And when he was 13 or 14, they tried to recruit him into the Sea Org and that's an organization where you sign a contract for, like, a billion years (laughs) or a couple million years or something. And you live and you work for them. I mean, they saw that he was very bright and he had a lot of potential and right away, they were trying to recruit him. And, essentially, the Sea Org is where you work for free and you're just kind of their slave from morning until night. I mean, you don't go on with education. They educate you themselves. And, you know, everything is slanted. There's no open education. I mean, Hubbard has his own ideas. Science is wrong. History is wrong. Medicine is wrong. I mean, it just… In looking back, I can see how it just strips away all the beliefs that we grew up with our whole lives. But, at the time, when they're building that in your head and kind of replacing what you know with new information, it doesn't seem so bizarre as when you can just look at the whole package. But the way it's spoon fed to you, it kind of really sucks you in and you don't even realize it's happening. And I know a lot of people think that it can't happen to them and I always thought that, too. And I don't know how it happened. I don't know at what point it happened but it happens. And they're very covert. It's very subtle and it's very insidious! You don't even know it's happening, really don't know. It's too late by the time you're far gone. It's really hard to make you realize what's going on and to see the truth for what it is. Well, the first things we started to do-at some of the seminars-were bullbaiting. That's where you learn to keep your cool no matter what people say to you. And so, it was kind of a game that we'd play at home where my son would sit in the chair and my daughter would tease him and try to get him to react. And he'd see if he could sit still and not react. And we had a lot of fun with that. The whole family did that. So, at first we thought it was new and intriguing and fun. But then, later, my daughter…she really didn't like it. She thought it was boring. She was really upset that she had to sit around and wait for me when I was in session or in classes. And she was very traumatized by it. I mean, we never had dinner together. We never went to church together anymore. We never did family things together. It was, like, all put aside to just keep, you know, going towards the bridge to try to improve yourself. And like I said, this was a gradual process but, not only did they want all your money, they want all your time! It's just like they splinter you up and I don't know how more people don't break from it. It's so stressful to live that way! You feel like you're on a treadmill. You're running to work to make enough money to pay for the courses that you need to take so that you can take more time off to take the courses. You just are running in circles! You're chasing your tail, literally, chasing your tail!

Interviewer: You said that your daughter would be waiting for you. Was she waiting at the org quite often?

Barbara: Yeah. She would wait at the org or she would wait at home.

Interviewer: Did they ever put her to work while she was there?

Barbara: Oh, yeah. They would have her fold envelopes and do things like that.
Interviewer: So, this was pretty standard when she would be waiting, they would have her…

Barbara: Oh, yeah. They would try to recruit her to help and I'd say, "Oh, Jojo, why don't you go ahead and help, you know, rather than sit there?" She would take courses but she never really liked them. I know she did the purification, which is where they give you massive doses of vitamins. I've done the same thing and my son and my husband did it. And she hated it. She would pour the pills out and pour the drinks out and they never knew. But we're real proud of her.

Interviewer: When your son was away at military school, they tried to have him…

Barbara: Oh, yeah. They wanted him to recruit other kids and to bring kids into the Church. And so, he did bring some kids there and that was when he thought it was a good thing, you know, when we believed in it. And they always said, "Oh, you have to bring more friends in! We want to spread it." Their ultimate goal is to take over the world. I mean, it's not just like to help people have a good religion and improve yourself and your being. No, the whole purpose is to take over the whole world. To take over the whole world. And if they take over the whole world, no one will think for themselves ever again. Because they downplay any kind of news Media, any kind of radio, TV, any kind of informative way. I mean, they always used to knock the ADA, the American Dental Association. The business group would knock that, the Marcus Group.

Interviewer: You were talking about the purification rundown. You actually have damage from it?

Barbara: Yeah, I have elevated liver enzymes and I'm having a hard time getting insurance from it. And what they do is they send you to a chiropractor to clear you for the purification. Because I think that any medical doctor, any normal medical physician would say, "Wait a minute. What is this program? And I don't think you should do it." So, they have a chiropractor clear you to do this purification rundown. But the chiropractor is always a member of the Church of Scientology. And they've already been into it and they've been brainwashed anyway. So, they think it's a good thing. And the Church is always number one. It exceeds the government, your profession, everything. You know, so if Hubbard says, if Ron says it's good for you, then you put all the stuff…all your learning aside-and I don't know how that happens but you do-and you go ahead with this program. And as a result of taking massive doses of Niacin, I believe that that's why my liver enzymes are elevated and I'm checking into that now. But Niacin has been linked to creating liver problems and that's never revealed to you or anything when you are in the purification. It's run by a kid. It's a kid that's doing it. He oversees it, you know? He's done it before and he's your overseer. He has no medical or professional background at all. It's just a kid, you know, that they recruited that believes in it, too. And believe me, there's a lot of doctors that are not MD's but, I mean, a lot of optometrists, dentists, chiropractors that are doing this purification. So, it's not just the laypeople. It's also professionals that they're duping into it.

Interviewer: Who you would think would know better. At least, the medical physicians, you would think they…

Barbara: Well, you know better when you have your own mind! But when you're under this influence, I'm telling you, everything gets tossed aside. You just don't know better.

Interviewer: Do you remember when your feelings about Hubbard may have shifted?

Barbara: You know what? It was so subtle and it was so gradual. And it was so over a period of time. I don't know when it shifted. I really don't know when it shifted. And even though some of the stuff made sense to me, I always gripped to the fact that I was Catholic. That was, like, my saving saying, "But I'm Catholic. But I'm Catholic." Because I was afraid, you know? I was afraid. It just frightened the pants off of me, the whole cult idea of it. And then the leader of the business group, Rovane Marcus, he met with us-him and his wife-they took Bill and I to dinner. And all through dinner, they said, "Oh, you'll just be best friends. We're going to help you improve your practice but you have to improve yourselves. If your relationship improves, then your business will improve and things will go better." And so, of course, Bill and I wanted to improve and that was our downfall. We wanted to improve.

Bill: There were people from the Church of Scientology downtown in Chicago referred to as the org that would come to the Marcus Group and be introduced to the clients of the Marcus Group who were professionals. Dentists, chiropractors, veterinarians and optometrists and they would become a friend of yours. And so, you were associated with them and they would then invite you to come downtown. And you knew that somebody that was downtown was somebody you had met up there at the Marcus Group. And then all it takes is a little prodding from Revane Marcus or Greg Winnereg or Louie Cologne to say, "Well, you're dirty. You're a drug personality. You need to get cleaned up. Get rid of your withholds and overts. Confess it all and get yourself clean so you can be a real powerful being and go out there and produce big time and make a lot of money. Million dollars a year out of your practice and pay for all of these courses and pay for going up the bridge. And pay all the money that you work so hard for, morning until night, twelve hours a day, five or six days a week to make your practice boom." They're taking advantage of your ability as a professional to make money and then manipulate you to give them money to them for courses and books and for going up the bridge, which are more courses and books that the Church of Scientology administers.

Barbara: So we started taking courses at the Church. And when we first went in there, it seemed okay. There were, like, sofas around. It doesn't seem like a bad place. And they have course rooms and of course, doctors have been through so much school, they can relate to course rooms. We like classrooms! You feel like you're back in school. It didn't seem like a church or feel like a church. And that was on the surface, you know? But it kind of takes a twist and I always compare it to, like, being on a diet. That, you know, when you first go on a diet, it's really healthy for you and it's good because you're getting control of yourself and your weight and you feel good. But then, there's that point in which you can take it to excess and maybe become anorexic and where a good thing can turn bad. That's what happens with this group, with this religion. The initial ideas are okay, you know? A lot of it is common sense but it's just written down but then it takes this funny twist and it goes off into an area that's really kind of black and scary. It's not good. But by the time it takes that twist, they already have you so indoctrinated, you can't really see the twist coming and that's what happens.

Interviewer: So, you're in the course room and you have to do a clay demo. What was that like?

Barbara: Well, I'm an artist. I mean, that was fun. I like messing with the clay, you know? But to think you're paying $7,000 to play with a chunk of clay and make little people, that was…It was okay but see, what wasn't okay is you had directions on what you had to demonstrate, an action or something in your life to help you, you know, clear it out of you or straighten it out or figure it out. But the girl that was teaching it, she would interpret the question one way, this was Amy. And then we went to Louie, the head guy, and he said, "No, redo it because you've been doing it wrong." So now, I'm thinking "Okay. This kid's in charge of the course room. She's telling me what to do but she's telling me the wrong thing to do." Now the head guy is telling me something different. So, number one, how many people did she tell to demonstrate things in the wrong way for $7,000 a pop? And number two, was I getting out of it what I was supposed to be getting out of it? So, you know, I remember doing that whole course two times! But you pay each time!

Interviewer: And you did it twice because…

Barbara: Because we needed to do it again. It's our fault. We weren't as good as we should be. Okay? But that little doubt-that seed of doubt-was in my head when we came to a step and she had interpreted it incorrectly and she is supposed to be the class room instructor. This is his daughter-his stepdaughter. And she's been in it all her life. And what really floors me is these people that have been in it all their life…they're not even up the bridge, you know, the learning thing, as much as they are pushing these doctors to go up it. You know, like, when Louie was, like, the head of the thing, he hadn't even been through Stage 3 yet. You know, and his kids hadn't done the purification and they hadn't gone up or had auditing. And they're pushing all of us, like, we have to do it, you know, like, today…yesterday!

Interviewer: The money you were paying for these courses, it's all tax deductible, right?

Barbara: It's presented as payments for courses. It's never said that it's a donation. It's not, like, do you want to donate $50,000? I would say no. But they say, "You have to buy these courses and auditing packages for your self improvement. This is for your whole life." That's another thing. You purchase a course. You purchase books. And then they say, it's tax deductible. Well, that's kind of like, double gravy, you know? But they don't say where you're donating it and if you don't do this, you're never going to get the money back.

Interviewer: But was it called a sale price or was it called a fixed donation or something along those lines?

Barbara: It was never called a donation. Never did they call it a donation! Only when you don't take the courses and you change your mind and you want your money back, then it's a donation. But I always say it's not really a church. I mean, they have tax free status but it's really like a school. It's courses. It's not really a church. They never have, like, a service where everybody goes. There's never, like, an alter or anything or prayer together. It's nothing like that. It's really like a school where they indoctrinate you the whole time.

Interviewer: So, you never attended any type of Sunday service or any type of…

Barbara: No. In fact, one of the ladies that ran the place, she says, "Oh, you know, I'm also a chaplain." I said, "Get out of here! You have chaplains in this place?" You know, she goes, "Oh, yeah." We thought that was really funny because we had been going there for quite a while and we never knew that she was a chaplain or that they even had one.

Interviewer: So, no one said, "Why don't you come to our service on Sunday?"

Barbara: They don't have services! I never heard of that! They have classes. You have to go in the course room. You have to take classes-very expensive classes-or have auditing. But I never heard of a service of any kind.

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