Bill
and Barbara Z. Interview
Video
Interview on WISE Fraud
Part
Two
January
26, 2000
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Transcript
of Part Two
Barbara:
It kind of fractured our family apart. It splintered it apart.
It pointed out everybody's flaws in the family. Like, my daughter
was real unhappy by the fact that mom was never home and dad
was never home. We were always at the Church doing courses
until late at night. 10:00, 11:00 at night. And when I told
the people that schedule, "Gee, you know, my daughter
really misses me and she's crying for me." They said,
"Well, you know, the importance is that you spend a few
minutes with her everyday. But you have get on with yourself.
You have to improve yourself." So it wasn't really a
fostering of the family. Children were just kind of incidentally
there and to be dealt with. And it made it very difficult
for my children. My son was more enthusiastic about it. My
daughter wasn't because she missed mom. But my son was intrigued
by it. He was interested by it. And when he was 13 or 14,
they tried to recruit him into the Sea Org and that's an organization
where you sign a contract for, like, a billion years (laughs)
or a couple million years or something. And you live and you
work for them. I mean, they saw that he was very bright and
he had a lot of potential and right away, they were trying
to recruit him. And, essentially, the Sea Org is where you
work for free and you're just kind of their slave from morning
until night. I mean, you don't go on with education. They
educate you themselves. And, you know, everything is slanted.
There's no open education. I mean, Hubbard has his own ideas.
Science is wrong. History is wrong. Medicine is wrong. I mean,
it just
In looking back, I can see how it just strips
away all the beliefs that we grew up with our whole lives.
But, at the time, when they're building that in your head
and kind of replacing what you know with new information,
it doesn't seem so bizarre as when you can just look at the
whole package. But the way it's spoon fed to you, it kind
of really sucks you in and you don't even realize it's happening.
And I know a lot of people think that it can't happen to them
and I always thought that, too. And I don't know how it happened.
I don't know at what point it happened but it happens. And
they're very covert. It's very subtle and it's very insidious!
You don't even know it's happening, really don't know. It's
too late by the time you're far gone. It's really hard to
make you realize what's going on and to see the truth for
what it is. Well, the first things we started to do-at some
of the seminars-were bullbaiting. That's where you learn to
keep your cool no matter what people say to you. And so, it
was kind of a game that we'd play at home where my son would
sit in the chair and my daughter would tease him and try to
get him to react. And he'd see if he could sit still and not
react. And we had a lot of fun with that. The whole family
did that. So, at first we thought it was new and intriguing
and fun. But then, later, my daughter
she really didn't
like it. She thought it was boring. She was really upset that
she had to sit around and wait for me when I was in session
or in classes. And she was very traumatized by it. I mean,
we never had dinner together. We never went to church together
anymore. We never did family things together. It was, like,
all put aside to just keep, you know, going towards the bridge
to try to improve yourself. And like I said, this was a gradual
process but, not only did they want all your money, they want
all your time! It's just like they splinter you up and I don't
know how more people don't break from it. It's so stressful
to live that way! You feel like you're on a treadmill. You're
running to work to make enough money to pay for the courses
that you need to take so that you can take more time off to
take the courses. You just are running in circles! You're
chasing your tail, literally, chasing your tail!
Interviewer:
You said that your daughter would be waiting for you. Was
she waiting at the org quite often?
Barbara:
Yeah. She would wait at the org or she would wait at home.
Interviewer:
Did they ever put her to work while she was there?
Barbara:
Oh, yeah. They would have her fold envelopes and do things
like that.
Interviewer: So, this was pretty standard when she would be
waiting, they would have her
Barbara:
Oh, yeah. They would try to recruit her to help and I'd say,
"Oh, Jojo, why don't you go ahead and help, you know,
rather than sit there?" She would take courses but she
never really liked them. I know she did the purification,
which is where they give you massive doses of vitamins. I've
done the same thing and my son and my husband did it. And
she hated it. She would pour the pills out and pour the drinks
out and they never knew. But we're real proud of her.
Interviewer:
When your son was away at military school, they tried to have
him
Barbara:
Oh, yeah. They wanted him to recruit other kids and to bring
kids into the Church. And so, he did bring some kids there
and that was when he thought it was a good thing, you know,
when we believed in it. And they always said, "Oh, you
have to bring more friends in! We want to spread it."
Their ultimate goal is to take over the world. I mean, it's
not just like to help people have a good religion and improve
yourself and your being. No, the whole purpose is to take
over the whole world. To take over the whole world. And if
they take over the whole world, no one will think for themselves
ever again. Because they downplay any kind of news Media,
any kind of radio, TV, any kind of informative way. I mean,
they always used to knock the ADA, the American Dental Association.
The business group would knock that, the Marcus Group.
Interviewer:
You were talking about the purification rundown. You actually
have damage from it?
Barbara:
Yeah, I have elevated liver enzymes and I'm having a hard
time getting insurance from it. And what they do is they send
you to a chiropractor to clear you for the purification. Because
I think that any medical doctor, any normal medical physician
would say, "Wait a minute. What is this program? And
I don't think you should do it." So, they have a chiropractor
clear you to do this purification rundown. But the chiropractor
is always a member of the Church of Scientology. And they've
already been into it and they've been brainwashed anyway.
So, they think it's a good thing. And the Church is always
number one. It exceeds the government, your profession, everything.
You know, so if Hubbard says, if Ron says it's good for you,
then you put all the stuff
all your learning aside-and
I don't know how that happens but you do-and you go ahead
with this program. And as a result of taking massive doses
of Niacin, I believe that that's why my liver enzymes are
elevated and I'm checking into that now. But Niacin has been
linked to creating liver problems and that's never revealed
to you or anything when you are in the purification. It's
run by a kid. It's a kid that's doing it. He oversees it,
you know? He's done it before and he's your overseer. He has
no medical or professional background at all. It's just a
kid, you know, that they recruited that believes in it, too.
And believe me, there's a lot of doctors that are not MD's
but, I mean, a lot of optometrists, dentists, chiropractors
that are doing this purification. So, it's not just the laypeople.
It's also professionals that they're duping into it.
Interviewer:
Who you would think would know better. At least, the medical
physicians, you would think they
Barbara:
Well, you know better when you have your own mind! But when
you're under this influence, I'm telling you, everything gets
tossed aside. You just don't know better.
Interviewer:
Do you remember when your feelings about Hubbard may have
shifted?
Barbara:
You know what? It was so subtle and it was so gradual. And
it was so over a period of time. I don't know when it shifted.
I really don't know when it shifted. And even though some
of the stuff made sense to me, I always gripped to the fact
that I was Catholic. That was, like, my saving saying, "But
I'm Catholic. But I'm Catholic." Because I was afraid,
you know? I was afraid. It just frightened the pants off of
me, the whole cult idea of it. And then the leader of the
business group, Rovane Marcus, he met with us-him and his
wife-they took Bill and I to dinner. And all through dinner,
they said, "Oh, you'll just be best friends. We're going
to help you improve your practice but you have to improve
yourselves. If your relationship improves, then your business
will improve and things will go better." And so, of course,
Bill and I wanted to improve and that was our downfall. We
wanted to improve.
Bill:
There were people from the Church of Scientology downtown
in Chicago referred to as the org that would come to the Marcus
Group and be introduced to the clients of the Marcus Group
who were professionals. Dentists, chiropractors, veterinarians
and optometrists and they would become a friend of yours.
And so, you were associated with them and they would then
invite you to come downtown. And you knew that somebody that
was downtown was somebody you had met up there at the Marcus
Group. And then all it takes is a little prodding from Revane
Marcus or Greg Winnereg or Louie Cologne to say, "Well,
you're dirty. You're a drug personality. You need to get cleaned
up. Get rid of your withholds and overts. Confess it all and
get yourself clean so you can be a real powerful being and
go out there and produce big time and make a lot of money.
Million dollars a year out of your practice and pay for all
of these courses and pay for going up the bridge. And pay
all the money that you work so hard for, morning until night,
twelve hours a day, five or six days a week to make your practice
boom." They're taking advantage of your ability as a
professional to make money and then manipulate you to give
them money to them for courses and books and for going up
the bridge, which are more courses and books that the Church
of Scientology administers.
Barbara:
So we started taking courses at the Church. And when we first
went in there, it seemed okay. There were, like, sofas around.
It doesn't seem like a bad place. And they have course rooms
and of course, doctors have been through so much school, they
can relate to course rooms. We like classrooms! You feel like
you're back in school. It didn't seem like a church or feel
like a church. And that was on the surface, you know? But
it kind of takes a twist and I always compare it to, like,
being on a diet. That, you know, when you first go on a diet,
it's really healthy for you and it's good because you're getting
control of yourself and your weight and you feel good. But
then, there's that point in which you can take it to excess
and maybe become anorexic and where a good thing can turn
bad. That's what happens with this group, with this religion.
The initial ideas are okay, you know? A lot of it is common
sense but it's just written down but then it takes this funny
twist and it goes off into an area that's really kind of black
and scary. It's not good. But by the time it takes that twist,
they already have you so indoctrinated, you can't really see
the twist coming and that's what happens.
Interviewer:
So, you're in the course room and you have to do a clay demo.
What was that like?
Barbara:
Well, I'm an artist. I mean, that was fun. I like messing
with the clay, you know? But to think you're paying $7,000
to play with a chunk of clay and make little people, that
was
It was okay but see, what wasn't okay is you had
directions on what you had to demonstrate, an action or something
in your life to help you, you know, clear it out of you or
straighten it out or figure it out. But the girl that was
teaching it, she would interpret the question one way, this
was Amy. And then we went to Louie, the head guy, and he said,
"No, redo it because you've been doing it wrong."
So now, I'm thinking "Okay. This kid's in charge of the
course room. She's telling me what to do but she's telling
me the wrong thing to do." Now the head guy is telling
me something different. So, number one, how many people did
she tell to demonstrate things in the wrong way for $7,000
a pop? And number two, was I getting out of it what I was
supposed to be getting out of it? So, you know, I remember
doing that whole course two times! But you pay each time!
Interviewer:
And you did it twice because
Barbara:
Because we needed to do it again. It's our fault. We weren't
as good as we should be. Okay? But that little doubt-that
seed of doubt-was in my head when we came to a step and she
had interpreted it incorrectly and she is supposed to be the
class room instructor. This is his daughter-his stepdaughter.
And she's been in it all her life. And what really floors
me is these people that have been in it all their life
they're
not even up the bridge, you know, the learning thing, as much
as they are pushing these doctors to go up it. You know, like,
when Louie was, like, the head of the thing, he hadn't even
been through Stage 3 yet. You know, and his kids hadn't done
the purification and they hadn't gone up or had auditing.
And they're pushing all of us, like, we have to do it, you
know, like, today
yesterday!
Interviewer:
The money you were paying for these courses, it's all tax
deductible, right?
Barbara:
It's presented as payments for courses. It's never said that
it's a donation. It's not, like, do you want to donate $50,000?
I would say no. But they say, "You have to buy these
courses and auditing packages for your self improvement. This
is for your whole life." That's another thing. You purchase
a course. You purchase books. And then they say, it's tax
deductible. Well, that's kind of like, double gravy, you know?
But they don't say where you're donating it and if you don't
do this, you're never going to get the money back.
Interviewer:
But was it called a sale price or was it called a fixed donation
or something along those lines?
Barbara:
It was never called a donation. Never did they call it a donation!
Only when you don't take the courses and you change your mind
and you want your money back, then it's a donation. But I
always say it's not really a church. I mean, they have tax
free status but it's really like a school. It's courses. It's
not really a church. They never have, like, a service where
everybody goes. There's never, like, an alter or anything
or prayer together. It's nothing like that. It's really like
a school where they indoctrinate you the whole time.
Interviewer:
So, you never attended any type of Sunday service or any type
of
Barbara:
No. In fact, one of the ladies that ran the place, she says,
"Oh, you know, I'm also a chaplain." I said, "Get
out of here! You have chaplains in this place?" You know,
she goes, "Oh, yeah." We thought that was really
funny because we had been going there for quite a while and
we never knew that she was a chaplain or that they even had
one.
Interviewer:
So, no one said, "Why don't you come to our service on
Sunday?"
Barbara:
They don't have services! I never heard of that! They have
classes. You have to go in the course room. You have to take
classes-very expensive classes-or have auditing. But I never
heard of a service of any kind.
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