Ron Hubbard Jr.
May 24, 1983
Vaughn Young appears as a spokesman for
Scientology to refute the claim being made
by Ron D. Wolfe (L. Ron Hubbard Jr.) that
his dad was dead.
of video is in italics.
of L. Ron Hubbard in cowboy attire with a camera]
OF: Believers think of L. Ron Hubbard as a genius
and a saint; detractors call him a fraud and,
according to his own son, one of the biggest con
men of the century.
CAMERA: Whether L. Ron Hubbard is alive or sane
is also up for grabs. Our guests are Ron DeWolf,
who is L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. He split with his father
in 1959 and is now trying to gain control of his
father's estate in the courts. Also with us is
Vaughn Young, a Scientologist for 15 years, a
professional writer now working on an unauthorized
biography of L. Ron Hubbard, Sr. Good to have
you both with us, gentlemen. (to Ron DeWolf) You
think your father is alive?
DeWOLF: I don't really know. Um, the--there will
be a court hearing June 10 that will decide, at
that time the judge will decide whether he's missing
If he were alive, where would he be?
DeWOLF: I haven't the foggiest.
Cold weather? Hot weather?
DeWOLF: It would have to be warm, probably sea
DeWOLF: Could be, that was his old stomping grounds.
Well, you're watching, we'll give you the first
call--313-872-4040 (phone number shown on bottom
of screen). Everybody hold off until we wait and
see if L. Ron Hubbard, Sr. calls in. Going back
a long time ago, when Dianetics first came on
the scene, it was really the first of all the
self-help books, wasn't it?
DeWolf (L. Ron Hubbard, Jr.), former Scientologist]
DeWOLF: Yes, it was, and it was an enormous seller
in the 1950s.
Right. Um, what kind of a man was L. Ron Hubbard,
Sr. then who wrote that book?
of LRH at a desk]
DeWOLF: Quite flamboyant. Uh, at the time he wrote
it in the late '40s, uh, he was pretty broke and,
uh, he had told friends and, uh, associates that
the way to make a, a million was to start a religion.
And that's how he got started. And he wrote the
book Dianetics: Modern Science of Mental Health
at Bay Head, New Jersey in about a month or so.
You were, uh, with him for a long time, involved
in Scientology yourself. How would you describe
what Scientology is all about and what the Church
of Scientology is all about?
DeWOLF: Well, to put it in layman's sort of succinct
terms, um, Scientology, uh, says basically that
74 trillion years ago, uh, everyone willed themselves
into existence and through space opera games,
uh, and science fiction sort of things, they have
created this universe. This is a universe created
by you, me and everybody else. And, uh, now we
find ourselves trapped into bodies, and the goal
of Scientology is to, uh, get untrapped from these
bodies and to return to this god-like state which
is called Operating Thetan.
How do you do that?
DeWOLF: Through, uh, applied philosophy, through,
um, sitting down across from each other in chairs
with e-meters, which is a skin galvanometer with
a meter dial on it and, uh, through answering
questions and asking questions. It, um--this is
supposed to release the various charges and the
problems one has had throughout all of these centuries
and hundreds and thousands of reincarnations to
get the charge off of it as if it was these incidents
were a charged battery; and by doing so, um, this
is supposed to return you to this state of high
In print, I've read that you've described your
father as, uh, the Devil, Hitler, total fraud,
a con man--pretty strong language from a son toward
DeWOLF: Yes, but true.
In what way? In what manner?
DeWOLF: Well, he was very deeply involved in black
magic from early teenage years, uh, which, uh,
was the, the use of drugs and hypnosis as an example;
he used to conjure up these demons and thereby
plug into them or have them plug into him and
a lot of his early writings, which could be called
spirit writing, um, so he was very deeply involved
in black magic as an example, especially from
Aleister Crowley which was an English black magician.
And around 1947 or so he decided that he was the
Beast 666 incarnate, because that was what Aleister
Crowley was and he died in 1947.
Supposedly right now about six and half million
people are involved in Scientology. You think
they're all getting ripped off?
DeWOLF: I think so.
Talk about that a little bit. In what way are
they getting ripped off?
DeWOLF: Well, just from a basic viewpoint of,
of it doesn't deliver. Um, that to me is basic
fraud, it does not deliver. Um, as an example,
you get into what is called the Operating Thetan--or
OT, as Scientology calls it--levels, uh, and,
uh, at various times even clear through the '50s
to present, you should be able to have these abilities
of telekinesis, moving objects around. Um, there's
even been people who have tried to like teletr--teletransport,
walk through walls, um, ESP and this sort of thing.
And I've never seen it able to produce that.
People get happier through Scientology?
DeWOLF: Well, you can get happy, um, through,
uh, having a nice picnic in the park, talking
with your boy or girlfriend. And--
Do some people get happy by going through the
auditing sessions and the counseling of Scientology?
DeWOLF: I would say so, just simply a matter of
talking over one's problems and what have you.
So how can you say if people are getting better,
that they're getting ripped off?
DeWOLF: Because again they are paying money for
claims, they are paying money on claims that,
uh, my father has made and, um, again it's not
Did you make some of those claims yourself when
you were in the church?
DeWOLF: Sure. I was the director of training for
several years, trained a lot of Advanced Clinical
Course people, quite literally hundreds if not
thousands of them.
What's your motivation for trying to get control
of your father's estate?
DeWOLF: The motivation of it is, um, money. It's--
You want money.
DeWOLF: Yeah, the--
You want a piece of the action that he got by
ripping people off.
DeWOLF: Yes. And, uh--
DeWOLF: Yes. It's a--
DeWOLF: It's a matter of law, not of morality,
and a matter of, of, of gathering up the assets.
I'm not--I'm not the only heir.
Now wait a minute, wait. You say your father was
the Devil, he acted like Hitler, he was a fraud,
he was a drug abuser, he was a person abuser,
he's ripped off countless millions of people,
and you want a piece of that action.
DeWOLF: Yes, as far as the--as far as the assets
are concerned, yes.
Why? Why would you even want to go near that money?
DeWOLF: Because I think I can do some good with
What would you do with it?
DeWOLF: Oh, I'd probably get a--use it to get
involved in Special Olympics, get involved in
helping, uh, retarded, handicapped, um children,
and when all of that was done, probably go fishing.
We have a couple of pictures of, uh, property
that's owned by Scientologists, I guess the, the
Church of Scientology. And, uh, they're pretty
magnificent structures. We'll take a look at one
on the screen right now.
Harrison Hotel in Clearwater, Florida]
OF: Uh, this is located in Florida. They, uh,
had some hearings there last year in Clearwater,
Florida as to whether the church should be there
Centre, Los Angeles, California]
OF: There is another picture which is a celebrity--I
guess a place where celebrities go for their auditing,
and this is out in California. What do you think
the estate might be worth right now?
DeWOLF: We figure that it's in the neighborhood
of a billion dollars.
A billion dollars.
Would you like to have a house like that?
DeWOLF: I don't think my wife would like to clean
But if you had some money, you might get a bigger
Okay. Vaughn Young, you're a Scientologist. What
do you think of, uh, the arguments, the motivations,
the definitions that have been co, caused by Ron
YOUNG: Well, a lot has been said and I congratulate
you on bringing out the motivation because it's
actually changed over the number of months; it
was "to protect my father's estate",
other times it was "to protect the heirs".
So now we get down to the nitty-gritty--
What was said was true--
YOUNG: But really, really, what--there's, there's
another aspect to the thing. Um, Mr. DeWolf, um,
is part of--is part of actually another tradition.
You had, a number of years ago you had Clifford
Irving and his biography of Howard Hughes. You
had Janet Cooke and she won a Pulitzer for what
amounted to be a total and complete hoax. We had
the Hitler diaries. What you have here is "The
Hitler Diaries, Part 2". Mr. Hubbard came
out with, uh, his best-selling book, it's now
on the Time magazine bestseller list, UPI bestseller
list, Battlefield Earth, back in October. Mr.
DeWolf followed on this and suddenly his father
was about to move back into the book-selling business
again, as a writer, and--
This is his fiction--
His science fiction book.
YOUNG: And father was petitioned, I believe it
was in November, end of October, beginning of
November. Knowing that his father is private and
does not care to appear. And the same way that
Clifford Irving counted on, on Hughes.
Now let's get specifically what do you think is
going on here?
YOUNG: What I think there is--
You think L. Ron Hubbard, Sr. is alive?
YOUNG: Oh, yeah.
YOUNG: The judge even said last Friday, that he
says as far as he's concerned, he's alive. And,
um, Mr. DeWolf has two weeks to try to disprove
that. And the judge has already said that he believes
that the communications with Mr. Hubbard are sound
[???]. What there is is here is the case of, like
the "Dearest Daddie" story, the "Dearest
Mommie" story, the, the son who tries to
follow in the father's footsteps in whatever way
he can. Um, Mr. DeWolf, as far as the research
that I've had, um, probably is a matter of what
psychologists call transference--
How do you mean that now? Let's be specific.
YOUNG: That, that he takes his own experiences
and ascribes them to another. Um, along the way,
as far as my own research I interviewed, for example,
um--I mean, it's not pleasant but the allegations
have been made towards his father--a woman that
he knows, he was married to her, that, uh, she's
told me the story--she cried, she shook--about
the beating that was administered for 13 hours.
DeWOLF: Good heavens, no--
What's all that about?
DeWOLF: This was a--I don't know which woman he's
talking about but that's--
YOUNG: Carol Latt [????]--
DeWOLF: 13 hours? No, no--
YOUNG: Well, anyway, I have the police report
when the police were finally called in.
Wait-wait-wait-wait-wait--now, what are you trying
to say here, though?
YOUNG: What I'm saying is, is that the things
that have been described, the stories that have
been described about his father, the black magic,
the drugs, the beatings, the frauds--
YOUNG: --are stories from the man's own life.
Didn't the man grow up in that house?
Grew up in the house for a long, long time.
I mean, how, how do you discount all of that?
DeWOLF: Well, what he's trying to say is, is that
he medically speaking from a psychiatric viewpoint,
um, my father's paranoid. So what he's trying
to say is--
Well, how do you know that? You haven't been in
touch with him since 1959.
DeWOLF: No, because as far as he's concerned the
whole world is his enemy. He attacks his enemies
through, uh, a thing called the Fair Game policy.
If you haven't talked to your father since 1959,
how do you know what the state of his mental health
is in? Or do you think--
DeWOLF: Because we have an extreme amount of evidence
to prove it. This was why we, um, why we brought
the petition, um, to see if he was missing or
not. And that's specifically what the petition
is all about.
Well, now, let's get down to it. Do you think
he's missing, do you think he's insane or do you
think he's dead?
DeWOLF: If he is alive, he's mentally incompetent
to handle his own affairs, and we believe he's
being manipulated. Now the first--
DeWOLF: By--we don't really know the specific
number--the specific people that are doing it,
but we're honing in on it now.
YOUNG: Dennis, an important point on that is--
Let me just ask the folks to jump on the telephone.
313 in Detroit, 872-4040. Vaughn Young and Ron
DeWolf, who is L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. Go ahead.
YOUNG (caption--Vaughn Young, Scientologist):
The judge Friday reiterated again that all the
evidence that he's speaking of was thrown out.
There's no evidence left. There's nothing to substantiate
the case that he brought back in November, that
has been actually the podium for him going around
to the media. The judge says as far as he's concerned
he's alive and he's choosing to remain private.
And that's what the judge said in the court was
Let's just put aside for a second.
What do you--how do you describe Scientology to
somebody who's just stepped off of a, a spaceship?
YOUNG: Somebody who just wants to know?
YOUNG: As I say, it's an applied religious philosophy
and the best way to find out is to read a book.
It's, um, it's about people, about life, you know,
it's about you and me, and you just read about
Why has Scientology always been surrounded by
YOUNG: Because back in 1950 when he published
the book he took on, uh--he took on the medical
profession and the psychiatric institute. And
when you said that that was the first self-help
book, that was important. In other words, you,
you could learn about it yourself. In other words,
he undercut it, he, he carried it out to sort
of like in a very democratic fashion. And that
made a lot of people very upset. Plus, the things
that he said about the, the, um--
Well, why has it always been surrounded in controversy?
Why are people always moving? Why are churches--why
is Clearwater or Florida having a debate as to
whether Scientology should stay or go? Why do
people say that they've been threatened and intimidated?
DeWOLF: Fear, force, intimidation and blackmail.
Mr. DeWolf said he personally beat people when
he worked in Scientology. He personally beat them.
He personally intimidated, personally got their
sex lives, personally threw it up to them to hold
everybody in line. Are you saying that--are you
saying that what he is saying there is a lie?
YOUNG: What I'm saying--
Are you saying that's a lie?
He says he beat people--
YOUNG: I don't--listen, I can't say as far as
what he says he did in 1952; I wasn't there. I
So there's a possibility that as a Scientology
teacher or auditor, he beat people.
YOUNG: If he did, it is in clear violation of
all the policies at the time--
YOUNG: --and that's the point. But I do want to
Why are you laughing?
DeWOLF: Standard policy.
YOUNG: What I'm saying is that since 1959, and
he can't blame it on his father, he has committed
fraud, he has beat children, he has--and I've
got statements as far as administering hallucinogenics
to his own children--
YOUNG: He's even--he's even beat his own son who
suffers from Downs' syndrome--
How do you know that?
YOUNG: According to the--I'm telling you, according
to the statements, signed statements and the interviews
that I have. Now, I have evidence; this man has
How can you say that? You haven't even--you need
to put some stuff on the table here, you can't
just say that.
DeWOLF: See, what I'm talking about--
He can't say that--he can't say that. That's not
YOUNG: No, no--[pointing to Ron DeWolf] but he
can say it. This is the point of this. He has
I don't know that he's said anything--
YOUNG: He's said some outlandish things about
He's said that--he's criticized the church--
DeWOLF: I've criticized my father--
DeWOLF: --who is the church as far as I'm concerned,
Okay. Um, so both of you don't have much evidence--you
don't have much evidence about your father, he
doesn't have much evidence about you.
DeWOLF: Yeah, well-- [laughs]
YOUNG: You want the evidence?
DeWOLF: Let's tick--let's, let's tick off some
things which people can look up if they want to.
Objective--one: You have 70,000 documents in federal
court, Washington, D.C. Uh, this was a result
of Scientology's Operation Snow White in 1977
in which they, something like 5,000 Scientology
secret agents invad--infiltrated 136 government
agencies; 11 people are now in jail, including
my father's third wife. Uh, just March 3, just
March 3 you have up in Toronto, Canada, 100 police
officers raided the Scientology main headquarters
in Toronto, and--
Now let must just stop on that for a second. Why
are--why are all these police officers go raiding
YOUNG: I think we need to ask the police that
question, actually, because there's, there's--he
says Toronto, nothing came out of it. The whole
thing is like folding--
--cases of bribery--
DeWOLF: --I know you don't--
Let me get--let me get some folks in on the phone.
Young hands something to the host]
Let me take a look at that while we're talking--
YOUNG: That's the police report on the wife beating.
Let me take a look at that. Hi, there, you're
on PBS Late Night.
#1: Thank you. My name's Dan Devaney.
Go ahead, Dan.
#1: Uh, hi. I'm calling from Houston, Texas.
#1: Okay, um, my question is for, uh, Mr. DeWolf,
and it's concerning any possible connections of
Scientology to the EST training and, um, anything,
um, an offshoot of Scientology.
DeWOLF: Yes, it is. Werner Erhard was a Scientologist,
and the beginnings of EST, uh, are the Scientology
training routines--or in Scientology, they're
Okay, thank you very much. Hi, there, you're on
PBS Late Night.
#2: Uh, hi, Dennis, this is Steve from Denver.
Go ahead, Steve, good to have you with us.
#2: Uh, thank you. Uh, I have a two-part question.
Uh, it concerns an article in a magazine called
The Realist which is put out by a fellow named
Paul Krassner that came out about 10 years ago.
And in the, um--in this issue of The Realist,
Paul Krassner claimed that, um, you, Mr. DeWolf,
were ready to publish this type of exposé
against Scientology but at the last, a certain
moment, you withdrew; and also, there was allegations
apparently, you know, allegedly made by you that
the Justice Department, the government, was infiltrating
Scientology. So I was wondering whether, you know,
why this didn't come about 10 years ago and also
whether the government may have infiltrated and
DeWOLF: I think the government has, for good,
sound criminal reasons, um, and through the period
of 1969-72, 10 years ago when that article thing
came out, I got avalanched on, because 99% of
what my father ever wrote or said about himself
is totally untrue, and one could not perpetrate
or keep up the, the myth that he has, uh, put
across to people and the membership and the public,
uh, when all these facts came out. And I wrote
what thought was a very innocuous article, a few
minor facts about his life, like he didn't graduate
from college even though he said he was a nuclear
physicist, uh, etc., etc. And, um, so, uh, Scientology
was extremely powerful in those days and, um,
I was sort of like the voice in the wilderness
so I was pretty well forced to back off of it
and, uh, sign some documents that said that dear
old Dad was a wonderful fellow and all of that
kind of thing just to protect my children and
my family, I felt.
Do you fear for your life?
DeWOLF: I have at various times.
Do you now?
DeWOLF: Much less than I did, um, and, uh, because
Scientology has always been pretty, uh, pretty
Hmm. Hi, there, you're on PBS Late Night.
#3: Hi, this is John from Fort Wayne.
#3: I want to ask two quick questions of both
gentlemen and then hang up and listen.
#3: I want to ask Mr. DeWolf if he's not a Scientologist
now, then what religion does he esp--espouse?
And I want to ask the other gentleman, um, if
he has always been a Scientologist, and if not,
what was he before?
DeWOLF: Okay, very quickly, my father was very
deeply involved in black magic, Satan activity
and what have you because he wanted to be the
most powerful being in the universe anyhow. Um,
because he had proved to me, quote-unquote, proved
to me that, um, Satan really existed, uh, through
just simple logic I decided, well, then God must
exist. So I'm sort of your basic Christian at
YOUNG: Well, as far as myself, I got into Scientology
in '68 when I was working on my PhD., uh, in California.
Before that, the earliest thing, I guess, before
that was growing up as a Baptist.
Do you--are you on the staff of Scientology?
YOUNG: No, I'm not staff.
Have you ever, uh, conducted sessions?
YOUNG: Yes, I have.
YOUNG: Yes, I have.
So you're an auditor.
YOUNG: Yes, I'm a trained auditor.
And you hit--they hook people up with the little
meters and they hold on to the meters and then
you ask them questions and--
--depending upon how they react, respond to certain
lines of questioning, like a--like a lie detector,
YOUNG: Well, it's, it's--it's a baromatic [???]
reading; you can do it without the meter and you're
trained to do it without--
And you probe that particular area and try to
get people to unblock that which is causing them
YOUNG: According to how they feel about it, their
How much does a session cost?
YOUNG: It ranges from--there's no cost, I've done
an awful lot of auditing myself, I was running
a drug program, as a matter of fact, in a prison
for a long time, um, just as a volunteer, with
no cost--on up to, I don't know, they run $50,
$75, I'm not familiar--
DeWOLF: $300 or better.
Somebody pays $300?
DeWOLF: Um-hmm. Some gentleman called me wanted
back $5735 for 25 hours of auditing.
Hi, there, you're on PBS Late Night.
#4: Hello? Philadelphia, I'm waiting.
Hello, there, you're on the air.
#4: Okay. Hello, my name is Peg Kline, I'm calling
from Philadelphia. I'm very curious about something.
I was asked to make this brief and I will. I have
been a television producer, local television,
for some time now in three or four different cities.
And we have systematically refused to have Scientologists
on because they represented a point of controversy.
Nobody is ever sure of why; however, every time
we air a Scientology program, we get waves of
response; it had to be an equal time problem.
However, what was Mr. Hubbard? I can see, I can
finally see him. Now I can finally see a troubled
child coming out, a troubled, cast-off, neglected
child. I am wondering now, what are you trying
to accomplish? Do you want your father's money,
your fame, or your father's love? What is it you
DeWOLF: It would have to be both, they're all
so true. You see, I'm--I have rather interesting
here; I have--I've been under like a triple whammy
for years. First of all, besides the drug and
hypnosis, because he was trying to make me, at
the time when I was young, the heir apparent.
Drug and hypnosis as a kid used on me by him;
plus being the son of somebody who's famous or
infamous, however you may view it, being the son
of L. Ron Hubbard; plus having Scientology. So
most people just have Scientology to get out of
their head. It took me the last 25 years to slowly
sort all that sort of stuff out.
Are you bitter?
Are you angry?
DeWOLF: I've been very angry at various times,
but I've also found that such emotions and feelings
are, um, quite self-destructive to the person
feeling them. It doesn't do any good to hate.
So my, uh--I'm really pro-truth. I'd like to see
all the facts come out and as I said, if I have
to expose myself in order to expose the real,
honest and true facts of my father and Scientology,
then--then so be it.
Mr. Young, your body language suggests that you're
about to go through the ceiling!
What's the matter over there?
YOUNG: Oh, I mean, he tells it so convincingly
and the--it's still, there's no evidence, there's
no eyewitnesses, there's no documentation that
has been presented into the courts that has been
DeWOLF: Oh, yes there is--
YOUNG: No documentation has been retained by that
court, it's all been thrown out as, as irrelevant--
DeWOLF: It hasn't been thrown out because it wasn't
a part of the court proceedings--
Well, now, what are you talking about and what's
he talking about? What, what evidence?
DeWOLF: We have an awful lot of evidence coming
in on the thing, like--
Why point? Just give me some specifics here.
DeWOLF: I'm talking about his--say, his medical
DeWOLF: Um, the fact that he was a hypochondriac,
the fact that he also, uh, was using illegal drugs,
that, uh, he was being, um, manipulated, the fact
that he really was paranoid from the evidence
that we have, from a pure medical standpoint.
Aren't we all, to a degree?
DeWOLF: Yeah, I would suppose so.
How old is he now?
DeWOLF: He would be 72.
DeWOLF: So you see, this--this petition I filed
on November 10, 1982, uh, was to ascertain whether
or not L. Ron Hubbard was missing or not. Now
coming up June 10, the judge will make his final
DeWOLF: --on that one point.
Well, now Friday, didn't he, uh--didn't a letter--
DeWOLF: --they said he might be, yes.
Didn't a letter arrive in court that was--
--allegedly written in ink that could only have
been doctored up by somebody in February of this
year, and his fingerprint was there and it said--
DeWOLF: Yes, our experts are looking at it--
--and it said--well, somebody else has already
looked at it, right?--
DeWOLF: You see, just--everybody thinks this is
a one-inclusive, one-shot deal, but the, uh, this
ascertaining whether or not my father is missing
or not is only the step one--
Now do you think he's been kidnapped by the Church
DeWOLF: We don't know yet.
But you think it might be a possibility.
DeWOLF: It could be. We do know that he's being
Now, when you say that, what do you mean--he's
DeWOLF: Well, for instance, um, we have some very
recent strong evidence that shows that his funds
were being invested in organized crime--
How do you--
DeWOLF: --in Arizona.
Like--like how so? I mean--
--tell me about that.
DeWOLF: It's in a corporation called--I think
it's called Intercap, in Arizona.
Well, okay now, I don't know anything about the
organization, we want to be very careful about
what we say--
DeWOLF: That was a--that was a financial organization
of my father's, not necessarily that of the Church
of Scientology, so I wanna make that very clear.
The point is that step two, see--step one was
to find out if he's missing or not. Step two,
now--if the court adjudicates him being alive--
DeWOLF: --um, then, uh, we will be filing in the
next three to four weeks, we'll be filing a petition
YOUNG: Who--I'm just curious, like if this has
sort of been, like, planned out, who--who planned
this step one and step two? I'm just sort of curious;
it's a bit unusual, you know.
DeWOLF: No, it's just naturally the basic way
to go. You have to first of all establish if somebody
is alive or not before you can go on to the next
thing. There was a great--there was a great, um,
question about him being alive or not, and the
only thing that kind of--
So you think he's gotta be alive now.
DeWOLF: He could be--is as that once that--once
the court adjudicates that he's alive, for crying
out loud, everybody and their brother is gonna
be looking for him throughout the world.
I don't know--who else was saying he was dead?
DeWOLF: There was an awful lot of questions. You
see, here's an interesting thing--
But-but-but you were the one that raised this
fact that he's probably dead.
YOUNG: That's right.
So who's gonna be looking for him that wasn't
looking for him before you stepped forth and said,
"I think he's dead"? I mean, everybody,
I guess they're still looking for him, those that
were looking for him.
DeWOLF: Yes, yes. To the people inside Scientology,
to the membership, they were saying he was alive,
DeWOLF: --was well, he-
DeWOLF: But to the outside, other courts, they
were saying, "Well, we've had absolutely
no contact with him whatsoever. Um, and if he's
proven to be alive in this present court proceeding,
But you--you were born and raised with him. You
grew up with him. Isn't it his MO, if the heat
gets a little tough, to go lay low for a little
DeWOLF: Through the years, he has--
Yeah, but that--
DeWOLF: --like Howard Hughes.
Yeah, but, I mean, so, so this is nothing new.
He used to do this all the time, when he left
New Jersey and went some place to Arizona--
DeWOLF: Right. He was always cutting and running,
Yeah, so? I mean, what's the big deal? I mean,
he, he's--I mean, he might just be doing that
DeWOLF: Could be.
Hi, there, you're on PBS Late Night.
#5: Hello, this is Robert from Houston, Texas.
Go ahead, Robert.
#5: I would like to get back to some issues. Would
either guest please respond to the Scientologists'
view towards electroconvulsive therapy. And I'll
Okay. Vaughn Young.
YOUNG: I'd like to. It's, it's--it's something
that Mr. Hubbard attacked very strongly very much
in 1950; he found it abusive, he found it medieval,
he found it to be absolutely--I mean, there was
no words that he could not use that were not strong
enough. He was--
Was that of electroshock therapy?
YOUNG: ECT, yes.
Okay. Well, sure--
DeWOLF: I'm against it, too.
Well, I think we all are, all three of us, we
agree here. Hi, there, you're on PBS Late Night.
#6: Hi, my name is Clyde Antha [???] and I'm from
Los Angeles. Um, it's my understanding from what
I've read in the papers here in Los Angeles that
the judge in Riverside County has accepted the
documents that were presented there last Friday
that Mr. Hubbard is indeed alive; and I'd like
to know how Mr. DeWolf will explain that. But
secondly, I'm rather curious as this case has
been going on for quite some time, um, why after
20 years of separation from his father, Mr. DeWolf
has been pursuing a rather costly, expensive legal
pursuit, and I wonder where his finances are coming
That's an--that's an interesting question. Yeah--
DeWOLF: I have, uh, no finances.
So the lawyers are taking it on contingency.
DeWOLF: Well, I can't really mention that, I mean,
with that sort of arrangement. But the, the point
is is that, um, the--it is not--the judge has
not made up his mind yet, and we still have three
weeks to, uh, to make up our mind, but it's like
a fork in a road. All we really wanted to find
out was the decision, what--is he legally alive
or not? And then we would fork off in one direction
or another. That's it--
YOUNG: He told--he told Cable Network News it
was 40% contingency.
DeWOLF: No I did not. [starts laughing]
YOUNG: Okay. Fine.
DeWOLF: --mention, of course not.
Now, you've got the big interview in, like, Penthouse
Now, do they pay you for that interview?
DeWOLF: I haven't been paid for any of those interviews;
no, of course not. I was--I kind of liked that
Penthouse interview, especially the picture. Being
a Hubbard, I wanted to go for the centerfold,
but they said it would take too much makeup and
too much foam rubber, so they just picked the
head shot of me.
Okay, good enough. Hi, there, you're on PBS Late
#7: My name is Noelle Biggs and I'm calling from
St. Petersburg, Florida.
Go ahead, Noelle.
#7: Hi. I watched the Scientology hearings on
television, and I want to know is, if there really
is no such thing as a Fair Game policy, why were
so many of the former Scientologists who testified
so terrified and scared to death?
[to Vaughn Young] You care to explain the Fair
YOUNG: Could I please, first of all, because--
Explain the Fair Game policy.
YOUNG: It's been--it's been mischaracterized,
it really has been. There was--in fact, the thing
that's sometimes pulled out is, um, the early
version. There's been a long, long history of,
of every religion to have its own code to be able
to expel a member of the, of the group, and thereby
afford no protection to that member. In other
words, you leave the protection of the group,
and the Catholics have that, the, the Jews have
that, the--any other group has that. That thing,
what that said and when you read it, you actually
read what it said, and when he--what he, Mr. DeWolf
will say, he says that a person could be, uh,
harmed. No, it says that the person is not afforded
the protection of the church. It says "May
be" by others and not afforded the protection
of the church. In other words, they left the protection,
the fold, and thereby they cannot receive any
other further protection of the church--
Are we talking about--
DeWOLF: They can--
--legal protection or are we talking about mental
or spiritual protection? I mean, we're talking
about a church, we usually talk about spirituality--
YOUNG: Well, there's spirituality. At the same
time, there have been instances in the past where,
like, um, perhaps legal protection might be brought
up on behalf of--
Now the question was, why did it appear--some
hearings were held on television--
DeWOLF: Any, any--any organization that has any
sort of a thing like that in the 20th century
is really wrong, whether it be internal or external.
The question is, why did the people appear to
be scared? Who were testifying against the Church
YOUNG: Mr. DeWolf has said for a long time--
Why do you think that they were scared?
YOUNG: I don't believe they were scared.
DeWolf starts laughing]
Well, they still--are you still on the line?
Are you still on the line? Hello--
DeWOLF: Scared stiff--
#7: Yeah, that's a joke!
That's a joke.
#7: A lie.
Now tell me, where were these hearings held?
#7: Uh, they were held in Clearwater. They were
on cable television--
Okay, that's what I was thinking you were--
DeWOLF: May 5, 1982.
May 5, 1982, did you have it in like--say, what
went down there? What happened?
#7: Well, they, um, the--oh, God, I cannot think;
but the mayor of Clearwater held hearings and
Mr. DeWolf can explain it to you. And people,
not people that had been asked to leave; people
who had, say, had a week's vacation and decided
to leave the church were harassed like crazy;
all sorts of horrible things--you know, they told
them all sorts of horrible things that happened
to them, and these weren't people who were asked
to leave, people that had decided of their own
accord to leave the church--
Okay, now, what do you--what do you--you're down
there in Florida, and, uh--are you in Clearwater?
#7: Right near there.
Well, what do you think of this whole shooting
#7: I think it's--I'm totally against it, and
as far as I'm concerned, from what I've read and
the article in Penthouse magazine, I agree that
it should--that Scientology should be considered
a cult; and I am totally against it.
Yeah? Okay, thank you. Hi, there, you're on PBS
#8: Hi, this is Bill from Rochester. I grew up
in Roches--in Riverside, California, and my view
of this organization is that, one, they charge
a lot of money; I'd like you guys to discuss the
kind of fees that people have to incur to get
involved in this. Two, they have high-pressure
sales, and that makes me question to what extent
they can even call themselves a religion. Um,
the other thing I'd like you to focus on is--it's
obvious that DeWolf has a stake in the outcome
of these legal matters, which I haven't been following.
What is the, uh, potential stake in the outcome
of this other gentleman with you tonight?
Okay, uh, very quickly because we covered it a
little while ago from 0 dollars up to $300 an
hour; both of those figures were mentioned, $75
an hour, that was a figure mentioned. The stake
for Mr. DeWolf is very, very high because he believes
the assets could be as high as a billion dollars.
And Mr. Young will now say what is in it for him.
YOUNG: I get to visit Detroit tonight. [starts
That's one reason, okay. You would like to see
the Church of Scientology continue.
YOUNG: Yes, very much so. And as you said, there's
a--there's an awful lot, there's millions of people,
uh, who also vote in that direction, a lot of
fine people. Um, Mr. Hubbard himself has--he's
been recently been getting proclamations and commendations
from various cities for his work in, uh, drug
abuse areas and for his other contributions. I
think the man has made a contribution and this
should continue. We will always have in an organization
a few instances of individuals that, um, get out
of hand, that are--
When did he get a proclamation? Who gave him a
proclamation? for something he did in the drug
YOUNG: Um, we had, um, Austin, Texas, there's
a proclamation by the mayor there in recognition
of his work.
YOUNG: Yeah. Just a couple weeks ago.
Okay. Was there anything in that question we didn't
YOUNG: I don't think so.
Okay. Hi, there, you're on PBS Late Night.
#9: Uh, hello?
You're on the air.
#9: Okay, I want to ask about--I understand that,
uh, Charles Manson was very involved in Scientology
and that part of his philosophy came up--his Satanistic
views came from Scientology and that was the basis
of his, um, whole philosophy and I want to get
a comment on that.
of Vaughn Young smiling and shaking his head]
Well, interesting. I don't know what the answer's
gonna be, but I heard the same thing. And Mr.
Young is smiling.
YOUNG: You know, that--that one was retracted
in about--corrected back in about 19, um, what
was it about 1973, that there was that rumor going
around, that it was retracted; and I even believe
Mr. Bugliosi [Vincent Bugliosi, prosecutor in
the Manson trial and author of Helter Skelter,
the book about the Manson murders--Sue] helped
out on that. I was not there at that time.
Okay. Any quick comment?
DeWOLF: I think that he was, but I don't know
about the, the all-inclusive basis for all of
Manson's activities, but I do know he was involved.
You know he was involved.
DeWOLF: Yeah, well, some of the people that were
in and around him at the time have, um, walked
and talked, which seems to happen a great deal
even more recently over the past couple of years,
but, um, there was some involvement with Scientology--
Now, let me ask you this question--if your father
is: a) not alive--
--or b) not, you know, sane, you know--
What do you think will happen to the Church of
DeWOLF: I don't really know. Um, people have asked
me that question before, and quite honestly that
would really have to be up to, um, the members,
and, uh, the one thing that I think that's important
here is that the people can believe as they please,
but you can't do as you please. And the problems
that I have had and the, the hypercritical, uh,
activities that I'm, I'm against is these actions
like Fair Game, attack the attacker, etc., etc.,
etc. And, as I said, people, if--you can believe
in cannibalism, as an example, but you can't practice
You're not trying to trade on your father now
and pick up some loot, are you?
DeWOLF: No, I mean, not so far as continuing Scientology
because I don't think it works. But that still
again, under the Constitution is an important
point: People can believe as they want but they
can't do as they want.
Okay--15-second comment, Mr. Young?
YOUNG: I'd just like to say that it's gonna--it's
gonna out that this is, this is "The Hitler
Diaries, Part Two" and he's living on the
fame of his father and on the good name of his
father and, uh, his father is very popular and
recognized, as I said, by individuals and cities.
Gotta go. I thank you both for being with us,
Ron DeWolf and Vaughn Young. We're gonna take
a little break, friends, and when we come back
on the other side, we're gonna talk about the
ultimate in personal computers next on PBS Late
the announcer mentions upcoming shows]