from transcriber are in brackets like
["SB:" marks remarks by Stacy
["UC:" marks untranslated remarks
by Ursula Caberta]
["UC(T):" marks translated remarks
by Ursula Caberta; translation points
marked by slashes]
["BM:" marks remarks by Bob
["[word?]" marks uncertain word
["[xxx]" marks words that could
not be understood at all on tape]
[Time marks given as minutes:seconds in
parentheses; for example, 03:30
means 3 minutes, 30 seconds from beginning
of that part]
[Most pauses and "uh's" deleted]
1 - Questions and Answers
These letters are letters from Scientologists
in Germany, who were asked to write these letters
by one of the top Scientology, uh, intelligence
operatives, whose name is Kurt Weilund[?]. He's
in the part of Scientology which is called the
Office of Special Affairs International. And he
orchestrated this campaign for this German Scientologist
who was having tax troubles, to get granted asylum
in the United States to escape these tax troubles
in Germany. And the way they did it was to have
Scientology business owners, uh, German Scientology
business owners write letters to this woman, Antje
Victore, saying that they refused to give her
a job because she was a Scientologist, and in
Germany you can't have work if you're a Scientologist.
And they wrote the letters in English, so they
could be presented to a judge in the United States,
um, because of course a judge in the United States
can't read German. So they kindly provided them
in English for the judge and made it easy for
her to get asylum.
This letter here is basically a thank-you letter
from Antje Victore to one of the people who helped
her by writing a letter saying that she could
not have a job. And she thanked him for writing
a letter saying that she couldn't have a job so
that she could get asylum in the United States.
Just as a note, one of the things that you have
in your packs is a letter from attorney John Merrett
to the managing assistant US attorney in the middle
district of Florida in Tampa, alerting him to
this fraud and this perjury.
She's very much hoping that the campaign that
Scientology is currently organizing to create
a rift between the German government and the United
States government will not be successful, and
that the United States will recognize, as Germany
has, the threat to our freedoms in this country
that the Scientology organization poses, particularly
to free speech, which has been demonstrated during
her visit here to the United States. [Question
and answer session begins] [Questions simply marked
as "Q:" unless name of questioner given]
(02:26) I'm with the St. Petersburg Times
newspaper. I was invited last night to speak with
some Scientology officials down the street, as
well as a couple of local Scientologists, who
said former citizens of Germany-who say there
are very real problems with Germans to find employment
in that country because of the sect filter and
because of how the sect filter is spilling over,
not only into public organizations but into the
private sector as well. Can you respond to that?
(03:05) 'Sect filter' is a word coined by
the Scientologists. Because it would mean that
there are many, many groups that could be called
'sects' and it would be a [xxx] this filter would
be used for that.
This declaration, this issue has been developed
in her department, the declaration that was instituted
on the demand of different companies in Germany.
These demands from these companies were based
on intents of Scientologist members to introduce
into these companies technologies from Ron Hubbard.
And these type of technologies professed by
Ron Hubbard are in contradiction of business management
policies and techniques in Germany, and can very
well be judged by this lady because she has studied
economics and business.
And the goal and aim is, and can be read in the
book of Ron Hubbard, and in the directions that
he has written and given, for members of WISE,
to introduce the ideology of Ron Hubbard and that
technology into the different companies in Germany.
The ideology is the technology [xxx]. And
that does not stick to the other, the policies
in the companies, at least as she was told by
management of those companies.
There were several incidences additionally
in these companies, that had led to the dismissal
of the Scientology members in and employees of
those companies. That had nothing to do with them
being members of Scientology. [Acted?] like Scientologists,
(07:11) but they tried to influence other employees
and management to the extent that they became,
should become members of Scientology, and eventually
the whole company would become a member of WISE.
Many did not want to see that happen.
The analysis of the department has shown that
many people came to Scientology because they had
been invited into seminars and training workshops,
on communications training. And that's the same
type of communications training that you do in
the Scientology, so-called church. (08:27) It's
a way to cross a bridge into Scientology. And
many companies just wanted to do their own business,
wanted to pursue their own business interests
and did not want to become involved into any Scientology.
So the managers of those companies, these
WISE companies, companies that are members of
WISE, offer that type of training without saying
what it's all about. In particular, without mentioning
that the aim is that they become Scientology members
and eventually members of the organization [and?]
These companies came to the department, to this
lady, in order to ask and inquire about how to
protect themselves. On the one hand, wondering
about how to defend themselves against being subverted
by Scientologists in their own house. But also
to protect their own rights and decision-making
process, because once you are a member of Scientology
and you have these as employees, the whole thinking
process changes. And therefore intends to change
the decision process in the company.
Therefore we have developed this declaration
which members of Scientology or companies may
not sign. Must not sign. And it functions and
it works. (11:24) And this declaration, you will
not read the word Scientology. It only is about
the technology of L. Ron Hubbard.
So many companies who want to have their employees
participate in training seminars, but not be in
the danger of participating in Scientology seminars,
and not become Scientologists, and therefore and
thereby protect their own employees, And these
companies sign and the employees sign this declaration
that they will not do and participate in any seminars
based on the technology of Ron Hubbard.
And this is falsely being converted into a
question of religion. I've never heard from Scientologists
that the technology of Ron Hubbard is their ideology.
Their religion, I'm sorry. As internally they're
always talking about technology, but it's never
been heard to the outside in public that their
seminars are religious. So participation in one
of these communications seminars being a religious
seminar is unheard of.
Two members of Scientology have sued her department
because of this declaration. And Scientology Germany
followed suit. So therefore it became clear that
by going against this declaration which does not
mention Scientology at all, [xxx] the Scientology
organizations and the members involved, it became
clear what the connection is. The church, the
Scientology church, has filed the suit, which
is nonsense in respect that nobody will come to-get
the idea that they are involved in the communication
seminars. In business [and economics?]. As Scientology
church. And so there in those cases, and everybody
knows that they're working according to the technology
of L. Ron Hubbard and they will not be presented
with that declaration.
And that's the way the court in Hamburg also saw
it. And declined to review that suit. As non-acceptable.
The Scientology suit is an unacceptable suit.
Those two members have had suit, also were denied
the suit, the demand. Because the court did not
see that they were hindered by any way in doing
their duties and performing their job in Germany.
Because nobody forces them to do their jobs and
services according to the technology of Ron Hubbard.
Therefore the discussion around this suit
and this issue has not been terminated yet. Scientology
has appealed against that decision. The decision
is pending. It'll be interesting to see what members
of Scientology will argue, for communications
seminars to have a religious context.
[The?] buildings that house Scientology personnel.
On the front they call it the Church
The building does show 'Church of Scientology'.
However, the companies, WISE companies, do not
(00:37) So when they come for your assistance,
these Scientologists who want to get out, do they
say that Scientology is a religion, or is it something
Very interesting and very good question. Because
not one of those members
None of these members
has been in Scientology because of religious reasons.
One of the highest former members that left the
organization in Hamburg specifically declared
that religion has nothing to do with it; it is
only business purposes.
(01:49) Could you delineate or identify those
activities of Scientology that the German government
considers illegal or reflective of political extremism?
In Germany the government has to
and analyze whether a political organization tends
into what direction, according to their writings
and their publications.
So these internal directions given by the
founder of any organizations to their members
is the most important priority to be analyzed
in order to judge what they are. It has to be
proven that these guidelines and directions are
So you first want to prove
want to analyze
and investigate whether the ideology, directions
and everything being put forth by the founder
and the organization their members may go against
the democratic freedom in the country.
That has to be seen, also, in the light of
the German past, both West and East, I'm a former
West and East German. (04:02) So you will take
a very close look at any ideology that professes
the so-called superman, in a type of ideology
that's being professed here. And that's an ideology
we have seen in Germany before. We had enough
That's a particular area of discussion that
may be difficult with American citizens, because
the United States has never gone through an experience
like this. In Germany and in Europe it's a lot
(05:05) What has Scientology done to you personally
to obstruct your efforts to investigate the organization?
What have they done to you personally?
That's not important. I'm not the center of
questioner: I understand
(05:26) On a daily basis, something's going
on. Investigation of her whole life, down to when
she was born, ten years old. They investigate,
in these investigations they found a person who
as a child, nine years old, ten years old, had
been stealing a couple of apples in a farm.
(06:05) Is your department just for Hamburg,
or is it countrywide?
Now, countrywide and Europe-wide.
Very close connection, Europe-wide, Germany-wide,
Europe-wide, and close connection [with?] France.
Everybody looks to Germany in this matter, but
in France things are really happening on Scientology.
(06:40) Hopefully, when the new President
of the United States is elected, he won't be so
infatuated with John Travolta.
You have a question?
[xxx] I love this.
You referred to the so-called Superman. Is
that a reference to L. Ron Hubbard, or to
Superman is the ideology. A reference to the
book Mein Kampf. Makes specific reference to the
superiority of a person or people.
When you read Ron Hubbard's book, it becomes
very clear very fast that that's the same type
of ideology of superiority. And in this respect,
Germans are obviously much more sensitive to these
questions than America [would be?]. When I read
the first time of this RPF project, it became
clear that they would have to have that type of
ideology as well.
The discussion yesterday came about that RPF,
these types of concentration camps that are possible
here in the US, they are impossible in Germany
and Europe. Absolutely impossible.
(09:23) I had asked a question earlier about
how Scientologists get a job in Germany, and you
ended by saying something about 'only in the Bavarian
Bavaria, a federal state in southern Germany,
takes a little longer, but when they do things
they do them 100%. 110%.
Members of Scientology do work in various
state organizations as teachers and in public
The problem is that these people, particularly
when they're teachers, immediately start their
communications training approach. And then they
find out that parents are not very fond of that
idea. And then you have to talk about it. So Bavaria
concluded, look, to prevent before something happens.
(11:01) Can a Scientologist walk into the
tax collectors' office in Hamburg, and if qualified,
get a job?
Oh, sure, because he's not being asked whether
he is in Scientology or not. Anybody can go in
and get the job. [xxx] [Nothing you can do?]
And if you find out later that he's a Scientologist,
does that mean that he's terminated from employment?
No. No way.
If he doesn't do his job, but becomes 90%
working during his job time in Scientology matters,
So that doesn't make any difference
to any person who has been employed, and you later
find out it's a Mafia person. [xxx] [It's not
a?] general question, it's only the particular
(12:10) So are you saying that, if the Scientologist
starts to impose their communication technology
or Hubbard technology on fellow employees or children
in a school, then they lose their job?
No. [xxx] It's not automatically they lose
their job, but the matter will be investigated,
then conclusions will be drawn from that. So in
Hamburg they didn't have a case, but in other
federal states there were some cases like this.
But always with something really happening to
the children, with the children.
(13:10) Well, in the United States, if a public
teacher imposes her Christian beliefs or teaches
the Bible on the students, they're fired.
(13:24) I think your answers concerning this
whole issue of Scientologists being able to get
a job or not get a job is probably the most misunderstood
element here. When, if at all, does a Scientologist
go into a German company and get refused a job?
When, if at all?
It doesn't exist like this. In other words,
a person-even if they come to a company and identify
themselves as Scientologist-as long as they qualify
for the job, they will be hired. Nothing to do
with being a Scientologist.
(14:24) We're being told, I've been told by
many Scientologists there that have been coming
up to me and complaining about my friendship with
you, that in Germany if they're a Scientologist
they can't get work.
(in German): Nonsense.
That's what they're saying.
Is that another lie [by?] the Scientologists?
(14:48) Some people in, many people have come
but some she knows, that have been coming over
here. All the people she knows that live today
here in this country or in the area, all people
that have problems because of tax evasion and
other similar things where they have been [sued?]
by the courts.
(15:24) And they're just saying, they're just
saying, they're saying that the problem was discrimination
as a Scientologist. But it's the same as this.
[Stacy gestures, apparently towards Antje Victore
That she's saying one thing but in fact it's
Since you're the most knowledgeable person
[interrupted by UC]
I'm happy for whatever you know, because I've
seen many people on the streets [xxx] talk to
her. Told her, you know, that they lost their
job in Germany and couldn't work there. And she
says okay, give me your name and your address
and I'll look that you get one over there. [xxx]
[Won't give the name?] Because she knows that
person knows that if she gives her name, then
you dig a little bit into it, the story is untrue.
(16:32) Also a campaign some years ago in Germany
that Scientologists could not get their children
into regular schools in Germany, nonsense. She's
grateful for every child of a Scientologist that
goes to public schools and not attends Scientology
Problem was, you know, that Scientologists
wanted to found a school that was run according
to technology of Ron Hubbard. And the laws on
private schools are very strict in Germany. And
the states surrounding Hamburg that tried to do
it and they were denied their requests because
they could not decide, when questioned by the
state, what kind of school they wanted to have-elementary
school, middle school, high school, couldn't answer
the question. And Ron Hubbard, obviously they
couldn't answer the question because they don't
differentiate it in Hubbard's technology.
And they went over further north to Denmark,
because the laws to initiate private schools are
much easier. So all children from Hamburg and
surrounding states go attend that school in Denmark.
[xxx] They had to tell these people, these parents
that they could be sued under German law, because
there is the requirement that you have to attend
school in Germany. In Germany. So the Danish school,
according to German school law, is not recognized
in Germany. So they can be sued by any court in
(19:44) Well, in the United States, if you
want to have a private school, you still have
to comply with state law.
Just like in Germany. But you're so knowledgeable
about Scientology, have you been asked to testify
before the State Department or any congressional
committee in the United States about what really
is happening in Germany?
(in German): No.
(20:08) In fact, they've refused to let her
testify. We've asked them, we've, we've, we've
urged them, we've told them her credentials, and
they've refused to let her.
And that was in June.
And that was in June.
Beginning of 1998, she had the opportunity
to talk to members of the Senate when she was
[UC appears to correct "Senate"
to "Congress"] Congress members, when
she was over here with the respective Congress
members from Germany.
(21:01) What is the current relationship between
United States and Germany because of what Scientology
has lied about?
German government as well as the Chancellor
clearly follows what the Supreme Court has said,
[UC appeared to correct the translator's
use of "Chancellor" to "President"]
President of Germany, clearly follows that line
that Scientology is not a
It is a political organization.
Rather than a religion?
Rather than a religion.
(22:01) But what's happening, I can also answer
you because I attended a Congressional hearing,
of the House International Relations committee,
which was absolutely orchestrated by Scientology.
The entire hearing room was filled with Scientologists,
the people who testified before the committee
were hand-picked by Scientology, clearly because
they all talked about the terrible discrimination
that Scientology is suffering in Germany and France.
The whole hearing was about the discrimination
that minority religions [crosses fingers while
saying 'minority religions'] , with particular
concentration on Scientology, are suffering in
Germany, France, Belgium and Austria. And there
were several committee members who have also clearly
been briefed, by the Scientologists, and are now
demanding several things. One, they're demanding
economic sanctions from the World Trade Organization
against Germany and France, for their positions
specifically on Scientology. They're demanding
censure by the United Nations, and they're pushing
two bills specifically condemning, that would
specifically condemn Germany and France, and Austria
and Belgium, for their position on Scientology.
Of religious persecution.
And they ask the President to censure Germany.
In that bill.
And they've asked, yes, that the President
of the United States censure Germany for Germany's
position on Scientology.
that, during approx. the first five minutes
of this part, the translator is not translating,
and UC is speaking herself in English.]
Going back to another issue for clarification
purposes, when you're talking about the technology
of L. Ron Hubbard as it relates to a WISE company
or its involvement in German companies, I believe
you're speaking about the so-called management
technology of L. Ron Hubbard.
Yes. But it's all the same. Management technology,
[xxx] technology, all the same.
Well, but I think it's important to make a
distinction, because there is an educational technology
of L. Ron Hubbard as well as a management technology.
But it's the same. All the same.
Yeah, that's the same as
All the same. All of it. All starts-
What she's not talking about, what they're
not talking about, is the auditing technology.
No. Auditing. The courses, all begin with
the communication course. It's studying technology,
management technology, all the same. Not auditing
She's differentiating between admin and tech,
is what she's differentiating between
Administrative technology is what they're
talking about, not the auditing technology.
OK. Because when you use the blanket term
'L. Ron Hubbard technology', to me, that includes
the so-called religious technology of Scientology
as well. And I think you have to be careful to
distinguish among those two different
(01:17) But for me, there is no religion technology
in Scientology. Nothing. Nothing. That's the difference.
Nothing. There is nothing what-but-that I'm thinking
is religion. Nothing. Auditing is brainwashing.
Well, here, in this country, there is a religious
element that people see and I-
Well, they've been granted tax exemption as
a religious organization. That's 1993, [xxx-UC
talks simultaneously] religion.
But [xxx] They are from the US, they are from
France, they are from Germany. Nobody told me,
nobody, that he feels auditing was a religion
thing. Nobody. And I believe the people came out
from Scientology. I don't believe the people are
telling what they are doing right now, the Scientology
people, in. I, for me, all the people coming out
to tell me what happened with them in, they are
the people I believe.
(02:15) Can you estimate how many people you've
talked to that came out of Scientology?
Oh, I don't know.
Was it ten?
A hundred? UC: Yes. More. Yes, all and all
Is it more than a hundred?
I think so, yes. [We don't?
You don't count?
No, we don't know, any statistic [on that?]
I think you should do that. I think you should
[Is a?] statistics [xxx] [do some?] Hubbard
technology there [xxx]
I think you should also keep statistics on
how many Scientologists
I must do that
are working in Germany.
I am doing right now, writing my new report for
the Parliament in Hamburg. I have to do it [xxx]
(02:58) Well, you know, I think it's important
to understand also, you know, Germany doesn't
really-and neither does France-feel the need to
defend itself against these, what they consider
to be utterly ridiculous charges that are being
trumped up by Scientology. And I think this visit
of Ursula's to the United States is an important
experience because I think that, in Germany and
France, they don't realize that anyone in this
country is taking what Scientology is saying seriously.
And I think it's important for Ursula to see that
in the United States Scientology has made, you
know, has gotten a foothold, in people's minds
in what they're trying to position themselves
as. In the United States, people are buying it.
(03:56) When you have a subcommittee having
a congressional hearing as you describe in June,
then somebody needs to take it seriously.
They're trying to do this PR campaign against
Germany and against France based on lies.
And it's working to a certain
It's working. You know, listen to what Bob just
said. 'Oh, but you have to differentiate between
the technology and the religious beliefs.' There
aren't any religious beliefs. But even Bob Minton
is saying it. I mean
voices] it's incredible to me. [unintelligible
voices] It blows me away when you say that.
Hey, boss, we have to [learn?] a lot.
(04:35) Are you here because you're on a personal
visit as a vacation, or
Yes. Like a vacation.
are you here as a spokesperson for the German
No. Like a vacation, and like, to talk about if
it's possible to do something like Lisa McPherson
Trust in Hamburg too, or in [other places?]
(04:56) I'm still a little confused about
when the declaration is used in Germany. The so-called
sect filter. When does that come into play? When
No, he means-
begins translating again]
When you're applying for a public job?
begins speaking in German again]
Only upon request, when [they?] ask for counsel.
[xxx] To protect themselves, private companies
come to her department-how can we protect ourselves
against what's going on? Then we suggest
So, in other words, a company comes to your
office and says, I need, I'm concerned to make
sure that Scientologists don't infiltrate my company?
(in English again): Yes.
That's when it happens.
What about applying for a government job.
Do you have to sign [it then?]
The Hamburg government has introduced this
declaration in order to protect their employees.
Just the Hamburg government, or
Bavaria also. Berlin. The state of [xxx]
The discussion goes that the German government
may [introduce?] that Germany-wide for everybody
who is offering seminars.
But that's not a government job.
No. We don't want
If you know the tricks
of Scientology, and the
Very important and very clear to make a point.
From the German point of view, we are dealing
with an organization and ideology against our
Constitution. And it's a public requirement public
necessity and requirement that this ideology not
being distributed in any state, any government.
We don't want a Germany again someday who introduces
the ideology of a supreme minority of man. And
we do not want again any concentration camps even
if they're called, then, 'RPF'.
(08:28) I've got a quick question
was curious if your government, or if there's
any type of relief or assistance program that
your government may offer to people who are trying
to get out of Scientology.
There's a network in Germany, state departments,
[government departments?] and different churches
like the Catholic and the Protestant churches,
and private initiatives mostly initiated by former
members. And we have network around Germany where
we can help each other. [Not a program yet?] She's
discussing with the German government, what ways
are there to make it a program. Not only for former
members of Scientology, but also for other organizations
(10:11) Can you estimate how many Scientologists
there are in Germany today?
8000. 600 in Hamburg.
(10:19) We have some WISE organizations that
are very successful, very powerful, very rich,
here in Florida. Sterling Management, of course,
we have David [Singer's?] organization with chiropractors.
We have Concerned Businessmen. That's a front
organization, a political organization that is
trying to gain political strength. And you have
Applied Scholastics. Are all those effective in
Germany, and do our local organizations have any
impact throughout the world?
Yes, they have tried to do it, but in Germany
not very successfully. WISE groups are also only
the front shell, in order to break into society
and break it up.
(11:29) Okay, like David Singer, with his
organization-chiropractic. He contributed tremendous
amounts of money to the defeat of our former mayor,
[Rita Garvey?]. And he was unsuccessful, his money
went down the drain, but they're throwing money
at her campaign, and they have been very active
in this latest referendum on July 11 with the
Scientologists have everything at stake. If they
had won, we would have built the playground for
them here at the Coachman Park, there would have
been no stopping them. But now, I think that they've
suffered a tremendous political defeat, and with
the firing of the city manager, I don't know that
they'll ever be able in our generation to achieve
what they had achieved up till now. They'll
They've taken a terrific political defeat.
(12:36) I've got one
I'm sorry, I've
got one last question. And this might be rather
sensitive, but are you aware of any investigations
by your government police or any political investigations-private
investigations-into the death of a Scientologist
trying to leave Scientology, similar to the death
of Lisa McPherson? Or an imprisonment, similar
No. In this form, not, no. Oh, we have a lot of
deaths in members of Scientology, but no. Not
A lot of deaths of members of the Church of
[xxx] You can't prove it, you know, but all of
a sudden you find these dead Scientologists in
the street in Hamburg.
Dead on the street?
There was one lady found on the street, [xxx],
she had some court action against her, and she
was-I don't know what you call it-cut open and
(14:28) And they found it on her, in particular
they found a liver as big as only, only the worst
alcoholics have. It was kind of unexplainable
to the prosecutor, because supposedly they don't
drink any alcohol. [Must be?] a connection with
all the tablets and all the different type of
strange diets they have. Very similar case in
Bavaria, same symptoms [xxx] So it's very clear
[xxx] and it has been proven before that practices
by Scientologists are very unhealthy.
(15:34)We're gonna end now, and everybody
can have some coffee, [xxx] refreshments