December 29, 1998
Beebe is interviewed.
LEWIS: Coming up on our show today--we talked
about Scientology yesterday. Man, what a show
that was! We had only planned to talk about that
for a half-hour and we ended up doing the whole
show about it. It was fascinating. And there was
one guy that we didnt get a chance to talk
to yesterday. You may remember sort of the, these
little subplots that were going on. One of them
was, we tried to get to this, hold of this Cult
Awareness Network because we wanted to find out,
do--are there people that are, you know, officials
that are concerned about the safety of people
in Scientology? Do some people consider it a cult?
Well, we got a hold of the Cult Awareness Network,
and after speaking to them about, for about 15
minutes and having them assure us that the Scientology
was not a cult, the--we found out that the woman
on the phone was a Scientologist and that the
Cult Awareness Network is now--it wasnt
but it is now owned by the Church of Scientology.
So theres all sorts of things. Anyways,
we were trying to get a hold of the guy who originally
started the Cult Awareness Network and didnt
know where he was, because it hadnt always
been owned by the Church of Scientology. Well,
we finally got a hold of him, and were gonna
have him on the show today, kind of wrap things
up and get the last person the last kind of straw
to this whole story about whats going on.
LEWIS: Jim Beebe is joining us, and he is a former
Scientology member and also a former volunteer
with the Cult Awareness Network who, he has just
informed us, used to be this independent, I guess,
organization looking into cults and providing
information, just collecting articles, and if
people called they had information on different
organizations, and Scientology being one of them.
Well, Scientology has since bought out the Cult
Awareness Network and now they operate it.
BEEBE: When I went to work for CAN, I thought
I knew something about cults because of my involvement
with Scientology; but I quickly found out that
I had a lot to learn.
LEWIS: And when was this? How long ago was this?
BEEBE: OK, I was a CAN staff member, an actual
staff member, from, um--for about a year and a
half, from December until we were forced to close
in, in June of 1996.
BEEBE: All that CAN did was make available information
that had been written in different publications
about different groups.
BEEBE: Thats all CAN did. And in some cases,
CAN could refer people to former members of different
LEWIS: I see.
BEEBE: What happened to CAN was that--well, CAN
was harassed right into bankruptcy by the Church
of Scientology. The Church of Scientology had
been getting away with an array of frauds and
crimes that were truly appalling, and all on tax-exempt
money. One of the things they did was, they spent
a lot of money harassing CAN. They filed over
50 frivolous lawsuits against CAN, a whole series
of actions. They finally financed a bogus lawsuit,
the Jason Scott case, and this forced CAN right
into bankruptcy. The bankruptcy court--
LEWIS: You mean they couldnt afford to fight
BEEBE: Exactly. They didnt have--Scientology
has a lot of money. They will spend any amount
of money, uh, to harass anybody they perceive
as an enemy, you see. Uh, and CAN could not fight,
fight this off.
LEWIS: What exactly, real quick, what was this
Jason Scott case that did em in?
BEEBE: Um, Jason Scott--Jason Scotts mother
got involved with a, a, some offbeat Pentecostal
church, and she dragged her kids into it, three
kids, OK? Uh, it didnt take her long to
figure out that she was in a destructive group
and she wanted out. She got out; however, her
kids were still in it. Uh, this Pentecostal group
programmed her kids to believe that their mother
was possessed by Satan and that they should not--they
should leave her house. Now some church members,
as I understand it, took her kids in. And so heres
this young mother, and her kids believe she is
possessed by Satan, right? The kids wont
BEEBE: So she called a woman who happened to be
an affiliate of CAN, the Cult Awareness Network.
Ultimately she engaged a cult counselor, whose
name is Rick Ross, to come and work with her kids,
to, to, to try and persuade her kids that she
was not possessed by Satan and they really--really
ought to come home. OK, he did work with these
kids, and the younger kids did come home. There
was an older boy, about 17 or 18; he balked at
this and in fact he went to the police saying
he had been kidnapped. Well, Rick Ross and some
other guys the mother had engaged were arrested,
there, they were--then they were released. Uh,
and then guess who came along? The Church of Scientology
got wind of this, and they got a hold of Jason
Scott, who is the older boy who went to the police,
LEWIS: And was still at this Pentecostal Church.
BEEBE: They dangled a million dollars in front
of Jason Scott and, and then talked him into a
lawsuit against the Cult Awareness Network and
against Rick Ross, OK? They claimed the Cult Awar--the
Cult Awareness Network was behind all this.
BEEBE: So, uh, a Scientologist lawyer handled
this whole case. They financed it, and it went
to a trial. The tri--the jury in this trial was
not permitted to know that Scientology was financing,
was behind this case. Um, they came down with
a million dollar award against Rick Ross and a
million dollar award against the Cult Awareness
Network. That forced the Cult Awareness Network,
CAN, right into bankruptcy. We had to close with
an hours notice. The judge put CANs
assets up for sale. The assets were primarily
office stuff. And, um, the public at large did
not know anything about this. Primarily the only
people who did know about this were, were the
Church of Scientology.
BEEBE: And agents from the Church of Scientology
bought the CAN assets for 20 thousand bucks, which
included the name and the phone number. So today
they are operating the Cult Awareness Network;
and if your daughter gets lured into some cult
and somebody says, "Why dont you call
CAN or the Cult Awareness Network for information?"
and you call there, guess who youre gonna
be talking to? Members of the Church of Scientology,
one of the most destructive cults out there.
LEWIS: Well we know that, because we talked to
them yesterday. laughing
LEWIS: (?????) side--
BEEBE: You see how--how outrageous this whole
LEWIS: Jim? I assume you considered, because you
were in this church and you got out and you offered
yourself as a volunteer--
LEWIS: That the, the Church of Scientology in
your mind is a cult--
LEWIS: I want to know what that means. What does
BEEBE: Well, a cult is a, a group that uses deceptive
and coercive means to, to recruit people into
a belief system. Um, there are a lot of groups
around that are considered cults that fit into
LEWIS: Any that we--
BEEBE: Many of them are religions but not necessarily
all of them are. There are business cults out
LEWIS: Are there some that we would know by name?
BEEBE: Oh, sure. Groups that are considered cults?
BEEBE: Oh, for example--well, some of the groups
that we used to get the most calls on were, of
course, the Church of Scientology. Uh, another
one was the International Churches of Christ;
we got a lot of calls on them. Now, thats
not to be confu--people get them confused with
The Church of Christ; they are not The Church
BEEBE: And they are not The United Church of Christ,
which is the old congregational church.
BEEBE: They are the International Churches of
Christ. They take on the name of whatever city
theyre in--the Chicago Church of Christ,
the Miami Church of Christ.
BEEBE: Um, this is a very coercive, destructive
group; they particularly, they target a lot of
college kids, they hang around college campuses.
LEWIS: Now, after learning what you said you thought
you knew about cults, but after getting involved
with the Cult Awareness Network you realized you
hadnt, do you still consider the Church
of Scientology to be right up there?
BEEBE: Oh, yeah, theyre one of the most
destructive, greedy cults in the world, yeah.
LEWIS: Now, you said they took over the asset--or
took over the Cult Awareness Network, bought them
because they were in default or whatever.
LEWIS: And--now I understand there were some files
or something that, uh, were purchased--
BEEBE: Yeah. Let me just, um, finish up on that.
Now Jason Scott, who won the million dollar award,
he quickly realized that he wasnt going
to get a dime and that Scientology had used him.
And he, he himself nullified the award against
Rick Ross; he is now getting counseling from Rick
Ross. He tried to nullify the award against CAN;
the judge said, "No, you cant nullify
this award." So its, its still
out there up in the air. Now a big area of contention
are the CAN files--never mind "The X Files",
these are the CAN files--
LEWIS: (laughs) Sounds similar.
BEEBE: Yeah, in the CAN files are a lot of--see,
most everybody that called CAN asked for and were
assured of confidentiality. But very often we
took down their names, their addresses, for different
reasons, and all of this is in the CAN files,
and this is what Scientology is trying to get
a hold of. They want to get these names, OK? They
want to find out who called CAN about them. And
the, the files are still in a warehouse, OK? There
are over 300 boxes of, of CAN files--I was just
over there the other day for a particular thing.
And CAN is trying to seize them as part of the
assets, but when people found out that this cult
might get a hold of their names and addresses,
BEEBE: And the cults are--the files are still
there. Now Scientology is trying now to make another
grab for em. And, um--
LEWIS: What do you contend was their primary goal
in taking over the CAN?
BEEBE: Well, their primary goal is to take over
this whole planet. I mean, at the core of this
LEWIS: Now, Jim--
BEEBE: Cult, is a secret, very bizarre world domination
scheme. Im not kidding you. This is a--
LEWIS: Youve got to be!
BEEBE: This is a Nazi cult, OK? This is a Nazi
cult, complete--theyve got their own mad
messiah, L. Ron Hubbard. Theyve got their
own SS, which is called the Sea Org, S-E-A. Theyve
got their own Gestapo, which is called the Office
of Special Affairs, the OSA. Theyve got
their own little concentration camp called the
RPF, or the Rehabilitation Project Force. When
you--when you screw up in Scientology, you get
sent to this little concentration camp of theirs.
LEWIS: All right.
BEEBE: I--I mean, really, its, its
a Nazi cult set-up.
LEWIS: OK. Jim, I tell you what, I would ask you
to hang out with us for just another minute or
so, but well be back. Youre listening
to "Lewis at Large" on AM-850, WRUF.
LEWIS: This is "Lewis at Large" on AM-850,
WRUF, and a good Tuesday afternoon to you; thank
you very much for joining us. We are once again
kind of wrapping the stuff up on the Church of
Scientology--fascinating, absolutely fascinating
stuff and the stories coming out of the church
from the former members and so forth. And Jim
Beebe is one of those; he was a Scientologist,
and also got involved with the Cult Awareness
Network, which was--two of the things that kind
of sent shivers up my spine yesterday was---one,
that we read that people who spoke out against
them become targets; now we dont know this
is true, but this is what we hear from a lot of
people. And that, you know, they will begin to
report the crimes about you, both--what was it,
real and unreal?
BEEBE: None--known and unknown--
LEWIS: Known and unknown (laughs). So we got a
little worried that theyd be reporting unknown
crimes about us; our known crimes were enough.
And also, the fact that after we looked all over
and found this Cult Awareness Network and thought,
well, well call and get some information
and see, you know, if they have a lot of stories.
And its almost like calling the Better Business
Bureau on a mechanic youre gonna take your
car to, only to find out the mechanic owns the
Better Business Bureau. So, you know, of course
theyre saying, "Yeah, hes the
greatest mechanic in town!" Well, the Church
of Scientology owns the Cult Awareness Network.
They didnt use to--they didnt set
this up--but there was this Cult Awareness Network;
they went in and, through some means that Jim
Beebe was explaining to us, now, anyways, own
the Cult Awareness Network, all these files that
went along with it of people who had called up
to complain or ask questions--names and numbers
and so forth. And also, Jim, there were secrets
about the church?
BEEBE: Well, uh, well, Im not sure what
LEWIS: Well, were there things about the church
that they didnt want the public to know?
BEEBE: Well, Scientology has a lot of secrets
they dont want the public to know.
LEWIS: But did the Cult Awareness Network have
BEEBE: Well, no, I think that--primarily all the
Cult Awareness Network did was collect--most of
the information collected was, was in the public
domain, magazine and newspaper articles and stuff
like that. Now, people would, would send stuff
to, all kinds of stuff on Scientology. Ill
tell you a funny incident that happened to me.
Um, I, I was on the phone taking calls, and--and
one day I had a call from somebody who wanted
information on, on Scientology. Now in our office
we had boxes of stuff that people had sent in,
and we didnt have time often to go through
it. And at my feet under the desk was this box
of stuff, and it kept getting in my way as I was
making this phone call, and I finally kicked the
box; and out of the box dropped the OT III course--course
pack. It costs thousands of bucks to get to this,
LEWIS: Oh, I heard about this yesterday about
how certain--you had to pay so much to get certain
courses and stuff.
BEEBE: Right. Well, here was the--here was the
secret course pack that somebody had sent in,
it was right at my feet as Im talking to
this caller. And I, I started laughing so hard,
I had to ring off the call and ask them to call
back later (laughing).
LEWIS: And so there it was. Can you tell us what
it was or--?
BEEBE: Whats that?
LEWIS: What the course--
BEEBE: Oh, the big secret?
BEEBE: Oh, yes. Well, um, that is very bizarre.
Um, you have to understand that the lower level
people in Scientology know nothing about the big
secret. The, the big secrets are not revealed
until they get to the, the OT courses. And this
is after they paid in probably, one hundred, two
hundred thousand bucks at least.
BEEBE: OK? And then the big secrets are revealed
to em. But the people who have taken the
secret courses cannot discuss it even among themselves.
So these are very, very--is, what it is, is a
very bizarre extraterrestrial alien plot that
L. Ron Hubbard cooked up. His son claimed that
he came up with this stuff when he was high on
drugs, and I believe it. Its very, very
bizarre. It would be hard for me to explain it
to you here.
LEWIS: All right. Again, Jim Beebe, a former Scientologist
talking about this stuff, and--Jim, Ive
gotta ask you--in fact, Ill tell you what.
Im gonna ask you a question after--first
well get our sports update and come back
to you. Because I think the question a lot of
people are probably asking you is: You sound like
a reasonably astute man. How, if this is all you
say it is, do reasonably astute people get involved
with something like the Church of Scientology
if it is in fact what you say it is?
BEEBE: Scientology has any number--they have a
number of, uh, front offices--
of broadcast cut off--conversation resumes with
discussion of Chick Corea]
BEEBE: And he was a very influential jazz musician,
BEEBE: And every interview with him in music publications
[?????] with Scientology and that was very influential
in me getting involved.
LEWIS: Now, Jim, I assume that the church would
say you got a lot for your money.
BEEBE: (laughs) Yeah, right! Ill tell you
what the, the, the--uh, what the legacy of involvement
with Scientology is financial ruin, broken families
and very often mental derangement; thats
what you get.
LEWIS: And obviously they would say, "There
are a lot of case studies of saved families, saved
BEEBE: Oh, thats bull, you know. Im
sorry, I mean, there are broken divorced families
all over this country--
LEWIS: You were with them for a long time; so
we get back to the question, "Why?".
If this is a big Nazi--what did you call it, a
BEEBE: Its a Nazi cult.
LEWIS: You were with it for 20 years.
BEEBE: No, I was with it about--I was off and
on with them for about 12 years.
BEEBE: Everything is L. Ron Hubbard. Every time
you look at a Scientologist, all he can think
of, 24 hours a day, is L. Ron Hubbard.
BEEBE: OK. This programming is very deep.
BEEBE: Now, after theyve been thoroughly
indoctrinated and programmed into Scientology
and if they have enough money, they get to the
secret OT courses. On OT III is revealed the Wall
of Fire. Uh, the Wall of Fire is about something
that supposed--that L. Ron Hubbard says happened
75 million years ago. There was a confederation
of about 95 planets out there. This confederation
was run by an evil galactic overlord whose name
was Xenu--thats spelled X-E-N-U.
LEWIS: OK, he ran the confederation.
BEEBE: He ran the confederation, very nasty, evil.
Now this name Xenu is very secret; Scientologists
cannot speak it and cannot write it.
BEEBE: OK? They are programmed by L. Ron Hubbard
to believe that if they are exposed to this material
prematurely, theyll get pneumonia and die,
OK? And they believe that. So Xenu--on all these
planets, they have a lot of overpopulation. So
what he did, he rounded up billions of people,
brought them here to this planet, dumped them
in volcanoes--now how many people you can get
in a volcano, I dont know--
LEWIS: He rounded up all the overpop--all the
BEEBE: Right, brought em to--
LEWIS: Brought em to Earth.
BEEBE: Brought em to Earth, dropped them
in volcanoes, blew them up with hydrogen bombs.
LEWIS: This is 95 million years ago?
BEEBE: 75 million years ago.
BEEBE: This is the Wall of Fire.
BEEBE: Very secret.
BEEBE: The souls, the spirits, they were released
from these people who were blown up by hydrogen
bombs. These spirits were trapped electronically
by Xenu, OK?
LEWIS: Trapped where, in the Earths atmosphere?
BEEBE: They were trapped in clusters, and every
human being today has clusters--now these, these
dead alien spirits are called body thetans, T-H-E-T-A-N--
BEEBE: In Scientology--
BEEBE: A very secret word. These body thetans,
these spirits, alien spirits, every human being
today has clusters of thousands of these alien
spirits called body thetans attached to them.
Theyre invisible. And their only hope to
be free of these is L. Ron Hubbards golden
BEEBE: Now you understand why Lisa McPherson went
LEWIS: Lisa McPherson, of course, who started
all this, her death on December 5, 1995 and the
consequent protests and the now indictments against
the church involved with her death.
BEEBE: Right. Now--
LEWIS: And this is why she went insane, because
of the aliens?
BEEBE: Well you can imagine; now youre on
the secret courses, you have to sit there in a
little room with your e-meter, and you have to
try and contact these body thetans, these invisible
alien spirits, telepathically, and you have to
run L. Ron Hubbards little secret processes
on em. OK?
LEWIS: And thats what they were doing to
her when she was being held--
BEEBE: Thats right, she was on the--
LEWIS: At the Fort Harrison Hotel?
BEEBE: Now, when people go insane on these courses,
as they often do, L. Ron Hubbards solution
is to put them in isolation. They lock em
up in a room.
LEWIS: Which they did.
BEEBE: And they, uh--and the person either recovers
or dies or they send them home.
LEWIS: All right.
BEEBE: Thats what happened to Lisa--
LEWIS: Lisa McPherson died.
LEWIS: Jim Beebe, the former Scientologist and
former, uh, volunteer with the Cult Awareness
Network, which is now owned by the Church of Scientology.
Jim, it was fascinating, to say the very least,
talking to you and you sharing your insight on
the church and your experience and I do appreciate
BEEBE: Well, you have a terrific show there, very
LEWIS: Well, you were the exclusive guest, of
course you would say that (laughs). Thanks, Jim.
BEEBE: Can I--
BEEBE: Can I give out my phone number?
BEEBE: I mean, if people would like more information--
LEWIS: Is this the same number where I had to
get clearance before I got through?
BEEBE: (laughs) Yeah, I dont know where
that came from, I didnt set that up; its
something from the phone company.
LEWIS: All right.
BEEBE: But if people would like more information,
I am not in hiding. Uh, you can call me and my
number is 847-205-1134.
LEWIS: All right. Jim Beebe, thanks, Jim, good
talking to you, sir.
BEEBE: OK, Todd.
courtesy of Batchild