- Tampa, FL
December 4, 1997
Lerma, Birgitta Dagnell and Martin Ottman
appear on this Public Radio show to discuss
Scientology and the Clearwater picket in
memory of Lisa
McPherson. Scientologist Sylvia
Stannard also appears.
Some listener comments from yesterdays show.
Now were gonna talk about Scientology. We
had originally planned to do two shows on this
subject, one today with the critics and one next
Tuesday with supporters of Scientology; but the
church contacted us about 90 minutes ago and insisted
that they be allowed to have a spokesperson on
todays show, so were happy to have
with us three ex-members of the Church of Scientology
right now, and in a moment we will be joined by
one of theone of the spokespersons for the
Church of Scientology. Weve got in the studio
with us right now Birgitta Dagnell, Arnie Lerma
and Martin Ottmann. All are ex-members of the
Church of Scientology and welcome to WMNF; thanks
for coming in.
ARNIE LERMA: Thanks so much for having us
Good to have you here. Birgitta, let me ask you
first of allyoure from Sweden and
you joined this Church of Scientology many years
ago. How many years ago?
DAGNELL: Oh, I joined the Church in 1970.
And how long were you in the church?
And you became eventually the head of the Churchs
Office of Special Affairs, right?
Yeah, but it hadnt really started to operate
as well at that time. It was about to form, so
I was in that office from Spring 1983 up to around
Now what did you do for the Church of Scientology?
What were, what were some the positions you had
and why did it, did you belong to it?
What I had to handle was external troubles, and
to form front groups with Narconon, CCHR, etc.,
take care of aggressive media and make friends
with media, and city officials and so on.
Now you say that you set up front groups like
Narconon and CCHR. CCHR is the Citizens Commission
for Human Rights, right?
Why did you set up, why do you call it front groups?
Because they are doing things which make Scientology
look more public friendly. It should, its
a facade for the Church to get the Church accepted
by the community.
Why did you leave the Church?
Well, it was several factors. I was put into their
camp; they had kind of a concentration camp in
Denmark in 1983 and I, together with all the other
Guardian Office members, were put into this camp.
We should be rehabilitated, meaning they should
crack us down and then build us up to what they
wanted us to be.
When you say concentration camps, what do you
mean, concentration camp? Thats a pretty,
I mean that word is so loaded.
Yeah, I have not seen anything similar so thats
why I call it concentration camp. Because they
didnt give us food and if they gave us food,
it was very little food. For instance, at one
moment they gave us 16 slices of bread for 82
people and one, one of us took 6 slices of bread
so the rest of us almosthow do I say-- [couldnt
hear word] him up because he took too much.
Why do you think they gave you so little food?
They were suppressive against us. They wanted
us to be very, very low. I remember, for instance,
once when I had been there for a long time, I
met a friend I had known for years. I met him
on the yard, and he said to me, "Hi, Birgitta,
what are you doing here?" and I couldnt
even remember his name. It took me a month to
remember who that person was.
Was that because you had so little food?
Yes, so little food, so little sleep, so very
bad mental conditions.
Let me switch the focus to Arnie Lerma. Arnie,
you were with the Church up until 1978. Tell me
about your experience in the Church of Scientology.
I used to be the, what would be considered the
Financial Controller for the Publications Division,
which is now called Bridge Publications, and,
um, I got out in 78, I believe, and it wasthere
was no way that I could continue to hold any hope
that Scientology in fact was what it claimed to
Well, why did you lose faith with the Church of
ItI had been involved with them for 10 years
and I think, you know, enough time had gone by
that I just gave up hoping that, perhaps, that
what they were telling me was true or that something
would be revealed on some upper level that would
make the madness that you see, you know, day-to-day
when youre in the organization make sense.
Whatwhat happened that youve described
Well, the last straw was being placed under house
arrest here in Clearwater at the Ft. Harrison
and being held in a hotel room, um, and then being
taken to another room and questioned by two staffers--I
suppose they were members of the Guardians
Office thenand, um, was givensee,
and I dont remember the exact wording but
I remember the conclusion I had and the decision
that I made. And, um, I was given an offer of
safe passage out of the state of Florida with
no bodily harm, um, if I would give up a plan.
Well, we had a marriage license with Suzette Hubbard
and we were trying to elope. Of course, during
her auditing it came up.
Well, now, you tried to elope with the daughter
of the founder of Scientology.
Right, and I think that, um, I was still a little
too independent thinking, and thats not
considered upstat in Scientology.
They objected to your relationship with her.
How long were you held in house arrest in Clearwater?
Oh, just a few days.
Let me turn to a spokesperson for the Church right
now. She is Sylvia Stanard. Sylvia, thanks for
joining us, its good to have you here.
STANARD: Thank you.
Is there such thing as house arrest at the Church
Absolutely not. And Arnie Lerma knows and of course
doesnt mention that he didnt leave,
he was actually thrown out of the Church for quite
a lot of other indiscretions and financial--
Thats a fabrication.
All right, well let me justum, did your
Church hold Arnie Lerma in house arrest in Clearwater
for a few days in 1978?
Does your church maintain concentration-like camp
situations in Europe as Birgitta mentioned a moment
Absolutely not, absolutely not
Yes they do.
Birgitta, you were, you were in Berlin at a conference
put together by the German government.
Yes I was.
Yes; thats, thats my question for
Birgitta is, this, whats happening here
is theres a lot of people who are being
paid to come into Clearwater
No Im not being paid
Who are being, who are being financed
Who paid for your flight?
Im paying all my expenses myself
OK, youre one of the few. There are quite
a few others including a critic of the church
who recently had a house bought for him. Theres
quite a few people that are being paid to come
in and attack the Church, and thats what
this is all about. Whats happening is that
these people who are coming into Clearwater to
talk about the Church are almost all involved
in litigation against the Church trying to win
money from the Church, or these kind of things
where they have a very big financial vested interest
in attacking the Church. And thats what
people in Clearwater need to know. And then the
people in Clearwater who are residents herethere
are thousands of Scientologists who live in Clearwater
and thousands who come every week, and who are
very involved in the community, who are doing
community activities, who are doing things. People
need to come and look for themselves. Come to
the Ft. Harrison. Look, you know--take a look
yourself. Have you ever seen anybody being held?
No. Anybody can come at any time and have a full
Open House, go for a tour throughout the Church,
go for a tour throughout Ft. Harrison. Thats
what the Church is all about, and thats
what people need to really look for themselves,
not listen to people who are trying to win money
Arnie Lerma has a case against the Church
[couldnt hear (people were all talking at
the same time)]
That case was brought by you, not me
And you tried to make money on it and youre
Scientologys lies continue from the first
moment you get in till long after you are out.
(snickers) You are involved in litigation against
You are the onewho sued me? Its RTC
Or are you illiterate?
OK, let me back up. It would seem that theres
a giant gulf here and I still want to know about
people being held against their will. Is there
an independent way that we can verify that other
people have been held against their will by the
Church of Scientology? Can weBirgitta, were
people who were held in this alleged concentration-like
situationuh, have others come forward to,
to second what you have said to us?
Well, my daughters.
Your daughters can testify that this indeed happened
Were they there?
No, they were not there. Um
There are quite a few statements we have from
people who *were* there who say it didnt
There is people outside, actually, a lot more
people who were there who *can* testify about
it. Of course.
Let me bring our other guest in on this too. His
name is Martin Ottmann. Martin, you for a time
worked at the spiritual headquarters at the Church;
you eventually left. Why did you leave the Church
OTTMANN: Um, I had to leave the so-called headquarters
in 1992 because my visa had run out, and I tried
to get back to the United States but, uh, while
this was in progress, I had to stay a certain
amount of time in Germany, and at that time I
worked in a printing company in Frankfurt owned
by Scientologists, and finally I left Scientology
because of my experience at the printing company,
because the Scientologists whothere were
several Scientologists who had run this printing
companyfalsified tax balances and they put
money out of the company into Scientology, and
finally I reported them to the German CID. The
company went bankrupt and one of the formerone
of the former owners, one of the Scientologists,
went to jail in 1994 for it.
As a result of, as a result of your coming forward.
I dont know. Um, he went to jail and its
for the tax reasons for several things he did.
That was a private company, youre saying,
it wasnt a Church company.
It was a private company and the former Scientologists
were all patrons of the IAS, um, high-ranking
public members who paid each $250,000 to the IAS
from the company who went bankrupt in 1993.
So its a private company that went bankrupt
that you worked for.
Exactly. And just like any other church, there
are quite a few private companies--that are owned
by Baptists, that are owned by Catholics, that
are owned by Muslims--that go bankrupt and that
might haveI dont know about this particular
case, but thats, thats the point is
whats happening here is that if you take
individual cases, particularly as this is happening
in Germany, where individual Scientologists who
are members of the church, who might have a company.
Their companysome companies do very well,
just like any other business; some companies dont
do as well. And when a company doesnt do
well, suddenly its the Church of Scientology.
Well thats notthats not true
and its not fair. If you have a Catholic
company that isnot a Catholic company, a
company that is owned by someone who is Catholicthat
goes bankrupt, do you say the Churchyou
know, the Catholic Church did this? Absolutely
not. No one would ever think of it. And thats,
thats an abuse that were concerned
about is this generalization.
These people were so-called reggedthis is
a Scientology termthey were persuaded to
give the money to the Church of Scientology by
Church staff. I can tell the namethe name
is Achim Bendig, who was the IAS registrar; and
I have published on the Internet an internal Knowledge
Report made by the owner where he can, where he
can, he describes the registration cyclethis
is another Scientology term--which led to the
funding of the Scientology organization; and it
was clearly that the Scientology organizations
were set up on these persons to get a lot of money
out of it, from it, and, and this registrar, Achim
Bendig, knew about the financial status and the
financial situation of the company.
So youre saying that the Church was set
up deliberately as a way to, among other thingsI
mean the company was set up as a way to pass money
to the Church?
They, uh, the Scientology officials, they viewed
this organization and other companies as a money
pool, and this is not a single incident in Germany.
There are others. For example
This is, this is whats happening in Germany
and this is why there are four years in a row
the U.S. State Department has condemned whats
going on in Germany, the United Nations has issued
reports about whats going in Germany, because
this is exactly the kind of thing that were
facing in Germany
They didnt do it the last report--
Where, where peopleyes they did, quite--a
page and a half, a full page and a half. The longest
report on Scientology in the U.S. State Department
report in the last four years was this year. The
reason that this is going on is because in Germany,
because of the kinds of things that this man is
saying, that just because a person is a member
of the Church, there are these wild accusations
thatyouve just heard the accusations,
but there are these wild accusations just because
they are a member of the Church. Now there are
thousands and thousands of members of the Church
that are good upstanding citizens that pay a lot
of taxes, that are very involved in the community,
that do well in business. There are a lot of major
corporations that I have family and friends that
are involved in that are high executives and,
that are name-brand corporations. Just because
a person is a member of the Church of Scientology
or just because a person is a member of the Catholic
Church or the Baptist Church doesnt mean
that their personal business and their personal
tax returns is something that should even be the
subject of a radio show.
All right, well, lets, lets talk some
more about it because I think obviously people
in this community are very interested in the subject
of Scientology. Uh, there is going to be a demonstration
this weekend at 9:30, 9:30 on December 6 and 6:309:30
a.m. December 6 and 6:30 p.m.-- in Clearwater
opposite the headquarters of the Church of Scientology
to protest among other things what the critics
say is the cruelty to its own members; and you
folks are using the death of Lisa McPherson two
years ago as a way to try to encourage people
to protest the church. I wonder if, if one of
you could take this question of Lisa McPhersons
death two years ago and tell us what you think
it shows to us about Scientology. Arnie?
Im, Im not completely familiar with
the case but I can point out what Ive noticed.
Um, the logsthere were logs that were kept,
um, detailing ScientolLisas confinement
in the Ft. Harrison. The logs start before the
incident where she was running down the street--when
she was in that car accident and then was going
down the street taking off her clothes, which
indicate to me that that was her first attempt
to escape. Um, Lisa McPherson worked for an outfit
and was getting paid a large sum of money, um,
selling some kind of insurance forms or something
like that. And, its, and it was a Scientoloor,
it was a WISE corporation where they pay 10% of
their income or profit to Scientology.
What, when you say "WISE", what does
WISE stand for
World Institute of Scientology International or
somewhat is WISE?
World Institute of Scientology Enterprises.
Which, which are corporations that use Mr. Hubbards
technologies and--management technologies to help
their business do better
May I ask you one question while, while youre
on a roll here?
Im not on a roll, you are. (snickers)
Um, can you tell me if this quote that Im
about to read is correct? All right?
If youll let me then use a quote from you
As being true? "The court record is replete
with evidence that Scientology is nothing in reality
but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount
of money from its adepts by pseudo-scientific
theories and to exercise a kind of blackmail against
persons who do not wish to continue with their
What court record is that?
"The organization clearly is schizophrenic
and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems
to be a reflection of its founder, L. Ron Hubbard."
What, what court record--
Judge Breckinridge, Los Angeles Superior Court.
I dont know, Im not familiar enough
with the exact position
Dont you work in the Legal Department?
No, I dont. But Ill tell you what
Im concerned about and I think people dont
know about somebody like Arnie Lerma and I think
its important people in this community do
know where youre coming from. Uh, the, this
picket was advertised in the Spotlight newspaper.
The Spotlight newspaper, according to a new book
out called "In Hitlers Shadow",
is one of the biggest neo-Nazi publications in
the United States.
Oh, [couldnt hear words]--
Liberty Lobby, according to the Anti-Defamation
League in a new booklet just published, "Hate
on the Internet", is the number one anti-Semite
group in the United States. Arnie Lerma is on
the board of policy of Liberty Lobby.
Thats not true.
You--Ive got your postings saying you are.
Whats the date of it?
I dont have it with me--
But its a year ago.
So youve resigned now from the Liberty Lobby.
Theres no resign, thats a--you pay
$15 extra and they let you vote.
And you spoke at their national convention a year
and a half ago.
And you know what I spoke about?
I spoke about the Liberty Tree and the fact that
the Internet is the Liberty Tree of the 90s--
And, and its a neo-Nazi publication, its
the number one anti-Semite hate publication--
In the United States, according to the ADL, and
youre going to the national convention
All right, now we dont need to argue about
this, but perhaps the most neo-Nazi anti-Semite
part of it might be described as a part called
Institute for Historical Review. Correct?
In your opinion? Good.
IHR was taken over by Tom Marcellus, Scientologist--
Field Staff Member--
Not, not true.
Yes it was
OK, we should saylet me just back up.
For the audience that doesnt know, the Institute
for Historical Review denies that the Holocaust
ever happened. It is a, it is--by some, by some
estimates it is a neo-Nazi group. I think they
would argue with me. Now youre saying, Arnie
Scientologists took it over.
They went and used the names against Germany in
their fight against Germany.
All right, and, and, Sylvia of the Church of Scientology,
youre saying its not true that one
of your top staff members has now taken over IHR?
Is Tom Marcellus a Scientologist--
Is Tom Marcellus a Scientologist?
Tom Marcellus, at least several years ago, was
a Scientologist. I dont know
Is he [couldnt hear word]
He is not a staff member, he has never been a
Hes a Field Staff Member--
And the point with the IHR that is of interest
is that there is a rift between Willis Carto that,
uh, Arnie Lerma and Larry Wollersheim and quite
a few other people who are involved in this picket
are good friends with. He is the head, he is,
according to this book, internationally known
in neo-Nazi movement.
Now thats, thats what were talking
I went to Willis Carto to find out about you folks,
because when I heard, when I found out about the
takeover, that Scientologists had taken over IHR
And we compared notes about Scientology--
Scientologists did not take over IHR--
I gave him a book sort of like the book I just
Can I say something--
Tom, Tom, let me get you in on this--
Well that, well that raises up the question of
whats happening with this picket and why
were so, the Church is so concerned about
Tom, were gonna get to that in just a second--
Scientology is [couldnt hear word] organization--
But lets--Martin Ottmann--
I have some background information about Thomas
Marcellus. He was the Executive Director of IHR
from 1981 until 1995. In 1991 he attended a course
in the Scientology headquarters, the Dynamic Sort-Out
Assessment. In 1992 he became sponsor of the IAS.
He paid $5,000 to the IAS
The IAS is the Inst--
International Association of Scientologists. Its
the official membership of Scientologists. So
while he was the Executive Director of the IHR,
he became a Scientologist per the documents. Its
from the "Impact" magazine, from an
official Scientology magazine and later--
And then resigned from IHR--
Let me ask--
Thomas Marcellus was kicked out of IHR because
the other Nazis in, within this organization accused
him of, uh, undermining the organization with
Then he became a patron of the IAS. He paid another
40, he paid another $35,000--
The president of International, of IAS, is Heber
Jentzsch, and its my understanding that
hes out on $1 million bail on charges--
Hes the president of IAS? Thats news
He used to be. Is he not? Youve changed
Hes the president of the IAS?
Hes never been, hes never been
Whos the president of IAS?
All right, you know, guys, let me just slow this
down a little bit here because I hope the audience
is keeping up with us. Were talking about
the Church of Scientology today, and our guests
are three critics, three former members of the
Church. They are Birgitta Dagnell, Arnie Lerma
and Martin Ottmann. Also here is one of the officials
in the Church, the External Affairs Director,
Sylvia Stanard. Sylvia, did, did L. Ron Hubbard
ever subscribe to conspiracy theories? Did he
ever think that the big bankers were out to get
him and to undermine the Church?
I personally dont know exactly every theory
he ever subscribed to. I have never read anything
from Mr. Hubbard saying anything like that.
I dont know--
It is a theory that neo-Nazis and conspiratorialists
hold, that, that the big bankers and all that,
all that are out to get them, right? Did, did
L. Ron Hubbard ever hold, hold that theory?
Ive, Ive never read anything saying
Let me just play, let me just play a tape of L.
Ron Hubbard here for just a moment and get everybody
to respond to it. Here is, in his own words, L.
OF L. RON HUBBARD: --on this planet are less than
12 men; less than 12 men. They are members of
the Bank of England and other higher financial
circles. They own and control newspaper chains
and they are, oddly enough, directors in all the
mental health groups in the world which have sprung
up. These chaps are very interesting fellows.
They have fantastically corrupt backgroundsuh,
illegitimate children, uh, government graftum,a
very unsavory lot; and they apparently, some time
in the rather distant past, had determined upon
a course of action. Being in control of most of
the gold supplies of the planet, they entered
upon a program of bringing every government to
bankruptcy and under their thumb so that no government
would be able to act politically without their
All right, well, theres, theres a--according
to L. Ron, theres a conspiracy of international
bankers. Uh, he goes on to say that this conspiracy
is aimed towards the Church of Scientology. He
was a believer in conspiracy theories, wasnt
I, I dont know, Ive never personally
met the man to know that. What I know is what
I as a Scientologist have read and studied about
the religious beliefs of Scientology; and that--*that*--the
issue here really is my First Amendment right
to believe what I want to believe about my religion
without my religion being attacked by people coming
from out of stateout of the countryto
come to protest here at the international headquarters
of my church, and to not
Do you believe that these protesters are violent?
Absolutely. I have postings saying, "Blow
up your local Church of Scientology today",
"So-called Church ought to be destroyed".
I have a whole, whole raft of postings from many
of the people who are supposed to be here tomorrow.
Um, the oncology bomb--the ontology bomb detonated
in Oklahoma was meant for Scientology". "If
only someone would bomb their new tourist trap"these
are the kinds of things that--
Let, let me get
That are being said on the Internet
Let me getall right, let me get the critics
to respond. Uh, earlier this week, the Church
of Scientology tried to prevent you folks from
holding a protest, saying that you were gonna
be violent. Uh, lets take that first and
then let me ask her aboutlet me ask you
about her religious freedom. Are you guys gonna
be violent at this protest?
Absolutely not. Were worried about them.
Why are you worried about them
They were pushing us and shoving us around at
the last picket.
You had a protest a year ago and they were pushing
Not true. I was there
Now wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on, let
me just ask him: How did they push you around?
Um, they would block yourthey would block
your ability to walk. They would surround us with
other pickets. Um, they would place themselves
in a position where you could not walk any further.
It was sort of like what they did to Keith Henson
in bringing some fellow that, you know, they,
they deceived a judge the same way they deceived
Judge Brinkema to get the, um, writ of seizure
on my home, which was later vacatedall of
your raids have been vacated after they get all
the detailsbut theyre, theyre
adept at deceiving judges and baffling them.
All right, uh, so, so, let me, let me turn it
back to Sylvia. Sylvia, your people pushed, uh,
this group of anti-Scientology protesters around
last year at the protest.
No, we didnt and he didnt say we did.
He said that they were blocked from walking further;
thats not the same as pushing. I didnt,
I didnt see that personally.
We were bumped and jostled below camera level--
We tried to talk-we tried to talk with them. There
were quite a few people, including myself who
was out there with Arnie, saying "Come on,
Arnie, lets talk." Thats been
our position all along
Id like to talk about the last time I talked
"Lets talk about the Church of Scientology.
Lets talk about your complaints. Lets
negotiate; lets see what your real upsets
are." But it comes down again and again and
again to being a financial issue where they are
vested interest in trying to make millions of
dollars from the Church. And that is--
The Lisa McPherson story that youre talking
about isnt a story. It happened two years
You are the one who are-
Suddenly, when the aunt tries to suehold
on a minutefor $80 million, now its
suddenly a story. Now thats whats
happened time and again. Larry Wollersheim is
getting paid. Arnie Lerma is getting paid
What do you meanwhat are you talking about,
Im getting paid?
Youre getting money under theunder
the counter. Its been on the Internet. Youre,
youve been financed. Larry Wollersheim
Ive been soliciting postage stamps
Larry Wollersheimyouve been handing
out flyers saying "Donations received--willingly
Absolutely, youre, youre
Youre getting financed
Who do you think is financing
LauraI meanIm sorry, Sylvia,
who do you think is financing them?
Well, a guy named Bob Minton has been admitted
in court cases, has, for instance, uh, been involved
in giving money to, to, um
OK, Bob Minton. Let me toss it back to Arnie Lerma
and, uh, the critics. Are you guys being financed
and what do you think of this accusation?
At one point during my litigation, after two years
of the most intense litigation that the attorneys
that were representing me had ever experienced,
I offered to sell my computer to Bob Minton, the
one that I used to log on to the Internet with,
because I was out of money.
The insurance company paid for all your legal
fees and you know it.
Yes, but who was feeding me while I was doing
all of that?
You were. You were out busy. You were telling
me that you
You work only one or two days a week because you
like to lay around the house the rest of the time--
But I mean, this is all, this is all the time
that you were keeping us tied up with litigations
You told me that
And the litigation stress
But you did give the false impression
Once you inflict the same way you use the RPF,
you can destroy peoples minds
You just gave the false impression that--
So that they dont remember what happened
to them while theyre in.
The point is, you just gave the false impression
that you paid for this litigation
The insurance company paid for this litigation
No, no, no, no, the insurance company paid the
This is all, this is all kind of inside baseball
Let me get outlet me get to some of the
The last time I talked to this lady she swore
a false affidavit in my case
I am not paid by anyone
So I dont want to talk to her.
Ive never filed an affidavit in your case
So why are you saying that I am paid?
All right, um
I didnt say you were
Yes, you said the critics.
I said he is.
All right. I dont think
And I dont believe you probably went to
Germany on your own.
Yes I did.
OK, Id like to see evidence of that.
Yes you can because I [couldnt hear word]
on a business trip--
OK, guys, this
[couldnt hear word] from Germany?
OK, Ill kick you all out of this room if
you dont listen to me. Seriously, um, you
guys, you critics, say that the Church of Scientology,
um, ultimately aims to take over the world and
that it is a fascist organization, secret at the
top with the membership of Scientology not completely
aware what the aims and the goals of the people
at the top are. Explain that to me.
Uh, Hubbard had a plan once to take over South
Africa many years ago. Um, I dont know all
the details of it but I remember reading it in
various policy letters. They wanted a safe harbor
for many years. They wanted a place where they
would be the ones making the law.
Whats the proof of that?
Thats written in policy letters, I mean,
thats, thats written.
Did, did L. Ron Hubbard want to take over the,
the nation of South Africa?
Ive never seen that. Ive been in the
Church 22 years and its amazing the things
that pops out of people like Arnie Lermas
mouth of "L. Ron Hubbard says this, L. Ron
Hubbard says that." Ive never seenthe
large majority of these quotes Ive never
seen or heard, and Ive studied, and Ive
And any time we try to post documents to substantiate
these we get sued under copyright trying to substantiate
Not any time. When you posted 136 full pages
61 pages. Of a 130 page affidavit.
That was, as the Court found, in violation of
What did they charge me with?
What was my fine?
Your fine was $2,500, we won the case
How much did you spend to get that $2,500?
It wasthats irrelevant.
All right. Uh, Martin, do you have anything to
add to this discussion about the ultimate aims
of the Church?
Well, there exists an audiotape, um, called "Rhodesia"
in which L. Ron Hubbard describes his attempts
to take over, uh, the country of Rhodesia. Then
there exists "RJ 67" which, uh,
was played during my two year stay at the headquarters
for several times to the whole staff; and, uh,
I also have, uh, have a letter from--
And youre saying--
A founding Sea Org member, Frank McCall, in which
he states that, uh, Scientology wants to take
over the world by the year 2000, and this isand
I have also a letter written by the Executive
Director International, Guillaume Lesevre, where,
in which he states that he wants to clear the
world by the year 2000. The term "clearing
the world" means the takeover of the world
Do you have a crashing misunderstood word there!
"Clear" in Scientology merely means
that a person is free of their own upsets and
troubles, and that theyre able to think
on their own, and theyre not controlled
by bad incidents that happened to them in the
past. It has nothing to do with political
Well, Hubbard said
It has nothing. You can look inthere are
several Scientology dictionaries which have a
definition for the word "clear", and
it has nothing anywhere about any kind of political
taking over the world; it has nothing in there
Well, well does that
I can, I cancan I say something
I mean, if you can just say all these things,
say itbring a copy of it. Where does it
say it? I canI didnt bring it with
you, me because I didnt know you were gonna
bring this up. The definition of "clear"
is very obvious. Anyone can buy "Dianetics:
The Modern Science of Mental Health" in their
local bookstore and it talks about the state of
Clear. Its in B. Daltons, its
in all these bookstores.
They have, they have--you know, for public affairs,
they have one definition, and for internal affairs,
they have another definition. So, so thats--
Well Ive never in 21 years seen that other
Yeah, well, obviously you have
And I have been, I have been in the Church all
Obviously you hadnt studied a lot, you hadnt
studied enough books to, to keep up with this,
with this discussion, because youdo you
know of this--
300-page book, "Dianetics: The Modern Science
of Mental Health--
Hold onSylvia, Sylvia, let him talk
For the infiltration during the 1980sto,
just to give a little grant for this word clearingduring
the 1980s, two agents of the, uh, German Intelligence
Service for External Affairs were run by a Scientologist
who was before in the Guardians Office and
he was their Case Officer. So they infiltrated
the German Intelligence Service for External Affairs
called BND during the 1980s. This is what I understand
about clearing. This is what they understand in
clearing. This is how clearing gets in action
by the Scientologists. This is clearing the planet.
That, that isnt clearing the planet. I dont
know anything about that case
Then, then you have probably a misunderstood word
And Ive been in Germany and Ive been
working with the State Department and the United
Nations about whats happening in Germany
for a number of years. And I have never even seen
that allegation before and believe me Ive
seen just about every allegation you can make
up under the sun, moon and stars.
Uh, the guy who runs this agent is calledhis
name is Alfred Kohl--
How about bringing documents? How about bringing
Let me, let me ask Sylvia Stanard, the External
Affairs Director of the Church of Scientology,
what does the Church uh, in its religion,
what do you worship?
We believe that man is a spiritual being and that
is the crux of our religious belief, that manthat
you yourself are not your body, that you are a
spiritual being, that you have immortal life,
that you can get better, that there can be, uh,
ultimate freedom for people. There, you can be
free, you can have total freedom. And thats
what Scientology is about. It, itsI
cant tell you in
Do you worship, do you worship a god?
Well, I cant tell you in two minutes what
Scientology is when its 25 million words,
but anyone can pick up a book at a local bookstore
and read about it
How much, how muchif I were, if I were to
join the Church today, how much would it cost
me to reach the top stage of the Church?
It totally depends on you; manymany people--
What would be the minimumwhat would be the
minimum cost for me reaching Clear?
What would be the minimum cost for me to be an
I could, I could reach that position for free?
OK, let me, let me hear frombecause you
guys were making the charge earlier that it is
a money-makingthat moneysits
reasons for being are money making. Can I reach
that position for free
I worked for two years in the Sales Department
and I never saw any person who reached the state
of Clear for free. The average
Moneythe average money they have to, uh,
put into the Church accounts was at least $40,000,
but some people paid $100,000 or $150,000 just
to attain the state of Clear. The average money
they have to put, uh, to the Church for attaining
the highest level, OT8, is $270,000 or $300,000.
But, uh, when sheshes also, uh, disguising
When you want towhen you want to attain
the state of Clear for free, you have to be a
People can also pick up the book "Dianetics"
and co-audit themselves for free and reach the
state of Clear. Its in the book "Dianetics"
You can read it at the bookstore--
When you reach the Dianetics "clear",
the Dianetics "clear" is a sublevel
even beyond the, the lowest course on the so-called
Grade Chart. The state of "Clear", what
we are talking about, is something different.
Its in the middle of the Grade Chart
You have a
A really misunderstood word.
You do, too.
She, you knownow you know how shes
disguising. The Dianetics Clear is, is a state
which Hubbard described in 1950, but this is not
longer the official, uh, term Clear. The--it represents
something different. Theres, there are various
courses and auditing steps which you have to attain
before evenbefore you even get to the, uh,
Clear Certainty Rundown, and I have never seen
a public Scientologist who hadnt at least
paid $40,000 or $50,000 to attain that state.
I had to pay a lot even but I was on staff.
You had to pay a lot?
Yes, to become Clear and to become OT3. And I
met a Swedish OSA man three years ago. He has
been on staff since 1976 and he has not been clear
Um, Sylvia, could you be mistaken or, or could
you be dissembling here in that, uh, the vast
majority of people who get to Clear or Operating
Thetan have to pay money? Or are you--
That wasnt the question you asked me
Well let me ask you this
You asked me what the minimum amount was.
An acceptable truth, no doubt.
No, I answered the question, not another question
What percentage of the members of the Church of
Scientology pay nothing to become Clear or to
become an Operating Thetan?
Well, weve actually done studies on this,
and it was for a comparative that was in the tax
case; and 32% of the people in Scientology get
their services for free.
That doesnt mean that necessarily they went
Clear. Some of thesome people might go Clear,
some people might be Operating Thetans. But quite
a lot of people do receive services for free just
like any other church. Yes, people do donate and
contribute toward the church. They have to, otherwise
we wouldnt have all the things we have
Are these voluntary donations
Or are these required to, to reach certain stages?
Well, theyre voluntary donations; a person
doesnt need to donate. But in order to do
certain courses there, there are set donation
schedules for certain courses.
If I chooseif I choose not to donate the
set schedule, can I still get the course?
It depends; there are many other ways, there are
always other ways that people can do it.
Yesyou can be on staff; you can becontribute
as a staff member. You can be a Field Staff Member
and work in selling books or disseminating information
about the Church or you can get awardedyou
can get awarded, uh, courses for that. So theres
quite a lot of different ways that people can
do things in Scientology. What theyre talking
about is somebody whos a professional, full
time type person who might come over from another
country, for instance, who might have a lot of
money; and theyre including things like
staying at the Ft. Harrison for a year. Yes, you
stay at a hotel for a year, youre gonna
spend some money. You stay at the Hilton for a
year, youre gonna spend some money. I mean,
yes, it does happen, but thats what were
talking about. But the real issue that, that we
need to talk about I think is the First Amendment
rights here where our freedom of religion and
our freedom to believe what we want to believe
and to practice our religion is being threatened
by people on the Internet like Arnie Lerma, like
Keith Henson for sure, whos talked about
Keith Henson isnt here so hes not
here to defend himself, but are you guys trying
to threaten their First Amendment rights? Do you
want themdo you want their ability to, uh,
believe what they want to believe limited?
Uh, I have no problem with you believing that
the moon is made of green cheese. But at the point
that you start lying to the public about your
true nature, then I think the public should be
very interested in what you believe.
Do you think that its OK for people to say,
"If only someone should bomb their new tourist
trap or museumyeah, that would make me laugh"?
Do you think that thats OK? Do you think
that people writing to our attorneys saying thatI
cant even read some of this stuff on the
Well, how about this
Its so vulgar, but "Im goingIm
going to kill you tonight"?
"Ill stick a knife into"Ill
leave it blank?
Sylvia, where does thiswho, who has made
those statements? Any of our guests, have they
made these statements?
Uh, Keith Henson, who is here in Clearwater
OK, right, but Keith, Keith is not here, Keith--
Keith isnt here to defend himself
Keith is not here to defend himself
No, but hes here in Clearwater--
So Ihas, has
No, but they like ex parte
Right, has, has
I have the copies of the e-mail
All right, but, but I think we should
You can read it yourself
Stick to Arnie or Martin or Birgitta. Have they
made any of those statements?
None that I have read.
All right, OK. Uh, uh, the otherMartin,
did you want to say something before we go on
to another subject?
Uh, well, I would like to return to the costs
of the, of the services. There exists just one
course which is for free and this is the Field
Staff Member Hat where you learn to recruit other
Scientologists. All other services cost something.
I was in an organization who made $1.5 million
a week and I was sitting in these executive meetings
where we were screamed at by the Commanding Officer
of the Flag Service Organization in Clearwater.
Why? Because we just made $1.2 million a week.
All that counted was money making, money making,
You wanted, you wanted to bring your totals up,
is what youre saying.
Yeah. We were urged to go down and urge the publics
to spend as much as, as much money as possible.
This is what its all about in, in, in the
Flag Service Organization. Its a money machine.
We had to make--our quota was $3 million a week.
Just from the Clearwater area?
Just from the Clearwater area.
Not true and you know it
No, its true
Well, Sylvia, if, if making $3 million wasnt
the quota for Clearwater, what is the quota, if
InI dont know what the quota is, but
What do you know, anyway?
What he knows is that Clearwater ishes
not talking about from Clearwater, hes talking
about internationally from all over the world
No, that is not true
To come to the Ft. Harrison. And youre from
what country? Are you from Clearwater?
What are you talking about? No, Im from
Germany, you know that
Exactly. And where do you think people who are
coming to Clearwater are coming from? Theyre
coming from all over the world, theyre not
coming from Clearwater
What has this to do with the, with the figure
Because you said
$1.5 million a week? What has this to do with
Well, you changed the figure now, but
All right. Ill tell you whatlets
go to, lets go to the phonesour phone
number is 239-9663. The way we let the people
on the air are, we just have them call in with
their questions or comments. You get through as
you call in. The number to call, 239-9663. Lets
see what some listeners have to say. Umhi,
welcome to WMNF. Thanks for calling in.
Hi, Rob. Um, just one question, I guess, for,
um, for our Scientologist representative. Um,
is it always your religions way to be confrontational
and incite negativism as opposed to promoting
the positives of your beliefs to everybody?
Absolutely not, but realize Im sitting here
with three against one and a little bit of a set-up
here, so Im a little irritated when theyre
about to picket in front of my Church. Now if
I was here, I would--what I would like to talk
about is whats been done in Clearwater to
improve the city of Clearwater, the lighting that
has been done for Christmas, the Winter Wonderland
thats being set up. Those are the things
that I would like to be here talking about and
thats the things that I would like to see
the St. Petersburg Times and the local papers
talking about, but they dont talk about
that. So, you know, give me a little credit that
Im a little bit, uhthree against one
All right, well
In sports its not usually fair (laughs)
I should say, too, that what we, what we offered,
and the Church turned it downwe offered
the Church a whole hour by itself, and the Church
At a later date
Right. The Church decided that, uh, next Tuesday,
an hour, would not be acceptable and so thats
why we got this show today with everybody here.
Uh, caller, thanks a lot for your call. Did you
have another question?
Um, just, just a statement more than anything
else is that a point was brought up that, um,
when impeding the process of, uh, an organized
and, uh, allowable picket, that, uh, you know,
an opportunity was there to negotiate, and to
express, um, opposing views. Well, shedo
that on your own time, not somebody elses
organized time. I mean, if its that important
to, to negotiate, you set up the negotiating time,
but dont go over when somebody else has
already made arrangements for something else
Thats, thats just gonna be confrontational
OK. Thanks a lot for your call.
239-9663--go ahead, Sylvia.
Well, I just would like to respond to that in
terms of, yes, its confrontational when
they come to our Church and picket in front of
our Church. It is--it is confrontational, thats
what--theyre the ones coming to us. Im
not going to Arnies house and picketing
in front of that. Now, if I started doing that,
hed probably, hed probably be really
But youve gone to Vaughn Youngs house
and picketed in front of his home, havent
And how many--you know, but that--
Who is, who is Vaughn Young?
Vaughn Young is an expert witness, the ex--I think
he was the ex-OSA PR and his wife used to be the
editor of Freedom magazine.
So two former Church officials, and they picketed
right at their house.
Isnt that true?
I dont know, Ive never heard of that--
Is that--Sylvia, is that true?
Ive never heard of it.
Also, Jeff Jacobsen--
But Ill tell you about Vaughn Young--
Jeff Jacobsen was also picketed by OSA officials
and by Scientologists in front of his house and
in front of--
At his workplace--
At--oh, so you admit that--
At his disco--
Oh, so you admit that.
Absolutely, of course. And, and
And they picketed Vaughn Youngs home--
You think its OK to come picket our church
Well, wait a minute, wait a minute--Sylvia, I,
I dont understand; why, why would it be
not OK to picket in front of a church, but it
is OK to picket in front of somebodys workplace?
Why--why would that be OK?
I didnt say it wasnt OK to picket
in front of a church. Im saying that--
You just did--
It was in front of my church, confrontational--
You just objected, you just objected to them picketing
in front of a church--
Im saying confrontational--
It is confrontational--
And so would it be confrontational to picket at,
at another critics place of work?
So youre a confrontational group?
It is--no, no, its a, its a controversy
here in that people who are not involved in Scientology
like Jeff Jacobsen comes to our church, flies
all the way to Clearwater to picket against us
and then is involved in litigation and trying
to make money from the Church. Thats the
Jeff isnt involved in litigation with you--thats
OK, lets, lets take another phone
call. Our phone number is 239-9663. Hi, youre
on the air; go ahead.
Yeah, two observations and then--brief observations
and a question. Uh, first of all, I think the,
uh, Scientologists are obviously a church, a mainstream
international church, and that, uh, you know--theyre,
theyre rich. Theyve got all the money.
And that, uh, I think that the, uh--you know,
the mainstream, the Catholic Church and the, you
know, all, all the mainstream churches are corrupt
to a degree and Scientology I think is corrupt
to a degree as well. And I think that all churches
should be taxed after they have, like, a billion
dollars in assets. They should all be taxed, all
over the world. Secondly, uh, I think that, uh,
someone who has, uh, been cleared of, uh, of the
reactive mind is, uh, obviously able to pass a
lie detector test and that they dont react
to, uh, to the questions in, in the normal fashion
and its impossible to tell if a Clear is
lying or not. And thirdly, a question for Sylvia
who obviously is, uh, I believe intentionally
uninformed being their External Affairs communicator,
I dont think that she has the knowledge
of, uh, of all the internal goings on there. Its
obvious she doesnt even know what the quotas
are or how much money is made there. But the question
for you, Sylvia--what is the, uh, the ethical
dogma of the Church for good and evil? Aside from
clearing the planet of the reactive mind, which,
you know, I think is debatable, what is--what
is the dogma of the church for, for distinguishing
between good and evil and, uh, and, and right
and wrong? What, in, in essence, briefly, can
you tell me how, how do you all preach, um, that
people should be good and not be evil?
All right, thanks for your question.
Thats, thats a good question. Theres
a whole booklet called "The Way to Happiness"
which delineates moral precepts that we believe
that people should follow. That includes things
like, "Dont cheat", "Dont
steal", "Dont murder", the
usual Ten Commandments type of ideas as well as
Is lying one of your commandments? Do you believe
that--do you believe that lying is wrong?
And, and would there be any occasion that your
Church would allow lying?
No. That doesnt mean that no Scientologist
Just like no Christian-- (laughs)
Right, but official, were talking about
But were talking about dogma--
Were talking about official church dogma.
Let me pass it on to the critics; is there an
occasion, uh, that you have heard as ex-members
of the Church of Scientology that they would allow
Well, there was the Lying TRs.
The, the lying what?
The Lying TRs. We had to learn to lie to reporters;
it was among the Reporter TRs.
This was one of the skills that you were, that
you were supposed to have as a member of the Church?
Well, what does the--
Do you have a copy of this? Ive never seen
I had made a copy of it--
So why dont you have the 61 pages that I
posted to the Net that you were supposed to have--
And then we had the fact that L. Ron Hubbard himself
lied about--lied about all his life.
What do you mean he lied?
He lied about, uh, being an atomic physicist and
all that things, and what he was doing during
He lied about his military background.
But, but what--
What are you saying?
What, let me just--Sylvia, before we go back to
you, let me go back to Arnie. Arnie, are you saying
that at one time, documents proving that the Church
sanctioned lying were available on the Internet?
In this certain document that I was sued about,
I got sued for 61 copyright pages that were the
Super Duper Secret Levels, the carrot on the end
of the stick that they tease the members with.
Um, but in that was a section of the levels called
the levels zero past, and another section about
TR-LY, and that training routine was in that section
posted, I believe.
Ive never seen it.
So part of--
And Ive looked for your court documents--
The same way youve never heard of Rons
Ive never seen it--Ive heard Rons
Thats, that what this excerpt is from.
All right. So youre saying--
So I was lying?
So youre--Arnie, youre saying that
these, these documents do exist but youre
prevented from putting them out on the Internet
because of a lawsuit by the Church.
Well, um, only these copyrighted OT sections Im
prevented from making copies
All right, um, let me, let me turn back to Sylvia.
Sylvia, do you use your lawsuits as a way to hide
the actual beliefs of the Church, and, and hide
your, your teachings on lying and other things?
Do you use these lawsuits
Youre saying our teachings on lying; that
is not true. We dont have a document. They
dont have a document, so lets not
say that. But let me answer your question, which
is, the litigationsArnie Lerma posted over
a thousand negative comments against the Church.
It wasnt until he posted 136 pages of copyrighted
materials, word for word, verbatim, which the
court upheld and said yes, he violated copyright,
that we sued him. So its not a question
of using litigation--
Why do you keep saying its your Trade Secrets
Not using litigation to, um, be involved in, in
attacking critics or anything of that nature,
but involved inif there is a gross copyright
violation, and its an increasing problem
on the InternetMicrosoft has had many copyright
suits, there is new legislation going through
Congress right now about copyrights on the Internet
because it is such a problem.
OK, let me ask you this. I want to speak with
you for a second thenif, then, your Church
is not concerned about money making, why are you
so concerned about protecting the teachings of
the Church? Why do you copyright the teachings
of the Church? For instance, the Christian Church
has the Bible, its available in any hotel
room. If you guys arent so concerned about
money, then why not let everybody have access
to all the documents?
Because one of the very basic traditions are beliefs
of the Church. This is one of the very first policy
letters and its called "Keeping Scientology
Working". Our concern is with people who
then take copyrighted materials, alter them, use
them differently and say that its Scientology--
But why not flood the world with all the documents?
Why not print all the documents and flood the
world with them so that nobody can alter them?
They absolutely are. Theyre in almost every
Right. But I mean, but,but--
But were talking--
OK, so--Arnie, are these documents that you were,
um, sued for, are they in every bookstore, the,
the 61 pages that you were sued for? Can you go
down to the bookstore and find these?
Well, then, conflict here--OK, Sylvia, why didnt
you put these 61 pages in the bookstore?
These are our spiritual beliefs; the people are
not ready for this until theyve finished
the lower levels.
Well does that mean that you want people to pay
in order to find out what these, what these spiritual
No. As I, as I went over--
If I, if I said I was interested in Scientology
and I came over there and wanted to pick up these
61 documents, could I do that? Could I come over--
Because it is our sincerely held religious belief
that youre not ready for it yet. You can
get "Dianetics", you can do co-auditing,
you can become Clear and free of your reactive
mind, which is our word for the negative things
that have happened to you in the past that still
influence you. And by promoting total spiritual
freedom, once youre spiritually free of
those negative things that have happened, then
youre ready for whats called the Operating
Thetan or OT materials. And then you can come
into the Church and, and do this.
OK. Arnie, whats wrong with that? That in
order to, to learn the stages of Scientology youve
gotta be taken through by them, theyve got
to show you the way.
Well, throughout Scientology, um, you know that
there are these secret levels. Before a person
knows the information thats on them, what
any, you know, normal person does is that they
figure that, well, its going to be something
that explains every thing that Ive experienced
so far which doesnt make sense. All right?
And that isand, and they will stay in longer
and spend more money. This is part of the trap.
And, um, when they do find out, the people that
are allowed to find out are only those people
who have had extensive security checking and have
had Eligibility Rundowns, so that they know that
they have every detail about that persons
life copiously detailed, in case they were to
read it and think, wait a minutethis is
Wait a minute, youre saying that if, that
if I were to enter the Church of Scientology,
I would confess all my past indiscretions, everything
that would possibly embarrass me
Eventually they get it all.
And they would have a record of everything that
would ever embarrass me.
So like, you know, why--
Those are protected by priest penitence and which
is part of the Auditors Code which is the
Thats not true--
Tenet of an auditor--
That he will not--
Youll use it when you have to--
Use the secrets divulged by a preclear in session,
outside of session. Youre not allowed to
even talk about something that--if youre
counseling someone and they tell you something,
youre not allowed to tell your husband or
anybody, "Oh, so-and-so told me"--
I think you have forget about that an auditor
should write a report to the Ethics File if he
thinks he has revealed some crimes in session.
Have you read the Auditors Code?
Yes, I was an auditor.
So thats what it says.
Yes, but still--there is a policy also saying
that you should report to the Ethics File--
OK, let me--let me get this straight; Sylvia says
that what you confess--and you confess everything
along the way, I take it--what you confess is
never revealed because there is a clergy-like
relationship between the person auditing and the
person being audited.
We had two--we had two men in Sweden, actually,
who left the Church. They had revealed in auditing
about, um, some--I dont know how you say
it in English--documents--black money? Is that
a word you use? When you get money aside--
Black money or--
Bri--no, not bribes.
Under the table money?
Under the table money, yes. They had revealed
about that in session, and when they left the
Church, the OSA get them in prison. They--it was
OK, as long as they were members in the Church.
So the Church revealed this to a government agency
Yes, after they left--
And got these guys in prison--
But not as long as they were members--
Well, but could that be, could that be a rare
example of where--of where the information got
out in the public?
Um, in a court communication--
Wait a minute--
When part of the Auditors file, so-called
Auditors file, were revealed in the court
room by the auditor who was acting as a Field
Auditor for the Church of Scientology, and it
was revealed that some contents of it, of this
pre--so-called pre-Clear files.
What case was that?
See, this is the problem, you know; she could
I know this case, I know--
I can give you the names of the--
OK, Martin, Martin--
It was the case, it was the case of Steve Markesh.
Steve Markesh was the Field Auditor. He is New
OT-7 and hes Flag public, so-called public
of the Flag Service Organization, and hes
a Field Auditor in Stuttgart; and this happened
OK, go ahead, Sylvia--
I would like to look into that now that I have
Now you can--
Ill look into that and Ill be glad
to get it to you in a week or so to find out whatwhat
the case is. Im sure when the court records
are checked, it probably wont be exactly
Speaking of court records--
You can check with Yodin Schlafsky [spelling?),
you can check with Yodin Schlafsky because he
is [couldnt hear word] Stuttgart.
OK, thank you; I will do that.
All, right, um, Arnie, go ahead, your turn.
Id just like to interject another quote
here from a court record, seeing as how you brought
OK, then I can interject one of my, another quote
Um, "Scientology is evil. Its techniques
are evil. Its practice is a serious threat to
the community, medically, morally and socially;
and its adherents are sadly deluded and often
mentally ill. Scientology is the worlds
largest organization of unqualified persons engaged
in the practice of dangerous techniques which
masquerade as mental therapy."--Justice Anderson,
Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia.
All right, and Sylvia--
And that was--that was in the 60s, which
was overturned by a High Court decision in Australia--
Would you say judges--
In a High Court decision in Australia--yes, and
theyre hard bigots; I mean, I assume it
Justice Anderson is a bigot--
All right, Sylvia, did you want to--
Absolutely. If he makes a comment like that, he
is a bigot.
Sylvia, did you want to read a portion of a court
No, I was gonna read a posting, because this is
what were really talking about. Here he
has Lawrence Wollersheim, another guy whos
down here with these people--
Is he? Where is he?--
He was referring to--"He planned ops against
the Church of Scientology of a military nature.
He told me all about his contacts in the intelligence
community. If I didnt know better I would
knowI would have thought he was an agent."
This is the kind of thing Iand then he talks
about, "I dont know whether the bomb
threat is genuine." You know, this is the
kind of things were talking about
Youre just fabricating something--
This is a posting--
Hoping to pull the wool over another judges
Its a posting which you can read, and there
are plenty of judges--
A posting that I made?
And there are--no, I told you--
But youre trying to encourage her, wasnt
No, I told you, Larry Wollersheim made this posting.
He is a co-founder of FACTNet, but you are also
on the Board of Directors with him.
All right, were, were way over time.
Lets see if we can get squeeze in one or
two more phone calls. Hi, youre on the air.
Thanks for holding on for so long; youre
on the air.
Hi. I was thinking of that quote, you know-- Ross
Perot I think it was who said, you know, "Follow
the money." And since, um, you know, Arnie
and all these guys over there and on how much
attention on money--I was wondering, Sylvia, if
we follow the money, what will we find on these
guys? Whats--whos behind them? Whats--whats
their motivation? Whats their personal motivation,
Thats what Ive been talking about.
I think thats the most interesting thing
that the media tends to ignore is, where IS the
money? Why does this guy Minton give a whole house
to this guy Vaughn Young? For two-hundred and
some thousand dollars, Vaughn Young testified
recently in a deposition.There is a lot of money
being flowed to people like Larry Wollersheim,
Vaughn Young, Arnie Lerma, from this one person.
We dont know. Its a very interesting
question and in fact has been a concern. Suddenly
in Germany we have a protest in Berlin with 10,000
people who show up in Berlin--
No, it was just 2,000--
This just demonstrates--
Let me just--
Police reports say 2,000--
Can I just finish--I didnt cut you, can
And, and this woman shows up at an event the night
before. Now she shows up in Clearwater. Im
sorry, but wheres the money?
I have it myself. I paid for myself.
Youre very rare, then. Because Arnie Lerma
told me hes broke, hes got no money--
Yeah, but I am not--
But he can fly to Florida--
I am not.
Um, um, Sylvia--
I do this because I think--
What do you think the motives--Im sorry,
Sylvia, what do you think the motive here is?
Who is supplying the money, do you think?
Well, I know one person is this guy Bob Minton.
And whats his motive?
I have no idea.
But I know--
And how much money do you think is being supplied
to these folks?
I dont know exactly except for this--
Are we talking hundreds of thousands--
Hundreds of thousands. Two hundred thousand dollar
Do these guys have any court cases? Is there something
that they would stand to, you know, earn lots
If something would happen to the Church?
Arnie Lerma does this right now. Hes not
suing us for anything at the moment but hes
still trying to get money from the Church--
All right, Martin--
Larry Wollersheim has a multi-million dollar--
[couldnt hear word] money from the Church--
Has a multi--Ill tell you in a minute--Larry
Wollersheim has a multi-million dollar suit. Lisa
McPhersons aunt is now suing for $80 million.
Yes, theres definitely an interest in money
and people have things forthcoming
Martin, are you getting paid?
The voyage, the travel was financed through a
friend. I have--right now I have 200 Deutsche
mark in my bank account, and thats it.
What friend? Bob Minton?
No, Peter Rieder [spelling?], he will come on
All right, and, and Birgitta, you paid for it
Let me--as long as were, as long as were
asking you guys about the money, let me ask Sylvia
about the money. Sylvia, how much money does the
Church of Scientology take in every year?
Uh, quite a lot, because there are a lot of people--
Uh, several million dollars--
I dont know the exact figure--several million;
a lot more than $2 million. But I will tell you
because people are interested in the Church and
want to donate to the Church, and theyre
getting something out of it. People dont
give money to the Church if theyre not getting
a benefit, if theyre not feeling better,
if the Scientology counseling and the courses
and the training that theyre doing is not
And you are--
If they dont feel better, if theyre
not more happy, if theyre not spiritually
But youre not--youre not prepared--
They wont be doing it.
OK, but youre not prepared to say how much
money the Church takes in.You--you dont
want to tell us that.
I dont know exactly--
Now, youre the External--youre the
External Affairs Director, so if anybody knows,
its gonna be you.
No, Im the External Affairs for the Founding
Church of Scientology in Washington, D.C.--
But, but you dont know but youre a
top official in the Church--
I know how much, how much the Founding Church
in Washington, D.C. makes--
Well, Im talking about the Church world
wide. You dont know yet youre a top
official in the Church--
Im a top official of the Founding Church
All right, let me turn it over to the guests--about
how much money--
Not the International Church--
Sylvia doesnt know, lets see if the
First of all, she is prohibited to tell anything
about money. Uh, money secrets arent allowed
to go outside of the Church.
Why is that?
I, I did say something about money--
I said we made several million dollars--
Sylvia, you never answered the question. Sylvia,
you never answered the question--
I did; I didnt say the exact figure--
How much--OK, let me turn off--
I said several million dollars--
Let me turn off their microphones, Im gonna
let everybody listen. How much money does the
Church of Scientology world wide take in per year?
More than that.
I dont know the exact figure--
Four? Five? Six?
OK. Now let me--Im gonna turn off your microphone.
Martin and guys, how much money does the Church
take in every year?
The biggest money organization of Scientology
is the Flag Service Organization. Last year she
made approximately $1.4 million dollars a week,
and a third of it goes to the International Management
in Los Angeles. So this is $1.4 million in 60
weeks so this is about $60--$50-60 million.
What does the Church do with its money?
Um, they put it in so-called Sea Org reserve accounts,
and some of them are in Luxembourg, and, um, theyre
using it in stock trades per ex-Scientologists;
I dont know for sure. And, um--
Does anybody get rich from Scientology?
Well, David Miscavige is paid $55,000 a year and
he has no cost for an apartment, for food. He
has the working slaves working for him--
Slaves--working--the RPFers, in--
What does RPF stand for?
Rehabilitation Project Force; its a labor
camp of Scientology--
OK, lets ask, lets ask Sylvia. The
RPF is a slave organization.
Its absolutely not. But I do want to tell
you what Scientology--what the money goes for,
because that is the key question. And the money
goes to disseminate Scientology; Im sure
youve seen TV ads advertising books, advertising
whats going on in the Church. It goes for
community projects. It goes for the Drug-Free
Marshals program. It goes for Winter Wonderland.
It goes to pay for the buildings. It goes to pay
the staff, to pay the heat, pay the electricjust
like any other church--
Money for litigation--
Just like any other church, youve gotta
pay the heat, the gas, the electric, the water,
the food. Of course thats where the money
goes. And thats what--but the chief thing
is why do people donate money to the Church? Because
theyre getting benefits.
All right. And the RPF is not a slave organization,
Arent made to work for free at long hours?
No, absolutely not. Theyre paid, but they,
they also--it is a project that helps people to
rehabilitate themselves if theyve done poorly.
The--many, many, many, many people have written
wonderful things about how its really helped
them and it gave them an opportunity--
[couldnt hear word] write to get out--
Its given them an opportunity to do a lot
better; they feel better having done this program.
And many, many people have written very critical
No, a few--
A very few who [couldnt hear word] out,
I can--from my archives, I can give you 100 reports.
Were--were gonna give out some phone
numbers and some Internet addresses in just a
moment. Were way over time, but let me--let
me ask one more question and lets take one
more phone call. Um, Sylvia Stanard of the Church
of Scientology, uh, how did Lisa McPherson die?
What was the cause of death?
Um, um, lung--a blood clot in the lung, pulmonary--
Was she suffering from dehydration?
Absolutely not. There are two new slides which
have just been released which were not released
before which prove conclusively she was not dehydrated.
Why couldnt you--
And the interesting thing--we didnt have
them; we sued for them and they were suppressed
by the Medical Examiner and they were just recently
released when we went to get the original slides;
and that is what weve been talking about
Was Lisa McPherson held against her will?
You guys wanna say anything?
Well, I know of one incident in 1991, when my
roommate, whose name is Len Thomas, told me that
he had to babywatch a person in the Sandcastle
who was held there behind closed doors because
she was crazy; nuts in his own words.
And, and where is the Sandcastle? Is that--
Sandcastle Hotel--its, uh, its one
building of the, uh, Flag Land Base where all
the--where all different Scientologist Organizations
If people are having, um, having troubles, psychotic
episodes, are they held against their will?
No. But obviously if somebody is completely psychotic,
then youre helping them or you take them
to a doctor. My mother-in-law has had frequent
psychotic type episodes, and shes not a
Scientologist. But yes, when we took--when we
were taking her to the hospital, if she tries
to open the door, yeah, you grab her arm and make
sure she doesnt open the door. That--it
happens all the time.
Is part of the treatment for psychotic episodes
depriving people of water and food?
Absolutely not, and that didnt happen to
All right. Lets take one more phone call,
and--Hi, youre on the air. Thanks for calling
Oh, hi, Rob. Its an interesting session
you have here today; particularly interesting
to hear how the woman from Scientology answers
her critics. She uses the ad hominem argument.
She attacks them personally or even attacks other
people personally who she says theyre associated
with, and will not reveal one penny about Scientology.
My only advice is, if youre gonna buy something
and they wont tell you how much it costs
and are particularly evasive about it, you take
your tail and run. Scientology is a money machine;
thats what its all about.
All right, thanks a lot. Uh, Sylvia--thanks for
your call--Sylvia, do you want to respond to that?
Yes. If somebody wants to find out about Scientology,
go to a bookstore, read a book. Thats the
truth. Thats what Scientology is all about.
Its in writing, its not a parable.
Its not me telling you something. Its
not Arnie Lerma telling you something. Its
not somebody from Germany telling you something.
Its what Mr. Hubbard said. Read it for yourself;
make your own decision. Come for a tour of the
Church. Its open to all, all the time. Come
in and look.
All right, on that note, Im gonna end this,
and I want to thank all of you for coming here
today. Uh, Sylvia Stanard of the Church of Scientology,
how can folks get in touch with you or find out
more about the position that, that you represent?
Well, Im actually here just for a couple
of days. Im usually in Washington, D.C.
But anybody can check our web site at www.scientology.org
or www.dianetics.org or www.lronhubbard.org. So
they can look on the Internet and look at our
web site. They can call the Church. They can come
into the Fort Harrison and have a tour any time
All right, well Sylvia, thanks a lot. And let
me ask Arnie Lerma--Arnie, if folks want to get,
get in touch with you, how can they do it?
Um, my address is on my web site at www.lermanet.com.
Or they can go to www.xenu.com.
OK. And Birgitta, if folks want to get in touch
with you, is there a way that we can do it? I
know youre from Sweden so youre not
here. This is the one time youll be here.
Uh, well, I dont really know how people
from the States can contact me. I mean, I have
a private phone number.
OK. Well, and let me just leave it at that. And
I have an e-mail address--its a little bit
complicated: Rashid Ahmed@ hotmail.com.Im
especially interested in people who were in Scientology
and their experiences. Im open for their
Yes, I have an e-mail address.
Oh, you can give that.
OK--that sounds like a happy one. Well, thanks
a lot for coming in; I enjoyed it. Thanks for
coming in and again if folks want to find out
more about anything that went on here today, you
can talk to our guests, you can call us at 238-8001,
and some of them may hang around for a few minutes
after the show. And if you have comments about
todays show, you can call us at 238-8001
and leave a message on extension 18. Im
Rob Lorei and this has been Radio Activity.
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