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and there was some concern she would hurt herself in the
hotel, and that were she to leave, she could get run over
in the street, and I had that responsibility that I had
assumed myself to make sure she didn’t hurt herself in
that way. And I was trying to handle that from my -- my

Alphonso he made a statement under oath that said “Lisa
could not leave or could she have any visitors without the
permission of Paul Kellerhals.”

Okay, so am I to believe now that -— all along
in all of our interviews, my belief was Alain Kartuzinski
was the boss in making all of the decisions, especially
with the church, like the military. They are very
organized and have a strict chain of command usually in
the church. So I was thinking all along that Alain
Kartuzinski was the one making decisions.

Now, now Alphonso tells me that she could not
leave or have visitors, and I think it even went as far as
“If her mom wanted to visit her, would you let her visit
her?” And, “No,” it was, “Not without Paul Kellerhals’
permission.”

And I was assuming you were getting your orders
from Alain Kartuzinski, but now you are telling me you
were high enough up in the organization to make decisions

KANABAY COURT REPORTERS — 813-821-3320