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VOLUME VIII TRIAL
TRANSCRIPTS, 2-16-01
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE
ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida
corporation,
Petitioner,
vs.
ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL.,
Respondents.
BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.
PLACE: Pinellas County Judicial Building
545 First Avenue North
St. Petersburg, Florida
DATE: February 16, 2001
TIME: Commencing at 9:00 A.M.
REPORTED BY: JACKIE L. OSTROM
Court Reporter
---------------------------------------------------
ORDERS TO SHOW CASE
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Pages 940 - 1063
Volume VIII
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
P.O. BOX 35
CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
(727) 443-0992
.
APPEARANCES
The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.
CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE
F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE ET AL
911 Chestnut
Clearwater, Florida
HELENA KOBRIN, ESQUIRE
MOXON AND KOBRIN
3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
Los Angeles, California 90010
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship
Organization
JOHN MERRETT, ESQUIRE
2716 Herschel Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
BRUCE G. HOWIE, ESQUIRE
PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE AND WERNER
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida 33707
Attorneys for Robert Minton and
Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.
. 942
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett,
3 ready to call your next witness?
4 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, I would at
5 this point publish the video.
6 THE COURT: Right. Okay. Did you have
7 a chance to see it?
8 MR. POPE: We did and I have not had an
9 opportunity to cross-examine the witness,
10 Ms. Brooks, who identified this video and I
11 wish to do that.
12 THE COURT: Okay. I allowed you to do
13 that before and what we'll do is we'll put
14 Ms. Brooks back on the stand and then I'll
15 give Mr. Pope the opportunity it do that.
16 MR. POPE: And that was also the issue
17 remaining which we'll take up in a minute.
18 THE COURT: The finances?
19 MR. POPE: The finances.
20 THE COURT: All right. We'll get to
21 that in a few minutes. Take your time. Take
22 your time.
23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. POPE:
25 Q Good morning, Ms. Brooks.
. 943
1 A Good morning, Mr. Pope.
2 Q You identified this tape that Mr. Merrett
3 wishes to play for us yesterday and I believe that you
4 were present when the tape was made?
5 A Yes, I was.
6 Q And it was made at the Tampa airport?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And it was made in July of 2000, correct?
9 A Yes, that is correct.
10 Q Some five months at least before this
11 injunction that's at issue was even issued, correct?
12 A Yes. Well, actually wasn't there an
13 injunction issued before?
14 Q There may have been an earlier injunction in
15 place, although I believe that it expired in May and
16 there was no injunction in place in July, as I recall?
17 A Okay, but I don't think the reason for
18 showing the videotape was to show any violation of the
19 injunction. It was to show the kinds of things that
20 we feel it's necessary to videotape and to document.
21 Q Okay.
22 A The interaction between critics of
23 Scientology and Scientology operatives.
24 Q And this videotape is the videotape of the
25 arrival in Tampa from Germany of a woman names Ursula
. 944
1 Caberta, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q That's U-R-S-U-L-A C-A-B-E-R-T-A.
4 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Thank
5 you.
6 BY MR. POPE:
7 Q And Ursula Caberta is a government official
8 in Hamburg, Germany, isn't she?
9 A Yes, she's the head of the Scientology task
10 force for the Hamburg government.
11 Q Known as the working group on Scientology?
12 A Yes, but a better translation into English
13 would be task force.
14 Q And she is currently under investigation by
15 the Hamburg government for accepting money from
16 Mr. Minton, isn't she?
17 A I believe that investigation has concluded.
18 As far as I know there was no -- the government found
19 no evidence in any kind of wrongdoing there.
20 Q And what she does is she promotes the use of
21 forms among German businesses whereby prospective
22 employees have to swear that they don't follow any of
23 the teachings of L. Rob Hubbard; is that right?
24 A Actually that's incorrect.
25 Q That's incorrect?
. 945
1 A Yes.
2 Q Well, tell me what's correct?
3 A What's correct is that she has -- the
4 Hamburg government has been approached by many
5 businesses --
6 MR. POPE: Excuse me.
7 THE COURT: Just a second. Just one
8 second. I'll be right back.
9 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
10 place.)
11 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. Go
12 ahead.
13 MR. POPE: Your Honor, to the extent the
14 witness is attempting to testify about what
15 businesses have approached the Hamburg
16 government and this sort of thing, it's way
17 outside of her area of competence and it's
18 hearsay.
19 MS. BROOKS: Well, but --
20 MR. POPE: Excuse me.
21 THE COURT: Just a minute. Hold on.
22 Let me play here.
23 MR. MERRETT: If I may.
24 THE COURT: Sir?
25 MR. MERRETT: If I may?
. 946
1 THE COURT: Okay. Let me hear from you.
2 MR. MERRETT: That problem with that
3 objection is that Mr. Pope posited a
4 statement with which he asked he to agree
5 with was similarly outside her direct
6 knowledge asking was it not true that
7 Ms. Caberta was pushing this document.
8 I believe she is entitled within the
9 same scope of knowledge or non-knowledge to
10 tell what the real story is. I mean he's
11 opened the door and now he's griping about
12 it.
13 THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Whoa.
14 There's two ways to handle this. I simply
15 say overruled, answer, or okay, ask her to be
16 more direct and you're going to have cross.
17 MR. MERRETT: I guess my point in
18 Mr. Pope actually is objecting to his own
19 question.
20 THE COURT: Within -- I guess it could
21 be interpreted that way. What I'm going to
22 do is this. I'm going to allow her to answer
23 to the best of her ability this question, but
24 let's try and stay on point and if that
25 doesn't satisfy everybody, you each have a
. 947
1 chance to get back into it.
2 MR. POPE: Okay.
3 MR. MERRETT: All right.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
5 MS. BROOKS: What I was trying to
6 clarify, Mr. Pope, is that you are saying she
7 is promoting this thing and I'm just trying
8 to clarify for you that it's not a matter
9 that she is promoting the signing of this
10 declaration. In fact what's happened is that
11 businesses have a approached the Hamburg
12 government because they are been concerned
13 about Scientology front groups, basically
14 management consulting firms, who go in to
15 companies and do not reveal that they are
16 actually there to promote the Hubbard
17 technology and then they get into the company
18 and it's only later that the company
19 discovers that this is what they're been
20 doing and they've found it to be very
21 detrimental so they approached the government
22 and asked for the government to some up with
23 a way that the companies can legally and
24 legitimately ascertain at the outset whether
25 or not this consulting firm is planning to
. 948
1 indoctrinate its employees into Hubbard
2 technology and it's simply a matter of full
3 disclosure.
4 It's not a matter of any kind of -- it's
5 really not a matter of anything but full
6 disclosure and it's something that the
7 businesses have requested. It's not
8 something that the government is pushing at
9 all.
10 THE COURT: Now, let me ask you
11 something. When you're talking about the
12 Hamburg government, Hamburg is a city.
13 MS. BROOKS: It's a state.
14 MR. POPE: A city, state, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Well, all right. That's
16 what I wanted to -- you're not trying to say
17 Hamburg encompasses all of Germany?
18 MS. BROOKS: No, no, no, just the State
19 of Hamburg. It's a task force of the Hamburg
20 government, not of the Federal Republic of
21 Germany.
22 THE COURT: I see. Okay. Then you said
23 something else. You said Hubbard technology.
24 MS. BROOKS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Is it Hubbard technology or
. 949
1 Hubbard philosophy.
2 MS. BROOKS: No, it's the Hubbard
3 business technology. Basically what happens,
4 Your Honor, is that a management consulting
5 group will go into a business and they will
6 promote the Hubbard management technology in
7 that business.
8 The company will then begin to adopt
9 some of these Hubbard business practices
10 without realizing that it's part of the
11 overall Scientology technology and in the
12 sense that -- then, what will happen is once
13 they started to use the business technology
14 of Hubbard they will then be urged to start
15 going to the Church of Scientology and start
16 getting other services that are beyond the
17 Hubbard business technology and this is what
18 the business have been concerned about is
19 that they feel that it's in a certain way
20 well, really fraudulent because the business
21 consulting firm is saying that it's only
22 there to help the business practice but in
23 fact what it later turns out is that they're
24 there to sort of get a wedge in by the
25 business practice and then really what their
. 950
1 intention is, is to get these people to
2 become full blown Scientologists and this
3 has caused problems for some the these
4 businesses and so they have asked the
5 government to give them a way in which they
6 can ascertain if the people that are coming
7 in with their business seminars are coming
8 in with Hubbard technology or not.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Now, there have been
10 United Congressional hearings through on
11 religious supression in Germany and stuff by
12 congressional committees and --
13 MS. BROOKS: As a matter of fact I've
14 sat in on that hearing, Your Honor, and there
15 was quite a bit of incorrect information that
16 was given during that hearing because as far
17 as Germany is concerned they do not recognize
18 Scientology as a religion. In Germany
19 Scientology is classified as an extremist
20 political movement.
21 THE COURT: That's all of the country
22 now, not just Hamburg?
23 MS. BROOKS: Yes, but also including
24 Hamburg, so, you know, it's -- what's
25 happened in with a number of the
. 951
1 congressional -- members of this committee,
2 the House International Relations Committee
3 is that they have been misinformed basically.
4 In other words, it's not really fair for
5 the U.S. government to condemn Germany or
6 any other country in Europe for their stand
7 on Scientology when that country has not
8 recognized Scientology as a religion and,
9 you know, in 1993 the IRS granted
10 Scientology its tax exception and since that
11 time the United States government has dealt
12 with Scientology as a religion because it
13 got its tax exception as a religion, but up
14 until that time the U.S. government was
15 dealing with Scientology in much the same
16 way that the European countries are dealing
17 with Scientology now and in fact a lot of
18 information has come out about some of the
19 people, some of the Scientologists who have
20 claimed religious discrimination in Germany
21 for example it has turned out upon further
22 investigation that they were -- that it was
23 not a matter of their being discriminated
24 against because of their religion.
25 It was a matter of they're having legal
. 952
1 difficulties or other kinds of problems and
2 it really didn't have anything to with
3 Germany discriminating against them as a
4 Scientologist because of their religion.
5 THE COURT: When you say that the
6 Congressional International Relation
7 Committees was given disinformation, has
8 anything been done to get more information to
9 that committee?
10 MS. BROOKS: Yes. As a matter of fact
11 at the Lisa McPherson Trust one of the things
12 that we're working on right now is putting
13 together a packet of information so that they
14 can get the correct information.
15 We've, you know -- I felt when was I
16 there that it was not enough for me to give
17 them my opinion or for me to sort of act as
18 a communicator for the Germany government.
19 I wanted to take the time to gather enough
20 documentation of our own that when I
21 presented the package to our congressmen
22 they would see that the kinds of situations
23 that Germany is concerned about is also
24 happening in the United States with their
25 own constituency and that's taken me a
. 953
1 little bit of time, but we now enough
2 information that we can do that.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope.
4 BY MR. POPE:
5 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, you do recognize
6 that courts in Germany have recognized Scientology as
7 a religion; you understand that?
8 A I don't believe that's the case.
9 Q You don't think so, all right. And you do
10 understand that in Germany the government levies a
11 church tax on everybody in the country which is sent
12 to the church of your choice which is usually Catholic
13 or Protestant, which makes that country's relationship
14 between church and state substantially different from
15 the United States?
16 A Yes, it's very different there than it is
17 here.
18 Q In fact the state meddles quite a bit more
19 in religious matters in Germany than it does in United
20 States because we have the protection of the First
21 Amendment, correct?
22 A That's incorrect, sir.
23 Q That's wrong, is it?
24 A It's wrong to characterize it as meddling,
25 because the German government has it own constitution.
. 954
1 Because of its experience with Nazism in the thirties
2 and forties they have an office for the protection of
3 the constitution in that country which our country
4 does not and they deal with extremist political
5 movements in a much more, I guess I would say
6 concerned way, than we do in the United States because
7 of their experience.
8 Q People don't -- people in Germany aren't the
9 beneficiaries of the United States Constitution Bill
10 of Rights, are they?
11 A No, they're the beneficiaries of the German
12 government's office for the protection of the
13 constitution.
14 Q All right?
15 A Mr. Pope, and the other thing that I think
16 you should realize is that there was a lawsuit filed
17 about the Hubbard Declaration in Hamburg and the court
18 in Hamburg threw the lawsuit out and found that the
19 Hubbard Declaration was in fact constitutional and was
20 in fact a legal document, so one of the problems that
21 we have is the difference between the government in
22 the United States and the government in Germany and as
23 I was telling Judge Penick, it's a little unfair for
24 you to characterize what German government is doing in
25 terms of the United States because the German
. 955
1 government has its own set of laws and its own
2 constitution.
3 Q And I suppose you would feel the same way
4 about the Soviet Union, we shouldn't have criticized
5 the way they ran their country back then either, huh?
6 MR. MERRETT: I'll object.
7 MS. BROOKS: I beg your pardon?
8 MR. MERRETT: -- and argumentative.
9 MR. POPE: I'll withdraw the question,
10 Your Honor.
11 MS. BROOKS: I don't really think that's
12 appropriate.
13 BY MR. POPE:
14 Q Let me ask you if will concede this, that
15 the United States Trade Commission and the United
16 States State Department both condemn discrimination
17 practices in Germany against Scientologist? That's
18 true, isn't it?
19 A I believe there is a little bit more to that
20 than that.
21 Q But is that true? Is that true, basically
22 is that essentially true what I just asked you?
23 A They have issued statements condemning it,
24 however I'd like to add a little bit of information to
25 clarify that for you.
. 956
1 Q Go right ahead.
2 A Well, basically what happened and this was
3 reported in several media publications and it was also
4 talked about on Meet the Press, by Sandy Burger, the
5 President Clinton's Security Advisor, but basically
6 what happened was President Clinton made a deal with
7 John Travolta, that --
8 MR. POPE: Object. Your Honor --
9 THE COURT: Let her answer. Let her
10 answer.
11 MR. POPE: All right.
12 THE COURT: I admit we're out here a
13 ways, but let's just go ahead.
14 MS. BROOKS: But this is really what
15 happened.
16 THE COURT: Okay. I said you can
17 answer.
18 MS. BROOKS: It was reported in the
19 media.
20 MR. POPE: Your Honor, she's testifying
21 from what has appeared in a newspaper, you
22 know.
23 THE COURT: Well, I'll give that the
24 credibility I feel it deserves.
25 MR. POPE: As long as the court
. 957
1 recognizes the incompetency of the basic
2 proposition.
3 MR. MERRETT: Well, I don't know --
4 look, let's just let her testify and I'll see
5 where it came from and if it's from the media
6 we'll just work on it, okay.
7 MS. BROOKS: Your Honor, Sandy Burger,
8 the Security Advisor with also discuss this
9 issue.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. I said you
11 may answer.
12 MS. BROOKS: Okay. Basically, John
13 Travolta was going to play the Clinton
14 character in Primary Colors and Clinton told
15 John Travolta that if he would characterize
16 him in a positive way in that movie, Clinton
17 would have his security advisor deal with the
18 issues that John Travolta was concerned,
19 which was the way Scientology was being
20 treated in Germany and for that reason
21 Clinton assigned Sandy Berger to issue this
22 condemnation and Sandy Berger actually
23 discussed this on television and I'm sure you
24 would be able to get a transcript of that TV
25 show if you would be interested in doing so,
. 958
1 so, you know, there is a little bit of --
2 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I wonder if
3 Ms. Kobrin and Mr. Shaw could keep their
4 voices down a little here so I can hear what
5 the witness is saying.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Please, folks, let's
7 do this. Maybe -- what I'm pausing to think
8 is to how I can help Mr. Pope here with this
9 note passing and there is kind of gap here.
10 Maybe if you move back a little closer.
11 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I'm getting ready
12 to move off this subject.
13 THE COURT: Okay, because I was just
14 going to say let's go back and see how we got
15 over here this it corridor.
16 The lady came from Germany and she
17 worked for the Hamburg Government and she
18 was promoting these forms.
19 MS. BROOKS: No, sir.
20 THE COURT: Scratch that. I'm sorry.
21 There was a question about some forms, so can
22 we get back to that?
23 MR. POPE: Yes, I'll be happy to direct
24 us back to where we were.
25 THE COURT: I have one more question.
. 959
1 MR. POPE: Okay.
2 THE COURT: Why was the French
3 government here yesterday, or excuse me, the
4 French media? I mean is France into this
5 thing like Germany?
6 MS. BROOKS: It's a major issue in
7 France.
8 THE COURT: It is also?
9 MS. BROOKS: It's a major issue in
10 France. They are very, very concerned about
11 the Scientology issue in France.
12 THE COURT: Any other European
13 countries?
14 MS. BROOKS: Yes, Belgium is very
15 concerned about it, Austria is very concerned
16 about it, England, Italy, Greece.
17 THE COURT: Italy?
18 MS. BROOKS: Yes. Greece has
19 actually --
20 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let's go
21 back. They're making end roads in Italy?
22 MS. BROOKS: Oh, yeah. The Italian
23 courts actually arrested I think it was close
24 to 200 Scientologists a couple years ago for
25 fraud and now that whole issue is still an
. 960
1 issue in the courts in Italy.
2 In Greece they banned Scientology
3 because they discovered that Scientologists
4 had somehow or another come into possession
5 of top secret government documents and they
6 were very concerned that th same thing that
7 happened in the United States in the late,
8 in the seventies that led to criminal
9 indictments and convictions was happening in
10 Greece where Scientology operatives were
11 infiltrating government offices and stealing
12 documents, so it is a major issue, Your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MS. BROOKS: It's not just --
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MS. BROOKS: And, you know, the
18 governments in the European countries are
19 dealing with it in a very much more serious
20 way. They see it as a much more serious
21 threat than the courts in the United States
22 see it and Scientology is very, very,
23 very -- is trying very, very hard to
24 characterize the concern in Europe as
25 religious discrimination and it's very much
. 961
1 not the case.
2 It's very much not the case. It is not
3 religious discrimination in Europe.
4 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. There
5 is the Lisa McPherson Trust and you're saying
6 that you all are trying to put forth
7 information about Scientology.
8 MS. BROOKS: Well --
9 THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Just
10 listen to me. Are you the only organization
11 in the United States or are you the central
12 focus group or how would you classify the
13 Trust in your organization in this cause?
14 MS. BROOKS: Your Honor, we are the only
15 organization in the United States that is --
16 there are individuals throughout the United
17 States, but we are the only organization that
18 is actually established to help people have
19 been harmed by Scientology. We have five to
20 ten people week, sometimes more than that,
21 calling us, e-mailing us, I mean from all
22 over the world, not just in the United
23 states, people who have been lost all their
24 money to Scientology, people who have lost
25 their loved ones to Scientology, people who
. 962
1 are being harassed by Scientology, I mean
2 it's really an almost overwhelming situation
3 that we're trying to deal with. The most --
4 the thing that we're organized to do more
5 than anything else is to help people who are,
6 well, as Mr. Pope read into the record
7 yesterday, our purpose is to help people who
8 have been abused or deceived by Scientology
9 and that's what we spend our time doing.
10 That's what we spend our time doing.
11 THE COURT: Well, how do you help
12 people?
13 MS. BROOKS: Well, we have them relate
14 their, you know, put their information in
15 affidavit form, you know, so that it's
16 legitimate testimony and we have them -- we
17 help them and kind of serve as clearing house
18 for people also where we educate them about
19 the different federal and state agencies that
20 there are available in the United States to
21 help with whatever particular kinds of
22 situations they've encountered.
23 If they've been defrauded, you know, we
24 direct them to the correct federal and state
25 agencies that would deal with those kinds of
. 963
1 issues.
2 If it's a matter of violation of child
3 labor laws or some sort the of child abuse,
4 then we direct them to the correct agency
5 that are concerned with those kinds of
6 situations.
7 If it's a medical situation where
8 someone has been ordered off their
9 medication for a particular illness or if
10 they have been ordered to stop taking
11 prescribed psychiatric medication as a
12 condition of employment, for example, we
13 refer them to the correct agencies of the
14 United States government that would be
15 concerned with those kind of issues, but
16 basically what we're doing which has really
17 never been done before is we're helping
18 people to become educated about what parts
19 of our government and what laws in our
20 country apply to the kinds of harm that
21 people are being subjected to by this
22 organization. And, Your Honor, I have to
23 tell you that it has nothing to do with the
24 beliefs of Scientology.
25 We make it very, very clear to people
. 964
1 who call us that the only thing we're
2 concerned with is violations of the law and
3 those are the only things that we deal with.
4 THE COURT: Violations of the law?
5 MS. BROOKS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: Okay. And you say you're
7 helping people and it sounds like you are
8 sort of Don Quixote against all the windmills
9 and do you type -- what type staff, what type
10 help can you give? You know, are you doing
11 this all by yourself?
12 MS. BROOKS: Well, we have a staff of
13 about eight people and we work really long
14 hours and, you know, we're trying to make
15 contact with people in other countries that
16 are also helping these people so that we can
17 get more help for ourselves for what we're
18 trying to do, but it's really -- it's really
19 difficult work.
20 We try to help the people that are
21 coming to us and are willing to challenge
22 some of their practices that people wouldn't
23 be being hurt the way that they are being
24 hurt by them and we've tried very hard to
25 get Scientology to listen to us.
. 965
1 We've tried to have meetings with -- we
2 have had meetings with them. We've tried to
3 appeal to them to stop these things. And
4 instead of being willing to consider the
5 possibility that they be doing something
6 wrong, they respond by attacking us and
7 that's the truth.
8 I'm not saying that we're prefect, Your
9 Honor. We're not angels, you know.
10 Certainly, we've all made mistakes and we've
11 done things wrong, but that doesn't change
12 the fact that there's things that need to be
13 changed about Scientology and that's what
14 we're trying to bring about.
15 THE COURT: So you're trying to be heard
16 in the streets and also work in the offices
17 and behind the scenes?
18 MS. BROOKS: Yes, sir.
19 THE COURT: And you say you're putting
20 out literature and information other than
21 protests and things like that, signs, I mean,
22 do you have --
23 MS. BROOKS: Just protest stuff.
24 THE COURT: Do you have a wealth of
25 materials out there?
. 966
1 MS. BROOKS: Yes, Your Honor, we do, and
2 really, Your Honor, you need to understand
3 that the protesting and the picketing is --
4 it isn't even part of what the Lisa McPherson
5 Trust does. It's really true what these guys
6 were telling you yesterday.
7 These guys have been protesting
8 Scientology long before there was such a
9 thing as the Lisa McPherson Trust.
10 You know, some of the people that are
11 part of the Lisa McPherson Trust also feel
12 that protesting and picketing is a valid
13 form of making their own feelings known
14 about Scientology, but, I mean, you know, I
15 don't have time to do that.
16 You know, most of the people at the Lisa
17 McPherson Trust don't picket. That's not
18 what we're there to do. And really we've
19 tried to make it clear that most of the
20 people that go and picket are not part of
21 the Lisa McPherson Trust, they're not staff
22 of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and people who
23 are employed by the Lisa McPherson Trust
24 never do that on their business hours. It's
25 not part of anybody's job at the Lisa
. 967
1 McPherson Trust to picket.
2 You know, some of the people will tell
3 you that I really think that sometimes the
4 picketing detracts from the work that we're
5 trying to do because it makes you and other
6 people think that that's our work and it's
7 not. You know, it's just that picketing is
8 a valid form of expression in this country
9 and people have a right to do it. You know
10 what I'm saying? Scientology doesn't want
11 people to be able to criticize them. They
12 don't like to be criticized.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope.
14 BY MR. POPE:
15 Q Let's get back to the airport in July of
16 2000, the arrival of Ms. Caberta. What your videotape
17 shows is that a group of mostly German Scientologists
18 protesting her arrival, correct?
19 A No, Mr. Pope.
20 Q What does it show then?
21 A I mean it has about three or four German
22 Scientologists, but mostly it's Clearwater
23 Scientologists out there organized by the Office of
24 Special Affairs, Ben Shaw who's sitting there with you
25 and others of the Office of Special Affairs people
. 968
1 were there at the airport directing these people where
2 to go, what to do and, you know, you'll see in the
3 video that as soon as Ms. Caberta emerged from the --
4 what do you call that thing when you get off the plane
5 and you walk through that tunnel, you know whatever,
6 into the terminal, the first person you'll see is
7 screaming Nazi, Nazi at Ms. Caberta is not a German
8 Scientologists. He's an American name Ian Shelton
9 whose been in Scientology since I was there and he's
10 been doing OSA volunteer work for many, many years.
11 You know, this was a calculated effort to
12 embarrass Ms. Caberta to harass and intimidate her.
13 It had nothing to do with German Scientologists
14 venting their sincere feelings.
15 You know, these people, these German
16 Scientologists also came and harassed us at
17 Ms. Caberta's hotel, laughing at us, baiting us,
18 heckling us, interrupting us at dinner, coming over to
19 our dinner table saying you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi.
20 Why don't you leave our country. You're a Nazi,
21 You're a Nazi. You know, come on.
22 Q These folks who greeted Ms. Caberta were not
23 venting their sincere feelings; is that what you're
24 saying?
25 A The reason that I'm telling you that is
. 969
1 because several of them were laughing at me make,
2 making a mockery of me and our work and making it very
3 clear that their intention was to harass her and it is
4 seemed very clear to me from the OSA people that were
5 at the airport that it was being directed by the
6 Office of Special Affairs.
7 Q You do you agree that they were exercising
8 that same right of free speech this you contend you're
9 entitled to exercise on the streets of Clearwater?
10 A Yes, but I think that they were doing it in
11 an extremely harassing way and I think the videotape
12 shows that.
13 Q Okay.
14 A You know, nobody arrested them, Mr. Pope.
15 MR. POPE: I have no further questions
16 of this issue, Your Honor. Let me renew
17 based upon this somewhat rambling discourse
18 we've had about church and state in Germany,
19 back to the main issue we have a tape here
20 that was recorded five months before this
21 court's injunction that doesn't prove or
22 disprove any aspect of the central question
23 before the court and that is did the named
24 defendants violate your injunction or not?
25 That's all that's before you today.
. 970
1 We got way far field on this and this
2 tape doesn't prove or disprove any of that
3 and I would object to its publication, Your
4 Honor, and I don't know if you want to hear
5 from Mr. Merrett on that now?
6 THE COURT: Yeah.
7 MR. POPE: And deal with the financial
8 thing later.
9 THE COURT: Certainly. Mr. Merrett.
10 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, the witness --
11 THE COURT: Did you want to ask any
12 questions first?
13 MR. MERRETT: No, sir.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. MERRETT: And with respect to
16 Mr. Pope's objections, our walk through the
17 lilies of the valleys was occasioned by his
18 cross-examination. The videotape was offered
19 to show what it is that the LMT videotapes.
20 In other words what sort of things as opposed
21 to videotaping people getting in and out of
22 their cars and people eating lunch and things
23 like that.
24 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Howie, sir.
25 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I join in his
. 971
1 position. After all, it was Mr. Pope who
2 raised the issue, well, don't you take
3 surveillance photos too and by way of her
4 explanation is to the use of the video camera
5 by Lisa McPherson Trust and those associated
6 with them, this is a legitimate response to
7 his own cross-examination.
8 MR. POPE: Your Honor, what possible
9 issue is prove or disproved by what sorts of
10 things that they videotape? That doesn't go
11 to any issue that is currently before this
12 court.
13 MR. MERRETT: If I may, the problem is
14 the issue came up through Mr. Pope's
15 examination of this witness.
16 THE COURT: Let's show the video.
17 Gentlemen, in America, the press actually
18 stays within that area. I can't allow you to
19 roam around the courtroom. That's the way we
20 have it in our policies.
21 What we can do is we're going to turn
22 this around and I'll ask that you turn, you
23 may step down, have a seat out there on the
24 bench but I think that where you are at you
25 will be able to see it. We'll come to you
. 972
1 rather than you come to us. Okay. I'll
2 step down also.
3 (Whereupon, the videotape was played.)
4 MR. MERRETT: That's Al Butler?
5 MS. BROOKS: That's Al Butler.
6 THE COURT: That's who?
7 MS. BROOKS: His name is Al Butler.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
9 (Whereupon, videotape was played.)
10 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a
11 minute. Wait a minute.
12 MS. BROOKS: Your Honor, This is another
13 camera at the same scene.
14 THE COURT: All right. Wait a minute.
15 Wait a minute. Hold it. She is on the
16 stand. I don't know what's going on here,
17 you get back.
18 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, so the court
19 is aware, he's another one of her attorneys.
20 THE COURT: I don't know him, he hasn't
21 been introduced. There's a new white rose
22 suddenly here, she's on the witness stand and
23 I don't allow you to talk to her when she's
24 on the witness stand.
25 MR. MERRETT: I understand, Your Honor.
. 973
1 THE COURT: Let's take a break. Bring
2 him in my chambers.
3 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
4 THE COURT: You get up on the witness
5 stand.
6 (Thereupon, the following proceedings were
7 had in the Judge's chambers:)
8 THE COURT: All right. What's going on?
9 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, this is --
10 THE COURT: Has he filed a notice of
11 appearance or anything?
12 MR. MERRETT: He is a member of the Bars
13 of France and Italy, Jean-Michel and I've
14 forgotten his last name.
15 MR. PESENTI: Pesenti.
16 THE COURT: Okay, and I guess it's
17 somebody I don't know anything about and I
18 suddenly have witness who I allow to get off
19 the stand the help with a video and then I
20 see somebody passing notes and whispering to
21 her and everything else, and quite frankly,
22 explain to me what's going on before I put
23 all of her testimony in the hopper.
24 MR. MERRETT: I understand.
25 THE COURT: Garbage can.
. 974
1 MR. MERRETT: If he can, his --
2 obviously English is not his first language
3 or even his third language. If you can
4 explain to the court what you were
5 communicating with Ms. Brooks about.
6 MR. PESENTI: I just write something for
7 her, this is Stacy Brooks. I am French Stacy
8 Brooks' attorney, Mr. President.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. MERRETT: And you're who he's
11 addressing as Mr. President, because that's
12 what the judge is called in France.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. POPE: Perhaps we should see what
15 he's written to her.
16 THE COURT: Yeah.
17 MR. PESENTI: It was nothing --
18 THE COURT: Yeah, let's put it in the
19 record.
20 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor --
21 THE COURT: Put it in the record.
22 MR. MERRETT: If I may, Your Honor, I
23 don't have a problem with that.
24 MR. PESENTI: Nothing. I don't write
25 nothing about --
. 975
1 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I didn't
2 tell you it's you're turn.
3 MR. MERRETT: The inside of that, Your
4 Honor, what you're reading now is a note that
5 had previously given to me that was on the
6 table.
7 THE COURT: Here's the problem where we
8 got off track here is he wasn't introduced or
9 anything else.
10 MR. MERRETT: I understand.
11 THE COURT: And I didn't know whether,
12 you know, it's a new face in the crowd and
13 this is something that we've been watching
14 real close with security and everything and
15 my bailiffs need to know when there is a new
16 white rose because nobody else and if you
17 keep passing these things around and suddenly
18 we've got new faces and new players, I can't
19 control security and it becomes a major issue
20 and, you know, we certainly have laws
21 regarding a witness and all and I've been a
22 little lax so they could go back and
23 everybody could see that video, but I'm going
24 to have to put a chair somewhere where nobody
25 can get to anybody that's a witness. We know
. 976
1 that this is just absolutely and here,
2 Mr. Pope, you can see this. Just the
3 outside.
4 The inside they say was from attorney to
5 attorney and I can't tell what the inside
6 said anyway, but the point being we've got
7 to be careful here. I'm trying to do this
8 the best I can, but don't slip in somebody
9 new on me and then not expect to put your
10 case in severe jeopardy.
11 MR. MERRETT: Had I realized he was
12 coming up, Judge, I would have introduced
13 him. So far he's only come up to be to offer
14 suggestions and assistance and I didn't know
15 he was up there.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. MERRETT: I'm assuming they do
18 things differently in France.
19 THE COURT: Yeah, but I can't allow it
20 here so we've got to get this straightened
21 out. Now, again. I want a business card and
22 everything for the record. Do we have a
23 business card?
24 MR. MERRETT: He said he has one out in
25 his sack.
. 977
1 THE COURT: Out in the courtroom?
2 MR. MERRETT: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Just give to him when we go
4 back and hand it to the bailiff so it goes
5 into the record.
6 Now, is he going to be part of the team?
7 I mean is he --
8 MR. MERRETT: No, sir, he's observing to
9 simply get a feel for the witnesses.
10 THE COURT: I see. I was going to say I
11 don't know whether to allow him up at the
12 table, but if he's not an active
13 representative then, I don't want him
14 sitting -- remember we've got to keep the way
15 we're going so that my security, you know,
16 there are people that don't like you sides
17 out there and I don't want somebody slipping
18 up to the table and something go boom.
19 MR. MERRETT: I understand.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Then the next thing I
21 got to be sure is that I've got a pristine
22 witness. I don't want somebody putting words
23 in a witness' mouth while there is all this
24 going on. Now, Mr. Pope, you may.
25 MR. POPE: I had a question about it
. 978
1 says, In Germany the something is that
2 Scientologists -- looks like PB. What is
3 that? What does that say? In Germany the --
4 MR. PESENTI: That is the question, the
5 problem.
6 MR. POPE: In Germany, the problem?
7 MR. PESENTI: Yeah, problem.
8 MR. POPE: The problem is that
9 Scientology?
10 MR. PESENTI: I'm sorry, I don't speak
11 very well, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: It's all right.
13 MR. POPE: In Germany the problem in
14 that Scientologist?
15 MR. PESENTI: No, no, just the beginning
16 of that I want to write.
17 MR. POPE: What does the word PB mean?
18 MR. PESENTI: It's a contraction of
19 problem.
20 MR. POPE: Problem, okay.
21 MR. PESENTI: Problem.
22 MR. POPE: Okay, so what you meant to
23 say was in Germany the problem is that
24 Scientologist?
25 MR. PESENTI: No.
. 979
1 MR. POPE: What does this mean?
2 MR. MERRETT: I believe what he's
3 telling you is that's only a portion. That's
4 only the beginning of what he was going to
5 write. That's not a complete statement.
6 MR. POPE: I see. I see.
7 MR. MERRETT: So it's not referring to a
8 specific Scientologist. That refers to a
9 problem.
10 THE COURT: All right. Let's do this.
11 Please, both Mr. Howie and Mr. Merrett,
12 you've got to introduce people. Anything in
13 front of the rail is going to be strictly
14 controlled by me and my bailiffs.
15 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
16 THE COURT: I will still allow the
17 people to talk to their attorneys to come up
18 and everything else. I've got to be able to
19 allow that, but you see, this quite frankly
20 is scary because this is just what my
21 bailiffs and my security people have been
22 worried about, that somebody we don't know, a
23 ringer, suddenly gets up to the table.
24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: Now, I'm going to keep
. 980
1 Ms. Brooks on the stand and I want you all to
2 make it clear to your people ad everybody
3 else, I want both Mr. Howie and Mr. Minton
4 and also Mr. Pope and the attorneys on that
5 side, we're getting down near the end here
6 but let's don't get careless before something
7 happens.
8 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
9 THE COURT: I'm concerned for everybody.
10 I don't want anything to happen on my watch.
11 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
12 THE COURT: Please. Thank you all.
13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, may I mention
14 something off the record?
15 THE COURT: Sure.
16 (Discussion off the record.)
17 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after
18 which the proceedings continued.)
19 THE COURT: All right, let's see about
20 this. Can we go back and pick up where we
21 left off. You were about to do something and
22 I'll allow her to go back down there and we
23 can proceed, but I've got to be -- this has
24 got to be controlled.
25 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
. 981
1 THE COURT: And this has got to be
2 controlled here, too.
3 MR. POPE: We're going to try to keep it
4 under control. I have learned, Your Honor,
5 that there was one other episode that I
6 didn't personally observe, of contact between
7 Ms. Bennett and this witness during the
8 videotape during which Ms. Bennett either
9 passed a note or passed some information
10 orally to Ms. Brooks while she was sitting
11 out here. Now, I personally didn't see it
12 but this young lady apparently did.
13 THE COURT: Let me -- Ms. Brooks, let me
14 ask you something. When we sat down to view
15 that video, the statement that you put on the
16 record or any answers that you might have
17 give to anything Mr. Merrett said, and I
18 remind you, you're under oath here today,
19 were those answers or statements freely and
20 voluntarily made on your part?
21 MS. BROOKS: Yes, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Did anybody instruct you or
23 tell you exactly how to answer or what
24 statements to put on the record?
25 MS. BROOKS: No, sir, not at all.
. 982
1 THE COURT: All right. You ready to
2 pick it back up?
3 MR. MERRETT: Actually, Your Honor, I
4 didn't realize that that second view of those
5 events was on the tape and I have no
6 particular need for the court to see the same
7 thing.
8 THE COURT: You just want to stop there?
9 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
10 THE COURT: You just want to make the
11 point that the Scientologists picket also.
12 MR. MERRETT: Well, and actually the
13 point was that these are the kinds of things
14 that we videotape.
15 THE COURT: I see. Okay.
16 MR. MERRETT: And I don't have any other
17 questions.
18 THE COURT: All right, we'll stop there.
19 All right. Now that is this in evidence?
20 MR. MERRETT: Actually, it wasn't, Your
21 Honor, and you can leave it as a
22 demonstrative aid the court wants it --
23 THE COURT: Evidence.
24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
25 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I would like to
. 983
1 know what Ms. Bennett passed information
2 while she was on the stand?
3 THE COURT: Passed on what?
4 MR. POPE: Ms. Bennett.
5 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Time out. You're
6 absolutely right. You have a right to ask
7 questions within what I opened up and then
8 Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie can ask questions.
9 Sir, you may ask questions.
10 BY MR. POPE:
11 Q Ms. Brooks, while you were sitting out
12 there, didn't Ms. Bennett come up and inform you of
13 something.
14 A She did actually.
15 Q What dis she tell you?
16 A She said those people that are on the video
17 are all Scientologists.
18 Q And then you turned around and testified to
19 that, right?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I think that two
22 episodes like this at one time and I think
23 her testimony ought to be stricken.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, you want to ask
25 any questions?
. 984
1 BY MR. MERRETT:
2 Q Did you already know that those were
3 Scientologists?
4 A Yes.
5 MR. MERRETT: I don't have any other
6 questions.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
8 MR. HOWIE: No questions, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Now, let's go one step at a
10 time. Bear with me just a minute. All
11 right. That tape is in evidence as Exhibit
12 Number Nine for the Defendant LMT and I
13 will -- in light of the fact that the only
14 statements that Ms. Brooks made that somebody
15 might have told her while she was sitting our
16 there to make was that those are
17 Scientologists, I'm not going to strike it
18 because it was -- we already knew that they
19 were going out to show Scientologists and
20 everything else and if those had turned out
21 to be Southern Baptists, I'd be surprised so
22 I think we'll just press on.
23 MR. POPE: Yes, sir.
24 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Now this is in and
. 985
1 you were going to do that and he had that
2 opportunity. The next thing, Mr. Pope, is it
3 issue of the finances.
4 MR. POPE: Yes.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. POPE: Let me make my argument and
7 then depending on how you rule I either get
8 to ask questions or I don't.
9 THE COURT: Yes, sir, I understand.
10 Mr. Pope, sir.
11 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I've given you
12 the case or Purcell versus State, 735 So. 2d.
13 579, Fourth District Court, June 1999.
14 That case says that, and I'll quote from
15 headnote three of the text, the right to
16 expose an improper motive for the testimony
17 of the witness especially as here, a
18 critical State witness, is therefore an
19 essential ingredient in the right to trial
20 by jury.
21 And then under headnote four, bias may
22 be proved by animus or prejudice against the
23 defendant and interest in the outcome of a
24 case and any matter tending to show a
25 motivation indicating that a witness may be
. 986
1 testifying untruthfully.
2 Then this case quotes from Alfred versus
3 State, a 1904 Florida Supreme Court case
4 which says questions touching interest,
5 motives, animus of the status of a witness
6 to the suit are parties are not collateral
7 or immaterial as to such matters, inquiry
8 may be had and it is not within the
9 discretion of the court to exclude it.
10 The hostility of a witness towards a
11 party against whom he is called may be
12 proved by any competent evidence, either by
13 cross-examination of the witness or by the
14 testimony of other witnesses and that it is
15 not necessary that the witness should be
16 first examined as to his hostility before
17 calling other witnesses.
18 Let me give the summary of this law
19 which appears in a Erhardt's Florida
20 Evidence Treatise 2000 Edition, Section
21 608.5 page 457: Interest, motive and animus
22 are never collateral matters of a
23 cross-examination and are always proper.
24 A witness' relation to a party, the
25 personal obligations of a witness to a
. 987
1 party, the friendly or unfriendly feelings
2 of a witness towards a party or the victim,
3 the fact that a witness is being paid by a
4 party to testify, the fact that a
5 prosecution witness is under actual threat
6 and criminal charges, a romantic involvement
7 between the within and the party, the
8 witness's membership in an organization
9 which is relevant to demonstrate bias,
10 prejudice or hostility toward a party,
11 threats, made by a party to the witness, the
12 financial state of a witness in the outcome
13 of the case being litigated and the fact
14 that a witness is employed by party all have
15 been recognized by the Florida Courts as
16 proper questions of cross-examination going
17 to the interest and bias of the witness.
18 Now, I want to know the extent of the
19 financial entanglements between this witness
20 and Mr. Minton and the others and we have
21 gotten into detail on the other witnesses.
22 It is crucial to the question of motive
23 of testimony. The showing of complete
24 financial dependence which is what I think
25 is going to come out of this is at the heart
. 988
1 of motive of her testimony and believe that
2 we are entitled to ask these questions and
3 the questions that I've already asked and
4 receive answers to them. Thank you.
5 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett,
6 sir.
7 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, if this were
8 being argued in vacuo, that argument might
9 not verge on the asinine. The fact is we're
10 not in a vacuum and it is asinine.
11 Ms. Brooks is the president and a
12 representative of a corporation which is a
13 party to the action. Ms. Brooks is herself
14 a former Scientologist, a disaffected former
15 Scientologist and an activist against the
16 abusive practices of Scientology.
17 The information, if Mr. Pope asks each
18 question that is listed in Professor
19 Erhardt's treatise, it still wouldn't get
20 the point of the information that he is
21 pursuing now which is discover information
22 that Scientology pursues in every piece of
23 litigation that it has underway which is
24 nickels and dimes from Bob Minton. What are
25 exact amounts of money that Bob Minton
. 989
1 spends.
2 It is cumulative to the information
3 which is already on the table and I will
4 remind the court that in the event that
5 Mr. Pope is permitted to explore issues of
6 animus and bias, I will then be entitled to
7 explore the entire minute basis for that
8 interest and bias.
9 The fact is, Your Honor, that the issue
10 has been resolved by the evidence that is
11 already in the case and it is purely abusive
12 and harassing to allow Scientology to pursue
13 these details that they have pursued across
14 the country at great expense since it adds
15 nothing to the court's determination.
16 You already are fully aware of this
17 witness' position with respect to
18 Scientology. Thank you.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
20 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I been listening
21 as closely as I can to all of the testimony
22 of Stacy Brooks in this case and I have to
23 make this a observation. When we talk about
24 bias and prejudice we are talking about bias
25 or prejudice against a party or in favor of a
. 990
1 party. That's the whole foundation of the
2 bias and prejudice approach.
3 In all of her testimony -- well, that
4 would mean that we either have to explore
5 for bias or prejudice against the Church of
6 Scientology as one party in this case or as
7 it relates to any payments that may have
8 been received from Mr. Minton her bias and
9 prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton as a result
10 of those payments. And that is what they're
11 trying to get auto.
12 Well, what I find curious is in all the
13 direct examination and all the
14 cross-examination of Stacy Brooks as a
15 witness at this hearing, not once has the
16 petitioner extracted any information from
17 her concerning the activities of Robert
18 Minton as pertains to the five remaining
19 allegations against Mr. Minton in the orders
20 to show cause.
21 This effort to show her bias and
22 prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton is totally
23 irrelevant to any issue in this case even
24 though they had a full shot at her in their
25 cross-examination of her.
. 991
1 This is a situation where her bias or
2 prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton is
3 irrelevant because they haven't established
4 any predicate for asking those kinds of
5 questions. So, in addition to every other
6 argument that Mr. Merrett's made, I don't
7 think that it's relevant that she has any
8 particular bias or prejudice in favor of
9 Mr. Minton.
10 I would also point out that if we were
11 to ask this witness each and every question
12 that Mr. Pope has just posed by reading out
13 of his book there that we would still not
14 get to the issue of how much money was
15 involved.
16 We already know what her position is.
17 We already know her biases and prejudices
18 and the court already has more than
19 sufficient information to determine her
20 credibility on that basis. Thank you.
21 THE COURT: All right. Any rebuttal,
22 Mr. Pope?
23 MR. POPE: Yes, Your Honor. With regard
24 to Mr. Merrett, his comment that it was
25 nickels and dimes, if it's nickels and dimes
. 992
1 let's find out about that and on the question
2 of Mr. Howie's argument there are a couple of
3 instances here where her bias in favor of
4 Mr. Minton is on point.
5 One is she testified that she sent him
6 out to examine the security camera out there
7 and the other is it's pretty clear that the
8 LMT is totally financially dependent on
9 Mr. Minton and she is a salaried employee of
10 it and she is therefore totally, financially
11 dependent on him and I think we're entitled
12 to know the extent of it.
13 MR. MERRETT: Judge, if I can point out
14 one thing?
15 THE COURT: Go ahead.
16 MR. MERRETT: With respect to her
17 testimony, she actually specifically
18 testified that she didn't say anything to
19 Mr. Minton about the camera, that she told me
20 what she wanted done and she did have any
21 communication with him about it so she has
22 not testified about anything that Mr. Minton
23 is charged with doing.
24 MR. HOWIE: If I may, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
. 993
1 MR. HOWIE: In response, if they're
2 already established her total financial
3 dependence upon Mr. Minton to their
4 satisfaction, I hardly see why any further
5 inquiry is necessary.
6 THE COURT: Gentleman, I thank you all
7 very much for these arguments I'm. Going to
8 deny that request at this time. The per bias
9 and prejudice has been clearly put on the
10 record. As far as towards the other side, as
11 far as Minton is concerned and everything
12 else.
13 We're here on show cause on a temporary
14 injunction. These questions would probably
15 be more appropriate for discovery when this
16 is moved for a permanent injunction and I'll
17 deal with it accordingly at that time, but
18 for making a determination today or at the
19 conclusion of these proceedings regarding
20 her feelings and I think they're rather
21 strong feelings are pretty self evident and
22 there has been a lot in the record for which
23 this court can judge her credibility,
24 believability and whether she is or is not
25 telling the truth on certain answers here.
. 994
1 So I'm not going to go any on this that one,
2 but I'm telling you it may not be a dead
3 issue at the discovery stage.
4 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: All right. Now, let's press
6 on.
7 MR. POPE: No further questions, Your
8 Honor.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. MERRETT: No further questions.
11 THE COURT: Ma'am, you may step down.
12 Mr. Howie any question?
13 MR. HOWIE: No.
14 THE COURT: You may step down, please.
15 MR. POPE: Your Honor, while she is
16 stepping down we do want to reserve the right
17 to recall her perhaps.
18 THE COURT: Yeah, she's a party and I'm
19 not excusing her. I just asked her to step
20 down and she's subject to recall. Okay, and
21 let the record reflect I think that we have
22 given copies to the attorneys on both sides
23 of the business card of the additional
24 attorney that appeared here on the defense
25 side, the gentleman from France, and I have a
. 995
1 that card now and I will file his business
2 card in the record and so we can go from
3 there.
4 Now, sir, next witness.
5 MR. MERRETT: Call John Enerson.
6 THE COURT: I'm going to continue him
7 under the oath that I placed him under
8 previously.
9 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, one thing I do
11 want to be sure of, the defendants out there
12 do understand that they have a right to
13 communicate with their attorneys.
14 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: My problem with that
16 incident was for as a person as the witness
17 on the stand and you can't communicate with a
18 witness that is testifying. You dod
19 understand that?
20 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I don't want you to
22 feel that you can't come forward and talk to
23 your attorneys and if he is serving as
24 additional counsel or something else, he has
25 a right to talk to the attorneys.
. 996
1 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. MERRETT:
5 Q Mr. Enerson, can you tell the court what
6 office or position you hold with the Lisa McPherson
7 trust?
8 A Yes. Absolutely none.
9 Q Can you tell the court what employment or
10 financial relationship you have with Robert Minton?
11 A Absolutely none.
12 Q Has Mr. Minton reimbursed you for
13 expenditures you made at my request for costs in this
14 case?
15 A Yes, he has.
16 Q What were those costs?
17 A Those were for exhibits for this hearing.
18 Q Okay. Other than that has he ever given you
19 any money?
20 A Absolutely none.
21 Q Have you ever picketed or protested or made
22 any public or private statement concerning Scientology
23 at the request Mr. Minton or at the request of the
24 Lisa McPherson Trust?
25 A Absolutely not.
. 997
1 Q You do however consider yourself an activist
2 concerning Scientology?
3 A Very much so.
4 Q Now, let me ask you, you saw the and I'll
5 start with the videotape of yourself, Mr. Lerma and I
6 think it was Ida Camburn walking across the south face
7 of the Clearwater Bank Building?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q Down Cleveland Street?
10 A On the Cleveland Street side, yes.
11 Q Can you tell me what you were doing at that
12 time?
13 A I was walking back to the Lisa McPherson
14 Trust from picketing either over near the Coachman
15 Building or near the Ft. Harrison Hotel.
16 Q Were picketing at that time?
17 A No, I didn't consider it be picketing at
18 all. It was merely a transition or in transit.
19 Q Did you believe that what you were doing was
20 in violation of the court's injunction?
21 A No, I didn't.
22 Q Do you believe now that it was in violation
23 of the court's injunction?
24 A No, I don't.
25 Q Is there any way that -- let me ask you
. 998
1 first off, have you looked at the injunction?
2 A Yes, I have.
3 Q And have you looked at the maps that ar
4 attached to the injunction?
5 A Yes, I have.
6 Q Is there any way to get from either the
7 Coachman Building or the area across the street from
8 the Ft. Harrison Hotel back to the Lisa McPherson
9 Trust without passing through an area which is on the
10 map and not colored in orange?
11 A Yes, if I was able to fly.
12 Q Other than that is there?
13 A No.
14 Q By automobile or on foot?
15 A Not by my current abilities, no.
16 Q So even if you walked ten blocks west or
17 east rather you would still have to loop around and
18 come back on the map in an unorange zone?
19 A I would think so.
20 Q Okay. Do you recall the testimony in the
21 videotape about yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Lerma,
22 Ms. Gogolla and it may have been me, walking along
23 Ft. Harrison Avenue adjacent to the Coachman Building
24 parking lot?
25 A Yes, I recall that.
. 999
1 Q Do you recall crossing the driveway?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q Were you picketing in the driveway?
4 A No, I was not picketing.
5 Q What were you doing?
6 A I was crossing the driveway actually from
7 one orange zone to another. Normally when I picket or
8 what I consider picketing, we would walk back and
9 forth. At no time have we ever done that in those
10 demarcated areas that are not orange zones.
11 Q Let me ask you about that. The first part
12 of that videotape and the first part of the testimony
13 dealt with you, Mr. Minton Mr. Lerma, and Ms. Gogolla
14 on the north side of that of -- no, the south side of
15 that parking lot, that sidewalk along Park Street?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Were you picketing there?
18 A Yes, I was.
19 Q Were you and your companions occupying
20 essentially the same area?
21 A Yes, we were in that area for quite a while.
22 Q When you say quite a while, tell the judge
23 what you mean?
24 A I would think we were probably there
25 half-an-hour to an hour.
. 1000
1 Q And were you moving back and forth within
2 that single stretch of sidewalk?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q Is that what you consider to be picketing?
5 A That's what I consider to be picketing,
6 walking in a prescribed area or normally when I
7 picketed through all the thousands of miles of
8 videotape that Scientology has of me picketing and
9 from hundreds of cameras they have obviously seen me
10 walking back and forth, walking back and forth.
11 Q In front of Ft. Harrison?
12 A Absolutely.
13 Q Prior to the injunction?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q Now, as you cross the driveway, did you stop
16 in the driveway?
17 A Nope.
18 Q Did you ever prior to returning to the Lisa
19 McPherson Trust did you ever turn and cross back over
20 the driveway?
21 A I don't believe I did, no.
22 Q Do you recall having made any kind of a loop
23 that included the driveway?
24 A No, I did not.
25 Q Did you believe yourself to be violating the
. 1001
1 injunction as you crossed the driveway?
2 A No, I did not believe I was violating the
3 injunction.
4 Q Do you now believe that that was violating
5 the injunction?
6 A I don't believe that I did or will, no. I
7 have to be able to walk from one area to another.
8 Q Let me ask you again in order to get from
9 the -- if this is the parking lot of the Coachman
10 Building?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And let's see, this is north?
13 A That would be correct.
14 Q And these areas where I've drawn the
15 scribbles, if that's the ten feet on either side of
16 the driveway, is that a way to get from this X to this
17 X without being on the map in a place that is not
18 colored orange?
19 A No.
20 Q Okay.
21 A No, there is no way.
22 Q In fact if you cross the street to the other
23 side of Ft. Harrison Avenue you're on that map and out
24 of an orange zone with picket signs --
25 A I believe the west sidewalk of Ft. Harrison
. 1002
1 Avenue is not marked orange.
2 Q Okay. Was your only purpose in going and
3 being in the driveway at all transitting from one
4 side, from one orange zone to another?
5 A That's the only thing I've ever done
6 crossing any of those zones.
7 Q Okay. Now, let me ask you about this
8 sidewalk along the south side of Ft. Harrison where
9 your picket began. Is the driveway or does the
10 driveway, the back driveway into this parking lot,
11 does it open through this sidewalk?
12 A I believe -- you know, the best of my
13 recollection this is -- a does open out from the
14 alleyway. I think the driveway actually from the
15 parking lot itself and part of the alleyway there seem
16 to be one thing there, if I recall right.
17 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. Does the
18 sidewalk come up to the edge of the alleyway?
19 A I believe it does, yes.
20 Q Okay. Is there then a driveway that opens
21 off the alley in the back of the parking lot?
22 A Yes, there is.
23 Q Did you all ever at any time during the
24 times that have been testified to, cross into this
25 driveway?
. 1003
1 A No.
2 Q Did you remain on this sidewalk?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q Okay. What about your companion?
5 A I believe everyone that I was with was on
6 that sidewalk there at all times.
7 Q Okay. Now, I want to ask you if you have
8 had occasion particularly to examine -- this is the
9 Clearwater Bank Building?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And this is north here and this would be
12 Cleveland Street. Have you had occasion to make a
13 particular examination of the west side of the
14 Clearwater Bank Building from the Lisa McPherson Trust
15 down to Cleveland Street?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q And how did you do that?
18 A At your request, actually.
19 Q Now, is there a building or buildings
20 between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Clearwater
21 Bank Building on the Ft. Harrison side on the west
22 side?
23 A Yes, there is. It's now referred to here at
24 the rat bait building.
25 Q Okay. What I want you to do for the court
. 1004
1 is describe and we'll go in order beginning at the
2 north end and moving south, describe what is on the
3 side of the Clearwater Bank Building, okay.
4 Let's take the first stretch, the first
5 distance area. Can you tell the judge what that wall
6 looks like, what's there?
7 A It is actually a blank stucco wall or
8 concrete wall.
9 Q Okay.
10 A It's a featureless wall.
11 Q About how long is that?
12 A I'm going to estimate -- I haven't measured
13 it, but I would estimate 10, 12 feet.
14 THE COURT: You want me to take judicial
15 notice of that?
16 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: I mean, I can't tell you how
18 many years and how many times I've gone past
19 that and way back when my law office was up
20 in the West Coast Hotel building. In fact it
21 was my firm that built that or converted that
22 into law offices and I even remember when the
23 dirty theatre was across the street from the
24 wall you're talking about. I never went
25 there. I just remember the fight over
. 1005
1 closing that down, long before Scientology
2 ever came to town they closed them down, so
3 let's just press on. Right, Mr. Pope?
4 MR. POPE: You're dead right, Your
5 Honor.
6 MR. ENERSON: I guess His Honor knows
7 the building better than I do.
8 THE COURT: Yeah, I know all that area.
9 I can remember a long time ago when there was
10 a fire up there in the second story of that
11 building and the Scientologists remember that
12 too, so let's just press on.
13 BY MR. MERRETT:
14 Q Eventually, did you come to a set of windows
15 that are ten feet off the ground.
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q And then there is a set of windows --
18 A Let me correct that. I would estimate they
19 are probably about eight feet off the ground.
20 Q Then as you come down to the corner there is
21 a set of windows that is more or less eye level?
22 A Yeah, I estimate those approximately five
23 feet from the pavement level.
24 Q Can you see -- is there any particular
25 feature about those windows that affects the ability
. 1006
1 to see in or out of those windows?
2 A As near as I can tell from the outside,
3 those windows are tinted and there are blinds pulled.
4 Just walking past and looking they seem to be that
5 way.
6 Q Have you ever seen those windows with the
7 blinds up?
8 A I don't recall that I ever have.
9 Q Have you ever in all the times that you've
10 been back and forth around the Clearwater Bank
11 Building been able to see into the building and see
12 people in there?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. You were present on the night of
15 January 7 when Mr. Minton had this encounter with
16 Officer Correa and Harbert, correct?
17 A That is absolutely correct.
18 Q If this is Watterson Avenue and this is
19 Cleveland, first off I want you to tell the court
20 whether or not there was a bus here?
21 A Yes, there was. As a matter of fact there
22 were two or three buses.
23 Q Okay. Were any of the buses moving during
24 the time of the encounter?
25 A Not in the least.
. 1007
1 Q Okay. Did anybody get on or off the buses
2 during the time that Mr. Minton was having his
3 encounter with the police officers?
4 A I don't recall seeing anybody. My attention
5 was focused on the encounter but what was normally my
6 observation is that when Scientologists come out of
7 their mess hall there there is a good number of them
8 filing into the buses and I would have noticed that, I
9 would think.
10 Q Okay. Did you notice that?
11 A No, I didn't.
12 Q Let me ask you this. Did you see anybody
13 out there other than Mr. Avila, Mr. Minton, the police
14 and the other members of your party?
15 A Specifically in the street?
16 Q Anywhere?
17 A On the sidewalk, yes, on the west sidewalk.
18 Q Okay. Over here?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Now, during the time that Mr. Minton
21 had his encounter with the police, was there any
22 vehicular traffic moving on Watterson Street?
23 A None whatsoever.
24 Q Okay. Did you, yourself, step out into the
25 street at one point?
. 1008
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Did you intervene in Mr. Minton's
3 confrontation with the police?
4 A Yes, I felt that -- I did. I felt that I
5 had to.
6 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. Other than
7 Mr. Avila who was somewhere in the area with this
8 video camera, did you see any Scientologists within
9 ten feet of Mr. Minton?
10 A You know, I want to say that there was
11 another OSA videographer or camera guy there
12 somewhere. Now, whether, you know, I think there were
13 two.
14 Q Uh-huh.
15 A And his proximity, if it was closer than ten
16 feet, I'm not sure.
17 Q Was he moving around?
18 A Yeah, they were moving around.
19 Q Okay. Was there any traffic, foot or
20 vehicular blocked by this confrontation between
21 Mr. Minton and the police?
22 A No, there was no traffic moving along the
23 street at all. Normally when the buses are lined up
24 there on the west sidewalk they will pull in off of
25 Cleveland and then my observation has been that they
. 1009
1 go out single file from the lead bus that way coming
2 from the west and turning in, so we were --
3 Q Okay. Let me stop you right there. Do they
4 generally exit from the front door or the rear door of
5 the bus?
6 A I've seen both.
7 Q Uh-huh. And they proceed in what manner?
8 A Come off of the west sidewalk and walk
9 between the buses --
10 Q Hang on a second; getting off the bus?
11 A Getting off of the bus?
12 Q Right.
13 A They exit the bus on the right side of the
14 bus, that door through there, walk around the bus onto
15 the west sidewalk.
16 Q Okay. In single file?
17 A You know, generally I've seem it that way.
18 Yeah, single file.
19 Q All right. And these buses have two doors?
20 A I can't speak for all of the buses, but I've
21 noticed a number of them do have a front and a center
22 or rear door.
23 MR. MERRETT: Okay. If I can have just
24 a second, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: You may.
. 1010
1 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
2 place.)
3 BY MR. MERRETT:
4 Q Let me ask you if as of January 7 if there
5 was a general consensus regarding the status, among
6 activists was there a general consensus regarding this
7 status of these off-duty police officers and the
8 Church of Scientology?
9 A Yes, there was. I came to a conclusion
10 myself, but, yeah. but our consensus was that they
11 were working for Scientology.
12 Q That they were agents of Scientology?
13 A Absolutely.
14 Q And covered by the injunction?
15 A Yes. I even asked one of the officers,
16 spoke with him.
17 MR. MERRETT: Can I have just a second,
18 Your Honor?
19 THE COURT: You can have it. Take your
20 time.
21 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
22 place.)
23 BY MR. MERRETT:
24 Q Mr. Enerson, has there been a time since the
25 injunction was entered and you became aware of it that
. 1011
1 you picketed in what you believed to be an area you
2 were not allowed to picket?
3 A No.
4 Q Have you at any time knowingly or
5 deliberately violated the court's order?
6 A No. I've tried very hard to stay within the
7 court's order.
8 Q Let me ask you this. Talking about staying
9 within the court's order, are you the inventor of the
10 Threep?
11 A Yes, I am.
12 Q Can you tell the court by profession what
13 you do?
14 THE COURT: Hold on just a minute.
15 Let's get that in here. I'm sorry, it's in
16 my chambers.
17 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
18 place.)
19 Okay. Just sit it down there on the
20 court reporter's table for now.
21 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I need to jump back
22 to another area that I omitted.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Let the record so
24 reflect that you're moving back to something
25 else. Go ahead.
. 1012
1 BY MR. MERRETT:
2 Q I'm talking about the might of January 7
3 again. Were you part of the party that included
4 Mr. Minton that was originally coming south on the
5 east sidewalk on Watterson?
6 A Yes, I was.
7 THE COURT: What the date?
8 MR. MERRETT: January 7.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir.
10 BY MR. MERRETT:
11 Q Okay, and were you there when Mr. Minton
12 veered out into the road.
13 A Yes, I was.
14 Q Let me ask you if you had past those officer
15 before Mr. Minton did earlier that evening?
16 A Yes, I had.
17 Q Had the officers made some comments to you?
18 A Both officers made some comments, yeah.
19 That's originally why I went back the other way and
20 left that area.
21 Q Did you go back and tell Mr. Minton what had
22 happened and --
23 A Right, I saw Mr. Minton walking south on the
24 same sidewalk towards us and I mentioned to him what
25 had happened. I was actually on my way back out of
. 1013
1 that area.
2 Q What is it that happened?
3 A Ms. Bezazian and I and Mr. Lerma were down
4 in that area and Officers Harbert and Correa were
5 standing by the alleyway there and as we went down
6 with our megaphones and picket signs and started to
7 picket that evening I passed by the officers and I
8 don't recall which one I heard loud enough for one of
9 them to say something to the effect of --
10 MR. POPE: Objection. I think we're
11 getting into a hearsay area.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett?
13 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, it goes to
14 state of mind, as to Mr. Minton's state of
15 mind and to the bias and prejudice of Officer
16 Harbert.
17 MR. POPE: Your Honor, Mister --
18 THE COURT: I think that has to come
19 through Mr. Minton. Now, as far as his bias
20 or prejudice or anything -- scratch that --
21 affected this witness, then okay. But not
22 for him to try to establish bias or prejudice
23 of Mr. Minton.
24 MR. MERRETT: No, Your Honor, I'm trying
25 to establish bias and prejudice of Officer
. 1014
1 Harbert.
2 THE COURT: Okay, but what effect, what
3 did he do? What happened here? Well --
4 MR. MERRETT: I can just leave this for
5 Mr. Howie.
6 THE COURT: Press on. Press on.
7 MR. MERRETT: That's probably the
8 easiest way.
9 THE COURT: That's what I was trying to
10 get to.
11 MR. MERRETT: May I confer just a moment
12 with Mr. Howie?
13 THE COURT: Yeah.
14 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
15 place.)
16 I'd like to go back and talk about this
17 police incident.
18 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
19 THE COURT: All right. You,
20 Mr. Enerson, okay, you made a comment earlier
21 that you felt that the Clearwater Police
22 Department were agents of the Church of
23 Scientology; did you not say that?
24 MR. ENERSON: Yes, I did, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right. Why did you feel
. 1015
1 that way?
2 MR. ENERSON: Let me clarify, I don't
3 fell that the whole entire police department
4 was.
5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Okay. Clarify.
6 MR. ENERSON: Those two officers working
7 out there on Watterson that night were acting
8 as agents of or on behalf of Scientology at
9 that time.
10 THE COURT: Why do you say that?
11 MR. ENERSON: They were, to the best of
12 my knowledge I asked one of the officers if
13 he was currently working for them and he said
14 yes. I mean originally he told me, you know,
15 this is the Clearwater Police Department
16 badge but when I pressed the issue of who was
17 he working for right then he said none of you
18 damn business.
19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, that's hearsay
20 and I move to strike it.
21 MR. MERRETT: Well, actually the court's
22 question if I may remind it --
23 THE COURT: Yeah.
24 MR. MERRETT: Why did Mr. Enerson think
25 they were agents of Scientology?
. 1016
1 THE COURT: Yeah, and I think that --
2 MR. MERRETT: Additionally, Your Honor,
3 since the witness is obviously not trying to
4 prove that it was none of his damn business.
5 THE COURT: I understand. Press on, but
6 Mr. Enerson, other than you saying are
7 you -- what did you say, are you paid by the
8 Scientologists?
9 MR. ENERSON: I simple asked who he was
10 working for.
11 THE COURT: Working for, okay. And that
12 was all that happened that led you to believe
13 that they were agents for the Scientologists?
14 MR. ENERSON: No, Your Honor. I was
15 verbally harassed by the two officers there.
16 THE COURT: And you were in the orange
17 zone?
18 MR. ENERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Had you been harassed by any
20 other Clearwater Police Department officer?
21 MR. ENERSON: Not at all.
22 THE COURT: And they've been out there
23 for over a year now in that area that I know
24 of, because last year under the prior
25 injunction these gentlemen gave me authority
. 1017
1 to go and just observe what was going on out
2 there.
3 MR. ENERSON: That was the first time.
4 THE COURT: There were Clearwater police
5 officers were there.
6 MR. ENERSON: That's the first time I've
7 ever been harassed.
8 THE COURT: Has it happened subsequent?
9 MR. ENERSON: No.
10 THE COURT: What were the names of these
11 officers again?
12 MR. ENERSON: Officers Harbert and
13 Correa.
14 THE COURT: And what, Correa?
15 MR. ENERSON: I don't know the spelling.
16 THE COURT: Just those two?
17 MR. ENERSON: Just those two.
18 THE COURT: One wasn't a female, was it?
19 MR. ENERSON: No, they are both male.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. ENERSON: Officer Harbert has
22 already right testified.
23 THE COURT: No, no, I understand that.
24 All right. And that was all that led you to
25 believe that they were agents?
. 1018
1 MR. ENERSON: Well, the verbal
2 harassment and then when I turned and asked
3 them, you know, who are you working for right
4 now, I said are you here on behalf of
5 Scientology or are you here on behalf of the
6 Clearwater Police Department and I was told
7 it wasn't any of my business.
8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope.
9 Certainly you, Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie,
10 I'll give you a chance to ask questions in
11 light of the questions I asked, okay.
12 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir.
13 THE COURT: When you get up here so
14 don't forget that, you all. Okay. Go ahead.
15 BY MR. MERRETT:
16 Q Let me ask this apropos to the subject
17 matter raised by the court. Have you seen what's
18 known as the police video?
19 A Yes, I have.
20 Q And you are aware that these officers have
21 been paid several thousand dollars by Scientology over
22 the previous year to act as security guards for
23 Scientology?
24 A I wasn't aware of those two particular
25 officers in any manner, just that some Clearwater
. 1019
1 police have worked for Scientology.
2 Q And were you aware that they were there
3 off-duty acting as security guards?
4 A That was my understanding, yes.
5 Q And is that the basis on which you concluded
6 that they were agents of Scientology?
7 A Partially, yes.
8 Q Okay. Was it in any --
9 THE COURT: Wait a minute. You say
10 partially yes. In light of your answer to
11 him and in light of your answer to me, where
12 is the other part of the partially?
13 MR. ENERSON: My questions to the
14 officers there on the street that night, Your
15 Honor, when I asked who they were working for
16 and they refused to answer me and said it was
17 none of your business and the way I was
18 treated I assume from that also.
19 I had seen the police video, I had seen
20 that they were paid off duty and then when I
21 was there that night and the verbal
22 harassment and when I inquired who they were
23 working for, the reaction I got led me to
24 believe that they were there on behalf of
25 Scientology.
. 1020
1 THE COURT: When you said police video,
2 what are you talking about, police video?
3 MR. ENERSON: It's a video that was
4 produced by the Lisa McPherson Trust, I
5 guess, that shows some of the incidents with
6 Clearwater Police Department over the past
7 year or so showing a bias toward the Lisa
8 McPherson Trust in particular.
9 I previously had an opportunity to see
10 that video. I would think -- I don't know
11 how long.
12 THE COURT: There is a video that shows
13 police biased towards the Lisa McPherson
14 Trust?
15 MR. ENERSON: Yes, there is.
16 THE COURT: And you tell me that you
17 don't work for or have anything to do with
18 the Lisa McPherson Trust; is that right?
19 MR. ENERSON: That's correct.
20 THE COURT: Yet, you were shown this
21 video?
22 MR. ENERSON: Many people have seen it.
23 It's actually on the internet right now.
24 THE COURT: It's on the internet?
25 MR. ENERSON: Yes, it is.
. 1021
1 THE COURT: What's the site?
2 MR. ENERSON: I believe it's on the Lisa
3 McPherson Trust site.
4 THE COURT: That's that site?
5 MR. ENERSON: lisatrust.freewinds.cx, I
6 believe?
7 THE COURT: Lisatrust.Net?
8 MR. ENERSON: I believe so.
9 THE COURT: What do you do, click on
10 police brutality photo or something?
11 MR. ENERSON: I think it's under LMT
12 Media or there is a search engine there that
13 I think you can search for it.
14 MR. MERRETT: Judge, I've got a copy of
15 the video if the court would like to see it.
16 I believe I do, don't I?
17 I have a copy if the court wants to
18 watch it. It's about 20 minutes long.
19 THE COURT: Well, it's certainly your
20 case, but if you're saying -- well, I won't
21 say any more, but --
22 MR. MERRETT: Yes, sir. If I can
23 continue?
24 THE COURT: Continue with this witness.
25
. 1022
1 BY MR. MERRETT:
2 Q Yes, sir. Going back to where we were, you
3 are the inventor of the Threep?
4 A Yes, I am.
5 Q And can you tell the court first off what
6 the purpose of the device is?
7 A Well, the purpose of it was, you know, we
8 were discussing the injunction among several people.
9 I don't recall who, but the comment came up and there
10 had been a discussion about what are we supposed to
11 do, walk around the streets with a ten foot pole
12 trying to stay clear of the Scientologists in order to
13 maintain the court ordered distance and that's when
14 the idea I guess was born. You know, well, maybe we
15 should have a ten foot pole. Might be the best way I
16 recall during picketing in I think it was around
17 December 2 or December 3 I recall some police officer
18 somewhere saying something about a distance we had to
19 stay from a driveway or something, but my observation
20 based on my judgment it was I thought less than ten
21 feet.
22 Q Let me ask you if can describe for the court
23 the features of the Threep? First off, what does the
24 ball mark?
25 A The outside end of the ball is ten feet,
. 1023
1 measures ten feet from the outside end of that ball to
2 the flashing light.
3 Q To the face --
4 A Face of the flashing light, yeah.
5 Q Okay. And is it intended to be carried like
6 this is the right hand so that the face of the light
7 is ahead of the body?
8 A You can carry it any way you like, but the
9 idea is that the face of that light to the end of the
10 ball is ten feet.
11 Q Okay. And I'm assuming that you would not
12 represent that every feature of the Threep despite its
13 obviously utility is deadly serious?
14 A I think -- well, look at it. I think it
15 probably looks more like Dr. Seuss than anything else.
16 Q What is the -- I mean, other than the ten
17 feet, what were your other goals in designing it other
18 than marking out ten feet?
19 A Again, it's humorous. I thought it was
20 rather humorous and I guess to point out that ten feet
21 is ten feet. It's a little bit more than I assume it
22 to be sometimes, I guess.
23 Q Let me ask you this. Is there any
24 particular reason other than the pleasure or humor
25 that caused you to make it look funny?
. 1024
1 A Well, yeah, my concern was when I did this
2 thing I didn't want to have some Scientologist or OSA
3 or anything suddenly use this in a video or something
4 and say, look, they're carrying a weapon, so, you
5 know, or had a weapon so I did everything I could
6 possibly do by making that thing literally scream not
7 a weapon.
8 Q And as far as the name "Threep", I think
9 it's been established that stands for what?
10 A It was originally called the Penick Picket
11 Pole. That was three Ps and the then when we spell
12 three p it became Threep.
13 Q Who came up with that name?
14 A I did.
15 Q And was that any kind of a gallop or dig at
16 the court?
17 A Absolutely not. It was -- I recall from
18 reading the previous court testimony or transcripts
19 and that or I heard it on the internet as well
20 something called Penick's Picket Chicken I guess what
21 it was referred to or --
22 THE COURT: That was last year.
23 MR. ENERSON: Last year.
24 THE COURT: So this year we've got the
25 Penick Picket Pole. Let's see what we get
. 1025
1 next year.
2 MR. ENERSON: But I never intended that
3 as a mockery or any, you know, thing like
4 that. In fact I was relieved that we
5 actually had or the judge had given us that
6 ten foot space bilaterally in the injunction
7 because I was, you know, present in some of
8 those pickets this last summer where we had a
9 great number of Scientologists gathered
10 around us, closing in on us and shoving and
11 pushing and that sort of thing so that ten
12 foot was, you know, if anything else it was
13 probably more the Threep represents gratitude
14 more than mocking the court.
15 THE COURT: Let me -- well, you said
16 something interesting there. You did. Did I
17 understand you to say that you were actually
18 glad that the court had put some sort of
19 distance between you and the other side?
20 MR. ENERSON: Yeah, Your Honor, I was.
21 THE COURT: In other words you felt
22 better with some sort of space there rather
23 than me just saying no injunction; everybody
24 go have a good time?
25 MR. ENERSON: I felt better in light of
. 1026
1 some of the -- I had previously like I said
2 last summer been involved in some pickets
3 there where I had Scientologists directly
4 screaming in my face, circling around me.
5 I also testified here I guess in the
6 original injunction hearing on the attack or
7 the altercation between Mr. Minton and
8 another fellow there and having that space,
9 actually I was, you know, thought that that
10 helps us too to preserve our First Amendment
11 rights to picket and protest and protects
12 us.
13 THE COURT: So would be able to do an
14 about face with a sign without not striking
15 someone who is like I said playing Picket
16 Chicken right up behind you with a video
17 camera?
18 MR. ENERSON: That's correct.
19 THE COURT: And not have to worry about
20 getting knocked unconscious by a video camera
21 if you did 180 or so?
22 MR. ENERSON: Right. I've always tried
23 to be careful when we're picketing. I've
24 tried to not have those kind of physical
25 contacts, but certainly you can't avoid that
. 1027
1 if somebody is -- you have three or four
2 Scientologists circling around you staring in
3 your face, it's awfully difficult not to come
4 into physical contact.
5 THE COURT: Okay. And you don't feel
6 that your constitutional rights or First
7 Amendment rights were stifled by having that
8 ten foot space?
9 MR. ENERSON: No, not at all.
10 THE COURT: Are you aware that the
11 injunction is being appealed?
12 MR. ENERSON: I had heard something to
13 that effect. I don't know the details of it.
14 THE COURT: Okay, but you're comfortable
15 with the space?
16 MR. ENERSON: So far I am, yes.
17 Personally, that's my personal position.
18 THE COURT: If you were the judge, would
19 you increase that space or decrease it? Are
20 you satisfied with ten feet?
21 MR. ENERSON: I'm satisfied with then
22 feet. I would hate to have to design another
23 Threep at this point, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: I understand that. Of
25 course, you know, that could be job security.
. 1028
1 MR. ENERSON: I didn't get paid for
2 those, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. There is a potential
4 market there.
5 MR. ENERSON: I would like to have an
6 autographed model at some point.
7 THE COURT: Move on.
8 MR. MERRETT: I have nothing further,
9 Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you may, sir.
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. HOWIE:
13 Q Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Enerson, I
14 wanted to ask you some questions concerning the
15 incident on the evening of January 7. You've seen the
16 videotape in that case, haven't you?
17 A Yes, I have.
18 Q And it fairly and accurately depicts the
19 events that occurred between my client, Mr. Minton,
20 and the two police officers, correct?
21 A Yes, it essentially depicts what occurred
22 there.
23 Q Now, I want to draw your attention to events
24 that occurred that same evening just prior to what we
25 see to the videotape. You indicated in your testimony
. 1029
1 that you had a previous contact with these two police
2 officers on Watterson, correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And in fact was it on the east side sidewalk
5 of Watterson?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And did you know that to be an orange zone?
8 A Yes. I understood that entire sidewalk down
9 to close to the parking garage to be an orange zone.
10 Q Now, you saw where the two police officers
11 were standing on the videotape. Is that where the two
12 police officers were standing when you had your
13 contact with them before the videotape started?
14 A The two officers were originally standing by
15 the alleyway. There is an alleyway right behind that
16 building on that side of the street and they normally
17 stand that but they started out there and moved closer
18 down to where I was. I had moved south of them and
19 they moved down closer to where Ms. Bezazian and
20 Mr. Lerma and I were.
21 Q All right. Now, in the entire time prior to
22 this videotape, the entire time you remained on the
23 east side sidewalk of Watterson, correct?
24 A Oh, yes.
25 Q You didn't step out into the center of
. 1030
1 Watterson or anything like that?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q And were you attempting to obey the
4 injunction at that time?
5 A Yes, I was.
6 Q All right. Now, your contact -- what were
7 you actually doing there? What was your purpose of
8 being there at that particular time?
9 A I was picketing there. I was holding my
10 picket sign and speaking through a megaphone that I
11 had with me.
12 Q All right. And what initiated this contact
13 between you and the two police officers?
14 A As I passed by in front of them they
15 actually had their backs up to the building standing
16 on the sidewalk so I had to go between the curb and
17 the police officers there to go back and forth. As I
18 picket I go back and forth in the prescribed area that
19 I choose within an orange zone.
20 Q And how was it that you actually came into
21 communication?
22 A Passing by them they -- one of the officers
23 that I later learned to be Harbert or Correa are the
24 two names, started making comments to me.
25 Q All right. And did you respond to those
. 1031
1 comments?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q Did you say anything to these officers at
4 all at that time?
5 A At that time, no.
6 Q Now, afterwards did you have contact with my
7 clint, Robert Minton, that evening?
8 A Yes, I became concerned about the attitude
9 of the officers there and I walked north on Watterson
10 on the sidewalk and met Mr. Minton coming south on the
11 sidewalk.
12 Q And Mr. Minton was on the east side sidewalk
13 of Watterson?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And what did you tell Mr. Minton about your
16 run-in?
17 A I told him that I was afraid that these
18 officers down here were being harassing and that and I
19 thought we should get a video camera or something, you
20 know, that they were harassing us picketing down there
21 is basically what I said to him.
22 Q Okay. What did you see Mr. Minton do
23 immediately after you told him this?
24 A Mr. Minton started walking, he went walking
25 south on that sidewalk.
. 1032
1 Q Now, you said you saw the videotape and in
2 the videotape is it correct that when the scene opens
3 Mr. Minton is in fact on the east side sidewalk
4 walking south?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q To the best your knowledge and belief based
7 on your personal recollection and based on the
8 videotape, does that videotape show Mr. Minton
9 immediately after you spoke to him?
10 A Yes, that was immediately after.
11 Q And did you see, did you observe, yourself,
12 Mr. Minton stepping off the sidewalk to go around the
13 police officer?
14 A Yeah, I got within I would say 10, 15 feet
15 rather than, you know, violate the injunction if they
16 were agents or working on behalf of Scientology as the
17 injunction said I would have to go around them to
18 maintain a ten foot distance. Mr. Minton went into
19 the street at that point.
20 Q As the inventor of the Threep you're
21 familiar with what ten feet is?
22 A Absolutely.
23 Q And did Mr. Minton appear to attempt to stay
24 ten feet away from these officers?
25 A Yeah, I believe he did.
. 1033
1 Q Okay. And the video shows Mr. Minton
2 continuing to go in a southerly direction but in a
3 semicircle around the police officers and the video
4 shows you going up to Mr. Minton at that point when
5 the police officers confronted him. What was your
6 purpose of coming up at that point?
7 A One of the officers stepped up to, you know,
8 almost touching noses with Mr. Minton and was making,
9 you know, saying things to him that led me to believe
10 that there was a serious confrontation.
11 This officer was very provocative to
12 Mr. Minton and I intervened trying to separate the
13 two, put some distance in there, so I tried to put my
14 elbow in there but I thought it was getting way out of
15 hand. Both the officers were becoming very abusive,
16 as well.
17 Q Now, afterwards, after this verbal
18 confrontation that's shown on videotape between
19 Mr. Minton and the two police officers, what did you
20 observe Mr. Minton do?
21 A He moved away from the police officers and
22 stepped up on the sidewalk just to the south of them.
23 Q And when you say the sidewalk, you mean the
24 sidewalk on the east sidewalk --
25 A The east sidewalk in the orange zone, yes.
. 1034
1 Q And, again, just to clarify, you said that
2 when he stepped back on the sidewalk he continued to
3 be in the orange zone?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q Now, I want to ask you about some of the
6 provisions of the injunction itself. You are
7 personally familiar with the injunction?
8 A I've read it and looked at it, yes.
9 Q Okay. Now, at any time during this entire
10 incident that you have reported, did Mr. Minton come
11 within ten feet of any person you knew to be a member
12 of the Church of Scientology?
13 A Actually a Scientologist came closer than
14 ten feet with Mr. Minton. He didn't proceed toward
15 within but one did.
16 Q Can you identify that person by name?
17 A Yes, Antonio Avila.
18 THE COURT: Now, stop right there just a
19 minute please.
20 (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took
21 place.)
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 BY MR. HOWIE:
24 Q Thank you. You say Antonio Avila. Were you
25 present when Mr. Avila testified in court?
. 1035
1 A Yes, I was.
2 Q That's the Antonio Avila that you were
3 referring to?
4 A The gentleman in the back row over here.
5 Q During this entire incident did Mr. Avila
6 have a video camera in his hand?
7 A Yes, he did.
8 Q And at what point in this incident did
9 Mr. Avila get within ten feet of Mr. Minton?
10 A I think it was he began -- he got a lot
11 closer when the police officers closed up tight with
12 Mr. Minton and got directly in his face and he
13 approached very close with the video camera. He got
14 in I would eye guess six feet, four to six feet.
15 Q Okay. How long did that last? How long was
16 Mr. Avila within four to six feet of Mr. Minton?
17 A Not more than a minute or two.
18 Q All right. Is it your testimony that
19 Mr. Avila approach Mr. Minton, not that Mr. Minton
20 approached Mr. Avila?
21 A That's correct, yes.
22 Q Now, during the period of time that
23 Mr. Minton was temporarily out on Watterson Street
24 before resuming on the east sidewalk of the street,
25 did you see Mr. Minton block the path either of any
. 1036
1 member of the of Church of Scientology or any vehicle
2 that appeared to block the Church of Scientology?
3 A No, there was no traffic on the street at
4 that time and there are no -- at that point everyone
5 on the west side of the street basically stayed over
6 there on the west side of the street.
7 Q All right. Did you see Mr. Minton get close
8 enough to any doors of any kind, whether it was a door
9 to a building or a door to a bus in such a way as to
10 block that entrance?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you see Mr. Minton harass or commit any
13 act of violence against any member of the Church of
14 Scientology that evening?
15 A None whatsoever.
16 Q To the best of your recollection did
17 Mr. Minton have a picket sign in his hand during this
18 incident you've described?
19 A I believe Mr. Minton had one of the Xenu
20 megaphones in his hand at that time. I don't recall a
21 picket sign. I believe he had at that time a
22 megaphone.
23 Q All right. Do you recall him using that
24 megaphone at any time when he was not in the orange
25 zone on the sidewalk?
. 1037
1 A I think, no, I don't recall that he used
2 that megaphone. You know, I recall him using it on
3 the sidewalk, but I don't think he used it in the
4 street.
5 I think by the time he went in the street it
6 was down by his side and he was actually pointing his
7 finger and talking to the police officers at that
8 point.
9 Q All right. And from your own recollection,
10 what is your best estimate of the amount of time that
11 Mr. Minton was actually off the curb in Watterson
12 Street from the time he stepped off to avoid the
13 police officers until the time he resumed the
14 sidewalk?
15 A You could check the time stamp or something
16 on the video, but I wouldn't estimate it was more than
17 two to three minutes, my guess.
18 Q Now, returning to your overhearing the
19 comments by the police officers, you have testified
20 that it caused you enough concern to go back to
21 Mr. Minton and report to him what occurred between you
22 and the police officers, correct?
23 A Yes, I felt that we were from -- my feeling
24 was from the comments that I was hearing that we
25 might, you know, eminent threats of arrest.
. 1038
1 Q What was said to you that caused you to
2 believe that you were in eminent threat of arrest?
3 MR. POPE: Objection. Hearsay.
4 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, it's a matter of
5 operative statement and it's a matter of
6 verbal conduct. It is not submitted to prove
7 the truth of the matter asserted under
8 90.801. It is meant to show what caused this
9 man to act the way he did. It was a matter
10 of imperative or interrogatory.
11 THE COURT: But he is going to get a
12 chance to address if he wants to say it
13 himself.
14 MR. HOWIE: I would also point out that
15 they're nonassertive conducts. That is as
16 the court is well aware, hearsay is a
17 statement, an assertion meant to contain a
18 fact or a truth. This is non-assertive
19 conduct by the police officers that we're
20 trying to elicit and it's relevant to show
21 why Mr. Enerson was concerned.
22 THE COURT: You may answer.
23 BY MR. HOWIE:
24 Q Go ahead and answer. What were the comments
25 made to you by either of the police officers that
. 1039
1 caused you this concern.
2 A The first comment was as I passed by, what
3 are you doing out here wasting your time on Sunday
4 night for nothing.
5 The Second comment as I passed by speaking
6 through my megaphone, one of the officers said maybe
7 we should try a noise ordinance violation and see if
8 that works on him.
9 Q During this entire incident did the police
10 officers ever arrest or charge Mr. Minton with any
11 criminal act?
12 A No.
13 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I don't have any
14 further questions.
15 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pope. Let's
16 do this. Wait a minute. We've been going
17 for over an hour. Let's take a break and
18 we'll take 15 minutes.
19 Sir, Mr. Enerson, you're on the stand.
20 I'll let you get down and the bailiff will
21 show you, there are rest rooms in the jury
22 room and then come back and wait on the
23 stand. Please don't talk to anybody.
24 MR. ENERSON: May I go smoke?
25 THE COURT: Sure, I'll let you do that,
. 1040
1 but when you go down and outside to have a
2 cigarette, stay by yourself just this one
3 time so nobody thinks that's there's any
4 problems, anybody slipping information or
5 trying to change your testimony, okay.
6 (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after
7 which the proceedings continued.)
8 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, sir, your turn.
9 MR. POPE: Thank you, Your Honor. May
10 it please the court.
11 THE COURT: Please proceed.
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. POPE:
14 Q Mr. Enerson, I believe you were served with
15 a copy of Injunction Number Two on December 1 at about
16 4:15 PM; is that correct?
17 A I don't recall what time it was, but I was
18 served with an injunction sometime during that
19 weekend.
20 Q All right. And did you throw it down or did
21 you read it?
22 A Actually I was holding a picket sign in my
23 hand. I think I glanced through it as quickly as I
24 could. I think I stuck it either in my pocket or the
25 back of my belt so I could get to a place where I
. 1041
1 could study it over.
2 Q You kept it and then you studied it over,
3 didn't you?
4 A Later on, yeah, I did.
5 Q Okay. And you in fact attended the hearing
6 that led to that injunction, didn't you?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q And you testified at it, didn't you?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q All right. Now, earlier in this proceeding
11 which is distinguished from the one that one last
12 fall, you, I believe were present when Officer
13 Butterfield testified regarding his conversations with
14 Mrs. Bezazian. Weren't you present when he testified
15 in here about that?
16 A I may have been, yeah.
17 Q Officer Butterfield, to refresh your memory,
18 testified about discussing the terms of the injunction
19 with Ms. Bezazian on at least five occasions; do you
20 remember him saying that?
21 A I recall his testimony now, yes.
22 Q Were you present during any of those
23 discussions between that officer and Ms. Bezazian?
24 A I don't recall that I was.
25 Q Were you present -- did you have any
. 1042
1 discussions with any police officers with respect to
2 how that injunction was going to be construed?
3 A I believe on November 30 I had again gone
4 out on the streets of Clearwater earlier in that day
5 and a police officer approached me from across
6 Ft. Harrison Avenue, actually crossed the street.
7 He came up and introduced himself. I don't
8 recall his name. He said he was the duty commander as
9 I recall at that time. He told me that he was there
10 to make sure that our rights, First Amendment rights
11 and so forth were preserved as well as Scientology's,
12 that there was no confrontations or problems on the
13 street and to let me know, he would be around and that
14 was the extent of it.
15 Q Didn't you learn at some point that all you
16 had to do to stop picketing was to turn the picket
17 upside down and walk with it in that fashion?
18 A I don't recall anything in the that says
19 what I'm supposed to do with my sign, Mr. Pope.
20 Q You didn't learn from anyone else informing
21 you or from any police officer that all you had to do
22 to not be picketing was to turn the thing upside down
23 and walk with it like that?
24 MR. MERRETT: I'll object, Your Honor,
25 for relevance. The police are not the
. 1043
1 authors of the injunction.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 MR. ENERSON: I had heard other
4 picketers say, you know, that some police
5 officers had told them to turn the signs
6 down, but I had never been told that.
7 BY MR. POPE:
8 Q You hadn't been told that and you didn't go
9 ask anybody about it, did you?
10 A I didn't know who to ask.
11 Q You didn't know that you could have asked a
12 police officer about that or perhaps an attorney?
13 A Well, I would have had to ask the police
14 officer to interpret the injunction, I guess, but I
15 read the and injunction and it didn't say anything in
16 there about what to do with my sign.
17 Q You would rather just take your changes, I
18 gather?
19 A I didn't think I was taking and chances. I
20 followed the letter of the injunction.
21 Q All right. So, do I understand when you
22 were transitting around that you never did turn your
23 picket sign upside down?
24 A There may have been times that I did. I
25 didn't pay a lot of attention to what I did with my
. 1044
1 signs at one time or another when I was going from one
2 place to another.
3 Q You saw the video of you in front of the
4 Bank of Clearwater Building with your picket up,
5 didn't you?
6 A Yeah, it was up around my shoulder.
7 Q Yeah. It was up, wasn't it?
8 A I think it was. I think the lady in front
9 of me, Ms. Camburn too, was holding hers, Ida Camburn
10 was holding hers up also, so I guess if holding up
11 your sign is a sign that you're picketing then maybe
12 Ms. Camburn just didn't meet the altitude requirement.
13 Q Did you look over the maps that were
14 attached to the injunction?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Did you note with regard the Coachman
17 Building, arrows drawn toward the parking lot that
18 says stay ten feet back from entranceways?
19 A Yeah, I noted that.
20 Q And when you were picketing over there along
21 that parking area of the Coachman Building you were
22 right in the -- you passed right in the middle of that
23 driveway, didn't you?
24 A I passed through it, yes.
25 Q All right, with your picket sign up?
. 1045
1 A I don't recall where it was then. You know,
2 I don't pay attention to where I have it when I'm
3 transitting from one area to another. It may have
4 been.
5 Q You were picketing at that time with
6 Mr. Minton and Mr. Lerma and Ms. Gogolla, was she
7 along with you then?
8 A I had been picketing -- yeah, Ms. Gogolla
9 was along. Yeah, those are the people, but I had been
10 picketing on the south side of the Coachman Building,
11 the orange zone.
12 Q I'm asking you who you were with?
13 A Oh, Mr. Minton, Ms. Gogolla, I think
14 Mr. Lerma was along that day.
15 Q And you participated with other members of
16 the LMT and the picketing that weekend, didn't you?
17 A How do you mean other members of the LMT?
18 Q Well, the other people associated with the
19 LMT. Weren't you out picketing with them?
20 A How do you mean associated?
21 Q You don't understand the word associated
22 with?
23 A I would just like clarification; who is
24 associated or who is a member?
25 Q Connected in any fashion with the LMT?
. 1046
1 A Mr. Minton is obviously connected with the
2 LMT. I consider the others that I probably picketed
3 with that you just named are probably not members or
4 associated with the LMT.
5 Q So as far as you know Mr. Minton is only
6 person with the LMT that you picketed with and
7 everybody else was disassociated with it?
8 A You say a member of.
9 Q I said connected with, associated with,
10 affiliated with?
11 MR. MERRETT: I'm going to object and
12 ask counsel to define the term, whether he
13 means employees, stock holders, directors or
14 if he just means people who like the LMT
15 and don't like Scientology.
16 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I use words that
17 are pretty plain in their meaning in the
18 English language.
19 THE COURT: I think a general English
20 interpretation of those words were intended
21 and I know that Mr. Enerson knows what they
22 mean and I think I understand his answer.
23 BY MR. POPE:
24 Q All right. Now, Mr. Enerson, it's been
25 established that you are the inventor, creator of the
. 1047
1 Penick Picket Pole here that's before us?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q You've talked about the purpose of the pole
4 as being to give everybody a guise as to what ten feet
5 amounted to, correct? That was the main purpose of
6 it?
7 A It serves that purpose, yes.
8 Q Is that the principle purpose you had in
9 mind?
10 A Actually, yeah, that's where it started out.
11 The idea was what is ten feet.
12 Q Okay. What purpose does the horn serve on
13 the thing?
14 A That serves to notify anybody that's
15 approaching it.
16 Q So it's just like --
17 A Or if someone is approaching the end of it
18 and you think they might run into it, to alert them.
19 Q What is the purpose of the injunction
20 handing off the tip of it?
21 A That's what states ten feet.
22 Q Okay. So it was -- you felt like you needed
23 to show people what ten feet was and hang a copy of
24 the injunction on so that they could understand why
25 this was necessary; is what it?
. 1048
1 A I guess if no one has read the injunction,
2 they he could read it at a ten foot distance.
3 Q So you could dangle it front of their face
4 and they could read it if they had any questions about
5 it?
6 A Me?
7 Q Or whoever the user of the thing is?
8 A I didn't have any intent for a user to
9 dangle, as you put it.
10 Q Let's go back. Who did you intend to use
11 this?
12 A Well, obviously injunction is bilateral, so
13 anybody that's encroaching within ten feet.
14 Q Who is going to --
15 A -- that's bound by the injunction.
16 Q Who is going to be wielding the Penick
17 Picket Pole?
18 A You know what. Anybody who chooses to have
19 a Threep can have a Threep.
20 Q Okay. And did you make more than one of
21 these?
22 A At this point, no, that's the prototype,
23 Mr. Pope.
24 Q Okay, that's the prototype right there.
25 THE COURT: Let me stop you right there.
. 1049
1 You said that you conceived and produced the
2 Threep. What's your background? How did
3 you -- what do you do or what had you done in
4 the past to give you this talent?
5 MR. ENERSON: I'm a mechanical design
6 engineer, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: You are? That's what I
8 thought you would say or something or you
9 worked in Hollywood on props or something
10 like that.
11 MR. ENERSON: No, I'm just a mechanical
12 designer.
13 THE COURT: Do you have a mechanical
14 degree?
15 MR. ENERSON: No, I don't. I haven't
16 finished my degree yet but I've been working
17 in that for over 20 years.
18 THE COURT: Designing things?
19 MR. ENERSON: Aerospace engineering
20 and --
21 THE COURT: Whoa, space engineering?
22 MR. ENERSON: Aerospace engineering and
23 mechanical design engineering.
24 THE COURT: Where is your primary place
25 of employment?
. 1050
1 MR. ENERSON: I'm self-employed at this
2 point right now. I contract my services out
3 for different companies that require
4 mechanical design engineering.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Where did you get the
6 parts?
7 MR. ENERSON: Wal-Mart.
8 THE COURT: Really?
9 MR. ENERSON: Everything came from
10 Wal-Mart.
11 THE COURT: How did you get ten feet of
12 what? What is all that?
13 MR. ENERSON: It's actually an
14 extendable fishing pole.
15 THE COURT: That's an extendable fishing
16 pole you get at Wal-Mart?
17 MR. ENERSON: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
19 BY MR. POPE:
20 Q And I suppose if you wanted to economize you
21 could just gut up a bunch of lengths of ten foot cane
22 pole and pass those out too if ten feet was your
23 object, correct?
24 A I couldn't hazard to guess the price,
25 Mr. Pope.
. 1051
1 Q I didn't ask you to hazard to guess at the
2 price.
3 A Well, you asked me if I was going to
4 economize. I don't know. I didn't make a cost
5 differential study of a cane pole versus what I built.
6 Q Wouldn't you suppose that a piece of cane
7 pole is a little cheaper than this device you've got
8 here?
9 A As I said, I haven't priced cane poles
10 versus that.
11 Q You just don't have any idea, do you?
12 A Well, you know, to add everything to a cane
13 pole that I h ave on that, I suppose, I don't know.
14 Q All right.
15 A Again, I would think that a cane pole by
16 itself could be construed as a weapon and I certainly
17 didn't want that to be in any way something that could
18 harm someone, so I felt it necessary to add on all the
19 other accustrements that you see on the Threep.
20 Q Do you understand, Mr. Enerson, why a
21 reasonable person might conclude that there is
22 ridicule and mockery built into your Penick Picket
23 Pole?
24 A I don't thing a personable person would,
25 Mr. Pope. I think they see the humor in it.
. 1052
1 Q This is simply a humorous joke; is that
2 right?
3 A No, it serves the purpose of ten feet, but
4 it also if you look at it it does look funny.
5 Q So it's a funny thing that serves a useful
6 purpose?
7 A I think that's probably an apt description.
8 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about the police
9 incident on January 7. You indicated that you had had
10 a preliminary encounter with the police in which they
11 made statements to you. You were out there at the
12 time with a megaphone, weren't you?
13 A Yes, I was.
14 Q And were you speaking and yelling through
15 the megaphone at the time?
16 A Yes. I was. I was yelling no OTs there.
17 David Miscavige is a squirrel, RTC is squirrelling the
18 tech. Compare the old volumes to the new. Things of
19 that nature.
20 Q How long had you been out there on Watterson
21 Street yelling with your megaphone?
22 A Approximately -- well, to what point?
23 Q Before the episode with Mr. Minton began?
24 A Before the episode with Mr. Minton or the
25 episode with the police officers? With Mr. Minton,
. 1053
1 before the time I left and went back?
2 Q Yeah.
3 A I'm going to guess 10, 15 minutes maybe.
4 Q So you had been out there 10 or 15 minutes
5 yelling through your megaphone and at that point the
6 police made their remarks to you?
7 A Yeah, and my picket sign up too, with me.
8 Q Okay. You were picketing and yelling
9 through the megaphone. At that time the police made
10 their remark to you, right?
11 A Yeah. Well, the first remark was probably
12 about five minutes into it. The second remark was
13 maybe ten minutes into it.
14 Q And one of the remarks was that something to
15 the effect that maybe we should try a noise ordinance
16 violation?
17 A Yeah, that's correct.
18 Q Okay. And you were at that time making
19 noise through your megaphone, right?
20 A Not at the time he said that.
21 Q You had been up to point he said that?
22 A Up to that point, yes.
23 Q For ten or 15 minutes, right?
24 A Maybe ten minutes.
25 Q All right.
. 1054
1 A But not constantly. Just comments here and
2 there.
3 Q And of course you didn't yell anything at
4 all toward the police that was provocative, did you?
5 A No, I did not.
6 Q Okay. Now, you went back and reported what
7 the police said to Mr. Minton, correct?
8 A I think reported in kind of an incorrect
9 characterization.
10 Q You told him about it?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Is that better? Is that more to your
13 liking?
14 MR. MERRETT: I'll object to the
15 argument and his tone and words.
16 MR. POPE: I think we get the --
17 THE COURT: Move to, move on, move on.
18 BY MR. POPE:
19 Q You told Mr. Minton of what had happened,
20 right?
21 A Yes, I met him walking south on the sidewalk
22 and I was walking north and I said I was upset.
23 Q And he and you came back out onto Watterson,
24 right?
25 A That's correct. We were still on Watterson.
. 1055
1 Q And he had his megaphone with him, right?
2 A I think he may have taken the megaphone that
3 I had.
4 Q Did you get another one?
5 A I don't recall. I think the megaphone was
6 passed around between some people.
7 Q At any rate he had a megaphone at that time,
8 right?
9 A I think so.
10 Q And he was yelling at the police telling
11 them that they were agents of Scientology, correct?
12 A As he came down the sidewalk I think that
13 the video shows that he did.
14 Q Right. He was essentially with his
15 megaphone, protesting their alleged connection with
16 Scientology, wasn't he?
17 A I think he was protesting, yes.
18 Q And he then went out into the street,
19 correct?
20 A To circle around the officers to stay ten
21 feet away, yeah.
22 Q Went out into the street and all of a sudden
23 this episode began between the officers and
24 Mr. Minton, correct?
25 A That is correct.
. 1056
1 Q And you yelled something along the lines of
2 Bob, Bob, Bob, didn't you?
3 A As I was interceding when the officers got
4 directly in Mr. Minton's face, almost nose to nose and
5 was threatening Mr. Minton saying some things
6 provocative to him, challenging him. That's when I
7 tried to intercede and just pull Bob away.
8 I didn't know the officer's name or I would
9 have spoken to him too, to put some distance between
10 them and back off.
11 Q And was Mr. Minton by any chance saying
12 anything provocative to the officer?
13 A I don't know what I would characterize as
14 provocative. He was only own saying, you know, you
15 guys are working for Scientology.
16 Q So --
17 A If that's provocative to it, then --
18 Q So you would agree then that I think that
19 the videotape of that transaction would probably be
20 the best evidence of the exchange of words and events
21 that occurred then, wouldn't you?
22 A Of that portion of it, probably.
23 Q Okay. But you don't think, you don't recall
24 as you sit here today that Mr. Minton said anything at
25 all provocative to those police officers; is that
. 1057
1 correct?
2 A Well, it depends on what the officers
3 considered provocative. I mean my opinion was that I
4 considered what the officers were saying the
5 Mr. Minton to be extremely provocative.
6 Q Well, let's --
7 A And the tape doesn't catch that.
8 Q Let me ask you this. Did you hear what
9 Mr. Minton said to the officers?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q If he were right in your face saying that to
12 you in anger would that provoke you?
13 A That I was an agent of Scientology?
14 Q No, no, no a little bit later on, out in the
15 street, the profanity, the swearing, the F-word. You
16 heard that, didn't you?
17 A I've heard it.
18 Q Was that provocative to you if it were right
19 in your face?
20 A I've had that in my face from Scientology,
21 Mr. Pope.
22 Q Would you answer my question? Did you
23 consider it provocative when it came from the
24 Scientologists?
25 A I considered it to be provocative, yeah, I
. 1058
1 guess I would.
2 Q Okay. So would you concede that what
3 Mr. Minton said to the police then was provocative?
4 A I'll concede that. It's provocative.
5 Q All right. Now, how many times have you
6 picketed the Scientologists in Clearwater in the last
7 year-and-a-half?
8 A Oh gosh, you know, I've have to estimate
9 maybe 12, 15 times. I'm going to guess. I don't
10 know. I have counted actually.
11 Q And you live in Pasco County?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q That where you have your business?
14 A That's correct, my home.
15 Q So when you want to picket, what do you do,
16 drive down to Clearwater to do it?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q When you come the Clearwater do you usually
19 stop into the LMT before the picket?
20 A I haven't every time, but most of the time I
21 stop in to see whose there.
22 Q And you usually stop in after the picket
23 too, don't you?
24 A Yes, usually there's been occasion where
25 I've brought sodas with me and left them in the
. 1059
1 refrigerator. They let me chill those there or they
2 will offer me something, drink of water of something.
3 Q And when you hae picket on those occasions
4 have other people left the LMT Building with yo to go
5 picket?
6 A Oh, yeah.
7 Q Okay. So it's kind of a joint enterprise
8 with you, correct?
9 A A joint enterprise?
10 Q Yeah, the go as a group to picket, correct?
11 A Well, yeah, there is a group of people that
12 go as a group to picket, that's true.
13 Q You mentioned some expenses that had been
14 reimbursed to you and I'm not sure I caught that.
15 Could you tell me what expenses have been reimbursed
16 to you by either LMT of Mr. Merrett?
17 A For some court exhibits for here.
18 Q For here?
19 A For this trial, yes.
20 Q Okay, and how many total dollars --
21 A I'm sorry -- yeah, for this trial here.
22 Q How many total dollars worth of exhibits or
23 any dollars worth of reimbursement have you received
24 either from LMT or Mr. Merrett?
25 A $80.
. 1060
1 Q All right.
2 A That was expenditures that I made that they
3 reimbursed me for.
4 MR. POPE: No further questions.
5 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Merrett.
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. MERRETT:
8 Q You were asked some questions about whether
9 it was provocative to get in somebody's face cussing.
10 Could you make it clear for the court who got in whose
11 face that night on Watterson Street.
12 A It was Officer Harbert who got directly in
13 Mr. Minton's face.
14 Q Did Mr. Minton at any time pursue or close
15 with the officers?
16 A Actually, no, Mr. Minton was in the street.
17 The officers came off the sidewalk toward Mr. Minton
18 and got nose to nose with him.
19 MR. MERRETT: If I can have one second.
20 THE COURT: You may.
21 BY MR. MERRETT:
22 Q You mentioned in response to one of
23 Mr. Pope's questions that the video didn't catch what
24 the police officers were saying to Mr. Minton. What
25 were they saying?
. 1061
1 A Officer Harbert was in Mr. Minton's face
2 saying something to the effect of touch me, go ahead
3 and touch me. I dare you.
4 MR. MERRETT: Okay. I don't have
5 anything further.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Howie.
7 MR. HOWIE: Nothing further, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right. Sir, you may
9 step down and have a seat out there.
10 Ladies and gentlemen, this is a real
11 good time. Let's break for lunch. It's
12 12:00 exactly. Let's see you back here at
13 1:30.
14 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, may I make a
15 request. I'm afraid I don't know his name
16 because I don't understand French inflection
17 very well. One of the French journalists has
18 asked if it is permissible for them to
19 interview Mr. Pesenti in the courtroom while
20 the court is in recess.
21 I told them obviously it is, as he
22 appreciated, that it's the court's courtroom
23 and that it's entirely up to you.
24 THE COURT: I'm concerned --
25 MR. POPE: We're all planning to leave
. 1062
1 our stuff in here and thought that the
2 courtroom was going to be secured.
3 THE COURT: Yeah.
4 MR. MERRETT: Is there maybe another --
5 THE COURT: There are empty courtrooms I
6 can let him use.
7 MR. MERRETT: That would be wonderful.
8 THE COURT: Yah. We can open up the one
9 over here. I'm sure it's totally empty.
10 Nothing is going on. It's a courtroom.
11 We'll put the lights on and you cane
12 interview him, okay. This one we'll secure
13 and formally let me say welcome to all of
14 you, to him. I wish somebody had introduced
15 to me to Mr. Pesenti beforehand rather than
16 letting me meet him the way I met him, but --
17 MR. MERRETT: That was m oversight, Your
18 Honor, and I apologize to both of you.
19 THE COURT: Okay, but they're welcome.
20 And, we'll open up another courtroom so they
21 can do it.
22 MR. MERRETT: Thank you.
23 THE COURT: Now, remember if -- sir, in
24 they get rough with you, I don't have
25 anything to do with that. I don't know how
. 1063
1 your press is. The ones over here, you just
2 don't talk to them. Let's go ahead.
3 (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken, after
4 which the proceedings continued.)
5 End of Volume VIII
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