419 1 IN THE COUNTY COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. CTC01-00101MMANO-E 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) ) 5 V. ) VOLUME IV ) 6 JESSE PRINCE, ) ) 7 Defendant. ) ) 8 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�) 9 PROCEEDINGS: Jury Trial 10 BEFORE: Honorable Michael F. Andrews 11 Judge of the County Court 12 DATE: May 24, 2001 13 PLACE: Division E Criminal Justice Center 14 14250 49th Street North Clearwater, FL 34620 15 REPORTED BY: Jennifer Fleischer, RPR 16 Notary Public - State of Florida 17 18 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴� 19 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (727) 224-9500 20 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 420 1 APPEARANCES: Lydia Wardell, Esquire Criminal Justice Center 2 14250 49th Street North Clearwater, FL 34620 3 Assistant State Attorney 4 Denis DeVlaming, Esquire 1101 Turner Street 5 Clearwater, FL 34616 Attorney for the Defendant 6 Paul Johnson, Esquire 7 101 South Franklin Street Suite 101 8 Tampa, FL 33602 9 Helena Kobrin, Esquire 1100 Cleveland Street 10 Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 421 1 INDEX 2 VOLUME I PAGE LINE 3 PRETRIAL MOTIONS . . . . . . . . . . 6 6 4 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION . . . . . . . . 15 1 5 PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS . . . . . . 145 25 6 OPENING STATEMENTS . . . . . . . . . 159 1 7 VOLUME II 8 STATE'S WITNESS: HOWARD CROSBY Direct Examination . . . . . . . 188 14 9 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . .220 23 Redirect Examination . . . . . 240 21 10 Recross Examination . . . . . . 248 22 11 STATE'S WITNESS: MICHAEL BRUNO Direct Examination. . . .. . . 251 3 12 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . 265 12 Redirect Examination . . . . . . 273 22 13 STATE'S WITNESS: STACY MACE 14 Direct Examination . . . . . . . 276 8 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . 282 9 15 STATE RESTS . . . . . . . . . . . . . 283 8 16 MOTION FOR JUDGMENT OF ACQUITTAL . . . 286 24 17 DEFENSE WITNESS: BARRY GASTON 18 Direct Examination . . . . . . . 312 2 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . 342 8 19 Redirect Examination . . . . . 369 5 Recross Examination . . . . . . 370 7 20 VOLUME III 21 DEFENSE WITNESS: BRIAN RAFTERY 22 Direct Examination . . . . . . . 381 1 23 DEFENSE WITNESS: JOSEPH FABRIZIO Direct Examination . . . . . . . 399 9 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 422 1 INDEX CONTINUED 2 VOLUME IV PAGE LINE 3 DEFENSE WITNESS: FRANK OLIVER Direct Examination . . . . . . . 436 3 4 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . 465 5 Redirect Examination . . . . . . 477 22 5 PROFFERED TESTIMONY: DENEEN PHILLIPS 6 Direct Examination . . . . . . . 469 21 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . 525 5 7 JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE: . . . . . . . 528 13 8 DEFENSE RESTS . . . . . . . . . . . . 559 8 9 STATE'S REBUTTAL WITNESS: DENEEN PHILLIPS 10 Direct Examination . . . . . . . 560 1 Cross-Examination . . . . . . . 594 3 11 Redirect Examination . . . . . 608 5 12 STATE'S RESTS: . . . . . . . . . . . . 613 13 13 MOTION FOR JUDGMENT OF ACQUITTAL . . . 613 19 14 VOLUME V 15 STATE'S CLOSING REMARKS . . . . . . . 622 22 16 DEFENSE CLOSING REMARKS . . . . . . . 637 22 17 STATE'S REBUTTAL REMARKS . . . . . .. 647 8 18 JURY INSTRUCTIONS . . . . . . . . . . 661 12 19 ALLEN CHARGE . . . . . . . . . . . . 692 8 20 VERDICT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 696 22 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 423 1 EXHIBITS 2 3 STATE'S EXHIBITS RECEIVED PAGE LINE 4 STATE'S NO. 1 - Investigative 195 15 Assistance Agreement 5 STATE'S NO. 2 - Marijuana Sent To 264 15 6 The Laboratory 7 STATE'S NO. 3 - Photographs 261 4 8 STATE'S NO. 4 - Photographs 261 4 9 STATE'S NO. 5 - Photographs 259 22 10 STATE'S NO. 6 - Photographs 259 22 11 STATE'S NO. 9 - Marijuana Plant 263 18 12 13 DEFENSE EXHIBITS RECEIVED PAGE LINE 14 DEFENSE NO. 1 - Black Flower Pot 195 16 15 DEFENSE NO. 2(A-I) - Photographs 410 7 16 DEFENSE NO. 3 - Pot With Dead 410 16 Root System 17 DEFENSE NO. 5 - Videotape 393 2 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 424 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S C-O-N-T-I-N-U-E-D 2 (OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 3 THE COURT: I had a chance to read over 4 the proffered testimony of Mr. Frank Oliver. 5 Did you all wish to make some sort of 6 argument as it relates to it at this time? 7 This is essentially what I am told he is 8 going testify to in the hearing. It's not 9 really any different. Do you feel compelled 10 to have the proffer still, Miss Wardell? 11 MS. WARDELL: Well, I guess it depends 12 on what your ruling's going to be. If 13 you're inclined to exclude him, then I would 14 say no. If you are inclined to let him 15 testify, then I would like an opportunity to 16 voir dire him to convince you that he 17 shouldn't testify. 18 THE COURT: Well, if he's going to say 19 the same thing that's in this affidavit -- 20 not in this affidavit, but this proffered 21 testimony, I don't know the need to voir 22 dire him again. He's already been voir 23 dired. 24 MS. WARDELL: I just would like to 25 point out, like I mentioned last night, the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 425 1 time frame that he was in the church. I 2 don't recall if that came out or not. 3 THE COURT: Well, it did come out. At 4 least it came out in the testimony, and he 5 was in the church I think until '92. I 6 believe from reading from, like, '86 to '92. 7 So it's a little more than the year you 8 said. It was seven years, my recollection 9 of the testimony to be. And he was moving 10 up through the organization. He ended up in 11 various training courses. 12 He said he took about 80 percent of the 13 courses that he was supposed to take, and then 14 he eventually became disenchanted, tried to get 15 out, and when he was getting out, he went 16 through some particular procedure about the 17 method in which he got out, and then they 18 eventually said that he was attempting to 19 secretly get out. He was basically labeled, 20 arguably, a suppressive, and then a whole bunch 21 of other stuff came in. 22 But here's the thing. It seems to me the 23 basis he is here, the reason he is here to 24 testify today, is about the fair game policy 25 itself. I had a lot of problem, frankly, of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 426 1 whether or not he was really even able to 2 testify to that policy. He -- there are some 3 things that I don't find his in this testimony 4 to be relevant. 5 He talked a lot about what punishment 6 people within the organization would receive. 7 Why that is at all relevant to this criminal 8 case I cannot see. So someone maybe will get an 9 opportunity to tell me that. 10 And he also talked about how it is that 11 there are legal and illegal things to be done to 12 anyone who was supposed to be a critic of the 13 organization, except that when he was pressed on 14 that by Mr. Tyson, the only example he could 15 give was of some woman apparently, allegedly at 16 least, was set up by the organization in the 17 '70s. No other examples did he give. 18 I'm not prepared to find that either as 19 anything he can testify to, because he said, "I 20 never did anything illegal." He gave no 21 examples of anything that he knew of or that any 22 organization or anyone in the organization 23 ordered to be done illegally other than one case 24 in the 70s, which is remote, and which no one at 25 this point in time, at least that I know of, can KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 427 1 provide the Court with any evidence to establish 2 that the church of Scientology did set her up 3 and that it was proven that the young lady was 4 set up at all. So again, he is not going to be 5 able to testify to that either today unless I 6 get something more. 7 He also talked about signing the so called 8 nondisclosure form. I'm not -- I don't see 9 where the nondisclosure form finds itself 10 relevant to the question of whether or not the 11 defendant in this case was set up. I'm not 12 prepared to let him testify to that either. 13 He talks about particular methods of -- he 14 was looking at videotape. Apparently there was 15 some videotape in the last case involving 16 Mr. Minton, and he looked at some videotapes. 17 Apparently there were many more videotapes than 18 even the ones that he looked at. 19 But he looked at some videotapes and was 20 able to, from his looking at the videotapes, 21 say, "This is the way that Scientology does it," 22 except he ends up being pressed on that very 23 issue by Mr. Tyson when Mr. Tyson asked him 24 if -- it was a rebuttal question, and he was not 25 able to say, okay, well, that is something that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 428 1 is done. One second. 2 Oh, yeah. Someone would use a laser 3 pen and put it in your face. Would that be 4 fair game? Well, that apparently doesn't 5 qualify as fair game. He obviously then 6 would know exactly apparently what the 7 training was as it was as it relates 8 particularly to fair game that this is what 9 you do and don't do as a part of fair game. 10 And the question is assuming that this so 11 called fair game policy still existed, is it 12 from his expertise or must be it qualified that 13 when I was in the organization these are some of 14 the legal ways of doing things that I was 15 taught. 16 Because based upon what he says in his 17 proffered testimony, he wasn't taught to do 18 anything illegal that I have seen. Now, if 19 somebody can point out to me where he said that 20 he was taught to do something illegal, he 21 specifically states he was not. 22 So unless there is going to be some 23 argument, I am prepared to allow him to testify. 24 I'm not sure that -- unless again I would have 25 to have more argument as it relates to this, I'm KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 429 1 not prepared to qualify him as any sort of an 2 expert as it relates particularly to the Church 3 of Scientology and any particular tactics that 4 the church has. 5 But he can surely come to court and testify 6 that when he was a member of the Church of 7 Scientology that he was a part of the OAS I 8 think was the acronym -- OSA was the acronym 9 that was attached to the organization, and that 10 under that there was some particular training 11 that was given as to how to address people who 12 were I think the term is "suppressive" toward 13 the organization, those who left the 14 organization, and that harassment was surely one 15 of the tactics -- legal harassment was surely 16 one of the tactics that the organization was 17 apparently prepared to participate in, and 18 through his training that was some of it. 19 But illegal tactics of the organization 20 there is nothing that I have seen that qualifies 21 him to testify to that, or to suggest even that 22 the organization involves itself in illegal 23 tactics. And I'm not prepared to let him 24 testify to the penalties that people who leave 25 organization suffer or, for that matter, any KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 430 1 other penalties that people within the 2 organization may receive. 3 Millions of dollars and nondisclosure 4 forms, again I don't find any of that to be 5 relevant. 6 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, frankly, I do 7 agree with the Court in one respect. The 8 Minton case was a bit different, and he 9 watched the manner in which that actual 10 offense took place, and then he described 11 how the organization in that case would 12 place a person to be able to in a 13 regimented, predetermined way, set up 14 Minton. I'm going agree with you. I don't 15 think that is present here. So I will stay 16 away from it. 17 MS. WARDELL: And all other areas that 18 you just outlined. 19 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, yeah, the 20 Court's -- let's see. The Court did 21 indicate to stay away from the nondisclosure 22 forms. 23 THE COURT: Essentially no testimony 24 about alleged punishment that people within 25 the organization received for whatever KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 431 1 reasons. I don't find it relevant. The 2 nondisclosure forms, again I don't seem to 3 see the relevance in that. 4 Anything that is allegedly illegal that the 5 organization does, setting up people, frankly, 6 is -- he cannot give an example of that. So 7 illegal operations that they allegedly conduct 8 on people, he can't testify to that because I 9 don't see anything that says that. 10 He can testify to the legal forms of 11 harassment that he was taught through the 12 organization to address so called suppressives, 13 and that's where I'm prepared to limit his 14 testimony. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. Judge, 16 Mr. Oliver's in the courtroom since no 17 testimony's being taken. I think he's 18 heard -- oh, is he out? Oh, I'm sorry. He 19 is out. We'll have to tell him. 20 THE COURT: Inform him of that. 21 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Now, having said 23 that, do you still feel compelled to have 24 proffered testimony? 25 MS. WARDELL: As long as it's limited, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 432 1 but I still want to again argue that even 2 the limited nature that you've just pointed 3 out I still think violates 90.611 which 4 prohibits giving opinions and commenting on, 5 not just opinions, but commenting on 6 religious beliefs. 7 For him to come in and say, "When I was a 8 member, this is what I was taught as fair game," 9 that's a comment on that religion. I can't 10 bring in a Methodists to come in and say, "When 11 I went through confirmation I had a nice Sunday 12 lunch and my relatives came and we all sat down 13 and read, you know, the First Corinthians." 14 THE COURT: I read the cases that you 15 gave me. I do not find those cases to be on 16 point as it relates to the case at all. I 17 understand your argument, but that is, I 18 think, distinguishable considering the 19 circumstances of this case. 20 There is no question that this entire case 21 arose out of an investigation that was started 22 through Church of Scientology. Now, whether or 23 not the defendant had any particular 24 predisposition to use or possess marijuana, you 25 know, I'm not -- the jury will make that call. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 433 1 But under these circumstances there is a 2 defense that is relevant to the circumstance -- 3 or let me restate that. It is relevant to the 4 defense in this case that Church of Scientology 5 did initiate this investigation, and for that 6 matter contacted the police after they found the 7 illegal -- alleged illegal substances that the 8 defendant's is accused possessing, and that 9 arguably that they even contacted the police 10 because they were not happy with the particular 11 charge that was brought forth. I find that 12 relevant, and therefore I'm going to overrule 13 your objection on that. 14 MS. WARDELL: I don't disagree with any 15 of that, Judge. I'm just saying that for 16 him to talk about the practices that he was 17 taught. I don't disagree that all of those 18 things are arguments the Defense has, they 19 have laid out, it's out there. 20 THE COURT: How do they make that 21 argument without saying that that is part of 22 the practice? 23 MR. DEVLAMING: He's already got out 24 through the private investigators and 25 through the officer that everything you just KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 434 1 said about they called you and they told you 2 what charges they wanted, they started this 3 investigation, they were behind the whole 4 thing. All of that is already out there. 5 Fair game and his interpretation of what 6 fair game is not something -- that is not 7 one of those five things that you just said 8 was his defense. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MS. WARDELL: All right. And then my 11 only other argument that I would ask you to 12 consider is the fact that by him doing that 13 he is, in effect, commenting on the 14 credibility of -- of, you know, a witness 15 that really isn't a witness in the case. He 16 is commenting on the credibility of the 17 Church of Scientology and it's members who 18 have directed people or not directed people 19 to do these practices. 20 THE COURT: All right. Duly noted. 21 All right. Bring them in. 22 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I'll tell 23 Mr. Oliver your ruling. 24 THE COURT: Please, somebody tell him. 25 (IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 435 1 THE COURT: Good morning. 2 THE JURY: Good morning. 3 THE COURT: I said ten. It's ten. You 4 got the truth here. Now, I have one 5 question really to ask you all. Did you all 6 follow my instructions. When I say that, 7 you didn't watch the television reports on 8 this and you did not read the paper as it 9 relates to this? Can everybody agree with 10 that? 11 THE JURY: Yes. 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very 13 much. We have -- we're sort of on hold for 14 a moment. 15 If you would please call your first 16 witness. 17 MR. DEVLAMING: Your Honor, at this 18 time the Defense calls Frank Oliver to the 19 stand. 20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 21 Whereupon, 22 FRANK OLIVER, 23 the Defense witness herein, being first duly 24 sworn upon oath, was questioned and testifies as 25 follows: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 436 1 THE COURT: Please proceed. 2 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 5 Q Tell us your name. 6 A My name's Frank Oliver. 7 Q And what city do you live in, Mr. Oliver? 8 A I live in Miami, Florida. 9 Q And what do you do for a living? 10 A I'm a graphic designer. 11 Q And could I ask your age. 12 A I'm thirty-eight. 13 Q And, Mr. Oliver, was there a time when you 14 were a member of an orgranization called the Church 15 of Scientology? 16 A Yes, I was. I joined it in 1986. 17 Q And how long did you stay within the Church 18 of Scientology? 19 A Until November of 1992. 20 Q And while you were a member of the Church 21 of Scientology, did you have any particular duties 22 and responsibilities there? 23 A In the first several years I was a member I 24 was recruited for staff and I was a tech call-in 25 officer in -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 437 1 Q Let me stop you because you're using terms 2 that we all don't know. You were a tech calling 3 officer. What is that? 4 A A tech call-in officer. I worked in a 5 particular division of the organization that called 6 in people that had paid for services. I called them 7 in to schedule them to do the services and to 8 possibly get them to expand their services that they 9 had purchased. 10 Q Okay. And are there two ways to go through 11 the Church of Scientology, that is, to stairstep? 12 A There is several entrance points into the 13 organization. One side of what they call their 14 bridge, you know, which is their route to some sort 15 of spiritual awareness through training, and another 16 side is through receiving of this counselling they 17 call auditing. 18 Q Okay. And did you participate in both or 19 did you participate in one? 20 A I participated in both sides. 21 Q Okay. And did you ever become a member of 22 the Office of Special Affairs of the church? 23 A In late 1989 I started assisting the Office 24 of Special Affairs within the organization that I was 25 a member of in Miami. It was called the Department KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 438 1 of Special Affairs in that type of organization. And 2 I was recruited to join staff in that department not 3 too long after that. 4 Q What is the Office of Special Affairs? 5 A It's a division within the organization 6 that handles legal matters of the organization, 7 public relations and investigations. 8 Q When you say investigations, does that have 9 anything to do with church critics? 10 A It has to do with anyone that the 11 organization deems to be an enemy, whether it be a 12 critic, someone from the outside, people who have 13 expressed a dissatisfaction with the organization, 14 anyone who they feel could jeopardize the forward 15 progress of the organization, is, you know, worthy of 16 being investigated. 17 Q Okay. And is there a term that is used for 18 such a person? 19 A Yes. A person is considered a "suppressive 20 person." It's a term within Scientology that's 21 labeled to for anyone that tries to impede or inhibit 22 the expansion, growth or activity of Scientology. 23 They're called SP's. 24 Q Are you a suppressive person according to 25 the church? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 439 1 A According to the church. Not according to 2 anyone else I know. 3 Q Okay. And were you given any written 4 documentation by the church declaring you a 5 suppressive person? 6 A When I left in 1992 I was given a document 7 called an SP Declare which is a declaration from the 8 organization that I was now labeled by them to be a 9 suppressive person. And the reason for that was 10 because I wanted to leave the organization. That in 11 itself is, you know, enough for them declare you a 12 suppressive person. 13 Q Did they actually hand you a document with 14 this declare on it? 15 A Yes. And it lists anything that they 16 considered was my, you know, my shortcomings within 17 what I was doing. And my -- you know, the reason, 18 the crime, if you were -- you know, if I was to give 19 it a characterization, the crime that I committed to 20 earn to be declared and SP, which was that I was, 21 according to them, that I had secretly made plans to 22 leave. So because I had made plans to leave the 23 organization, that automatically made me a 24 suppressive person. 25 Q Okay. And this document which I'm going to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 440 1 show you in a minute, was that literally given to you 2 by someone? 3 A That was handed to me by a gentleman named 4 Erik Arnette who's the -- who at that time was the 5 Director of Inspections and Reports from the Church 6 of Scientology of Miami, actually Coral Gables. 7 Q I'd like to show you what's been marked as 8 Defense Exhibit NO. 6 for identification. Is this 9 the declare that you have just testified to? 10 A Yes, it is. 11 MR. DEVLAMING: Your Honor, at this 12 time I would offer into evidence Defense 13 Exhibit NO. 6. 14 MS. WARDELL: Judge, it's hearsay. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, it doesn't go to 16 the truth of the matter asserted. It goes 17 to whether he was told that he was a 18 declare. 19 THE COURT: Then it's the matter 20 asserted. 21 MR. DEVLAMING: Pardon? 22 THE COURT: Then it's a matter 23 asserted, isn't it? 24 MR. DEVLAMING: But he just testified 25 to that. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 441 1 MS. WARDELL: And, Judge -- 2 THE COURT: But it does go to that. 3 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. Judge, I don't 4 think a document handed to him is a hearsay 5 document if he was given it at the time he 6 left the church. 7 THE COURT: Approach. 8 (WHEREUPON THE FOLLOWING BENCH CONFERENCE WAS HAD) 9 THE COURT: Can I see the document? 10 Why would that not be hearsay? It's still 11 an out of court statement being offered to 12 prove the truth of the matter asserted 13 within the statement itself. 14 MR. DEVLAMING: I think it just goes to 15 corroborate his statement that he was made a 16 suppressive person. 17 THE COURT: It's still hearsay. 18 MR. DEVLAMING: If that's the way 19 you're ruling, that's your ruling. 20 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 21 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. 22 MS. WARDELL: Thank you. 23 (WHEREUPON THE BENCH CONFERENCE CONCLUDED) 24 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 25 Q Mr. Oliver, do you know a man by the name KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 442 1 of Jesse Prince? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q And do you know him to be, according to the 4 Church of Scientology, a suppressive person? 5 A According to the Church of Scientology, 6 yes, they would consider Jesse Prince a suppressive 7 person. 8 Q Why? 9 A Because he -- 10 MS. WARDELL: Objection, Judge. How 11 can this witness comment on what the church 12 would consider another individual to be? 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 MR. DEVLAMING: I'll lay a better 15 predicate. 16 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 17 Q How well do you know Mr. Prince and in what 18 capacity do you know him? 19 A I met Mr. Prince a few years ago. He is a 20 member of the Lisa McPherson Trust. I know him to be 21 a good person. 22 Q What is the Lisa McPherson Trust? 23 A The Lisa McPherson Trust is an organization 24 that was established in Clearwater to expose the 25 deceptive practices and abuses of the Church of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 443 1 Scientology. 2 Q You know what -- I'm sorry. 3 A It's an organization that helps people 4 getting out of the organization, families of people 5 that have members that were in Scientology or in 6 Scientology and want to get out, and they basically 7 provide information and assistance to these people 8 and document the abuses and report them to the 9 appropriate authorities. 10 Q Are all people within the Lisa McPherson 11 Trust declared to be suppressive persons? 12 MS. WARDELL: Objection, Judge. How 13 would he know what's the church -- 14 THE COURT: I have to sustain that 15 objection. 16 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 17 Q What is the Sea Org? 18 A The Sea Org is a organization that exists 19 within Scientology. It's a military-like 20 organization, or it's a modeled after the navy, and 21 it has rank and uniforms. And these people make a 22 billion year commitment to Scientology. They sign a 23 billion year contract that they will serve 24 Scientology lifetime after lifetime, and they're very 25 dedicated members, if I can phrase it that way. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 444 1 Q Okay. What's the difference between a 2 Sea Org and somebody that's a parishioner, somebody 3 that goes to the Church of Scientology? 4 A Sea Org members actually live there, they 5 work there, they're entire life is completely 6 enveloped in Scientology. That's all they do. They 7 work for the organization, you know, they're there 8 24-7. There is no going home for, you know, vacation 9 or anything like that. They are just completely 10 within the organization. 11 Q Okay. While you were within the Office of 12 Special Affairs during your time in the Church of 13 Scientology, did you take any courses? 14 A Yes, I took many courses. 15 Q Okay. And who was L. Ron Hubbard? 16 A L. Ron Hubbard is the founder of 17 Scientology. 18 Q Okay. And can L. Ron Hubbard or did 19 L. Ron Hubbard make policy? 20 A Well, Mr. Hubbard wasn't alive when I 21 joined Scientology, but all the policies, all the 22 technical bulletins and everything written in 23 Scientology was written by L. Ron Hubbard. 24 Q Okay. And could his policies be changed by 25 others? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 445 1 A Only by L. Ron Hubbard. His policies 2 specifically state that because he is the founder of 3 the organization, and, you know, the one that 4 discovered this technology, that anyone that isn't 5 him that would try and change or alter it would be 6 committing a grievous, you know, transgression 7 against Scientology. So anything that would alter or 8 change anything that L. Ron Hubbard wrote is 9 considered, you know, blasphemy I guess in 10 Scientology. No one can change what he wrote except 11 him. 12 Q Are you familiar with a policy that the 13 church had in the 1960s or at least promulgated in 14 the 1960s called fair game? 15 A I'm familiar with that policy letter, yes. 16 Q Okay. And what is it? 17 A Fair game is a policy letter which lays out 18 what is to be done and how a person deemed by 19 Scientology as suppressive, how they are to be dealt 20 with. 21 Q And how are they to be dealt with according 22 to L. Ron Hubbard's policy letter? 23 A Well, the term "fair game," you know, used 24 in common vernacular means anything that could be, 25 you know -- if something is declared fair game let's KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 446 1 say amongst people that aren't in Scientology, you 2 can go after and do something to it, and if it's 3 within the boundaries of what is accepted in 4 Scientology, that understanding is carried forth. 5 Meaning that someone that is acknowledged by the 6 organization to be fair game is subject to activities 7 against them that might otherwise, you know, not be 8 within the rules. But if that person is declared 9 fair game, then just about anything could be done to 10 them without fear of retribution to yourself. 11 Q And a person can be lied to or tricked or 12 even destroyed? 13 A That's exactly what the policy letter 14 states. 15 Q Are you familiar with that policy letter? 16 A Yes, I am. 17 Q Mr. Oliver, let me show you what in a 18 moment is going to be marked as Defense Exhibit NO. 7 19 and ask whether or not this is the policy letter 20 you're referring to by L. Ron Hubbard. 21 A Yes, it is. 22 Q Okay. And during the time that you were 23 within the Church of Scientology, do you recognize 24 that as to be an active policy employed by the 25 church? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 447 1 A This policy is still in effect. There was 2 a subsequent policy to this that just, you know, 3 defined it for window dressing, public relations 4 purposes. It just defined the use of the term "fair 5 game." But what is done to a suppressive person, 6 that doesn't change, you know. 7 Q Okay. And does that policy letter in front 8 of you dictate what an enemy is of the church? 9 A Yes. It's -- an enemy is someone who has 10 been issued an SP order is fair game, may be deprived 11 of property or injured been any means by any 12 scientologist without any discipline of the 13 scientologist, may be tricked, sued or lied to or 14 destroyed. 15 Q And you said there was another policy 16 letter by -- what's the date than policy letter? 17 A This one is issued 16 -- excuse me, 18 18 October 1967, I believe. 19 Q Okay. Let me show you a policy letter 20 dated 21 October, 1968, marked as 21 Defense Exhibit NO. 8. Is that the policy letter 22 where you just referred to a moment ago? 23 A Yes, this is the -- I believe it's called 24 Cancellation of Fair Game. 25 Q Okay. And how did it cancel fair game? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 448 1 A Well, it doesn't really cancel fair game. 2 It cancels the term "fair game." It depends on how 3 someone would read this what it actually said. What 4 it says, "The practice of declaring people fair game 5 will cease. Fair game may not appear on any ethics 6 order. It causes bad public relations. This PL, 7 which stands for policy letter, does not cancel --" 8 MS. WARDELL: Objection, Judge. What 9 he's doing is reading the letter, and it's 10 pure hearsay. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 13 Q Okay. Did that -- did that exhibit take 14 back fair game or just take back the term "fair 15 game?" 16 MS. WARDELL: Objection, Judge. He's 17 in-arounding hearsay. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: All this did was change 20 what it was called. It didn't change 21 anything about what was done to a person who 22 was declared an SP. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. Your Honor, at 24 this time I would offer into evidence 25 Defense Exhibit NO. 7 for identification and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 449 1 NO. 8. 2 MS. WARDELL: Objection. Hearsay. 3 Same argument we made a minute ago. 4 THE COURT: You want to respond to 5 that? 6 MR. DEVLAMING: No. I don't believe -- 7 I believe this man is qualified to -- 8 THE COURT: Please approach. 9 (WHEREUPON THE FOLLOWING BENCH CONFERENCE WAS HAD) 10 THE COURT: Sorry. You say he's 11 qualified to -- your response is? 12 MR. DEVLAMING: I think he's qualified 13 to testify since he was within the 14 organization, he was taught about these 15 particular doctrines, and plus I think it's 16 a -- I'll have to grab the ruling on the 17 Chapter 90, but I also believe that it's an 18 exception to hearsay rule. These are 19 published periodicals. 20 MS. WARDELL: Judge, it's still 21 hearsay. 22 THE COURT: Here's the thing I haven't 23 heard yet. I haven't heard -- first of all, 24 I never even heard that this guy even saw 25 the fair game policy, and nor that he even KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 450 1 saw the second document that you're handing, 2 and he's already testified to it, so he 3 surely has done that. But introducing the 4 document itself, I'm not seeing it 5 authenticated. 6 MS. WARDELL: Judge, even beyond the 7 authentification (sic) issue, there's no way 8 around -- 9 THE COURT: After it's authenticated, 10 then I think then we have to get past the 11 hearsay question. 12 MS. WARDELL: Just think of it as an 13 intox form. I can't have an officer just -- 14 I can't just walk up a say, okay, here it 15 is. I've got to have it certified, I've got 16 to have it be in a public record, I got to 17 have it -- 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Let me shorten it. Let 19 me do this. I'll tell you what, let me go 20 on, hold your ruling right now, but let me 21 do that on a break and I'll provide it to 22 the Court. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. DEVLAMING: All right. 25 (WHEREUPON THE BENCH CONFERENCE CONCLUDED) KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 451 1 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 2 Q Mr. Oliver, these policy letters that we 3 have been discussing while you were within the Church 4 of Scientology, were they part of your training? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Were they within the materials given to you 7 by the Church of Scientology? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What were they contained within that 10 allowed you to review them as being a part of church 11 policy? 12 A They're contained in different -- in green 13 vol's, I believe. I can't cite exactly which volume 14 it is. Everything in Scientology is written in 15 certain colors. Policy is written with green ink on 16 white paper and is contained in green volumes in 17 Scientology. Things of a technical nature are red 18 ink on white paper, and they are contained in the red 19 volumes. 20 Those are referred to repeatedly in 21 Scientology when, you know, throughout your 22 normal training or in a course of a day or, you 23 know, whatever it is you're working on, when you 24 need to refer to how something is to be done you 25 refer to these policy letters. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 452 1 They're also contained in different packs. 2 If you're working on something and -- or you're 3 working on a particular course, it will always 4 refer to a policy letter. Different policy 5 letters are required reading when you do 6 different courses, and then when you are done, 7 what they do to make sure you have an 8 understanding of the policy letter, they do 9 something called a star read checkout, which 10 they sit you down and make sure you have a full 11 understanding of the policy letter. So any 12 policy letter that's red, you really have to 13 know. 14 Q Okay. And was -- based upon your position 15 within that organization, were these policy letters 16 required for you to read, understand and know? 17 A Completely. They dealt exclusively with 18 the type of individual that I was mandated to 19 investigate as an investigations officer. 20 Q Okay. So you were part of this Office of 21 Special Affairs for a period of six or seven years or 22 during at least that time? 23 A During the time I was a member it was 24 approximately two years. A little over two years. 25 Q What years were those? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 453 1 A Starting in late 1989 going into 1992 when 2 I left. 3 Q Did you conduct any surveillance yourself 4 on suppressive persons? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 MS. WARDELL: Objection, Judge. 7 Relevance. Outside the scope of this case. 8 Outside your previous ruling. 9 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, I thought it was 10 within it. 11 THE COURT: I think it is within it. 12 Overruled. 13 MR. DEVLAMING: Yeah, okay. 14 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 15 Q And did you personally do anything unlawful 16 during the course of your duties during that 17 twenty-four-month period? 18 A I don't believe I did anything unlawful; 19 however, I was given documents whose origins could 20 only have been obtained by unlawful means. 21 Q Did you -- did -- 22 MS. WARDELL: Judge, I would move to 23 strike. 24 THE COURT: It is stricken, and it is 25 outside what I previously ordered. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 454 1 MS. WARDELL: And an admonition to this 2 witness to stay within the parameters of 3 your ruling. 4 THE COURT: Take the jury out. 5 (OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 6 THE BAILIFF: The jury is out of the 7 hearing of the Court. 8 THE COURT: I want to make sure you're 9 clear about my ruling. You cannot testify 10 at all about any unlawful or illegal 11 activities that took place within the Church 12 of Scientology while you were there 13 regarding to investigating other people at 14 all. 15 Any documents that you surmise that were 16 apparently gotten as you have testified through 17 illegal means you can't testify to because you 18 don't know how those documents were gotten. So 19 you can't testify to that. Do you understand? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: You aren't going to talk 22 about any nondisclosure forms, any 23 punishment that people received within the 24 organization themselves for failing to do 25 things that the organization likes or does KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 455 1 not like. 2 MS. WARDELL: Judge, you said 3 specifically no examples. 4 THE COURT: He couldn't give examples. 5 That's the point I was making, so you can't 6 give an example now. You couldn't give any 7 in your previous -- well, the point is you 8 can't give any testimony at all about 9 anything illegal or allegedly illegal that 10 the church did. There's no testimony to 11 that. Are you with me on that? 12 THE WITNESS: I understand. 13 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. 14 MS. WARDELL: Judge, would the Court 15 consider instructing the jury that what he 16 said is solely based upon his opinion, that 17 there is no evidence, there is nothing to 18 substantiate the church in any way obtained 19 documents that were in any way illegal 20 manners were used? 21 THE COURT: What I will tell them is 22 you are to disregard last statement 23 regarding any documents obtained illegally 24 by the Church of Scientology. 25 THE WITNESS: May I ask a question, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 456 1 your Honor, for clarification? 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: In that particular 4 example, Mr. DeVlaming asked me the 5 question -- at the time when I was given 6 these documents this was part of my 7 beginnings in questioning what I was 8 involved in, and the fact that this type of 9 document that I was given, what I was shown, 10 I know to be something that a member of the 11 public cannot in any way, shape or form -- 12 THE COURT: How do you know that? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm -- if I got a 14 copy of your phone records -- 15 THE COURT: What's your point? People 16 can get my phone records legally. How do 17 you know that? 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know that to be. 19 THE COURT: Then you can't say it. 20 THE WITNESS: But that was my 21 understanding. 22 THE COURT: Based on what? 23 THE WITNESS: Based on my training 24 to -- 25 THE COURT: So somebody trained you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 457 1 that these documents have to be gotten 2 illegally? 3 THE WITNESS: We had to impersonate the 4 people who we were investigating in order to 5 obtain them, and I know that to be illegal, 6 sir. 7 THE COURT: Do you know for certain 8 that the documents that were received were 9 gotten illegally? Are you able to say for 10 certain, I mean, you had direct knowledge or 11 someone specifically stated to you, "I got 12 this illegally"? 13 THE WITNESS: If the methodology -- 14 THE COURT: No. That's a yes or no 15 question. 16 THE WITNESS: Not that particular 17 document. 18 THE COURT: Then you can't testify to 19 that. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. I just wanted to 21 be clear. 22 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. All right. 23 MS. WARDELL: May I have a moment? 24 THE COURT: Sure. 25 MS. WARDELL: Thank you. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 458 1 THE COURT: Please bring them back. 2 (IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 3 THE BAILIFF: The jury is in the 4 courtroom and seated, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the 6 jury, you are to disregard the last 7 statement regarding documents that were 8 allegedly obtained by the Church of 9 Scientology through illegal means. There's 10 been no evidence of that. 11 Please proceed. 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Thank you, your Honor. 13 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 14 Q Mr. Oliver, do you know what year 15 L. Ron Hubbard died? 16 A I believe it was the day after the 17 Challenger blew up. I think it was 1986 or '85. It 18 was 1986 or '85. One of those two years. It was the 19 day after the Challenger blew up. I remember that. 20 Q After his death, can any policy letter be 21 withdrawn or cancelled that was written by 22 L. Ron Hubbard? 23 MS. WARDELL: Judge, I would object. 24 How would he have this information? 25 THE COURT: I think he'll tell us that. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 459 1 Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: As a member of 3 Scientology it's clearly stated on the 4 policy letters that the written word of 5 L. Ron Hubbard cannot be changed by anyone 6 other than L. Ron Hubbard. 7 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 8 Q And can you tell us whether or not there is 9 any policy within the church which would declare 10 critics as criminals? 11 A There are policy letters that state that 12 anyone who opposes Scientology should be investigated 13 for criminal activities and that they are -- if the 14 information isn't, there it can be manufactured, and, 15 you know, fed to the press. There is a particular 16 policy letter that states that. 17 MS. WARDELL: Your Honor, I would 18 object. This witness has intentionally 19 violated your order. 20 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I asked him the 21 question as to whether there was a policy as 22 to that term of criminals being critics or 23 critics being criminals. 24 THE COURT: Jury out. 25 (OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 460 1 THE BAILIFF: The jury is out of the 2 hearing of the Court, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Do you happen to be in 4 possession of such a policy letter? 5 MR. DEVLAMING: I think we do have a 6 copy of it. 7 THE COURT: May I see it? 8 THE WITNESS: It's in more than one 9 policy letter also. 10 THE COURT: That people have to be 11 labeled criminals? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 THE COURT: And what does that mean? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, anyone who -- since 15 they believe that Scientology is the only 16 hope for mankind, anyone that would try to 17 keep that from being the truth must be a 18 criminal. It's just stated that way. 19 THE COURT: Now, I remember you saying 20 that in your previous statement. But are 21 you at this time also saying that then you 22 must do something to make that person appear 23 criminal? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. There is a 25 policy letter that says that. It says KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 461 1 manufacture -- you know, find or manufacture 2 enough evidence to prove that that statement 3 is true. There is policy letter. 4 THE COURT: All right. Fine. If you 5 are going to testify to manufacturing 6 evidence to prove the statement is true, 7 that goes against what I've already ordered, 8 and unless you've got some specific example 9 of when it is that the Church of Scientology 10 did it or how they told you to do -- because 11 you're telling me based upon what I have 12 read, you've never been ordered to 13 participate in anything illegal. 14 THE WITNESS: I thought he was asking 15 me about if there is a policy letter that 16 states that. I guess I'm not understanding, 17 sir. 18 THE COURT: I don't want you to talk 19 about anything that the church allegedly did 20 or said they were going to do to make 21 someone criminal. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay, well -- 23 MS. WARDELL: Judge, there is no way 24 that wasn't clear. We went over this on 25 more than one occasion. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 462 1 THE COURT: I don't think I was 2 unclear. 3 MS. WARDELL: I mean, at this point the 4 witness -- what is my remedy here? I mean, 5 I don't get a mistrial. The remedy is -- 6 THE COURT: You have it there, 7 Mr. DeVlaming? 8 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. There's a 9 policy letter dated August 15, 196O, by 10 L. Ron Hubbard, page 484, that states, "If 11 attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone 12 or anyone or anything or any organization, 13 always find or manufacture enough threat 14 against them to cause them to sue for 15 peace." 16 THE COURT: That does not say that. 17 That does not say as best I can tell that 18 you should find something or create 19 something criminal on someone. 20 THE WITNESS: I believe there is 21 another policy letter that you might want to 22 look at. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, there is, Judge, 24 and I -- 25 THE WITNESS: There's -- keep looking. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 463 1 It's in there. 2 MR. DEVLAMING: All right. At this 3 point in time I'm prepared to instruct the 4 jury again. I'm telling you for the last 5 time. Are you clear now? 6 THE WITNESS: If I have a doubt, should 7 I ask you? 8 THE COURT: You should look this way. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay, sir. I just -- I 10 thought I was answering the question, and I 11 was -- 12 THE COURT: Please bring them back. 13 (IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 14 THE BAILIFF: Your Honor, the jury is 15 back in the courtroom and seated. 16 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you 17 are to disregard the last statement. At 18 this point there is no evidence that the 19 Church of Scientology ordered anyone to 20 manufacture any evidence to make someone 21 appear criminal. 22 Please proceed. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Your Honor. 24 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 25 Q When you were in the Office of Special KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 464 1 Affairs would there be any policy about trying to 2 discredit or impeach someone that was perceived to be 3 an enemy of the church? 4 A Let me think about this for a second before 5 I answer. I'm not sure how I can answer this 6 question, and I'm not -- 7 Q Well, let's do it this way. 8 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, I would ask 9 you to lead him. 10 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay. Thank you. 11 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 12 Q Was there a policy of the church that would 13 ask you to gather as a member of OSA information that 14 would lead to impeach or discredit someone that was 15 perceived to be a suppressive person? 16 A There are several policy letters that 17 instruct or -- 18 Q You can answer yes or no. 19 A I'm just trying to be -- I'm trying to 20 answer the question and not upset the Judge, 21 because -- 22 THE COURT: Your attorney is telling 23 you you can answer yes or no. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, there are. 25 BY MR. DEVLAMING: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 465 1 Q There are such policy letters? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Thank you. That's all I have. 4 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. WARDELL: 7 Q Sir, there's also a policy letter, whatever 8 color, that says, "Nothing in this policy letter 9 shall ever or under any circumstances justify any 10 violation of the laws of the land or intentional 11 illegal wrongs. Any such offenses shall subject the 12 offender to penalties prescribed by law as well as 13 ethics of injustice and actions," correct? 14 A I ask what your referring to specifically, 15 ma'am. 16 Q A policy. You referred to these policies 17 on direct examination. Now I want to ask you if you 18 remember that policy? 19 A Can you tell me what the name of the policy 20 is? 21 Q No, sir. I'm asking you if you remember 22 the content, that content in one of your policies 23 that you reviewed. In fact, that policy was shown to 24 you about a year and a half ago when you testified in 25 this building on another case, wasn't it? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 466 1 A Yes, it was. 2 Q And you didn't want to remember it until it 3 was shown to you, did you? 4 A Actually, I never saw the policy letter 5 before that point, ma'am. 6 Q So why are you acting right now as if you 7 hadn't heard that when you were just shown that about 8 a year ago? 9 A As a member be the Office of Special 10 Affairs? 11 Q My question is very simple. 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, may the witness 13 answer the question? 14 MS. WARDELL: The witness -- 15 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to 16 ask him -- I'm going to ask you to allow him 17 to answer the question. Go ahead. 18 THE WITNESS: There are policy letters 19 that may state one thing, and there are 20 policy letters that a member of the Office 21 of Special Affairs acts upon which are in 22 direct conflict with other policy letters. 23 BY MS. WARDELL: 24 Q Sir, that wasn't my question. My question 25 was why did you try to act like to me you hadn't KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 467 1 heard that content before when you were, in fact, 2 shown that about a year ago by the state attorney in 3 a criminal proceeding? 4 A It wasn't a policy letter that I had ever 5 seen when I was a member. 6 Q But you saw it about a year ago, right? 7 A Not when I was a member of Scientology, 8 though. 9 Q The question was you saw it about a year 10 ago? 11 A I saw it. I saw -- it was shown to me a 12 year ago if that's the answer to your question. 13 Q And it came out of one of Scientology's 14 policy books, right? 15 A Yes, it was shown to me from the 16 Scientology -- 17 Q Now, you were only a scientologist for a 18 limited time; is that correct? 19 A No, it is not correct. 20 Q Not much more than a year, year and a half? 21 A From 1986 until 1992 is more than a year 22 and a half. 23 Q Well, isn't it true you were only an active 24 member between September of '87 and January '88, you 25 look a leave of absence, and you came back in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 468 1 February '91 to November of '91? 2 A No, that's not correct. 3 Q So that's wrong? 4 A Yes, that's wrong. 5 Q So it's to your testimony you were a 6 Scientologist for, what, two years? 7 A From 1986 until 1992. 8 Q '86 to '92? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 Q Okay. So you haven't had any dealings with 11 the innerworkings of the church since 1992? 12 A Not with the innerworkings of the church. 13 Q Okay. And isn't it fair to say that all of 14 your testimony today has been a comment on the 15 religious practices of the Church of Scientology? 16 A I don't believe I have said anything having 17 to do with religious practice, ma'am. 18 Q Isn't fair game one of their practices? 19 A It's not a religious practice. 20 Q Well, isn't the Church of Scientology a 21 recognized religion? 22 A By one government. 23 Q The United States of America recognizes the 24 Church of Scientology as a religion, correct? 25 A No, I believe it's the Internal Revenue KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 469 1 Service that recognizes Scientology. 2 Q That's right. Worldwide they are 3 recognized as a religion, correct? 4 A No, ma'am, that is not correct. 5 Q And -- 6 A They are not recognized as a religion 7 worldwide. In Greece I believe they are a 8 corporation there. 9 Q Let's talk about the united States of 10 America. 11 A You asked me worldwide. 12 Q Okay. Well, I'm now taking -- 13 THE COURT: Okay. Here's the thing. I 14 want you all to stop and then you start, 15 then you start and you stop, because the 16 court reporter can't take you both down. 17 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 18 THE COURT: Let's proceed. 19 BY MS. WARDELL: 20 Q In the United States where they are 21 governed by our laws, they are recognized as a 22 church, correct? 23 A I believe it's only by one agency, the 24 Internal Revenue Service. 25 Q And therefore any of their practices an KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 470 1 policies would be their religious beliefs, correct? 2 A No, I don't believe that's correct. 3 Q Now, you testified on direct that you were 4 told to do, quote, just about anything with regards 5 to somebody who is as suppressive person, but you 6 were never specifically told to do anything illegal, 7 were you? 8 A I was never told. 9 Q So that's a yes, you were never told to do 10 anything illegal by any member of the Church of 11 Scientology? 12 A I have an answer, your Honor, but I'm not 13 sure if I'm going to say something -- 14 THE COURT: Here's the question. Were 15 you ever told by a member of the Church of 16 Scientology to do anything illegal? And 17 that is the question that you should answer. 18 THE WITNESS: It relates back -- 19 THE COURT: No, I doesn't. If you were 20 told -- 21 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- 22 THE COURT: No. Listen to the question 23 and answer the question. Please repeat your 24 question, Miss Wardell. 25 BY MS. WARDELL: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 471 1 Q You personally were never specifically told 2 to engage in an illegal practice, in other words, a 3 practice that is considered illegal by our laws not 4 by the church's laws, illegal by our laws that we all 5 abide by. You were never told to do anything 6 illegal, correct? 7 A No, I was never told to do anything 8 illegal. 9 Q Thank you. In fact, once you became a, 10 quote, suppressive person, you voluntarily chose to 11 engage in antagonistic practices against church 12 members, didn't you? 13 A Ma'am, I don't believe myself to be a 14 suppressive person. 15 Q Well, you said the church labeled you 16 suppressive, right? 17 A They labeled me suppressive. That doesn't 18 make me suppressive. 19 Q Once you were labeled suppressive by the 20 church, you yourself engaged in antagonistic 21 practices against church members, didn't you? 22 A No. 23 Q You don't consider giving them the finger, 24 which basically means fuck you, an antagonistic 25 practice? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 472 1 A I believe it's an appropriate response to 2 something done to me. 3 Q My question was was it antagonistic? 4 A It was retaliatory. 5 Q Oh, retaliatory. Even better. So you 6 don't deny that you gave the finger to members of 7 church, correct? 8 A No, I don't deny that at all. 9 Q And you also don't deny that you took one 10 of those little pens that had a little red dot that 11 you would point and shine and you shined it right in 12 the direction at church members, didn't you? 13 A Into a camera that wasn't held in someone's 14 eyes, yes. 15 Q You shined it into the church in the 16 direction of church members, correct? 17 A I don't know if the person was church 18 member. I couldn't tell from where I was standing. 19 Q Well, you were down there -- you knew -- so 20 your testimony is that you had no idea that the 21 person you shined that laser light on was not a 22 church member? 23 A I can assume they were, but I don't know 24 that for a fact. 25 THE COURT: Miss Wardell? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 473 1 MR. DEVLAMING: I'm sorry, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. 3 BY MS. WARDELL: 4 Q You had reason to believe that person was a 5 church member? 6 A They might have been. 7 Q And that little light is an antagonistic 8 practice, isn't it? 9 A Being recorded -- 10 Q Sir, I'm not asking you what was done to 11 you. I'm asking about -- 12 A -- what I did to them. 13 Q My question are very simple and they're 14 designed for yeses and no's. My question was don't 15 you consider pointing a red laser beam light into 16 somebody's face or in their direction to be 17 antagonistic? 18 A No. 19 Q Now, you don't consider yourself to be 20 above the law because you're a former Scientologist, 21 do you? 22 A Not at all. 23 Q You consider yourself to be a law-abiding 24 citizen? 25 A Yes, I do. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 474 1 Q And you don't think former Scientologists 2 should be shielded with regards to any future conduct 3 they may have? 4 A I don't understand the question, ma'am. 5 Q Just because you're a former Scientologist 6 doesn't mean that you can go out and do whatever you 7 want, commit a crime, and not be held accountable? 8 A Of course not, whether you're a former 9 Scientologist or not. 10 Q And you think you should be held 11 accountable for your actions? 12 A I believe everyone should. 13 Q Now, you mentioned that Mr. Prince was a 14 good person. Isn't it true that good people make 15 mistakes? 16 A I suppose that's true. 17 Q And isn't it true that good people can 18 violate the law? 19 A I suppose that's true also. 20 Q And you mentioned the Lisa McPherson Trust. 21 Now, that's a for-profit organization, correct? 22 A My understanding is it is, yes. 23 Q In fact, are you familiar with an 24 individual by the name of Robert Minton? 25 A Yes, I am. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 475 1 Q Are you aware that his has personally put 2 over 1.3 million dollars into that trust? 3 A I'm not involved in the financial dealings 4 of the organization. 5 Q I didn't ask you if you were involved -- 6 A I wasn't aware, no. 7 Q I asked you if you were aware of whether or 8 not he put 1.3 million dollars into that trust. 9 A I believe my answer was no. 10 Q See Mr. Minton in the courtroom today? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q He is a member of that trust? 13 A To my understanding, he is. 14 Q See Stacey Brooks in the courtroom today? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q Is she a member of that trust? 17 A Yes, she is. 18 Q See Mark Bunker in the courtroom? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Member of that trust? 21 A As far as I know. 22 Q Now, when you talked about fair game, fair 23 game really is a policy that the church has that 24 says, hey, we're going to punish, if you will, our 25 members of the church based upon our laws and what we KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 476 1 belive, correct? 2 A No. 3 Q Well, is it fair to say that while you're a 4 member of the Church of Scientology, while you're a 5 practicing member in good standing, that under fair 6 game you get treated a certain way if -- let me start 7 over. Is it true that the Church of Scientology has 8 their own internal rules with regards to how a person 9 is to be treated if they're caught doing something 10 wrong? 11 A Yes. 12 Q They like to handle things internally? 13 A Sometimes. 14 Q Okay. So, like, if there was a domestic 15 disputes between to members of the Church of 16 Scientology, they would prefer to handle it within 17 the church and through whatever means they have 18 established and not get the police necessarily 19 involved in that, correct? 20 A I have known that to be the case sometimes. 21 Q So isn't it true that all fair game really 22 means is once you leave you're not afforded the 23 protection of handling things internally within the 24 church? 25 A No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 477 1 Q In other words, you're now fair game to be 2 handled the way anybody else in the United States is 3 handled? 4 A No, that's not correct. 5 Q You weren't at Mr. Prince's home on May 7th 6 of 2000, were you? 7 A May 7th of 2000? No, I don't believe so. 8 That was the day before my birthday. I wouldn't be 9 at his house on -- 10 Q A simple no would suffice. Your weren't in 11 his home on August 6th of 2000, were you? 12 A Not that I can recall. 13 Q And you weren't at his home on August 11th 14 of 2000, were you? 15 A Not that I can recall. 16 MS. WARDELL: Judge, I don't have 17 anything further. 18 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, any 19 redirect? 20 MR. DEVLAMING: Just a couple 21 questions. 22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 24 Q Mr. Oliver, the prosecutor in her 25 cross-examination mentioned the fact that Mr. Minton, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 478 1 Miss Brooks and Mr. Bunker in the courtroom are 2 members of the trust. Are they also considered 3 suppressive persons by the Church of Scientology? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And based upon your previous testimony, 6 would they be subject to this fair game law? 7 A Yes. 8 Q They could be tricked, sued, lied to or 9 destroyed? 10 A Yes. 11 Q That's all I have. 12 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. 13 Do the jurors have any questions of this 14 witness? May this witness be released, sir? 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, he may. 16 THE COURT: All right. Miss Wardell, 17 do you anticipate you may need this witness, 18 or can he be released from his subpoena? 19 MS. WARDELL: He can be released. 20 THE COURT: Sir, you may step down and 21 you are free to leave at this time. 22 Mr. DeVlaming, do you have any other 23 witnesses? You need to approach? Come on up. 24 (WHEREUPON THE FOLLOWING BENCH CONFERENCE WAS HAD) 25 MR. DEVLAMING: I guess I just wanted KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 479 1 to tell you something while the jury is 2 here. I'm going to rest. 3 THE COURT: You're going to rest at 4 this point? 5 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DEVLAMING: So I guess you will 8 have the dialogue with my client. He is not 9 going to testify. I didn't want to rest, 10 until you had the dialogue with him, in 11 front of the jury, and then I'm going to -- 12 THE COURT: I don't intend to do the 13 dialogue in front of the jury. 14 MR. DEVLAMING: No, no, no. I meant 15 you'd have the dialogue -- 16 THE COURT: -- and then you'd rest in 17 front of the jury? 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: I got it. All right. I'll 20 tell you what I'm going to do then. I'm 21 going to send them out. I'm going to send 22 them out, and then I'm going to -- I haven't 23 prepared any jury instructions because I 24 didn't know if we were going to have any 25 extra ones or any of that kind of stuff. At KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 480 1 this point it appears to me maybe we will 2 not, and so I'll just prepare the standard 3 instructions and then we'll hand them out, 4 then we'll have the charge conference and 5 bring them back. I'm going to give them a 6 good half hour. 7 MS. WARDELL: I have a rebuttal 8 witness. 9 THE COURT: You have a rebuttal? Who 10 do you wish to call? 11 MS. WARDELL: Deneen Phillips. 12 THE COURT: As rebuttal? 13 MR. DEVLAMING: Who's she going to 14 rebut? 15 THE COURT: That's what I'm getting 16 ready to ask. 17 MS. WARDELL: She is going to rebut 18 the -- 19 MR. DEVLAMING: She could have been 20 called in the State's case, but -- 21 MS. WARDELL: Let me see how I want to 22 phrase this. She is going to rebut the 23 inference that came out -- 24 THE COURT: I'm going to send the jury 25 out. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 481 1 (WHEREUPON THE BENCH CONFERENCE CONCLUDED) 2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you 3 get to take another break whether you want 4 to or not. I apologize for that. We 5 need -- we're going to need a little while. 6 You all got time to take a smoke, get a 7 snack. It's going to be about a half hour. 8 Okay? 9 (OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 10 THE COURT: First of all, let me ask 11 you. Sir, I have been informed -- I'm 12 speaking to you, Mr. Prince -- that you are 13 at this time choosing not to become a 14 witness in this case. Is that correct, sir? 15 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: And you do understand, sir, 17 that you have the absolute right to testify 18 as a witness in this case, that it is a 19 decision that is yours and yours alone to 20 make, that you, of course, do not have to 21 testify, but you do have the right to do so? 22 You understand that? 23 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, I do, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: And you are at this time 25 choosing to exercise what is your Fifth KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 482 1 Amendment right to remain silent; is that 2 correct, sir? 3 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: And you're doing that of 5 your own free will? 6 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, sir. 7 THE COURT: All right, sir. Thank you 8 very much. 9 Now, rebuttal witness? 10 MS. WARDELL: Judge, Miss Phillips was 11 a witness that I believe I could not call in 12 my case in chief because she talks about 13 marijuana use through time frame of April 7 14 through August 11, over and above the dates 15 charged in the information. 16 I believed in good faith I needed to wait 17 until the, quote, door was open, if you will, 18 i.e, what the Defense was going to cross on and 19 what was going to come out from Mr. Gaston. I 20 think the fact that Mr. Gaston, you know, was 21 impeached with the plant here, the setup here, I 22 had to wait for the Defense to get in front of 23 the jury that Mr. Prince was setup. 24 And specifically she rebuts this fair game, 25 that the whole reason he was arrested was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 483 1 because he was fair game and the church did 2 illegal things or improper things or wrongful 3 tactics to get him arrested. She will put him 4 in possession of marijuana not only on the three 5 dates that information charged, but she puts him 6 voluntarily in possession of it on other dates. 7 That directly rebuts that fair game set him up. 8 And, quite frankly, I think the Defense has 9 now opened the door to the fact that within a 10 week of these two people meeting almost two 11 years ago marijuana was introduced. Well, two 12 years ago -- 13 THE COURT: Which two people? 14 MS. WARDELL: Mr. Prince and 15 Miss Phillips met two years ago, and within 16 a week of them meeting, marijuana was 17 introduced to them by the person that 18 introduced them. Whoever introduced them 19 brought in marijuana. The fact that that 20 happened two years ago before Brian Raftery 21 was mentioned, before Barry Gaston was 22 mentioned, you know, that directly rebuts 23 fair game. 24 Not only -- not only was she doing it then, 25 but she will tell you from the time frame KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 484 1 between April 7 and August 11, even when 2 Barry Gaston wasn't in their home those extra 3 times, she and Mr. Prince smoked marijuana. And 4 that directly rebuts any inference that the 5 church is behind all this. They were doing it 6 on there own. And -- 7 THE COURT: Well, I mean -- 8 MS. WARDELL: Judge, I -- 9 THE COURT: I mean, what you're asking 10 me to do is to allow you to have her come in 11 and basically testify to all the particular 12 marijuana use that took place in the home. 13 Marijuana use as opposed to -- arguably it 14 still is marijuana possession, but I 15 think -- 16 MS. WARDELL: Well, Judge -- 17 THE COURT: Well, actually the 18 information does charge possession on the 19 dates that it was smoked, but it also 20 charges possession because these alleged 21 plants were out on the lanai. 22 MS. WARDELL: It's part and parcel. 23 THE COURT: So she is prepared to 24 testify to those plants were always out on 25 the lanai? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 485 1 MS. WARDELL: Yes, she is. She is 2 going to say that she saw those plants as 3 early as June, and that she and Mr. Prince 4 repeatedly pulled up the smaller ones, but 5 the bigger one was intentionally left, and 6 she will tell you that on May 7 she allowed 7 Barry Gaston and the officer back to the 8 pool lanai and the marijuana plant was seen. 9 I mean -- and she'll tell you that they 10 introduced the word "joint" the first time law 11 enforcement came. That goes to the heart of 12 their defense, who brought up marijuana for the 13 first time. And if mister -- and she'll also 14 tell you that there was -- there was so much 15 marijuana to be smoked in the home that she 16 couldn't remember whether it was kept in the 17 black tin or whether it was kept in the bathroom 18 robe, things of this nature. 19 This is all fair game for the State now. 20 And she will also tell you that on one of the 21 nights some girls from Memphis Tennessee came in 22 town and they brought marijuana. So how does 23 that go back to the trust -- to a member of the 24 church setting him up, that he has other sources 25 of marijuana? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 486 1 Now, what I think she'll also tell you is 2 that the first time she really met Mr. Gaston is 3 that he invited her at the bar out -- he invited 4 her and Mr. Prince at the bar out for a smoke, 5 and that they voluntarily went out for a 6 marijuana joint. Well, you know, that's the 7 carrot in front of his face. Nobody made him go 8 out there and smoke that joint, but I'm entitled 9 argue this after this fair game stuff. 10 THE COURT: Do you want to respond to 11 that? 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Yeah. This is clearly, 13 Judge, an attempt to be able to call the 14 last witness in this case, which means I got 15 to get Gaston back over here. This is not 16 rebuttal. She had an absolute right and 17 ability to call this witness in her case in 18 chief. This isn't rebuttal. This is 19 corroborative of Gaston; it's corroborative 20 of her other witness Crosby. There's not 21 one thing that she could testify to that 22 rebuts a witness that has testified for the 23 Defense. It's clearly outside rebuttal. 24 THE COURT: Give me the things that 25 you're rebutting. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 487 1 MS. WARDELL: You mean the content of 2 what she could testify to? 3 THE COURT: Well, no. The various 4 testimony of the particular witnesses that 5 have already testified that her testimony 6 will now rebut. 7 MS. WARDELL: She's rebutting the 8 theory that Mr. Prince was, quote, set up. 9 That theory didn't come out until the 10 Defense put on it's case. So all this other 11 marijuana use that the Defense opened the 12 door to yesterday I could not have gotten 13 into with Miss Phillips in my case in chief. 14 I had to sit back and wait for them to talk 15 about how the church was involved, how the only 16 reason they're charged right now is because the 17 church, the church, the church. I couldn't have 18 called her in my case in chief. Almost all of 19 her testimony goes to the other marijuana use 20 that was going on. 21 THE COURT: But why couldn't you have 22 called her in your case in chief to testify 23 to the very same things that you had 24 Mr. Gaston -- actually that was in the 25 Defense's case. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 488 1 MS. WARDELL: Right. I didn't call 2 Mr. Gaston, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Let -- just 4 let me think for a minute. All right. 5 MS. WARDELL: I could have called her 6 and then recalled her for a limited area, 7 but I thought that was -- I just didn't -- I 8 didn't think that was practical. 9 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge there's nothing 10 that Gaston has testified to that this 11 witness can rebut. She was -- 12 THE COURT: What about her argument she 13 is rebutting your defense? 14 MR. DEVLAMING: I've never heard of a 15 rebuttal witness -- rebuttal witness means 16 they're rebutting something that is said 17 during the course of the trial that 18 discredits it. You have limited my witness 19 to testify as to anything unlawful, and, in 20 fact, she's brought out the fact he has only 21 done and been instructed to do lawful 22 things. So, you know, I can't argue that 23 Frank Oliver was set up to do unlawful 24 things or to set anybody up. 25 MS. WARDELL: Judge, there is no rule KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 489 1 that says rebuttal is limited to what a 2 specific witness says. Rebuttal is for me 3 to rebut their defense. If they chose to 4 put on a case, they do so at their own 5 peril. They chose to go into fair game. 6 They chose to put out there that the church 7 was behind all this, that the only reason he 8 had possession of marijuana was because of 9 the church, but we know that ain't so, and 10 Deneen Phillips is here to say it. 11 MR. DEVLAMING: They could have called 12 her right after Crosby, Judge. And I'll 13 tell you at depositions, your Honor, that 14 she was there on every time Crosby was, she 15 was there on every time Gaston was, and they 16 could have called her. They failed to do 17 it. This is a tactical move to get the last 18 witness in this case, and it's improper 19 rebuttal. 20 MS. WARDELL: Judge -- 21 THE COURT: All right. I'll rule. 22 Thank you. I'll see you all in about -- 23 we'll have the charge conference at 24 eleven-twenty. 25 (A RECESS WAS HAD) KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 490 1 THE COURT: At this point it is my 2 intent to actually send the jury to lunch 3 and then come back after lunch. But here's 4 what I intend to do. I read the case of 5 Driscoll v. Morris, which is located at 6 114 So.2d 314. It is a Third DCA case out 7 of 1959. Yes, it is a bit dated, but it 8 does state and relevant to this issue: 9 "Generally speaking, rebuttal testimony 10 which is offered by the plaintiff is directed to 11 new matter brought out by evidence of the 12 defendant and does not consist of testimony 13 which should have properly been submitted by the 14 plaintiff in his case. It is not the purpose of 15 rebuttal to add additional facts to those 16 submitted by the plaintiff in his case in chief 17 unless such additional facts are required by the 18 new matter developed by the defendant. If the 19 proffered evidence appears to be cumulative 20 rather than rebuttal, it is within the sound 21 discretion of the judge to allow the admission 22 and the exercise of such discretion will not be 23 disturbed on appeal." It is my -- it goes on to 24 say, however, "... on appeal unless it appears 25 so prejudice -- and I imagine really so KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 491 1 prejudicial -- that the result -- a result as to 2 indicate an abuse of discretion." 3 So I want to -- I want to proffer the 4 testimony of Deneen Phillips. It is, at least 5 in my view, clear to me this was the State's 6 burden and charge here today and this is how 7 they proceeded in their case. 8 They offered the testimony of three 9 witnesses, two officers and a expert relating to 10 the drugs that were allegedly seized in this 11 case. And those experts -- the witnesses 12 testified to the day that Detective Crosby was 13 present, the sight of marijuana and or use of 14 marijuana on the dates he was present. 15 What they did not testify to was anything 16 outside of what the Detective Crosby -- and 17 really what is amounts to the confines of the 18 information in this case. It was not until the 19 Defense's case in chief that we heard about 20 other days as relates particularly to the 21 alleged use of marijuana, and on top of that, of 22 course, the following of the defendant. 23 We talked about a time line that started 24 apparently sometime at least in February and how 25 the defendant had been surveilled for quite a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 492 1 period of time. And arguably the alleged drug 2 use didn't even start or at least didn't begin 3 until sometime around when the investigators 4 began to follow the defendant. 5 Apparently then Miss Phillips is going to 6 testify in some way to rebut those suggestions 7 that the Church of Scientology's investigators 8 were not directly involved with any planting of 9 drugs or anything because some of these things 10 can be found even before Mr. Gaston gets 11 involved in this case. 12 And what else is it that you anticipate you 13 will have her testify to? 14 MS. WARDELL: That she -- that she and 15 Mr. Prince had smoked marijuana before 16 Mr. Gaston was even introduced to them; that 17 even after Mr. Gaston was introduced to them 18 there were times that she and the defendant 19 smoked marijuana that he wasn't even around; 20 that they had other sources of marijuana, so 21 even if you believe Scientology put this 22 there somehow, they had other sources of 23 marijuana, i.e., her friends who came into 24 town that -- 25 THE COURT: Okay. For instance, that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 493 1 one unnerves me. I'm a little concerned 2 about being able to have somebody come in 3 and testify about alleged bad acts of 4 Mr. Prince when some friends came into town, 5 about other sources of marijuana. 6 What the rebuttal evidence must 7 specifically relate to is rebutting the 8 suggestion that the Church of Scientology 9 planted or in some way set up the defendant by 10 placing in his possession marijuana, and 11 specifically or at least especially when the 12 investigators either were around or may have 13 been around. 14 And I'm trying to hear whatever rebuttal 15 testimony you offer towards rebutting specific 16 allegations that were made at least on the 17 Defense's case in chief about the operations of 18 the Church of Scientology and about a setup 19 here. 20 MS. WARDELL: The proffer is probably a 21 good idea, but on that particular occasion 22 the CI was present. The point being, the CI 23 is not the one that's always saying, Here, 24 smoke the marijuana. Their own friends 25 brought it out in the presence of the CI. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 494 1 THE COURT: The CI was there on the day 2 the friends brought the marijuana? 3 MS. WARDELL: Yes. And, Judge, I just 4 would like to point out, although 5 technically the Defense hasn't asked for 6 the, quote, entrapment defense and they're 7 still pondering that, it's certainly come 8 up. 9 THE COURT: They can't ask for it 10 unless they actually assert it, and they 11 must prove it and they did not and they 12 haven't called a witness for that, so 13 they're not going to be able to get it. 14 MS. WARDELL: Well, they -- I think the 15 innuendo is there that he was entrapped by 16 the fact that the Scientologists, you know, 17 got in -- through Barry Gaston, got in there 18 to him. 19 And I think actually Miss -- I expect 20 Miss Phillips to testify that Barry Gaston is 21 the one that first introduced marijuana to them. 22 I don't know whether their position is of 23 bringing that out, but that certainly opens the 24 door to a lot of other areas. 25 But I was going to tell you that a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 495 1 defendant asserting the statutory defense of 2 entrapment initially has the burden to establish 3 lack of predisposition, but as soon as the 4 defendant produces evidence of no 5 predisposition, i.e., that he was set up, the 6 burden shifts to the prosecution to rebut this 7 evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, which it may 8 do by making appropriate and certain inquiry 9 into the conduct of the defendant and presenting 10 evidence of his prior criminal history even 11 though such evidence would normally be -- 12 THE COURT: The problem is that the 13 lack of predisposition has not been 14 established and the defendant would have had 15 to take the stand in order to establish 16 that. 17 MS. WARDELL: Right. 18 THE COURT: So we're not quite there 19 and -- 20 MS. WARDELL: Not quite there, but I 21 just wanted to you to know that that's still 22 out there, but still, I mean, I think the 23 proffer it the best way to go. 24 THE COURT: What time do you want to do 25 this proffer? Is she here now? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 496 1 MS. WARDELL: She is here. And if 2 you're ready to go forward, that's fine. 3 What I was going to say is I'll go ahead and 4 do all my questions, and I'll go slow if you 5 want to be writing them down if there's some 6 that you think are cumulative and some you 7 don't want me to do. 8 THE COURT: That's what I intend to do. 9 MS. WARDELL: Yeah. If you don't mind, 10 I would like to -- 11 THE COURT: Send the jury to lunch. 12 Ask them to be back at one-fifteen. 13 Yeah, bring her in. 14 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 15 Whereupon, 16 DENEEN PHILLIPS, 17 the State's rebuttal witness herein, being first 18 duly sworn upon oath, was questioned and 19 testifies as follows: 20 THE COURT: Please proceed. 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MS. WARDELL: 23 Q Can you turn to the judge and introduce 24 yourself by stating your name and how you're 25 employed. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 497 1 A I am Deneen Phillips and I am employed with 2 the Lisa McPherson Trust. 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry. With what now? 4 THE WITNESS: The Lisa McPherson Trust. 5 THE COURT: With the Lisa McPherson 6 Trust? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MS. WARDELL: And I'm having a hard 10 time hearing you. Is your microphone on? 11 THE COURT: The mike is on. 12 BY MS. WARDELL: 13 Q If you can pull it a little closer. Okay? 14 And what is your salary with the trust? 15 A Three thousand a month. 16 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I'm -- well, I 17 want -- 18 THE COURT: It's a proffer. I don't 19 find it relevant, but let's proceed. 20 BY MS. WARDELL: 21 Q And you're paid by the Trust, correct? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Q And it's Jesse Prince that got you that job 24 with the Trust? 25 A Yes, ma'am. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 498 1 Q And he is Vice President of the Trust? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q He is your fiance? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Q And you share a home together? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you moved -- 8 MS. WARDELL: Judge, for purposes of 9 this, permission to lead her a little bit, 10 and I'll tailor it -- 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 MS. WARDELL: Okay. 13 BY MS. WARDELL: 14 Q You moved to Florida to be with 15 Jesse Prince? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you picked Clearwater because of his 18 job with the trust? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you moved into a home together in 21 approximately February 25th of 2000? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Q That's on Bellair Road? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Q And there was an alarm security system that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 499 1 was installed approximately a month after you moved 2 into that home? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Q And that alarm worked properly? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Your pool area has two separate screen 7 doors that accesses that area from the outside? 8 A Right. 9 Q One of which had damage to it just after 10 you moved in? 11 A Right. 12 Q And that damage was noticeable and large 13 enough that somebody could actually come through that 14 screened in break, if you will? 15 A Yes. 16 Q In other words, you didn't have to open the 17 door. You could come in through the screen break. 18 the break in the screen? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And no effort was made to repair 21 that damage until recently when you had somebody come 22 out and give you an estimate? 23 A I'm sorry? 24 Q No effort was made to repair the damage to 25 the screen door until you recently had somebody come KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 500 1 out and give you an estimate? 2 A Right. 3 Q I want to talk about an individual you 4 believe to be named Rinzy Trinidad. You first met 5 him at Wilson's bar. You don't recall the date; is 6 that correct? 7 A Right. 8 Q And you're not sure who approached who, but 9 it was a friendly conversation, very brief, correct? 10 A He spoke and we walked out the door. 11 Q Right. It was very brief? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You didn't exchange names or phone numbers 14 at that point? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q Okay. And let's skip to the second visit. 17 This would again have been at Wilson's Lounge when 18 you ran into him, correct? 19 A Right. 20 Q And he was friendly? 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q And you kind of hung out and played pool, 23 socialized? 24 A Right. 25 Q There came a point in time where you went KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 501 1 out the back door to smoke marijuana with him, right? 2 A Right. 3 Q And Jesse Prince went too? 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q You were -- is that a yes? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You were invited out back for the purpose 8 of smoking marijuana? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you knew that purpose when you went out 11 back? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And Mr. Prince was present when you were 14 invited to go out back, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you two knew the purpose was to go out 17 and smoke marijuana? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you, in fact, smoked marijuana? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Q Out back at Wilson's Lounge? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Q And Jesse smoked some marijuana out back at 24 Wilson's Lounge? 25 A Yes, ma'am. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 502 1 Q The joint was passed back and forth? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Now, a patron at the bar actually handed 4 Mr. Prince a baggie of marijuana, correct? 5 A Right. 6 Q And he took it? 7 A Yes. 8 Q It was not Rinzy Trinidad that handed him 9 this bag of marijuana? 10 A No, it was Rinzy's friend. 11 Q A person you believed to be his friend? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Because you saw him at the bar? 14 A No, he knew everybody in the bar, so -- 15 Q Right. 16 A -- it was his friend. 17 Q The person that gave the marijuana was at 18 the bar? 19 A Yes. 20 Q But you haven't seen him since, right? 21 A No. 22 Q Only saw him that one night? 23 A Right. 24 Q Okay. Now, following this smoke outside of 25 Wilson's bar, you allowed Rinzy Trinidad to follow KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 503 1 you to your home, correct? 2 A Right. 3 Q And you actually invited him from the bar? 4 While at the bar you actually invited him to your 5 home? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And once at your home you shared drinks? 8 A Right. Him, his girlfriend and Jesse and 9 I. 10 Q And you smoked another joint? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Mr. Prince smoked that joint too? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And I know you don't know the exact date, 15 and that's okay, but this is prior to what you now 16 know to be law enforcement coming to your home with 17 Mr. Trinidad, right? 18 A Right. 19 Q And this joint that was smoked was actually 20 rolled from loose marijuana, right? 21 A Right. 22 Q And do you recall where you got the papers? 23 A They were -- we had them. 24 Q In fact, Mr. Prince is the one that came 25 out with the rolling papers, correct? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 504 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you had those rolling papers because 3 occasionally you and Mr. Prince would smoke 4 marijuana, correct? 5 A Very seldom. 6 Q Well, you previously have given a 7 deposition in this case just a few days ago, right? 8 A Right. 9 Q And in that deposition you testified -- 10 page 38, Counsel -- that you had the marijuana 11 rolling papers because you and Mr. Prince 12 occasionally smoked marijuana? 13 A Yes, very occasionally, very rare. 14 Q Okay. And this was before you ever met 15 Trinidad, right? 16 A Right. 17 Q In fact, you smoked marijuana within a week 18 of meeting Mr. Prince when you met him back in 19 Tennessee for the first time? 20 A Right. 21 Q And the person who provided that marijuana 22 to you had nothing to do with Rinzy Trinidad? 23 A No. 24 Q He was actually a friend of yours? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 505 1 Q And you have no reason to believe that 2 friend is in any way associated with the Church of 3 Scientology? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Okay. The night that you allowed Trinidad 6 to come to your home, you actually took him out to 7 the pool area to smoke the marijuana? 8 A Him and his girlfriend, right. 9 Q Okay. And that was -- there's three ways 10 to get to the pool from your bedroom? 11 A From my -- sorry? 12 Q I'm sorry. Three ways to get to the pool 13 from the inside of your house? 14 A Right. 15 Q The bedroom, the living room and the 16 kitchen? 17 A Right. 18 Q And all of those are sliding glass doors? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And it was in the pool area where you 21 smoked the marijuana? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And your next contact with Mr. Trinidad 24 would have been about a week and a half later? Maybe 25 a week later? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 506 1 A Maybe. 2 Q Okay. If at any point you want to refresh 3 your memory by referring to your deposition, that's 4 absolutely fine. Just tell me you need to take a 5 minute. But you previously stated a few days ago 6 that it was about a week, maybe a week and a half, 7 between the two visits. 8 A Right. 9 Q Okay. And on this visit he actually 10 brought alcohol to your home? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And again marijuana was smoked, correct? 13 A Yes. The marijuana that his friend gave 14 us. 15 Q And Mr. Prince smoked that, right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you smoked it? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And Trinidad smoked it? 20 A And his girlfriend, yes. 21 Q The girlfriend came again? 22 A The day that he brought the liquor we were 23 in the bed and he came by just ready to, as usual, 24 ready to just hang out. 25 Q Okay. And on that particular occasion do KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 507 1 you recall where the marijuana was retrieved from? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Where? 4 A It was out of a little can. 5 Q And who went and got it? 6 A I believe I did. 7 Q You believe you did? 8 A I'm not sure. 9 Q Could you have previously stated at the 10 May 18th deposition that Mr. Prince went and got it 11 from the black tin? 12 A Maybe. I'm not sure. I am not totally 13 sure. 14 Q Do you have the deposition in front of you? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 Q Do you have a copy handy. 17 A No, ma'am, not handy. 18 MS. WARDELL: May I approach the 19 witness, Judge? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 BY MS. WARDELL: 22 Q I would direct your attention to page 44 23 and ask you if you recall whether you previously 24 stated that Mr. Prince went and got the loose 25 marijuana from a black tin. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 508 1 A I think that they also told me that I had a 2 nine-year-old and an eleven-year-old. I was very 3 nervous. 4 Q Did you want to correct the ages? 5 A Yes. You know, I was just nervous. I'm 6 using that, you know, to let you know how nervous I 7 was that day. So I can't just tell you. It was so 8 long ago. 9 Q All right. 10 A So -- 11 Q I missed the significance of the nine- and 12 eleven-year-old. Just because you gave the wrong 13 ages and you want to correct that now? 14 A Yes. One is ten and one is fourteen. 15 Q Okay. 16 A It's just I said that to say, you know -- 17 Q I understand. 18 A -- I can't stick to this. You might. I 19 know you can, but, you know -- 20 Q That was just one statement, correct? 21 A Right. 22 Q And I want you to turn to page 44 and check 23 and see whether or not you told me that Mr. Prince 24 went and retrieved the marijuana from a black tin? 25 A Yes, ma'am, that's what I told you. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 509 1 Q And who rolled that joint? 2 A I believe I did. 3 Q Okay. Again, I'm going you direct you to 4 page 45. Did you previously state that Mr. Prince 5 rolled that joint? 6 A Okay. Yes, ma'am. 7 Q Does that refresh your memory? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 Q And with regards to that marijuana that was 10 smoked on that visit with Trinidad -- and again, I 11 know you don't have your dates, but that visit is 12 what I'm talking about -- did you also previously 13 state that you got the marijuana from your coat 14 pocket? 15 A I got the marijuana from my coat pocket the 16 first day he came back to smoke marijuana. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Because it was in there from that time on. 19 And I got it out of -- 20 Q I'm asking you with regards to this 21 visit -- 22 A With the liquor. 23 Q The second visit with the liquor. 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q Did you previously state that on that visit KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 510 1 you retrieved the marijuana from your coat pocket? 2 A No. I retrieved that marijuana from the 3 can. 4 Q I would ask you to turn your attention to 5 page 35. 6 A Unless I have my, you know -- 7 Q You were asked the question: 8 "When was the next time you saw that baggie 9 of marijuana?" 10 And you answered, "When he gave it to me." 11 I said. "When?" 12 You said, "The next day." 13 And I said "At the house?" 14 You said, "Uh-huh." 15 I said, "Where did you put it?" 16 You said, "In my coat pocket." 17 A Right. 18 Q Question: "Did you ever smoke it?" 19 "Yes." 20 "When was that?" 21 Answer: "Rinzy came by maybe a week later 22 and asked do we have some of that stuff." 23 A That's right. 24 Q Question: "And you went to your coat 25 pocket and got it out or where did you go to get it?" KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 511 1 A Yes, ma'am. You're right. Yes, ma'am. 2 Q You said, "It was in my coat pocket"? 3 A Uh-huh. 4 Q So basically, now I have three potential 5 sources for that marijuana. One is your coat pocket, 6 one is Mr. Prince going to the black tin, and the 7 third and the other one being that you went to the 8 black tin? 9 A Right. 10 Q You can't remember which? 11 A Right. I'm not going to -- 12 Q Is that because there was so much loose 13 marijuana around that you just can't remember where 14 you stored it when? 15 A No. I just remember when he came back the 16 next -- his next visit he came back and he asked did 17 we have anymore of that marijuana, and I got it out 18 the coat pocket. It never went back into my coat 19 pocket after that. 20 Q One way or the other, whether you got it 21 from the coat pocket or whether he got it from the 22 tin, you smoked a joint at that visit? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And that includes Mr. Prince holding the 25 cigarette and smoking it as well? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 512 1 A Yes. 2 Q Now I want to talk about Mr. Trinidad's 3 third visit to your home. Okay? This is when you 4 had some out-of-town company, some friends from 5 Memphis? 6 A I remember -- I'm not saying it's the third 7 visit, but I will tell you that I had visitors from 8 out of town, yes, and he was -- 9 Q Okay. Regardless of what count visit it 10 is, that's the incident, the night I want to talk 11 about, Okay? 12 A Okay. 13 Q All right. Trinidad was invited over? 14 A Right. 15 Q And your girlfriends were already there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And marijuana was at your home? 18 A Well, one of my friends had marijuana, yes. 19 Q And marijuana was smoked by yourself? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And your friends? 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q And Mr. Prince? 24 A Right, and Mr. Trinidad. 25 Q And Mr. Trinidad. And that marijuana was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 513 1 marijuana that was provided by your girlfriends? 2 A Yes, I would believe that one was. 3 Q And after smoking that joint you all left 4 to go to a bar or restaurant-type thing and then you 5 actually came back to your home, correct? 6 A Right. 7 Q And then at that point a second joint was 8 smoked? 9 A Right. 10 Q And that would have been -- Mr. Prince 11 smoked that joint, that second one? 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Can we have a date? 13 MS. WARDELL: She wasn't able to date 14 any of these. 15 THE WITNESS: I would say -- 16 MS. WARDELL: Yes? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MS. WARDELL: 19 Q Okay. And you actually smoked it outside 20 by the pool, right? 21 A Right. 22 Q And at that time a marijuana plant was 23 outside at the pool area? 24 A Yes, I think it was. I think so, yes. 25 Q Okay. Now, I want to talk to you about the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 514 1 first time that Mitch came to your home. You know 2 Mitch is a the member of law enforcement? 3 A Right. 4 Q Now again, I know you're not sure of the 5 dates, but that's what I want to talk about is his 6 first visit. Okay? 7 A Okay. 8 Q All right. Trinidad was present as well? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And you all -- I think, some beer was 11 offered or served? 12 A Right. 13 Q And do you recall marijuana being brought 14 out? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Q And actually I think you're the one that 17 went and got it that time? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 Q And it was stored in that same black box? 20 A Yes, ma'am. It was the same that Rinzy 21 gave us. It was his friend, sorry. 22 Q The person you believed to be a friend? 23 A That I know was his friend, yes. 24 Q Other than that fact that he was in the bar 25 and socialized with you all, what makes you think KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 515 1 they knew each other? 2 A Because he was friendly with the people in 3 the bar. He knew them much better than we did. 4 Q But you only saw him on that one occasion, 5 right? 6 A The guy? 7 Q Right. The guy who handed you the 8 marijuana. 9 A Yes. 10 Q And I think you're the one that rolled the 11 joint in front of law enforcement? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And you all smoked it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Including Mr. Prince? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And at this visit you allowed Mitch, which 18 is law enforcement, into your pool area? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And the marijuana plant was there at that 21 time? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Q And at that time, unbeknownst to you, law 24 enforcement saw it, but you know Mitch saw it? In 25 other words, you knew Mitch was aware it was there, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 516 1 you just didn't realize Mitch was law enforcement? 2 A Mitch never mentioned to me about a 3 marijuana plant. 4 Q Right. He didn't necessarily mention it, 5 but -- 6 A It was out there, yes, ma'am. 7 Q And he was out there? 8 A All I can say is it was out there. I don't 9 know what Mitch thought. 10 Q It wasn't concealed or hidden? 11 A No, ma'am. 12 Q Okay. Let's talk about your second visit 13 with Mitch. And again, you don't know the dates, but 14 it's close in time to Mr. Prince's arrest? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Q And same thing, Trinidad and Mitch stopped 17 by? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Now, on this visit no marijuana was smoked? 20 A No. 21 Q You were actually out watering the plants 22 in the pool area? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And Mitch was in the pool area? 25 A Right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 517 1 Q At this point he commented on just your 2 plants in general, that you had a knack with plants 3 or something to that effect? 4 A Right, uh-huh. 5 Q And he observed your plants? 6 A Right. 7 Q And the marijuana plant would have been 8 there for him to observe? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 Q Now, you've known all along that it was a 11 marijuana plant? 12 A After awhile, yeah. 13 Q Well, more specifically -- 14 A As it grew. 15 Q You knew it was marijuana. Initially I 16 believe you said in the spring, but then you wanted 17 to clarify you were thinking June? 18 A Right. 19 Q Sometime late spring or earlier you knew 20 that plant was marijuana? 21 A In June. 22 Q June? 23 A July. 24 Q And you had a sprinkler system that watered 25 it when it watered all the other plants? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 518 1 A Well, it's a little -- there was a 2 container there all along and the plant started 3 growing out of it. It wasn't my plant. It was 4 something that was left there, I believe to be the 5 rubber -- dead rubber tree that they just left, you 6 know. 7 Q The question is it got watered through the 8 sprinkler system? 9 A I would say, yes. 10 Q And -- 11 A If it got watered. 12 Q And it was in the sun? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And Mr. Prince knew it was there? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you chose to let it grow? 17 A Yes. There was a whole lot of other ones 18 that we did not choose let grow. And we didn't let 19 them grow. I grow plants. 20 Q Well, let's talk about the ones you chose 21 not to let them grow. Those were smaller ones, 22 right? 23 A Yes, they were just -- if you look -- as I 24 started working, I wasn't out there a whole lot in my 25 lanai a lot. So you can go out there maybe on the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 519 1 weekend or whatever and there is another one, and 2 Jesse would just throw them away. I don't know where 3 he put them. I threw mine in the garbage. 4 Q Okay. So my question was the ones you 5 threw away, either you or Mr. Prince threw away, were 6 smaller marijuana plants? 7 A Right. 8 Q And this bigger one you let grow? 9 A Right. 10 Q And both you and Mr. Prince are on your 11 deed? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Q Okay. And is it fair to say Mr. Prince 14 pays the mortgage? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Q And he uses the pool area? 17 A Yes. I pay the mortgage also. 18 Q Okay. You pay it jointly? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And you said earlier that he threw 21 them away, but more specifically they were thrown in 22 the garbage, right? 23 A I threw the ones -- I went out once and 24 pulled them out of some plants that was out there and 25 threw mine in the garbage as I throw eveyr other weed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 520 1 in the garbage. 2 Q Okay. Now, at the time you threw this 3 marijuana plant in the garbage you had reason to 4 believe that Scientology was following either you or 5 Mr. Prince, correct? 6 A I know it, yes. 7 Q And you also had reasons to believe that 8 they were rummaging through your garbage? 9 A They had in Tennessee, yes. 10 Q You had reason to believe they might be 11 doing it here in Pinellas County as well? 12 Certainly -- 13 A They could do what they wanted to do. 14 Q But you wouldn't put is past them? 15 A I'm sorry? 16 Q You wouldn't put it past them? 17 A No, not at all. 18 Q Now, during this time frame you, never 19 called the police to talk about the growing marijuana 20 that was springing up, did you? 21 A No, ma'am. 22 Q And during this time frame were you 23 aware -- actually during -- what did you have now, 24 about a two-year relationship with Mr. Prince? 25 A Yeah, well, almost two years. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 521 1 Q And you know Mr. Minton through the Church, 2 right? I mean, through the trust, right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you're aware that Mr. DeVlaming has 5 represented members of that trust? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And at any point when these marijuana 8 plants were springing up, did you call Mr. DeVlaming? 9 A No. 10 Q And are you aware that a private 11 investigator has been hired by the trust for 12 different reasons? 13 A Say that again. I'm sorry. 14 Q Have you ever heard the name Ray Emmons? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Q And you're aware that he is an investigator 17 not only that was used in this case but that was also 18 used by the trust for other cases? 19 A I don't have knowledge of that. I have 20 been with the trust almost four months. I'm an 21 optician. I don't -- I just started with them, so 22 I'm just finding out that Ray is an investigator, 23 yes. But not in the past I didn't know Ray or what 24 he did. 25 Q Although your job at the trust has only KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 522 1 been a couple of months, Mr. Prince has worked with 2 the trust for quite sometime? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Q And neither you or Mr. Prince called in a 5 private investigator to check out why these plants 6 were springing up? 7 A I didn't, no, ma'am. 8 Q And to your knowledge, as an individual 9 that you live with on daily basis, Mr. Prince didn't 10 either? 11 A To my knowledge, I don't know. 12 Q And is it fair to say that you and 13 Mr. Prince called this marijuana pets plants -- these 14 marijuana plants, quote, pets? 15 A I kept one, that one. 16 Q And you called it your pet? 17 A No, I never called it anything. 18 Q Okay. Did you ever hear Mr. Prince refer 19 to it as a, quote, pet? 20 A No. 21 Q Both times that Mitch, who you now know is 22 law enforcement, came to your home and saw the pool 23 area, Mr. Prince was present? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And there were times between April 7 an KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 523 1 August 6 that you and Mr. Prince smoked marijuana 2 when Trinidad was not present? 3 A There might have been an occasion. 4 Q And you had access to marijuana other than 5 that which was provided to you that night at Wilson's 6 by the person you believed to have been a friend -- 7 A No. That was from the same. 8 Q During that entire time frame? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Well, we've already talked about your 11 girlfriend bringing some. 12 A Right. And that same night Trinidad, 13 Rinzy, whatever his name is, had marijuana too. He 14 didn't just go mooching around. He brought liquor. 15 He brought marijuana. It was times where we didn't 16 answer the phone because he is -- I have to work. I 17 have to get up at seven in the morning to get to 18 work. I work in surgery. I can't party, you know, 19 when he wants to call and want to party. So we would 20 look on the ID box and we wouldn't even answer the 21 phone. 22 There are times that he wants to party or 23 whatever and come by, and there was one particular 24 case for the 4th of July we only wanted the people 25 that we worked with to be at our house, not Rinzy KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 524 1 because he definitely wasn't in our crowd like that. 2 So we told him we didn't have any -- we wasn't having 3 a cookout just to keep him from showing up. This guy 4 would call all the time. 5 Q Okay. My question was simply this: 6 Mr. Trinidad wasn't your sole source, if you will, of 7 marijuana. You got it from places other than 8 Trinidad? 9 A I got it from the guy in the bar. 10 Q And your friends? 11 A No, they didn't leave me any marijuana or 12 anything like that. She smoked a joint. 13 Q And you participated in that? 14 A Exactly. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And they were at my house maybe a day and a 17 half, two days and then flew out. 18 Q And prior to ever meeting Mr. Trinidad you 19 and Mr. Prince smoked marijuana? 20 A I have, yes. 21 Q And certainly Trinidad would not have been 22 the supplier of that marijuana? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. 25 MS. WARDELL: That's all I have, Judge. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 525 1 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, did you wish 2 to participate? 3 MR. DEVLAMING: Just a few questions. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 7 Q Miss Phillips, the relevant dates in this 8 case are May 7, August 6 and August 11. If I could 9 ask you, May 7 is the date that Mr. Trinidad brought 10 the police officer the first time, okay? 11 A Yes. 12 Q All right. On that date what was the 13 source of the marijuana that was smoked? 14 A That came from the guy at the bar. 15 Q Who was a friend of? 16 A Rinzy. 17 Q All right. And who's idea was it to bring 18 out the smoke on that date? 19 A Barry's. 20 Q Barry's. Barry Gaston's? 21 A Right. 22 Q All right. Now, on August 6 was the date 23 that once again Trinidad and Mr. Detective Crosby 24 came by and there was no marijuana smoking that day I 25 don't believe, but there was a plant on the lanai? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 526 1 A Right. 2 Q Okay. Did you plant that plant? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Did Jesse plant that plant? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Do you know -- well, let me ask you this: 7 Did you -- well, do you know how it got there? 8 A No, sir. We joked about maybe the previous 9 owners or something. It was just, what is this, you 10 know? Especially that little one right there. 11 But -- and there were little things that they left. 12 So that happened to be in their pot, so we just joked 13 that their kids -- because they had kids too, you 14 know. 15 Q Okay. Now, of the plants that were on the 16 lanai, were any of them ever thrown out? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Pulled up and thrown out? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did any of -- were there any other 21 marijuana plants that would thereafter grow back in 22 some plants? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Including the one that was in this pot with 25 the dead rubber tree plant that is Defendant's NO. 3? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 527 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. Did you plant that plant that 3 was later taken into evidence as Defendant's Exhibit 4 NO. 3? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Did -- to your knowledge, did Mr. Prince 7 plant that plant? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q And would your answer be the same as to 10 August 11 when they actually arrested Mr. Prince, as 11 far as that singular plant on the porch, did you at 12 any time plant that plant? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Did Mr. Prince plant that plant? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Is there access to the lanai that somebody, 17 if they came from the street, could get to and plant 18 it if they wanted to? 19 A Yes, sir. Even if the screens weren't 20 weather worn, it's not like there's locks on my 21 doors. You can just open them. Each one, they're 22 not locked or anything. They are just normal screen 23 doors. You can't lock them. You can come in any 24 time. 25 Q In relation to the 25th of February 2000, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 528 1 when you came to that house, how much time went by 2 before you realized that there was anything growing 3 of an illegal nature? 4 A Maybe in June, early spring. No, late 5 spring. It had to be later in the spring because we 6 didn't get there until the end of February, March, 7 April. I will say May, June. 8 Q But you can say, under oath, that neither 9 you nor Jesse planted that marijuana? 10 A Yes, sir, we did not plant that marijuana. 11 Q Okay. 12 MR. DEVLAMING: That's all. 13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, 14 ma'am. 15 Jury instruction 1.02, standard 16 instruction, nothing to be changed on that, I 17 would say. 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Correct. 19 THE COURT: 2.01 also standard. 2.02, 20 the only amendment to that is to place the 21 defendant's name in there and the actual 22 nature of the offense. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Mine has his name. 24 THE COURT: No, I'm saying the only 25 thing that was amended about it in this KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 529 1 original form is I added his name and the 2 offense, so that's also standard. 3 2.03, standard, nothing about that. 4 Now, 2.04, do you all -- up through five, I 5 think is standard. I think 2.06 came up in the 6 testimony -- not testimony. Number six came out 7 in the testimony; is that fair to say, 8 Miss Wardell? 9 MS. WARDELL: Yeah, I think six, seven 10 and eight. 11 MR. DEVLAMING: That's fine. 12 THE COURT: Number nine -- 13 MR. DEVLAMING: Does not apply. 14 THE COURT: -- does not apply. And -- 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Number ten does not 16 apply. 17 THE COURT: -- ten does not apply. So 18 we'll take nine and ten out. 19 The defendant not testifying, shall I read 20 that, sir? 21 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir, both 22 paragraphs. 23 THE COURT: All right. And then the 24 defendant's statements. There were 25 statements alleged to have been made by him. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 530 1 Shall I read that? 2 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, Judge, I don't -- 3 I don't -- I'm not asking for it only 4 because I think this applies to Mirandised 5 statements. 6 THE COURT: True. 7 MR. DEVLAMING: These were not 8 Mirandised, so -- 9 MS. WARDELL: I don't care. 10 THE COURT: Not read. 2.05 rules for 11 deliberation is standard. 2.07, the 12 cautionary instruction is standard. Now, 13 2.08 is amended because the first two 14 paragraphs in 2.08 tend to relate to 15 lessers. There is no lesser here. I didn't 16 give you the actual 2.08. I gave you just 17 the amended portion. That's only because my 18 computer's only got the amended. I can tell 19 you what it says. You want me to print that 20 up for -- 21 MR. DEVLAMING: No. You're right. 22 THE COURT: It's amended. And then 23 2.09 is also standard. 24 Now, the one that we need to talk about 25 really is the possession charge. I added the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 531 1 defendant's name, and, of course, we changed it 2 to certain drugs, chemicals substances are known 3 as controlled substances. Marijuana is a 4 controlled substance. 5 Jesse Prince, Jr., possessed a certain 6 substance; that substance was marijuana. Jesse 7 Prince, Jr., had knowledge of the presence of 8 the substance. Then to possess is defined -- do 9 we need to -- I imagine the State is asking for 10 constructive and/or actual. 11 MS. WARDELL: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. So we shall 13 read then A, B and C? 14 MR. DEVLAMING: Correct. 15 THE COURT: Now, note to judge, give 16 these next paragraphs if relevant, if 17 applicable. Do you all both want mere 18 proximity to a thing is not sufficient to 19 establish control over that thing when the 20 thing is not in a place over which the 21 person has control? 22 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. 23 MS. WARDELL: I don't see how that's 24 relevant, but -- 25 THE COURT: I shall read it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 532 1 Constructive possession means the thing 2 that -- the thing is in a place over which 3 the person has control or in which the 4 person has concealed it. I shall read that. 5 Seems to me that that's part of what we are 6 talking about here. 7 Then the next one, if a thing is in a place 8 over which the person does not have control, in 9 order to establish constructive possession the 10 state must prove the person's, one, control over 11 the thing; two, the knowledge that the thing was 12 within the person's presence; and, three, the 13 knowledge of its illicit nature. I think that's 14 part of the defense here, so I believe I should 15 also read that. 16 Any comment on that? 17 MR. DEVLAMING: You're right. 18 THE COURT: Okay. State? Next one 19 possession may be joint, that is, two or 20 more persons may jointly have possession of 21 an article, exercises control over it, and 22 it seems to me that's going to be what the 23 State's going to argue, so there we go. 24 I'll think that should be read. 25 And then the next one, if a person has KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 533 1 exclusive possession of of a thing, knowledge of 2 its presence is inferred, and if the person does 3 not have exclusive possession, knowledge may not 4 be inferred -- or assumed rather. Okay? 5 MR. DEVLAMING: Right. 6 THE COURT: Seems to me that should be 7 read. Now, there's a note to the judge, and 8 here's the question, whether or not, 9 Mr. DeVlaming, you're going to be requesting 10 this. It says here, If the defendant seeks 11 to show a lack of knowledge as to the nature 12 of the particular drug, an additional 13 instruction may be required. I haven't read 14 Medlin. I need to read it, but are you 15 going to be asking for that? You need to 16 look at it? 17 MR. DEVLAMING: Yep. 18 THE COURT: All right. Tell me after 19 lunch. And this is -- one second. Anything 20 else? Did you find that note, 893.13(1)(g)? 21 MS. WARDELL: I don't have a (g), 22 Judge. 23 THE COURT: I don't either. Let me 24 check something. Okay. That's been removed 25 from the updated portion of the instruction. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 534 1 MR. DEVLAMING: You mean number two? 2 THE COURT: Yeah. There is no number 3 two. It's been removed. I don't find it. 4 Do you all find it in your book? 5 MR. DEVLAMING: No, it's not. 6 THE COURT: All right. Now, does the 7 book still talk about Medlin? Does the book 8 still have a note to the court. I'm not 9 looking at the book. I'm looking at the 10 computer version. The updated version I 11 have doesn't even have that. 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Actually my 2000 book 13 or 2001 -- 14 THE COURT: Doesn't have it? 15 MR. DEVLAMING: No. It has both. It 16 has one and two. The 893.13(1)(g) and the 17 other one. 18 THE COURT: Does it say 893.13(1)(g)? 19 Do you find a 1(g)? 20 MR. DEVLAMING: No. 21 MS. WARDELL: I think that that new 22 case law about the state proving knowledge 23 that paragraph that has the one, two and 24 three that the Defense wants took the place 25 of what Medlin needed to accomplish. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 535 1 Because you already said that I got to prove 2 the control, knowledge and the knowledge of 3 the illicit nature. That's that third 4 prong. 5 MR. DEVLAMING: I'll run down to the 6 library, Judge, as soon as our break comes. 7 THE COURT: All right, you all. I let 8 the jury out until one-fifteen? 9 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: Okay. So it's now 11 twelve twenty-five. We have until 12 one twenty-five, and how much time do you 13 think you all need for closings? 14 MS. WARDELL: What is your ruling on -- 15 THE COURT: Oh, I'll try to ferret out 16 some of those questions before I come back. 17 Okay? Now, how much time you all think you 18 need for closing. 19 MR. DEVLAMING: Forty-five minutes. 20 MS. WARDELL: Wow. 21 THE COURT: That's a lot of time. 22 Forty-five? 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 24 THE COURT: Do you need forty-five? 25 MS. WARDELL: I don't need it but I'll KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 536 1 take it. 2 THE COURT: All right. I'll tell them 3 it will be an hour and a half for closing. 4 MS. WARDELL: And I just would like an 5 opportunity to argue some of points on the 6 rebuttal. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't you do 8 that now. 9 MS. WARDELL: If you want to take it 10 category by category, the questions about 11 her employment, I wouldn't have brought that 12 out in my case in chief. Like I said, I 13 limited it to the officer's observations 14 those three days and it didn't involve her. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Say that again. 16 You were just going to limit it to what now? 17 MS. WARDELL: The question about her 18 being employed by the McPherson Trust, I 19 think that goes to her credibility and bias 20 in light of the issues raised by the defense 21 that this is basically the trust versus the 22 Scientology, and she is a member and not 23 only a member but now she's on salary at 24 $3,000 a month by that very trust. I 25 certainly wouldn't have asked that question KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 537 1 in my case in chief had I called her. 2 THE COURT: Do you get to ask that 3 question now since you are calling her on 4 your rebuttal and you're talking about her 5 bias? 6 MS. WARDELL: Right, well -- 7 THE COURT: I mean, you can't call a 8 person for the purpose of impeachment. So 9 what's the purpose of that question? 10 MS. WARDELL: Well, although I can't 11 call her solely for that purpose. If some 12 does exists, I'm entitled to show it. I 13 can't call a witness solely to present 14 impeach -- to impeach -- 15 THE COURT: Here's what I would prefer 16 that you do. Well, I'll tell you what, 17 that's fine. Go ahead. 18 MS. WARDELL: All right. I mean, in 19 other words, had I called her in my case in 20 chief that wouldn't have been an issue 21 because this whole Trust versus Scientology 22 wouldn't have been raised yet, but I am 23 entitled to impeach my own witness. I just 24 can't call them solely for that reason. But 25 anyway -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 538 1 THE COURT: There's no question you are 2 entitled to impeach your witness. You can't 3 call them solely for that, but if you call 4 the witness and the first thing you ask her 5 is an impeaching question, the question 6 would then raise the question I have in my 7 mind: What has she done to show the bias 8 that you're attempting to establish? 9 MS. WARDELL: Okay. I'll throw it and 10 move it to the end. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 MS. WARDELL: I'll be happy to move it 13 to the end after she says that Rinzy is the 14 one that introduced the marijuana. That -- 15 the questions about the alarm system didn't 16 become relevant until the Defense brought up 17 the theory that the marijuana was planted. 18 In my case in chief I don't care if she has 19 an alarm. 20 THE COURT: Well, here's the question: 21 Is the alarm system on the lanai? 22 MS. WARDELL: Well -- 23 THE COURT: Well, is it? I didn't hear 24 any testimony to that. 25 MS. WARDELL: Well, certainly I'm KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 539 1 allowed to argue that if you believe between 2 June and August somebody was coming in and 3 planting this marijuana wouldn't you have 4 done something to take care about it? And 5 actually I know the answer to that. 6 The answer to those were the sealed 7 portions of Miss Phillips' testimony, and as a 8 courtesy to Miss Phillips I didn't ask those 9 questions in the presence of some of the parties 10 that were here because of the concerns that were 11 raised, but I know where the alarm systems are, 12 and I'll be happy to have her say where they 13 are, but -- 14 THE COURT: Well, are they on the 15 lanai? 16 MS. WARDELL: On alarm -- you want me 17 to tell you right now? 18 THE COURT: Yeah. 19 MS. WARDELL: One -- the alarm from the 20 sliding glass bedroom door doesn't. 21 THE COURT: On the door -- let me be 22 real clear about my understanding of where 23 the evidence heads here. Everything is out 24 on the lanai, so access to all of the 25 planted drugs allegedly took place on the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 540 1 lanai. Are you telling me that the screened 2 doors on the lanai have alarms? 3 MS. WARDELL: No. But what I'm telling 4 you is here these people sleep in a bedroom 5 where a sliding glass door separates them 6 between that and the lanai. If you think 7 somebody's creeping in through your broken 8 screen door and you sleep with only a piece 9 of glass that separates you and you don't do 10 anything to make it more secure? That's a 11 valid argument, Judge. For three months -- 12 THE COURT: And what does that rebut? 13 MS. WARDELL: That rebuts the fact that 14 they were set up. If they were set up, do 15 something about it. 16 THE COURT: Like what? Tell me what 17 evidence came out that that particular point 18 that you are at this time making rebuts. It 19 rebuts what? It is an argument that you're 20 attempting to make, but it doesn't rebut any 21 previous testimony. 22 MS. WARDELL: It rebuts the testimony 23 from Mr. Oliver that this whole thing was 24 fair game. It rebuts the testimony from 25 Gaston that they followed him, and followed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 541 1 him, and followed him and set this up. It 2 rebuts the defense theory. Yeah, I got -- 3 THE COURT: So the fact that they 4 didn't do more -- I see. I think I 5 understand now. I hear you if this is what 6 I'm getting from you, if they were really 7 concerned about being followed, they would 8 have done some -- especially since they had 9 the plants -- 10 MS. WARDELL: Something -- 11 THE COURT: Let me finish. 12 MS. WARDELL: Sorry. 13 THE COURT: Especially since allegedly 14 these plants were being placed on -- and 15 they had reason to believe that somebody was 16 putting marijuana on the lanai, that then 17 they should have and maybe would have done 18 more to protect themselves or they were 19 placed on notice of the fact that somebody 20 was trying to set them up? Is that it? 21 MS. WARDELL: Something, Judge, during 22 that three-month period where -- they keep 23 interjecting the kids into this case. 24 THE COURT: I got it. All right. I 25 got it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 542 1 MR. DEVLAMING: At some point you would 2 think do something. 3 THE COURT: Okay. I understand. 4 MS. WARDELL: Don't just let the person 5 in. And the fact -- 6 THE COURT: Might I suggest to you that 7 maybe -- well, might I suggest that you ask 8 maybe just that question? I mean, I truly 9 believe in the direct approach because I 10 don't understand things unless I get them 11 sometimes. And it seems to me there's an 12 easier way to just ask it. You know, why 13 didn't you just do that? 14 MS. WARDELL: I did, but I have to set 15 it up. I have to set up that she had some 16 things in place -- 17 THE COURT: I gotcha. 18 MS. WARDELL: -- but she didn't take 19 advantage of them. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MS. WARDELL: And I did ask that 22 question. And the same thing about the 23 screen door. You're going to tell me that 24 you knew you had a rip in the screen door 25 large enough for somebody to come through it KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 543 1 and you did nothing about it, yet you 2 thought somebody was slipping in planting 3 marijuana on your lanai? 4 THE COURT: Well, except for the point 5 she was making that the screen door doesn't 6 lock. So you don't really have to have it 7 ripped. 8 MS. WARDELL: It's still more of a -- 9 it's a security risk. And we're not talking 10 about a random member of the public. You're 11 talking about a former Scientologist who's 12 now a member of the trust. He certainly 13 knows and is aware of the supposed tactics 14 out there. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MS. WARDELL: Okay? So that was my 17 reason for putting that one in there. You 18 know, the marijuana used at the bar on the 19 second visit with Mr. Trinidad, I think that 20 speaks for itself. 21 THE COURT: Well, what does it speak 22 to? 23 MS. WARDELL: Well, it speaks to the 24 fact that she says that a random white male 25 patron at the bar gave them marijuana and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 544 1 that they voluntarily went outside to smoke 2 the marijuana. Voluntarily going outside to 3 smoke marijuana isn't the same as being set 4 up because of who you are. 5 She clearly said, "We knew before we went 6 outside it was for the purpose of smoking 7 marijuana." They weren't tricked to go into 8 some little room and then somebody whipped out a 9 joint. 10 THE COURT: Anybody actually said -- 11 did anybody actually testify, has there any 12 particular statements been made, that 13 Mr. Gaston, because he continued to take the 14 Fifth on this, was providing marijuana? And 15 the only person, frankly, that I believe 16 will testify to that is this person you're 17 getting ready to call. So the point really 18 of her testimony would be to rebut the 19 potential suggestion that somebody gave 20 Mr. Prince the marijuana as -- or maybe -- 21 MS. WARDELL: Well, I believe that the 22 inference was out there on the 23 cross-examination of Gaston, and the 24 inference is surely out there now that we've 25 heard what Mr. Oliver had to say, the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 545 1 Scientologists will stop at nothing, 2 including providing marijuana. 3 And if Miss Phillips is going to say that 4 this random individual at the bar gave it, 5 that's fine. That's not Mr. Trinidad. She 6 thinks it's connected to him, and that's fine. 7 Let the Defense argue that. Let the Defense 8 argue that Trinidad gave them marijuana. 9 But, I mean, the bottom line is he could 10 take it or he didn't have to take it. And he 11 the whole point is they went outside knowing 12 that the point, the purpose, was to smoke the 13 marijuana. They weren't led to a room and then 14 it came out. 15 It was very clearly stated, "You knew 16 before you went out there what you were going to 17 do?" 18 "Yes, ma'am." 19 Keep going? 20 THE COURT: Yeah. 21 MS. WARDELL: The Defense several times 22 in opening and through both of my officers 23 crossed about, well, you didn't find any 24 rolling papers when you performed the search 25 of the warrant, you didn't find any KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 546 1 paraphernalia, you didn't find any drying 2 materials -- 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MS. WARDELL: -- you didn't find any of 5 these things. 6 THE COURT: I get that one. 7 MS. WARDELL: The defendant provided 8 the rolling papers. 9 THE COURT: I got it. Let's move on. 10 MS. WARDELL: The fact they smoked 11 marijuana before they ever even knew 12 Trinidad or even the fact that it's 13 introduced within a week of these two people 14 meeting each other. 15 THE COURT: And why is that important? 16 MS. WARDELL: That's important because 17 there's no way they can in any way link 18 Trinidad, Scientology or Raftery to the 19 person that they accepted that marijuana 20 from. That just goes to the heart of, you 21 weren't set up. You wanted to smoke it. 22 You smoked it in the past and you smoked it 23 again. And if you're so worried about being 24 set up and followed, why do you take 25 marijuana from a female that you meet within KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 547 1 a week? 2 The second visit to the home, Judge, that's 3 really important. It's important because during 4 her depo and even today -- 5 THE COURT: The second visit of whom? 6 Mitch or Trinidad? 7 MS. WARDELL: The second visit of 8 Trinidad where she says here that she went 9 and got the marijuana, then I reminded her 10 to go back to her depo, and she told me 11 Mr. Prince got the marijuana from the black 12 box. And then I showed her another point in 13 the depo where we were clearly talking about 14 that event where she said she got it out of 15 her coat pocket. 16 Why is that relevant? That's just more 17 marijuana. It just suggests that you had 18 marijuana in the house from a source other than 19 the person at the bar that gave it to you. At 20 some point that little bag of marijuana has got 21 to run out, and she talks about an awful lot of 22 joints. And I'll ask her, if you allow me to 23 call her -- in the depo she described it as a 24 small baggie of marijuana, and I should have 25 been more clear on that. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 548 1 THE COURT: Let me ask you this: I'm 2 still missing where in the testimony it came 3 out, and you keep talking about the 4 inference. Tell me where the inference was 5 drawn that Mr. Gaston is the one who 6 actually provided this marijuana. I'm just 7 trying to figure out which witness gave that 8 testimony. 9 Now, I can tell you this much, I do recall 10 Mr. DeVlaming asking questions of Mr. Crosby 11 like, "Would you use that person again?" And I 12 understand that that might in some way indicate 13 that he was not doing something legal. And the 14 defendant continued to -- the witness, rather, 15 continued to take the Fifth. That too suggests 16 that he was not doing something legal. 17 But where is it and what testimony was 18 there that he, not the defendant but the 19 witness, was doing something -- was not doing 20 something legal? 21 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, first of all, 22 Miss Phillips, once I start -- 23 THE COURT: Well, see that's the point 24 thought. She is a rebuttal witness. 25 MS. WARDELL: I understand that, but KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 549 1 she is going to say it, so once she says 2 it -- 3 THE COURT: All right. But that's -- 4 we got to get to the point of it having 5 already been said so that she can be called. 6 MS. WARDELL: I understand. But -- 7 okay. Mr. DeVlaming stated in opening 8 statements, "every day for three months," 9 and he pointed to the 185 days -- "every day 10 for three months nothing. Nobody's going to 11 say he cultivated marijuana, nobody's going 12 to say he watered marijuana, nobody's going 13 to say he touched marijuana." And he asked 14 that question of law enforcement on 15 cross-examination: 16 "Did you see Mr. Prince touch that plant?" 17 "No." 18 "Did you see Mr. Prince touch that plant?" 19 "No." 20 "Did you see Mr. Prince, you know, water 21 that plant? 22 "No." 23 All of this goes to his knowledge of the 24 illicit nature of the substance, all of it. 25 THE COURT: I got it. Let's move on. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 550 1 MS. WARDELL: You know, I've got to 2 prove -- 3 THE COURT: I've got it. Let's move 4 on. 5 MS. WARDELL: -- not only that it's 6 marijuana, but that he knew about it. 7 THE COURT: Let's move on. 8 MS. WARDELL: And in that context it's 9 significant that he's the one that would 10 retrieve it, he's the one that would roll it 11 which that came out as well. 12 Then there's that third visit with the 13 out-of-town company where, in the presence of 14 Trinidad, Mr. Prince voluntarily took marijuana 15 from one of the females that had come into town 16 who was a friend of theirs, and the door's been 17 opened to that. That's a source other than the 18 Church of Scientology. We talked about the law 19 enforcement visit, and then that's really about 20 it. 21 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, sir, do you 22 wish to make any argument? 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I'm still at a 24 loss as to whether this is rebuttal. For 25 the life of me -- if the purpose of this -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 551 1 this witness is going to say, (a), that on 2 the relevant dates of the information that 3 the marijuana that was possessed was given 4 to them by an agent of law enforcement, that 5 doesn't rebut. That corroborates me, (a); 6 (b), as far as them growing marijuana, once 7 again, Judge, she says, "We didn't grow it. 8 We didn't plant it. We pulled it out and it 9 grow out of a dead rubber tree plant." That 10 does not rebut mine. That corroborates 11 mine. So I'm sitting here wondering how is 12 any of this rebuttal? 13 THE COURT: Well, if it's all 14 corroboration it doesn't hurt you. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, I'm about that 16 close to saying I might do that, but I don't 17 want to waive that. I'm tell you that I 18 don't think that it's proper rebuttal. 19 MS. WARDELL: Judge, again the -- 20 THE COURT: I'll see you after lunch. 21 Now our lunch is at -- now we're back at 22 one-forty. 23 (LUNCH RECESS WAS HAD) 24 THE COURT: Okay. I believe I have 25 corrected the instructions as they need be, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 552 1 if you all would approach, and then we also 2 have the verdict form if you all would come 3 and take a look at it. 4 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I pulled the 5 Medlin case, and I do not have any request 6 on the basis of it. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. DEVLAMING: I think my client would 9 have had to testified that he didn't know it 10 was, and since that's not the case, I'm not 11 asking for it. 12 THE COURT: I appreciate it. All 13 right. At this time I rule that the 14 rebuttal testimony will proceed and that you 15 will get to ask all the questions that you 16 indicated, Miss Wardell. Let's proceed. 17 MR. DEVLAMING: Your Honor, before we 18 bring them in -- 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DEVLAMING: -- just as to one 21 aspect. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Any discussion about an 24 event that occurred allegedly on July 13 25 with some other ladies that apparently had KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 553 1 brought marijuana into the house I believe 2 is irrelevant. Not only is it irrelevant 3 but it's probative value is outweighed by 4 prejudice, and it also is in violation of 5 the William's Rule to establish his 6 propensity. 7 Also same argument as to any marijuana 8 usage before the date that this investigation 9 started. That clearly would be a violation of 10 my client's rights as far as introduction of 11 unrelated evidence. 12 THE COURT: And the purpose for the 13 marijuana the day that the young ladies were 14 at the house, Mr. Gaston was there smoking 15 the marijuana with them; is that what you're 16 telling me she will testify to? 17 MS. WARDELL: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Is that what she said? She 19 did say that. Okay. And the purpose you're 20 arguing is that there is a another source 21 for marijuana. 22 MS. WARDELL: Which is in direct 23 opposition to the Defense's theory in this 24 case. And, Judge -- 25 THE COURT: All right. That's it. I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 554 1 understand. The objection's overruled. You 2 want to put a case on the record? 3 MS. WARDELL: I want to put a case on 4 the record. 5 THE COURT: Put your case on the 6 record. 7 MS. WARDELL: Judge, it's 597 So.2d 8 879, which specifically says that limiting 9 rebuttal which goes to the heart of the 10 principal defense theory would be an abuse 11 of discretion, and because it rebuts their 12 theory I'm allowed to do it. 13 THE COURT: I got it. 14 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, how about any 15 marijuana usage before this event ever, ever 16 began? In other words, that would clearly 17 be prejudicial. 18 THE COURT: I am trying to figure out 19 still -- you are arguing that the reason for 20 that is to establish that they used 21 marijuana even before Mr. Gaston came into 22 their lives and so the Church of Scientology 23 is not necessarily at fault for the 24 possession of the marijuana itself. 25 MS. WARDELL: Right, and if the church KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 555 1 is so out to get you and such this target 2 that you should be concerned about it, which 3 she clearly said they were going through 4 their garbage in Memphis and that they had 5 reason to believe they were followed, then 6 if you're so paranoid about the church and 7 they're doing all these horrible things, why 8 do you smoke marijuana with somebody that 9 you've only known for a week that you get 10 from one of her friends? 11 MR. DEVLAMING: In Memphis, Tennessee? 12 Judge, that is clearly -- 13 THE COURT: I won't grant that request. 14 I don't think you just tied that up. 15 MS. WARDELL: How about that generic 16 question that prior to meeting Mr. Trinidad 17 you and Mr. Prince smoked marijuana? 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Same objection, Judge. 19 I don't think that has anything to do other 20 than to show propensity, and that's exactly 21 why it's being offered, propensity. 22 MS. WARDELL: Judge, the whole theory 23 is marijuana wasn't introduced into the 24 man's life until February 7 when Gaston was 25 hired. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 556 1 MR. DEVLAMING: This marijuana. 2 THE COURT: I think it's fair to ask 3 the question whether or not before, which is 4 essentially where I think you're headed 5 here -- whether or not before you met 6 Rinzy Trinidad did you all participate or 7 possess marijuana? 8 You know, I am concerned about one thing. 9 I want to make sure this is around the time 10 frame that all of this takes place. What I 11 cannot abide and what I cannot agree with is 12 that you sort of get to bring into the testimony 13 here today any prior conduct of both of these 14 individuals. 15 MS. WARDELL: Judge, all of her 16 testimony went from the point she moved into 17 the home, and we know she moved into the 18 home -- 19 THE COURT: All right. So since before 20 they moved into the home, or -- you're 21 talking about Memphis, Tennessee, on one of 22 them. 23 MS. WARDELL: Well, you set that one 24 out. I understand that one's out. 25 THE COURT: All right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 557 1 MS. WARDELL: All the stuff she talked 2 about with the exception of the week that 3 she met him would have occurred after 4 February 24th when she moved into this home 5 with -- 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MS. WARDELL: With the exception of 8 that generic question prior to meeting 9 Trinidad, because -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. So after they moved 11 into the house and before they met 12 Mr. Trinidad I think is a fair question. I 13 will allow it over Defense objection. Do 14 you understand? But what happened in 15 Memphis, Tennessee, you cannot get into. 16 MS. WARDELL: All right. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Can I have a standing 19 objection on that, or do you want me to make 20 the objection -- 21 THE COURT: It's a standing objection. 22 MS. WARDELL: May I just have a moment 23 to mark through so I don't -- I mean, you 24 can be doing what you do, bring them in 25 or -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 558 1 THE COURT: Yeah. Bring them in. 2 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I assume your 3 going to give the drug possession right 4 after you say what Mr. Prince is charged 5 with. Is that what -- 6 THE COURT: It's my intent -- this is 7 the order: 1.02, 2.01, 2.02, drug 8 possession, 2.03, 2.04, 2.04(d), 2.05, 2.07, 9 2.08 and 2.09. 10 MS. WARDELL: Would the Court or the 11 Defense object to the way I somewhat 12 leadingly asked the questions in light of 13 the content in the proffer? Do you think 14 that was a fair enough way to do it? 15 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, are you 16 going to be objecting to leading? 17 MR. DEVLAMING: Well, I might. So, I 18 mean, let's see where it's going. 19 THE COURT: Start the way I did it? 20 MR. DEVLAMING: Yeah. 21 MS. WARDELL: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Are they coming? 23 THE BAILIFF: Yes, sir, they are. 24 (IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 25 THE COURT: Let me apologize for the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 559 1 delay. I assure you we were not -- we were 2 working, so it was surely not designed in 3 any way to take upon your time or waste your 4 time. We are prepared to proceed at this 5 time. 6 And do you -- Mr. DeVlaming, sir, at this 7 time do you wish to call any other witnesses? 8 MR. DEVLAMING: No, your Honor. The 9 Defense rests. 10 THE COURT: All right. The Defense has 11 rested its case. Does the State wish to 12 call any rebuttal witnesses? 13 MS. WARDELL: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. Please call 15 your first witness. 16 MS. WARDELL: Deneen Phillips. 17 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 18 Whereupon, 19 DENEEN PHILLIPS, 20 the State's witness herein, being first duly 21 sworn upon oath, was questioned and testifies as 22 follows: 23 THE COURT: You may proceed. 24 MS. WARDELL: Thank you, Judge. 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 560 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. WARDELL: 3 Q If you could please turn to the jury and 4 introduce yourself by stating your name and how you 5 are currently employed. 6 A My name is Deneen Phillips, and I'm 7 employed with the Lisa McPherson Trust. 8 Q And who is it that you know within that 9 organization that asisted you in getting that job? 10 A Jesse Prince. 11 Q And what is his relationship to you? 12 A He is my fiance. 13 Q And do you share a home together? 14 A Yes, we do. 15 Q Did you move here to Florida to be with 16 him? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 Q Did you specifically pick Clearwater 19 because of his affiliation with the Lisa McPherson 20 Trust? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q You moved into a residence together? 23 A Ma'am? 24 Q You moved into an actual residence 25 together? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 561 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Q You purchased a home? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Q And what's that address? 5 A 1949 Bellair Road, Clearwater. 6 Q And within approximately a month after 7 purchasing that home was there a security system 8 installed? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 Q Do you recall the date that you moved in? 11 A Yes February 24th. 12 Q Okay. Approximately? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. And once the alarm system was 15 installed, it functioned properly? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Q And with regards to your home, I want to 18 talk -- have you talk to the jury for a minute about 19 the actual pool area. It's enclosed by a screened-in 20 porch-type enclosure? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q And there are two doors that lead from the 23 outside to the pool on opposite sides of each other? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Q And one of those doors actually had damage KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 562 1 to it just after you moved in, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And the damage was that the screen was torn 4 out and that if somebody wanted to they could enter 5 the door through the tear in the screen? 6 A Right. And you have to understand that you 7 don't have to do that. You can just open the door. 8 Q Right. 9 A It's not locked. 10 Q Right. Right. But if you lock it or if it 11 were locked a person could still enter in through the 12 hole in the screen? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you noticed that damage in probably 15 sometime in March of 2000? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Q And it wasn't until just recently that you 18 brought somebody out to look at that damage and give 19 you an estimate with regards to repairing it? 20 A I had someone out to do the whole 21 enclosure. 22 Q And that was recently? 23 A Yes. 24 Q After Mr. Prince was arrested? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 563 1 Q Now, with regards to the inside of your 2 home, there are three ways to enter the pool area 3 from within your residence? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Q And you can enter from your bedroom to the 6 pool area? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And there's glass sliding doors? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And the living room to the pool area? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Same thing, glass sliding doors? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 Q And the kitchen area has glass sliding 15 doors to the pool as well? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And there is, in fact, an alarm system 18 trigger on the glass sliding doors that lead from the 19 bedroom to the pool area? 20 A That's the only one, yes. 21 Q Only door that leads to the pool that has 22 an alarm? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. I want to talk to you about an 25 individual that you knew as Trinidad. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 564 1 A Right. 2 Q You met this individual at a Wilson's bar? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Q Okay. Now, I understand that you can't 5 date these meetings, but would it be fair to say that 6 they began after you moved into your home? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Q So we're talking after February 25? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Let's talk about the first time you 11 encountered him. Was it just briefly? He was 12 leaving out the door and you just acknowledged each 13 other? 14 A Correct. 15 Q No names or phone numbers were passed? 16 A No, ma'am. 17 Q And the second time you visit him, that was 18 also at Wilson's Lounge? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 Q And that's when you struck up a friendly 21 conversation? 22 A He did, yes. 23 Q Well, and you participated? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And Mr. Prince was there? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 565 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Q And he participated in a relationship with 3 Trinidad that night at Wilson's Lounge? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And it was a friendly atmosphere? 6 A Yes. 7 Q In fact, while at that lounge you were 8 invited out to the back area for the purpose of 9 smoking marijuana? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 Q And Mr. Prince was also invited to go out 12 and smoke marijuana? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And both of you went for that purpose? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And marijuana was, in fact, smoked once you 17 got outside of Wilson's Lounge? 18 A Yes. Rinzy invited us out with his 19 friends, and, yes. 20 Q And when you say Rinzy, you're referring to 21 mister -- the Trinidad name? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Barry. 25 Q And once outside, Mr. Prince smoked KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 566 1 marijuana? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q And once outside, you too smoked marijuana? 4 A Yes, ma'am, and Rinzy, and his girlfriend. 5 Q And some of the other patrons? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q There were others smoking? 8 A Yes. 9 Q In fact, it was a patron of the bar that 10 provided the marijuana, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q It wasn't -- 13 A It was Rinzy's friend. 14 Q You believe it to be Rinzy's -- 15 A I know it's Rinzy's friend. 16 Q And you base that upon the fact that he was 17 at the bar at the same time frame and was socializing 18 with everybody? 19 A Right. 20 Q But you haven't seen that individual since? 21 A No, ma'am. 22 Q And the best you can describe him is that 23 he was a white male? 24 A Right, with a little shaggy goatee thing 25 and tall. That's all I can remember of him. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 567 1 Q In all the contact that you had with 2 Rinzy Trinidad, you never saw that individual again? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 Q And you've made no attempt to locate him? 5 A No, ma'am. 6 Q Based solely on the fact that he was at the 7 bar with Mr. Trinidad and you all, you believe they 8 were connected? 9 A Right. 10 Q Okay. And that patron, that white male, 11 actually gave Mr. Prince a baggie of marijuana, 12 didn't he? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And Mr. Prince took it? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And following this encounter at the bar 17 where you all smoked the marijuana, you actually 18 invited Trinidad to your home? 19 A Yes. 20 Q That night? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q And he actually followed you from the bar 23 to your home? 24 A Yes, him and his girlfriend. 25 Q That's how come he knew how to get there? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 568 1 A Right. 2 Q You took him there? 3 A Right. He followed us. 4 Q And once in your home you all shared 5 drinks? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Q And you smoked another joint? 8 A Yes, ma'am. He wanted to go because he was 9 trying to relax Joyce, relax her or whatever, and me 10 and Joyce was getting along really well in the bar, 11 and we just took it to my house. 12 Q And this Joyce individual was somebody that 13 was met at Wilson's Lounge? 14 A Yes, she was with him. They were -- 15 Q That's how you knew her? 16 A Right. 17 Q And, in fact, in your home you rolled a 18 joint with the loose marijuana that the white male at 19 the bar gave you? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Q And where did you get the rolling papers? 22 A We had them. 23 Q Who specifically went and got them and 24 brought them to where the marijuana was? 25 A Jesse. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 569 1 Q Mr. Prince? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And were those rolling papers kept in a 4 black box? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 Q You already had them in the home when you 7 all arrived that night? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Is that because from the time period that 10 you moved here to Clearwater, which you said was the 11 end of February, during this time frame you would 12 casually smoke marijuana with Mr. Prince? 13 MR. DEVLAMING: Objection. Leading. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 BY MS. WARDELL: 16 Q During the time frame of when you got here 17 to Clearwater, which we know to be around February 18 24, did you smoke marijuana with Mr. Prince without 19 Mr. Trinidad being present? 20 A We have occasionally, yes. 21 Q Is that why you had the rolling papers? 22 A Yes. It's a lot of little junk in this 23 little black box, so it's not, like, just rolling 24 papers. It was like -- it could be hairpins. It's a 25 lot of things. Just a little storage box. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 570 1 Q But that's where you kept the rolling 2 papers? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You met Mr. Prince, what, about two years 5 ago? 6 A About two years, yes. 7 Q And met him in Memphis, Tennessee? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you came and moved here together? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, the night that we were just talking 12 about when Trinidad actually came to your home from 13 Wilson's, you actually allowed him to go to the pool 14 area? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Q And that was to smoke the joint outside? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Because you had children upstairs and you 19 needed to take it out of the house? 20 A Exactly. 21 Q And this would be, like we discussed, a 22 screened-in pool area? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Q And do you recall how much time passed 25 between your next visit with Mr. Trinidad? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 571 1 A Two weeks. 2 Q Could it have been less? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And we've been calling him Mr. Trinidad. 5 You now know that's not his name, right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q But that's how you knew him? 8 A Right, and I still say Rinzy, so I'm sorry, 9 yes. 10 Q That's okay. So we're talking about 11 Barry Gaston? 12 A Exactly. 13 Q Well, I want to talk about that second 14 visit. He came to your home? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q And is that a yes? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And he actually brought some alcohol right? 19 A Yes. Some Puerto Rican rum. 20 Q Looks like that bottle sitting over there? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q And while there somebody asks for a smoke? 23 A Rinzy. 24 Q He did? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 572 1 Q He brought up the conversation? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And who went and got the marijuana to 4 smoke? 5 A Again, I don't have -- I left it in my 6 purse but, the little sheet that you gave me. 7 Q Okay. 8 A But I think it was Jesse. 9 Q Where exactly did you leave your 10 deposition? 11 A It's in my purse. 12 Q Is it in the courtroom that somebody could 13 get it for you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you're talking about a deposition that 16 you gave just recently in this case. 17 MS. WARDELL: May I approach the 18 witness? 19 THE COURT: Please. 20 BY MS. WARDELL: 21 Q Could you just keep it up there in case you 22 need to refer to it at any time? 23 A Thank you. 24 Q You're actually here under a State's 25 subpoena, right? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 573 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Q And you understand that I give you immunity 3 for the answers that you give while under that 4 subpoena? 5 A Yes, you explained that. 6 Q All right. So on Mr. Trinidad's second 7 visit when he asked if there was any marijuana left 8 to smoke, who went and got it? 9 A I believe Jesse did. 10 Q And do you recall where he got it from? 11 A No, no. I think I did, I'm sorry, because 12 it came from the from my pocket. 13 Q Okay. Is it fair to say that you've 14 previously stated that you got the marijuana from 15 your coat pocket that was smoked that night? 16 A Right. 17 Q And have you also previously stated that 18 Mr. Prince got it from the black tin? 19 A There was an occasion, yeah, the one time 20 that it came out of the black tin. The first time I 21 was -- I feel comfortable doing it like this, because 22 I can't remember way back then. But the first time 23 it came out of my coat pocket that -- the first time 24 he came by. The second time it came out of the black 25 box. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 574 1 Q Okay. And I understand that you're 2 attempting to clarify your testimony today, and 3 that's fine because it was a while back, but you did 4 previously say at your deposition first that 5 Mr. Prince got it from the black tin, and then when 6 you -- 7 A When Jesse got it it came out the black 8 tin, but when I got it it came out of my coat pocket. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Okay. 11 Q One way or the other, wherever it came 12 from, that night it was smoked? 13 A Right, and it's the same marijuana that had 14 came from Rinzy's friend. 15 Q Okay. Approximately how much did that 16 individual give you, if you can recall? 17 A We had at least about four or five joints 18 out of that bag. 19 Q It was a baggie that had loose marijuana in 20 it? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q And you think you rolled anywhere from four 23 to five joints? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Q And with regards to this particular night, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 575 1 Mr. Prince smoked one of the joints that was rolled? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q As did you? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. DEVLAMING: Can we have a date? 6 BY MS. WARDELL: 7 Q Are you able to pin this down other than 8 approximately a week and a half to two weeks after 9 the first visit? 10 A As far as the date? 11 Q Uh-huh. 12 A April maybe. 13 Q After you moved into your home and after 14 you met him at the bar? 15 A Definitely, yes. 16 Q That's the best you can do? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I'm going to 19 object to -- the dates in the information 20 all postdate that, of May 7, August 6 and 21 August 11. It's irrelevant. 22 THE COURT: Objection's overruled. 23 BY MS. WARDELL: 24 Q Do you recall who actually rolled the joint 25 that night? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 576 1 A Which night? I'm sorry. 2 Q We're on the second visit -- 3 A The second night? 4 Q -- that Mr. Trinidad had at your home. 5 A I did or Jesse did. I'm not sure. 6 Q If I could direct your attention to page 4 7 of your depo. If you could read that, and if that 8 refreshes your memory you can look up and answer the 9 question after you've read it. 10 A Thank you. Yes, Jesse. 11 Q Mr. Prince rolled the joint that night? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. I want you to talk to the jury about 14 the third visit that Mr. Trinidad had at your home, 15 and I understand again that you're not really good on 16 the dates because you weren't sitting there keeping a 17 log of this behavior. 18 A Exactly. 19 Q But this is the time that you had company 20 from out of town at that house? 21 A That's right. 22 Q Okay. I want to talk about that night. 23 Mr. Trinidad was invited over? 24 A Right. 25 Q And your girlfriends were there? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 577 1 A Yes. 2 Q I believe -- what were they, from 3 Tennessee? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And there was some drinking? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And -- 8 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, I'm going to 9 object unless we have a date. 10 MS. WARDELL: She's narrowed it down -- 11 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. 12 BY MS. WARDELL: 13 Q And your girlfriends actually brought some 14 marijuana to your home? 15 A They -- yeah, they had. 16 Q And you all participated in smoking of that 17 marijuana? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And when your girlfriends came to your home 20 they didn't know Trinidad. The first they met 21 Trinidad was at your house? 22 A Right. 23 Q And so they had the marijuana prior to 24 meeting Trinidad? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 578 1 Q And did Mr. Prince smoke the marijuana that 2 they brought the your house? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did you? 5 A Yes, and Rinzy. 6 Q And Trinidad and the women? 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q And again this would have been out in the 9 pool porch area? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you actually leave your home after 12 smoking that marijuana and go to a bar-type 13 atmosphere or a restaurant or -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- some type of social setting? 16 A We went and shot pool. 17 Q Okay. And you came back to your home? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q And Mr. Trinidad came back as well? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And your friends? 22 A Right. 23 Q And Mr. Prince? 24 A Right. 25 Q And another joint was smoked, correct? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 579 1 A Right. 2 Q Mr. Prince smoked it? 3 A Right. 4 Q He touched it? 5 A Yes, Rinzy, myself and -- 6 Q -- your friends. 7 A Right. 8 Q Now, at this particular visit that we're 9 talking about where you had your out-of-town company, 10 a marijuana plant was outside on your screened-in 11 porch area? 12 A Right. 13 Q And you knew it was marijuana? You knew it 14 was a marijuana plant? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Mr. Prince knew it was a marijuana plant? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. Now, I want to talk to you 19 about a visit that Trinidad had when Mitch came 20 along. You know now who Mitch was? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You realize he was law enforcement? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And again you're not sure of the date, but 25 you can recall that visit? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 580 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was it Trinidad that brought Mitch over? 3 A It was. 4 Q And you had no problem with the person you 5 knew to be Trinidad bringing a friend to your house? 6 A Well, he just showed up with a friend that 7 he said was from out of town, and he asked us did we 8 still have any of that stuff. Every time there was a 9 joint smoked it was Rinzy's friend's -- Rinzy's 10 reefer. It wasn't, you know, it was -- and he would 11 always refer to it, "Do you have any more? Do you 12 have more? Do you have more?" you know, until I'm 13 like, "Well, I guess. Here, smoke it till it's 14 gone," you know. But -- 15 Q And every time he asked, marijuana was 16 provided, right? 17 A Well, he had marijuana also. So it's not 18 like just -- I want you to understand it's not just 19 coming out of the black can. Rinzy had marijuana and 20 came with it and -- 21 Q He brought some to your house -- 22 A -- and he had his girlfriend, brought her 23 to the house, and, you know, yes. 24 Q And your girlfriends brought some to the 25 house? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 581 1 A Yeah. 2 Q And you still had some left over from the 3 person that gave it to you at the bar? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 A When the officer came by, that was it. It 7 was over. 8 Q Okay. So when the officer came by, is 9 it -- somebody brought it up? 10 A Rinzy. 11 Q So you say Rinzy brought up having a -- 12 what did he call it? 13 A Do you have anymore -- I think he just 14 said, "Do you have anymore of that stuff?" 15 Q And who went and got it? 16 A Me. 17 Q And you think that's when you used up what 18 was left over? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 Q Of the baggie? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q And who rolled the joint, if you recall? 23 A Me. 24 Q And did you all smoke it? 25 A Yes, ma'am. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 582 1 Q You smoked it in the presence of law 2 enforcement, unbeknownst to you? 3 A Right. 4 Q And Mr. Prince smoked it in the presence of 5 law enforcement? 6 A Uh-huh, and Rinzy and the law enforcement. 7 Q And there's not doubt in your mind it was 8 marijuana? 9 A Right. 10 Q And on that visit did you allow Mitch, who 11 was law enforcement, into your pool area? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And on that visit was a marijuana plant in 14 your porch area? 15 A I'm sure, yes. 16 Q You knew it was there? 17 A Uh-huh. There was some marijuana that was 18 just springing up out of my plants, and Jesse would 19 throw them out -- 20 Q And I'm going to talk to you about that and 21 I don't mean to cut you off, but just give me a 22 couple more questions, and then we'll get to that. 23 Okay? 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q I want to talk to you about your second KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 583 1 visit when Mitch, the law enforcement, stopped by. I 2 know you don't recall the date, but was it close in 3 time to when Mr. Prince was arrested? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And at that time were you outside actually 6 watering your plants in the pool area? 7 A Right. They came very early in the 8 morning. I was out in my gown watering my plants, 9 and I looked up and it was Mitch, you know, in my -- 10 on my patio. 11 Q It was close to 11 a.m. when they got 12 there? 13 A I don't know what time. I just know 14 everybody in the house was asleep. 15 Q On a Sunday morning? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And Mitch -- you mentioned Mitch, that's 18 law enforcement, actually came to the pool area? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And did he comment on your knack to raise 21 plants because there was other potted plants? 22 A Yes, ma'am, there was a lot. 23 Q And he observed your potted plants? 24 A Right. 25 Q And one of the plants that was out there KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 584 1 was a marijuana plant? 2 A Yes, it was out there. 3 MS. WARDELL: Judge, may I approach the 4 witness? 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 BY MS. WARDELL: 7 Q This is State's Exhibit NO. 4 for 8 identification. Is this the plant that was out there 9 a few days before Mr. Prince was arrested that you 10 believe law enforcement saw? 11 MR. DEVLAMING: Objection as to what 12 law enforcement saw. 13 MS. WARDELL: I'm just trying to -- 14 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MS. WARDELL: 17 Q Okay. And that plant is kind of next to 18 the screen door that if you walked out your home is 19 on the right? 20 A Right. That's busted. 21 Q That one that's busted out? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Now, you knew that that was a marijuana 24 plant all the way back to late spring or early June 25 of that same year? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 585 1 A Right. 2 Q And that same plant was in your pool area 3 all the way back to late spring or early June? 4 A Right. 5 Q So for just over three months it was on 6 your property? 7 A Right. 8 Q That's property that you and Mr. Prince 9 share together? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 Q Both your names are on the mortgage? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Q Mr. Prince goes to that pool area probably 14 on a daily basis? 15 A At this point, no, ma'am. 16 Q Well, back -- well, during the time frame 17 that you purchased the house which is -- would it be 18 fair to say he cleaned the pool? 19 A Yeah. I do most of the outside stuff. 20 Q And he did it too? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q And he knew that plant was there? 23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q Is that a yes? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 586 1 Q And he knew it was marijuana? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q And, in fact, you had a sprinkler system 4 that watered it, correct? 5 A It's not like the sprinkler system was, 6 like, sitting there watering it, no. It sits next to 7 a sprinkler system that gets all my other plants, so, 8 yes, it got watered also. It was -- 9 Q Right. So when the sprinkler system was on 10 it would get water? 11 A I would say yes. 12 Q And it was in the sun? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, you had started talking a minute ago 15 about some of the other small marijuana plants that 16 sprung up. Let's talk about that. 17 A They were springing out up throughout this 18 whole ordeal. 19 Q Okay. As early as -- was it before you 20 first met Trinidad they began to spring up? 21 A I don't -- 22 Q Was it when you first moved into the home 23 that they began to spring up? 24 A Maybe a few -- a couple of months 25 afterwards. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 587 1 Q Months, or do you think it was sooner? 2 A After we moved into the home with Rinzy. 3 Q Okay. 4 A They started springing up I would say in 5 April, May, June, springing, and he would tear them 6 out and that, you know -- 7 Q And do what with them? 8 A I don't know what he did with them. I 9 threw them out one time, a few of them, in the 10 garbage. 11 Q You pulled some up and you threw the ones 12 you pulled up in the garbage? 13 A Right. 14 Q And during this time frame you had reason 15 to believe that Scientology was following you? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you also had reason to believe that 18 members -- maybe not members, but people associated 19 with Scientology were possibly going through your 20 garbage? 21 A They did. 22 Q But you pulled the smaller ones up and left 23 the large one to grow? 24 A It wasn't large during this time either. 25 It was just -- I just left it, you know. I just left KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 588 1 it there. 2 Q Well, every day it grew larger. That's 3 fair to say? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And that was not one of the ones that you 6 threw away? 7 A Right. You have to understand also that I 8 started working -- excuse me, I started working in 9 June. So it just wasn't like I was -- well, July. 10 It's not like I was outside every day now, or, you 11 know, looking at this plant or it's not the top 12 priority on my list was this plant. It was just 13 something that was growing there. 14 Q But you knew it was there? 15 A I didn't think about it. 16 Q You knew it was there? 17 A Yeah, I -- if you think about it, but you 18 don't think about it, no. It not like it's something 19 that I see every day or I'm, ooh, ooh, ooh, you know, 20 no. 21 Q But you thought about it when you pulled up 22 the smaller ones, right? 23 A Right. 24 Q And you left it? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 589 1 Q And Mr. Prince participated in pulling up, 2 as you describe, quite a bit of small ones, right? 3 A Yeah, they were just growing in my potted 4 plants. 5 Q And he too left that larger one? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Now, as part of your work, you know some of 8 the members of the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 Q And you're also aware that some of these 11 members have used Mr. DeVlaming? You knew who he 12 was? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Fair to say during this February to August 15 time frame you knew who Denis DeVlaming was? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you ever call him at any point from 18 February 24 when you moved in to August 11 and say, 19 "Hey, there's marijuana plants springing up in my 20 back porch screened-in area"? 21 A No. 22 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Prince do that? 23 A Not to my knowledge. 24 Q And as part of the -- let me ask you this: 25 You are familiar with the name of a Ray Emmons? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 590 1 A Yes. 2 Q That's an individual that Mr. DeVlaming has 3 used as a private investigator, correct? 4 A I just found that out, yes, recently. 5 Q Okay. And you're aware that the trust had 6 used him both before and after Mr. Prince's arrest? 7 A I'm aware of what Mr. Emmons did when I 8 started working for the trust actually. I didn't 9 know what Mr. Emmons did. 10 Q Well, Mr. Prince has been working for the 11 trust a lot longer than you, right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you have any idea whether it's been, 14 like, two years, year and a half maybe? 15 A Yes, I would say. 16 Q Somewhere in that time frame? 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q Okay. So at any point did you call the 19 private investigator which you basically had at your 20 fingertips and say, "Hey, there's marijuana plants 21 springing up in my pool porch area"? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 Q Did Mr. Prince? 24 A Not that I know of, no, ma'am. 25 Q And you're certainly aware that some of the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 591 1 tactics that you believe were employed by the Church 2 of Scientology -- 3 A That I know, yes. 4 Q -- as it relates to following you all? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 Q Did it ever occur to you to perhaps set up 7 a hidden video camera to find out where all these 8 random marijuana plants were coming from? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 Q It never occurred to you to fix that hole 11 in your screen door to maybe stop the person? 12 A That's not going to stop anyone from coming 13 in and out. It doesn't have a lock on it, and the 14 whole screen, the whole cage needed to be redone. 15 Q You didn't know that until you recently 16 inquired, right? 17 A No, I knew. It's rotten. 18 Q Okay. 19 A It's weather-worn. 20 Q Did you make any efforts to notify anybody 21 and seek any help with regards to the marijuana 22 plants that were coming up into your porch area? 23 A No. Jesse was pulling them out. 24 Q Just throwing them away? 25 A (Witness indicates.) KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 592 1 Q Yes? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Q In garbage that you knew or believed that 4 Scientology was sifting through? 5 A They sifted through my garbage in 6 Tennessee, not -- I don't know about here, but I do 7 know that they went through it in my home in 8 Tennessee. 9 Q That's certainly not -- you wouldn't put it 10 past them to use that tactic here in Clearwater? 11 A No, ma'am, not at all. 12 Q Okay. So despite that, the marijuana 13 plants were just thrown in the garbage? 14 A Yeah. I throw all my weeds in the garbage, 15 yes. 16 Q Well, all your weeds aren't illegal, 17 though, are they? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Okay. We talked about the marijuana plant 20 being in your pool area the first visit that law 21 enforcement came. Was it also there on that 22 second -- I think you told me that it was also there 23 on the second visit. And were there times between 24 April 7, which I know you don't know the dates, but 25 that's the date documented that law enforcement KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 593 1 entered your home. Were there times when law 2 enforcement entered your home and when Mr. Prince was 3 arrested August 11 that you and Mr. Prince smoked 4 marijuana when Trinidad was not there? 5 A Very occasionally. Not often. And it was 6 out of the that marijuana that Rinzy gave us. 7 Q But -- 8 A I mean, not the Rinzy. It was his friend. 9 Q But it did happen? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now Trinidad never told you to keep that 12 plant and let it grow, did he? 13 A No, ma'am. 14 Q He never directed you or tried to encourage 15 you to keep that plant? 16 A We never discussed -- Rinzy never discussed 17 the plant. 18 Q Same thing with Mitch, when he was acting 19 out his role as Mitch, he never tried to encourage 20 you to keep that plant and he never tried to tell you 21 what to do to foster it or make it grow? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 MS. WARDELL: Judge, I don't have 24 anything further. 25 THE COURT: Any cross? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 594 1 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Please proceed. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 5 Q Miss Phillips, what job did you have before 6 you came with the LMT? 7 A I am an optician. I do laser surgery, 8 glasses, cataract surgery. 9 Q Okay. And did you have that employment 10 during the time of this Rinzy Trinidad era? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Okay. So it's of late that you have now 13 worked for the LMT? 14 A Yes, I have only been there maybe three 15 months. 16 Q You like plants? 17 A Yes, I love them. 18 Q Okay. You grow a lot of plants? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q You proud of them? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And how about Jesse? Does he tend to the 23 plants? 24 A No, he don't. 25 Q Okay. That's not -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 595 1 A No more than help -- you know, he found 2 that marijuana was growing out of, well, a couple of 3 them, mine that I had -- well, I don't know. One of 4 them, one of mine it was growing out, and he would 5 pluck them out. But as far as watering the plants 6 and taking care of plants, no. 7 Q Okay. Are a lot of your plants -- did you 8 get them locally? 9 A Yes. I usually go the Wal-Mart or Home 10 Depot. 11 Q Okay. Are they tropical plants? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. And are there a lot of plants 14 out on the lanai? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. So this isn't a situation where 17 there is one marijuana plant growing in the middle of 18 your pool area? 19 A Right. 20 Q Okay. And are they bunched together as 21 well? In other words, if you were to water, would 22 you have to water one and go to the other, or could 23 you spray the -- 24 A I can -- in some spots I can just spray, 25 and there's not -- I just have them placed all over. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 596 1 Q Okay. 2 A But in some I can spray and some I have to 3 go -- and some are out where the water sprinkler can 4 get them. 5 Q So there are some outside of the lanai as 6 well as inside? 7 A No. They're inside, but the water 8 sprinkler can get to them. 9 Q And hit it? 10 A Uh-huh. 11 Q Okay. 12 A My bushes and my hibiscus and stuff like 13 that. 14 Q On the date of August 11 when the police 15 came to your house -- 16 A Uh-huh. 17 Q -- they took out a plant that had been in 18 this planter, Defendant's Exhibit NO. 3. Did you 19 ever grow a marijuana plant among that root? 20 A No, I never sowed a seed in that pot. 21 Q Did you ever at any time put seeds or 22 attempt to grow marijuana at your property? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 A It just came out. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 597 1 Q Okay. When you would pull them up, would 2 one grow back? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Now, at any time did you ever pull out any 5 plants and dry them out and smoke them? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Okay. That was not done at any time during 8 the course of you living in that home? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Now, you said that Rinzy -- and we'll call 11 him Rinzy Trinidad because that's what you knew him 12 as, didn't you? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And did he try to become a friend to you 15 and your husband? 16 A Yes. 17 Q How about to your children? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did the kids like him? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did he ever bring a girl by the name of 22 Joyce over? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you know what relationship he had with 25 Joyce? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 598 1 A That was his girlfriend that -- he she 2 explained that they had been going out off and on 3 for, like, over a year, year and a half, and he 4 wasn't ready to settle down, and, you know, he'd just 5 come by and pick her up, and but he wasn't ready to 6 settle down with her. That's the understanding that 7 I got from her. 8 Q Were they having any relations? You know 9 what I mean by that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Were they? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. Now, at a Wilson's liquor store, I 14 think it was on the second time that you had seen 15 him -- on the first time it was just he and Jesse 16 said hello? 17 A Yes, sir, that's right. 18 Q And on the second time you said that it 19 looked like a friend of his or an acquaintance of his 20 was out back smoking marijuana with everybody? 21 A Right. 22 Q All right. And how do you -- how do you 23 believe that he and Rinzy were friends or he was part 24 of his crowd? 25 A Because Rinzy knew a few of the people and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 599 1 he was already out there, and he knew a few of the 2 people in the bar. And we don't, you know -- we 3 didn't know them. If we go there me and Jesse is 4 usually just sitting to ourselves. You know, we'll 5 have a drink and it's go back home. 6 Q Did Rinzy actually make the introduction 7 with this man that ultimately gave some marijuana? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q All right. Did Rinzy see that man, to your 10 knowledge, or did he know that the man gave you the 11 marijuana? 12 A Yes, sir, he was standing right there. 13 Q On the 7th day of May, which is the day -- 14 I know you're not great with dates. That's the date 15 that Officer Crosby first came. Okay? 16 A Okay. 17 Q I'm just telling you that, all right? 18 A Okay. 19 Q On the 7th day of May the marijuana that 20 was there on that date was that the marijuana 21 produced by Rinzy's friend? 22 A Yes. 23 Q You sure of that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. Whose idea was it on the 7th KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 600 1 day of May to have, quote, a smoke? 2 A Rinzy's. 3 Q All right. Did he bring it up for that 4 purpose? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. And is he the one that asked 7 you if you had anymore of that stuff? 8 A This is -- we still the day with -- 9 Q Crosby. 10 A -- Crosby? Yes, sir. 11 Q All right. And he was referring to the 12 stuff that his friend had given you? 13 A Right. 14 Q When Rinzy would come over to the house was 15 there ever any time that he was left alone? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Okay. Can you give me an example? 18 A For example, when my girlfriends came in 19 from Tennessee, he was really attracted to one of 20 them, and Jesse and I retired for the rest of the 21 night, and my other girlfriend had came down with 22 her. We went to bed and him -- her -- he and her 23 stayed up until about five in the morning. I offered 24 him -- we had been out, so I set him up a bed and 25 everything and told him he didn't need to drive, you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 601 1 know, to stay here. And me and Jesse went to bed and 2 we woke the next morning and he was gone. 3 Q What was his level of sobriety that night? 4 A We all had been drinking. I would say he 5 didn't need to be driving, and, you know, I gave him 6 a bed so he wouldn't have to because he said he lived 7 in Lakeland. 8 Q Okay. We know now, Miss Phillips, that on 9 April 24 he became a confidential informant 10 working -- that's a police agent. Can you tell us 11 whether or not after April 24 whether he brought 12 marijuana to your house? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Okay. And did he bring it for the purpose 15 of offering it and for the purpose of smoking it? 16 A Yes. And the night with my girlfriends he 17 had marijuana. You know, I'm not just saying it was 18 my girlfriends' marijuana too. He had marijuana 19 also. 20 Q Did he take it out then himself? 21 A Yeah, it was just joints -- 22 Q Okay. 23 A -- passed. 24 Q All right. 25 A They were already rolled. It was not KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 602 1 like -- he already had them. 2 Q At any time did you ever see any plants of 3 marijuana plants growing in your yard, by in your 4 yard meaning in your backyard or front yard? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Okay. So the only ones that were sprouting 7 up were the ones that were in that lanai area? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q How old were the kids back then? 10 A Back then one was nine an one was thirteen. 11 Q What's the nine-year-old's name? 12 A Brandon. 13 Q And the thirteen? 14 A Terrence. 15 Q Both in school? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you and Jesse were both working? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So during the school year at least, all 20 four of you would be away from the house during 21 business hours? 22 A Yes. 23 Q On the 6th day of August in the year 2000, 24 that's the date that Officer Crosby came back with 25 Trinidad, do you remember that date where they just KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 603 1 came back and had a very brief visit? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q All right. Did you ever see Gaston try to 4 get Jesse to sell marijuana? 5 A He came by to try to see -- saying that 6 they were on their way to the Keys and did Jesse have 7 any marijuana that he could sell them. 8 Q Okay. What did Jesse say? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. Did you ever see Jesse possess any 11 marijuana on that date? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Okay. Did he tend to any marijuana plants 14 that were in the lanai on that date? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Okay. Did he ever tend to any of the 17 marijuana plants? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Okay. And on the 11th day of August in the 20 year 2000, that's the date of your -- of his arrest? 21 A Yes. 22 Q All right. Did you ever see him tend to 23 the marijuana plant that was contained in that dead 24 rubber tree root plant? 25 A No, sir. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 604 1 Q All right. Tell me about that day, Deneen. 2 What happened? What happened that morning? 3 A Of the arrest? 4 Q Yes, ma'am. 5 A Well, I had an accident on that Wednesday 6 so I was home from work with bruises and everything, 7 and I think it was a Friday. And early in the 8 morning we had a knock on the door, and the door bell 9 rang, and Jesse got up to answer it. He just put on 10 his robe. 11 And I heard someone say they just wanted to 12 talk to him about that car that was sitting -- the 13 red car that was sitting in the front yard. And he 14 then said that, you know, that was his -- he didn't 15 have a red car, his fiancee did, and that's when I 16 jumped up and went to the door, and they said, Well, 17 just let me talk to you for a second, and before I 18 knew it, they put handcuffs on him. 19 Q How were they dressed at that point? When 20 they're at the front door, how are they dressed? 21 A They had, like, black SWAT -- what I call 22 it like the SWAT team deal and the guns with the 23 scopes or whatever you call them on them. 24 Q Okay. All right. So they brought you 25 outside and put the handcuffs on you. What happened KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 605 1 next? 2 A And I just started asking them, "What's 3 going on?" you know, and they didn't answer. They 4 brought him back in the house, and this guy -- and 5 I'm like, "What's going on?" All these people, it 6 was like seven or eight, nine -- I don't know. It 7 was a lot of them in the SWAT outfits. And I'm 8 constantly asking them, "What's going on?" you know, 9 "What's going on? Tell me what's going on." No one 10 ever would say anything, you know. 11 So at this point I'm getting scared because 12 I'm wondering what is going on, and this guy starts 13 reading. He is mumbling and told me to stand back, 14 you know, because I'm trying to listen, but he is 15 just mumbling to Jesse off this sheet of paper. And 16 there's guys -- I look up and there's guys in my shed 17 back there, and, you know, just all in my back yard. 18 And I'm still asking, "What's going on?" until I just 19 fall on my knees. And I'm still asking them, "What's 20 going on?" 21 And one guy wanted to go upstairs to search 22 up there and asked me, you know, would I go up there 23 with him. And I'm, like, good because this is a 24 chance for me to find out, you know, what is going 25 on. I went up with him and my sons were upstairs KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 606 1 asleep. And he started looking all through my 2 closets, took the gun beating, you know, on the walls 3 asking me the structure, why are my walls so thick 4 and why are my closets so big. 5 And I'm still asking, "What's going on? I 6 don't want you to tell me down there where Jesse is. 7 Tell me up here because I have two kids. What is 8 going on here?" He never would answer me at all, and 9 we go back downstairs and next thing you know the 10 only -- they come out, he pulls out this marijuana -- 11 the marijuana plant, and threw -- dripping it through 12 the house and the guy asked him, "Did you photograph 13 that?" And he says no. 14 "Well, you better go back out there and 15 take a picture." So he plops back in there. 16 And I'm like, "Is this what it's about?" 17 you know, "What's going on?" I'm still thinking it's 18 something. You know, and they come up and he says, 19 "One marijuana plant?" You know, and I'm just 20 panicking at this time because I'm thinking it's 21 something much more than this marijuana plant still. 22 And until they put Jesse -- they took Jesse 23 and took him outside with the handcuffs. The guy 24 went through the drawers and everything because he 25 was helping Jesse get some clothes on to transport KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 607 1 him because he didn't have any clothes on. And I'm 2 outside. I'm still wondering what's going on. I 3 didn't find out until, like, I went back in the 4 house, they transported him, And I read the paper 5 that it was about this marijuana plant. 6 Q Okay. Did the police in your presence go 7 through the rooms? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did you ever see them conducting any 10 search? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What were they doing? 13 A They were looking through my closets, 14 looking -- you know, they were all upstairs. They 15 were in Jesse's drawers because they had to be, you 16 know, to get his clothes, and they were just all over 17 the house. They were in my shed. I have a shed in 18 the back. They were back there -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A -- in that. 21 Q Did they ever make any mention to you that 22 they found anything other than what was growing out 23 of that dead plant? 24 A They never mentioned anything, but that's 25 all they left with was that. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 608 1 Q Okay. 2 A They just told me, "He'll be back in an 3 hour," you know, which it wasn't an hour, but "he'll 4 be back in an hour." And when they came out with the 5 marijuana plant, that's the other thing. I'm like, 6 you know, "What's going on here?" you know. "You 7 know that I didn't plant this and you know what's 8 going on. You've lived in Largo. You've lived in 9 Clearwater long enough. You know what's going on 10 here, and you know who Jesse Prince is." And the guy 11 goes, "Well, it's your -- it's your house." And he 12 walked out the door. 13 MR. DEVLAMING: Thank you, Miss 14 Phillips. Thank you, your honor. 15 THE COURT: State? 16 MS. WARDELL: Yes, your Honor. Excuse 17 me, yes, sir. 18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MS. WARDELL: 20 Q I want to talk to you a little bit about 21 the search. Now, you said they went through 22 Mr. Prince's drawers in the bedroom, and that's 23 because he was in his bathrobe and they were 24 assisting him in getting some clothes to change into 25 to go down to the police station, right? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 609 1 A I know they helped him get his clothes. 2 Q And he was in, I think, his bathrobe when 3 he answered the door? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Because he had been asleep? 6 A Right. 7 Q So they weren't picking through his 8 underwear and tossing things around trying to see 9 everything in this drawer. They got him some clothes 10 and they gave them to him? 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. And as far as the entries into the 13 other rooms, that was for security to see if there 14 were people there. They weren't -- same thing. They 15 weren't taking your kitchen drawers out, rifling 16 through your silverware, they weren't going through 17 your china cabinet, going through your silver 18 drawers. They were checking the main compartments 19 like a closet or a bathroom to see if there was other 20 individuals maybe hiding, right? 21 A Right, and beating on the walls. 22 Q When you said it was a search, it wasn't a 23 search in a sense they were digging around looking 24 for contraband or illicit items. They were just 25 looking to clear the residence to make sure there was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 610 1 no threat of harm to them, right? 2 A If you say so. 3 Q Well, did you see them picking through any 4 of your -- did they go into your bathroom and pick 5 through your cosmetic case? 6 A They went in the bathroom. I don't know. 7 They had me -- they told me to stay here. You know, 8 I couldn't go with -- the only place I could go was 9 upstairs with the guy that I was begging to tell me 10 what was going on. That's the only place. Other 11 than that, they told me to just stay there. 12 Q I'm just trying to clear up -- because you 13 told the jury they searched your home, and I'm just 14 trying to clear up, you know, what you meant by the 15 search. You went upstairs with him. He didn't go 16 into your kids' room and dump the kids' drawers 17 out -- 18 A He went in my kids' room, yes. 19 Q Did he dump their drawers out? 20 A No, he didn't dump their drawers. 21 Q He did a cursory look around to make sure 22 there was no threat of harm, right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. And you said that you were worried 25 about the kids that morning, right? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 611 1 A Yes. 2 Q They swim in that swimming pool that's 3 enclosed? 4 A If I make them, yes. 5 Q Were you worried about them recognizing 6 that plant to be marijuana? 7 A No. 8 Q Were you worried about them when you were 9 at Wilson's bar all that time? 10 A Was I worried about -- 11 Q Were you worried about your children at 12 home when you were at Wilson's bar all that time? 13 A Wilson's is not even a quarter of a mile. 14 It's like a neighborhood bar on the corner. It's 15 not -- no, and my son is fourteen. 16 Q At the time he was thirteen and the other 17 one was nine, I think you said, right? 18 A He turned fourteen in December that year. 19 Q Okay. And when you were at Wilson's bar 20 you were out of the residence, right? 21 A Right. 22 Q Were you worried about your children when 23 you -- 24 MR. DEVLAMING: Objection, Judge. This 25 is totally irrelevant. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 612 1 MS. WARDELL: Judge, they opened the 2 door with this concern about the children 3 during the warrant. 4 MR. DEVLAMING: I don't recall -- 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 BY MS. WARDELL: 7 Q You mentioned that this was, quote, all 8 about a marijuana plant. It's about a marijuana 9 plant that Mr. Prince knew was on his property, 10 right? 11 A Uh-huh, yes, ma'am. 12 Q Yes? And it's about a marijuana plant that 13 Mr. Prince knew was marijuana, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And he had over three months to get rid of 16 that marijuana plant if he wanted to, and he chose 17 not to, right? 18 A He don't just get rid of my, you know, 19 plants. 20 Q That's a very simple question. He had 21 three months to get rid of that particular marijuana 22 plant, and he chose not to, right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 MS. WARDELL: I don't have anything KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 613 1 further. 2 MR. DEVLAMING: Nothing further, your 3 Honor. 4 THE COURT: Ma'am, you may step down. 5 State have any other witnesses you wish -- 6 I'm sorry. Do the jurors have any 7 questions? Thank you. State have any other 8 witnesses you wish to call? 9 MS. WARDELL: No, sir. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Counsel please 11 approach for a moment. 12 Is the State resting its case at this time? 13 MS. WARDELL: Yes, your Honor. 14 (WHEREUPON THE FOLLOWING BENCH CONFERENCE WAS HAD) 15 THE COURT: I forgot to let you make 16 your judgment of acquittal argument at the 17 end of your case. Do you wish to make that 18 argument at this time? 19 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, Judge, and I would 20 just renew the same grounds. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Now, at the end of 22 the State's case, you renew the same 23 grounds? 24 MR. DEVLAMING: Correct. 25 THE COURT: All right. Now, do you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 614 1 need a break before so you can set up for 2 your closing? Are you ready to go right 3 into it since -- actually, you have first 4 and last. Do you need a break? 5 MS. WARDELL: I would prefer to do all 6 of it at the same time, so I don't want to 7 let me go and break anywhere. My preference 8 would be I don't want to go, break, him go, 9 me go. So I hope for us just to all do it. 10 MR. DEVLAMING: Oh, yeah. I just need 11 to run to the back then real quick and then 12 I'm ready. 13 THE COURT: You're going to go first? 14 MS. WARDELL: No. I'm first. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: She's first. 16 THE COURT: You said you don't want a 17 break. 18 MS. WARDELL: In other words, I don't 19 want the three closings broken up. So if 20 we're going to break, I'd rather break now. 21 THE COURT: I see what you're saying, 22 you want a break now. I thought you were 23 telling me you didn't want to break your 24 closing up. 25 MS. WARDELL: I don't want to break me, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 615 1 him, me up. I don't want a break between 2 me, him, me. 3 MR. DEVLAMING: She's not waiving 4 opening in other words. 5 THE COURT: That's what I thought you 6 were saying. Are you telling me now you 7 want to take a break right now? 8 MS. WARDELL: Yes, so that we can do 9 all of the closings in a row. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MS. WARDELL: Does that make sense? 12 THE COURT: Yes. How much time do you 13 think you need to get ready? 14 MS. WARDELL: Just long enough to go to 15 the bathroom. 16 MR. DEVLAMING: Yeah, just a bathroom 17 break. 18 THE COURT: Five? 19 MR. DEVLAMING: Yep. 20 (WHEREUPON THE BENCH CONFERENCE CONCLUDED) 21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we're 22 going to take a five minute break and after 23 that we're going to go directly into closing 24 arguments. Each side has forty-five minutes 25 for their closing, so I anticipate that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 616 1 we'll be here for another hour and a half or 2 so. Five minutes, okay? Please take the 3 jury out. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, it's going to 5 actually be a fifteen minute break. I 6 apologize. I forgot I had to do something. 7 (OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY) 8 THE COURT: We got to take fifteen. 9 (A RECESS WAS HAD) 10 THE COURT: All right. If there's 11 nothing else, please bring them in. Do you 12 want me to alert you at any particular 13 point? 14 MR. DEVLAMING: I'm going to tell you, 15 I told Miss Wardell, I got tagged once on 16 time. I probably -- my final argument will 17 probably be twenty minutes. Okay? But I'm 18 not going to take back any time I gave you. 19 THE COURT: I understand. 20 MR. DEVLAMING: I seriously doubt 21 you're going to have to tap your pen. If 22 I'm within five minutes, you can tap it and 23 you can jump off the bench and grab me by 24 the -- 25 THE COURT: I normally say five minutes KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 617 1 at some opportune point. Do you want me to 2 alert you, Miss Wardell, at any point? 3 MS. WARDELL: Judge, I kind of got my 4 mindset thing, so I'll probably be all 5 right. If I get close to twenty, I -- I 6 think I'll be all right. 7 THE COURT: Okay. So if you get up to 8 twenty, shall I say, okay, twenty minutes? 9 MS. WARDELL: Yeah, that's fine. 10 THE COURT: Done. 11 MS. WARDELL: I don't think it's going 12 to get to that point, but -- 13 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 14 END OF VOLUME IV 15 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS