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IN THE COUNTY COURT OF THE
SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
STATE OF FLORIDA,
Plaintiff,
vs Case No: 99-21857
MMANO-E
ROBERT S. MINTON,
Defendant.
(Whereupon the jury was brought
in.)
THE COURT: Counsel for the Defendant please
call your next witness.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Yes, your Honor, at this time Bob Minton would like
to take the stand in his own defense.
(Whereupon, the witness was sworn.)
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THE COURT: Please proceed.
Whereupon,
ROBERT MINTON,
The Defendant, was called f or examination by counsel in
his own behalf, and having been previously duly sworn,
was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Tell us your name?
A Bob Minton, M-I-N-T-O-N.
Q Mr. Minton, where do you live?
A I live in Sanddown, New Hampshire, and Boston,
Massachusetts.
Q Tell us your age?
A Fifty-four.
Q What do you do for a living?
A I have retired. I retired about seven years
ago. I previously was involved in an investment banking
business that was active in the trading of Third World
debt instruments.
Q It suffices to say, you were successful in that
endeavor, financially successful?
A Yes, sir. I did achieve some degree of
financial success, and reached a level where I wanted to
pursue other interests outside of working.
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Q Is one of those interests somewhat the subject
of what this trial has at least revolved around?
A Yes, a couple of years after I retired I did --
the Church of Scientology's actions on the Internet were
brought to my attention and it has been since that time a
fairly consuming part of my activities.
Q By consuming part of your activities, has it
taken you literally around the world?
A Yes, not only around the world, but
particularly here in the United States I have traveled
all over the country and met former Scientologists,
former high ranking Scientologists. I am currently in
dialogue with large numbers of current Scientologists.
I've been to Europe, to Germany as guest of the German
government to discuss how their view, and out views here
in the United States coincide and to learn from t1~
experience, because they have had a lot more experience
dealing with Scientology under their democratic form of
government than we have.
Q Mr. Tyson made a comment in his opening that
you do not like Scientologists. Is that accurate?
A It's not accurate. There a number of people at
the top of Church of Scientology who I believe are
directing the abusive and deceptive practices of
Scientology. And you know, I am not particularly
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enamored with them, and I don't particularly think there
is much chance to rehabilitate them any time in the near
future. But the rank and file Scientologists, which
certainly ninety-five percent Scientologists at least are
extremely nice decent people. Some of the nicest people
-- I have said in speeches that I have given at various
conferences that the nicest people that I have ever known
have been Scientologists. Most of them now are former
Scientologists. But the Sea Organization and the Office
of Special Affairs are the sections within Scientology
that I have a lot of problems with.
Q Very briefly, what is your purpose in coming to
Clearwater and doing these protests and speaking out, and
so forth?
A The principle purpose of me coming here to
Clearwater, and I think I maybe need to just back up a
little bit to tell you how I have come here to
Clearwater.
Q Okay.
A If that is acceptable. There
has never been an
organization that was specifically set up to expose the
deceptive and abusive practices of Scientology. There
have been many organizations who have been in this sort
of anti-cult area that have been established and who
Scientology has made their enemy. The most recent was
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the Cult Awareness Network, which was a very large
national group that was exposing the abusive practices of
all cults.
The Church of Scientology took it on as
their own project to destroy this organization, and did
so successfully after nine years of very serious and
expensive litigation on behalf against the Cult Awareness
Network. So what Scientology has essentially done is
sued all of the organizations that have ever been set up
out of existence and they did that with the Cult
Awareness Network.
Having been involved in this anti-cult
movement for a little over five years now I wanted to set
an organization here in Clearwater to specifically expose
Scientology's deceptive and abusive practices, right here
in their own back yard. Getting the message out to the
public, but to local city government people who have been
embracing the Church of Scientology in a way that hasn't
been seen in these parts for twenty-five years.
In the last couple of years that there
have been some serious changes in the way the government
has embraced Scientology. And to communicate to the
young Sea Org. members who you see going around the
streets of Clearwater.
Q Those are the ones in uniform?
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A Yes, that's correct. And to work with current
Scientologists here in Clearwater who have the goal of
reforming from inside the organization, but they don't
have the political power within the organization to do
that. They realize that they need external help to
reform this organization's deceptive and abusive
practices. And they have come to me to help them, and
the organization that I helped set up here.
Q Let me stop you here. Does that organization
have a name?
A Yes, it is called the Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q Did that involve someone, the death of a
Scientology member by that name?
A Yes.
Q Is that who it was named
after?
A Yes, it was in honor of Lisa Mcpherson, who was
a young woman who was thirty-six years old. She spent
eighteen years or so of her life in Scientology. She
ended up being --
MR. TYSON: Judge, may I object
briefly.
I don't mind Mr. de Vlaming
asking some of his questions,
but he is testifying --
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q The organization that you started for the
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purpose you just told the jury is the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct?
A Correct.
Q Were you privy to watch some video in this case
while this trial proceeded yesterday?
A Yes, I did.
Q You heard it?
A I saw it all.
Q We heard you on the video,
Mr. Minton, talk about Lisa McPherson and where she was, and other things
of that nature, is that correct?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did you yourself bring a lawsuit involving Lisa McPherson?
A No, I did not.
Q Had that begun before you had come into town to
start the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Several years before, in fact the lawsuit, Lisa
McPherson died on December 5,1995, and I believe the
family's lawsuit against the Church of Scientology was
filed in -- sometime in '96. I believe it was before the
middle of the year, I'm not sure when it was actually
filed.
Q And when had you started coming into town to
form this organization?
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A We started to try to setup in Clearwater as
early as September of '99, but we didn't get to
Clearwater for a variety of reasons until January of this
year.
Q Have you been able, however, based upon your
success in your previous profession to help fund the Lisa
McPherson Trust and its goals that you just said?
A Yes, I have.
Q Now, on the basis of that, Mr. Minton, has that
caused you some, for lack .of a better term, problems with
the Office of Special Affairs, or the practices of the
Church of Scientology?
A Well, I have had a lot of problems with the
Church of Scientology and the Office of Special Affairs
for a lot of years now. But clearly, the Lisa McPherson
case and my funding of it is according to the New York
Times, the reason Scientology hates me the most.
Q Are you, for lack of a better term, enemy
number one to the Church of Scientology, to your
knowledge?
A Several newspapers and NBC Dateline, for
example, have referred to me that way.
Q Now, do you from time to time, and you have
already told us other things that you do to get out the
message, but do you as one of them, protest up and down
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the public sidewalk of The Fort Harrison Hotel, where the
alleged spiritual headquarters are located?
A Yes, I do.
Q And when you come to town do you bring placards
from time to time to get out the message?
A Yes, I do.
Q Who do you hope to reach by doing that?
A A combination, it depends on the particular
time, and the place, and where, and what message is on
the sign. It can be current Scientologists, it can be
the public, it can be the OSA people even, who are out
there generally hassling you.
Q To your knowledge, have you been investigated
by the church, your background, you life?
A Yes, I have. The Church of Scientology didn't
have folders on me, PC folders they call them, which they
have on their own members, because their own members
confess everything and it's put in a folder. So the way
they had to deal with me is create the same information
they have on their own members on me. So then they could
apply the same type of policies that they would apply
against their own members on me. And they started
investigating me sometime in the summer of 1997, which
was the first time I gave money to the Estate of Lisa
Mcpherson, to her attorneys, so that they could prosecute
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the case -- or continue prosecuting the case against
Scientology.
Q Mr. Minton, did you hear the testimony, the
witness that testified just before you took the stand?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you hear him describe what the term "Fair
Game", did you hear him testify as far as that?
A Yes, I did.
Q Based upon your treatment at the hands of the
church, have you been labeled, to your knowledge, "Fair
Game" and treated as such?
A Yes, without any doubt. Without any doubt.
Q Now on the 31st of October, of last year, 1999,
did you fly into Clearwater?
A Into Tampa.
Q Into Tampa?
A Yes.
Q Was your stated purpose
to come to the Lisa
McPherson Trust and perform the duties that that
organization has?
A Well, not at that time. Stacy Brooks was
meeting me in Tampa. She flew, I believe, from Atlanta
and we met here in Tampa; Ms. Brooks had been looking
for office space in Clearwater during September and
October. We had in every major office building in
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downtown Clearwater -- we were eventually rejected for
office space. Not because of lack of any financial wear-
with-all to pay for the office, but because in each and
every instance the Church of Scientology, which was
following me around all the time then, were going to
these office building and providing booklets like they
provided to the prosecutors office on all the individuals
involved in this Lisa McPherson Trust, and persuaded
these office buildings that we were troublemakers, that
they shouldn't rent to us, that there will be pickets
outside of their building by the Church of Scientology
and they all refused to rent to us. So there were also
people who were called by the Assistant City Manager's
office in Clearwater suggesting that they should not be
dealing with Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton, or Jesse Prince.
We believe that this was due to pressure by the Church of
Scientology on these officials.
Q Was that purpose for coming into town, to try
to shore up a place for the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Well, the purpose was to try to find a place.
At that stage we were not able to because even though
some of these buildings were a third empty, nobody had a
lack of space, it's just they wouldn't let us rent
because of these reasons. I decided the only way we
could go forward down here was to buy a building. So I
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had came -- Ms. Brooks had been down here the week
before, she had looked at some available buildings
downtown, and since we were going to have to act quickly
in terms of concluding a deal, I came down here to try to
strike a deal to buy an office building for the Lisa
McPherson Trust.
Q When you landed in Tampa was there anybody
there to meet you?
A Yes, when you go from the gate you take a
shuttle bus, not a shuttle bus, a train. And as soon as
the door opened I walked out and there is two
Scientologists, well, two ladies which I subsequently
determined were Scientologists, but they said to me when
I had taken maybe three steps off the shuttle, "Bob
Minton, what are you doing in our town?" I immediately
assumed that they were Scientologists, because throughout
my life before, until I got in this battle, strangers
never walked up to me and mentioned me by name, or said
anything to me like that. So I said to them at the time,
"Maybe this used to be your town, but I am here to help
liberate this town." And that was reported in the
newspapers.
Q Did you thereafter rent a vehicle to leave
Tampa International?
A Yes, I did.
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Q And as you left Tampa International was Stacy
Brooks with you?
A Yes, we were in the car together.
Q Was there a time, Mr. Minton, when you realized
that you were being followed?
A There was.
Q About where were you or when did you --
A Just coming out the parking lot of the rental
car place, there was a van there. At various times, just
to put this in perspective, at various times when I have
come to the airport, you know, Tampa police officers have
been there to meet and see whether we were being
followed. This particular time we hadn't taken any
particular precautions about -- of any security nature.
And you know being followed by the Church of Scientology
is something that I am pretty accustomed to. You sort of
develop an eye to spot these people. The way they
typically do it, they have two cars who are following
you. And they go back and forth. Sometimes will pass
you. But we saw this van who was behaving in strange
way, and he wasn't inside the Hertz or Avis place, he was
just kind of lurking at the exit of it. Sure enough that
car proceeded behind us. Not at close distance. I just
assumed that was one of the cars that would be in the
cavalcade of cars that might be following us.
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Q Was there a time that you saw a white vehicle
that you later determined was being operated Richard Howd
after you left Tampa International?
A Yes, that was somewhere on Gulf to Bay, before
the split, you know, where Cleveland Street goes one way,
and I guess, Court Street, if you continued straight, you
go down Court Street, I believe.
Q Is that when you realized that you were being
followed by Mr. Howd?
A I didn't know Mr. Howd's name at the time, but
I said Stacy Brooks, I said, "Hey, that's the Ybor City
guy who is following us."
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: May I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Mr. Minton, let me show you what has been
marked as Defendant's Exhibits 1A, B, and C, and tell me
whether you can recognize -- first of all tell me what
you can recognize of those exhibits? Just yes or no
whether you can?
A Yes, I can.
(The photographs hereinafter referred to
were marked as Defendant's
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Exhibits No. 1A, B and C for identification.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Were they taken while you were present?
A They were, and I believe I am the one who took the pictures.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: At this time I
would offer into evidence Defendant's Exhibits 1A, B, and C.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. TYSON: No.
THE COURT: They will be admitted
and so marked.
(The photographs heretofore marked as Defendant's
Exhibits No. 1A, B and C for identification was
received into evidence.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Whose vehicle was that?
A That was the car that Mr.
Howd was driving that
day.
Q Tell the jury why it was taken in this
particular position, and if you can testify as what is in
the background, tell us some landmarks there?
87
A Okay, that's the -- when you go towards the
Belleview Biltmore Hotel, you go around a large curve to
the left, and so as you are progressing along there is a
big curve to the left to go into the Belleview Biltmore.
And just at that fork there is a road called Alexander
Road, which forks down to the right. That is on Alexander
Road, the van that you see there in the top left part of
the picture that appears to be going into the Belleview
Biltmore.
Q Were you going to be staying at the Belleview
Biltmore Hotel?
A Yes, I was.
Q Did the driver of this vehicle, Mr. Howd, did
he follow you from Gulf to Bay to where you were going to
be staying?
A Just to clarify, there's a little sequence
issue here.
Q Go ahead, tell us about it.
A We were on our way to the Belleview Biltmore
from the airport and because we were being followed we
decided to go The Fort Harrison Hotel and do a picket.
The reason we decided to do that in response to being
followed is that, you know, we didn't want these guys
working for Scientology, or Scientology who we knew they
were reporting, to think that we were intimidated or
88
scared by their harassing tactics of constantly following
us. And we went to the parking lot across the street
from The Fort Harrison Hotel on Fort Harrison Avenue,
parked the car. Actually I dropped Ms. Brooks off at the
front of The Fort Harrison Hotel and I drove around to
the parking lot to park. Then I came over with a camera
and Ms. Brooks was out with the picket sign and I was
just taking photographs of her. From there we left and
went to the Belleview Biltmore and from The Fort Harrison
Hotel, yes, we were followed by two cars. And in order
to take -- I did try to take some evasive action around
the area of Morton Plant Hospital and turn right off of -
- at South Fort Harrison Avenue there. And turned right
into some of the back streets behind and around Morton
Plant Hospital in an attempt to a lose them, because I
didn't want them following us to the hotel.
Q Did you know at that time that they knew you
were staying there already?
A No, I didn't. So on the way we ended up
getting back on South Fort Harrison Avenue to go up to, I
believe it is Belleview, or Biltmore, I forget what the
name of the street is there, but you make a right past
their golf course and you go down to where the Belleview
Biltmore Hotel is. So as we rounded that big curve there
is Mr. Howd standing out in the street up against --
89
somewhere near where that van is, probably just a little
bit to the right. He is standing there in the street
there with his camera pointed right at the car as we came
around the corner.
Q Was that before or after this photograph was
taken? It must have been before this photograph was
taken?
A Yes, that was before.
Q Did you then go into the Belleview, or did you
make a turn?
A We turned into alexander Road and parked behind
his car. Then I got out and took pictures, because the
pictures that -- the reason that I was interested in
taking pictures inside his car is he had all the picket
signs of the picketers who were there, who spontaneously
appeared with picket signs provided by Mr. Howd when
Stacy Brooks showed up in The Fort Harrison that
afternoon as we were on our way from the airport.
Q Did you while you were there also take a
photograph of his license plate?
A I did, yes.
Q And at that point in time you didn't know Mr.
Howd, or know his name?
A No, I didn't.
Q So you wanted to at least preserve it by the
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license plate that you took?
A Yes, I wanted to at least be able to find out
who this was who was following us.
Q Was there a second car involved in following
you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember the color of that car?
A I just remember it was an older Volvo. And I
can't remember the color right now. Now that car was
only following us from The Fort Harrison, it didn't --
Q Was there a woman in that car?
A Yes, there was.
Q Did you end up taking her picture?
A Yes, I did.
Q Is this the woman that was following you in the
second car?
A Yes.
Q We see that same post in
there, was that taken
on or about the same time these photographs were taken of
the car?
A Soon thereafter. The reason being is that she
wasn't there when we first got there. Her car wasn't
there. We subsequently found out from the guard at
Belleview Biltmore gatehouse that she had gone in through
gatehouse and come out again -- and subsequently came
91
out. When she came out she then came up and parked there
on Alexander Road as well.
Q Did she get out of her car, obviously?
A She did, yes, and that's when I took that
picture.
Q Any dialogue between you and her, or you and
Mr. Howd? Did you talk back and forth, or were they
saying anything?
A I don't think there was anything of consequence
that I particularly remember.
Q Mr. Minton, when you talked to member of the
Office of Special Affairs and you ask them questions, be
it about Lisa, or any of the doctrines of the Church of
Scientology, did they ever give you an answer?
A No, not in response to any question. I mean
give --
MR. TYSON: I object to the
relevance of this. I don't know what this has to do with the battery that
night. I'm not sure where we are going here.
THE COURT: Counsel approach.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Judge,
I will move on unless you want us to still approach.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Please move on. Thank you.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
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Q Mr. Minton, you made a comment that you
recognized him as the man you had seen in Ybor City a few
minutes ago. Had you seen Mr. Howd before once he got
out of that vehicle? Had you recognized him?
A Yes, I did recognize him. First I recognized
him from having appeared in Ybor City, sometime I believe
it was December '97.
Q Were you there having something to do with
educating about or protesting, however you want to put
it, the practices of Scientology?
A Yes, I was.
Q That was your purpose of being in Ybor City?
A Yes, I was there together with a group of maybe
a dozen people.
Q Did Mr. Howd appear there and photograph you as
well, and videotape you?
A He did, yes.
Q Have you brought with you photographs of Mr.
Howd videotaping you on that occasion?
A Yes, I did.
Q Let me show you what has been marked as
Defendant's Exhibit 12 and 13 for identification,
specifically number 12, are you in that photograph?
A Yes, I am.
Q Is Mr. Howd in that photograph?
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A He is.
(The photographs hereinafter referred to were marked as Defendant's
Exhibits No. 12 and 13 for identification.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Is he videotaping you?
A I don't think he is actually videotaping me,
but he is taping somebody else who is there. I am
standing real close to him.
Q And in the other photograph that is before you,
is he shown videotaping you at that time?
A I think that is what he is doing, yes.
Q I'm not being overly technical. I don't know
whether it was on or not, but he has got a video camera?
A Yes.
Q And did he videotape you
on that occasion as
well?
A He did.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Your Honor, at this time I would offer into evidence
Defendant's Exhibits 12 and 13.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. TYSON: No, Judge.
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THE COURT: They will be admitted
and so marked. Thank you.
(The document heretofore marked as Defendant's Exhibits
Nos. 12 and 13 for identification were received into
evidence.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Did you later that evening,
of October 31, 1999, did
you go to woman's house named Benetta Slaughter?
A Yes, I did.
Q Was Ms. Brooks there?
A She was.
Q And I think we saw that
videotape that Mr. Tyson had played about her property and so forth?
A Yes.
Q What was you purpose, Mr. Minton, of going to
Ms. Slaughter -- and very briefly, who is she?
A Benetta Slaughter is the president of a company
called AMC Publishing, which is where Lisa McPherson
worked, first in Dallas, and then Benetta Slaughter moved
the company to Clearwater, and Lisa McPherson moved here
with here. Benetta Slaughter is the single person within
the Church of Scientology who is most responsible for
95
driving Lisa McPherson crazy.
Q Did you believe there was any activity going on
in her house when you over there that evening?
A Yes. What -- the last picture of Lisa alive is
a picture at a Halloween party at Benetta Slaughter's
house. Apparently, from what I had heard --
MR. TYSON: Objection.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Don't go into what you heard.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Did you believe there was some function going
on when you went over there, when you recently went
there, did you think there was a function going on?
A A Halloween function we thought was going on.
Q When you go there what did you learn?
A It was the night before, on Saturday, not the
Sunday.
Q And just to shorten things, as on Mr. Tyson's
tape that he played, you made comments about that, there
is the tent that was there for the party the night
before, and so forth?
A That's correct, yes.
Q What was your purpose then in staying there and
filming the way that you did? Why did you do that?
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A Ms. Brooks was -- she was amazed at the size of
Benetta's house. Ms. Brooks was in Scientology for a
very long time at the upper levels and she never saw the
types of money that Scientologists made by using Sea Org.
staff members to work.
Q So you wanted to film the --
MR. TYSON: Objection, leading.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: I didn't
finish.
THE DEFENDANT: Rephrase it
if you will. Can I correct it? I think I said something incorrectly there.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q I will.
A I didn't mean Sea Org staff members. I meant
public Scientologists, some of which are in the Sea
Organization.
Q So the purpose was to photograph the grounds?
A Yes.
Q But what the grounds there
encompass?
A Yes.
Q Did you go on the private
property?
A No.
Q You stayed either on the
right-of-way or on public property?
A That's correct.
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Q There is one part on there, Mr. Minton, where
it seems as if we hear a gate make a clanking sound.
What was that?
A Yeah, at the very back of the property there
was a gate that was partially open. It had a big chain
on it with a lock on the chain. I was -- at one stage I
was holding the camera up along the top of the gate, and
you know, I hit the gate and chain, which was sort of
bunched up dropped down and clanked against the thing.
The door opened a little bit, simply because it was, you
know, it was just chained, it wasn't chained tight. You could open it.
Q You never intruded into her property?
A No.
Q I think we hear you say
something on that video
to the effect of spontaneous picket, or something. What
is that? What did you do?
A Well, what I was referring to by spontaneous
picket is Scientology refers to things -- like the picket
that they had in front of the church that day when Stacy
Brooks went out there and picketed, they said this was a
spontaneous picket by church members, who were supplied
the picket signs by Richard Howd out of his car. You
can't get terribly spontaneous with that. So that's --
it was just kind of a joke.
98
Q A take off on that?
A Yeah.
Q And you walked up and down
a little bit, and
then ultimately left. Did you ever try to go on the
property to ring the doorbell, knock on the door,
anything like that?
A No.
Q So there is nothing off
that video that would
establish that you intruded onto the property, the
physical property?
A No.
Q After that was there a decision
made to go the
Church of Scientology property at The Fort Harrison?
A Again this -- yes, a decision was made. At some stage during that film
I referred to the van. I said the van went down the street.
Q Yes.
A That turned out to be one
of the private
investigators or OSA people who were following us. That
van as it turned out was parked at the end of that dead-
end street where Benetta Slaughter lived. The way we
found that out is when we went to leave we had to go down
to that end to turn around and go out. The van hurriedly
left as we came down there. Eventually, we met up on
Belcher, where Belcher intersected with Benetta
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Slaughter's road, which it was mentioned on the videotape
what the name of that road was. I don't recall it. But
the van had gone, it was a street that was sort of
catacorner across from Benetta Slaughter's road on the
other side of Belcher, and the van had gone in there with
another car. The van was facing in, and the other car
was facing out. The other car that was facing out was
parked on the side of the road and flashed its lights,
you know, towards us, it seemed. Seemingly just to taunt
us, that you know, here is another car load here. So
again I said if they are going to all this trouble to
these guys follow us all night let's just go down The
Fort Harrison and do another quick picket before we go back to the hotel.
Q Mr. Minton, when that starts you and Stacy
Brooks are walking towards a building, which is not The
Fort Harrison building and a van appears to come around
and jump out of the way. Do you remember that part?
A I do.
Q Tell us about how that occurred?
A You know, I really wasn't paying a lot of
attention, which is probably why -- I don't know how it
occurred, other than the fact that I wasn't paying
attention and this was alley way which a van came out of.
I just wasn't paying attention.
100
Q You don't -- do you know what the Flag insignia
is?
A I don't remember whether it had that or not.
Q Then you go and do the picket in front of the
Scientology building and it was captured by Ms. Brooks as
well as the others on videotape?
A Right, we have seen all of those tapes.
Q And are they fairly accurate as far as far as
what occurred?
A Yes.
Q Let's go back a little bit
of time, Mr. Minton,
to establish in part what your state of mind was at the
time that this incident occurred around the corner
between you and Mr. Howd and you are saying, "Hit me one
more time."
A Yes.
Q That area?
A Yes.
Q And then what you did after
that until the time
you put the placard out.
A Uh-huh.
Q Was there an incident about the manner in which
a member of the Office of Special Affairs act towards you
when you are criticizing the church in that quorum that
occurred back in Boston the year before?
101
MR. TYSON: Objection, relevance,
Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Is that in part how you were treated -- did
that impact you on how Mr. Howd was acting towards you at
the time on the assault on you and later your actions
towards him?
A It did.
Q And, Mr. Minton, have you viewed what has been
marked Defendant's Exhibit 10 for identification, and I
will just tell you that purports to be the Boston
incident, have you seen this?
A Yes, I have.
(The videotape hereinafter referred to was marked as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 10 for identification.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Are you in this video?
A l am.
Q Does it accurately reflect what happened and
what was said at the time it was happening?
A It does.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Your
Honor, I would
102
offer into evidence Defendant's Exhibit Number 10.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. TYSON: Same objection
I had, relevance, Judge.
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
It will be admitted and so marked.
(The videotape heretofore marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 10 for
identification was received into evidence.)
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: May
I publish it to the jury?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
Q Mr. Minton, what I am going to do at this point
in time, and I want you to understand the purpose of
this, it is going to be segments, okay, and they are
going to fade out. If you need to say anything based upon
that segment okay, just give me a sign and I will --
MR. TYSON: Judge, I would
prefer that he ask questions.
MR. DENIS DE VLANING: I will
do it that way.
THE COURT: Okay.
103
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: I am
going to stop it after each segment then and do it that way.
(Whereupon, the videotape was played for the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q First of all, what time of day was this, and
tell us the location where this was shot?
A This is on Beacon Street in Boston, the corner
of Beacon and Harriford Street. The Church of
Scientology's Org as they call it, organization. And
it's about 3:00 in the afternoon.
Q Approximately, how long did this particular
picket take place, in time?
A Gosh, I mean it was really short, fifteen
minutes, ten minutes, something like that.
Q Was there a time when it began to escalate
until the where ambulance was called and you were then
accused of a crime? Did it start to escalate to that
direction?
A Jesse Prince and I arrived there and started
picketing in front of the church and it escalated the
second two guys from the Church of Scientology, Kevin
Hall and Frank Offman ran out the front door and started
screaming at us. I mean Frank Offman mainly screaming at
me. And the other guy, Kevin Hall, mainly photographing
104
and talking with Jesse.
Q Okay, I am going to identify Offman in a
minute. Is that the one that is going to be, for lack of
a better term, yelling at you, or in your face?
A Yes.
Q And who was the one holding
the video camera at
the end? What is his name?
A His name is Kevin Hall.
Q What is he in the Church of Scientology, do you know?
A Well, he is a minister, but he's OSA, he is in
charge of their department for dealing with psychiatric
groups. He heads a up the activities of a group called
CCHR, which is Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which
is Scientology main group to attack psychiatry, which
they feel is one of their major enemies.
MR. DENIS DE VLANING: Let's go ahead and
take the next segment.
(Whereupon, the videotape was played for
the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Okay, now in particular in that segment, the black man, what is his
name?
A Jesse Prince.
Q Is he a member of the Lisa McPherson Trust, or
105
does he somehow do some work for them?
A Yes, he does. He was formerly the number two
man in the Church of Scientology worldwide.
Q And now he is on?
A On the board of the Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q In that segment we see this man, what appears
to be, and the video will speak for itself, blocking Mr. Offman?
A Yes.
Q What was going on at that
point in time? What
was Offman trying to do at that time?
A Well, Offman had been right at me, and yelling and screaming, and you
know Jesse could see that Offman was getting really heated there. He was
trying to keep him away from me.
(Whereupon, the videotape was played for
the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q The walking backwards --
A Yes.
Q As you are walking forwards
--
A Yes.
Q Okay. How did that occur,
and what significance on your state of mind as far now bringing it to
Clearwater did that have on you?
106
A Well, you can't move. You are just -- you have
got a guy who is right on top of you. It -- you know,
it's like claustrophobia, you are just locked in there.
You can't -- if you turn around he will get on the other
side in front of you. You turn around again he gets back
where he was. That's the state of siege that these guys
have done on occasion to me when I am picketing.
Q Now we see Mr. Offman being like bumped up onto
a planter, and then we hear a voice saying, "Did you get
that, did you get that? Call them now." Is that an
OSA's voice, or that your group's voice?
A That's Kevin Hall's voice.
Q Kevin Hall is from Church of Scientology?
A Right.
Q Saying, "Did you get that, did you get that?"
A Yeah.
(Whereupon, the videotape
was played for the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Was that indicative of which Offman conducted
himself toward you that day?
A Yes.
(Whereupon, the videotape
was played for the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
107
Q Is that your voice, "Did you see that guy hit me?" Was that
your voice?
A Yes, that was my voice.
(Whereupon, the videotape was played for the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q What had he done just then?
A He knocked my camera down.
Q Had you done anything to
him at that point in time?
A No.
Q Is that the minister from
OSA?
A That's right, yes. Offman
is also a minister.
(Whereupon, the videotape
was played for the jury.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Were the police called?
A They were.
Q By OSA, Church of Scientology
side?
A Yes. No, actually I called
them. I am standing there talking on the cell phone. I called them.
Q And when they got there
this fellow, Offman, had -- we hear a stick hit the ground?
A Yes.
Q What was that stick made
out of?
108
A Balsa wood.
Q A light wood? When we see you go like that to him, was that a piece
of balsa wood?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Was the ambulance called
in that situation?
A It was, yes.
Q Did it take that man that
was in your face before away?
A It did, yes.
Q Did he ever hit the ground or fall as if he was injured?
A No.
Q But he complained of injury
and asked to hospitalized?
A Yes, he did, and they stiffed the ambulance for the charges.
MR. TYSON: Judge, we need
to approach on this.
THE COURT: Approach, please.
(Whereupon, a bench conference
was held outside the hearing of the jury.)
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: I didn't know he was going to say that.
MR. TYSON: If I had a witness
do that you would throw this case out right now.
109
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Well, he wouldn't do that.
THE COURT: Probably not, but
I understand your --
MR. TYSON: You better believe
that he would be jumping down -- He would tear me apart.
THE COURT: Mr. Tyson, are
you here for a
reason other than to tell me what I might do in another
circumstance?
MR. TYSON: Yes, Judge, I'm
sorry. Sorry,
I apologize, I lost my temper a little bit.
THE COURT: What would you
like me do?
MR. TYSON: Judge, I would
like for you to
instruct the jury, and I'd like you to instruct the
witness to answer the question and no other question.
I'd like to apologize
for what I said.
THE COURT: That's all right.
I have no
problem instructing the jury or the witness. Okay.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury you are
to disregard the last comment made by the witness. Mr.
Minton, please answer the questions only.
THE DEFENDANT: I'm sorry,
your Honor.
THE COURT: That's all right.
Please proceed.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
110
Q Let me show you what has been marked as
Defendant's Exhibit Number 11 for identification. Do you
recognize that?
A I do, yes.
(The photograph hereinafter
referred to was marked as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 11
for identification.)
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Were you present when it was taken?
A I was.
Q Are you in the photograph
itself?
A l am.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: At this
time, your
Honor, I would offer into evidence Defendant's Exhibit 11.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. TYSON: No.
THE COURT: It will be admitted
and so marked.
(The photograph heretofore marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 11 for identification was received
into evidence.)
111
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Was this photograph taken sometime during the
time that this video was also taken?
A It was.
Q What does it depict?
A It depicts Mr. Offman just sort of up like this
just forcefully making a point of screaming in my face.
Q Let's go back now to October 31st, and let's
specifically go to you and Mr. Howd and the manner in
which that picket took place. The video will speak for
itself. But I want you to tell the jury what happened as
you rounded that corner, and I think you here say the
statement, "What if I pull this out of hour hand?" Or
whatever that is, do you know that area of the tape?
A Yes.
Q Tell us what was happening
then and then put it
into focus about what had happened earlier, and your
state of mind?
A Well, you know, Mr. Howd was -- this had been
going on all day, this effort by them to intimidate
myself and Ms. Brooks into stopping the activity we were
trying to do, namely to protest against Scientology.
Mr. Howd, as you've seen on the videos, his
close, his close proximity, you know whenever he's around
me during the day with that camera. He's at my hotel, you
112
know, when I came to Clearwater that weekend, the weekend
of October 31st, the Friday, I learned that the Church of
Scientology had followed my 14 year old daughter to Long
Island and this is -- I have been constantly, since 1997,
under siege by these people. I do not wish to shuddered
into silence which is what they want me to be, shuddered
into silence. Their top executives, their number two man,
their number three man, the head of OSA, they have
pleaded with me, they have put agreements in front of me
to settle my differences with Scientology, but most
importantly, to stop giving money for this Lisa McPherson
case.
Q Mr. Minton, I guess that begs the question, if
Mr. Howd as Mr. Offman was in your space so to speak, why
not just walk off, why not just walk across the street
and get away from him?
A That's the point that I am trying to get to,
that's what they you want to do. They want you to go
away and stop being a critic of Church of Scientology.
It is my right as an American citizen to demonstrate
against something that I see is wrong. The abusive and
deceptive activities, that they perpetrate within this
OSA.
Q Let's get back to around the corner then.
Okay, we see what we see as far as how close he was.
113
Tell me what happened when you rounded the corner?
A You know he was close, I
am holding this sign
like this. I've got my left hand out on that sign. The
strap is right there. I put my thumb on the strap like
this, "What if I take this out of your hands?" Then I
turned away. In the videotape what you see when I turned
away is something causes me to turn around and say, "Oh,
you think so." You know, there was -- I can't imagine
that I turned --
Q The video will speak for itself. Okay. Then
you say, "Oh, you think so." You turn towards him.
A Yeah.
Q And then what does he do
that causes this sign to buckle?
A Howd comes pushing into me with his camera
right into that sign that causes it to buckle, not crack,
but you know, because it is foam cord, it doesn't break.
It cracks the spine of it, sort of. You know, as far as
I am concerned he was assaulting me. You know there is
no reason to think on my part, given the stuff that has
gone on with these guys before in Boston and elsewhere,
you know, there is no reason to think that these guys are
not going to do the same thing.
Q Is that what caused you to say what you did on
tape, and that is, "You are assaulting me." You were
114
accusing him of assaulting of you?
A Yes.
Q This is State's Exhibit
Number 1 in evidence, and is this the placard?
A It is, yes.
Q Were you holding it so the red hands were out?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Was this the area, the creased area that Howd had hit?
A It would appear so.
Q This wasn't there in the photographs before that?
A No, it wasn't.
Q After that happened, after you said, "You
assaulted me, you assaulted me." We hear you say, you
walk back to the corner and say, "It's time to call the
police." Or words to that effect?
A Yeah.
Q Correct?
A Yes.
Q And we see you take out
your cell phone?
A Right.
Q Were you calling the police?
A I was.
Q Why were you calling the
police at that point?
115
A Well, it had just gotten out of hand. You
know, it was getting out of hand. They were coming after
me and coming after me, it was out of hand, and I wanted
the police to come there. The police come there and they
stop them from doing this.
Q As you began to make the call we see you step
off the curb and head across the street, or north. Why
were you going in that direction?
A First of all the car is parked over there
behind the Peace Memorial Presbyterian Church.
Q Your car?
A Yes, my car. And so I am crossing the street
number one, to get away from him. Number two, to be able
to talk in private to the police.
Q Okay, and as you started to leave and go back
to your car for that purpose what did you notice behind
you?
A Howd.
Q And what were your thoughts
at that point as to
why he would continue to follow you off that property?
What was your thought process then?
A That he could be coming to do the same thing
that Offman did.
Q And when you picked the sign up, I think the
words were, "Don't you follow me." I am paraphrasing,
116
the video will be the best.
Do you recall making that statement?
A Yes.
Q And your intentions at the time that you held
the sign saying, "Don't you follow me." Were what?
A To keep him away from me.
Q Did you ever mean to hurt
the man?
A No.
Q Based upon him coming in contact with the sign,
were you surprised that he went to the ground?
A Yes, I was really surprised.
Q Did you see a familiar pattern
as far as the
calling of ambulances and that type of thing?
A I wasn't watching that
side of it very much,
because the police car came fairly quickly, so I was
talking to the police officer, but yes, I did see the
ambulance show up.
Q Just like Boston?
A Right.
Q Based on that incident, Mr. Minton, was there
an injunction filed against you to keep you away from
almost twenty areas of church property around the city?
A Yes, there was.
Q Is it still effect to keep
you away from those
117
areas a certain distance?
A Yes. First there was a temporary restraining
order that was filed ex parte, which means without any
notice to the party. And so they got a rather wide
ranging 450 feet away from every Scientology property in
Clearwater.
Q But there is currently an injunction in place
that went through system, correct?
A Yes. That original temporary injunction was
modified once a hearing was held.
Q I don't need you to go into details, Mr.
Minton. I am just asking you, there is one in effect.
Was it the same way from Howd, or stay away from Howd, as
well as all church properties, whether he was on them or
not? What did they ask for?
A Scientology asked for an injunction to stay
away from all Scientology properties. I didn't ask for
anything, but the court granted an injunction to keep
Howd 20 feet away from me. And me 10 feet away from
Scientology properties.
Q All Scientology properties in the city,
correct?
A The major ones, yes.
Q Were there lines painted by Scientologists to
make sure that you kept 10 feet away?
118
MR. TYSON: Objection, relevance,
Judge.
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: How is it relevant,
Mr. de Vlaming?
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Just as a follow up to the injunction.
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Mr. Minton, based upon the manner in which you
have been treated at the hand of this organization have
you stopped getting the word out?
A No, sir.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Cross examination,
Mr. Tyson?
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. TYSON:
Q So you can still picket in Clearwater, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And you can still picket in front of The Fort
Harrison?
A No, I can't.
Q Why not?
A There's no point on that sidewalk that's 10
feet away from the building.
Q That's not the issue today. Mr. Minton, is it
119
fair to say that you and your followers have an abiding
hatred of the Church of Scientology?
A First of all, Mr. Tyson, I don't have any followers. Secondly --
Q Mr. Prince or Mr. Oliver,
or Stacy Brooks --
A I am not a cult leader.
Q I didn't say that you were.
A I have no followers. I have people who share
the same viewpoint concerning Scientology. To answer the
second part of your question first, I have no hatred
towards the Church of Scientology and its members. I do
not hate their belief system. I find it to be an
extremely colorful belief system among new age religions.
Q Do you recognize it as a legitimate religion?
A No, I don't.
Q You say that you have a right to demonstrate,
correct?
A Correct.
Q Do they have a right to practice what they
believe as their religion?
A They do. But they don't have a right to
practice the type of investigative services that the
Office of Special Affairs carries out.
Q I didn't ask you that question. Do they have a
right to practice their religion?
120
A They do.
Q Has the church ever sued you?
A No, it hasn't.
Q So all of this time the church has never once
sued you personally, correct?
A That's correct.
Q But you have financed a civil suit against
them, which you are not even a party to, wouldn't that be
correct?
A I am going to explain what finance means.
Q Let me clarify, I am asking the questions here.
Does the Lisa McPherson Trust give money --
A No.
Q How does Mr. Dandar in the civil suit, do you
provide directly or indirectly any money to him to help
him go through the suit?
A I have given money to the family of Lisa
McPherson to pay Mr. Dandar the expenses of prosecuting a
lawsuit, which is extremely expensive, and the family
doesn't have the money to get the truth out about what
happened to Lisa Mcpherson.
Q Fair enough. So, whether directly or
indirectly you are helping to finance the civil suit
against the Church of Scientology, is that correct?
A Approximately a year and a half after it
121
started, yes, I did start at the suggestion of one of the
Church of Scientology lawyers.
Q I am not trying to play games with you. The
answer to that would be, yes, you are financing it,
correct?
A I really think that it is important to
characterize what financing is. I am giving the money to
them to do it. They don't have to pay me any interest,
they don't have to do anything if they lose the case. If
they win the case --
Q Okay. I am not trying to put words in your
mouth. You give them money, whether you expect anything
in return or not, you are giving them money to further
the suit?
A Absolutely.
Q Let's talk about that Boston video. It's
rather inflammatory?
A Yes.
Q It is, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Howd isn't there, right?
A He's not.
Q The two middle-aged women, and this about a
year before the incident occurred at The Fort Harrison
that we are doing here today?
122
A This Boston incident, yes.
Q 1998, somewhere around 1998?
A September '98, I think it
was.
Q It's about a year prior
to this incident?
A That's right.
Q Mr. Howd is not there. The
two middle age
women that we see on the videotapes that are in evidence
at The Fort Harrison are not there either, are they?
A No.
Q The gentleman, the tall
guy who has got his
hands in his pockets at The Fort Harrison?
A No, he is not there.
Q Mr. Minton, based on that altercation there,
now before you go there to demonstrate you have to notify
the police beforehand?
A No.
Q You don't have to notify anybody beforehand?
A No.
Q At one time did you have
to notify anybody
before you would go there to protest, after this
occurred?
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Objection,
clarification. Do you mean in Clearwater?
MR. TYSON: No, Boston.
BY MR. TYSON:
123
Q Before you go to Boston are you required --
have you ever been required to notify the police or the
Scientologists before you come picket?
A The prosecutor dropped this case in Boston on
the condition that for 120 days I would give the Church
of Scientology in Boston an hour notice before coming to
picket.
Q So it was an agreement to try and resolve that
situation somehow, is that fair to say?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Now, we see somebody narrating that. Is that
Mark Bunker doing that?
A It is, yes.
Q Now, obviously he is not narrating while it's
happening. This film was pieced together?
A That's right.
Q Does Mr. Bunker work for you, or does he
receive money directly or indirectly from you, whether
out of your pocket, or the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A He works for the Lisa McPherson Trust, yes.
Q Do you fund that?
A I among others fund it, but I am the principal
contributor.
Q When you say the principal funder of that, can
you tell what percentage that would be?
124
A Seventy-five percent.
Q And Mr. Prince is in the video. Does he get
any money from the Trust, or from you at all?
A He does, he is a paid employee of the Trust.
Q It is fair to say that that tape is edited and
narrated, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q We just saw there are little clips of it?
A Yes.
Q What was the purpose of
making that, because
you have had that for awhile, right? Why did you make
that and narrate the tape, why was it done?
A I believe Mr. de Vlaming instructed Mr. Bunker
to make it.
Q And there's more footage that the jury hasn't
seen, isn't there?
A There is, yes.
Q And, in fact, on that footage, isn't true that
we don't see that you were calling them fucking ass
holes?
A That's correct.
Q Isn't it true that on that video the jury
hasn't seen you calling them, excuse my language, cock
sucking little motherfuckers?
A I don't think I did. I don't think I did.
125
Q Is it possible?
A A lot of things were said out there on that
sidewalk.
Q So when you watch this tape it is really not
that fair of depiction of what happened, there are only
statements by the people from Scientology that you have
on the tape. There are a lot of statements that you made
and Mr. Prince made that jury hasn't had the opportunity
to hear, wouldn't it be fair to say?
A There are a lot of statements that they made
that the jury didn't have a chance to hear either.
Q Fair enough. But there are a lot that you said
A That's correct. That's correct.
Q -- and Prince said that's
not on there?
A That's correct.
Q In and of themselves they
are extremely
inflammatory, wouldn't you agree?
A Uh-
Q The statements that you
and Mr. Prince made
were very inflammatory, wouldn't you agree with that?
A Well, I want to characterize
something here
because --
Q If you call somebody a cocksucker,
is that inflammatory or not?
126
A Did you hear on the videotape when they accused
Jesse Prince of fucking my twelve year old daughter? Did
you hear that too?
Q I am the one who is asking the questions.
A I'm sorry.
Q I get to ask them. Mr. de Vlaming asked the questions.
A There were a lot of inflammatory statements made.
Q Let me finish. Mr. de Vlaming go to ask the questions, you provided
the answers. If I had an objection I objected, approached the bench, the
Judge
made a call. I get to ask the questions now.
A I'm sorry.
Q I don't want to get contentious. On that video, Mr. Prince is on there.
He is protesting with you that day, right?
A That's correct,
Q Doesn't he say while he is there to the
Scientologists, which we don't see on this video, "I
fucked your mother." Doesn't he tell people, "I fucked
your mother." That is a favorite phrase of his, isn't
it? "I fucked your mom, and I'm you daddy."
A Yeah, he did say that to Frank Offman.
127
A No.
Q Would it be fair to say
that when somebody
tells somebody, "I fucked your mother." That they would
be mad? Would it be fair to say that?
A The purpose of Mr. Prince -- obviously, it was
inflammatory and it wasn't encouraging Mr. Offman to be
civilized either, but Mr. Prince was trying to get Offman
on him and not on me, to get him off of me.
Q The question was, isn't that inflammatory when
you--
A It is inflammatory, there's no doubt about
that.
Q Would it make somebody mad? It would make
somebody, wouldn't it?
A It wasn't making him mad.
Q That guy was pretty upset?
A He was upset before. He was upset the second
he walked out the door.
Q Calling somebody a fucking asshole, or saying
somebody fucked your mother, that may set somebody off,
wouldn't it?
A Not him.
Q So, I guess would it be fair to say Mr. Minton
that you guys were there provoking them, but we don't see
that in the video? We just see your sanitized version
128
that is narrated? The jury doesn't have the full benefit of knowing exactly
what happened there?
A Mr. Tyson, when we went there we went there
with the intention of picketing, having a peaceful
picket.
Q That's not my question. The jury has seen a
sanitized version of what happened that day. There's a
lot more that happened and isn't true that you were there
to provoke them by calling them cock suckers, mother
fuckers, I fucked your mother, isn't that true?
A Mr. Tyson, that is so far from the truth.
Q So if you weren't doing that, you weren't
calling those names to provoke them?
A Absolutely not.
MR. TYSON: Judge, may I have
a moment?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Okay, Mr. Minton, let's talk about the
picketing activities, okay. Would you agree that when
somebody is protesting or picketing that they are not
allowed to do whatever they want? Is that a fair
statement?
A That is correct, yes.
Q So if I was to picket outside a car dealership
because they sold me a lemon, would it be fair to say it
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wouldn't be picketing if I was going to the dealership at
night?
A I'm sorry, say that again.
Q Would it be fair to say that if I was picketing
a dealership during the day I would be getting my message
out. Would it be really picketing if I went there at
night and let's say damaged their cars with my picket
sign, that wouldn't be picketing, would it? Just because
you have a picket sign in your hand doesn't mean that you
are picketing?
A No, it wouldn't be smart to go to their place
at night and that, no, or effective.
Q You want a crowd there, don't you, when you are
picketing? I mean you want to have as many people as you
can to hear your message?
A That's the ideal, yes.
Q So making obscene gestures while you are
picketing, would that be effective picketing? Is that
lawful picketing in your mind?
A It's lawful picketing. Whether it is effective
is probably doubtful.
Q You have that picket sign in your hand, do you
think it would be fair for you to make at the car
dealership racially offensive remarks if they have a
Black mechanic or a Black car salesman there?
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MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Judge, may we approach?
THE COURT: Please approach.
(Whereupon, a bench conference
was held
outside the hearing of the jury.)
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Your Honor, the
record doesn't know this, but now it will, there are two
African American jurors on this jury. I think to ask a
question as to whether or not any kind of hypothetical
whether or not it would be racist to picket a business of
bad automotive -- whatever it is, is totally improper.
MR. TYSON: Judge, I was going
to go through different
religions, ages, Jewish, Black, if their White, if they Christian, give
him a whole list to
see what Mr. Minton has to say. Because according to him
he knows what lawful picketing is, and that's what he is doing.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Aren't we getting far afield from the incident.
MR. TYSON: We are far, Denis,
and you are the one that started this.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: I object to this area.
THE COURT: I'm uncomfortable
with the area. I appreciate the objection. But you have given me
131
a decent reason why I should let you do it, and please be respectful.
Don't take it any farther afield than this trial has clearly gotten.
MR. TYSON: I will.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Judge,
is the Court
going to allow him to ask about racism?
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Mr. Minton, would you agree that if you found
somebody prowling around in your living room in the dark
and they have got a picket sign in their hand, that
doesn't mean they are picketing? Would that be a fair statement?
A If you found somebody prowling around in your living room?
Q In your living room at night, you wake up and there they are, I am picketing?
A That would be --
Q First amendment right, I am picketing?
A It's not their right.
Q So there are certain time, manner, and place
limitations on picketing, would you agree with that?
For lawful picketing, time, manner, and place?
A I wouldn't see that time is a particular issue.
Manner, I wouldn't see as a particular issue. Place, you
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know, is obviously an issue in the example you gave.
Q Now, we see you in your video, and this the one
that Stacy Brooks took, you walking up to The Fort
Harrison Hotel at 10:30 at night on October 31st.
Obviously, you are there. I am not trying to put words
in your mouth, and I talked to Mr. Oliver about this, and
I am not trying to belittle your cause, but I don't know
that much about either organization, so when I say anti-
Scientologists, just take it for what it is worth when I
say that.
A I will take it --
Q You are trying to get that type of message out?
A I will strongly object to anti-Scientologists,
I am not going to let you adopt that in characterizing me
as anti-Scientologists.
Q I don't want to mis-state what your purpose is.
You know, I don't care what you are picketing for.
A We are a Scientology watch-dog group.
Q Okay. That's fair enough. So as Scientology
watch dog group when you are walking up there with your
sign, as you are walking up to the building, what message
are you giving out the public, because you want the
public to hear the message, when you call those people
cockroaches?
A Well, I'll give you an example --
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Q No, I just asked you a question. What kind of
message are you sending out. You are walking up with the
sign saying, "Go ahead and run like cockroaches." What
kind of-
A Like the cockroaches that
fed off of Lisa McPherson's body is what I said.
Q Sir, you analogizing those people as
cockroaches, what message are you sending?
A The messages I said is they were scurrying like
the cockroaches that fed off of Lisa McPherson's body, on
the cockroach feeding sites inside that hotel they were going into.
Q What message were you sending to the public when you said that?
A There were no public on that sidewalk.
Q But you felt a need to say that anyway? Wasn't
it true that you said it to provoke them?
A No, it wasn't to provoke. They don't even know
what happened to Lisa McPherson.
Q Sir, you are shown on one of the tapes that
have seen earlier back on February 6, 2000. I guess it
is a little after midnight. You are there with Frank
Oliver, and he has the laser pen, and you are standing
right beside him when he is doing it?
A Right.
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Q And you are picketing to get your message out
and he is with you. What kind of message is being sent
at that point in time to further your cause?
MR. DENIS DE VLMAING: Judge, I am going
to object the question. Does he mean Mr. Oliver's
conduct, or of his conduct?
MR. TYSON: Judge, they were
together doing it. There was a group doing this. There always is a group
doing this. If the Scientologists are group when they are against them,
then he is a group when he is against Scientologists.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Judge, the basis of
my objection, your Honor, is it calls for a conclusion if
he is asking him what another person is doing, or what is
in the mind of the other person.
THE COURT: I didn't understand
his question to do that, but to the extent that you feel the need to rephrase
it, please do that.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q What kind of message are you sending when your
group is out there shining a laser light at people, how
are you furthering your message, sir?
A I just want to explain one thing to you to
answer your question, what Mr. Oliver was doing had
nothing to do with me. I didn't tell Mr. Oliver to bring
135
a laser light, I don't even know what a laser light is, Mr. Tyson.
Q You saw me in court with it in court earlier, right?
A Yes, I saw the red dot up here. Now I know
when a camera is pointed at somebody a red light hits them too.
Q No, wait a second. That's a little bit
different. That points right on the person.
A No, I am not minimizing what a laser light is.
I am just saying now I understand what that means. But
Mr. Oliver, you know, I had nothing to do with Mr. Oliver
using that laser light. It is not something that I would
have done.
Q So you are distancing yourself from on that
occasion. That wouldn't be what you would do?
A Everybody has a right to handle their own view
of protest. I am not telling Mr. Oliver what to say. He
doesn't tell me what to say. Ms. Brooks doesn't tell me
what say. Mr. Bunker doesn't tell me what to say. My
sign had two messages on it.
Q Sir, you said as a group, your whole defense is
as a group the Scientologists are harassing you?
A The Scientologists as a group are harassing me.
Q Now, as a group anything that one Scientologist
136
does, like Mr. Offman up there from Boston, he is painted
with the same brush here in this courtroom as you painted
Mr. Howd. Okay, let me finish my question.
How is that Mr. Oliver is with your group, your
group against the group, how is that sending out the
message?
A Mr. Howd and Mr. Offman are interchangeable,
they are part of the Office of Special Affairs. They are
different than Lisa McPherson, they are different than
any other public Scientologists. They are in a group
that is designed to go after people they consider
enemies.
Q It almost sounds as if you think of them as
machines, robots, is that what you are saying? Is that
the way you think of them, or do you think of them as
people?
A Like I said, I've got a lot a good friends who
used to be OSA, and former Scientologists are among the
nicest people that I have ever known in my life.
Q I am not talking about former Scientologists.
A I don't believe that those Scientologists are
fully in control of their actions. I believe that their
actions are being controlled by someone else.
Q So, basically they don't know any better, and
you are there to tell them what they need to think?
137
A They don't think for themselves, they follow
the policies, that's the nature of OSA.
Q And your job is tell them what to think, that
they don't need to think that way, they have got to think
differently?
A You know, getting across to OSA is not part of
my message by and large. Getting across to those people
-- it's too, you are not going to break through that
shell to OSA. Our message is not designed to get to OSA.
Q Sir, what type of message do you send when you
are protesting, when you go the Church of Scientology and
start taunting the members, what is your message that you
are putting out there? What is your message to the
public that you are trying to get out?
A Which members are you talking about taunting?
The OSA members that are on the sidewalk in front of the
hotel that night?
Q The ones that you are telling run and hide.
A Those are all Sea Org members too.
Q So does that make them "Fair Game"?
A No, they are not "Fair Game". But they are
part and parcel of the policies that go on within that
organization that are wrong.
Q According to you?
A According to common acceptable behavior. I've
138
always said if the Church of Scientology wants to be
treated like a church they need to act like a church.
don't have any problems with their beliefs. I have
problems with their actions.
Q Their beliefs don't conform with yours then you
have problem with it, would that be fair to say?
A No, this is not what I am saying. You know,
would you like for me tell you their beliefs so that you
can make that decision yourself? I don't have any
problems with their beliefs. I have a problem with their
actions.
Q Sir, I get to ask the questions. What kind of
message did you sent, what kind of message are you
putting out, because that is why you have got the sign.
What kind of message do you send when you tell church
members that you have had sex with their mother? What
kind of message are you trying to send out when you are
protesting?
A No message.
Q There's none. In fact, that's provoking them,
isn't it?
A It could be provocative, yes.
Q Could be?
A Yes.
Q That is some heavy-duty
stuff now when you are
139
talking about having sex with
somebody's mother, and
that's not the way you are saying it on the tapes.
That's not the way you say it. Is it fair to say that I
had sex with your mom, right?
A That's right.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: I object, this has been asked and answered. This
is the second time we have gone over this.
MR. TYSON: Judge, we are going
over now the message that is being sent out, his lawful protest.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Sir, it is message of hate, isn't it?
A No.
Q It's not?
A I don't put out any messages of hate toward Scientology.
Q But you will agree that it is a message or provocation, isn't it?
A The quote that you are referring to, there was no Scientologist even
around.
Q I'm talking about Boston?
A I didn't say that.
Q Jesse Prince is saying that, and he is with you? You made other statements
and then you cocksuckers,
140
fucking assholes, motherfuckers. Provocative statements,
wouldn't you agree?
A The way Mr. Offman was attacking me, he was all
of those things.
Q Now, you went to Benetta Slaughter's house at
night time, correct?
A Correct.
Q And that is so Stacy Brooks could see what a
nice house she had, right?
A That was one of the purposes. The principle
purpose was to picket this Halloween party.
Q Wouldn't you agree that when you start going to
somebody's resident where their family is that is a
provocative act also, and that will provoke people?
A I'm trying to think whether it has provoked my
wife, my children when they were followed.
Q Sir, you have already testified to that with
Mr. de Vlaming. Now it's my turn. Now it's my turn.
This isn't a one-way street, you don't get say how they
provoked and you didn't do anything.
A Benetta Slaughter, as was stated by Mr. de
Vlaming, she is not a high-ranking official of Church of
Scientology. She is a public Scientologist.
Q All the more reason not to go to her house?
A Not in my opinion.
141
Q Not in your opinion, a lot of things are not in
your opinion, are they, Mr. Minton? It's either your way
or the highway, isn't that true?
A That's not true, Mr. Tyson.
Q Now, you went to Ms. Slaughter's house at
night. Now whether you think that she did something
wrong or not, you still went to her house at night where
she lives?
A That's correct.
Q That's correct. And one of the reasons you
said is so that Stacy Brooks could see her house?
A Yes.
Q The other reason that's
on the tape is a
spontaneous picket, right? That's what you said on the
tape?
A Right.
Q I saw one car drive down
the road on that tape.
What kind of message were you delivering in your picket
when you are standing in front of that woman's house at
10:00 at night, a Sunday night?
A That spontaneous picket and the purpose of
taking any photograph of it was to document it.
Q You could have went during the day, and in
fact, it's easier to see during the day, isn't it?
A That's right.
142
Q It looks like a pretty nice house, I would like
to see it. The problem is you got it when it's dark.
A Right.
Q You could have easily went
there during the
day, you are down here in Clearwater all the time, aren't
you?
A At that time, no, I wasn't. I mean, I did come
that day, yes. I had not been here, until we set this
office up in January I was not down here all the time.
And I'm still not down here all the time, I spend at
least half a month away from here.
Q You went there that night, would it be fair to
say that when you realized -- your intent also was you
said that they had a Halloween party, you said that you
wanted to go there, would it be fair to say that if they
were having that party there your purpose would have been
to picket those people in their private residence at a
party?
A That's correct.
Q It sort of begs the question then when you go
there and it's all dark, why didn't you just leave?
A Excuse me?
Q Why didn't you just leave? The people that you
are there to picket aren't there.
A We just took pictures. I don't really see
143
anything wrong with that.
Q I know you don't. You see something wrong when
they follow you, but you see nothing wrong when you go in
front of The Fort Harrison and make statements
analogizing them as cockroaches, and you go to their
private residences at night, you don't see anything wrong
with that, do you?
A I don't.
Q Is it fair to say, Mr. Minton, that when you
conducted those type of activities, and the words you say
against their church members, that they are going to keep
an eye out on you? Wouldn't that be common sense? They
would want to know when you are coming? I mean you are
going to people's houses?
A No, I don't think that is ordinary behavior.
Q So you don't think that it is ordinary behavior
for them to protect their church members?
A Yes, I think it is reasonable to have security
in Clearwater. Yes.
Q I mean the Pope has to switch guard, he is
protected.
A Yes.
Q He has intelligence?
A Yes.
Q So it is not unusual for
religions to protect
144
people. I mean ever since the beginning of time people
have fought about religion, haven't they?
A They have fought about religion.
Q So actually it is a good idea to keep an eye on
you if you are coming after them, wouldn't you agree?
A You know, I haven't gone after any Scientologists.
Q Mr. Minton, you didn't expect that that tape of
Benetta Slaughter's house would end up in this courtroom
today, did you?
A No, I didn't.
Q In fact, you don't want it in this courtroom
today, do you?
A I never objected to it.
Q You don't want anybody to see the activities
that you are up to, do you?
A They are here. You know, we didn't object to
having any of these videotapes. They accurately
reflected what happened.
Q So it's all right, no matter what you do as it
accurately reflects what happened?
A I didn't say that, Mr. Tyson, you are putting
words in my mouth.
MR. TYSON: Judge, may I have
a moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
145
BY MR. TYSON:
Q I'm going to get off of this Benetta Slaughter
thing. But just to wrap this up, it's fair to say that
you were there in hopes of having some type of
altercation or contact with somebody at that residence,
weren't you?
A Altercation, no. Contact, yes. Contact with
the people that we expected to be there, which would have
been several hundred Scientologists.
Q Uninvited contact at their personal residence,
right? It was uninvited, you didn't have an invitation?
A We weren't on her property, or in her house, or
inside the gate. We were on the public street, you know,
in the bypass that goes along the side of her house.
Q So that's fine then? At least Mr. Minton didn't get onto the property
of the Belleview Biltmore, did he, he stayed outside the property?
A You've got the name wrong, you mean Mr. Howd.
Q Mr. Howd, I'm sorry. You are up at the fence, you are opening her gate?
A I am not opening her gate, I made that real
clear that I didn't open her gate, it was chained.
Q Have you ever notified the Clearwater police
when you are going to picket at The Fort Harrison or any
other properties of Scientology?
146
A I have.
Q In fact, would it be fair
to say that Detective
Tom Miller at one point would be a contact for you to let
him know when you were coming? I'm not trying to put
words in your mouth.
A To let me know what?
Q So you can let them know when you are coming,
or you are in town?
A The Clearwater Police Department has advised in
the past that Scientology, their view towards me is so
bad that they would like to know sometimes.
Q There is nothing wrong with having a contact
person there, nothing at all. You feel that you are
threatened by these people and you want to get your word
out.
A The Clearwater police have received threats
concerning me about -- from Scientology they think.
Q There is nothing wrong with calling the police
and letting them know that you picketing there, is it
fair to say that, because you are exercising your first
amendment right to free speech?
A Correct.
Q And you do have contacts there, you can either
call the Clearwater Police Department, or Detective Tom
Miller, who you know. I don't know how well you know
147
him. That's not really the point. But there is contact
there just for you make sure if you think there is going
to be a problem that the police can standby?
A I have got to clarify because in October,
sometime in early October the City of Clearwater started
disallowing -- they disbanded the department that
monitored Scientology. And Tom Miller was part of that.
Q Sir, I'm not asking you a question.
A They don't want anymore calls about this.
Q They didn't disband 911, did they?
A No.
Q Okay.
A I'm not going to call --
THE COURT: Gentlemen, gentlemen.
Let
each other finish, the court reporter can only take down
one of you at a time, please.
THE DEFENDANT: You said that they didn't
disband 911. I am not going to call 911 just because I
am going to go show up to picket. And the Clearwater
Police Department that they don't like to receive these
annoying phone calls. They consider them annoying.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Sir, they are there on numerous
occasions
though when pickets are occurring, aren't they?
A Only -- they have typically only been there
148
when there was organized picketing. For example, the
only organized that has been done in front the Church of
Scientology here in Clearwater has been December 1999,
December 1998, December 1997, March 1997, and March 1996.
Those are the only organized pickets that have ever been
done where the Clearwater Police Department came out
there.
Q On October 31st, that was a Sunday night?
A It was.
Q You got there about 10:30 or so?
A Approximately, I don't know the time.
Q Is it fair to say not a lot of foot traffic
around to get your message out to, or vehicle traffic,
there is some, but not a lot, is there?
A That's right, not a lot.
Q You were there on October 31st, the night of
this incident, at The Fort Harrison, when you were there,
I believe one of those women, and I don't know which one,
called you a bigot, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they call you any other names besides that?
A I don't think so.
Q Just a bigot?
A Yes.
Q By the tapes, and you can
correct me if I sin
149
wrong, it doesn't appear that they are really raising
their voices, it's more of a conversational tone, would
you agree with that?
A That's right.
Q The only person who is loud is you, isn't that
correct?
A That's correct.
Q And Mr. Howd doesn't say a word that I can
recollect?
A No.
Q In fact, most people that
are there are pretty
polite to you, they are just telling you to go home,
would you agree with that?
A Yes.
Q So the night of October
31, 1999, is no where near, it is the other side of the spectrum from
Boston in 1998, isn't it?
A It's not.
Q Okay. Now, we had two middle-aged women there, right?
A Correct.
Q And there is a guy that just stands there with
his hands in his pockets, the tall guy?
A Right.
Q And mainly the women are
just telling you go
150
home, and go away?
A Correct.
Q Isn't it true that when
you were there nobody threatened you?
A I consider Mr. Howd's behavior threatening.
Q Do you consider your behavior right before you
got there at Ms. Slaughter's house threatening?
A Do I consider whose behavior?
Q Your behavior before you got there, when you
were at Ms. Slaughter's house at night, on Sunday night,
do you consider that threatening?
A No.
Q No one told you anything
other than to go home, did they?
A That's right.
Q Nobody called you a cockroach, did they?
A No.
Q Nobody called you a murderer,
or an adulterer,
or any other name, or a bigot, did they?
A No.
Q Do me a favor and stick
out your arm, your right arm, straighten it. How far would say that you
can reach?
A Twenty-four inches, thirty inches.
Q Extend it all the way now.
151
A That's not the way it was, it was this way.
Q How far can you reach now,
you can get me at quite a distance can't you?
A Yes.
Q And you know when you are
looking at the
videotape Mr. Howd is close sometime, pretty close?
A Yes.
Q But also when you look at
those videotapes you
see you walking down the sidewalk and -- let's put the
tapes together now, like I say we are talking this NFL
reverse-angle stuff, and you were intentionally walking
in front of him, don't you? You change course?
A No, there was that one time on the sidewalk in
front of The Fort Harrison that it appeared like that
happened, either I was moving or he was moving, it could
have been both of us.
Q All right. When you hit Mr. Howd you had to
turn and lunge at him to get him, didn't you?
A I didn't think that I lunged.
Q Well, the video will speak for itself, won't it?
A Yes.
Q And after you hit him, you walked away?
A I did.
Q Now, on that video the first
words out of your
152
mouth to the police before you had time to really reflect
is he walked into that sign. He didn't walk into that
sign at all, did he?
A Not after I saw the videotape, but Ms. Brooks
said, I heard her say that he walked into the thing, and
that's the first thing that I said.
Q Now, Ms. Brooks said that he walked into the
sign, but you are the one has the sign doing the hitting,
right? So you would have been in good position that he
didn't walk into sign either, wouldn't you?
A At the time I thought I was pushing, not hitting.
Q Okay. But when you review the videotape would
you agree that he didn't walk into the sign, that you hit him?
A A combination of the -- I mean he is making
forward progress and the sign is coming towards him.
Q Okay. He's got that video camera up to his eye
when you hit him, doesn't he?
A Yes.
Q And is it a free country, it is free for you to
protest, right? Is it free for him to walk behind you in
the street, even if he goes off the Scientology sidewalk
that in front of Scientologist's place, he can do that,
can't he? It's a free country.
153
A Under the circumstance, you know, I don't think
he should have been doing it. I was -- he had been in my
face with the camera.
Q Do you think that you should have hit him?
A I tried to push him away. It is what it was on the camera.
Q But your story to the police -- you didn't expect Officer Beaudette
to be right there, I mean he is right on you?
A I wasn't looking, no.
Q You didn't know he was there?
A No.
Q As he comes around, he gets
there pretty quick, doesn't he?
A Yes.
Q Within fifteen/twenty seconds,
maybe?
A I mean he was there really quick.
Q So you agree that you wouldn't enough time to
really reflect on making something up, so you just said
he walked into the sign?
A Yes, that's what I said. That's what I said to
him on the videotape.
Q Isn't it true that you made that up when you told him that?
A No, I didn't.
154
Q You were walking in front
of The Fort Harrison,
and I notice when you are walking in front, this is the
front of The Fort Harrison, I notice every once in awhile
you want to go down that side street where it is dark.
We watch you walk down the side street with the sign and
back?
A Yes.
Q At one point you walk down
the street there two
-- one is Jessica Burns, and I don't know the other
middle aged woman's name, they are there, they are
telling you to go home. There's a guy with his hands in
his pockets?
A Right.
Q You talk to them there.
They are in front of
the building though originally, and they walk around with you?
A Yes, they did.
Q Then your walking down the front, and then you
go walking around the side, just you and Mr. Howd.
A Uh-huh.
Q Just you and Mr. Howd, and as soon as you turn
around the side of that building that's when you say,
"How about if I grab that strap?" It's only you and him
around there when you did that, isn't that true?
A That's true, it wasn't just around the corner,
155
it was the second window.
Q Are we talking about five feet, ten feet?
A Twelve feet.
Q All right, a little further than this. It was
only you and him around that corner at that time, wasn't
it?
A That's right.
Q What type of message during your protest were
you sending out when you walked around that corner
holding that protest sign with Mr. Howd, and reached for
that strap, what kind of message were you sending out in
your protest, your lawful protest?
A For Mr. Howd to get that camera out of my face.
Q And you had to do it where no one else would
see you, didn't you?
A The camera, I am holding the sign like this,
the strap is right on my thumb almost. I catch it with
my thumb there. I don't even grab it. It doesn't pull
his camera down, there's now a single downward thing in
his camera. I am not pulling it, it is in my thumb.
Then I turn around and leave.
Q Is it fair to say that you didn't have to round
the corner of the building to do that?
A At that particular moment I was going to leave.
Q And leave Stacy behind?
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A No. She would come, we are only fifty feet
across the street at the Presbyterian Church parking lot.
Q It is fair to say since this trial was coming
up both of sides have seen these videos at least a
zillion times?
A Yes.
Q I know I have. When Stacy
is filming she is
lagging behind at that time too, there is nobody blocking
her, you should be able to hear something on her video?
Nobody blocks her at all, do they?
A No.
Q But you waited to tell Mr.
Howd about that at
the opportune moment when you go around the corner, don't
you? You didn't want Ms. Brooks to film that, did you?
A I didn't know where Ms. Brooks was. I didn't
know where the other camera guy, Crock was either. I
didn't know the policeman was there on the corner. I am
not looking around to see where everybody else is.
Q When you go around that corner, it is fair to
say that you knew you were alone with Howd at that time,
didn't you?
A Yes, I did. I mean Howd and I were there, I
didn't see who was behind me.
Q Mr. Minton, when somebody approaches you and
reaches for you it's a natural reaction to move your arm
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away, isn't it?
A I didn't reach for Mr. Howd.
Q You said, "What if I grab that strap?" Do you
got a strap in your hands?
A I think you are exaggerating something that is
a thumb on a strap.
Q But you grabbed his strap, didn't you?
A No, I didn't grab the strap.
Q What did you grab?
A I touched the strap.
Q So you just touched the strap after you told
him, "What if I take this out of your hand?"
A Right.
Q Would you consider that
an offensive move on
your part, you are on the offense when he has got this up
to his face?
A It was a demand to get sort of to get this
camera out of my face. That's really what it was.
Q Have you ever heard the term, Mr. Minton, and
people -- video cameras are everywhere nowadays, people
are filming their kids, they go to sporting events, and
while they are filming they are looking through one,
almost looking through eye of a straw. And somebody
says, "Did you get that?" "Well, no, I didn't see that,
I had the camera up to my eye." Even though they are
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filming it, you are at a unique disadvantage when you
have got a camera up to your eye as to what is going on,
wouldn't you say that? It's like looking at the world
through a straw, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q So, Mr. Howd was at a disadvantage
when you are
taking those offensive steps towards him, aren't you --
isn't he, he is very much at a disadvantage?
A I don't think so.
MR. TYSON: Judge, may I have
moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Mr. Minton, we talked about it being a natural
reaction if somebody reaches for you to put your arm out.
Would you agree that that is a natural reaction? It's
not unusual, I mean that happens.
A Not necessarily.
Q Not necessarily. It's a fair reaction, it's
not an unusual reaction is it?
A No.
Q Okay. And not being an unusual
reaction you
still at that point taking the second affirmative, and
offensive step to back him against that wall, don't you?
A I think if you look at the video, Mr. Tyson,
you have got the sequence incorrect. That is not what
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happens.
Q It will speak for itself, won't it?
A It will.
Q I believe it will.
A I believe you will see I turned away, took a
step forward, and then I turn around and say, "Oh, you
think so."
Q It is clear on that video, wouldn't you agree,
Mr. Minton, that you were on the offensive at that point
in time once you round that corner?
A No, sir, I don't think so.
Q Mr. Howd has got this camera up to his face
when you round the corner and all he has got is this,
that's all he's got. You are not trying to tell me that
he was on the offensive, are you?
A He was on the offensive, he was on the offensive by being in my face.
Q Okay. But when you do it it's different. Your
activities are different. When you go to people's houses
it is different. Is that what you are telling the jury?
A No, I'm not telling them that, and I'm not
saying that -- I don't think I am on trial here for going
to Benetta Slaughter's house.
Q You are on trial here because you committed a
battery, and your defense is --
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MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Judge,
I object to
the characterization of counsel, because he committed a
battery. That's for the jury to determine, not this lawyer.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Thank
you.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Mr. Minton, you are on trial here today, right?
A Yes.
Q And you are on trial for
the charge of battery?
A Yes.
Q And throughout the trial
you have been trying
to put the religion of Scientology on trial as your
defense saying that they have been provoking you. Isn't
that true? I mean you had Mr. Oliver here --
A Can I answer the question?
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: Objection,
Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Answer the question.
THE COURT: Do you want to
rephrase the question.
BY MR. TYSON:
Q Mr. Minton, this whole trial
you have been trying to put the religion of Scientology on trial as
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your defense, the "Fair Game Policy", isn't that true?
A No, we haven't been trying
to put the Church of
Scientology on trial.
Q But you found it necessary to produce Mr.
Oliver as a witness to testify about the alleged "Fair
Game Policy" back when he was there seven or eight years
before this even occurred. You did proffer him up here
as a witness, and he did testify. And he testified, sir,
that the church could provoke you, sue you, among other
things, right?
A Uh-huh, yes.
Q Now we know that the church hasn't sued you.
But you have financed a suit -- given money to the family
to sue the church.
A To continue the suit.
Q You have provoked them by calling them names,
which is not on your video that you have produced here.
You are provoking them on October 31, 1999. You weren't
putting your message out there, were you? You were there
to provoke them, you were there to pick a fight, you were
to get another video like Boston that you could parade
around and go, "Look what they did to me." Isn't that
why you were there?
A That is absolutely incorrect.
MR. TYSON: Judge, may I have
a moment?
162
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TYSON: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: I just
have a question.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DENIS DE VLAMING:
Q Mr. Minton, when Mr. Tyson asked you whether or
not the Catholic Church has a policy to protect its Pope
you said yes. Do you know any religion, other than
Scientology that has a policy to silence its critics?
A The Moonies.
Q That's a cult?
A It is.
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: That's
all I have.
MR. TYSON: I have no question,
Judge.
THE COURT: Thank you sir,
please step down.
(Whereupon, the witness stood aside.)
THE COURT: It's approximately
ten minutes after twelve. It is as good a time as any to take a break
for lunch. Does anybody disagree with that?
MR. DENIS DE VLAMING: No,
Judge.
THE COURT: Is an hour sufficient
for everyone? We are okay with an hour? Let's round it off.
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Let's just be back here at
ten minutes after one and
proceed from there. Okay, we are adjourned for lunch.
(Whereupon, court was recessed for lunch from 12:10 to 1:10 p.m.)
Closing
Arguments
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