IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08 ----------------------------------------X : RICHARD W. HOWD, JR., : : : Petitioner, : : vs. : : ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., : : Respondent. : ----------------------------------------x BEFORE: The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR. PLACE: ST. PETERSBURG JUDICIAL BUILDING 545 First Avenue North St. Petersburg, Florida 33701 DATE: February 07, 2000 TIME: 1:30 p.m. -5:30 p.m. REPORTED BY: DEBORAH M. WILLIAMS Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit Notary Public, State of Florida ------------------------------------------------ MOTION FOR CLARIFICATION ------------------------------------------------ Pages 1 - 140 ORIGINAL ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES COURT REPORTERS P.O. BOX 35 CLEARWATER, FLORIDA 34617-0035 (813) 443-0992 APPEARANCES FRED WALLACE POPE, ESQUIRE JOHNSON, BLAKLEY, & POPE 911 Chestnut Street Clearwater, Florida 33756 SANDY WEINBERG, ESQUIRE ZUCKERMAN, SPADER, TAYLOR, & EVANS 401 E. Jackson Street Suite 2525 Tampa, Florida 33602 Attorneys for Petitioner DENIS MICHAEL DEVLAMING, ESQUIRE KIMBERLY BETH RIVELLINI, ESQUIRE DOUGLAS M. DEVLAMING, ESQUIRE 1101 Turner Street Clearwater, Florida 33756 BRUCE GRIFFITH HOWIE, ESQUIRE PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE, & WERNER 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida 33707 Attorneys for Respondent 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE COURT: Please be seated. Good 3 afternoon. I don't know whether Mr. Johnson 4 has gotten younger or what's happened. 5 Mr. Pope, welcome. 6 MR. POPE: He has gotten very young. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Let the record 8 reflect. Welcome. Welcome. All right. 9 Motion for Clarification. And, um, let me do 10 it this way. Petitioner, you ready, Mr. Pope? 11 MR. POPE: Yes, we're ready. 12 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlamings? 13 MR. DEVLAMING: We're ready. 14 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: We're ready. 15 MS. RIVELLINI: Yes. 16 MR. POPE: You want me up there, Your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: Wherever you're comfortable. 19 I'm serious. If you want to sit. 20 MR. POPE: I'm pretty comfortable right 21 here. 22 THE COURT: That is fine. 23 And, let me -- let me see the attorneys 24 at the bench a minute. Court Reporter. 25 (THEREUPON THE FOLLOWING WAS HEARD AT THE BENCH.) ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 4 1 THE COURT: I just want to put on the 2 record, like I did the last time Mr. Pope. 3 MR. POPE: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: I believe I have known you 5 since 1969, or '72? 6 MR. POPE: Long time. 7 THE COURT: I have known Mr. DeVlaming 8 since 1969. I put on the record the last time, 9 I new Johnson and Fugate since 1970. I don't 10 want any problem with any side one way or the 11 other about the fact I have known you, and 12 Bruce Howie. 13 MR. POPE: Seems pretty evenly balanced. 14 THE COURT: We're all good friends. 15 We're co-presidents of the Master together. 16 You two were the recipients of the 17 professionalism award and everything else. I 18 don't want any allegations of anything. I want 19 to be sure on the record. If you want to take 20 a moment off the record that is fine. I want a 21 crystal clean record you all know me. 22 MR. POPE: Judge, there is absolutely no 23 problem. 24 MR. DEVLAMING: Our position hasn't 25 changed since last time. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 5 1 MR. POPE: This is Sandy Weinberg. 2 THE COURT: You have been here before? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Lee Spader joined me 4 about three years ago. I'm Lee's partner. 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I can't say I 6 know you. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I have been in Tampa. 8 THE COURT: I won't hold that against 9 you. Okay. Let's go ahead. 10 (THEREUPON THE BENCH CONFERENCE WAS CONCLUDED.) 11 THE COURT: You know me, I want the 12 playing field absolutely level. Kim, you could 13 come up, you're an attorney. 14 MS. RIVELLINI: I figured you had quite 15 a crowd up there. 16 THE COURT: I wasn't having a good old 17 boys conference. You're an attorney and you're 18 welcome up here. 19 MS. RIVELLINI: I appreciate it. As 20 long as you have known the gentlemen I don't 21 think I was around then. I heard how far back 22 you were going. You got everything covered. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I just want it real 24 clear you're, please, you're always welcome. 25 And Mr. Pope, I believe I had the good ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 6 1 opportunity yesterday, good fortune yesterday 2 to meet who I believe is your number one 3 understudy and I tried to get him to come, talk 4 him into coming. He was working out in the 5 Wellness Center, and Kay was working out there 6 yesterday. 7 MS. RIVELLINI: His number two 8 understudy is here. 9 THE COURT: He is? Well come up and sit 10 at the table. He is welcome. 11 Please proceed. 12 MR. POPE: May it please the Court? 13 MR. DEVLAMING: Mr. Pope, Judge, just a 14 minute. Excuse me for interrupting. Actually 15 you brought up a good point, because both sides 16 in open court Kim Rivellini is with my office 17 and her husband works -- 18 MR. POPE: For my P.A. 19 MR. DEVLAMING: And Peter Rivellini 20 works for Mr. Pope's office. And I think, 21 although I have spoken with Mr. Menton and I'm 22 sure Mr. Pope has spoken with his client, I 23 think it should be part of the record. We have 24 no objections to the fact that that arrangement 25 exists. We have been very careful to make sure ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 7 1 that this matter is not discussed in the home 2 front, but now that we have that, that is on 3 the record. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And this Court was 5 made aware of that. And I want this record 6 clear that I have had an opportunity to talk to 7 both the husband and the wife and made it clear 8 to them that they understood the situation too. 9 MR. POPE: Your Honor, Mr. Rivellini is 10 a tax lawyer with our firm and has absolutely 11 nothing to do whatever in this matter. 12 THE COURT: I gathered that when he was 13 talking figures and numbers and we talk about 14 something else. 15 MR. POPE: He is here out of pure 16 curiosity. 17 THE COURT: Well he is welcome too. 18 Okay. Thank you. 19 Mr. Pope, go ahead. 20 MR. POPE: Thank you, Your Honor. I was 21 not involved in the original hearing that led 22 to the Court's temporary injunction in this 23 matter, that was handled locally by Paul 24 Johnson, whom you know. And Mr. Johnson has 25 been in ill health and for that reason I was ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 8 1 asked to come in and handle this particular 2 hearing. And I've already introduced Sandy 3 Weinberg who will serve as co-counsel today. 4 Your Honor, I hope you have before you 5 the Petitioner's Verified Motion for 6 Clarification and Alternative Motion to Add 7 Party Defendants. 8 THE COURT: Yes, sir, I do. 9 MR. POPE: And most particularly I hope 10 you have before you the appendix to that. 11 THE COURT: I do, sir. Yes, sir, I do. 12 MR. POPE: Mr. DeVlaming and I have 13 consulted with one other on a couple of 14 occasions in effort to cut down on what I call 15 the fumble factor at these hearings. And we 16 have, we have agreed that there won't be any 17 need to bring any authenticating witnesses for 18 the photographs he has, for the videotapes that 19 we have exchanged views of, and also with 20 respect to couple of internet postings that are 21 part of that. So I think we have all of that 22 behind us. And what I would like to do is just 23 make a brief presentation, play a video for 24 you, a video, about twelve, fifteen minute 25 video. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 9 1 THE COURT: Let me just stop you right 2 now. You have a video you want to play for me? 3 MR. POPE: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: Are you going to play that 5 on my machine? 6 MR. POPE: I was going to play it on 7 this, if that is yours. 8 THE COURT: That is it. Because last 9 time there was a lot of higher engineering 10 going on that there were -- I don't know how to 11 describe it, VCR tapes that wouldn't work on 12 the VCR and, et cetera, et cetera. But I would 13 like to have one common VCR that works for me 14 when I want to look at it and when the press 15 comes to me and says that doesn't work, what do 16 I do. Let's get that out of the way now. 17 MR. POPE: We had planned to use your 18 video. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. Mine is very 20 humble and simple. 21 MR. POPE: It should be a low tech 22 experience. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MR. POPE: I also have an aerial 25 photograph of downtown Clearwater that I may ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 10 1 make reference to, and if I do I'll pull it up 2 so you can see it. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 4 MR. POPE: With all of that behind us, 5 may it please the Court. Let me go through a 6 little bit of chronology here. 7 On November 2nd, 1999, a month before 8 the Court entered its temporary injunction, the 9 respondent, Mr. Minton, formed a for-profit 10 corporation called Lisa McPhearson Trust 11 Incorporated. I refer to that as the 12 McPhearson Corporation because it is not a 13 trust it is a corporation. It's a mission, 14 according to a November 3rd posting on the 15 internet that Mr. Minton made, is basically 16 focussed on the Church of Scientology and 17 educating people about it and its perported 18 dangers. 19 The day after the corporation was formed 20 Mr. Minton posted, and made an internet 21 posting, which is found at tab three of your 22 materials, and in that posting he basically 23 describes the mission of the corporation and 24 identifies the people who will be involved with 25 it. And the purpose of my presenting to the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 11 1 Court this posting is simply to identify 2 Mr. Minton's colleagues. 3 Mr. Minton -- the articles of 4 incorporation are contained at tab two of your 5 appendix -- and Mr. Minton has shown, at least 6 at the organizing stage of this corporation, as 7 its sole officer, sole director, and sole 8 shareholder. That this Court then a month 9 later we have the hearing occurs and on 10 December the 2nd this Court issues its 11 temporary injunction, at the time the temporary 12 injunction of Lisa McPhearson Trust Inc. was a 13 month old. 14 Another month goes by and on January the 15 5th the McPhearson Corporation takes title to 16 Scott Brower, and you may even have run into 17 Scott Brower, he is a CPA in Clearwater, and 18 still is. And he has for many years an office 19 at 33 North Ft. Harrison, which is just a 20 couple of numbers away from my former office 21 which used to be at 20 North Ft. Harrison, 22 which wasn't too far away from your former 23 office which used to be in the Westcoast Hotel 24 building, as I recall. 25 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 12 1 MR. POPE: So the McPhearson Corporation 2 takes title to this building, this piece of 3 property that is about thirty feet away from 4 the old Bank of Clearwater building, which is 5 owned by the Church of Scientology and has been 6 for some time. The Bank of Clearwater building 7 is a dining facility. They feed -- the Church 8 of Scientology feeds about 1380 people 9 breakfast, lunch, and dinner there seven days a 10 week. 11 THE COURT: Not at the hotel? 12 MR. POPE: Not at the hotel. There may 13 be some food, feeding at the hotel, by the 14 dining facilities for the staff and the 15 students are there. So essentially that is 16 what this is. So that's what this is. 17 THE COURT: So the old Lemon Tree is the 18 officer's feeding? 19 MR. POPE: That is right. That is 20 right. That means you have got 4000 and some 21 people a day trooping in and out of this 22 building, which makes it a convenient place if 23 somebody wants to stand there and make his 24 presence known to the Scientologists going in 25 and out of there. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 13 1 On January the 10th Stacy Brooks, who 2 identifies herself in this posting as the 3 president of the McPhearson Corporation, posts 4 an internet posting in which she basically 5 describes the start-up operations of the 6 McPhearson Corporation and identifies a number 7 of people who are affiliated with it and doing 8 things for it. And the reason that we have 9 that in the file and before the Court is simply 10 to establish the identity of the people who are 11 involved in the matter. 12 As a consequence of the Court's 13 injunction on the 2nd of December, which you 14 may recall, involved -- 15 THE COURT: I have a copy right here. 16 MR. POPE: It was Mr. Howd against 17 Mr. Minton, and it drew out of an altercation 18 between these two. But when the Court entered 19 it its scope was substantially broader and you 20 made it binding on people acting in active 21 concert in participation with Mr. Howd and with 22 Mr. Minton. As a consequence of the breath of 23 the Court's injunction the church in deciding 24 that it would instruct it's people to avoid 25 engagement with Mr. Minton and those persons it ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 14 1 believed to be operating with him. 2 Now, Your Honor you may recall that, and 3 I've got a diagram in here on, at tab five, 4 there is a diagram of Cleveland Street and Ft. 5 Harrison Street and North Garden Street in 6 there which shows the particular buildings 7 involved. We're talking about the old Bank of 8 Clearwater building. 9 THE COURT: You didn't put the orange 10 dots on there. 11 MR. POPE: That is right. That was in 12 disappearing ink. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. POPE: Ft. Harrison runs up the west 15 side of the Bank of Clearwater building and 16 Waterson is on the east side. Waterson is a 17 narrow Street and it is a one way street headed 18 north. 19 THE COURT: I'm familiar with that. 20 Isn't that Jimmy Hall Street? 21 MR. POPE: It is. 22 THE COURT: I refer to that as Jimmy 23 Hall Street. 24 MR. POPE: All right. We're on Jimmy 25 Hall Street. We think it is particularly ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 15 1 important to Mr. Minton and his colleagues 2 because it gives him an opportunity to position 3 himself right in the faces of 1380 people as 4 they come and go three times a day for their 5 meals there. It is a check point. 6 And the problem with Mr. Minton and his 7 colleagues started appearing, as you will see 8 on the videotape, on Waterson and saying things 9 to the people coming out and carrying their 10 pickets and plackets and doing their 11 videotaping. And this a very much mutual 12 videotaping situation we have here. 13 When we first showed up there the 14 Scientologists Church decided what they wanted 15 to do to resolve the problem is have the buses 16 unload on Ft. Harrison. The problem is that 17 the police department couldn't tolerate that 18 because there is too much traffic on Ft. 19 Harrison. The problem is, Your Honor, when you 20 come in on Waterson the doors on the buses are 21 facing the sidewalk away from the Bank of 22 Clearwater building, which means Mr. Minton's 23 folks could be there but they couldn't be on 24 the other side of the sidewalk because of the 25 Court's injunction that enjoined them from ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 16 1 coming within ten feet. So they were, so we're 2 sort of at a Hobson's choice here. They 3 couldn't go on the Ft. Harrison because the 4 police said it created too much danger so they 5 had to go on Waterson to unload. And what 6 finally happened was that the police and the 7 City of Clearwater marked off an unloading zone 8 with two white stripes, and we'll have 9 photographs of that, Mr. DeVlaming has some of 10 those, and said, stay out of the unloading zone 11 while the vans and buses load and unload. And 12 that is how it is operating so far. 13 What we're going to show you is that 14 there has been difficulty on the part of the 15 police and on the part of the church in 16 interpreting the meaning and scope of the 17 injunction and to whom it applies. 18 And the purpose of our hearing today is 19 simply to try to get you to clarify it by 20 determining that certain people are in fact 21 acting in active concert participation with 22 Mr. Minton and that we think that once that is 23 done you probably should grant our motion for 24 leave to add these people as just defendants to 25 the injunction so that there is no doubt ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 17 1 whatever in the minds of everybody in involved 2 including the enforcement authority as to who 3 this injunction applies. 4 So that is the sole and limited purpose 5 of this hearing, and we're going, with that 6 said, I'm going to try to keep it very short, 7 and I don't know if you want to give 8 Mr. DeVlaming an opportunity to open. 9 THE COURT: I will. Let me do 10 something. Mr. Pope, you do intend to call 11 some witnesses? 12 MR. POPE: I'm going to call one 13 witness, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. The reason I was a 15 little concerned, we're very honored to have 16 two of Clearwaters finest here and I think they 17 probably rather could be used back out on the 18 streets than sitting here. If we're not going 19 to call them, and I would like to get them, you 20 know, in if we're going to call them in just a 21 minute. You intend to call these officers? 22 MR. POPE: My plan, Your Honor, was to 23 play this short video, to give you an idea 24 about the number of people involved and what is 25 going on and then to call Captain Jones for ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 18 1 five minutes of testimony. 2 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 3 MR. DEVLAMING: We will call Lieutenant 4 Hall first so both of the men can get back to 5 work. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Good. You all be 7 patient we'll get to you all in just a second. 8 Let me just give Mr. DeVlaming a chance to make 9 an opening if he desires. 10 MR. DEVLAMING: I will, Judge, it will 11 be very brief. Frankly by the Court's order 12 dated December 2nd, 1999 you constructed a 13 machine that was not broke. I think what 14 you're going to find out from the witnesses in 15 this case and the exhibits is that everybody 16 has taken, both sides frankly, have taken your 17 order to heart. We believe Lieutenant Hall is 18 going to tell you that each time he spoke with 19 Mr. Minton that he has been cooperative. That 20 there has no instances of Mr. Minton getting in 21 anybody's face. The expression that you have 22 called picket chicken, the picket chicken has 23 now ceased. So the need to have any enumerated 24 individual's names mentioned, quite frankly, is 25 not present. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 19 1 Frankly, you will see a short snippet 2 that we have to show you of, that we did not 3 have available at the first hearing, and that 4 is what was happening. And frankly, I gave 5 Mr. Pope probably twelve seconds of Mr. Howd 6 following Mr. Minton, in what you term as 7 picket chicken. I could have had more but I 8 don't think it is necessary. I think you can 9 see it. And then what I want to show you is 10 that has ceased. 11 You're also going to see a very brief 12 probably two minute, that is all we have in 13 total of three minutes of videotapes, that is 14 going to show Jessie Prince, who is a member of 15 the Lisa McPhearson Trust, of him being 16 photographed, that is videotape by the 17 Scientologists. 18 But, frankly, we're not here to complain 19 about that. It wasn't done in that 20 in-your-face type of way, and we can live with 21 that. And I think both sides can live with 22 that. There is going to be some videotaping so 23 both sides know, it is almost a good buffer so 24 it stops, but not in an aggressive fashion. 25 Where we're coming from, Judge, is that ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 20 1 Mr. Minton, and you'll see some photographs of 2 this Waterson Avenue, the Clearwater Police 3 have placed the lines there. They talked to 4 Chief Kline about these lines. Until such time 5 some Court takes a different view Mr. Minton 6 and all the people involved in the Trust are 7 going to follow those dictates of Chief Kline, 8 and they have been doing that. 9 I looked at the video that Mr. Pope has, 10 and quite frankly it was pre-lined, so you're 11 going to see them holding up a plack before the 12 buses. I must tell you I have no objection to 13 you seeing that. That has changed too because 14 of the lines going in. There is no more of 15 that. They're back. They're within earshot 16 and eye shot of telling these people that it is 17 safe to talk. And giving them telephone 18 numbers and if they want to come to the Lisa 19 McPhearson Trust they're welcome there. And 20 that is a safe haven if they want to talk to 21 somebody. 22 So frankly, Judge, what you're going to 23 hear is what you asked for is working and that 24 the need to grant Mr. Pope's request is frankly 25 not present. It is both impractical and ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 21 1 frankly unnecessary. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, Sir. 3 Mr. Pope you ready to call or proceed? 4 MR. POPE: I'm ready to play the first 5 tape, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Sir. 7 Folks, everything seems to be peaceful, move at 8 will if you want to see it. And I can see it 9 from here. 10 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I will present 11 you with an index of this segment on the tape 12 so you can follow along with what it is. 13 MR. DEVLAMING: You did. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. I am going to 15 file this. In other words, I'm not going to 16 keep it with my notes. I'm going to put it in 17 the court file. 18 MR. POPE: That is simply so you can 19 follow this videotape. 20 THE COURT: I understand. A summary of 21 what you're presenting. Is there any sound on 22 this? 23 MR. POPE: I think there is some sound. 24 THE COURT: Here is what I would like to 25 do. I would like to have it marked in evidence ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 22 1 and put into the court file so that the court 2 reporter doesn't have to take this down. 3 MR. POPE: No objection, 4 MR. DEVLAMING: No objection, Judge. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: That was my 6 question. Thank you. 7 MR. DEVLAMING: You're welcome. 8 THE COURT: I worked with her long 9 enough. I understand. Okay. Let's proceed. 10 (THEREUPON THE VIDEOTAPE WAS SHOWN.) 11 MR. POPE: The first part of this is 12 silent, Your Honor. This is, I'll just follow 13 the index along, pedestrian traffic across 14 Cleveland Street and Ft. Harrison Avenue. So 15 you get some idea to the number of people 16 involved and the state of the congestion. 17 Again, coming right along in front of 18 the Bank of Clearwater building and turning 19 onto Waterson Avenue. 20 The bus unloading on Waterson where the 21 people to go inside the side door of the Bank 22 of Clearwater building which goes into the 23 dining facility there. You see how the door of 24 the bus is facing the east side of Waterson. 25 This is just another view, Your Honor. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 23 1 There is an affidavit under tab fifteen 2 basically establishing the volume of bus 3 traffic being, sorry, fifteen is wrong. Under 4 tab ten during breakfast there is twenty-one 5 buses, fifteen van stops. Lunch is seven to 6 eight buses, and twenty-eight van stops. 7 Dinner is the same as lunch. 8 Now we have Patricia Greenway, Peter 9 Alexander Jessie Prince and Mark Bunker here 10 near the bank of Clearwater delivery phone on 11 January 10. 12 That is Mr. Minton and Mr. Prince on 13 Waterson. Mr. Prince is stepping off the 14 distance from the bank. 15 This is immediately adjacent to the Bank 16 of Clearwater building. 17 THE COURT: This is on the west side of 18 Waterson? 19 MR. POPE: West side right up next to 20 the building. 21 THE COURT: There is a person there with 22 this, the white shirt. What is that? On the 23 left. Back that up a second. Stop it. Freeze 24 it right there. No, back it up just a second. 25 I want to see that uniform there. That was a ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 24 1 good -- show me the view with the badge. Just 2 barely see the back side right there. 3 MR. POPE: I'm told they're unarmed and 4 have -- 5 THE COURT: It looked like keys or 6 something, that right there. That is uniform 7 church security? 8 MR. POPE: The uniform was -- the person 9 in uniform was private church security unarmed 10 right there. 11 THE COURT: Right there. Okay. 12 MR. POPE: This is the east side of 13 Waterson. The bus is trying to unload. 14 THE COURT: Can you back that up just a 15 minute? I just wanted to see what the lights 16 were going on. Okay. He has the flashers on. 17 Right. 18 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. 19 THE COURT: And that bus is trying to 20 get into the loading zone. 21 MR. POPE: Yes, sir. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Does have flashers 23 on. 24 MR. POPE: At the time of this film 25 there was no loading zone marked out on the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 25 1 street. That came later. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. POPE: This is Mr. Ward, 4 Mrs. Greenway, Mrs. Brooks and Mrs. Barker. 5 I have three or four minutes here of the 6 last tape we're going to play is Mr. Prince 7 with off-duty police officers. 8 THE COURT: I want to do something. 9 Those officers, you all can, specially the 10 Clearwater police officer, I know he is trying 11 to see. Move -- as you all move, come up here. 12 You can sit up here. Specially I want you to 13 see. Now just a wait a minute for him. Come 14 on up. Wasn't there another officer with you? 15 He is hiding. You two sit -- one of you can 16 sit on one side of the press and one on the 17 other. Keep an eye on the press for me. Would 18 you? Come on in here. 19 Ms. Rivellini, you don't have to sit in 20 the back of the courtroom. Come on up. 21 I don't think they gave you the code to 22 do that. 23 MR. POPE: That is it. Those were two 24 off-duty police officers that were hired by the 25 church to police Waterson Avenue. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 26 1 THE COURT: And the Clearwater uniform 2 is the same, some stores may hire on the 3 weekend for shoplifting? Yeah. 4 MR. POPE: We'll call Captain Jones to 5 the stand. 6 THE COURT: Captain Jones. If you come 7 forward I'll swear you in here. Let him get 8 settled in here. When you're ready. 9 THEREUPON, 10 ROBERT W. JONES 11 HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 THE COURT: Go ahead. 14 BY MR. POPE: 15 Q Captain Jones, tell us your name. 16 A My name is Robert W. Jones. 17 Q And your occupation. 18 A I'm the Captain of the Clearwater Police 19 Department in charge of the patrol division. 20 Q How long have you had that position? 21 A Captain of the patrol division one year. 22 Q And how long have you been with the police 23 department? 24 A It will be twenty years this coming May. 25 Q And in your current assignment generally what ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 27 1 are your job responsibilities? 2 A My job responsibilities is the overall 3 operation of the entire uniform patrol division, that 4 covers the entire city inspections, et cetera. 5 Q Now, have you in the last couple of months been 6 called upon to deal with the relationship between the 7 Church of Scientology and Mr. Minton? 8 A Yes, I have. 9 Q Have you been called upon to interpret or 10 enforce the temporary injunction that this Court 11 entered in this case? 12 A Have I myself personally? The Clearwater 13 Police Department has, yes they have. 14 Q Under your supervision? 15 A Yes, they have. 16 Q And this injunction was entered on December 2, 17 1999; would you please give us an overview of what 18 you, your department has been called upon to do with 19 respect to this injunction since December 2, '99. 20 A Once the injunction came out and we received a 21 copy of it, at that time the Lisa McPhearson protests 22 were going to occur fairly shortly, I believe December 23 4th and 5th, part of that, the staff got together, we 24 looked over the injunction and being that the agents, 25 trying to determine who was agents and who were not ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 28 1 agents of both sides. We made a decision at that time 2 that we would strictly enforce it against Mr. Howd and 3 Mr. Minton, that we would not try to decide who was 4 agents of each, each other. 5 Prior to the demonstrations then we had a 6 meeting with Mr. DeVlaming and also members of the 7 church and our department. We sat down with Chief 8 Kline, explained exactly to them how to handle this 9 situation. 10 Q And what issues have surfaced since that time? 11 A Since that time the issues have come from, as 12 we knew they would, from both sides where the Lisa 13 McPhearson Trust at first were trying to state that 14 the Scientology, the members of the Scientology were 15 agents therefore they could not come within ten feet 16 of Mr. Minton. Likewise, the Church of Scientology 17 tried to give us a list of individuals, basically 18 those with the protest signs, protesting against us 19 are members of the Lisa McPhearson Trust. 20 Chief Kline made it clear that both sides, that 21 we were not going to get in the middle of trying to 22 decide who was or who was not and they would have to 23 spell it out. 24 Q Would clarification of this injunction with 25 respect to the names of the persons to whom it applies ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 29 1 assist you in carrying out your responsibilities? 2 A It would assist us if -- well, both sides are 3 claiming that they're blanketing it, they're trying to 4 blanket the organization of Scientologist are all 5 members. Likewise, the Scientologists are trying to 6 blanket that everybody from the Lisa McPhearson. We 7 had numerous calls, especially January 10th and 11th 8 of this year, Sergeant Wilson was out there three 9 times just over this incident, who was a member or an 10 agent or not, and we cannot determine. We do not have 11 a list of the individuals. We don't have photographs 12 of everybody, so we are stuck with what are ruling 13 was. 14 Q You got any ideas as to how many calls you 15 received with respect to one or the other side asking 16 for this injunction to be enforced? 17 A I honestly don't have. I know this is, when we 18 had the first demonstrations at the 210 South Ft. 19 Harrison we had both sides, even though we had the 20 meeting with Mr. DeVlaming and the members of the 21 church, we still had both sides approaching us telling 22 us that the other person at that demonstration were 23 members. I don't have an exact count, no. 24 Q But it has been numerous times, hasn't it, that 25 you have been called out? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 30 1 A I myself personally, no. The Clearwater Police 2 Department, yes. 3 Q The department? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. POPE: That is all the questions I 6 have. 7 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, Sir. 8 MR. DEVLAMING: Thank you, Sir. 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 11 Q Captain, one of the meetings that you just 12 alluded to was in my office along with Chief Kline? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And did you feel that that offer to meet with 15 us was in the spirit of cooperation of Judge Penick's 16 order? 17 A Yes, indeed. 18 Q You think it was a productive meeting as far as 19 us meeting with the Chief and yourself and you meeting 20 with us? 21 A I think it was very productive because we had 22 no problem after that for that weekend. 23 Q And I think that was the weekend of the 24 anniversary of Ms. McPhearson's death, everybody 25 thought that might be the brace time for problems if ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 31 1 they were going to occur? 2 A Possibility. 3 Q Possibility. And they didn't occur? 4 A No. 5 Q Now, as far as names are concerned I suppose we 6 could take this to the extreme, if you have, the 7 office was given a list of names and photographs, and 8 that would even include if Judge Penick were so 9 inclined to do it, although we're not requesting that, 10 the Office of Special Affairs, that is the 11 enforcement -- you know what the Office Of Special 12 Affairs is? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q Of the Church of Scientology? 15 A No, I do not. 16 Q Have you ever dealt with anybody from that 17 particular division to your knowledge? 18 A To my knowledge, no. 19 Q Do you know that the Church of Scientology has 20 a security division in general? 21 A I know I have seen uniform out there, and 22 individuals in plain clothes with radios, which I take 23 for granted would be security, but I don't know the 24 title of their section as you said. 25 Q Captain, before Judge Penick issued his order, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 32 1 would you characterize the type of activity as being, 2 well, a form of almost harassment between the two 3 groups the way they were treating each other? 4 A Prior to his order? 5 Q Yes, sir. 6 A I know we had the one incident where Mr. Minton 7 was involved in, I think October, but prior to that it 8 seemed that in the past history we only had problems 9 during the anniversary time, the anniversary of the 10 death. 11 Q I guess what I'm getting to, what led up to 12 this injunction, are you familiar with the type of 13 activity where people would follow within inches with 14 their cameras to people's faces and there would be 15 hordes of people walking up and down almost in a 16 harassment type fashion on both sides? 17 A On both sides, correct. 18 Q And have you seen that stop, that type of 19 activity that I'm talking about right now since Judge 20 Penick's order? 21 A Stop hundred percent? No. 22 Q Well, the sticking the camera in the face and 23 the walking up and down next to the person with the 24 protest sign, have you seen that continue? 25 A Obviously by the videotape we're stilling ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 33 1 having both sides, I know if I, any officer goes out 2 to the scene, especially staff members, we're, by both 3 sides, approached by video camera. 4 Q So what you're saying, not only Mr. Minton, 5 although -- let me ask you this. Have you ever seen 6 Mr. Minton with a video camera? 7 A No, I have not personally, no. 8 Q Have you ever talked to Mr. Minton other than 9 the meeting that we had in the office? 10 A Yes, I have. 11 Q And how would you categorize his cooperation 12 with you personally? 13 A With me personally? Very cooperative. 14 Q And when you ask him to do something would he 15 do it? 16 A Every time I have, yes, he has. 17 Q If you asked him to cease or move on would he 18 do it? 19 A According to what I have seen on the reports we 20 have seen no problems with him. 21 Q From what we saw on this video it was a time 22 before Chief Kline decided to exercise a police power 23 for safety purposes and put large lines down on an 24 area of Waterson; are you familiar with that now? 25 A Yes, I am. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 34 1 Q And would you say that this -- 2 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, there is no clerk 3 here, but I have three photographs I would like 4 to mark at this time. 5 THE COURT: I'm the clerk. 6 MR. DEVLAMING: You're the clerk. Okay. 7 THE COURT: You want to make a 8 composite? Let's make them separate. Hold on 9 just minute. 10 Wally come here just a minute. 11 All right. Mr. DeVlaming I've marked 12 these and I'll hand them to you. They're 13 marked Minton. And then I put a number for ID, 14 todays date and case number. And I'll see 15 where it goes from there. 16 MR. DEVLAMING: Thank you. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, you have any 18 problems with those? 19 MR. POPE: I have no objection to those 20 coming in out of time, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: I marked them for purposes, 22 just to move right along, it is okay if they're 23 admitted now? 24 MR. POPE: No problem, Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. DeVlaming, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 35 1 show them to him. I'll mark them later. Let 2 the court reporter mark it down. There are 3 three photographs of, looks like Waterson 4 Street. One is ground level, one shows the car 5 and one looks like it is from a roof top. 6 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 9 Q Officer, I'm showing you those photographs is 10 that -- are those lines depicted in the photographs, 11 were they put at the direction of the Clearwater 12 Police Department? 13 A Yes, they were. 14 Q And the reason for those lines, is that to keep 15 individuals, all members of the citizenry for that 16 matter, from being within those lines at the time when 17 the buses were coming in and either picking up or 18 unloading passengers? 19 A Correct, for pedestrian safety and citizen 20 safety. We didn't want conflicts to occur when a 21 large mass was exiting the bus. 22 Q Okay. Since the lines went down have they been 23 complied with? 24 A To my knowledge, yes, they have. 25 Q That seems to skin that cat as far as bringing ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 36 1 people within the area of the buses at the time when 2 the pedestrians, or not pedestrians, but at the time 3 the people were getting on the bus and off the bus? 4 A We set specific times and we also set specific, 5 there would be a major bus with a lot of people, so we 6 only do it for several minutes at a time. 7 Q And of course this would, you would enforce 8 that order and request of all citizens, even if they 9 were not involved with the Lisa McPhearson Trust or 10 the Church of Scientology? 11 A That's correct. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. 13 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 14 Q Um, Captain, are you familiar since Judge 15 Penick's order up to the present day, which is a 16 little over two months, have there been any arrests to 17 your knowledge in the Waterson Avenue or any picket 18 related offenses? 19 A I'm not aware of any. 20 Q And lastly, do the Clearwater police officers 21 have available to them an avenue that if they go up to 22 somebody or two people that appear to be, let's call 23 it in-their-faces, do they have the ability to say, 24 listen, move on, and then if they continue that 25 activity or don't obey the officer to make an arrest? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 37 1 A Explain again. In whose face? Two individuals 2 in each others faces? 3 Q Yes, sir. 4 A Yes, if we felt there was going to be a 5 physical confrontation we could ask them to move on. 6 Q In fact didn't Chief Kline in our office and 7 later to the church people indicate that he was not 8 going to tolerate any of that in-your-face activity 9 and he was going to instruct his officers that there 10 would be arrests if need be if that continues? 11 A If need be. 12 Q And it has not had that need so far? 13 A To my knowledge we have not made an arrest 14 there, no. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Thank you. Thank you. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. POPE: 19 Q You indicated that Mr. Minton had been 20 cooperative when you had dealt with him, wouldn't you 21 say the same is true about the people from the church 22 you have dealt with? 23 A Yes, with me personally I had no problems. 24 Q No problems at all. 25 Let me ask you this, as you sit here today has, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 38 1 I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you the names 2 of some people and I'm going to want to know from you 3 whether you made a determination whether these people 4 are affiliated with or an agent of or acting in 5 concert participation with Mr. Minton, so if you just 6 listen to this list of names for me. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, hold on a minute. 8 I have been very fortunate to get a court clerk 9 for a non-jury proceeding. So hold on. 10 Mr. Pope. You may proceed with the 11 names. 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Excuse me, I'm going to 13 object to the form of that question. I don't 14 think this officer may be, qualified I guess is 15 the only word I can think of, to be able to 16 give the interpretation of agent, principal, 17 concert, things of this nature, so I object to 18 the form of the question. 19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the question is 20 phrased in the language of this Court's 21 injunction. 22 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead and 23 proceed. 24 MR. POPE: All right. Thank you. 25 THE COURT: I recognize it from that ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 39 1 perspective and overrule you on that. Go 2 ahead. Let's see what happens. 3 BY MR. POPE: 4 Q Do you remember my question? We got 5 interrupted? 6 A Please repeat it. 7 Q The question is, as you sit here today have you 8 or the department been able to identify any of these 9 names that I will rattle off to you in just a minute, 10 as being agents of Mr. Minton or people who are acting 11 in concert or participation with him. Here are the 12 names; do you understand the question? 13 A Yes, but I cannot speak for the whole 14 department, I can speak for myself. 15 Q Well, speak for yourself. Okay. And I'll just 16 go through all the names. Duncan Pierce, Brian Haney, 17 Stacy Brooks, Kim Baker, Grady Ward, Jessie Prince, 18 Patricia Greenway, Mark Bunker, Peter Alexander and 19 David, I'll spell it, C-E-R-C-E-R-E; have you been 20 able to determine their relationship to Mr. Minton? 21 A I personally don't know the relationship of any 22 of them. I have come in contact with Stacy Brooks I 23 believe on one or two calls, and I have not tried to 24 determine what the relationship is or what the 25 position on it. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 40 1 Q And as I understand it the official position as 2 you sit here today with respect to the enforcement of 3 this injunction is that you're going to enforce 4 against Mr. Minton period? 5 A That was our original decision when the 6 injunction came out originally in order for us to try 7 to determine who are agents of each other that we were 8 sticking with the two individual's names. 9 Q You didn't feel like you were in a position to 10 determine who was acting as agent; is that correct? 11 A That is correct. We didn't want to get in a 12 position where we're out there and the Scientologists 13 tell us this person is an agent where it may be an 14 innocent citizen there opting to use their first 15 ammendment rights, and we didn't want to get involved 16 in it. 17 MR. POPE: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Anything else? 19 MR. POPE: Nothing else. 20 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming? 21 MR. DEVLAMING: One moment, Judge. 22 THE COURT: You have it. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: Just one question. 24 RECROSS EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. DEVLAMING: ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 41 1 Q I needed to clarify, Captain, you told Mr. Pope 2 that you had some contact with Stacy Brooks, was that 3 a matter that she brought to your attention that she 4 thought she was being followed or stalked by a Church 5 of Scientology member? 6 A I believe I met her twice. Once was that 7 Friday we was up there on Waterson and deciding to put 8 the stripes down she came up and introduced herself or 9 said hi to us. And then another time was this Friday 10 evening, that's correct. 11 Q And on this Friday evening is when she brought 12 to your attention that she thought she was being 13 stalked by a church member? 14 A That's correct. 15 MR. POPE: Your Honor, since that was 16 brand new; do you mind if I ask a follow-up 17 question? 18 THE COURT: Go ahead. 19 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. POPE: 21 Q Would you tell us what the result was, or what 22 action was taken with respect to this perported 23 stalking? 24 A Basically Mr. Minton claimed that he was being 25 stalked by an individual. This individual claims he ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 42 1 was being followed by Mr. Minton. We did an 2 information report, and because both sides wanted to 3 press charges and it was both, two off sides and we 4 just did an information report. 5 MR. POPE: Thank you. Nothing further, 6 Your Honor, I don't have any further tapes or 7 witnesses. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Can we excuse -- 9 you -- do you have anything Mr. DeVlaming? 10 MR. DEVLAMING: You're free. You're 11 free. 12 THE COURT: Sir, you're free. No wait a 13 minute. Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. I 14 spoke too fast. 15 Since I have the opportunity I have a 16 question. 17 If you were sitting here in my position 18 and you had before you what I have in front of 19 me, what would you do to make it palatable for 20 the Clearwater Police Department to not find 21 themselves in a harassed position of he said 22 she said all the time, and to maintain the 23 harmony and keep the in-your-face routine down 24 and yet uphold the first ammendment to the 25 Constitution? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 43 1 THE WITNESS: We came up with a safety 2 zone trying to keep a separate line of, if you 3 will, we can keep these two sides separate. It 4 seems to be working so far. I'm sure that this 5 will be challenged later. 6 All we are trying to do is keep the 7 peace. We want to keep the two sides away from 8 each other so we don't, as you say, get into 9 the chicken protesting, and it can happen with 10 cameras also. And it can happen with following 11 vehicles all over town. I don't know if we can 12 stop that, if we can rectify that situation. 13 We're still going to have both sides, 14 there is no doubt in my mind, with the way it 15 is worded right now, both sides is going to 16 claim everybody on one side is an agent and 17 everybody on the other side is an agent unless 18 key individuals are named to stay away and we 19 are able to maintain that line in the roadway 20 to keep the sides physically separated from 21 each other, basically that is all we can do. 22 We do not want to blanket everybody 23 because people have first amendment rights to 24 protest. It can be an individual that is not 25 tied up with any foundation whatsoever, a ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 44 1 person sees it on the internet or local person 2 that see it in the paper. We can't stop them 3 from going down there, nor do we want to. 4 THE COURT: And you met with Mr. Pope 5 and Mr. DeVlaming, or just Mr. DeVlaming? 6 THE WITNESS: We met with Mr. Pope also. 7 THE COURT: Sort of a sit down meeting 8 tried to hammer this out? 9 THE WITNESS: It was several weeks ago 10 after we put the lines down on the roadway, we 11 met with Mr. DeVlaming, the Chief did, and also 12 the Chief met with Mr. Pope and just try to 13 give them our side, like we're trying to do 14 here, and ask for cooperation on both sides. 15 THE COURT: One of my concerns is that 16 today, let's take a hypothetical that I grant 17 Mr. Pope's motion to add a list of names, and 18 then you identify those people and you more or 19 less make it clear to them that 20 in-your-face is out and you know them real 21 well, I fear that then tomorrow will be another 22 five and before you know it we have a New York 23 City phonebook of names and -- 24 THE WITNESS: We have told both sides we 25 were not getting involved. When they mention ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 45 1 somebody's name being an agent we basically 2 told them, go back and seek an injunction and 3 have it out. We told that to Mr. DeVlaming and 4 his group. And we told that to the church. 5 But as you said, we can list, I'm sure if you 6 list fifteen names today next month there will 7 be another fifteen on both sides. 8 THE COURT: The thing that concerns me 9 too is we have got brilliant minds on both 10 sides out there and if we put up a safety zone 11 or demilitarized zone, or whatever, around one 12 or the other and then they start following each 13 other around in cars, how do we then stop -- 14 somebody gets out to get groceries at Publix 15 and the other gets out there and of course that 16 is a little easier once you get them out a way 17 from the downtown area to identify. 18 Let me ask you something -- have you 19 talked to Los Angeles or Boston or any of the 20 other cities how they handled this? 21 THE WITNESS: No, myself, I have not. 22 THE COURT: I mean, I'm just looking for 23 novel ideas. I'm like you, I'm frustrated. 24 And it's -- 25 THE WITNESS: I could check for you. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 46 1 THE COURT: Captain, I don't have any 2 other questions. I'll excuse you at this time. 3 Thank you very much for coming. 4 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the petitioner 5 has nothing further to offer in connection with 6 the motion to amend. 7 THE COURT: And your motion to amend is 8 strictly to add those names so they can be 9 identifiable to the Clearwater Police 10 Department? 11 MR. POPE: Your Honor, the motion is in 12 two parts. Actually, there are three things 13 we're asking for. The first thing we ask for 14 is that you determine that the ten names, and 15 that is all there are, the ten names, we're not 16 asking for ten thousand people, that there are 17 handful of people affiliated with this 18 corporation. We're asking for those ten names 19 to be determined to be acting in concert or 20 participation with the respondent, Mr. Minton. 21 That is step one. We want you to make that 22 finding based upon the postings that have been 23 out about the role these people in the 24 McPhearson Corporation and with Mr. Minton. 25 Based upon that finding we would ask ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 47 1 that you join these ten people as defendants in 2 this lawsuit for the purpose of making the 3 injunction effective against them. The police 4 are in a pickle that they, they're having to 5 guess who they enforce this thing against, and 6 it is to resolve that ambiguity. 7 And furthermore, the law is pretty clear 8 that if you don't name somebody if you try to 9 enforce an injunction against them and they're 10 not a party it is a due process violation. You 11 might be able to have them held in contempt on 12 a contempt motion, which we have not filed, we 13 don't want to drag all that up, we're just 14 asking to clarify the situation so that the 15 parties, the police will not be in doubt and 16 everybody will understand who the players are. 17 Remember this organization, the Scientology 18 church has been there for 25 years, there are 19 thousands of people locally connected with it, 20 and the Minton group has been here for a very 21 short time and has come here for the purpose of 22 engaging these people. And to some extent 23 provoking. So, it is pretty -- we're asking 24 for a real limited relief and clarification. 25 THE COURT: Now you talked about two. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 48 1 What is the third one? 2 MR. POPE: Number three is. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. I was sitting 4 here trying to figure out. 5 MR. POPE: The third one is, Your Honor, 6 to approve and extend your injunction out so 7 that the, Mr. Minton and those acting in 8 concert, participation with him and the ones 9 that are hopefully will be enjoined in this 10 lawsuit as defendants cannot be in that zone 11 during the loading and unloading of Scientology 12 buses and vans there. That it is limited 13 measure to keep them away from each other, and 14 doesn't unduly restrict the first amendment 15 rights of Mr. Minton and it also helps protect, 16 Your Honor, these people have some first 17 amendment religious assembly rights as well 18 when they come together to eat their meals 19 together. So you have got two sets of rights 20 here to deal with. 21 THE COURT: Well that -- 22 MR. POPE: Asking for a little balance 23 that is all. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Let me hear from the 25 other side. Mr. DeVlaming. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 49 1 Well, wo, let's check something out here 2 for just a minute. Folks, ladies and gentlemen 3 we have been going for over an hour, let's just 4 take a short ten minute break here and we'll 5 come back. And it is good place for our break. 6 Attorneys let me get you to do 7 something. Anything that you're going to admit 8 in evidence or want to be dealt with bring it 9 up and let the clerk go ahead and ID it, or if 10 you can agree to let me admit it in evidence 11 let her do it now and I'll let Linda go. 12 (THEREUPON A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN AND THE PROCEEDINGS 13 CONTINUED AS FOLLOWS:) 14 THE COURT: I apologize, I happen to be 15 duty judge. There are other situations like 16 this. Okay. We're back. 17 MR. POPE: Your Honor, if I may, Mr. Rob 18 Surrett, who is the attorney for the city who 19 specializes in dealing with the police 20 department is here and wishing to make about a 21 one minute statement to the court. 22 THE COURT: Any objection Mr. DeVlaming? 23 MR. DEVLAMING: None. 24 THE COURT: Come forward. Come forward. 25 Good afternoon. I saw you. I didn't know you ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 50 1 wanted to say something. 2 MR. SURRETT: Been a while. Pleasure to 3 see you. I had an opportunity to listen to the 4 testimony. 5 MR. DEVLAMING: I don't know if the 6 court reporter -- but his name is not on the 7 record. 8 THE COURT: I'm going to get it. That 9 is a good point. Can you give me your full 10 name and your, and your exact title. 11 MR. SURRETT: Robert, S-U-R-R-E-T-T. 12 Assistant City Attorney, City of Clearwater, 13 principally the legal advisor to the Clearwater 14 Police Department. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. SURRETT: Your Honor, having had an 17 opportunity to listen to the testimony this 18 afternoon and having sat in on a number of 19 meetings with both Mr. DeVlaming and Mr. Pope 20 and members of the church and having 21 participated previously in discussions with 22 former members of the church. 23 THE COURT: You're ready to make a 24 recommendation to me? 25 MR. SURRETT: The Clearwater Police ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 51 1 Department has been tiptoeing through a mine 2 field to try to enforce the injunction, we 3 would hope the Court to do one of two things; 4 either eliminate the language that refers to 5 the other unnamed individuals or specifically 6 include the names of the individuals who are 7 agents of either side, Mr. Minton or the 8 church, whether it is members of the Trust 9 itself. But the problem we have had as 10 officers have been called on numerous occasions 11 out to the street and we have been put in the 12 position if we don't consider somebody to be an 13 agent of one or the other that we're playing 14 favoritism. 15 And moreover, Your Honor, I read 16 internet postings by former members of the 17 church, they accused the Clearwater Police 18 Department of acting conspiratorially with the 19 church because off-duty officers have been 20 attempting to maintain the peace on Waterson. 21 And in particular that because Chief Kline in 22 placing the white lines they're somehow taken 23 sides in favor of the Church against the 24 protest force by putting the white lines. 25 Chief Kline obviously is trying to ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 52 1 ensure that all the citizens are provided with 2 protection within the City of Clearwater, has 3 found himself in a no-win situation trying to 4 maintain peace. And in the conclusion, Your 5 Honor, I would hope that this Court could 6 somehow modify that order to provide greater 7 specificity. And we have been fortunate thus 8 far to have both sides represented by counsel 9 of impeccable integrity and expend cooperation 10 thus far really eliminated some of the 11 constitutional nightmares. My concern they may 12 not be able to control some of their members or 13 other counsel may have come forward and then 14 we're back to, again, trying to enforce really 15 amenable situation. 16 THE COURT: Hold on. Don't go away. 17 How broad would you put them away from 18 each other. How many feet away should I 19 increase it to? 20 MR. SURRETT: As far as the Waterson 21 area is concerned we have to work out egress 22 and ingress for each of them from the 23 respective buildings and then put an area where 24 they can't get closer. Your Honor, I don't 25 have any real comment on the fifteen, ten foot ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 53 1 distance. I assume it would be workable to, 2 more to the nature of trying to identify who 3 the individuals are who are the agents of each 4 side. 5 THE COURT: But you realize as soon as 6 you identify agents and start disciplining 7 those agents they would be in the background 8 and new unknowns come forward. Fortunately 9 this is job security for me and probably the 10 DeVlamings and Mr. Pope. 11 MR. SURRETT: I don't know what else to 12 say. 13 THE COURT: You have any thoughts or 14 ideas before today is over I'm willing to 15 listen. 16 MR. SURRETT: None, Your Honor, other 17 than what I mentioned. 18 THE COURT: Okay, let me do this. Hold 19 on. In all fairness, Mr. Pope and 20 Mr. DeVlaming, I'm going to give you chances to 21 ask questions in light of what he said if you 22 would like to question him. He is here as 23 officer of the court I'm not going put him 24 under oath. Just sort of as give and take 25 assistance, some brainstorming. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 54 1 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, if I could. 2 Mr. Surrett, my understanding of your 3 recommendations, at least the first one, would 4 be if the judge eliminates the verbiage to 5 principle agents in concert aspect of it that 6 that would eliminate the police officers 7 decision making obligation to determine who is 8 within the injunction? 9 MR. SURRETT: That's correct. 10 THE COURT: And the second one would be 11 go ahead and add named individuals. Judge 12 Penick named one of the pitfalls of that is 13 that the names would necessarily change. My 14 understanding of your recommendation would be 15 upon both sides, that is on Mr. Minton's side 16 as well as perhaps the Office of Special 17 Affairs, or the security division of the church 18 as well? 19 MR. SURRETT: Again, any specific names 20 of individuals, whether it is one side or 21 opposite ends, Your Honor. 22 MR. DEVLAMING: Were you in the 23 courtroom when Mr. Pope played that one segment 24 of Jessie Prince, the man being taped talking 25 to the Clearwater Police Officer, did you see ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 55 1 that? 2 MR. SURRETT: Yes. 3 MR. DEVLAMING: And did you -- were you 4 able to hear the audio portion? 5 MR. SURRETT: Not clearly. 6 MR. DEVLAMING: Let me ask you this. 7 Were you able to hear while you watched that 8 that the person that was being, that was 9 videotaping Mr. Prince, did you come to the 10 conclusion that was a member of the Church of 11 Scientology by the way he was reacting to the 12 video? 13 MR. SURRETT: I would make that 14 assumption. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: So if people are coming 16 across the road to videotape protesters close 17 up, for example, your recommendation would, in 18 other words, to keep the peace that is the type 19 of person that might be included by name? 20 MR. SURRETT: Again, that is for his 21 Honor to make that determination, but 22 specifically named individuals would be 23 helpful. There has been -- I don't have a 24 problem on Mr. Minton's, or I forget that 25 individual name, but we had problems with that ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 56 1 individual coming in the faces of police 2 officers. In fact during the Martin Luther 3 King luncheon he was in the face of Chief 4 Kline, he did not appreciate that type of 5 attitude on this party's part. Again, I don't 6 recall his name. My understanding he is an 7 affiliate, at least, of Mr. Minton. 8 MR. DEVLAMING: Okay, but your 9 recommendation certainly would not handcuff one 10 side to the detriment or the other? 11 MR. POPE: Your Honor, if I may? 12 Mr. Surrett, one of the options you 13 mentioned is that the judge delete the language 14 that makes the injunction apply to officers, 15 agents and persons acting in concert 16 participation with Mr. Minton; right? 17 MR. SURRETT: Yes. 18 MR. POPE: And if the judge deleted that 19 language you would agree with me, wouldn't you, 20 that Mr. Minton's agents that have come here to 21 town for the expressed purpose of bugging 22 Scientologists would be free then, unrestrained 23 by this injunction to do whatever they wanted 24 to do? 25 MR. SURRETT: That is correct. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 57 1 MR. POPE: If on the other hand if the 2 judge added the names of the ten individuals 3 that we identified as the people that are 4 acting for Mr. Minton in the injunction, would 5 act greatly against those people and the court 6 would have some authority over what was going 7 on with the folks; you would agree with that? 8 MR. SURRETT: Yes. 9 MR. POPE: Thank you. 10 MR. DEVLAMING: One follow up. 11 THE COURT: Let me jump in here one 12 minute. I just want to be sure I understood. 13 Mr. Pope said to eliminate that paragraph 14 three, then the order and the provisions of one 15 and two shall be binding on the respondent, 16 Minton, his officers, agents, servants, and 17 employees and those persons in concert or 18 participation with him will receive actual 19 notice of that; remove that? 20 MR. POPE: My question to him was, if 21 you did that what would the consequence be. 22 And my question was, if you didn't do that, but 23 instead did what we asked and added the ten 24 names of defendants wouldn't that give the 25 court some control over, the control over the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 58 1 activities out there. 2 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming. 3 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. One follow up 4 question. 5 Mr. Surrett, if the Court struck that 6 language you're not leaving us with the 7 impression that the police could not deal under 8 law with those people that failed to obey the 9 unlawful commands of police officers are you? 10 MR. SURRETT: What the injunction does, 11 Your Honor, insists that the Clearwater Police 12 Officer provide the clear guidelines as to 13 where people could position themselves and what 14 they could do. The problem is the police have 15 some limited authority, just because a person 16 happens to be on the street, particularly when 17 they're exercising the first amendment right, 18 it is difficult for the officer to reach in the 19 legal bag and pull out the statute to apply to 20 the activity and to prevent an individual from 21 walking on the street to obstruct or uphold the 22 police officer, lawful excuse of the legal duty 23 is problematic, but you have to have a legal 24 duty that the officer is executing. 25 Now, what the injunction does, it gives ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 59 1 the officer then that legal duty as a person 2 violates the injunction then the officer could 3 say to the individual, sir or ma'am, you need 4 to back off, this is a lawfully issued order 5 and that you need to comply. That is the 6 specificity and clarity that that injunction 7 provides the police officer, otherwise they're 8 called out to the scene now you have four 9 individuals, maybe they're members of the 10 Trust, maybe they're not. 11 Now, the Church called, said the 12 individuals are harassing us, we want 13 protection. Now the officers are out there and 14 they're in a difficult position where you have 15 first ammendment issues and the officers find 16 themselves in that constitutional nightmare. I 17 actually, contrary to the statements Mr. 18 DeVlaming stated to the Judge, the injunction 19 provides greater clarity for the officers in 20 trying to deal with a very difficult situation. 21 MR. DEVLAMING: But Mr. Minton, and 22 those members of the trust, or outside the 23 trust, are exercising the first amendment 24 rights to the protest, do you agree with me 25 that the people that are being protested ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 60 1 against very rarely like the protesters? 2 MR. SURRETT: Right. 3 MR. DEVLAMING: So no one is going to 4 like them, but if they're doing it 5 constitutionally and lawfully would you agree 6 if no other crimes are being broken, doing it 7 lawfully and not in somebody's face then it is 8 very easy for law enforcement not to become 9 involved in separating the two? 10 MR. SURRETT: No, I would say that 11 dealing with the Church of Scientology and 12 former men to become very difficult for the 13 police to do anything. 14 MR. DEVLAMING: That is all. 15 THE COURT: Let me make sure I 16 understand the recommendations to the Court. 17 Eliminate the agents -- about the agents. In 18 other words, eliminate the language the 19 provision that is binding on officers, agents, 20 servants, employees in actual concert or 21 participation with those to receive actual 22 notice. Now that cuts both ways. Now 23 paragraph three deals with Mr. Minton and 24 paragraph six deals with the Church of 25 Scientology. So, cut all that out, add in the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 61 1 names of the persons on either side that are 2 liable to be out there in the trenches? 3 MR. POPE: Your Honor -- 4 THE COURT: I'm talking to him about his 5 recommendation, not yours. Hold on a moment. 6 Fine. You agree with that? 7 MR. SURRETT: Yes, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: And three, increase the 9 buffer zone. 10 MR. SURRETT: Or incorporate the current 11 demarcation where the white lanes were laid. 12 THE COURT: The zone -- 13 MR. SURRETT: Exactly, or include that 14 as part of the injunction. 15 THE COURT: I believe, well, Captain 16 Jones referred to it as safety zone. 17 MR. SURRETT: Yes, sir, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. pope. 19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, I want to make 20 sure it is clear, and I think there is a 21 little, some confusion here. Tell me, 22 Mr. Surrett, if this is correct, your 23 recommendation is to either take that language 24 out so the injunction only applies to 25 Mr. Minton and there is no confusion about it, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 62 1 right; or leave that language in and add the 2 ten names that I have asked the Court to add, 3 are we correct on that? 4 MR. SURRETT: I don't think it would be 5 appropriate for me to tell the judge that 6 far -- 7 THE COURT: Mr. Surrett, you Mr. Pope, 8 and Mr. DeVlaming, and you have known me for 9 twenty years, what do you want me to do? All 10 right. I won't put the City in that position. 11 I think I heard you the first time. 12 Next. 13 MR. POPE: I'm not sure that -- I think 14 there is some confusion here, because -- 15 THE COURT: Wally, I'll get down to that 16 in argument with you. All I understood him to 17 say he wanted that language out of there, even 18 though I -- but, take it out, then add names. 19 MR. POPE: No, that is not -- that is 20 not the point. That language needs to stay in 21 there. But you -- but if you're going to drop 22 it out -- 23 THE COURT: Give me that on closing 24 argument. That was his recommendation. 25 MR. POPE: I didn't understand that to ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 63 1 be his recommendation. 2 THE COURT: I did. Correct me later. 3 MR. POPE: All right. 4 THE COURT: All right. See you, Bob. 5 MR. SURRETT: Thank you. 6 THE COURT: All right now. What else? 7 Anybody else? All right. Let's get back to 8 Mr. DeVlaming. Your turn, please. 9 MR. DEVLAMING: Call Jessie Prince. 10 Ready. 11 THE COURT: You may proceed. 12 THEREUPON, 13 JESSIE PRINCE 14 HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 17 Q Tell us your name and state in which you 18 reside. 19 A My name is Jessie Prince. I live in Chicago, 20 Illinois. 21 Q Mr. Prince, what do you do for a living? 22 A I'm a consultant for different attorney's 23 firms, Mr. Dandar for one. And also work at the Lisa 24 McPhearson Trust. 25 THE COURT: Let's do this, Mr. Prince, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 64 1 if you would, please, Sir, I'm going to have to 2 ask you to talk right straight into the 3 microphone. Also, somehow I get the impression 4 that you can raise the volume a bit if you 5 would, please. I noticed everybody in the back 6 here start leaning forward and I know they're 7 not hearing you. Speak up. And unfortunately 8 the chair is bolted down, you have to move 9 forward. Let's go. There you go. 10 Mr. DeVlaming. 11 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 12 Q On January 8th of the year 2000 there was a 13 Clearwater police report in which Judge Penick has at 14 tab six in the packet that was filed by Mr. Pope; have 15 you read that report? 16 A Yes, I have. 17 Q It is very brief, and so if I could read the 18 three sentences into the record. It says under 19 remark, security personal advised that subject Jessie 20 Prince was observed trying to look into the crack of 21 the set of doors on the east side of the door on 500 22 Cleveland Street. Prince was also seen trying to use 23 the phone attached to the building that belonged to 24 the church. Prince admitted trying to look into the 25 building and admitted that he didn't know that the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 65 1 phone belonged to the church. That record was caused 2 to be made and also made a copy of this motion. I 3 would like to show you what has been marked as 4 Respondent's, or Exhibits 4-A and B; what do these 5 photographs show? 6 A Exhibit D shows a sign for visitors and 7 employees to use a telephone at the end of the 8 building for assistance. 9 Q And is the second photograph a photograph of 10 that phone? 11 A Yes, it is, sir. It is. 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Let me ask you, Judge, I 13 would offer these as respondent or, there is a 14 D on it? 15 THE COURT: Any objection? 16 MR. POPE: No objection, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: If you hand it to the clerk 18 she'll mark it -- thank you very much -- in 19 evidence. Please proceed. 20 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 21 Q Mr. Prince, now that I have read the brief 22 portion of the report into evidence. Would you tell 23 the Judge very briefly what occurred that caused this 24 report to be made? 25 A Yes, I certainly will. The Lisa McPhearson ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 66 1 Trust opened in the early evening of June 5th, we 2 purchased -- 3 Q You said June, did you mean -- 4 A I'm sorry, January. January 5th. Sorry. And 5 we purchased -- 6 THE COURT: This year? 7 THE WITNESS: This year, 2000. 8 And continued to purchase boxes, 9 different boxes and things -- anyway, we had 10 quite a bit of garbage in the front of the 11 building. When we went to empty the garbage we 12 found there were these barricades sitting in 13 the front of our building and they were labeled 14 Bob's Barricades, which is kind of ironic in 15 itself. And we checked with the neighbors to 16 see if the barricades belonged to them, because 17 we wanted to clean them off the sidewalk. The 18 business next door informed us, no, in fact 19 these were not their barricades. 20 So we asked our next neighbors, which 21 would be Church of Scientology Clearwater Bank 22 Building, at which point I walked over to the 23 sign, I was going to go up to the door and 24 knock on the door and walk up and ask security 25 if the signs in fact belonged to them, but on ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 67 1 the way to the door I noticed to my right a 2 sign for visitors and vendors to use the phone 3 at the end, other end of the building should 4 there be any questions. At which point I 5 immediately walked down and picked up the phone 6 and tried to use the phone, rather 7 unsuccessfully, and I hung up. And that was 8 the end of the incident. 9 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 10 Q That was it? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Does the back door of 33 North Ft. Harrison, 13 does it open up on Waterson Avenue? 14 A Yes, it does. 15 Q So you have access to the same back street if 16 you were to go into the rear portion of 33 North Ft. 17 Harrison? 18 A Yes, I would. 19 Q Did you ever taunt or harass anyone during the 20 time that you attested to use the phone considering 21 the Bob's Barricades? 22 A No, I did not. 23 Q Did you yell anything into the phone or into 24 the church itself? 25 A No, I did not. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 68 1 Q Your sole purpose was to ask them about the 2 Bob's Barricades that was located in the position you 3 denoted? 4 A Correct. 5 Q When did you know the police were called 6 concerning what you had done? 7 A I didn't know they were called until much 8 later, I guess I would say half hour later when I 9 exited the building and I was called by the police 10 officer. 11 Q And then you answered the questions that appear 12 on the report? 13 A Yes, sir, with the exception that I never 14 agreed or stated that I looked through the cracks of 15 the building, nor that I was trespassing on any 16 property. 17 MR. DEVLAMING: Thank you. That is all 18 the questions I have. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Pope. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to make myself 21 useful for a moment. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q Mr. Prince, Mr. Sandy Weinberg. 25 A Yes, Mr. Weinberg. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 69 1 Q When this incident occurred what day was it? 2 A I believe it was the 7th. 3 Q You were an employee of the Lisa McPhearson 4 Trust at that time? 5 A No. 6 Q Well, when did you become an employee of the 7 Lisa McPhearson Trust? 8 A I have never been employed by the Lisa 9 McPhearson Trust. 10 Q I misunderstood what you said, when you were 11 asked what you did you said consistent working for 12 Mr. Dandar on the Lisa McPhearson case and that you 13 were employee of the Lisa McPhearson Trust; isn't that 14 what you said? 15 A No, that is incorrect. 16 Q What are you doing for the Lisa McPhearson 17 Trust? 18 A I volunteer. 19 Q You're a volunteer, that you work for the Lisa 20 McPhearson? 21 A I volunteer my services to the Lisa McPhearson 22 Trust. 23 Q It is fair to say that you work for the Lisa 24 McPhearson Trust? 25 A No, it is not. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 70 1 Q You do things for the Lisa McPhearson Trust? 2 A I volunteer. 3 Q Volunteer doing what? 4 A My services. I answer the phone. I clean. I 5 do what is needed. 6 Q You go out on the street and do what is told 7 and go out on the street and talk to Scientologists 8 and harass them and things like that, is that part of 9 your -- 10 MR. DEVLAMING: I object to the form of 11 the question, number one. And number two Mr. 12 Prince was put on specifically concerning this 13 report. And I ask anything outside the scope 14 of my direct be limited. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I think he -- 16 THE COURT: Let's do this. Rephrase the 17 question. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q Prior Mr. DeVlaming asked you whether you were 20 taunting or anything like that, my question is, since 21 we're trying to go through this, as part of your 22 duties as volunteer for the Lisa McPhearson Trust, is 23 standing outside -- 24 A No, no, sir. It is not. 25 Q So when you're doing that as we saw in the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 71 1 videos here, is that as volunteer for the Lisa 2 McPhearson Trust? 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Q Now, so with that, your protesting that is as 5 volunteer for Lisa McPhearson Trust? 6 A I never protested the Clearwater Bank building. 7 Q Excuse me? That was not you in the tape 8 talking to the police officer that we saw earlier 9 today? 10 A Correct. 11 Q That was not you in the tape? 12 A Yes, it was me in the tape, but there was no 13 protest, I simply stopped to speak to the officers. 14 Q Was that you in the tape saying things about 15 the Church of Scientology? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q That was not you. Now in the incident that you 18 said occurred on the 7th, do you remember that on the 19 9th police were called to the Waterson Avenue, 20 Waterson Street location that you were interviewed by 21 a female officer named Beck? 22 A Correct. 23 Q And you saw that under tab seven? 24 MR. DEVLAMING: I'm going to object. 25 This is outside the scope of direct. If ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 72 1 Mr. Weinberg would like to call this witness as 2 his own that is fine. All we did is talk about 3 tab six, and that is it. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Weinberg, you say -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: What I say is, what I 6 want to point out something that he said to the 7 officers that I think goes to the credibility 8 of the witness, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Which officer is this? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Officer Beck. 11 THE COURT: Excuse me, why would he be 12 talking to Officer Beck? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Because they were called 14 to the scene as a result of a complaint that 15 the Church made to the police about violations? 16 THE COURT: Of him using the telephone? 17 MR. WEINBERG: This is two days later. 18 THE COURT: I have to sustain the 19 objection. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q Let me ask you this. Have you denied to the 22 Clearwater Police that you were an agent of 23 Mr. Minton's or the Lisa McPhearson Trust? 24 A Yes. 25 MR. DEVLAMING: Objection. Predicate. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 73 1 I don't know when this may have occurred. 2 THE COURT: Date and time, please. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q On the 9th of January of this year? 5 A Could you ask the question again. I got 6 confused. People were talking at the same time. 7 Q Have you denied to the Clearwater Police that 8 you were an agent of Mr. Minton's or the Lisa 9 McPhearson Trust? 10 A Those are two separate trusts. I denied being 11 an agent of Mr. Minton to the Clearwater Police 12 Department, I recall that. 13 Q You denied being an agent? You don't consider 14 yourself an agent for Mr. Minton? 15 A No. 16 Q But you are a volunteer for the corporation? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And amongst your activities is to protest or 19 appear outside the church of Scientology and protest 20 against Scientology, right? 21 A No, that is not right. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have anything 23 further. 24 MR. DEVLAMING: Nothing further. 25 THE COURT: Call your next witness, sir. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 74 1 MR. DEVLAMING: Mr. Minton. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, come forward, 3 please. 4 I take it you're going to use the video? 5 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 6 THE COURT: Everybody on this side 7 started to move. All right. Go ahead. 8 MR. POPE: Excuse me. Which video is 9 this? 10 MR. DEVLAMING: October. 11 MR. POPE: October? 12 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. 13 MR. POPE: Your Honor, let me, before he 14 gets going here, let me object to the use of 15 this video. I have no question about its 16 authenticity, but it is a video of the 17 original -- October 3rd, 1999 that led to this 18 Court's original injunction. 19 THE COURT: It is video I have seen 20 before? 21 MR. DEVLAMING: No. 22 MR. POPE: You may or may not have seen, 23 but it has nothing to with any issue that is 24 before you today. You have already issued an 25 injunction based upon the altercation between ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 75 1 Mr. Howd and Mr. Minton and they want to show 2 you a video of it again. It doesn't make 3 sense. 4 THE COURT: All right. Mr. DeVlaming? 5 MR. DEVLAMING: It is about twelve 6 seconds in length, and it was not available to 7 us. This time charges have been brought. 8 THE COURT: Is this the one McCabe had. 9 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 12 Q What is your name? 13 A My name is Robert Minton. M-E-N-T-I-N. 14 Q Mr. Minton, on the 2nd day of December of last 15 year 1999 Judge Penick issued an order directing you 16 to stay within certain feet from the Church of 17 Scientology and certain buildings enumerated in his 18 order; have you followed that order? 19 A Yes, to the letter. 20 Q Have there been times when Clearwater Police 21 Department, police officers had conversations with you 22 that asked you to do something and you complied? 23 A Yes, I have always complied with any CWPD 24 requests that has ever been made. 25 Q Have you ever directed anyone, anyone, whether ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 76 1 they worked for the Lisa McPhearson Trust or not to 2 violate the injunctions by getting close to another 3 member of the Church of Scientology or church property 4 for the purpose of harassment? 5 A Absolutely not. 6 Q Okay. Mr. Pope did show an instance where you 7 were present where I think Mr. Prince was walking, was 8 marking off the distance? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Were there any other Scientologist within the 11 immediate area that you were trying to harass by that 12 activity? 13 A No. The purpose of that was this, was when the 14 police were in the middle of a very vague situation in 15 their own mind as to whether all Scientology security 16 people and all people tied up with the Lisa McPhearson 17 Trust were agents in their own right. And if in fact 18 three of the people from the Lisa McPhearson Trust 19 were threatened with arrest as were as least two 20 Scientology staffers that night, and therefore I asked 21 Jessie Prince if he would just step off twenty feet 22 roughly, and ten feet, because obviously I can't go 23 within ten feet. I wanted to see how far they had to 24 stay from us, basically that is why I asked Mr. Prince 25 to step if off from the building to have a general ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 77 1 idea. 2 Q When Chief Kline of the City of Clearwater 3 instituted the lines that were placed within the 4 safety zone around the unloading zone, although you 5 did not like it, did you comply with it? 6 A Yes, I have complied with it completely. There 7 was a lot of confusion at the beginning, even on the 8 part of the police officers that were out there. And 9 a number of times that the police on the scene had to 10 call out to get clarification as to what they should 11 be doing on the scene. And I have complied with it as 12 well as everybody on Waterson Avenue as far as I know. 13 Q Are you familiar with the ten names that 14 Mr. Pope has indicated and placed in his petition? 15 A Yes, I am. 16 Q And knowing all of those individuals are you 17 aware as to whether or not there is any one of them 18 that has consented to being enjoined voluntarily into 19 this injunction? 20 A None wish to be enjoined. 21 Q And certain questions were made or caused to be 22 asked over the course of the hearing about the type of 23 picketing that is going on now, are you familiar with 24 a type of activity that went on the night of October 25 31st, 1999? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 78 1 A Yes, I'm very aware of that. 2 Q And is there a ten to twelve second portion of 3 that close, which has now been coined picket chicken 4 incident? 5 A Yes, I saw that just the other day. 6 Q Could you tell us, Mr. Minton, has this type of 7 activity that is about to be shown in court, has that 8 stopped? 9 A Completely. There is nobody in anybody's face. 10 Q Okay. 11 (THEREUPON THE VIDEO WAS SHOWN.) 12 Q Is that you? 13 A Yes, it is. 14 Q Is that you in the white? 15 A Yes, it is. 16 (THEREUPON THE VIDEO WAS CONCLUDED.) 17 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 18 Q That was a very short snippet. Is that the way 19 that Mr. Howd was following you that night and filming 20 you, that close? 21 A Yes, that close. In another video I have seen 22 it was closer, but, yes. 23 MR. DEVLAMING: There could be more, 24 but, Your Honor just in case you saw, while it 25 went into another video, I didn't know whether ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 79 1 Mr. Pope was going to show what I call the 2 Jessie Prince video, so I included it on this 3 tape. You may have seen it go into another, 4 that is all that was. 5 THE COURT: You're moving that into 6 evidence at this time? Respondent's Exhibit 7 No. 5. 8 You have continuing objection. Same 9 ruling. I'll put it in evidence. 10 MR. POPE: All right. 11 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 12 Q Mr. Minton, if this Court were to add the ten 13 names that Mr. Pope has suggested to his Honor and yet 14 done nothing to enjoin any members of the Church of 15 Scientology, particularly the security division or 16 OSA, the Office of Special Affairs, what affect would 17 that have on this particular injunction in the way in 18 which it was enforced? 19 A Well, I believe it would be somewhat pointless 20 to name only people from the Lisa McPhearson Trust and 21 not the people of Church of Scientology Office of 22 Special Affairs. In fact, when we first came here, 23 even the picketing going on has really been 24 precipitated by the Church of Scientology. The first 25 day we were there in the new offices we had four post ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 80 1 security guys standing outside the office all day for 2 three days. I believe without similarly enjoining 3 them as Mr. Howd had been enjoined it wouldn't be a 4 very effective solution. 5 Q Lastly, Mr. Minton, when Captain Jones was on 6 the stand he indicated there was an incident involving 7 Stacy Brooks where a car was following another car or 8 stalking incident, would you please -- are you 9 familiar with that incident? 10 A I am familiar with that. That occurred last 11 Friday night. 12 Q Tell us about that. 13 A Seven of us were going in three different cars 14 to the Belview Biltmore Hotel for dinner. We had with 15 us at the time a current Scientology, a very high 16 ranking Scientologist, which wished to maintain his 17 anonymity from the Church while visiting the Lisa 18 McPhearson Trust for an entire weekend. He was 19 conscience -- he was very conscience about security 20 issues coming in and out of our office and we were 21 going to the Belview Biltmore. It was coming up to me 22 as we approached what we were followed by the car 23 behind us with four headlights, too many headlights 24 and headlights underneath, it looked suspicious, to 25 find out I'll turn right on Alexander Road. As I ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 81 1 turned right to Alexander Road, came to that street 2 made another right, turn and ran to the stop light. 3 We -- Stacy Brooks stepped out of the car at my 4 request to see if it was Jessie Prince' lights 5 following us, because he was one of the three car 6 loads going to the Belview Biltmore. The gentleman 7 proceeded to -- as he approached us he pealed out to 8 the left side of our car, ran through the stop sign 9 and we figured that this person was following us. And 10 the gentleman in the back was concerned about that. 11 And I said, look, let Stacy, get your pen out, we're 12 going to catch up with the guy and get the license 13 plate and find out who he was. 14 We got up to the car before we got up to north, 15 or to Ft. Harrison, South Ft. Harrison I believe it is 16 there. At the light, Bellair Road I believe it is 17 called, and he had no license plate. So then we 18 immediately called the police and went through 19 transferring police calls from 911 to the Clearwater 20 Police Department and eventually to Dunedin, I believe 21 is the town north of Clearwater, and then they came 22 back, the guy turned around and came back into 23 Clearwater and we followed him. And at some point he 24 was doing very high speed maneuvers and ran into a 25 chain link fence. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 82 1 When the police did arrive they asked him what 2 he was doing and he said that we had actually been 3 following him, stalking him. 4 MR. POPE: Objection. He is testifying 5 for a witness. This is hearsay. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 8 Q Let me ask you, by that time had the license 9 plate been placed back on the vehicle to your 10 knowledge? 11 A It had not. There was, however, a paper, 12 temporary license plate in the rear view window facing 13 the front of the car, not something you could read 14 from the rear of the car. 15 Q And was his name given to the police as well as 16 people in your car? 17 A Yet, it was. It is in the incident report. 18 Q Do you know whether he was affiliated with the 19 Church of Scientology? 20 A Absolutely? No, but I'm quite confident. 21 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. 22 Speculating. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. POPE: Move to strike the whole 25 testimony about the wild goose chase for ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 83 1 somebody that is unidentified. 2 THE COURT: I'll sustain. The objection 3 or motion to strike is denied. 4 MR. DEVLAMING: No further questions. 5 THE COURT: Now you may have a chance. 6 MR. POPE: Thank you. 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. POPE: 9 Q Mr. Minton, you have not filed a motion in this 10 proceeding to add the names of any Scientologists to 11 the injunction, have you, Sir? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. And you understand that you have the 14 right to do that, don't you, Sir? 15 A Well, Mr. Pope -- 16 Q Can you answer my question, please. 17 A I'm going to answer your question. 18 THE COURT: Just a minute. Just a 19 minute. I'm going to jump in the middle okay. 20 Now, Mr. Pope, I got it. 21 Mr. Minton, here is how it goes. 22 Mr. Pope gets to ask the question. I'm asking 23 you to listen to the question, think about it a 24 minute and answer it as specifically and as 25 direct as possible. If it calls for yes or no ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 84 1 give yes or no and say, may I explain. If 2 Mr. Pope says no that will have given enough 3 time for Mr. DeVlaming or Ms. Rivellini or 4 Mr. DeVlaming, the other one, to make a note to 5 themself to follow-up, to make a note to ask 6 you. There are several rules we're going to 7 follow. Mr. Pope, now rephrase it. Re-ask 8 that question. 9 BY MR. POPE: 10 Q Mr. Minton, you do understand that if some 11 particular Scientologist or group of Scientologists is 12 bugging you you have a right to file a motion to add 13 them to this proceeding, you understand that don't 14 you? It is very easy question; you do? 15 A No. 16 Q You do not understand? 17 A No, I do not understand. 18 Q At any rate you indicated you have not filed 19 such a motion? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Now, Mr. Minton, you are the incorporator and 22 show up as the sole officer, director and incorporator 23 of the McPhearson Corporation? 24 A The Lisa McPhearson Trust, yes, sir. 25 Q And it is not a trust, it is a corporation, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 85 1 isn't it? 2 A The name of it is the Lisa McPhearson Trust, 3 Incorporated. 4 Q I understand what the name is, but it is not a 5 trust as we know that in the law is it? It is a 6 corporation? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q That is all I wanted you to tell me. Now you, 9 that is your corporation and you are funding that 10 corporation, are you not, Sir? 11 A It is not my corporation. I am the person who 12 incorporated it. I am funding it at the moment, but I 13 don't consider it to be my corporation. 14 Q Mr. Minton, let's call your attention to your 15 internet posting of November 3, 1999, do you need a 16 copy of that to refresh your memory or do you 17 remember? 18 A I don't know which one you're talking about. 19 Q Let me bring one. 20 MR. POPE: This is tab, this is tab 21 three in our materials, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Thank you. 23 MR. POPE: If I may approach the bench? 24 THE COURT: You may. 25 MR. POPE: Thank you, Your Honor. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 86 1 BY MR. POPE: 2 Q Here you go Mr. Minton. Do you remember that 3 one Mr. Minton? 4 A I do. 5 Q Would you go down to the bottom of the first 6 page of that you state, I would like to add my 7 enormous thanks to the following people who agreed to 8 serve in various capacities for the Lisa McPhearson 9 Trust. And then among others you identify Peter 10 Alexander, don't you? 11 A Yes, he is on there. 12 Q Stacy Brooks? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Patricia Greenway? 15 A Sorry, are you skipping some of them? 16 Q Yes, I'm going to cover the ten that I want 17 joined in the action. 18 A Yes, Patricia Greenway is on there. 19 Q Brian Haney? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Bob Minton? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Duncan Pierce? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Jessie Prince? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 87 1 A Yes. 2 Q David -- how do you say the last name? 3 A Cercere. 4 Q David Cercere? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now, in introducing the rest of them several 7 board members will be active in staff positions, but 8 the real work horses will be, and you identify David 9 Cecere, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Kim Baker? 12 A Right. 13 Q Mark Bunker? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And Brady Ward? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And what you said in the internet posting is it 18 true the description of relationship of these 19 individuals to the corporation that you formed is 20 true, isn't it? 21 A Well, at the time it was true. It is different 22 now. But, yes, all of the people are still involved 23 in the Lisa McPhearson Trust in one way or another. 24 Q And you saw the videotape we played in here in 25 which several of the people were picketing and ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 88 1 carrying signs around the Bank of Clearwater building, 2 didn't you? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And in doing so were they not performing 5 services either for pay or voluntary, or whatever, for 6 the McPhearson Corporation? 7 A No. And may I explain? 8 Q Of course you may. 9 A All of these people who you have seen doing any 10 sort of picketing there have been picketing the Church 11 of Scientology for four or five years, long before I 12 even came on the scene. This is not something that is 13 new to them. 14 Q Well, I didn't ask you if it was something new 15 to them. They are, the question is, aren't they doing 16 this now in connection with the McPhearson Trust? 17 A I answered that already as definite no. I'll 18 repeat it. Definitely not. 19 Q What is their capacity then in this protest? 20 A It is up -- there are numerous people who are 21 inside the Lisa McPhearson Trust, people who don't go 22 out and picket. It is up to any individual if they 23 want to go out and picket. 24 Q But these statements that you made in your 25 internet posting about the affiliation of these people ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 89 1 with the Lisa McPhearson Trust is accurate, is it not? 2 A What do you mean the affiliation. 3 Q When you state these people agreed to serve in 4 various capacity for the Lisa McPhearson Trust, that 5 is true, isn't it? 6 A Yes, of the ones you mentioned too, other than 7 officers or staff of the Lisa McPhearson Trust are 8 directors. The rest are officers and staff of the 9 Lisa McPhearson Trust. 10 Q They're affiliated in some capacity with the 11 Lisa McPhearson Trust; correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q All right. That is all we wanted to hear from 14 you. That is it. Thank you. 15 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 16 THE COURT: Redirect? 17 MR. DEVLAMING: Just one. 18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 20 Q Mr. Minton, if Judge Penick were today to add 21 thirteen names of the enforcement division of the 22 Office of Special Affairs of the Church of 23 Scientology, you think that those same thirteen people 24 may be relocated before we even left the building? 25 MR. POPE: Objection on two grounds. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 90 1 The first it is speculation. Secondly, he is 2 asking the Court to consider joining unnamed 3 Scientologists when they haven't filed a motion 4 to do that. 5 MR. DEVLAMING: My response, Mr. Pope 6 asked this witness whether he filed a motion to 7 add names himself, this question goes to why, 8 and I think I know the answer to the question 9 why he did not. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 12 Q Would it work? 13 A I'm sorry, Mr. DeVlaming could you repeat the 14 question. I lost you. 15 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming. Let's do it 16 this way. Madam Court Reporter, read back the 17 question. 18 (THEREUPON THE LAST QUESTION WAS READ BACK.) 19 MR. POPE: Your Honor, as to that 20 question, that is so speculative. How can this 21 witness say what unnamed people might do? That 22 is a totally improper question. 23 THE COURT: Look, Mr. Pope, I tell you 24 what here, Mr. Pope, here is where we're at. 25 Certainly you asked him, did you file a motion ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 91 1 adding those names. Now Mr. DeVlaming is 2 certainly entitled to explore why don't you do 3 that. But since this is Mr. DeVlaming's 4 question, or witness, right, I'm going to 5 strike it as a leading question. He can ask it 6 another way. 7 MR. DEVLAMING: I'll do that. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. Proceed. 9 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 10 Q Mr. Minton, why did you not file? 11 THE COURT: Now what objection do you 12 have, Mr. Pope? 13 MR. POPE: Well, Your Honor, we're just 14 playing games here. He can -- 15 THE COURT: From what point to what 16 point? 17 MR. POPE: Your Honor, he asked a proper 18 question as to his motive, but the witness 19 can't just stand up on the witness stand and 20 wildly speculate to the answer. He is asking 21 him something he has no personal knowledge of. 22 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, if he was asked 23 on -- 24 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, overruled. 25 BY MR. DEVLAMING: ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 92 1 Q Why don't you file a motion adding the names of 2 those folks? 3 A Well, two reasons. In order to save the 4 Court's time in this whole matter we did propose to 5 add all of the officers -- 6 MR. POPE: Objection, Your Honor. He is 7 getting into settlement negotiations. It is 8 improper. 9 BY MR. DEVLAMING: 10 Q Mr. Minton, go to number two. 11 A Okay. Number two is that the people who might 12 be named as staff of the Office of Special Affairs in 13 Clearwater, the tendency on the Church of Scientology 14 is to move the people around to Los Angeles. 15 Q Objection, Your Honor. He has no expertise to 16 establish in here as to testify as to anybody's 17 tenancy, and this is speculation. It is improper 18 question and improper answer and I move to strike it. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 20 MR. DEVLAMING: No further questions. 21 THE COURT: I'll give you recross. 22 MR. POPE: Nothing further, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you may have a 24 seat by your counsel. Thank you. Call your 25 next witness, Mr. DeVlaming. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 93 1 MR. DEVLAMING: Judge, there aren't 2 anymore. Since it's Mr. Pope's motion I don't 3 know if he'll go first. I want to let you know 4 that my brother is going to address the court 5 first. Mr. Howie is going to handle legal 6 argument. If there is rebuttal I'll do the 7 tail end very briefly. But we're done. We 8 rest. 9 THE COURT: It was Mr. Pope's motion. 10 MR. DEVLAMING: I know it is. I'm 11 saying we have no more evidence to present, 12 Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pope. 14 MR. POPE: Your Honor -- 15 THE COURT: Let the record reflect no 16 time limit. 17 MR. POPE: I believe that brevity is the 18 sole of the good argument. I'm going to try to 19 be brief. 20 May it please the court. Your Honor, 21 let's look at the practicalities of this. We 22 have two parties here. We have Scientologists 23 been here in the community for twenty-five 24 years. We have a group that is quite hostile 25 to them that has come to town recently and ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 94 1 bought a piece of property thirty feet away 2 from the dining hall and has launched a fairly 3 aggressive campaign of going around and bugging 4 them, for lack of a better word, okay, 5 harassing them. Now as a consequence of all 6 this because of an incident that occurred in 7 October you entered an injunction that is 8 fairly well thought out and does most of the 9 job. 10 We have wandered far and wide in this 11 matter today away from the narrow issue that is 12 before you, and the narrow issue before you is 13 should you clarify this injunction to make it 14 easier for the parties to deal with it. It is 15 going to be easier for the police to deal with 16 it if they know who they're dealing with. And 17 we have gotten Mr. Minton to identify the ten 18 people that are on the Lisa McPhearson Trust, 19 one way or the other, although he wanted to be 20 gage(phonetic) about it, are under his spell 21 and under the control or taken direction from 22 the McPhearson Corporation. 23 All we're asking in this thing is for 24 you to make a determination that these people 25 are in fact acting in concert and ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 95 1 participation. And let me say this, Your 2 Honor, about dropping the language, remember 3 that discussion we had about dropping that 4 language from the injunction, that language is 5 in the rule, the rule of procedure, whether it 6 is in there or not it is the law, so. 7 THE COURT: But -- 8 MR. POPE: The language ought to be in 9 there. The option of dropping that language 10 out is not an option because it is in the rule 11 of procedures. 12 Now, if you want to have some control 13 over what is going on out there and you want to 14 specify some control and give the Clearwater 15 Police some direction we're asking that you 16 find these ten people to be acting as agents of 17 Mr. Minton. And even if you don't want to do 18 that, grant my motion for leave to add them to 19 the injunction, we'll act on them directly. 20 Now, they say, well, if you're going to 21 do that you have to add some Scientologists, 22 they haven't suggested name one. There are 23 thousands of Scientologists in the community, 24 what do they want to do, add 10,000 names to 25 the thing? The fact is there has not been a ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 96 1 shred of evidence in here today that the 2 Scientologist have done anything except try to 3 avoid Mr. Minton. They don't want to engage 4 this guy. They, they didn't seek him out and 5 say, we're going to bother you. He sought them 6 out and bought a place right next door to them 7 so he could bother them. And he is entitled, 8 he is entitled to say his peace as long as he 9 is under some civilized guidelines so that the 10 rights of these people to their religion and 11 freedom is protected. 12 The narrow question is should the folks 13 be named as defendants so the injunction can be 14 affective. We could have done something else. 15 We could have filed a separate lawsuit against 16 them. I mean, this, this is the easy light way 17 to do this, Judge. I mean, there is nothing to 18 it. There is no more to it than that. 19 I would like to save an opportunity for 20 rebuttal. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. All 22 right. Mr. Douglas DeVlaming. 23 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Thank you, Your 24 Honor. I would like to address the Court very 25 briefly on one particular issue. Is the clerk ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 97 1 still here? 2 THE COURT: No. 3 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: What about the 4 exhibits? 5 THE COURT: I have it. What would you 6 like? 7 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: The three 8 particular photographs in regard to the zoning. 9 Judge, if it ain't broke don't fix it. 10 I think you heard from Captain Jones that apart 11 from the enforcement side of it there hasn't 12 been any real problems. A lot of knit picking 13 here about where somebody might be standing, 14 but certainly not what they're doing. 15 I would like the Court to take note of 16 the fact that the Exhibit No. 1 shows an aerial 17 view of the zone that was placed by the 18 Clearwater Police. It does not show the 19 opposite side of the street. It shows the 20 Clearwater Bank Building and a sidewalk that 21 runs along here on the other side of the 22 street, and that is shown in these two, No. 2 23 and No. 3. And judge -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a 25 minute. Wait a minute. Hold the one in your ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 98 1 left hand up, left hand. That white line runs 2 across the street and up the sidewalk? 3 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: On the sidewalk. 4 MR. DEVLAMING: Yes, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Mr. DeVlaming, asking you no 6 outbursts. Go ahead. 7 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, what is 8 happening here, the general public is being 9 restricted from access to this sidewalk during 10 times when the Church of Scientology is doing 11 the loading and unloading, and that I know that 12 the Court is very well aware of. 13 Judy Doolittle back during World War II, 14 he trained for the mission in Tokyo in 15 Colombia, South Carolina. Back in 1980 16 sometime the town airport authority had the 17 Doolittle memorabilia out at the airport draped 18 from view to prevent a Japanese trade 19 delegation that was coming to town to keep them 20 from being offended. And what is being done 21 here, Judge, is that the first amendment is 22 being draped. It is being draped by a group of 23 individuals who have inane power of authority 24 in our community to attempt to stifle anyone to 25 speak up against them. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 99 1 And I ask you, there has been -- there 2 has been request made of this court to expand 3 the injunction to create a greater zone. That 4 is going to create even greater restriction on 5 liberty and access to the people in Clearwater. 6 Judge, there is aerial view of this to 7 the left, you're right, Your Honor, and it has 8 blue lines around properties, and it's 9 basically a mine field. You can't go anywhere 10 in downtown Clearwater without coming in 11 contact with a church property. And it is 12 expanding as we speak. The Church would ask 13 that you expand this zone to include entire 14 sidewalk, or two/thirds of the sidewalk on the 15 southern part of Waterson Avenue. And I have 16 to ask, what prattle would taking away the 17 sidewalk on the opposite side of the street do 18 to, for public safety or avoid confrontation 19 between the two parties? Absolutely none. 20 I respectfully ask the Court to allow 21 the injunction to stay in place as it is. 22 There is another court that is yet to rule in 23 this matter, and it is the court of public 24 opinion. And I would suggest to this Court 25 that that is the reason why this injunction has ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 100 1 worked so well, if you start limiting it to 2 particular parties then other parties will feel 3 they're not obligated to abide by this 4 injunction. The people of Clearwater are going 5 to really be the ones that decide who is right 6 and who is wrong in this particular matter. I 7 would think that the Church of Scientology 8 would embrace Mr. Minton and his people if they 9 felt that the message did not have merit, but I 10 believe that is not the case, and that they're 11 going to be back here again and again 12 complaining about the fact that Mr. Minton is 13 causing them trouble by his free speech. 14 There have been a lot of people that 15 paid a high price for first amendment, and I 16 ask the Court to honor that here today. Thank 17 you. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court. 20 The injunction the Court issued is working and 21 there is no reason to change it. The Court 22 issued that injunction on a very specific 23 situation. It had Mr. Minton with the protest 24 side and Mr. Howd with his notes, and when it 25 came in conflict the Court addressed that ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 101 1 situation, handled -- balanced the interest and 2 balanced the first amendment considerations and 3 came up with symmetrical agreement between 4 Mr. Minton personally and Mr. Howd personally. 5 The Court followed the law on injunction 6 in posting that injunction on the two 7 individuals involved pursuant to the Rules of 8 Civil Procedures, 1.610, so to include the 9 language about agency. Now, the Church of 10 Scientology has taken the language concerning 11 the agency and has taken expansive view of the 12 Court's authority to enjoin anybody they asked 13 the Court to enjoin. 14 Mr. Pope has told the Court this is the 15 easy light way to do this. It is the easy 16 right -- light way to do it because it is not 17 the right way to do it. The right way to do it 18 is to have some cause for enjoining the 19 particular individuals. What is Mr. Pope's 20 basis? His basis is that these people are 21 named in a posting along with other names who 22 are not mentioned here, for some reason not 23 known to Mr. Pope and the Scientologist, to 24 enjoin those individuals as Mr. Minton's 25 agents. I have heard nothing from the other ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 102 1 side concerning the law of injunction and how 2 the law of injunction allows this Court to 3 include specifically the names of those 4 individuals who the Church of Scientology has 5 shown no cause for enjoining other than a 6 posting on the internet. 7 The Court should apply the language of 8 it's own order concerning agency in a proper 9 fashion. If these people are in fact 10 demonstrated to be the employees or agents or 11 people acting in concert with Mr. Minton then 12 they are subject to the injunction as long as 13 there is notice to those individuals of the 14 injunction. 15 Note in the appendix to the petitioners 16 motion for clarification there are some 17 affidavits showing who was present in the court 18 when the injunction was entered. This is 19 implied to require that they show that there 20 was actual notice, but there are some names on 21 the list of ten that come up missing as far as 22 the affidavits are concerned. 23 Take, for example, the name of Kim 24 Baker. Kim Baker is one of those people that 25 they're asking the court to enjoin. There is ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 103 1 nothing in the appendix or in the face of the 2 motion that shows that Kim Baker did anything, 3 that Kim Baker came up to our building, that 4 Kim Baker used the phone, or that she was in 5 fact in the courtroom at the time of the 6 injunction, or that she otherwise acted as an 7 agent or employee of Mr. Minton. Apart from 8 the fact that her name is placed on this 9 posting along with several other names as 10 someone involved with the Lisa McPhearson 11 Trust. 12 The Church of Scientology is attempting 13 to show that somehow the Lisa McPhearson Trust 14 is the alter ego of Robert Minton, therefore if 15 you're associated with the Lisa McPhearson 16 Trust Corporation you're associated with Robert 17 Minton and therefore you must automatically be 18 enjoined from the Church of Scientology. It 19 doesn't work that way. 20 As the Court is aware the Lisa 21 McPhearson Trust Corporation is an independent 22 corporation. It may have been the alter ego of 23 Mr. Minton once it was created, but once it is 24 created it has a life of its own. How far will 25 it go? How far will the Lisa McPhearson Trust ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 104 1 be perpetuated, if it is perpetuated and more 2 names added to the courts -- how far will the 3 names included on the Court's injunction? It 4 could run into the hundreds. It is time not to 5 allow that. If they have a reason or causal 6 ground to enjoin each individual member then 7 they should raise the reasons properly and show 8 cause why the Court should enjoin that 9 particular individual or include that 10 particular individual as defendant. 11 Now, concerning the law of injunction. 12 First, it is our position that the Church of 13 Scientology has adequate remedy of law as to 14 those instances which they describe in the 15 appendix where they claim there they have been 16 a trespass by an individual on their building, 17 specifically the event involving Mr. Prince on 18 January 8th walking up to the building. If 19 they felt there was in fact a criminal offense 20 they have trespass warning and they have claims 21 of trespass to work with. If they have a 22 adequate remedy of law and because an 23 injunction is not meant to prevent criminal 24 acts, they have that remedy and have always 25 found, Revel Insurance vs. Connelly, BGH ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 105 1 Insurance Syndicate vs. Prudential Fire, 2 (phonetic) all in support of that idea. 3 There has been no violation of the 4 injunction that compels clarification. 5 Mr. Minton has been in full compliance. He has 6 been described as cooperative. The police had 7 no problems with him. The police as far as 8 they're concerned have no problems with anybody 9 acting under his accord, be it during this 10 picketing. 11 Concerning the white lines, there is 12 adequate remedy at law. The City has the 13 authority to place the white lines across 14 Waterson and to enforce under a local ordinance 15 how the unloading and loading of buses shall 16 occur within the white lines. Again, adequate 17 remedy of law. The Court's injunction was 18 after the trust was created. At that time the 19 Church of Scientology did not ask the Court to 20 enjoin the Trust of posting the internet 21 existed at that time. At that time the Church 22 of Scientology did not ask the Court to enjoin 23 the individuals on that posted. If they had 24 caused -- if they had cause now they had cause 25 then. There is no more cause now then they had ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 106 1 at the time. There is no need for that 2 clarification. 3 Now, the law has been in the state of 4 Florida for 134 years that any actual notice of 5 injunction to an agent is, Thebaut & Glazier 6 vs. Canova, 1866 case. If the Church of 7 Scientology can establish that a person 8 received actual notice of injunction and if 9 they can establish at law that the person acted 10 as agent, et cetera, then they can enforce the 11 injunction as to that individual. Plain and 12 simple, they have that offer. But instead, 13 using Mr. Pope's line again, if they want to 14 take the easy light way to do it by including 15 names while they have not shown cause for 16 injunction, the law is that injunction should 17 rarely, if ever, citing City of Jacksonville 18 vs. Naegele Outdoor Advertising Company, Inc. 19 Incidentally, if anyone wants citations I will 20 provide those. 21 THE COURT: The court reporter does. 22 MR. HOWIE: 634 So.2d, 75. First DCA 23 case. Thebaut & Glazier vs. Canova, 11 24 Florida, 143. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. What court? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 107 1 MR. HOWIE: Florida Supreme Court. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 3 MR. HOWIE: Beg your pardon. The 4 problem with naming people who are not parties 5 to the defense ties to the injunction or by 6 trying to bring people in as defendants when 7 they haven't even been served and not to the 8 injunction action. The Court does not have 9 personal jurisdiction over those people who 10 have not actually been served. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, let me ask you 12 something. Mr. Pope stood up and he said, 13 Judge you can't take that language out of there 14 it is the law. 15 MR. HOWIE: He is right. 16 THE COURT: And you said that, and you 17 just said he is right. 18 MR. HOWIE: Right. 19 THE COURT: And I read that in the cases 20 and I read that in the rule. But what is 21 interesting here, what intrigues me, we're 22 instructed to write that in the injunction 23 order. 24 MR. HOWIE: Right. 25 THE COURT: But how does the Clearwater ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 108 1 Police Department enforce it? 2 MR. HOWIE: It's -- 3 THE COURT: You say you can't add the 4 names of an individual who hasn't been named or 5 a motion made to add them to the injunction in 6 the suit, and you have to show that those 7 people have done something, actually done 8 something, right? 9 MR. HOWIE: Right. 10 THE COURT: Now that would be to add 11 their names, you have to show that there is 12 irreparable harm, all the things we have to 13 have to get them included in the injunction. 14 MR. HOWIE: Correct. 15 THE COURT: But yet we can put, we're 16 instructed by the legislature, this is more, 17 this is for -- but there is language in there, 18 how do you know who the officers, agents, 19 servants and employees are if you don't name 20 them. How do you name them if they haven't 21 done anything? 22 MR. HOWIE: You can't name them if they 23 haven't done anything, that is the point. Why 24 should we ask the Court to enforce the 25 injunction. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 109 1 THE COURT: Why did I put that language 2 in the first place and make it easier on the 3 police department. 4 MR. HOWIE: You can't throw it out. If 5 they violate the injunction and the person was 6 acting under the control of Mr. Minton by the 7 observation of the officer the officer has the 8 right to enforce the injunction. The -- we 9 should not simply start naming names without 10 cause. You must first have cause why the 11 people were on the injunction in the first 12 place. 13 I agree with the premise if you agree 14 with the police too, that is why we have 15 Mr. Minton and Mr. Howd. The language 16 concerning the agency also allows the police to 17 act if by their own observation somebody is 18 acting as an agent. But we should not simply 19 say it because they don't see somebody acting 20 as agent we should give them a bunch of names 21 and now they can go ahead and enforce against 22 the people even though they're not truly 23 agents, that violates the law of injunction. 24 There has to be some cause, that is why 25 I suggested Kim Baker. I invite the court to ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 110 1 review all the things and look for the name of 2 Kim Baker anywhere. I ask, invite the Court to 3 look at the amendment to Petitioner's verified 4 motion and find those two individual's name on 5 that that have done anything that invites 6 injunction. Just because these people are 7 associated with Mr. Minton in some capacity 8 does not mean they should be enjoined. 9 Just because Mr. Minton created a 10 corporation, which is now a corporation and 11 bringing more people in doesn't mean that 12 everybody in the corporation should be subject 13 to the injunction. 14 The law is, under Riddick vs. SunCoast 15 Beauty College, a Second DCA case, 1990, 570 16 So.2d 1064. It is only when people actually A, 17 the enjoined parties that they may be subject 18 to the injunction is that was a situation where 19 employees of beauty school were determined to 20 be non-parties over which the court did not 21 have personal jurisdiction, unless or until 22 they actually acted as the agents of the party. 23 But at least the court had the standard that 24 you had to show that they were active, so you 25 have to demonstrate notice of the injunction ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 111 1 and action that they aided or acting in concert 2 with and you have enough to enforce the 3 injunction against them. 4 The fact that the employees have not 5 enforced the injunction against anybody else 6 merely indicates the first premise that the 7 injunction is working. There was no single 8 cause brought before this Court that shows that 9 the Clearwater Police would have enforced the 10 injunction against an individual but for the 11 fact that individual is not named, and it is 12 highly speculative to say that that situation 13 will occur when they see somebody acting as an 14 agent of and they have actual notice of the 15 injunction based on the information already 16 presented to the court and that the Clearwater 17 Police can't do a thing about it. That is 18 simply a wrong interpretation. 19 Hold on one moment, Your Honor. I 20 believe I have exhausted my precedent. I would 21 only add that the police have done a good job 22 working with both sides in this case. Both 23 sides have been cooperative. The Court has 24 controlled over anyone that turns out to be an 25 agent, and has actual notice of this injunction ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 112 1 as to these ten individuals. If the Court were 2 to look at each name rather than the list as a 3 whole the court should rightly have questions 4 about whether there is any cause shown from 5 enjoining each and everyone of these 6 individuals, because if the Court holds that 7 any list provided by the Church of Scientology 8 should be enjoined as a whole we're going to 9 see more lists in this court. I ask the Court 10 at the end of the hearing -- 11 THE COURT: Let's do this just a minute. 12 Before you get up Mr. Pope. We have gone a 13 little longer than I anticipated. I am the 14 duty judge right now. I have to take a break 15 right now and check the status of something 16 else. I'll be back. I missed time. 17 (THEREUPON A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 18 THE COURT: You are the press, right. 19 THE PRESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: So you know, I'm not going 21 to rule today any way. I don't want to keep 22 you around or get in trouble like last time, 23 far greater minds than mine have wrestled with 24 the parties worldwide. I'm going to have to 25 think about it. I want you to know if there is ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 113 1 an editor saying, what is Penick up to, tell 2 him he is thinking about it. I'm going to tell 3 them Wednesday. In fact, attorneys, at 1:30 4 I'm going to announce my decision. Wednesday 5 at 1:30, right back here. I need some time. I 6 want to hear from you all. I want to hear what 7 you're going to say, and I have to mull this 8 over. 9 And you two, I need to play with the 10 books. I'm going to go back there. And if you 11 want to -- excuse me, if you want to hear 12 Mr. Pope's eloquent rebuttal you can stay. 13 MR. POPE: It is your call. Time for 14 eloquent rebuttal. 15 MR. DEVLAMING: Time for fat ladies to 16 sing. 17 MR. POPE: May it please the court, Your 18 Honor, the elder Mr. DeVlaming started out by 19 saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. So 20 let's look at how it was in early January when 21 we started this business. And in early January 22 Mr. Minton and his colleagues had come to town 23 and the purpose, that is stated in his internet 24 posting down at the very bottom, his last 25 sentence is, again, many thanks to everyone who ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 114 1 has agreed to be part of this exciting and 2 dynamic effort to expose Scientology and all 3 destructive mind control cults. 4 So that is what his purpose is. He is 5 in town for the expressed purpose of exposing 6 Scientology. And they set about to do that. 7 And of course you entered your injunction which 8 put some ground rules in place, and we do need 9 ground rules here, because Mr. Minton and his 10 colleagues are infused with a missionary seal 11 to do this exposing that they want to do. They 12 have made it an apparent life cause. They're 13 full of righteousness about their cause and 14 they have every right to do that, and they have 15 every right to spread their word, but they have 16 got to do it within the bounds of the Church's 17 rights and the rights of the people who are 18 going in and out of that building trying to eat 19 their meals. 20 So, what happened was they lunched a 21 picketing drive at meal time around there and 22 they were right in the faces of these folks 23 that you saw in the video. They were on the 24 sidewalk as they come out of the buses in much 25 of a way that they could, that these people ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 115 1 could avoid them being right in the face. And 2 I do have some law, Your Honor, I would like to 3 give you and give counsel. 4 I found, actually what I thought was a 5 fabulous law review article in the Cornell Law 6 Journal, and I'll give you a copy of it. It 7 deals with focused picketing, where you have 8 somebody trapped in a place where they have to 9 go. And it talks about specifically picketing 10 of religious establishments. So, and this is a 11 1999 article reviews all of the latest cases. 12 And I will tell you right now that you have 13 ample authority, you have ample authority based 14 on the Constitution of the United States and 15 the State of Florida and your inherent 16 equitable power to set basic guidelines. And 17 we're not asking for much here. 18 We're asking for you to affirm what the 19 police had done with regard to the white 20 stripes over Waterson to keep Mr. Minton and 21 his people out of that area when the vans are 22 loading and unloading at the three meal times a 23 day. Waterson is hardly a pedestrian -- hardly 24 anyone goes down Waterson except for Mr. Minton 25 and his folks and the Scientologists. I don't ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 116 1 think anybody else ventures down that street. 2 So, do that. 3 But more importantly, Your Honor, there 4 is competent substantial evidence before you 5 from which you may conclude that, and we're 6 dealing with the preponderance of the evidence 7 here. There is evidence in the internet 8 postings, there is evidence from Mr. Minton's 9 own testimony. There is evidence in the 10 videotapes that these folks that Mr. Minton 11 brought to town for the purpose of exposing 12 Scientology are acting in active concert and 13 participation with him. You can make that 14 finding, Your Honor. And we're asking you to 15 make the finding that the ten people whose 16 names are in our motion, and I amended and had 17 two more people, we're just asking you to make 18 that finding so that, so that we can have a 19 basis then for adding these folks as party 20 defendants. 21 Now let's talk about the procedure for 22 doing this. The way you do it is you grant my 23 motion for leave to add them as defendants. I 24 then have to serve them with the complaint and 25 all the orders that have gone on in the case ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 117 1 they have actually already been served with the 2 injunction. And they have every right as the 3 defendant to come in, they can move, if they 4 contend that it doesn't apply to them that 5 they're not involved in this, they can move to 6 dissolve it. They can move -- they have every 7 right of every civil defendant in every 8 injunction case. 9 All you're doing, Your Honor, if you 10 want to have control over what is going on out 11 there between the church that has been here for 12 twenty-five years and Mr. Minton and his folks 13 coming in here to expose it, if you want to set 14 out the civil guidelines you need to do this, 15 because if you don't do it is just going to be, 16 we're going to be back here. And we may be 17 back anyway. I don't believe there is an order 18 that you can draw that will resolve this 19 problem. Okay. 20 THE COURT: I'll take judicial notice of 21 that. 22 MR. POPE: But we can do it in 23 installments. 24 THE COURT: That is when I have said 25 earlier, I have got job security on this case. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 118 1 MR. POPE: And this is one of the steps 2 you can take. And these folks, as we pointed 3 out in our verified motion, these folks haven't 4 challenged your injunction, the Scientologists 5 haven't. They have really instructed their 6 people not to engage Mr. Minton. This is not 7 the Scientologists going out there and trying 8 to stir up trouble, they're having trouble 9 brought to their front door. And they're 10 saying, protect us Judge. Give us the 11 guidelines and protect us so we can exercise 12 our rights to, and this is what this is all 13 about. 14 I like to make these things as brief as 15 I can and I will conclude with a couple of 16 remarks. You, and I may be repeating myself, 17 you do have before you competent substantial 18 evidence that will allow you to draw the 19 conclusion that I have recommended. And you, 20 if you want to control the situation you're 21 going to have to clarify the injunction and 22 name Mr. Minton's colleagues as defendants as 23 we have requested; and they will have all the 24 rights of any defendant. 25 THE COURT: All right. Hold on. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 119 1 MR. POPE: All right. 2 THE COURT: All right. Now what? 3 Competent substantial evidence here today. 4 Okay. Here today. 5 Mr. Prince, from the prior hearing and 6 as seen in evidence, Mark Bunker, and I heard 7 the name Stacy Brooks. Now that is the only 8 three names that I remember today out of all 9 the people that you named have I gotten 10 anything to deal with, quite frankly. How did 11 you come up with those other names? 12 MR. POPE: Your Honor, if you will look 13 at Exhibit 3. Exhibit 3 in our appendix has a 14 list of the people. 15 THE COURT: I saw that. But now where 16 is Dave Cercere, why don't you -- 17 MR. POPE: He is not involved to the 18 best we can tell. 19 THE COURT: Well his name is right here. 20 It says Dave Cercere. Boy, that guy can't get 21 away from this to save his life. 22 MR. POPE: Well, Your Honor, just to 23 show you the restraint we're trying to do here. 24 We're not coming in here asking you to enjoin 25 every single one, just the ones -- ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 120 1 THE COURT: I know that. 2 MR. POPE: We're only naming the ones -- 3 THE COURT: That's what worries me. Why 4 you picking and choosing? 5 MR. POPE: Because they're the ones on 6 the picket line. If you look at the index to 7 the, to the video you'll find those people who 8 were identified on the video. 9 Now -- now, there may be two of the 10 people who were not identified on that video 11 index, and they were Mr. Haney, or Mr. Pierce I 12 think, Duncan Pierce and Haney. I will concede 13 to you that I do not have anything in here 14 other than their names on the, on the internet 15 posting that links them to the issues in 16 question. 17 But if you will look at that, if the 18 video is in evidence you can see those are the 19 folks who are on the video and those are the 20 names of the ones that we ask you to join. 21 I'll also, if you look at the affidavits 22 that we attached in support of our motion you 23 will find these folks mentioned in there as 24 well. So, Your Honor, do -- now you were 25 asking me questions. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 121 1 THE COURT: No, you answered, you got 2 right to the meat of the matter on that one, 3 because I wondered why you left names out. 4 MR. POPE: He didn't show up on the 5 picket line. 6 THE COURT: I see how you went about 7 this. Okay. And the other two didn't either. 8 Okay. 9 MR. POPE: I also refer Your Honor to 10 the, I don't know how many police reports, we 11 have got at least four attached there to our 12 motion that identify various people involved. 13 So, there is quite a bit of information. I 14 haven't belabored, we put in our appendix but 15 there is awful lot of information in there. 16 THE COURT: Okay. All right. I'll look 17 at this. Now, Mr. Pope -- 18 Am I going to get me another telephone? 19 If you promise me you'll go outside and talk or 20 turn it off. Okay. Thank you. Last time we 21 collected quite a few telephones. We give them 22 back after the hearing. 23 All right. Mr. Pope, now you want to 24 add those names as defendants, you're not 25 asking me to enjoin them now? ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 122 1 MR. POPE: Well, I think I -- I believe 2 I made a showing that they are in active 3 concert and participation and should be bound 4 by the terms of the injunction. Remember the 5 term injunction basically just sets out some 6 guidelines about stay this far away from 7 Scientology property, et cetera. Plus I'm 8 asking you to adopt the police department's 9 white line designation on Waterson and binding 10 the group to adhere to that. And they have 11 been doing that, Your Honor. They have been 12 doing that. But listen to this, they didn't 13 start doing it until we filed this motion. 14 Their behavior has been an awful lot better 15 after the motion was filed on the 21st of 16 January. 17 The bottom line, Judge, if you want 18 control over this situation you're going to 19 have to include these folks in there. And I 20 think maybe the folks can get along for a while 21 until somebody figures out a way to make end 22 run around it. 23 Does the Court wish for anything else 24 from me? 25 THE COURT: I'm wondering, I hate to ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 123 1 make you stand there while I see all sort of 2 possibilities, but there is no way I'm not 3 going to, I'm not going to come up with a 4 perfect OSA safety net. 5 MR. POPE: And you know, Your Honor, we 6 know you can't and you shouldn't even try. You 7 should actually confine yourself to the 8 question, should I grant the relief asked in 9 the motion in whole or in part or not at all. 10 THE COURT: I'll tell you and 11 Mr. DeVlaming, the only thing that concerns me 12 that would make me even try is I see the videos 13 again and those faces were right up against the 14 camera. And that is what I'm trying to prevent 15 the last time around. I don't know if that was 16 done with a zoom lense that brought that face 17 up against the camera and that, I don't know. 18 But I just do not, and I want on the record, I 19 don't like them face to face, that is all I 20 worry about. 21 MR. POPE: Well, Your Honor, the zoom 22 lense is responsible for part of that, and I 23 don't know if you remember this, but in several 24 instances Mr. Minton's friends approached the 25 camera. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 124 1 THE COURT: I saw that. I saw that. 2 MR. POPE: You're going to find that the 3 folks, this man, the one man that did the 4 videos, this is really outside the record, but 5 I will represent to you that this man stood 6 right on, right there next to the building and 7 made the video. He didn't go chasing people 8 around. He used a zoom lense and they walked 9 up to him. He wasn't like the original 10 defendant was, Howd and Minton was, the 11 original parties. 12 THE COURT: I couldn't tell who was 13 walking in whose shoes in that one. 14 All right. You think the buffer zone is 15 okay footage? 16 MR. POPE: You mean ten feet? 17 THE COURT: Yeah, my initial order. 18 MR. POPE: Let me put it this way, 19 Judge, we did not ask that it be enlarged, and 20 I haven't, it is just not anything that we ask 21 you to do. We're concerned about other 22 matters. We can live with that we believe. 23 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to do 24 this. Now, there is now -- I'm not going to 25 give them rebuttal, but I asked the policeman, ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 125 1 I asked Captain Jones what would you do if you 2 were judge and he gave it an honest try. And 3 I've asked you all. But Ms. Rivellini, what 4 would you do if you were judge? No coaching 5 from the end of the table, come up here. 6 Represent your client. What should I do 7 here? 8 MS. RIVELLINI: Well, Judge as far as 9 the adding names I think when Mr. Pope tells 10 you, you know, today to just add them to the 11 injunction as it stands now or come back later 12 at another time individually as it comes up, I 13 think he is jumping the gun, because if he were 14 to not win here today and come back next week 15 on an individual basis on each of the names he 16 is requesting, the ten names, I don't think he 17 is going to have anything to show you, and I 18 think that is why he did it this way. It 19 looked like there were existing problem, and it 20 was easy, I think Mr. Howie mentioned it was 21 easy quick way to do it, it makes it sound 22 right, but it is not right. Because the rights 23 you're taking away from those ten people are as 24 important as the nine hours that we heard of 25 Mr. Minton's rights, so it is easier and it is ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 126 1 quicker but it is not the right thing to do. 2 You haven't heard enough about any of those ten 3 people to preclude them from exercising their 4 first amendment rights. 5 They do want to expose Scientology for 6 what they feel it is and they have a right to 7 do that. They have a right to move to 8 Clearwater just like the Scientologists feel 9 that they did. And they moved here and made it 10 their effort, but just because they all have 11 that goal does not mean that they're acting in 12 concert to cause harm to anybody in a way that 13 precluded them from exercising their rights. 14 So I think you have to look at it individually 15 and as seriously as we spent the nine hours 16 looking at Mr. Minton's rights, because all you 17 heard is that they established a setting for 18 them to work and make phone calls and have a 19 safe haven for the people that feel they want 20 to leave Scientology and that is it. 21 And it is really no different if 22 Mr. Minton worked in a bank. If he worked in 23 the bank and didn't like Scientology I imagine 24 that all the tellers wouldn't have to stay ten 25 feet away or all the people that count the ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 127 1 money or work behind the desk. Just because 2 they're employees of Mr. Minton or people 3 acting along with Mr. Minton who may also not 4 like Scientology their rights to walk in 5 Clearwater shouldn't be enjoined anymore than 6 mine should because I'm his attorney, or the 7 police officers who are working privately paid 8 by Scientology to stand out there. 9 THE COURT: See. That is one thing that 10 concerns me though, is I hear the police 11 officers crying for help. 12 MS. RIVELLINI: You have to look at 13 actions. If you take the injunction as it is 14 read and what case law makes you to do the 15 logical end it becomes absurd. It keeps me 16 from walking the streets and those policeman 17 who are recording the logs when they're being 18 paid by the Scientologists, they're agents of 19 them. 20 THE COURT: The other thing that bothers 21 me, we all pay taxes. When we tie up a 22 fraction of the Clearwater police force doing 23 nothing but going out and checking, nah, nah, 24 nah, reports, what are we gonna do? I mean, 25 this is becoming time consuming, and it is ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 128 1 cutting both ways. 2 MS. RIVELLINI: But look who is making 3 the phone calls. You're getting repeated phone 4 calls calling Clearwater Police officers out 5 when no alleged crime has occurred, not even an 6 instance that rises to the occasion of a 7 violation of the existing injunction. 8 THE COURT: I know, that's what worries 9 me, because the police have to go out and find 10 out it is nothing. 11 MS. RIVELLINI: Perhaps the blame should 12 lie somewhere else other than with Mr. Minton 13 and his people to enjoin them from exercising 14 their rights because the Scientologists don't 15 like them walking through Clearwater -- 16 THE COURT: But then the Scientologists 17 hire off-duty policeman to try to show some 18 sort of community spirit by giving them after 19 hour income to try to hold this down, and then 20 they get accused of being in concert with the 21 local police. And that is not good for the 22 reputation of the police force. I mean this 23 whole thing, I'm deeply concerned that no 24 matter what we do, even if we try to narrow it 25 down to nothing could happen on land one side ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 129 1 or the other would claim that the Goodyear 2 blimp with a rolling message was too close to 3 earth. 4 What am I going to do, Kim? 5 MS. RIVELLINI: Judge, if you're asking 6 how to make the Scientologists and Mr. Minton 7 to get along there is no answer. 8 THE COURT: Thank you, that is like the 9 divorce judge downstairs, there is no answer. 10 How do you handle that? 11 MS. RIVELLINI: Correct, but if you look 12 at the off-duty police officers working for 13 Scientologists, ask them what crimes they've 14 seen being committed. There are none. Ask 15 them what violations committed. There are 16 none. If they want to pay them twenty dollars 17 an hour overtime to stand out there and look at 18 a white line let them do that. And let 19 Mr. Minton and whoever is with him have the 20 opinion that they're being paid by them, that 21 is fine. Everybody is entitled to the opinion. 22 But there has been no harm in that. 23 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. 24 Mr. Pope would like that the names of eight 25 individuals, he conceded the two out, be added ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 130 1 as defendants, just defendants not enjoined or 2 anything. 3 MS. RIVELLINI: I ask him based upon 4 what? What did he show you here today to allow 5 for that? What unlawful conduct, what basis? 6 THE COURT: Other than the films which 7 he said showed Grady Ward was seen with a sign 8 in his hand. Now Patricia Greenway, Peter 9 Alexander, who were seen with Jessie Prince and 10 Mark Bunker near the Clearwater Bank delivery 11 phone, now there is that. 12 MS. RIVELLINI: How about Jessie 13 Prince's video, the three minute video we 14 watched. Take a look at that and ask yourself 15 what you're really seeing. Yes, you're seeing 16 Jessie expressing his opinion about 17 Scientology, but ask yourself where you're 18 seeing it. You're seeing it on the side of 19 street, that not just Jessie can come and go 20 from, but what Mr. Minton is precluded from 21 leaving, so you're looking at Jessie Prince on 22 the side of the street that is under the 23 strictest terms of your injunction, he is 24 supposed to remain -- and he is having a 25 conversation with two Clearwater officers who ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 131 1 comes within twenty feet of him to make this 2 film that you're seeing. So what actions are 3 you seeing by Jessie? Absolutely none. He 4 wanted your injunction to be strict. You're 5 seeing Scientologists violate. You didn't see 6 Jessie run and make a complaint. 7 THE COURT: Well I must admit I'm asking 8 myself when they're being photographed who is 9 taking the photographs and when it is the in 10 your face thing who got close to who first. 11 MS. RIVELLINI: What I can tell you, 12 Judge, is this. Mr. Minton and those of us 13 representing him don't believe you need to add 14 the white lines into the recesses of your 15 injunction, and for reasons of common sense and 16 the case law. But not withstanding that, 17 Mr. Minton and anybody else who wanted to walk 18 down that sidewalk really felt they had a right 19 to walk down there, whether buses were coming 20 or vans were coming or what have you. And the 21 police department said they made phone calls to 22 us. We talked to Rob Surrett, we had a 23 meetings with Mr. Surrett and Mr. Kline and we 24 were told, look, it is going to keep the peace 25 for right now. And we went back and told ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 132 1 Mr. Minton, please don't cross the white lines. 2 We don't think legally you should be kept from 3 doing so, but they have asked you not to right 4 now and we want to keep peace here. And you 5 haven't heard one instance of where they've 6 done that. 7 I think the two parties are getting 8 along better than it looks like they are, but I 9 think the Scientologists want to edge the 10 position closer and closer to keeping them out 11 and this is one way to do that. But as far as 12 what is going on between them there isn't a 13 whole lot, not since your original injunction 14 which I think should stay as it is, and I think 15 they're using this as little bit of leverage. 16 Both sides really are staying away from the 17 picket chicken that you had the chance to do 18 away with in this town. And both sides really 19 have conceded, whether they felt they had to or 20 not for the good of the community, and I think 21 that is the direction it is going. I hope that 22 is the case. 23 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Your 24 client is very close to the bank, in other 25 words, they're literally as an old southerner ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 133 1 would say, they're in spitting distance, okay. 2 Where do you all park? Where does your 3 client park? Where is -- there is a loading 4 zone for the Church of Scientology people, they 5 get in and get out and they go. And there is 6 this sidewalk thing on the east side of 7 Waterson. I'm just curious as to where do you 8 all park? Do you have a loading zone or 9 anything? 10 MS. RIVELLINI: No, Judge, I can't 11 speak -- 12 THE COURT: I saw where the police 13 officer's car parked, parked in this area. And 14 I see there are parking spaces there and 15 parking spaces go on up the street from where 16 the northern white line is up in here. And I 17 just wonder has that been pretty peaceful up 18 that way? 19 MS. RIVELLINI: My understanding is, 20 yes, on that side of the road close to the 21 Minton building. I don't know if that's where 22 they park. I know we have gone down the one 23 way streets and parked at the other end. I 24 don't know if there is any traffic problems 25 with the buses, but what you haven't heard ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 134 1 here, and frankly is not part of the evidence 2 in front of you, how we got down to the one 3 loading zone. 4 The Scientologist wanted all Waterson 5 Avenue restricted for themselves. And when I 6 tell you that both sides have cooperated, it's 7 after the attorneys had gone back and forth 8 with the Scientologists and then with us to 9 narrow it down to the white lines where the 10 buses are. They originally wanted everybody 11 precluded from Waterson, or at least Mr. 12 Minton's people. And then we said, well, go 13 ahead and have people while you're unloading so 14 they had ten buses at all times. 15 THE COURT: You want me to do away with 16 the white lines after all that hard work? 17 MS. RIVELLINI: We don't think you need 18 to incorporate those white lanes for case law 19 reasons, and I think the biggest analysis is 20 with the abortion issue. 21 THE COURT: What? 22 MS. RIVELLINI: I think the biggest 23 analogy why the buffer zone is needed as part 24 of this injunction is the abortion issue. 25 THE COURT: Oh, you're arguing a line of ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 135 1 cases. 2 MS. RIVELLINI: Right, I'm saying for 3 case law -- 4 THE COURT: I thought you were 5 interjecting something here I hadn't heard. Go 6 ahead. 7 MS. RIVELLINI: No, I think you don't 8 need to enforce those white lines, and I think 9 it is not substantiated in the law as to why 10 you should allow for that buffer zone. And the 11 line of case law I'm familiar with, and of 12 course Mr. Howie is more the expert in that 13 field. In the abortion cases -- 14 THE COURT: Yeah, we went through those 15 in the last hearing, all the cases you cited on 16 the zones and everything else. 17 MS. RIVELLINI: Correct, so the reason 18 for that buffer zone being allowed as wide as 19 it was, because in the case of the abortions 20 the woman had a right to go in and the right to 21 have the procedure done. And by having people 22 yell at them as they're entering and exiting 23 they're getting upset, there were physical 24 ramifications and it interrupted the surgery, 25 and that is why they allowed for those. ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 136 1 Now compare that to what we have here. 2 We have people going to eat. Why should they 3 have an extra protection by Your Honor on there 4 way to the restaurant. What gives 5 Scientologists the right to travel all through 6 Clearwater to go where they feel where they 7 want to go to dine. They don't need special 8 protection for that. And if Mr. Minton and his 9 group want to peacefully and lawfully picket, 10 if you want to call it that, from their side of 11 the sidewalk more than ten feet away from the 12 buildings, why should they be precluded from 13 that because they want to dine at the 14 particular area. You don't have to enforce the 15 white lines. And we ask that you not challenge 16 what the police have done. 17 And in fact, the press had been 18 interested in challenging that and that will be 19 their fight, because they're restricted by the 20 wide restrictions in that street. 21 THE COURT: I hadn't heard that. You 22 mean the press can't go in there? 23 MS. RIVELLINI: Nobody can go in the 24 white lines, so that is the challenge 25 between -- ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 137 1 THE COURT: If I were, if I were 2 walking, if I were at the Clearwater 3 Courthouse and I wanted to go to Jimmy Hall, I 4 haven't been there in so long, you know, my 5 curiosity is up. I want to go see Jimmy, I 6 couldn't walk that way? 7 MS. RIVELLINI: Not while the 8 Scientologists are on the way to dinner or 9 lunch. But the police have put in something 10 that right now both sides are abiding too, and 11 it will be challenged for what authority those 12 lines are put there and the appropriateness of 13 them. Frankly I think they're over broad. I 14 don't see why we have to restrict a sidewalk on 15 the other side of the street away from those 16 buses. There is no security problem. There is 17 no danger. But that is what the police have 18 chosen to do. It is what is working now. 19 There is no need for Your Honor to expand the 20 rights or expand the injunction and enjoin the 21 rights of Mr. Minton or anybody that perhaps is 22 walking with him that day. There is no 23 foundation for it. It doesn't accomplish 24 anything except it allows the Scientologists 25 right to shut down Mr. Minton's people. They ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 138 1 don't want to see the signs. They don't want 2 to hear his message. They don't want to see a 3 phone number allowing for safe haven. 4 THE COURT: They can still see those 5 signs if he is standing at the edge of the 6 white lines. 7 MS. RIVELLINI: That is what Mr. Minton 8 has had to deal with. But they're edging 9 closer and closer and closer, that is their 10 goal. That is their goal. And adding ten 11 names or eight names, adding white lines, their 12 goal is to get a closer edge even when there is 13 no problem. 14 There has been nothing of danger. There 15 have been none of this picket chicken that 16 you've heard of. And they're using this court 17 to try to run Mr. Minton and anybody associated 18 with him out of town, and this is not the 19 spirit of the injunction, it was to keep safety 20 issue at hand, and it worked. 21 I agree that the Clearwater Police have 22 a hard job to do, but we respect what they do 23 and if they thought there was a dangerous 24 situation out there they would get down to the 25 bottom of it. And if it was a close call as to ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 139 1 whether someone proposing a dangerous situation 2 was an agent I guarantee you they would 3 probably be agent that day. But the reason 4 they haven't made the call, because nothing has 5 been happening. Frankly, I think you have done 6 all you can do to make Clearwater safer now. 7 It worked. 8 THE COURT: All right. Let me take all 9 this and go digest it. Look at the films 10 again. And I'll not, let this record be clear, 11 I'm not delaying to keep anyone in suspense. 12 I'm delaying so I do what I think is right. 13 1:30 Wednesday. Thank you very much. 14 MR. POPE: Can I hand you the law I 15 have, the article? 16 THE COURT: Would you please give them a 17 copy. 18 MR. POPE: I did. 19 THE COURT: I trust you. Thank you, 20 Sir. 21 (THEREUPON THE PROCEEDINGS WERE CONCLUDED.) 22 23 24 25 ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES 140 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, DEBORAH M. WILLIAMS, Court Reporter, Notary Public, State of Florida at Large: 5 6 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the time and 7 place set forth in the caption thereof; the proceedings were stenographically reported by me in 8 shorthand, and the foregoing pages, numbered 1 through 140, inclusive, constitute a true and correct 9 transcript of my said stenographic report. 10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative 11 or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the parties hereto, nor a relative or employee of such 12 attorney or counsel, nor do I have any interest in the outcome or events of this action. 13 14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto affixed my official signature this _____ day of February, 15 2000, at Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida. 16 _______________________________ DEBORAH M. WILLIAMS 17 Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit 18 Notary Public, State of Florida 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES