Lisa McPherson Files - Interview with Dr. George Podgorny
Medical expert
From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa
McPherson's death:
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FL0520300/Clearwater Police Department Report No. 95-29158
Offense Death Investigation Date of Report 11/11/97
Location 644 Pierce Street Orig Incident Date 12/6/95
Victim B Lisa McPherson VI Prosecute Yes No
Investigator Det. Sgt. Wayne Andrews
Previous Status Active
Subject None
Impound Inventory None
Okay. Today's date is 11/11/97. The hour is 1412 hours. We are at Mr...or Dr. B
George Podgorny's...that's P 0 D G 0 R N Y... M.D. We are at his house at X, X
We are here in reference to
the Lisa McPherson case, Clearwater Report #95-29158.
Sgt. Andrews: Dr. Podgorny, we came up today to talk to you basically to receive
some information from you and some of your expert opinion on the
Lisa McPherson case. And I think...at the present time Special
Agent Lee Strope is also present in the room and he will begin the
questioning.
Dr. Podgorny: Fine.
Agent Strope: First, why don't you tell us what documents you have.
Dr. Podgorny: The documents that I have received from Mr. Dandar include
autopsy report... .clinical records from the New Port Richey
Hospital, where this lady was taken in extremist and was
pronounced dead.. .medical records from Morton.. .is that the name
of the hospital?
Agent Strope: Morton Plant.
Dr. Podgorny: Morton Plant Hospital, where she was taken prior to having care by
Scientology group at their facility. I have the autopsy report by the
Medical Examiner. I have reports of the caretakers. I have a
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deposition of Barbara Schmidt... and have a brief partial computer
generated list of prescriptions from Eckerd Drugs in Clearwater,
Florida.
Agent Strope: Okay. So these were.. .these were all sent to you by Attorney
Dandar?
Dr. Podgorny: From Mr. Dandar. . .correct.
Agent Strope: And you've had time to go over all of them?
Dr. Podgorny: And had time...yes. Some of them have been in my possession
for sometime.
Agent Strope: Okay. Have...have you testified in the state of Florida before?
Dr. Podgorny: I have.
Agent Strope: And where was that at?
Dr. Podgorny: Are you speaking in a case of like this or...
Agent Strope: Yes.
Dr. Podgorny: Like a criminal...
Agent Strope: Criminal case or civil case.. .right.
Dr. Podgorny: Well, I have testified in several cases that are commonly called
malpractice...civil cases. I have testified in Miami...testified in
Melbourne, Florida... and testified in Orlando... also in Jacksonville,
Florida. I have testified in one criminal case. I'm afraid can't give
you the name. It was several years ago. Jurisdiction was the
Broward County. I testified for the State's Attorney, who think
his last name was Sacks or something like that. And that would
involve the case where a woman was burned criminally and issues
related to her burns.. her situation... and whether she had
reasonable ability prior to death to relate to law enforcement
officers as to who was the assailant.
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Agent Strope: Did you.. .did you testify other than... places other than Florida?
Do you testify in this area.. .in North Carolina?
Dr. Podgorny: I do.
Agent Strope: Do you work with the North Carolina police?
Dr. Podgorny: I'm a Medical Examiner here in Forsythe County.
Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
Dr. Podgorny: And I'm a State Medical Examiner and I have testified widely in
North Carolina.
Agent Strope: Okay. So based on your experience and based on the information
supplied to you concerning Lisa McPherson, are you able to make
a determination as far as you're concerned what could have been
done or what should have been differently in this case?
Dr. Podgorny: That is correct.
Agent Strope: Why...why don't you...I'm...I'm somewhat unfamiliar with...with
your field of expertise. So why don't you go ahead and tell us
based on some of these documents...we can start anywhere you
want to start...what you feel as far as this case is concerned...what
your opinion is.
Dr. Podgorny: Okay.
Agent Strope: I know that's a pretty broad question and that's....
Dr. Podgorny: Okay.
Agent Strope: That's... that's asking a lot, but I'd like you to start from the
beginning and... and from the documents that you've derived.
And...and let us know just what you feel about it.
Sgt. Andrews: Just a suggestion maybe...maybe we can start at the Morton Plant
Hospital since...
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, that's what I...
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Agent Strope: That would be a good idea...
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, that's what I want to do.
Sgt. Andrews: And...and work through her stay at the hotel and maybe just have
you narrate it because it would be easier than us asking specific
questions.
Dr. Podgorny: Let me do that. And then if you have questions, you can then
question...
Agent Strope: That...that way it'd be sequential...yeah... okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Okay. My understanding is that this lady was somewhat mentally
disturbed...had problems...was apparently unclothed around...was
taken to Morton Plant Hospital...was briefly evaluated by a
psychiatric type person, not a psychiatrist, but a discussion on the
phone may have occurred with a psychiatrist. And it is my
impression that the understanding of people who were looking at
her was they felt that she was not psychotic... not dangerous to self
and others... but in fact was having an abhorrent behavior of the
type often described kind of in a lay language "looking for
attention...wanting to make a statement."... something of this
nature. And was felt that if she would be in company of interested
people and possibly with some later outpatient psychiatric care
this can be worked out and arrived at some reasonable decision.
Apparently at that point there were some individuals who said that
they were friends of hers became available and she was released to
them. I of course do not know the details of who the individuals
were or their specific relationship. My understanding is they are
not relatives in any legal or medical sense. My understanding then
is that she was removed to what seems to me some kind of a
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residential facility...whatever it is. I do not know by the building
whether it's a hotel, a motel, an apartment complex. Some setting
here there are obviously rooms and beds and people can sleep
and people can be around them. And for a period of a relatively
long time, she was in this arrangement being cared by a number of
individuals who had something in common in that they worked
and assembled in this facility and at least in part attended to her.
If I may...just to continue briefly as to what I understand generally
happened... then I will return to some greater detail.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: After a period of a couple of weeks or so, she gradually declined in
her health and eventually it was decided by the individuals
attending to her that they are not able anymore to care for her... to
deal with the problems she had...to put it mildly. At this point in
time, she was removed...not by EMS people but by the people who
were caring for her... and was transported to the New Port Richey
Hospital, which...though I do not know the geography of that area
well, my understanding is some distance away from the facility
that she was at and probably quite a distance farther away than a
number of other well-equipped staffed hospitals since that part of
Florida is extremely well populated and a medically rich area. Yet
she was brought in to the New Port Richey Hospital...to put it
mildly... moribund or extremist. There is a suggestion that, at the
time that the physician saw her, he thought maybe she had what's
called medical sepsis, overwhelming infection, or meningitis. There
was an attempt to resuscitate her, which one can either say failed
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but more likely she was not alive and in a position to be
resuscitated at that point in time. So she unfortunately expired. A
Medical Examiner/Coroner type investigation by Florida
authorities was carried out. I have available to me a copy of the
autopsy report. Amongst the major findings, the cause of death is
Pulmonary Embolism, which is a formation of clots...usually occur
in the legs...occasionally in females may occur in pelvic veins.
They travel with the venous circulation to the right side of the
heart...progress to the lungs...block flow of blood to the lungs... and
for a lack of better term, "suffocate" a person internally rather than
what you as police people know more by mechanical suffocation of
the neck. The contributing and a very important element in this
was extreme dehydration...which is a result of inadequate medical
care, inadequate general care, inadequate attention to individual.
And probably both of the items I have mentioned also are greatly
related to the fact that this individual, for long periods of time, was
bedridden...bed bound...kept on her back...therefore keeping to a
minimum her circulation...keeping her away from being in an
upright position, which is very important for us to maintain normal
circulation and prevent venous blood from flowing. She also had
multiple bruises and scratches and abrasions that, having grabbed
the caretaker records, are probably indicative of (A) that there has
been struggling. This struggling could have been initiated by the
patient with her conscious and trying to remove herself from the
area...whether not fully conscious...just a type of a struggle...or
whether as a result of trying to constrain her, to contain her, to
restrain her, to keep her in the room... keep her on the bed...in the
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bed. Also probably some of the findings and bruisings are
probably related to essentially no vitamin.., adequate vitamin food
stuff intake.., something that is necessary to keep up the tissue
integrity ability of the blood to clot and so forth. This kind of a
general overview as to what my understanding is as to what has
occurred. If you want to stop me, fine. If you want me to go on, I'll
give you a little bit more general...
Sgt. Andrews: I think it'd be fine to go on.
Agent Strope: Yeah, I...
Sgt. Andrews: Any questions at the end...
Agent Strope: I'll have some questions at the end. But if you want to go on and
then if I have any questions, rather than interrupt you Vll write
them down.
Dr. Podgorny: Good. In regards to...just so that you have a good view of my ideas
so that you won't be wondering later on... I just wanted to put to
rest the issue at the Morton Plant Hospital. I don't think any
major problems occurred there. I personally feel.. speaking purely
as a physician.. .that when I see a female who is running around
naked, I feel she has serious problems. In our society in America,
in Florida... regardless of your good and fine weather and so
forth...I think when that happens...whether she's looking for
attention or not... I think there are some problems. And my
personal judgement at the time would've been to put her in a
psychiatric channel of care whether than say "Okay, you can go
home...don't do it again... and you call Monday and talk to me".
But nevertheless, having said that, I think overall I see no problem
for the people at that hospital. They may not given it as much
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thought at the time and were just impressed that.. .you know "This
young girl is just bothering us.. .we're so busy with all the other
people and she's running around naked and wasting our
time"...type of a situation. To jump a little bit in regards to the
Port Richey Hospital, I think the medical care rendered
perse...whatever it was...I think was not material to the issues.
They were caring essentially for a dead person. And I see nothing
wrong that they attempted the resuscitation. You can never go
wrong by trying to revive a dead person. You can go wrong by not
reviving a potentially dead person. My concern is... again as a
physician looking at it at the point is (1) there is really no evidence
whatsoever, clinically or otherwise, that she had an infection. And
certainly the autopsy bears this out. But trying to be objective
about it prospectively...as she is there being taken care of and she
is essentially or virtually dead, I think this whole issue of looking
for infection...to me looks disingenuous. And possibly.. .though as
you know I'm .not a trained law enforcement officer...that there is a
potential for trying to obfuscate something or trying to cover up
something else by virtually saying "Well, maybe this one..."
because it's clear when you look at this woman that she's not
cared for based on the material and evidence that I have in hand.
So that is one concern I have. And that is something only people
like you can investigate and come to some conclusion. I could be
helpful once more information is obtained. And I think the second
element, which may be more difficult because it will entail looking
at interaction of people there...what...it's my understanding...and
your correct me if I'm wrong in regards to logistics...that her
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caretakers called the doctor at New Port Richey and said "We have
this lady here who is very sick and she needs to be seen by a
doctor and have medical care." And apparently he says "Bring her
over and I'll...you know...I'll do what I can." I do not know what
they reported to him in the way of medical information becaUse it
seems to me...even to a lay person...if they would've reported to
him what she looked like, it would've been appropriate for him to
say "She is very sick, you take her to the nearest hospital...if they
will stabilize her and you later have interest in being at this
hospital, we can arrange an inter-hospital transfer." But...you
know...common sense is common sense. If you are very sick, you
go to the nearest hospital. And this is what the police does when
they are involved... EMS...Fire Department...they always go to the
nearest hospital to stabilize. Once the situation is stable, doctors
can make all kinds of arrangements. They can move her from a
hospital to a hospital. They can send her to another city. They
can send her to one of your medical schools and so forth. So that's
the second area of my medical concern as to what transpired
during that contact. And of course I have to have an open mind
and the possibilities are from one extreme...they trying to protect
themselves told the doctor "No, she doesn't feel good." He said
"Okay, if she doesn't feel good...we're some distance from you but
no big deal...I'll be glad to see her and help you." On the other
hand, if in fact he knew as to what...what is explained to him to be
her condition... I wonder if again there is something here... some
complicity in trying to take her where he is instead of taking her to
where the best and the most experienced medical care can be
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arranged. I'm also concerned that, in this day and time, of all the
places in Florida, which is one of our largest states with an
excellent EMS...and I'm particularly well familiar with EMS in
Tampa and that Bay area...why he didn't call 911...which
is...that's why he's there. And why they did not avail themselves of
immediate literally minutes availability of trained paramedics who
can establish radio contact with any number of doctors or
hospitals or who can then mobilize the helicopter...whatever you
need to care for her. So those are some of the issues that relate in
that regard. Going now back to the care that she received in
this...whatever you call his facility that she was in...one general
statement I want to make that I have a feeling that people like you
will well Understand...as I read it, I feel like I'm in a 19th Century
western frontier like in the movies. And the person is sick and
nobody knows what to do. And there is no knowledge
available...no science available. There are no doctors...no
nurses...no medical care. And what happened in 19th Century,
some poor woman would be in charge of taking care of the sick.
She knew nothing about nothing...was a nice woman but knew
nothing. And basically what she could do... tried to get you to
drink a little water... tried to give you a few teaspoons full of
soup...tried to put a cold sweat rag on you. That is the feeling...the
feeling I get. I think if you are going to relate this to other people
in law enforcement, this is what it sounds to me. If this wasn't a
real case and you were not here, I would say somebody is trying to
write a little story about life on the frontier of 19th Century and not
life in Clearwater, Florida in the 1990's. This is incomprehensible
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to me as a physician. And I think if you even let an average lay
person who is not medically trained look at it, it would be difficult
for them to understand that this can occur. And to me this is
grossly negligent. And I'm...not being legally trained...I do not
know what to call this. But to me as a doctor, this is criminal.
Now if this occurred in New Guinea, I don't know about it.
Probably even there it would be hard to imagine. But this
occurring where I live or in Clearwater, I will say this is criminal.
You just cannot...cannot do this. And it's not something that
happened over a period of an hour or two or a day or a night or two
days or two nights. And there are days and days of those notes.
Obviously those notes are not very precise. But there is sufficient
information in it to see that (A) people who are caring for her do
not know what they are doing. But they know enough to know
that...to put it in North Carolina language "She ain't doing good."
She is not doing well and she is getting worse and worse. They are
pushing a number of things on her...vitamins. And in that setting
without nutrition, those vitamins are of no particular value. They
are giving her a number of medications. They are all depressive
and tend to lower her blood pressure...tend to lower her mental
capacity...her thinking: They tend to lower her demand for food.
They...they are just not appropriate in her situation that she's in.
It is my understanding...but I may need to have more
information...that Chloral-Hydrate and Valium were prescribed by
a medical practitioner who has not seen this patient in a living
status...which certainly North Carolina being appropriate medically
and possibly will be some problem with some statutes in North
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Carolina and I can not speak for Florida. And certainly
inappropriate like drugs like both Valium and Chloral-Hydrate is
not something that...you know...if you call me and ask me to
prescribe them to you, I won't. Unless you are my patient...unless
I see you...unless I evaluate you...and unless I arrive at a
professional judgement that you need Valium and Chloral-Hydrate
and why you need those and why you need both of them at the
same time. Since they have...I don't know if you're familiar with
the medical term "synergism"...they work together and they
reinforce each other. And the result is 2 and 2 equal five. The
combination is more than each part because they are that kind of
drugs. So usually we do not use them together. She was also
receiving Tincture Of Valarian. You're probably not familiar with it
because in this country we don't use it anymore. It's not
particularly harmful. It comes from a plant called Valarian...little
flowers. It's used in Germany and in Europe. It's a mild
sedative...probably by itself of no...no concern. It does not require
a prescription because it's not an official drug approved by the
Federal Drug Administration. It's not in any medical books if you
look for it. You have to look in homeopathic medical books. So
this is something that I don't think was prescribed by a doctor that
I know of. Whether they use it routinely, I do not know. But the
combination of Valarian, which is depressing and it's used mostly
in Europe for nervousness...you know...it's very common in offices
in Europe. People will have some...your boss chews out...you take
a little Valarian to calm down...maybe something like smoking a
cigarette here... that situation. But you're combining that
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Chloral-Hydrate and Valium in an individual who's
dehydrated...not nourished well. There's already a lot of bed rest.
That is a very bad combination of things medically speaking. It is
my understanding... and I believe I have this understanding from
Mr. Dandar...that in this period of confinement or period of
whatever she was... that amongst the caretakers, there was "a
physician" who was not licensed in Florida but who apparently was
a trained medical person... a physician. I of course do not have any
data...do not know who the physician is... have not seen
qualifications of the physician. It seems to me any physician
trained in the United States...and I'll be glad eventually to tell you
if you question me how I know this...if it's a physician trained in
the United States or Canada, he or she should not have failed to
notice that this woman needs serious medical care and may not be
taken care of by a bunch of...you know...lay people sitting
somewhere and feeding her crushed bananas if that's the case.
But I do not know if in fact one of them was a physician and
whether that physician...I don't know...may have been trained in
some other medical school that I do not know. But if that
physician is trained in America, in Canada, or Puerto
Rico...because I have specific understanding of the training in
those countries... could not fail to understand medically that
everything that is being done is wrong and the outcome essentially
can be only one and that's death. Let me stop now. You have a
better understanding of what I know.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And why don't you now interrogate me.
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Agent Strope: Well, I...the only...the thing that's freshest in my mind...you said
you...you would be willing to say why a physician trained in this
country...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: Should know...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: That this girl had a problem. Is there specific training that you're
talking about or...?
Dr. Podgorny: Two things. One, I'm intimately familiar with the training because
I'm on the faculty of two medical schools and I just finished serving
on the Accreditation Council on Graduate Medical Education. And
prior to that, I was Chairman of Residency Review Committee. I'm
intimately familiar with medical training involving United States,
Puerto Rico, and Canada...that have a uniform same type of a
training...what the training is...what are the steps and so forth.
And therefore, it is my professional opinion that someone who has
successfully completed training in one of roughly 150 medical
schools of these three jurisdictions was imminently qualified to be
able to recognize that this woman was sick by then. I'm putting
aside what transpired at Morton Plant Hospital. That this woman
is psychotic at the minimum...is probably schizophrenic...that she
has such a serious psychiatric problem that she will require
psychiatric hospitalization in a qualified organized state-approved
psychiatric facility of state approved medical facility. And since
she is unable, unwilling, or whatever the reason, to receive
appropriate nourishment, she had a significant medical problem
that requires significant medical care to be provided in recognized
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approved medical facility, which is a hospital that cares for such
kind of problems. So she had two reasons to be hospitalized.
Agent Strope: Now...now these guidelines...are they guidelines that were recently
instituted or is that something that goes back...this person that
was a doctor who's caring for her and went to Medical School say
20 years ago...
Dr. Podgorny: Let's say since World War II.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Let's not talk about prior.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: But I think since World War II you will not find a physician
educated in these groUps who will be able to stand up and say
"Well, my medical judgement was that she was okay and we can
put her in here in this apartment and we have this couple of ladies
here... they're nice people"...and they probably are...and I say
"Okay, you take care of this lady...you try to give her a little
chicken soup...you try to give her a piece of banana...we'll give her
a little Tincture of Valarian...here's the Valium...here's
Chloral-Hydrate...here's multiple vitamins." It is incomprehensible
today. A 19th Century situation is different.
Agent Strope: So a doctor...who say would be a... say an Anesthesiologist or
whatever... they would still receive the same training?
Dr. Podgorny: An Anesthesiologist is an emanately qualified physician. They
graduate from Medical School. They have a minimum of three
years post-graduate training. They are specifically trained in
physiology, cardiology, lung disease... every problem that this
woman had...dehydration...
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Agent Strope: So an Anesthesiologist...
Dr. Podgorny: An Anesthesiologist is much more qualified than an
Opthamologist...more than a Dermatologist... emanately qualified
more than maybe just an average family doctor who has his own
office, business or an average Pediatrician who just sees well babies
and so forth. An Anesthesiologist is a critical specialist. And
imminently qualified to understand what's wrong may not make a
specific psychiatric diagnosis. But understand that this is a major
problem that requires hospitalization and certainly physically is in
a position to recognize. And I think one that doesn't
recognize...unless this physician is mentally incapable, I think it
kinda borders on criminal negligence.
Agent Strope: Do you...do you see a succession here from...from...from...from a
mental disability through the lack of care...through the decline in
the medical condition...to get where this person was?
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Agent Strope: And where would that have started? Where was the point where
somebody should have said it's getting bad...things are getting
worse?
Dr. Podgorny: I'll say four or five days max.
Agent Strope: And...and do you think that this...this problem...
Dr. Podgorny: No, it's okay for a day.
Agent Strope: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: I think most anyone would say...you know...for a day, short of a
real bad disease, you're not gonna die. And so you say a day went
by...maybe not much worse...we'll give it another day. Usually
after 72 hours, if you're not improving something is wrong. So I'm
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being fair saying five days. You know...if in five days you are not
better from something, you better do something about it.
Agent Strope: So you're saying...you're saying that...that this dehydration and
this...this...this...these latter stages would have had to been an
evolution? I mean it didn't start...
Dr. Podgorny: Oh yes, it did not occur in one day and probably it started
occurring after four or five days. You can do without water for two
days. You know that probably from military and other type
training you have. You can do without water for two days. Three
days is pretty bad. And then it gets real bad. And you can do
without food for a week.
Agent Strope: What...what are the early stages...the early...the early symptoms or
early stages of dehydration? How does that show itself?
Dr. Podgorny: Umm...gaunt appearance, dry skin...when you pull it up like that
it doesn't go back quickly...lesser amount of urine, more
constipated bowel movements. Those are the early things. Then
as time goes on, the color gets worse, the skin is real dry, and
persons start developing mental and physical problems. Blood
pressure levels come down...pulse rate goes up.
Agent Strope: But those are all...those are all things you can...you can feel...you
can touch and see.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Agent Strope: Those are all things that a physician should notice.
Dn Podgorny: Yeah...yeah. I can look at somebody and I can look at you and tell
you that you're well-nourished, well dehydrated, and there is
absolutely no problem with you. And I can see somebody else and
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say...you know...this guy hasn't been drinking much for the past
24 hours.
Agent Strope: Is...is it...is it possible for you to say that given...given this mental
instability and given this dehydration and given this... this
regression from relatively good physical health to...to no physical
health...that somewhere along that line there was a point where
this person could no longer make any decisions for herself
regarding her care?
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Agent Strope: And how...where do you think that fit in...given your expertise?
Dr. Podgorny: I think probably...I'll say that...five or six days period. After five or
six days, an individual develops a number of problems...one that
physically doesn't have the vigor and the ability to exert one's
physically. And it's very important to be able to exert one's
physically to also be able to exert one's self mentally. Second, her
mentation was suffering because she had psychiatric problems
that are un-evaded, un-repaired, un-cared for. Thirdly, something
that you are probably more familiar...is that strange situation of
like when you're in semi-captivity...when you are jailed. There
comes a situation that you're just not interested anymore. You
know how you often arrest somebody whose fighting and shouting
and screaming. The next day, he's very calm. He just says "Well,
what the point of it...I can't get out of here...I can't beat them up...I
can't do anything...I'm helpless."
Agent Strope: So you basically get to the point where you give up?
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Dr. Podgorny: You're gonna give up. Sometimes, as you know, captives
sympathize with their captors... a situation like with hostage
takers.
Agent Strope: The Stockholm Syndrome?
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, Stockholm Syndrome situation. Not necessarily the
full-blown thing but the combination of all things brought
about...are resigned... that's it. "You gonna give me a little
water...I'll drink but I'm not gonna ask you for water." And then
periodically, they send this document "She does get up...she...she
tries to slap them...she tries to push away the hand with
banana...she slaps the cup with water"...something like this. That
kind of a behavior is typical of someone already in a serious
serious problem. These are reflex mechanisms and have very little
to do with the volition of thinking.
Agent Strope: Is..is she...do you think she's able at that time to know that she
needs nutrition...to know that she needs food?
Dr. Podgorny: No.
Agent Strope: That she should take food?
Dr. Podgorny: No, she does not.
Agent Strope: So someone has to make that decision for her, right?
Dr. Podgorny: And also because of all the problems, it's not gonna be easy to just
tell her "Here it is...eat this."
Agent Strope: Is it possible to...for...for her...you know, we believe that early on
there were some attempts to leave and...you know...angry attempts
to leave...attempts to end this whole thing. ls it possible that, as
time went by, she was angry or... or...or was disoriented to the
point where she was angry but instead of directing her...her anger
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at...to the point...get to the point instead of directing her anger at
leaving or trying to get dut, she just was angry.
Dr. Podgorny: Sure.
Agent Strope: You see what...you know what I'm trying to say?
Dr. Podgorny: I know exactly what you're saying.
Agent Strope: That early on it was an attempt to get out. And then as her mind
deteriorated, she was angry but could no longer try to get out?
Dr. Podgorny: We see this happen in hospitals in patients who are...after surgery
or being in ICU...having poor nutrition...not doing well and they
want to leave the hospital. They really don't understand everything
what's going on but they get very angry. They're angry at
everybody. They're not thinking about it. They do want to leave
but they don't know how. So they push people...they do this...they
do that. It's a very common thing.
Agent Strope: So...so it's actually...it's...it's...it's...it's not able to really express
what you want to do but you still have this anger. Is that what
you're saying? Well, how. .how much...how much liquid does it
take to sustain good health water-wise?
Dr. Podgorny: An average adult needs approximately 2,000 cubic centimeters of
water a day. That is approximately four pints. This is to sustain.
This is to cover losses in urine, in bowel movements, in
breathing...you know...when you breathe out. You breathe out
water vapor...you don't see it unless it's very cold. Like in North
Carolina. And you lose a pint a day...when I say a day, I mean 24
hours. You lose a pint in 24 hours of just breathing. You also
sweat...even if you're not aware of it. Right now you are sweating
but the air around your skin quickly picks up the vapor and you're
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not aware. And once you get to Florida, you're aware that you are
sweating because your air is always super-saturated with moisture
there. So you lose through skin, through breathing; through
urine...your major losses. Some in bowel movements, some in
tears, some in mucous, spit. And so you need roughly 2,000 CC's
to remain in some kind of a balance. Now if you're gonna get up
now and walk quickly for two blocks and come back, you're gonna
lose more.
Agent Strope: So...so just...just living and just...like you and I and Wayne are
just existing. You're all building up a deficit at all times.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Agent Strope: Of water.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes, and we have to replace just the deficit, not anything else.
Agent Strope: So...so then...then you get the accelerated heartbeat...
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Agent Strope: You're fighting...not eating or urinating...
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Agent Strope: Not replacing that water.
Dr. Podgorny: Not replacing. You keep losing. And where does the water
come...come...come from? From your tissues. That's where your
skin...you know...gets dried up and pulled in and your roundness
disappears and eyes get sunken in. This is much more graphic in
little babies if you've seen some who've been neglected...how they
look very gaunt because they're dehydrated. Water from tissues is
taken up in order to use it. You do not have anymore reserve.
Agent Strope: Would it...would it be out of the ordinary and given this scenario
for a person to go into this period of time...maybe mentally not
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healthy but medically healthy weighing say 150 lbs. and coming
out of this 17 or 18 days weighing 108 lbs. Is that...is that a
possibility to lose that much weight when you're.;.?
Dr. Podgorny: Oh yes. That's...that's a perfect match. Would you refresh my
memory on how many days she was there?
Agent Strope: About 17 days.
Dr. Podgorny: 17 days. And I don't remember exactly. Those figures are specific
that you told me about the weight?
Agent Strope: Well, those are pretty near...approximate.
Dr. Podgorny: Approximate.
Agent Strope: Approximate.
Dr. Podgorny: What was it...150?
Agent Strope: Approximately 140 to 150 and about 108 lbs. That's all...
Sgt. Andrews: 108 when she was weighed at the Medical Examiner's Office.
Dr. Podgorny: So that's for sure?
Sgt. Andrews: Yes.
Dr. Podgorny: and we think about 140....
Sgt. Andrews: Between 140 to 150 lbs.
Dr. Podgorny: So at least a 30 lb....
Agent Strope: Yeah. In that...in that area...yeah.
Dr. Podgorny: That's about 2 lbs. a day...
Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
Dr. Podgorny: Is an average if you're not getting good nutrition.
Agent Strope: Now would it be possible to lose it all in one day?
Dr. Podgorny: No.
Agent Strope: All in two days?
Dr. Podgorny: Impossible.
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Agent Strope: Three days?
Dr. Podgorny: Impossible.
Sgt. Andrews: How about 12 lbs. in one day?
Dr. Podgorny: Impossible.
Agent Strope: Is it humanly possible to lose 12 lbs. in one day?
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, when a pregnant woman has a baby.
Sgt. Andrews: (LAUGHS) Good...very good...
Agent Strope: Other than that, is it?
Dr. Podgorny: Other than that...
Agent Strope: Is there....
Dr. Podgorny: It's impossible...it's just impossible. And so you're not drinking or
eating anything and you put out 3,000 CC's. That's 6 lbs.
Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
Dr. Podgorny: And you know...you ever done any boxing or been involved in
boxing...in fighting?
Agent Strope: Got in a brawl a couple of limes but...
Dr. Podgorny: You know what those guys do...they take pills before they're
weighed. And so you can take a pill and maybe lose another
pound. And they don't eat...don't drink anything until they're
weighed. Then they go and gorge themselves. But that is just
impossible short of having surgery and removing parts of your
body.
Agent Strope: Now if you as a physician would see someone who lost 30 lbs. in a
period of time and was under the same care of this young lady,
that would alarm you wouldn't it? Would it not?
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely...absolutely. Even half of...half of that much.
Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
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Dr. Podgorny: You know...people pay money to lose weight. And if they lose a
pound a day, they are elated and their doctors are elated.
Agent Strope: What...what...what is the first thing that a...if a person came into a
hospital...you know...an accredited hospital with...with the type of
person...type of maladies that you see here...what...what would
you do...what is the first thing you'd do to treat her?,
Dr. Podgorny: If she arrived toward the end of that situation or in the earlier
stage?
Agent Strope: Well, let's start at the early stages.
Dr. Podgorny: It would be a critical situation. She's take to the Intensive Care
Unit. A central venous line...you know what I.V. is. Instead of
putting it in the arm, it's put through the chest...
Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
Dr. Podgorny: In the vena cava so that you can give a large volume...a large
volume of I.V.'s.
Agent Strope: Now...now excuse me. Are you talking...what time of day...what
time of this series are you talking about...early on or towards the
time she went to HCA...toward the end?
Dr. Podgorny: Well, towards the end, she was essentially dead.
Agent Strope: Okay. So you're talking early on.
Dr. Podgorny: One...not the first or second day.
Agent Strope: Okay. So maybe...
Dr. Podgorny: Let's say five...six.. seven days.
Agent Strope: Okay...okay.
Dr. Podgorny: She already lost probably 10 lbs.
Agent Strope: Okay. I wasn't clear on that.
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah.
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Agent Strope: Okay. Go ahead.
Dr. Podgorny: So you need to give her lots of I.V. fluids...both water and salt
solution. You need to give her extra oxygen. You need to get her
in the Intensive Care Unit. You need to quickly quickly do tests of
her blood cell counts...her electrolyte sodium potassium
chloride...check her liver function...her kidney function...check her
eyes...electrocardiogram...a chest X-Ray to make sure she doesn't
have TB for example. These are the initial things. And then you
have to decide whether it will be possible to start nourishing her
through the mouth...will she be cooperative. And you can feed her
high caloric materials. Or the next step would be to put a tube in
her stomach and inject food...you know...put it through a blender
like babies...inject it through. Sometimes that's not feasible and
we'll have to make a, little opening and put this tube directly to the
stomach and put food in. Then there is such a thing that's called
T&P...total parenteral nutrition...where specialists mix food
materials in a sterile manner and it's given in the I.V. fluids.
Agent Strope: Oh, I see.
Dr. Podgorny: These would be the measures done, and of course need to find out
what's wrong with her and obviously we would've found out that
probably medically nothing real wrong with her but she has
psychiatric problems. We'd have to give her medications for her
psychiatric problems so that she feels better. And I think after a
few days she would've improved and would've gone back to a
ravenous appetite, eating everything.
Agent Strope: We've...we've...we've heard conjecture by the other side...the
defense I should say....that it's possible that this person in this
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minor car accident that happened on November 18th sustained
some type of injury to her leg. And as a result of that injury, all
the subsequent problems that she had were a result of that...
Dr. Podgorny No evidence for it.
Agent Strope: Were a result of that...
Dr. Podgorny: Good excuse.
Agent Strope: Do you see that as a plausible explanation for this?
Dr. Podgorny: No.
Agent Strope: Why not?
Dr. Podgorny: Common things are common. She'd been bedridden and she'd
been dehydrated. Those are much more common causes of such a
problem in a young woman than in a minor car accident being hit
in her leg. How many people do you know who are in a minor car
accident and hit on the leg...how many of them get a blood clot on
the lung?
Agent Strope: I don't know many but do you know of any...are there any of those
cases...mean I don't...
Dr. Podgorny: They're very rare.
Agent Strope: Very rare?
Dr. Podgorny: Very rare.
Agent Strope: I mean I bruise myself all the time. My wife's always banging into
things. She's got bruises on her legs all the time.
Dr. Podgorny: Just look at all the guys who play football and basketball and the
truckers and people the way they work...they get banged up and...
Agent Strope: If you...if you do bruise yourself to the point where you get a lot of
bruising...say in a calf or something...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
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Agent Strope: Now wouldn't you have some pain or blue...some indication there.
that there's a problem?
Dr. Podgorny: There should. But the pathologist found nothing.
Agent Strope: Nothing. Now let's...let's move on to day 15 or day 16 or the day
that maybe she went to the hospital...say 2:00 that afternoon. Can
you describe what could've been done for her then?
Dr. Podgorny: Uh...
Agent Strope: I mean is it possible when someone comes into the Emergency
Room to find these things right away?
Dr. Podgorny: Not right away...not right away. You've got to do first things first.
First you need to resuscitate her. Umm...once in the process of
resuscitation, they may...they measure oxygen tension in the
blood. They would recognize that it's abnormal. Deduction from
that is she may have a heart problem...she may have a lung
problem...she may have a clot in her lungs. Then you do an EKG
and find out in her case that she did not have a heart problem.
And you would've X-Ray'd her lungs and the deduction would've
been that there is no pneumonia, TB...anything like that. At that
point, they would have ascertained seriously that she has a clot
and would have started her on blood thinners. Meanwhile, also
she needs lots of I.V. fluids like we discussed previously. Of
course, at this time she's much worse off because of the
pulmonary embolism.
Agent Strope: Do people generally that show up at Emergency Rooms with that
embolism pass away? Is it something that...?
Dr. Podgorny: Used to. If it's recognized now, we have good treatment. If it's
recognized in a timely fashion and treated. 50,000 Americans die
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year from pulmonary embolisms. And most of those cases are
where it's unrecognized...either because of patient factors...they
just don't seek medical care in a timely fashion...or because the
medical personnel fail to recognize it in a timely fashion. But if it's
recognized in a timely fashion, we have very good ways of treating
the situation. So now we recognize that death is not common
unless an individual is very old...80's or older...or the individual
has a very major surgery and this is a post-operative complication.
Agent Strope: So you...so given her situation and her appearance, if she showed
up at your Emergency Room, what would've been the first thing...
Dr. Podgorny: At that late stage, oxygen, I.V. fluids, cardiogram, chest X-Ray,
oxygen measurement, blood thinner, more I.V. fluids...and hope for
the best.
Agent Strope: Have you...
Sgt. Andrews: I'm gonna turn the tape over at this time.
SIDE TWO OF TAPE
Agent Strope: Have you seen any of the photos?
Dr. Podgorny: I have not.
Agent Strope: I mean they were on the Internet. I thought maybe..
Sgt. Andrews: Just the hands were. We didn't...the rest of them haven't been
able to get out there.
Dr. Podgorny: Well, let me see...
Sgt. Andrews:. Just the hands of her photographs...
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, is this what you're talking about? This is from a magazine.
Sgt. Andrews: Right.
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Agent Strope: I...I don't know if you can actually see...
Dr. Podgorny: Not much, but...
Sgt. Andrews: Now this...let's just look at that real quick.
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: This here that you're seeing here...this modeling here...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: Is...is that what the people would say was septic or this
meningitis...
Dr. Pddgorny: That's what he was trying to say, but this is...those things are
called petechia... they look different.., that's not the same. This is
called, "medical ecchymosis"...those are like bruises.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And I would say this is most consistent...either from having the
wrists tied or the wrists being held down and struggling.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. So they are bruising. Now the doctor making this
determination is Dr. Minkoff, who is an M.D. and a trauma room
physician.
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: So he should not be making that type of an error.
Dr. Podgorny:. Remember I told you about the sepsis incident.
Sgt. Andrews: Right. Well that was...
Dr. Podgorny: I think is...is ingenious but I think that what's in my mind...that
somehow they wanted to cover up something or to give a different
spin to the situation.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. And that brings us to that meningitis septic question. The
physician, Dr. Minkoff in this case, had drawn blood...or they drew
blood. Supposedly we're finding out now from the I.V. entrance
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now. That makes sense. I don't know if it makes sense to me but
we're getting testimony from a nurse who says that the blood was
withdrawn from the I.V. tube "in fact, we had trouble getting
enough of the blood and therefore we did then put it into a
pediatric bottle...okay...for analysis."
Dr. Podgorny: Okay.
Sgt. Andrews: Now the doctor ran that and his reason for this was that he was
saying that he was afraid she had meningitis or this...not
meningococca...
Dr. Podgorny: Meningococcal...
Sgt. Andrews: Meni....meningococcal. And lo and behold, the next day...or the
next day he did receive the lab report saying that she had staph.
And then therefore, this gigantic staph infection set in the last day
and killed her. Your...your professional opinion on that?
Dr. Podgorny: There's probably a contaminant... something from the skin.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: We all have staph on the skin. Just her situation does not look
like a staph infection. And pathologists did not find a staph
infection.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Agent Strope: Can you pick up this staph infection on the skin by puncturing it
with a needle? Say...say I...
Dr. Podgorny: You're not gonna....you're not gonna pick it up but the needle will
pick up...
Agent Strope: That's what I mean...
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, sure...and then it goes into the vial and it goes wild in the
laboratory...a very common thing.
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Sgt. Andrews: Okay. So the theory by Dr. Minkoff originally of this massive staph
infection that set in on the last day of her life, where no one would
have noticed it, is not...okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And that would not cause this.
Sgt. Andrews: And that would not cause that.
Dr. Podgorny: That...that and meningococcal meningitis are neutrally exclusive
conditions. So now you're talking about two separate infectious
processes that are not related. And neither of them I think is
present in this situation.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Agent Strope: I'll take a look...while you're asking some questions...
Sgt. Andrews: Let me...let me...
Agent Strope: I'll look through the caretaker notes and share a couple of
questions I was gonna derive from...
Sgt. Andrews: I wanted to ask you...and...and...and I think Agent Strope is gonna
be looking at that...but when we started to read the caretaker
notes and we were seeing that these caretakers were giving
them...giving Lisa protein shakes and Cal-Mag drinks and...with a
banana in it....what effect would these have on...on her condition
at the time?
Dr. Podgorny: In terms of negative results, it's okay. The problem is you've got to
give somebody a lot in order to replace the nourishment.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: You know...what you usually eat in a day's time.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: You're not gonna pay much attention to it, but you eat a lot of
protein and fat and sugar. Right?
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Agent Strope: Right.
Sgt. Andrews: Yes. I should say a lot of fat and sugar.
Dr. Podgorny: Okay. Now, if you're not gonna eat any of this and your wife wants
to replace it for you and she's gonna make the protein shakes,
she's got to get a lot of it into you because most of the protein
shake is water.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: There's just so much solid you mix into a shake.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: You follow me?
Sgt. Andrews: Yes.
Dr. Podgorny: If you take a shake and dehydrate it, there's only this much stuff.
The rest is water.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: So you need to get a whole lot of it in. And just the fact that...let's
say if she lost 2 lbs. a day, every day she's in a negative balance.
What they're giving her is not even replacing....just enough to take
her stationary.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. So every day she's in a negative balance?
Dr. Podgorny: Every day she's in a negative balance.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Now I find it interesting that you talked about connecting
her dehydrated state and medical condition to her mental
condition. And I picked up...say she...she's having this behavioral
dysfunction when she first goes in there, and she's acting a little
strange and...and looking for some help. And they...they keep her
in this room. Now, I'm understanding that the more she
becomes...the more her electrolytes go off balance, the more her
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diet goes off balance, the more she becomes dehydrated, the more
mentally ill she becomes. Is that correct?
Dr. Podgorny: Exactly...exactly.
Sgt. Andrews: So even though they may have been saying "We just wanted to help
her...we just wanted to keep her safe...we didn't want her running
down the street." The fact of their type of care was contributing to
her mental deficiencies.
Dr. Podgorny: And they should have known that.
Sgt. Andrews: And they should have known that. Now Dr. Johnson...Dr....or
Janis Johnson, the lady taking care of her...my understanding
has...
Dr. Podgorny: Is that... is that the physician?
Sgt. Andrews: Yes. She is...
Dr. Podgorny: We're talking about?
Sgt. Andrews: Yes, that's the one we're talking about., And basically I looked into
a little bit of her background. She was trained here in this
country. She was a practicing Anesthesiologist in a group in
Arizona. And she was specializing there as an Anesthesiologist
M.D. in pain control. Is that...does that sound right...pain control?
Dr. Podgorny: Sounds right.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Now my understanding is that, she had voluntarily given her
license up in Arizona because of a drug problem.
Dr. Podgorny: I see.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay...which I'm...I'm understanding...not to cast bad stones on
Anesthesiologists, but I understand that in the medical profession
there is some problems with drugs and Anesthesiologists because
of the availability of the drugs.
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Dr. Podgorny: Dentists and Anesthesiologists...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Are more likely.
Sgt. Andrews: More likely to have...
Dr. Podgorny: Because they have direct access.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: The rest of have to go through nurses.
Sgt. Andrews: And prescribe it or try to get it...
Dr. Podgorny: Correct.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Now she...that's her...her curriculum...I mean...you
know...and besides...I know there was one school up north but
these are U.S. universities, and this is over the last 20 or 25 years.
Dr. Podgorny: She's very well trained.
Sgt. Andrews: Very well trained. Now our argument has been that this was not
the next-door neighbor. This was...this person taking care of her,
Janis Johnson, was a medical doctor even though the doctor's
certificate is not there. It's just like I'm a policeman now...and if I
retired tomorrow, the next day I'm still a policeman as far as my
training and experience. At what point down the scale of this
1 to 17 days could you make an estimate that this Medical
Anesthesiologist should throw up some alarms and seek help
outside of what she could do?
Dr. Podgorny: Five days.
Sgt. Andrews: Five days.
Dr. Podgorny: To be fair.
Sgt. Andrews: To be fair to her...five days.
Dr. PodgOrny: To her...giving her benefit of the doubt.
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Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Now she was...
Dr. Podgorny: Now one thing I do not know....
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Is this. You brought the question that she is not a neighbor.
Remember you just made comment?
Sgt. Andrews: Yes...yes.
Dr. Podgorny: What I do not know is what was her relationship. Was she putting
aside whether she had license or not...that's a piece of paper...
Sgt. Andrews: Right.
Dr. Podgorny: And we know that she's perfectly well trained medically. But the
question is was she behaving as a physician at the time. Was she
seeing her every day.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Or was she occasionally glancing at her. That I do not know.
Agent Strope: Well, we...we...we believe that she was at least for the most part
seeing her daily although...
Dr. Podgorny: Okay. That makes a lot of...
Sgt. Andrews: If not...if not more than daily...
Agent Strope: Six times a day.
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah. It's like say if you walk out of here you say "Look, I've got a
headache...what do you think?" I'll say "Why don't you take
Motrin."
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Versus you come and see...I see you once a day for five days.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Now very different situation. So if she just...they said "Look, we
have this woman here...what do you think we ought to do?" To say
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"Well, I'll give her some multi-vitamins" is one thing. But then if
she came and in fact she was there with her for pay or not for
pay...providing her...her medical knowledge...
Agent Strope: Yeah, we understand that because iL ..if she hadn't been there to
observe this infection continued...
Dr. Podgorny: Continued...
Agent Strope: If she hadn't observed her, she...it couldn't be fair to say that
she...she dropped the ball.
Dr. Podgorny: Correct.
Agent Strope: Where if she's seeing her every day...
Dr. Podgorny: Correct.
Agent Strope: And we believe more than that. We believe at least two times a
shift, so...
Dr. Podgorny: Because when Mr. Dandar told me about it, he couldn't tell me any
details. And he said "What do you think about a doctor who
was...doesn't have a Florida license?" I said "I don't care whether
there is a Florida license...that's a piece of paper?"
Agent Strope: There's still the training.
Dr. Podgorny: That's...that's just a formality. There's still the training and the
issue is was she there functioning as a physician trained in
medicine. Or..I don't know...she may have been there for
something else.
Agent Strope: But the...the...the paper has nothing to do with her abilities.
Dr. Podgorny: No.
Agent Strope: It just has to do with her licensing.
Dr. Podgorny: No, a license is just a bureaucratic piece of paper that says you
can open shop in Florida.
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Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: Going back to Dr. Minkoff and...remember we talked about...you
talked about this phone call to...to him the night that...the
afternoon or the evening that she's dying on December 5th. It is
our understanding that we have another doctor in the Emergency
Room saying...or indicating to us that he overheard the phone
conversation between Dr. Janis Johnson and Dr. Minkoff, who's
the...the ER doctor. And the statement made by Dr. Minkoff was
"If she is that ill, then take her to Morton Plant Hospital." Okay,
now that's a statement not only by the doctor but another nurse
and other people there...indicating to us as investigators that
apparently Janis Johnson must have been giving him some type of
a...
Dr. Podgorny: Substantial information.
Sgt. Andrews: Substantial information and report about her health for him to say
"If she's that ill..."....to make the quote "If she's that sick, take her
to Morton Plant."
Dr. Podgorny: Is that the nearest hospital?
Sgt. Aridrews: No...yes, Morton Plant is two minutes...three minutes away.
Major...major trauma hospital...you know...gigantic...very big. You
can get anything you need there. Probably if you put somebody in
the car, you could have them from that location in three or four
minutes to the Emergency Room. Now...
Dr. Podgorny: How long is it to...
Sgt. Andrews: 45.
Dr. Podgorny: 45.
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Sgt. Andrews: 45...see...and...and our concerns are that here we have Dr. Minkoff
saying "Take her to Morton Plant Hospital." Yet we have Janis
Johnson driving the 45 minutes to the hospital...not being...
Dr. Podgorny: Where would an EMS take her now if they were....
Sgt. Andrews: Morton Plant Hospital. They would've... the Fire Station and EMS
are about a minute away from her location. And then they
would've loaded her up and taken her to Morton Plant.
Agent Strope: It's not uncommon for them to use ambulances to take you to
Morton Plant Hospital from there.
Dr. Podgorny: It's not uncommon?
Agent Strope: They've done it in several cases.
Sgt. Andrews: The ER...the Emergency Room doctor, Dr. Lovett, indicates he has
treated thousands of Scientologists at Morton Plant Hospital.
Dr. Podgorny: Interesting.
Sgt. Andrews: So...yeah, it's very very interesting. But not normal behavior for a
trauma room doctor to say "Take her...if she's that sick, take her to
Morton Plant" and then accept her anyway.
Dr. Podgorny: Very unusual.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Very unusual. I think it makes it worse for him if that was not
a...if the witness would not have reported that, it seems to me he
could've then said "Well, she just told me she didn't feel good and I
said okay, I'll see her." But in fact he told her on the phone that "If
she's that sick, take her to Morton Plant," I think that's much
worse for him that he eventually...I would absolutely, refuse to
accept it. I'd say "If she's that sick, this minute call paramedics an
call Morton Plant Hospital and start moving."
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Agent Strope: Do...do you think given the...given the condition of her at that
time...that she even had the ability to say "Take me to a hospital".
Dr. Podgorny: No, she didn't.
Agent Strope: You think...you think she'd say "Take me to Dr. Minkoff...he's a
Scientologist...I want to see him."
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely not. No question about it.
Agent Strope: She didn't have the ability to say what she...what...what...
Dr. Podgorny: She had no ability. She probably had no ability for several days
prior to that to make that kind of decision.
Agent Strope: Do you think she was conscious?
Dr. Podgorny: At what point?
Agent Strope: Say the last few days.
Dr. Podgorny: Last few days...she...
Agent Strope: And I...I know you have limited information.
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah. I have the last few hours she wasn't...and the last few days
she was probably disoriented...the best I can put it at...not
unconscious but not able to think.
Agent Strope: So disoriented for the last three days would be the...not the worse
scenario as far as...is it possible she was comatose the last three
days?
Dr. Podgorny: Possible. But the best possible would be disoriented.
Agent Strope: So anywhere from disoriented...
Dr. Podgorny: Because of her dehydration...you know. We know that for...you
know...we have a lot of studies of that particularly because of the
war and prisoners of war and so on. When you're that dehydrated,
if you're not unconscious you're totally, disoriented...you...you can't
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add two and two together...you can't tell me your zip
code...nothing like that.
Sgt. Andrews: We...we find in the caretaker notes on...I think it's around
12/1...which would be she...she was taken on 12/5 to the...
Dr. Podgorny: Five days prior.
Sgt. Andrews: Five days prior that we have Janis Johnson giving her an injection.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Sgt. Andrews: Of MGCL2 I think she had listed it.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes. Mag-Sulfate.
Sgt. Andrews: High M...a high M.
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: Can you tell us about that?
Dr. Podgorny: Can you find it there?
Sgt. Andrews: Yeah, December....
Dr. Podgorny: It'd be helpful if...
Sgt. Andrews: December 1st. It should be way back toward the end. And we have
a report written by Janis Johnson.
Dr. Podgorny: I do not know if I have that or not but I may.
Agent Strope: (LOOKS THROUGH PAPERS)
Sgt. Andrews: Yeah, keep going. What's the next page up? Keep going. I'll
recognize the handwriting right away. Keep going.
Agent Strope: This one here...
Sgt. Andrews: Right here.
Agent Strope: Right there.
Sgt. Andrews: Up at the top.
Agent Strope: It says 2 grams MGCL2 I.M. That's Magnum...Magnesium
Chloride isn't it?
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Dr. Podgorny: Correct...Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: Yeah. This is the doctor, Janis Johnson...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: And she signs it as the medical officer. But I...could you tell us
about this injection? Reasons or what's the...whit's the...what's
the treatment here she's attempting to do.
Dr. Podgorny: Give her Magnesium.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Chloride is a common...well, both elements are present in the body
normally.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Chloride is not a particularly important...putting on a scale of
everything... element. And the only reason it's here...you cannot
give Magnesium by itself...it's like a powder. So you have to have it
in...with a Chloride...a salt...to dissolve it. And the point here is to
give Magnesium. Magnesium is usually given (A) if somebody is
having seizures, or it may be used as a sedative.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And here it says it's given plus two 500 mg. Chloral-Hydrate. You
see...the red is my underlining.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: I assume this was done in order to calm her down. It says
capsule...pierce and as much possible squirt it into her mouth.
Chloral-Hydrate is a gel capsule and has a thick liquid in it. So
you make a hole in it and you can squeeze it.
Agent Strope: Uh Huh.
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Dr. Podgorny: That she swallowed and fell asleep in the middle of sentence. Now,
you cannot...the reason I underlined this...Chloral-Hydrate is not
that strong...that's a lot...two will be 1000 mg. But it will take by
mouth 20 to 40 minutes...you know...anything you take by mouth
can't immediately go to work.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: It has to be...go into stomach...absorbed...start working on the
body. 20 minutes is the earliest.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: You know when...if you drink alcohol, which is more absorbable,
you're not gonna feel it right away...gonna take you a little bit. So
if in fact she immediately went to sleep, it's probably from
Mag-Sulfate...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: That put her to sleep.
Sgt. Andrews: You know...my question on this would be can you render an
opinion by reading this on Lisa's condition on the 1st of December?
She has a respiration rate here of 18 to 24.
Dr. Podgorny: She's agitated.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: She's agitated...probably not fully... she's conscious because she's
not unconscious or they would not be doing this.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: If she was unconscious, it would be redundant to do this.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: So she's conscious but she's so conscious that she is not
cooperative...she is not probably making sense to them. And they
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need to calm her down. And her respirations are commensurate
with being agitated and not having a lung disease.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright. And it says here on the next line "Extremities still cool"...
Dr. Podgorny: Still cool but not cold.
Sgt. Andrews: Right.
Dr. Podgorny: Which it probably means they have been cool for a while.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: That's because of her dehydration and poor circulation.
Agent Strope: Now if...if you read this and you look at all the phraseology and
you look at everything on it, do you think this person was acting as
a civilian or acting as a doctor?
Dr. Podgorny: I would say yes...looking at all of this and signing as a...you know,
I never sign my name M.D. unless I am functioning as a physician.
Sgt. Andrews: Well, she signed this M.O....that's an M.O.
Dr. Podgorny: Oh, M.O.
Sgt. Andrews: M.O....Medical Officer.
Dr. Podgorny: Officer...
Sgt. Andrews: In their...in their...
Dr. Podgorny: In their...
Sgt. Andrews: In their religion.
Dr. Podgorny: I understand. I would take this to be functioning as a
doctor...functioning as a health professional...though I may
disagree with the advisability of mixing this and this...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: I have not used Magnesium Chloride I don't know in how long.
And the only time I used it is a pregnant woman who was having
seizures.
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Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Is this a prescription?
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Sgt. Andrews: So we have to...
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Sgt. Andrews: We have to get that from a doctor too?
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Anything I.M. is a prescription...
Agent Strope: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: By'FDA Regulations. Now...you know...lots of your fellow citizens
receive stuff...
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Without anybody's authority.
Agent Strope: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: But medically you've got to have a prescription.
Agent Strope: The cold extremities will also lower blood pressure...lower blood
pressure?
Dr. Podgorny: Low blood pressure...poor circulation...due to dehydration. You
know...the extremities are farthest from the heart, so they suffer
first. Now you know about frostbite and what happens outdoors to
the tip of the nose...
Agent Strope: Yeah...
Dr. Podgorny: The ears...the chin...the extremities....because it takes longest for
the blood to get there versus face and body.
Sgt. Andrews: I just wanted to talk to you about...I read in the...in the autopsy
report that Dr. Davis used "hippocratic facies" in describing her
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face. She used "hippocratic facies" and I...I looked it up...you
know...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: I didn't know what it was. I looked it up and it talked about the
pallor and the sunken-in...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: The sunken-in look. Now I've seen it...26 years as a policeman I've
seen it too usually on dead people. But I looked at the autopsy
pictures and you haven't yet.
Dr. Podgorny: I have not.
Sgt. Andrews: Yes. And we...and let me explain why we did not bring any of that.
We did not want to mix any possibilities of you testifying civilly for
Mr. Dandar....
Dr. Podgorny: I understand.
Sgt. Andrews: And giving you part of our criminal case.
Dr. Podgorny: I understand...
Sgt. Andrews: That's why we didn't bring it. I'd love to been able to show you
pictures, and we may be able to do that down the line.
Dr. Podgorny: I understand.
Sgt. Andrews: But this hippocratic facies she had...to me when I looked at
her...you know...I knew something was wrong but I'm a policeman.
I think... or my opinion is that my children, who are older, or the
next-door neighbor looked at this hippocratic facies... the way her
face looked...would recognize a problem. Now, did that happen
only upon the last day of her death or is that something coming on
from the dehydration?
Dr. Podgorny: That's from dehydration.
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Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And that probably was present for the last...you know...the worse
the dehydration, the more it's present.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: So I would say it'd probably been present for at least five or six
days.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. That's what I was getting at.
Dr. Podgorny: It will not come in suddenly the last day.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And again, that's a part of what I told you...that anyone trained in
this country ought to be able to recognize.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. That wraps up about my questions pretty much.
Agent Strope: What do...what do you think of the idea of having to close
someone's nose to feed them?
Dr. Podgorny: Not an appropriate thing to do.
Agent Strope: What do you think of the idea of getting a...you know...a large
syringe...like a turkey baster and trying to make...
Dr. Podgorny: Not a good idea. Plainly from this point of view... if you have an
adult...you know...putting aside...you have children?
Sgt. Andrews: Yes...two.
Dr. Podgorny: You know...putting aside an infant who won't eat...
Sgt. Andrews: Right.
Dr. Podgorny: Or one takes drops...
Sgt. Andrews: Medication.
Dr. Podgorny: Medication.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
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Dr. Podgorny: Putting those aside in an adult...that you have to (A) close the nose
to feed or use the syringe to feed...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: That means they need medical care. I think that's an automatic
sinequanon. If you've got to do this to an adult, they need medical
care because either they are so bad off mentally that they cannot
cooperate or they are so bad off mentally that they are so angry at
you that they will not eat. Its either case, today in America they
need medical care. You know...even in your worst jail, the jailer
will send them to the hospital.
Sgt. Andrews: Now that type of treatment, in our investigation, has been revealed
that that was suggested and then shown to the caretakers by a
dentist. The holding the nose and squirting the...the...
Dr. Podgorny: Syringe.
Sgt. Andrews: Syringe...a large syringe...he used a large syringe without the
needle to administer aspirin mixed with Benadryl...okay. Now
we..we...we go ahead and add those to our caretakers...you haven't
had the opportunity to know that yet.
Dr. Podgorny: No.
Sgt. Andrews: But we have the dentist, Dr. Houghton, squirting a mixture of
aspirin and Benadryl into her mouth.
Dr. Podgorny: Very inappropriate.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Very inappropriate. Now what would those medications...
Dr. Podgorny: Dentists have no business treating her for a non-dental problem
outside of his license.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
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Dr. Podgorny: Dentists treat teeth and the tissues of the mouth. It has nothing
to do with the feeding. It has nothing to do with administering
non-dentally appropriate medications. You cannot go to your
dentist and tell him you have a cold and you want some medicine
for a cold.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: You can go to him and say you have a toothache and he is right to
treat you then. Secondly, it is not a part of a dental business to
squirt...what was it...aspirin and Benadryl.
Sgt. Andrews: Aspirin and Benadryl mixed together.
Dr. Podgorny: You know...Benadryl is an antihistamine...also has some calming
effect.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Particularly with babies. I don't know if you ever noticed your wife
may have used Benadryl just to help babies sleep. It's very mild
but does have a tendency to do that...you know. Aspirin has a
minimal calming effect also. But as you know well, aspirin is
mostly for pain. Certainly combining the two and squirting, I know
of no medical indication as such to do it. So it looks to me like
another hokus pokus...
Sgt. Andrews: Maybe a home remedy for...
Dr. Podgorny: Home remedy....
Sgt. Andrews: Maybe for rest or sleep...
Dr. Podgorny: Possible.
Agent Strope: But...but either way, the dentist was over-stepping his boundaries.
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Agent Strope: So that's not for him to...
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Dr. Podgorny: No...absolutely. Have you talked to another dentist?
Agent Strope: No...
Sgt. Andrews: Not yet.
Agent Strope: Not yet...no.
Dr. Podgorny: You...you...you should.
Agent Strope: So...so the right thing for him to say would've been...
Dr. Podgorny: To say "If it's' not a dental problem, I'm' limited" you know...limited
dentist, podiatrist, or limited practitioners...they can only deal with
certain parts of the body. And only physicians and osteopaths are
licensed to deal with the body in general. You know...I can treat a
toothache as a physician.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: But a dentist cannot treat a cold.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: You know...this may be unfair and I'm not critical of them or
anything but...
Sgt. Andrews: Yeah, but...but you would not...as an M.D., you wouldn't open
their mouth and drill the both...
Dr. Podgorny: Correct.
Sgt. Andrews: You would just give them something for the pain and...
Dr. Podgorny: I would...
Sgt. Andrews: And maybe the antibiotics and then send them to a dentist...
Dr. Podgorny: Correct...exactly.
Sgt. Andrews: In this case, he should've just stopped and said "We need to send
her to the hospital or a doctor."
Dr. Podgorny: "You need to have a doctor...a medical doctor take care of it. If she
had a bad tooth, I know what to do for it and I'll do it."
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Agent Strope: Do...do...do physicians...are physicians trained to recognize...and
understand...you know...yOu've got to understand that I'm like
Wayne. I've been a cop all my life. I go to the doctor once a year.
Thank God I don't have to go more. Are they...are they trained to
recognize when a person has psychiatric and mental ailments
versus physical ailments?
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah.
Agent Strope: So if this person...you...you've read these caretaker notes and you
see this how she stares at a light and stares at a spot on the ceiling
and kisses one of her caretakers and says all these things. Are
...are those...are those easily recognizable symptoms of some
mental breakdown?
Dr. Podgorny: A physician...an average physician will not be in the position to
make the definitive final diagnosis. He or she are able to say "This
is abhorrent behavior indicative of psychiatric problems.
Agent Strope: "Or some abnormality there that someone else beyond me needs to
look at."
Dr. Podgorny: Exactly...exactly. But it's evident any of those behaviors have only
two explanations... malingering and a psychiatric illness.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And malingering is also abnormal. You don't malinger...you don't
malinger...I don't malinger. There must be a reason why somebody
malingers. That reason needs to be discovered.
Agent Strope: I see.
Dr. Podgorny: So that's why these things need to be attended to by someone
knowledgeable. Now there are many doctors who know enough
psychiatry to deal with minor things and I have no problem with
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that. But most doctors say "I think we'll get a psychiatrist to take
a look."
Agent Strope: Just to be prudent.
Dr. Podgorny: Just to be prudent and see what's going on. The psychiatrist will
then say "We really need to hospitalize her" or "You better not give
her this and this medicine...this makes it worse...we better give her
this medicine that will help her." And so...and I think that's very
obvious. And somebody of this woman's caliber, who's an
Anesthesiologist...who has dealt with very sick people...very ill
people...those people who are ill physically...people who are ill
mentally...and people who are ill with both...surely would have
recognized that...that this is a problem that needs to have further
care and something that neither she nor the lay people in there are
in any way or form capable of dealing with.
Agent Strope: Is...is...is her lack of any useful rest periods toward rebuilding
herself...her lack of any of that rest period...is that also a symptom
of this mental breakdown? Do people who have those problems
not sleep or sleep...you know...for an hour...?
Dr. Podgorny: That's hard to say. That's more individual. Some people just
remain agitated forever until you give them some specific
medication to do that. And some have spurts of activity and
agitation and then just exhausted...fall back and sleep a long time
and get reorganized...get up again...have another period and then
fall back again.
Agent Strope: Well now...her...her cycle seems to be to sleep a couple of
hours... sleep an hour...sleep a couple of hours. But yet there was
one day where she just slept for eight hours.
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Dr. Podgorny: She must have been exhausted.
Agent Strope: Either exhausted or given something...is that...?
Dr. Podgorny: Exhausted...given something...dehydrated...not enough
nourishment. Think of yourself. What if you don't eat for two
days. What are you gonna feel like? You know, you're not gonna
feel like a whole lot.
Sgt. Andrews: I think that, on the day that we have the eight hours, there's a
possibility that we've been able to track down that the liquid
Valium prescription comes into effect. I don't know if I'm doing it
right...it would be 5...I'm trying to think of it...it was 5 mg...
Agent Strope: It was 5 mg. of Valium.
Dr. Podgorny: That's a fairly standard dose.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. Of liquid Valium. Now would that make her sleep eight
hours?
Dr. Podgorny: Eight hours...5 mg. of Valium...
Sgt. Andrews It would definitely add to her sleep that had only been an hour or
so...
Dr. Podgorny: I do not know about eight hours. It's the...it's the next to the
smallest dose....2 1/2 mg.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: It's the kind of least dose you can give an adult and have a result.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: There is an oral dose of 1 1/4....
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Which is just the bare bare minimum. And then I.M., 2 1/2 is the
smallest and I think it'll just help you sleep. And then 5 probably
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will give you a couple of hours a sleep. Of course, a lot depends on
what else you had...how strong she is...how dehydrated she is.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And of course...you know...if you give that to Schwarzenegger, it's
not gonna touch him.
Agent Strope: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: You give it to a gal who weighs 120 lbs...
Sgt. Andrews: It makes a difference.
Dr. Podgorny: So it's conceivably good.
Agent Strope: If she was...say...say that was a day when she had a lot of activity
in a few days and she was totally exhausted. Wouldn't that Valium
just kinda...
Dr. Podgorny: Sure. It would just knock her out...knock her out.
Sgt. Andrews: We had talked to one of the people there... the caretakers on the
last day. She...just to give her some...some background on her so
that you can answer this question correctly...she is a Mexican
citizen who went through all of medical school in Mexico but then
never did go ahead and apply and practice as a doctor. So she
only received I guess her training... a formal education training.
But she makes a statement on the last day of...of Lisa's life...that
when she came in, they were gonna get her washed and that her
sphincter was relaxed. Now I don't know...I don't remember ever
seeing anybody with a relaxed sphincter other than dead people.
Can you give us some background on relaxed sphincters?
Dr. Podgorny: Sure. I think this is probably a function of her English. If she was
trained here, she would have said she was incontinent.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
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Dr. Podgorny: Meaning that unable to control her urine and bowel movements.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: And since each function is controlled by a sphincter...which is a
circular muscle that contracts and relaxes. And that's how you
urinate. You know when you need to urinate and you can initiate
urination and stop it. And you know when you're gonna have a
bowel movement. You relax...you have a bowel movement. You
know when...you know if a doctor ever does a rectal on you how
uncomfortable it is. That's the sphincter. Now if a sphincter is not
functioning, in English you would call it incontinence... a medical
term.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay...okay. That's where I must be confused.
Dr. Podgorny: Well, you are correct that, when somebody dies, the sphincter dies
too. It's relaxed and so dead bodies often have feces and urine.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Dr. Podgorny: When you are unconscious, they can relax. When you take a lot of
Valium, they can relax. It's a bad sign.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: It's a bad sign...meaning that the neurological function is
inappropriate because an average healthy individual should not do
this. They will know that they need to do number one and number
two and they do it.
Agent Strope: So...so...so this happening...this...
Dr. Podgorny: And this is happening when?
Agent Strope: 8:00 that morning...give or take...
Dr. Podgorny: The day...the day...
Agent Strope: The day she died.
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Sgt. Andrews: The day she died.
Dr. Podgorny: Did she say anything else about her?
Agent Strope: She said that she had a fixed stare...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: A fixed gaze...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: Breathing heavily... sphincter relaxed.
Dr. Podgorny: She already had her embolus.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. So...
Dr. Podgorny: She had her embolus prior to that. Her brain was essentially
non-functional. Her brain had released the sphincters. And this
woman noticed that.
Agent Strope: They had to carry her to the bathroom. She wasn't conscious...or
she had....did it say not conscious...it did say eyes...
Dr. Podgorny: I think she had the...she was moribund....she was about to die.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: This is a soon-before-death type finding in a situation like this.
Another situation with incontinence that you would know but you
haven't thought of it are paraplegics.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: You know...people who...
Sgt. Andrews: Have neurological damage.
Dr. Podgorny: Car accident...motorcycle...etc. They have no means of controlling
their function. And I don't know if you have any social
friends...people you know socially...who are paraplegic.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: They have to have a catheter to drain the urine.
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Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Agent Strope: So there are...there are a...there are a set number of causes for
this condition...for this...this relaxed sphincter?
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah.
Agent Strope: And you can say that...
Dr. Podgorny: And you can be...
Agent Strope: Caused by this...this...this...or this...
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, you can do it if you want to.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Unless you absolutely have a great control and you're so mad at
everybody and you get in a hotel bed and defecate in the hotel bed.
But even then you're gonna control your sphincter. And that's how
for example there are malingerers who say they are paraplegic and
they won't move their legs. And one way to figure them out is to
suddenly do a rectal. And boy, they jump up.
Sgt. Andrews: And they move their legs.
Agent Strope: So they're malingering.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright.
Agent Strope: One of the care...one of the...I'm sure you read the note of Bob
Greenwood. He was one of the...by the way, he's...
Sgt. Andrews: Paul.
Agent Strope: Paul Greenwood. He's a retired chiropractor.
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: He was one of the ones that transferred Lisa from the hotel over to
Morton Plant...I mean...I'm sorry...to the HCA the day she died.
And he said that, on the way to the hospital...when he left the
hospital...when they left the room, she had a blank stare...couldn't
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carry herself...they had to carry her and her breathing was very
shallow. This is what he's saying. I don't know if that's true or
not. That's what I'm asking you. Her breathing was very shallow.
And then on the way to the hospital...close to the hospital...halfway
on the trip to the hospital, her breathing became very labored.
Would that be...
Dr. Podgorny: That's probably a correct observation. She's dying. She's not
breathing. Her oxygen is getting worse and worse. And then there
is that final attempt to recuperate...the body's attempt...she was
like this...and suddenly she's like "Ah. .Ah. .Ah."...taking a few final
gasps and dies. I think those observations will fit the picture...the
woman...Mexican woman's observations
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Fit the picture.
Sgt. Andrews: So it's your expert testimony that...that at least...were there...she's
there for 17 days...so at least 10 days back from the day she dies,
people should be becoming alarmed at her condition, especially the
trained people like Dr. Johnson.
Dr. Podgorny: Even the dentist.
Sgt. Andrews: Even the dentist becoming alarmed and...
Dr. Podgorny: Even the woman from Mexico should've...
Sgt. Andrews: Should've picked something up.
Dr. Podgorny: At least picked up that...you know...nothing is helping her.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright. So 10 days...that's 10 days back, so we're say 7 days into
her captivity. Now we get into about 13 days, which is 4 days say
before she died. Would the normal...would...would...would the
normal person...and I...I hate to use the person next door...but
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would the normal housekkeeper next door look at this woman and
be able to tell something is wrong and...and get some help?
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Sgt. Andrews: This is...this is not something that...and... and I'm trying to shoot
down using you as the expert the theory from the defense that
"Listen, everything was fine until the afternoon of the...the 5th of
December and she died."
Dr. Podgorny: Impossible.
Sgt. Andrews: That is impossible?
Dr. Podgorny: That is, a scientific impossibility.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Without question.
Sgt. Andrews: No way.
Dr. Podgorny: There are no ifs and buts. It never happened in medicine before
unless this is the first time it's ever occurred since the beginning of
the world.
Agent Strope: There...there has been some guesses by medical people that there's
a possibility that 5 or 10 days prior to her passing away she
received no substantial liquid...no...no water. Is that...is that...do
you think...?
Dr. Podgorny: 5 or...
Agent Strope: 5 to 10 days she may not'have gotten anything...as far as anything
to hydrate her body.
Dr. Podgorny: I think more than that, but I wouldn't argue with probably 5 days
alone would not be enough to cause the dehydration.
Sgt. Andrews: So it would be...have to be more than 5 days she wasn't getting the
liquids?
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Dr. Podgorny: Right. I think she never got enough liquids any of the days that
she was there. And the cumulative effect...
Agent Strope: Let me...let me ask you this while we're still on that. If...if...say on
day 5 she all of a sudden started drinking...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: And eating.
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Agent Strope: Do you think her physical condition would have...
Dr. Podgorny: Improved.
Agent Strope: Recouped to an extent?
Dr. Podgorny: Oh yeah...sure...sure. 5 days is not too bad if she's back to normal
and starts eating and drinking. She'd start gaining weight.
Agent Strope: So what...so what you're saying is it would've been as simple as
nutrition and hydration to recoup her if things were done
correctly?
Dr. Podgorny: Physically...physically.
Agent Strope: Physically.
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, on the 5th day take her to a hospital...boom boom...nutrition,
etc. established at the same time. Psych people come in and start
giving her psychiatric medications, which is...you know...what
they've been using...but other specific drugs. Start talking to her
trying to figure out what's wrong if anything is really seriously
wrong with her. And she's on the way to recovery. She's just
gonna be a thin lady and it'll take her a month or two to...
Sgt. Andrews: Recover.
Dr. Podgorny: To recover.
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Agent Strope: I'm sure that you've seen a lot of cases where people just had
mental breakdowns and went through this.
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Agent Strope: And then you treat the physical condition and get ready to treat
the mental condition.
Dr. Podgorny: Absolutely.
Sgt. Andrews: Well, the doctor is also indicating that it is his opinion that the
lack of the food and water or liquids may, have contributed to more
of her mental disability.
Dr. Podgorny: They did...unquestionably.
Sgt. Andrews: They did.
Dr. Podgorny: Well, we'll take you...and you're a cop and you're fairly...you know
...adept at living and...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Surviving, etc. And if we give you no food and water for 5 days,
you're gonna be partially crazy by then.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: You're not gonna be a normal cop.
Agent Strope: Well, what if I just...
Sgt. Andrews: If I'm in captivity...I'm in captivity...I means she's...
Dr. Podgorny: It's even more...
Sgt. Andrews: She's being kept in a motel room...
Dr. Podgorny: Even more. . .
Agent Strope: But I'll just give...I'll just give him Vitamin B1 and B6 and
Potassium and he'll be alright. Right?
Dr. Podgorny: No, he won't.
Sgt. Andrews: No, I won't be alright.
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Dr. Podgorny: Won't be alright.
Agent Strope: So these...so given...given all the other problems
these...these...these vitamins and Potassium...
Dr. Podgorny: They're worthless.
Agent Strope: They...they...they were worthless.
Dr. Podgorny: Worthless.
Sgt. Andrews: I don't have anymore questions.
Agent Strope: Let's...let's just take a break for a minute and shut it off.
Dr. Podgorny: You know...this is...what bothers me most about this case from the
human point of view is that, not only they kind of mistreated
her...they knew what the outcome was going to be. That's what
bothers me.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Verbalizing it to you...if you get my point. There is a situation
when I lock you up and I won't let you out...and I know that, well,
you'll stay there 10 days...that there is water and food, etc...you
know...it's not gonna really harm you as such. But if I know that,
if in 10 days you're likely to be dead and there is no other
recourse, that's what bothers me,, It also becomes to me as a...I
don't know what the legal term is...complicity in committing a
murder.
Sgt. Andrews: Intent.
Dr. Podgorny: Intent...is that what it's called?
Sgt. Andrews: Intended to do that.
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah. Now I don't think they would want to begin with to kill this
woman.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
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Dr. Podgorny: You know...I do not know...maybe they were. What I'm trying to
say is...to me as a lay person in regards to police and legal work,
there is one of a man who after an after-thought goes and plans
and kills somebody.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: That's one situation. Then there's a guy who runs over somebody
with a car...just one that gets manslaughter or whatever. And
then there's a guy...a doctor who's taking care of the patient and
he's just not doing the right thing and the patient dies. The doctor
didn't want to kill him. The doctor really wanted to help, but
unfortunately the doctor goofed or he didn't know enough. I think
he is still to some degree responsible. Now I do not think they
brought her in there and said "We're gonna kill you and we will kill
you by dehydrating you...not giving you food...incarcerating
you...giving you Mag...giving you this and the other". I don't think
they had that in mind. But what bothers me is after a few days
they recognized that was developing with her. And whatever care
available from them...if it's not changed...the result can only be
death. There is no other result available...no alternative. That's
what bothers me...that from that point on, they are doing
something that they know most likely will result in death.
Agent Strope: So...so you think is more than just the case of the physician who
leaves a sponge inside their patient?
Dr. Podgorny: Exactly...exactly now. He did not do well, but he really did not
mean to do it. Most doctors who leave a sponge...you know that, if
they could've, they would not have left it in.
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Agent Strope: Of course, the crime would come if they knew it was in there an
didn't go back and get it...
Sgt. Andrews: If he knew it was there...all of a sudden he said "Oh, I left a sponge
in that patient...forget it..."
Dr. Podgorny: He needs to go back and...
Sgt. Andrews: Is that...is that similar to what you're saying here?
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Sgt. Andrews: Very well put.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Sgt. Andrews: That's the best I've seen it put so far.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Sgt. Andrews: Thank you. I'm just gonna shut the tape off so we can talk a little
bit.
Dr. Podgorny: Sure.
Sgt. Andrews: And I don't know if we're gonna come back or not to it.
TAPE BACK ON
Sgt. Andrews: Alright, we're back on the tape.
Agent Strope: Okay. We're back on the tape. It's 4:05 and we've just got a
couple more questions. In...in Dr. Minkoff's statements, he said
that if...if "No matter where Lisa would've been taken that night,
she would've died...whether it had been Morton Plant or HCA." Do
you agree with that?
Dr. Podgorny: At the status that is reflected on the medical records of New Port
Richey Hospital.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Based on those at that time, she would've been dead elsewhere.
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Agent Strope: Okay. So it would've been a few hours earlier?
Dr. Podgorny: The farther away you go from that time, there is a little margin of
hope.
Agent Strope: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And the more you go farther and say what if it would've been 6
hours before...8 hours before...more chance. And then if you'll
refresh my memory where the sphincters were not
functioning...when was that?
Agent Strope: 8:00....8:00 to 9:00 in the morning. We're not sure.
Dr. Podgorny: Okay.
Agent Strope: It was morning time.
Dr. Podgorny: Just for the sake of answering your question...if we could go back
and say this would've happened if they would've taken her 2 hours
before her sphincters gave up, she would've had a much better
chance of survival. And the farther you go, the better chance you
would've had. But it would be impossible to quantify it.
Agent Strope: Okay. Does this sphincter relaxation necessarily correlate with
unconsciousness?
Dr. Podgorny: To a great degree...yes. Not so much through unconsciousness as
to the lack of activity of brain centers.
Sgt. Andrews: So the embolus...
Dr. Podgorny: Some of these questions like this last one you asked
me...conceivably you may have already discussed it with the
lady...what's her name...Wood...
Sgt. Andrews: Dr. Joan Wood...
Dr. Podgorny: Dr. Joan Wood. She may be able...because she did the autopsy...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
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Dr. Podgorny: And she has examined the brain and she examined all the tissues.
She may be in a better position than I in dealing with some of
these very specific questions. But in general, when you have
relaxation of...in somebody who is not paraplegic...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And somebody who has not been hit on the head. It's the lack of
function of the brain centers.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: And that's why that's very important. So after that occurs,
chances are getting very narrow for survival. Before that
occurring, chances are better?
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Agent Strope: I guess what you're saying is at anytime before this arrival at the
hospital...while she was still at least breathing...there was a
fighting chance.
Dr. Podgorny: Yes.
Agent Strope: Once breathing...breathing ceased...then a period of time
passed...even...even resuscitation was useless.
Dr. Podgorny: Correct.
Agent Strope: So there was at least a shot prior to that time?
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah. And so that you understand, the reason is in this particular
situation, her resuscitation could not...could not have been
accomplished without resolving the clots first.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Dr. Podgorny: Unlike other CPR...a kid who drowns in the pool...
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
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Dr. Podgorny: You do CPR in order to get the heart started again...the lungs are
basically okay...and get the water okay. Here, even if you get the
heart started, the blood has nowhere to go. You've got to start
dissolving the clot in order to allow for CPR to progress.
Sgt. Andrews: Alright. Now would that be possible in a trauma room if...if they
find the clot?
Dr. Podgorny: In time.
Sgt. Andrews: In time?
Dr. Podgorny: In time...yes...in time. So you have no more than the custodial
things?
Sgt. Andrews: No. That's...that's the only ones that we have. There's a bunch of
them missing. As you look through them...
Dr. Podgorny: Uh Huh.
Sgt. Andrews: You can see that. Now the only thing we do have that may be of
assistance later on is we have depositioned all of these people who
wrote them. Now we have talked to people who were taking care of
her the last two or three days who say they wrote these reports but
we don't have them. But we have that information.. You know
what I'm saying? We may not have a written document but we
have the person...
Agent Strope: Yeah, those are your...
Sgt. Andrews: We have the person who took care of her Doctor...so...
Dr. Podgorny: Yeah, but they have nothing to say different from this?
Sgt. Andrews: No. Other than some of the things we've asked you about the
sphincter.
Dr. Podgorny: Alright.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. You know what I'm saying...that...
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Dr. Podgorny: But basically...
Sgt. Andrews: Basically it's this.
Dr. Podgorny: Basically this...
Sgt. Andrews: Right.
Dr. Podgorny: And whatever is missing is missing for the time being.
Sgt. Andrews: For the time being.
Dr. Podgorny: Okay.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay. I don't have any further questions.
Agent Strope: I don't have any further...and if we decide to, we'll just turn it back
on.
Sgt. Andrews: Okay.
Agent Strope: I don't know if we've covered everything or not. I hate to drive all
the way up here and not...
Sgt. Andrews: We have no further to put on the tape. The time is now 1620
hours.
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Ofc. Reporting Det. Sgt. Andrews/elg ID No. 603
Case Status Active Date Cleared ________________
Clearance Type Exception Type
1. Arrest 1. Extradition declined 3. Death of Offender
Adult Juvenile
2. Exceptional 2. AR of primary offense, 4. V/W refused to cooperate
3. Unfounded secondary offense, 5. Prosecution declined
w/o prosecution 6. Juv/No Custody
Ok. Reviewing Date SAO Info
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