Lisa McPherson Files - Sworn Statement of Judy Fontana
OSA Legal
From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa
McPherson's death:
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
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3
4
5 STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
6 RE: LISA MCPHERSON
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8
9
10
11 SWORN STATEMENT: JUDY FONTANA.
12
TAKEN BY: MARK NCGARRY.
13
14 DATE: September 17, 1997.
15
BEFORE: Kristine N. Blake, RNR,
16 Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
17
18 PLACE: Criminal Justice Center,
State Attorney's Office,.
19 Clearwater, Florida.
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21
22
23
24 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
25 ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
ORIGINAL
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1
2 APPEARANCES: MARK MCGARRY, ESQUIRE,
Assistant State Attorney,
3 Attorney for State of Florida.
4 JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE,
101 E. Kennedy Boulevard,
5 Suite 3950,
Tampa, FL 33601
6 Attorney for Judy Fontana.
7
ALSO PRESENT: SERGEANT WAYNE ANDREWS.
8
SPECIAL AGENT LEE STROPE.
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10
11
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1 JUDY FONTANA,
2 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
3 examined and was deposed as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. MCGARRY:
6 Q. All right. My name's Mark McGarry. You've
7 met everybody else in the room. We're conducting an
8 investigation in reference to Lisa McPherson's death.
9 Your name has been provided to us as a person that
10 might have some information in relationship to that.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Would you put your name on the record,
13 please.
14 A. My name is Judy Fontana.
15 Q. All right. And your address?
16 A. It's 551 Saturn Avenue in Clearwater.
17 Q. Is that Hacienda Gardens?
18 A. That's Hacienda Gardens, correct.
19 MR. MCGARRY: Your lawyer might like to
20 put something on the record.
21 MR. LAURO: Thank you, Mark. My name is
22 John Lauro, and I represent Ms. Fontana, and she's
23 testifying today pursuant to a subpoena that's been
24 issued by the Pinellas County State Attorney's Office,
25 and she's testifying pursuant to that subpoena and
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1 under the protections thereof.
2 BY MR. MCGARRY:
3 Q. Okay. Some background information. Your
4 birth date?
5 A. It's X, 1955.
6 Q. All right. And how long have you lived in
7 Clearwater?
8 A. I've lived in Clearwater off and on for 17
9 years.
10 Q. Where'd you live prior to that?
11 A. Before that I was in Arizona, in X.
12 Q. All right. And when did you join the church?
13 A. Well, I first took services with the church
14 in 1973, June 1973.
15 Q. And where was that?
16 A. That was in an area -- in Peekskill, New
17 York. That's in Westchester County.
18 Q. Uh-huh. And when did you move from New York?
19 A. 1973.
20 Q. And why, for the church or for other reasons?
21 A. No, just for personal reasons.
22 Q. And where'd you move from New York to?
23 A. Well, I went to X, Arizona where I had
24 a friend staying out there.
25 Q. All right. And did you join the church out
Page 3912 Image
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1 there, or is there a church?
2 A. There isn't a church out there.
3 Q. Okay. When was your next contact with the
4 Church of Scientology?
5 A. The next contact was approximately -- it was
6 either 1977 or '78.
7 Q. Where was that?
8 A. That was in X.
9 Q. All right. And that's where you moved from
10 Prescott?
11 A. That's -- that's right.
12 Q. And was the purpose of that move part of --
13 for church reasons or other personal reasons?
14 A. I was attending school at X State.
15 Q. All right. And reinitiated your contact with
16 the church once you were there?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. All right. Now, was that as a parishioner or
19 was that as a staff member?
20 A. Initially it was as a parishioner.
21 Q. Okay. When did you become staff?
22 A. It was about, I'd say, within -- it was
23 either three or four weeks.
24 Q. All right. And what did you do for them out
25 there?
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1 A. I was in an area that's called the
2 dissemination area, and I was registering people for
3 religious services.
4 Q. All right. And how long did you do that?
5 A. Until January '80.
6 Q. And why did you stop doing that?
7 A. Well, I stopped because my husband had moved
8 to Clearwater.
9 Q. And that is who?
10 A. Paul Johnson. Sorry, my ex-husband --
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. -- my husband at that time. He had moved to
13 Clearwater and had joined Staff here, and I had stayed
14 over there a little bit after he had left to wrap some
15 things up and then joined him in Clearwater.
16 Q. All right. And when you came to Clearwater,
17 was the sole move to Clearwater because of the church
18 or because of other reasons?
19 A. Because of my husband.
20 Q. Well -- your husband?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. I see. That he was with -- he was totally
23 connected with the church at the time?
24 A. He was a staff member.
25 Q. And still is?
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1 A. Yes, he still lives in Clearwater.
2 Q. And his name is Paul Johnson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Like the lawyer but not the lawyer?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. All right. Did you become a member of staff
7 when you arrived in Clearwater?
8 A. Well, not on an immediate basis. Originally
9 when I came here I had some pretty substantial debts
10 that I had from when I was in college, and I used the
11 opportunity to get my debts paid off, and that took me
12 the better part of a year.
13 Q. How did you pay your debts off?
14 A. Well, there was a --
15 Q. I know you're not gonna do it through the
16 church at 50 bucks a week.
17 A. No, that's true. I got various jobs.
18 There's various jobs that were in downtown Clearwater,
19 and I paid them off that way.
20 Q. Okay. So when did you join staff again in
21 Clearwater?
22 A. Well, I officially joined staff August of
23 '81.
24 Q. In what position?
25 A. That was in a group that's called the World
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1 Institute of Scientology Enterprises. The name is
2 actually called WISE. WISE at that time was in
3 downtown Clearwater on Fort Harrison, and I joined
4 staff there and did work with them in their treasury
5 department doing collections.
6 Q. What -- what exactly does that mean,
7 collections?
8 A. Well, they -- they're a membership
9 organization, and there are different members that
10 would pay dues on occasion, and I would help collect
11 the dues and invoice them in and that sort of thing, do
12 the banking.
13 Q. All right. What position was your husband
14 employed with the church at the time?
15 A. My husband -- let's see -- at that time was
16 in public relations.
17 Q. All right. When did your -- if it's not too
18 personal, when did your marriage go bad with Paul?
19 Somewhere in that period of time, because I know you're
20 married to --
21 A. Right.
22 Q. -- Humberto, right?
23 A. Well, actually, probably somewhere around
24 that time, yeah.
25 Q. Okay. When did you go into the OSA office?
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1 A. September 10th, 1984.
2 Q. All right. And been there ever since?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. Well--
6 MR. LAURO: Not currently. She's not
7 currently there.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not currently
9 there, and I've also had short breaks in between that
10 time period where I have done other activities.
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. Okay. Where are you now?
13 A. Well, right now I'm actually not part of the
14 organization per se. I'm in a program which is
15 involved with intensive study and intensive renovations
16 and that's what I'm doing currently.
17 Q. Renovations as in personal renovations or
18 renovations --
19 A. No, no, no. Physical, physical properties.
20 Q. Of the church?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. When did that occur?
23 A. Well, that occurred in Clearwater just as of
24 about seven days ago.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. Before that I was in Los Angeles.
2 Q. And when did you go to Los Angeles?
3 A. In the end of January '97.
4 Q. Okay. Why did you go to Los Angeles in -- in
5 January?
6 A. Well, at the time I was sent out there to do
7 a correction program, counseling, training, that sort
8 of thing.
9 Q. All right. Let's talk about your spiritual
10 studies, if we could, for a second.
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. What's your current status? Is it clear?
13 A. Clear.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Any levels above that? Are you --
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. And when did you obtain that status?
19 A. '79.
20 Q. Okay. All right. During the period of time
21 of November of '95 you were in the OSA office, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. All right. And your position in that
24 particular office was what?
25 A. Legal officer.
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1 Q. All right. And you were surrounded by
2 several other people within that office, correct?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Can you name those people?
5 A. Sure. There's my husband.
6 Q. Uh-huh.
7 A. Brian Anderson, Annie Mora, Alice Herben,
8 Mary Story.
9 MR. LAURO: Okay. Just go a little
10 slower.
11 THE WITNESS: Sure. Mary Story.
12 MR. LAURO: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: Alice Herben, H-e-r-b-e-n.
14 BY MR.MCGARRY:
15 Q. All right
16 A. That's --
17 Q. If you missed one, that's okay. Can you
18 describe your duties at that particular time as a legal
19 officer?
20 A. Okay. Well, my duties basically were I was
21 in charge of all litigation for the church in
22 Clearwater. At that time we had a number of different
23 active matters. Also --
24 Q. What do you mean in charge of litigation?
25 What does that mean?
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1 A. Well, I would directly work with all of our
2 church counsel in running litigation we had including
3 attending, you know -- and on behalf of the church for
4 anything as well.
5 Q. All right. Let's talk about your legal
6 background. What legal background do you have?
7 A. None.
8 Q. All right. How were you selected for that
9 particular position? I mean, was that -- was there
10 a --
11 A. Any qualifications you mean?
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. I guess because somebody thought that I was
14 probably bright.
15 Q. Okay. Well, that's a good answer.
16 A. I don't really know.
17 Q. But no legal -- formal legal training?
18 A. No, no, no.
19 Q. Law school or studies?
20 A. No. I was an art major in college, so that
21 had nothing to do with it.
22 MR. LAURO: Although I'm not sure it's
23 clear that -- on the record that you started out as a
24 legal officer. I think you began --
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't actually
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1 begin as the legal officer.
2 MR. LAURO: You may want to explain
3 that.
4 BY MR. MCGARRY:
5 Q. When did you obtain that title? If you were
6 an OSA and had other positions in OSA, why don't you
7 break that down for me?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Because I know you were in there for almost
10 ten -- quite a number of years.
11 A. Originally when I came in, I came in to do --
12 well, it's actually very similar, it just wasn't called
13 legal officer. It was called legal preparations, and I
14 would work specifically on litigation and prepare
15 materials for the attorneys for the different lawsuits
16 that we had going on at the time.
17 Q. All right. So during that period of time and
18 as well as this period of time where you were a legal
19 liaison officer, I guess is what you are, if a lawyer
20 called OSA, they'd talk to you and get whatever
21 information they needed?
22 A. That's right, unless it was a specific area
23 like immigration.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Immigration had somebody else.
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1 Q. All right. But that's what your title was in
2 November of '95? As a matter of fact -- when did you
3 get that position so I can establish that?
4 A. That was around -- it was either '88 or '89.
5 Q. All right. So you had it for a full five or
6 six years prior to Lisa's spin, should we say?
7 A. That's true. With -- other than there was a
8 very short break for about three months that was in, I
9 think, 1992 or three, something like that.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ever know Lisa McPherson
11 personally?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Never met her?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When was the first time you heard her name
16 referenced?
17 A. It was sometime at the time where she had her
18 accident, so it was November of '95.
19 Q. Okay. Would that have been the time that
20 she -- somebody called from Morton Plant to OSA and
21 indicated you had a parishioner that was having some
22 problems?
23 A. Well, I heard from somebody else in the
24 office, and I don't specifically remember if it was
25 Humberto or Brian or Annie or someone. That's how I
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1 heard.
2 Q. Okay. Did you take action on that? Were
3 you -- because of that information that you received
4 from somebody in your office, did you, because of your
5 duties there, take a course of action?
6 A. No, not myself.
7 Q. Okay. Did somebody else in the office?
8 A. I know that Humberto went out to Morton
9 Plant.
10 Q. Okay. Anybody else from your office go
11 there?
12 A. Not that I recall.
13 Q. Do you know who it was that called OSA from
14 Morton Plant?
15 A. No.
16 Q. No?
17 Did you have a conversation with anybody from
18 Morton Plant?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. When was the next thing you heard
21 about Lisa in reference to the Morton Plant situation?
22 Did you gain any other data after she was released or
23 during her stay?
24 A. Well, after -- after her stay in the Fort
25 Harrison, I think it was about -- sometime around
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1 Thanksgiving or somewhere thereabouts, it was about
2 halfway into her stay --
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. -- I had -- Paul Kellerhals had given me some
5 information about her stay and the fact that she was
6 staying there and had mentioned that she wasn't
7 sleeping and eating well.
8 Q. All right. Prior to that, though, you had no
9 involvement in the decision of somebody that Lisa was
10 going to be offered a room at the Fort Harrison in
11 order to recuperate?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You weren't involved in that decision?
14 A. No, I wasn't.
15 Q. Who was?
16 A. I actually don't know.
17 Q. All right. So the next thing you knew about
18 the Lisa McPherson situation was that Kellerhals was
19 briefing you on --
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. -- apparently an episode or two that she had
22 had?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Well, also, I should say that he must have
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1 told me that she was staying there after she had
2 arrived.
3 Q. So you knew she was there?
4 A. So I knew she was there --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- at some point.
7 Q. Were you told why she was there and what was
8 the purpose of her stay?
9 A. I don't -- I don't recall any specific
10 conversations about it --
11 Q. Well --
12 A. -- but I must have obviously been told that
13 she was staying there.
14 Q. Being the legal officer -- right. You would
15 be the circle of information being the legal officer,
16 correct? Obviously, there's a situation that requires
17 your being in the loop? I mean, there's a potential
18 legal problem developing, correct?
19 A. Not at that time.
20 Q. Well, she crashed her car, right?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. And she was having apparently a psychotic
23 break and she was staying at the hotel, so you were
24 being apprised of those situations, correct?
25 A. I was apprised it occurred when it occurred,
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1 but it wouldn't be, strictly speaking, a legal matter.
2 It wasn't something that was going to jeopardize the
3 church. At least at that time there was no
4 understanding that that was going to occur.
5 Q. Okay. Were you aware that there was a round
6 the clock watch being implemented for Lisa?
7 A. At some point, yes. I think PK had told me
8 or Paul Kellerhals.
9 Q. And were you aware that there was a document
10 routing of her daily. conduct that was being routed to
11 Alain Kartuzinski?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You weren't aware of that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know who Alain Kartuzinski is?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. When was the next thing that you can recall
18 that happened in reference to Lisa McPherson's stay at
19 the hotel?
20 A. Well, there's an incident that I was -- or
21 this conversation I was telling you about that was, I
22 think, around two weeks after she had arrived with Paul
23 Kellerhals in which he had mentioned something like,
24 you know, she's not sleeping very well or not eating
25 very well.
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1 Q. Right. Did you act upon that?
2 A. Well, I told him to act upon it.
3 Q. And what instructions were those?
4 A. To make sure that she got some treatment so
5 that she was going to eat and, you know, get the proper
6 amount of sleep.
7 Q. And any specific instructions, or were you
8 instructing him just -- I mean, he's a security
9 officer. He's not in charge of health care, is he?
10 A. No, not generally, but he seemed to be in the
11 loop of what was occurring with the situation more than
12 anybody else that I was dealing with.
13 Q. All right. So who was entrusted with her
14 care at that point? Was it you or Alain Kartuzinski or
15 one of the people at MLO? I mean, it sounds like you
16 were making a decision for her care at that point. Was
17 there other people making decisions as well?
18 A. I don't know actually. Paul Kellerhals
19 was -- you know, seemed to be in tune with the
20 situation.
21 Q. Well, who was in -- were you aware that she
22 was there to be -- regain her -- her sanity to some
23 degree and calm down for a course -- an introspective
24 run-down course? Were you aware of that?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Did you ever become aware of that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You're not aware of that to this day?
4 A. No. That wasn't what my understanding was
5 for the reason that she came.
6 Q. What is your understanding for the reason she
7 came?
8 A. My understanding was that she came so that
9 she had a place to stay, because that's what she
10 wanted. That was my understanding.
11 Q. Okay. But you were never -- and to this
12 moment right now you have never been told by anybody in
13 the organization that she was there to become -- for a
14 course that would ultimately come -- I'm not saying
15 that the period of time that she was in that hotel that
16 she was getting this course. I'm not suggesting that.
17 I'm suggesting that she was there to regain her sanity
18 in order to participate in that course.
19 A. No.
20 Q. You weren't -- you aren't aware of that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Not at all.
24 Q. Who was the person from the MLO office that
25 was in charge of Lisa McPherson's health care?
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1 A. I wasn't sure -- I didn't know actually that
2 there was anybody specifically in charge of her health
3 care while she was there. I mean, you're talking about
4 like a medical doctor, correct?
5 Q. I'm talking about your MLO office, medical
6 liaison office, was involved in the watch, correct?
7 A. I know that now. At the time I did not know
8 that.
9 Q. At the time you didn't know that there were
10 any people involved at all from that office in Lisa's
11 care?
12 A. That's right. I thought she was going to an
13 actual medical doctor.
14 Q. Well, when you told Kellerhals that you
15 wanted her taken care of, fed --
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. -- who did you think he was gonna go through
18 but MLO?
19 A. Well, there's hotel people that service
20 somebody to be fed. You don't have to go to a medical
21 officer to get food.
22 Q. I know, but my understanding of your initial
23 conversation with Kellerhals is is that Kellerhals is
24 telling you she ain't doing so well, she's having fits
25 of rage, not eating, not sleeping.
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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Isn't that a job for M -- the MLO office to
3 handle?
4 A. Not really. Well, I mean, it would be
5 something that a doctor would handle. If somebody's
6 not eating correctly, you would -- and you can't get
7 them to eat or coax them into eating, well, then you'd
8 have to call a medical doctor. We don't have --
9 Q. Did you tell Kellerhals to do that?
10 A. I told him if he couldn't get her to eat,
11 yeah, you need to contact a medical doctor.
12 Q. Okay. Was that done?
13 A. At some point it was done. I don't know the
14 actual duration from the time that I had that
15 conversation until the time that a doctor was
16 contacted...
17 Q. Which doctor was that?
18 A. Dr. Minkoff (phonetic.)
19 Q. Well, that was the day she died, correct?
20 A. No, I don't think so.
21 Q. Okay. Your knowledge is that he was
22 contacted prior to the day she died?.
23 A. I thought so.
24 Q. And by who?
25 A. I don't know exactly.
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1 Q. And where did you get that information?
2 A. My recollection is from Paul Kellerhals.
3 Q. He told you that Minkoff was contacted prior
4 to her --
5 A. I--
6 Q. -- dying?
7 A. I think so. I'm not real clear about that,
8 but I believe it was.
9 Q. And how long before she died had that
10 occurred?
11 A. A week maybe.
12 Q. Okay. And are you aware of anything that
13 Dr. Minkoff did in reference to her well-being? I
14 mean, did he come see her or did he prescribe anything?
15 A. I seem to remember that there was a
16 recommendation about some sort of over-the-counter
17 substance. I don't know if it was a vitamin or -- I
18 don't remember specifically.
19 Q. Okay. And you don't know who made the call
20 to Dr. Minkoff?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. All right. Are you aware that Janice Johnson
23 and Emma Schamehorn, Laura Arrunada -- who else?
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Caretakers or the
25 medical people.
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1 MR. MCGARRY: No, MLO people.
2 BY MR.MCGARRY:
3 Q. Were you aware that the MLO office, those
4 three people, were involved with her well-being?
5 A. Not at that time, no.
6 Q. You weren't --
7 A. I am now.
8 Q. In fact, those people were involved from the
9 get go, right? That's what you've learned -- I mean,
10 you have that information now, right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Well, I don't know about Emma, but I do know
14 that in terms of -- there was sporadic contact by
15 Janice and Laura.
16 Q. How about Judy Goldsberry-Weber, was she
17 involved? Do you know her?
18 A. Yes, I do. I just know of her involvement in
19 tens of the Morton Plant incident.
20 Q. How come she wasn't involved if she was the
21 public MLO officer involved in the care of Lisa
22 McPherson?
23 A. I can't answer that question actually.
24 Q. Do you know that she -- if she was or wasn't?
25 A. I don't know if she was or wasn't. The only
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1 thing I specifically recall her involvement with is the
2 Morton Plant incident.
3 Q. Okay. How about Susan Green, do you know if
4 she was involved, in the care?
5 A. Don't know.
6 Q. Do you know who Susan Green is? She's
7 been --
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. -- remarried. I think it was originally --
10 A. Susan Schnurrenberg.
11 Q. Schnurrenberg, correct?
12 A. No, I don't know.
13 Q. So how many people were in the OSA office at
14 the time that Lisa was in Morton Plant? Sounds like
15 the office was full staff. If you were there and your.
16 husband was there --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And who else was there?
19 A. Brain.
20 Q. Annie Mora?
21 A. Annie.
22 Q. And this is what time, eight or nine o'clock
23 at night? What time was that?
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Nine o'clock.
25 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Later, probably ten
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1 o'clock.
2 BY MR. MCGARRY:
3 Q. You guys work long hours.
4 A. Yes, we do.
s Q. So everybody that I mentioned was in the
6 office at that time?
7 MR. LAURO: What time are we talking
8 about?
9 MR. MCGARRY: I'm talking about --
10 THE WITNESS: Nine or ten o'clock at
11 night.
12 MR. MCGARRY: -- nine or ten o'clock at
13 night.
14 MR. LAURO: What day?
15 MR. MCGARRY: The day she went to Morton
16 Plant.
17 MR. LAURO: Oh, okay.
18 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recall,
19 yes, they were all around.
20 BY MR. MCGARRY:
21 Q. Okay. What time do you guys knock off at
22 night?
23 A. Well, on an average --
24 Q. Just out of curiosity.
25 A. On an average, eleven o'clock, eleven, 11:15.
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1 Q. All right. Going back to Minkoff, who called
2 Dr. Minkoff on December 5th? That's the day she -- she
3 died. Do you remember who that was? Were you told who
4 that person was?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever -- have you ever had a
7 conversation with Dr. Minkoff --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- in reference to this case?
10 A. Not myself, no.
11 Q. Not during, before, after, anywhere up until
12 this day?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. When were you told that -- that Lisa
15 passed away?
16 A. The evening that it occurred, which I believe
17 was December 5th.
18 Q. Who told you?
19 A. Brian Anderson.
20 Q. Where were you?
21 A. I was in my office, which is probably about
22 30 feet away from his desk.
23 Q. Okay. Who told him? Do you know?
24 A. I don't know. I just know that he got a
25 phone call.
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1 Q. And what time of night was that?
2 A. I think it was around eleven o'clock at
3 night.
4 Q. All right. What actions did you take at that
5 time?
6 A. Well, what I did was I asked Brian to -- I
7 asked Brian for information about what had happened,
8 you know.
9 Q. Now, you're -- I assume that now you are
10 expecting there may be legal ramifications taking
11 place?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. That's right. I asked Brian to get
15 information about what actually had occurred, what did
16 she die of, you know, what was the aparacy (phonetic,)
17 whatever, she died of, and Brian said that he didn't
18 have all the information and he would have to get more
19 information so that I could contact the attorney.
20 Q. And who was that?
21 A. That's Bob Johnson.
22 Q. All right. When was Bob Johnson contacted?
23 A. I think I called him about -- somewhere
24 between 11:30 and 12.
25 Q. That night?
Page 3936 Image
29
1 A. That night.
2 Q. Okay. You talked to Marcus Corinno?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Were you aware of what his involvement
5 was on December 5th?
6 A. No. Let me explain something as to why I'm
7 saying that. That -- I was scheduled to go to Italy
8 the next morning for a particular legal matter that we
9 had ongoing in Rome, and what I was actually in the
10 middle of doing was preparing for this particular court
11 matter in Rome that night and preparing to leave, so I
12 was basically -- I had turned over everything that I
13 had pending to Brian and Brian was going to be my
14 replacement while I was gone, so that was actually what
15 I was doing. I was rather disconnected from what
16 occurred because of the fact that I was actually gonna
17 be out of there the next morning.
18 Q. And did you, in fact, leave the next
19 morning --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- for Italy?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. So Brian Anderson's the one that was in
24 charge of your position as well as his own position?
25 A. That's right.
Page 3937 Image
30
1 Q. He didn't remember that.
2 A. There was a lot of activity going on that
3 month.
4 Q. Well, he got a committee of evidence out of
5 the whole thing, so that's probably one of the other
6 aspects of that.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. So when did you return from Italy?
9 A. I returned on the 23rd of December and
10 actually was here for half a day, and then I left on
11 the 24th and went to Miami.
12 Q. All right. How long were you in Miami?
13 A. I was in Miami, I think, for about a week or
14 so, and then I came back for a day and then I went to
15 Boston.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. So I returned to Clearwater, I think it was
18 about somewhere around the 10th of January.
19 Q. Of '96?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. When was it you got briefed on all the goings
22 on with the Clearwater investigation in reference to
23 Lisa McPherson's death?
24 A. When I got back.
25 Q. From Boston?
Page 3938 Image
31
1 A. That's right. So early January.
2 Q. And that's when you were brought up to speed
3 on this whole thing?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. You were never interviewed by the police at
6 that time, were you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. So you didn't go to the funeral, I
9 guess Brian did?
10 A. It must have been Brian. It wasn't me.
11 Q. All right. Sometime in I guess it would have
12 been December of '96, it might have been before then,
13 this Lisa McPherson matter re-erupted probably in
14 result of Dr. Woods' findings?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Prior to that have you ever seen Lisa's PC
17 folder?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you know where it was?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where is -- where are everybody's PC folders
22 kept in Clearwater?
23 A. Generally PC folders are kept in a warehouse.
24 Q. Okay. Were you aware of Mr. Kartuzinski's
25 having possession of them at any time?
Page 3939 Image
32
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you aware of Brian Anderson having
3 possession of them at any time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you aware of Annie Mora having
6 possession of them at any time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Up until today?
9 A. No. That's correct.
10 Q. So -- now, you know that Annie Mora had
11 possession of them at one time?
12 A. Well, no, I didn't know that specifically.
13 know that Annie Mora had -- I had asked Annie where the
14 pre-clear folders were.
15 Q. When was that?
16 A. When I returned in January.
17 Q. And what did she say?
18 A. And she told me that she had sent them or had
19 them sent to Los Angeles. Whether she physically had
20 the folders in her possession, I don't know, but she
21 told me that she had them sent to Los Angeles.
22 Q. She told you that in January of '96?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. That she had already sent Lisa McPherson's
25 pre-clear folders?
Page 3940 Image
33
1 A. (Nodding head.)
2 Q. Do you know how many of them there were?
3 A. No.
4 Q. But she had already boxed them up and sent
5 them to LA?
6 A. That's right, or she didn't have to have
7 necessarily done them herself but that, she had them
8 sent to Los Angeles.
9 Q. Okay. Who ordered that to be done?
10 A. I don't know, and I didn't actually ask.
11 Q. Why?
12 A. It wasn't particularly pertinent information.
13 Q. You're the legal officer in the OSA. Why
14 wouldn't that be pertinent? You don't know who ordered
15 those up?
16 A. No. No, I don't know who ordered it.
17 Q. Who does know the answer to that question?
18 A. I would think Annie would.
19 Q. Annie doesn't know the answer to that
20 question. She actually said your name.
21 A. I don't know who would know, because Annie --
22 if Annie was the one that sent them, Annie should know
23 the one who ordered them.
24 Q. You would think, and I think she did use your
25 name, so she's mistaken if she used your name in
Page 3941 Image
34
1 reference to ordering up those documents to send them
2 to LA?
3 MR. LAURO: Before you answer that, I
4 don't have a copy of the transcript.
5 MR. MCGARRY: I know.
6 MR. LAURO: I think it's --
7 MR. MCGARRY: I'm just asking her.
8 MR. LAURO: I think the reference from
9 Annie Mora was either Judy or Brian. I don't think she
10 was certain as to who. I could be wrong, but that's my
11 recollection of what her testimony was.
12 MR. MCGARRY: I think you're accurate on
13 her.
14 BY MR. MCGARRY:
15 Q. It could have been Brian or you. And you're
16 saying it wasn't you?
17 A. It wasn't me.
18 Q. And to the best of my recollection, Brian
19 said it wasn't him, so who does that -- who does that
20 leave?
21 A. I have no idea; I mean, you're asking me to
22 speculate on something when I wasn't present.
23 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm asking
24 you who might know the answer to my question.
25 A. The one who would be logical would be Annie,
Page 3942 Image
35
1 and if Annie and Brian don't know, then I'm stumped.
2 Q. Well, let me ask you further questions about
3 that area.
4 A. Sure.
5 Q. Why were they sent to LA? Why would
6 somebody's PC folder be sent to LA if -- if the person
7 lived here? She's dead. Why did it go to LA?
8 A. Well, that's actually pretty usual when you
9 have an occasion where a parishioner has obviously
10 gotten into some sort of trouble. The folders would be
11 reviewed.
12 Q. By who?
13 A. By somebody -- somebody from the -- one of
14 the senior officers who were in charge of the
15 ministerial actions for the church and that's out in
16 Los Angeles. That's pretty regular.
17 Q. And as a legal officer in Clearwater, the
18 head legal officer in OSA, you don't know who that was?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I'm talking today, right now, you --
21 A. I understand.
22 Q. -- don't know who the person is that has --
23 where are the PC files now?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 Q. You're the head legal officer. This is a
Page 3943 Image
36
1 legal matter. You don't know where the PC files are?
2 MR. LAURO: Time out. She hasn't been
3 the legal officer for over a year. She's been out of
4 that position for quite sometime.
5 MR. MCGARRY: She's still an OSA.
6 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.
7 MR. LAURO: No, she's not. You haven't
8 asked those questions. She's not an OSA. She hasn't
9 been there in over a year and she hasn't participated
10 in search for documents or anything of the kind, so you
11 may need to go back and clarify when she left OSA.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. Okay. Let's go back and let's pick up where
14 your attorney's indicated -- you got out of OSA when?
15 A. Well, I actually was removed from my position
16 in legal early December -- mid December --
17 Q. Of--
18 A. -- '96.
19 Q. -- '96?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And who took your place?
22 A. Well, it was primarily -- there was a number
23 of people that actually held my position, but Humberto,
24 as my direct senior, officially held my position.
25 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I just have a
Page 3944 Image
37
1 question. Are you positive it's 1996, the month after
2 Lisa dies or a year after Lisa dies?
3 MR. LAURO: December '96.
4 THE WITNESS: December '96.
5 SERGEANT ANDREWS: December '96, a year
6 after --
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay. That makes
9 more sense. I got it.
10 BY MR. MCGARRY:
11 Q. So nobody was given your title officially?
12 A. No. It was vacant.
13 Q. Why did you get removed from your post?
14 A. Primarily at the time it was because of an
15 incident that had occurred with the media contacts
16 after the release of the autopsy report.
17 Q. And that would have been who, Brian Anderson
18 and --
19 A. No, Humberto.
20 Q. Humberto?
21 A. Humberto was my direct senior.
22 Q. Well, explain the media contacts you're
23 talking about. Let's -- give me that.
24 A. Okay. There was -- I don't remember which
25 reporter. There was some reporter that had called and
Page 3945 Image
38
1 contacted someone in our office concerning the release
2 of medical reports or the autopsy report, and at that
3 time they were printing for an article that was either
4 that day or the next day or somewhere thereabouts. I
5 guess it must have been the next day. It was that
6 specific day that I was removed, and it was due to
7 basically insufficient handling on preventing it from
8 the point of having media contact on that matter.
9 Q. All right. Was there a committee of evidence
10 on that?
11 A. Much later, yes.
12 Q. In reference to that issue?
13 A. That issue, but actually it was kind of a
14 broader picture than that, other legal matters as well.
15 Q. All right. Well, what position did you go to
16 from there, from the OSA office?
17 A. Well, at that time I was kind of used as a
18 runner within the office, runner being taking things
19 back and forth to attorneys or even just within, you
20 know, general church duties, not even specifically
21 somebody in the legal department. That was the case
22 until the end of January '97. At the end of January
23 '97 I was sent out to Los Angeles for some correction.
24 Q. What does that mean, correction?
25 A. Well, correction meaning, you know, you've
Page 3946 Image
39
1 got a person who's made mistakes and needs to be
2 corrected within our own system. There's certain
3 actions that can be taken to remedy a staff member
4 who's not doing well.
5 Q. Did you handle anything in reference to Lisa
6 McPherson while you were in LA?
7 A. LA, no.
8 Q. Did you ever see any documents?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever see any PC folders?
11 A. No. That isn't what I was doing out there.
12 Q. So you're not aware of your post being
13 filled? Is your post filled now, the legal --
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And who's that?
16 A. That's by Glenn Stilo.
17 Q. Stilo has it?
18 A. (Nodding head.) .
19 Q. And have you -- and have you talked to Glenn
20 Stilo about this matter, this Lisa McPherson matter?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Not at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Are you aware that Glenn Stilo was kind of
25 doing a document search in reference to some reports
Page 3947 Image
40
1 that we suspect are missing from Lisa's PC folder? Are
2 you aware that he was doing that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When's the last time you've seen Glenn Stilo?
5 A. This morning.
6 Q. Oh, he dropped you off here this morning?
7 A. Exactly.
8 Q. And you're trying to tell me that now he's --
9 to this day you've never talked about Lisa McPherson's
10 case with him?
11 A. No. I discussed it with my attorney in
12 preparation for this meeting.
13 Q. I understand that. And as well as Sandy
14 Weinberg and Lee Fugate, correct?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Previously, earlier?
17 A. Previously.
18 Q. This summer?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. So he is now -- what -- give me his title
21 exactly, Glenn Stilo's position.
22 A. He's the legal officer for Flag, Flag Service
23 Org.
24 Q. And when did he take that position?
25 A. I actually don't know, but it would have been
Page 3948 Image
41
1 sometime in the spring of '97, I would think.
2 Q. And you're not aware, because you're not in
3 OSA now, nor privy to any of the Lisa McPherson talk,
4 where the PC folder is?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. To this -- I mean, who knows where the PC
7 folder is right now?
8 A. I have no idea who knows.
9 Q. So in February of this year, of 1997, you
10 were not in OSA -- at the OSA?
11 A. No. I was in Los Angeles.
12 Q. Did everybody in the OSA know that? I mean,
13 I've talked to everybody in this OSA and this is the
14 first time I've heard that you weren't the legal
15 officer, really, for quite sometime.
16 A. I would have thought they would know about
17 that.
18 Q. Well--
19 A. Maybe they thought I was.
20 Q. A lot of people give you credit that I've
21 talked to for doing a lot of things, and, of course,
22 now you are denying any participation practically
23 whatsoever in the Lisa McPherson case.
24 MR. LAURO: Wait, wait, wait. That's a
25 little bit of an overstatement, because I don't think
Page 3949 Image
42
1 you've asked certain questions..
2 MR. MCGARRY: In reference to records.
3 MR. LAURO: In reference to collection
4 of records, I think that's a fair statement.
5 BY MR. MCGARRY:
6 Q. Right. In reference to the records you're
7 out of the loop?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Other than knowing that Annie Mora sent them
10 to LA? You knew that?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. But you don't know why she sent them or who
13 asked for them or who ordered that?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Are you aware who the person is that actually
16 went through the PC folder and determined what was
17 caretaker notes and what wasn't?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you ever met Kathy O'Gorman in this
20 case? Have you ever met Kathy O'Gorman, period?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And where does she reside, California?
23 A. As far as I know, California.
24 Q. Okay. Did you ever talk to her about the
25 Lisa McPherson case?
Page 3950 Image
43
1 A. No.
2 Q. How about Becky Ellenberg?
3 A. I don't know who that is.
4 Q. Okay. How about Ken Long?
5 A. I did have a conversation with Ken Long, not
6 specifically about this case. Explain a little bit on
7 that point. I had mentioned that on December 5th when
8 I found out about Lisa McPherson and her death, the
9 next morning I was scheduled to go to Italy. The
10 individual who was making the arrangements for me to go
11 to Italy was Ken Long. I had actually wanted to stay
12 and work on Lisa McPherson instead of going to Italy,
13 and I contacted Ken Long in terms of mentioning that
14 she had died, but at that time I didn't have very many
15 specifics, and I requested for my -- to be able to
16 delay my trip to Italy, and he said no, so that was the
17 conversation I had regarding Lisa McPherson. It wasn't
18 concerning the case at that time. Obviously, nothing
19 had happened.
20 Q. So you've never personally seen Lisa's PC
21 folder?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How about any other documents in reference to
24 Lisa McPherson's stay at the hotel during those two
25 weeks? Annie Mora's document, did you ever see that
Page 3951 Image
44
1 summary, three-page summary?
2 A. Yes, I did see that.
3 Q. Okay. When was that?
4 A. That was in -- when I came back in January
5 '97 -- '96, sorry.
6 Q. She showed you that?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Did you ever talk to Bennetta Slaughter about
9 this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know who Bennetta Slaughter is?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. How do you know her?
14 A. I know her. She's quite an active
15 $©ientologist in public relations activities.
16 MR. LAURO: Mark, you may have asked
17 this question and then asked another question at the
18 same time. I think you asked one broad question about
19 any documents and then you went onto a specific
20 document, so I don't know if you're still at that
21 pending question --
22 MR. MCGARRY: Yeah.
23 MR. LAURO: -- on all documents that
24 Judy may have had contact with.
25
Page 3952 Image
45
1 BY MR. MCGARRY:
2 Q. Other documents other than this one?
3 A. In January I saw that document plus there
4 were some handwritten notes that were done by some of
5 the staff members who were interviewed in December.
6 Q. Handwritten notes?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. And who provided those to you?
9 A. Well, it was either Annie -- Annie or Brian,
10 and it was in a file that was given to me when I came
11 back and, you know, what I could review concerning the
12 Lisa McPherson matter.
13 Q. They were written in hand and they weren't
14 typed, right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And they were summaries from caretakers in
17 reference to what they had observed, the ongoings of
18 Lisa?
19 MR. LAURO: No.
20 THE WITNESS: No, not caretakers.
21 BY MR. MCGARRY:
22 Q. Oh, who?
23 A. There was -- the ones I specifically recall
24 is Alain Kartuzinski and Laura Arrunada.
25 Q. She's a caretaker.
Page 3953 Image
46
1 MR. LAURO: Yeah, but these relate to, I
2 think, something else.
3 THE WITNESS: They weren't related to
4 that.
5 MR. LAURO: Go ahead. You explain.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm thinking of
7 contents. It was specifically relating to her
8 interview with -- I believe there was a police officer
9 that came to the Hacienda or something thereabouts.
10 There were some -- there were specific debriefs of the
11 questions and responses concerning those specific
12 interviews. That's what they were.
13 BY MR. MCGARRY:
14 Q. And who -- let's go over the people. Alain
15 Kartuzinski?
16 A. Alain, Laura, and I believe also -- I'm
17 pretty sure it was also Janice.
18 Q. Would they have been handwritten notes that
19 they were requested to do by a security guard or by a
20 Clearwater police officer or in reference to -- do you
21 know which one's which?
22 A. Well, it wouldn't have been a police officer.
23 It would have been someone internal for the purpose of
24 providing church counsel with information about what
25 occurred in these interviews.
Page 3954 Image
47
1 Q. So those --
2 MR. LAURO: Wait, wait. I'm confused.
3 You need to clarify that. Did -- did these notes
4 relate to interviews conducted by a police officer or
5 interviews conducted by an internal security person?
6 THE WITNESS: No, no, by a police
7 officer.
8 MR. LAURO: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: There were meetings that
10 had occurred with the police officers.
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. Oh, all right. See, the confusion lies in
13 some areas of -- I have information that one of the
14 security people at the church requested Greenwood,
15 Arrunada and Johnson do a summary of their trip to the
16 hospital, okay?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And they've all indicated that they did those
19 summaries and turned them into the security
20 headquarters down there in the parking garage.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Those are missing.
23 A. I see.
24 Q. We're not talking about those? You're not
25 talking about those?
Page 3955 Image
48
1 A. No, I'm not talking about those. Paul
2 Greenwood was one of them, was one of the other ones,
3 and it was basically summaries of the interviews that
4 they had with the police officers.
5 Q. With these guys, Clearwater Police
6 Department?
7 A. Yeah. In the summaries they didn't say who
8 from the police department, but that's correct. It was
9 police officers.
10 Q. All right. Okay. How about the summaries
11 that Marcus Corinno did, did you ever see those?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you aware that Brian Anderson indicated
14 that he -- were you privy to the information that Brian
15 Anderson destroyed a lot of caretaker's notes in
16 reference to their meeting with Marcus Corinno?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. LAURO: There's one other contact
20 with documents that I think she needs to explain
21 before --
22 MR. MCGARRY: All right.
23 MR. LAURO: -- in full answer to that
24 one question, so --
25 THE WITNESS: What was the -- I thought
Page 3956 Image
49
1 the -- what was the specific question on this one?
2 thought I answered it.
3 MR. LAURO: The question was what --
4 MR. MCGARRY: There's a lot of --
5 MR. LAURO: What contact you had with
6 any Lisa McPherson documents, and that --
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 MR. LAURO: -- question needs to be
9 fully answered.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. We talked about Annie Mora's documents, we
13 talked about those documents that you saw that
14 Greenwood, Mora and Arrunada wrote.
15 A. That was in January. There was a later time
16 period, and I think it was March, April, sometime
17 around there -- that wasn't a document. That was in --
18 I was asked to prepare a transcript of some interviews
19 that were done with the police department of which I
20 did do the transcript. This was at the request of my
21 attorney, and that was obviously a document after I
22 had --
23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. -- you know, created it.
25 Q. A transcript of your interview of the people
Page 3957 Image
50
1 that --
2 A. Transcript of interviews that were done with
3 the police department in, I think it was either March,
4 April or May. I forget which one occurred when, but
5 there were several interviews that were done.
6 Q. March, April or May of --
7 A. Of '96.
8 Q. -- '96?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Who were those people?
11 A. Janice, Alain, Judy Goldsberry-Weber. There
12 were others done, but those were the three I typed.
13 Q. How did you get the information from them,
14 writing it or from them telling you?
15 A. No, it was from my attorney.
16 Q. No. You made summaries for your attorney or
17 for the attorney?
18 A. No. I transcribed the tape from my attorney.
19 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Bob Johnson was --
20 MR. MCGARRY: I got it.
21 SERGEANT ANDREWS: -- present during the
22 interviews and he ran a tape and I ran a tape, so we
23 had a typed conversation.
24 THE WITNESS: I created those documents
25 and proofread them and that sort of thing.
Page 3958 Image
51
1 MR. MCGARRY: All right. Well, that
2 clears it up for me. Thanks.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. When did Ben Shaw arrive?
5 A. I think it was December '96.
6 Q. And what is his position?
7 A. His position currently you mean?
8 Q. Uh-huh.
9 A. He's the commanding officer for the Office of
10 Special Affairs at Flag.
11 Q. Whose position did he take?
12 A. He took Humberto's position.
13 Q. Well, who enjoys Brian Anderson's old
14 position?
15 A. Humberto did. Brian was replaced in summer
16 of '96.
17 Q. By Humberto?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And currently where is Humberto --
20 A. He's --
21 Q. -- right now?
22 A. Where is he located?
23 Q. No. What's his title?
24 A. Oh, he's the social reform officer.
25 Q. Right. And Ben Shaw's title currently?
Page 3959 Image
52
1 A. Commanding officer.
2 Q. Brian Anderson's old position, formerly
3 Humberto's?
4 A. Yeah, formerly -- yeah, two positions ago.
Q. Who's the person in charge from the church --
6 who's the point man from the church on the Lisa
7 McPherson case right now?
8 A. That would be the legal officer, so it would
9 be Glenn, Glenn Stilo.
10 Q. So he's the person if there's a question a
11 lawyer has -- I'm not --
12 MR. LAURO: That's unfair, though,
13 because she's been out of it for, you know, over a
14 year, so she has not been dealing with any of the
15 lawyers, and I think she'd be just speculating on who's
16 dealing with the lawyers.
17 Q. Do you know Mary DeMoss?
18 A. No.
19 MR. MCGARRY: All right. I'm sure these
20 detectives have a couple questions for you.
21 MR. LAURO: Take about a five-minute
22 break? Would that be okay?
23 MR. MCGARRY: Yeah. I was just gonna
24 ask you if you wanted to take a break.
25 (Whereupon, a break was taken.)
Page 3960 Image
53
1 MR. LAURO: We need to clarify a couple
2 things on the record.
3 MR. MCGARRY: Okay.
4 MR. LAURO: If we're back on the record,
5 Mr. McGarry had asked a question about Ms. --
6 Mrs. Fontana's contact with documents, and there were
7 apparently two other instances where Mrs. Fontana may
8 have had contact with some documents relating to Lisa
9 McPherson. She's going to put that an the record.
10 MR. MCGARRY: All right.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was sometime, I
12 think, around -- it was either March, April, May '96
13 which I found an accordion file in -- somewhere in a
14 general files area in OSA which was actually a file
15 that Annie had had, and it was about -- maybe about two
16 inches -- two or three inches thick, and it had some
17 various reports in it. I didn't sit there and flip
18 through it, but the first couple pages I looked at were
19 caretaker reports, and what I did was I actually took
20 the file and brought it down to my attorney at that
21 time, Bob Johnson, and gave it over to him.
22 In terms of what the reports all were,
23 because of the fact I didn't read them, itemize them or
24 whatever, I can't actually tell you that. I can only
25 tell you that it was about two inches thick worth of
Page 3961 Image
54
1 documents, and a couple of them were caretaker reports,
2 but it definitely was not the entirety of it.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. Was this file -- where -- where exactly was
5 this file located?
6 A. In Annie's office.
7 MR. LAURO: You may want to tell
8 Mr. McGarry why you would be looking for documents at
9 that point.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I actually wasn't.
11 I was looking for something entirely different.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. What were you looking for?
14 A. I don't remember. It was something -- it
15 didn't even have to do with Lisa McPherson.
16 Q. Did you tell Annie that you removed a file
17 from her office?
18 A. Yeah. I said, "Annie, what are you doing
19 with this? I thought you said -- you told me you
20 didn't have any documents concerning Lisa McPherson
21 here", and she said, "Oh, I forgot about this one," and
22 so I took it to Bob Johnson.
23 Q. Two-inch thick?
24 A. Yeah. It was about -- yeah, about that
25 (indicating.)
Page 3962 Image
55
1 Q. And that would have been where in
2 relationship to the time that you told me that Annie
3 sent all those other documents to LA?
4 A. About four months after that.
5 Q. So it was four months after that you found
6 more documents in Annie Mora's office that didn't make
7 it to LA?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And Bob Johnson knew about that, because he
10 was sent those documents?
11 A. Well, he knew about that when I took them to
12 him, sure.
13 Q. Right. Why did you give them to him and not
14 send them out to LA with the rest of the stuff?
15 A. Because of the fact that he and I were
16 working on the McPherson matter.
17 Q. Well, do you see what my question is? Some
18 documents went to LA, some documents went to him.
19 A. Right. But I didn't send anything to LA.
20 And those were PC folders, which is not something that
21 would have gone to Bob Johnson anyway.
22 Q. What capacity were you acting in when you did
23 that?
24 A. As a person --
25 Q. What was your position?
Page 3963 Image
56
1 A. Legal officer.
2 Q. All right. And that's March --
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. -- of '96?
5 A. Well, it was either -- I don't remember if it
6 was March, April or May. It was somewhere within that
7 three-month time period. I don't remember the exact
8 sequence of the time period.
9 Q. And where was that in relationship to going
10 to LA and being gone for the summer?
11 A. Well, that's '97. We're talking about '96
12 right now. March, April, May.
13 Q. So you went to LA this -- this year?
14 A. That's right, in January '97, so it was
15 sometime around March, April, May '96.
16 Q. That you found a two-inch thick --
17 A. File.
18 Q. -- file folder containing Lisa McPherson's --
19 A. Actually, it wasn't a file folder. It was an
20 accordion file.
21 Q. Was it a PC file?
22 A. No.
23 Q. It was just a file? $
24 A. That's right. It was an accordion file.
25 Q. What did it say on the outside of the file?
Page 3964 Image
57
1 A. It didn't say anything. It was just like one
2 of these brown accordion files that are just brown,
3 and, you know, it didn't have a label on it
4 particularly.
5 Q. No label?
6 A. No, unlabeled.
7 Q. With information about caretakers notes at
8 least on the first few pages?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And that was in Annie Mora's office?
ii A. Right.
12 Q. Where in Annie Mora's office?
13 A. Let's see; I think it was in her filing
14 cabinet that I found it.
15 Q. And --
16 A. It was either a filing cabinet or a banker's
17 box. I don't remember which.
18 Q. And you -- you talked to Annie Mora about
19 that?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And what did you say?
22 A. I said, "I thought you didn't have any files
23 here. Do you have anything else?" And she said, "No."
24 Q. And you're saying after that's when
25 everything went to LA?
Page 3965 Image
58
1 MR. LAURO: No.
2 THE WITNESS: No, no.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. Before that? Before that everything went to
5 LA?
6 A. Yeah. The sequence was when I came back in
7 January --
8 Q. Of '96?
9 A. -- of '96 I asked Annie -- I was getting
10 information from Annie and Brian as to what had
11 occurred in my absence, what documents could I look at,
12 what was here. What I was given by Annie was just one
13 file folder with these few particles that I was telling
14 you about, these debriefs of the interviews with the
15 police department, et cetera.
16 Q. That was in January?
17 A. That was in January. She had said at that
18 time she had already sent folders out to Los Angeles
19 that had the PC folders in them, and I asked her was
20 there anything else and she said, "No. That's all I
21 remember is the PC folders." I said, "Okay. So you
22 don't have anything else here?" "No, I have nothing
23 else here."
24 Okay. So then I reviewed that one file that
25 I had. Two or three months or four months after that
Page 3966 Image
59
1 was when I found this accordion file that had these
2 reports in them or at least a couple pages of reports.
3 I do remember that one of the other things that was in
4 that file was that summary that you've got over there.
s Q. Uh-huh.
6 A. And I asked her, "Do you have any other
7 documents since you didn't mention this one earlier?"
8 And she said, "No, that's all I have. I forgot about
9 this." I said, "Okay." I took that file and I took it
10 to Bob Johnson that same day.
11 Q. Okay. Throughout all that transaction that
12 you had and interaction you had with Annie you were
13 still the legal officer, right?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. And throughout all that you didn't know who
16 ordered all the PC files to go to LA?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But Annie -- Annie didn't know either, right?
19 She was just directed by --
20 A. Annie -- Annie didn't remember very much
21 about it. I asked her, not specifically, who had
22 ordered it but where did she send them. She couldn't
23 remember exactly where she had sent them other than she
24 had sent them to Los Angeles.
25 Q. Not to a name or anything, just to LA?
Page 3967 Image
60
1 A. Right. She sent them to somebody in LA. She
2 couldn't remember who, and I asked her if she had an
3 itemization of what she sent, and she didn't have that
4 either.
5 Q. And yet you sent the remainder of the stuff
6 that you found to Bob Johnson?
7 A. Well, I actually hand-delivered them. I
8 didn't send them.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. I actually drove them to Bob Johnson that
11 day, yeah.
12 Q. All right. Where are those documents now?
13 A. I don't know where they are now. All I can
14 say is that I took them to Bob Johnson and Bob Johnson
15 at that time, I believe, gave them to somebody else who
16 was here from Los Angeles, Kurt Wieland.
17 Q. Who is he?
18 A. Well, he's a staff member at the Office of
19 Special Affairs International, and I don't know what
20 actually his current position is.
21 Q. So you did know -- so you do know who some
22 documents went to in LA, this guy Wieland, at least the
23 ones from Bob Johnson's --
24 A. Well, that's what Bob told me. He told me
25 that he gave them to Kurt.
Page 3968 Image
61
1 Q. He did?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. When did he tell you that?
4 A. The day that I gave them to him or the day
5 after.
6 Q. How could he do that if you just gave it to
7 him?
8 A. Because we were all in the office together.
9 Q. You gave Bob Johnson the documents?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. He says I'm giving them to so and so --
12 A. Right.
13 Q. -- in California?
14 A. Exactly. Who -- he was also there present in
15 the office at the time.
16 Q. Oh.
17 A. We were all sitting there in the office.
18 Q. So you were having a meeting with some LA
19 people?
20 A. We were all in the office. He was having a
21 meeting -- they were having a meeting about something
22 else. I was having a meeting with Bob about something
23 else, and he said --
24 Q. Unrelated to Lisa McPherson?
25 A. That's right.
Page 3969 Image
62
1 Q. And you just showed up with some expando file
2 with Lisa McPherson's stuff?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And said oh, by the way, here's some Lisa
5 McPherson stuff? And this guy Wieland said oh, I'll
6 take those?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How'd that go?
9 A. No. Here's what occurred. I drove down to
10 Tampa and gave the documents to Bob Johnson. Kurt
11 Wieland was already separately meeting with him. I
12 said, "Here" --
13 Q. Is this totally coincidental -- coincidence
14 that you happened to --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- hit this thing at the same time Bob
17 Johnson's having this meeting with this Scientologist
18 from California?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. He happened to be down here because it was
22 around the time when some major events were going on.
23 When there is a major event going on we have a lot of
24 people come down to Clearwater.
25 Q. Right.
Page 3970 Image
63
1 A. That's why I say sometime in March, April or
2 May -- those are our two major event Periods, March and
3 May. Sometime during that period he was down in the
4 office. I gave the accordion file to Bob Johnson.
5 Kurt Wieland wasn't there when I gave the file to Bob
6 Johnson. He was in the general office, but, I mean, he
7 wasn't standing right there, and then I think it was
8 the next day that Bob in another conversation about
9 something totally different said, "Oh, I gave the file
10 over to Kurt when he was here."
11 Q. So he took the file?
12 A. That's right. That's what Bob told me.
13 Q. And it's your impression that that file
14 contained caretaker's notes but not all the caretaker's
15 notes?
16 A. Well, I don't know how many caretaker notes
17 there are going to be, but there wasn't very many of
18 them. There was only just a couple of them. The rest
19 of the file had some other kind of things in them.
20 Q. So--
21 A. I think it was interview notes, transcripts.
22 Q. So that means there were two separate files
23 floating around with different sets of caretaker notes
24 in them, at least two sets of files, one PC file and
25 one file with no name on it?
Page 3971 Image
64
1 A. Must -- well, I can't say anything about the
2 PC folders, whether they had caretaker notes in them or
3 not.
4 Q. Well, we've already heard people talk about
5 those. So let me ask you this: Were there this many
6 caretaker notes in there (indicating?)
7 A. No. No, there wasn't.
8 Q. How do you know they were caretaker notes
9 that you were looking at?
10 A. Because it said something on the top and
11 indicated that they were caretaker notes.
12 Q. Like what?
13 A. Like Report or Daily Report or something like
14 that, and then like the first paragraph or so was
15 concerning Lisa.
16 Q. Were they similar to these (indicating?)
17 A. No.
18 Q. Not similar to these (indicating?)
19 A. Well, let me look through. them here. It was
20 more like this kind of stuff (indicating.) This may
21 have been a couple of them. Looks like a couple -- it
22 was something more like this kind of a report
23 (indicating.)
24 Q. Do you recall who the author of the report
25 was?
Page 3972 Image
65
1 A. No. See, like I didn't sit there and read
2 the whole thing. If you just look at this, it doesn't
3 actually -- well, this one does, but something like
4 this doesn't particularly indicate who the author of
5 the report was.
6 Q. So you didn't read them, you just sent them
7 off?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. I thought -- weren't you trying to brief
10 yourself with the documents in the case at this time,
11 because you were still the legal officer at that
12 particular time?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. But you didn't read the documents, you just
15 sent them forth?
16 A. (Nodding head.)
17 Q. You didn't discuss the documents with the
18 lawyer at the time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Whose job would it have been -- I mean, who
21 was he dealing with if it wasn't you at that time? You
22 were the legal officer.
23 A. That's true. He would normally have
24 discussed them with me. He wanted to read them first
25 and, you know, get back to me on it.
Page 3973 Image
66
1 Q. And he didn't?
2 A. And that's why we had the subsequent
3 conversation about, you know, "Well, what came up in
4 the documents?" And he said, "Well, I gave them to
5 Kurt Wieland."
6 Q. Did you discuss with him where the other
7 documents were that pertained to the caretaker's notes,
8 if you remember? I mean --
9 MR. LAURO: Now you're getting into
10 attorney/client issues in terms of what was discussed
11 with Johnson.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. Well, did you have a conversation with him in
14 reference to the documents other than the ones you
15 handed to him? Not what you said just if you had a
16 conversation with him.
17 MR. LAURO: Without disclosing the
18 exact --
19 THE WITNESS: Contents.
20 MR. LAURO: -- contents.
21 BY MR. MCGARRY:
22 Q. Did you have a conversation with him about
23 the documents --
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- that got sent to LA?
Page 3974 Image
67
1 A. That was the conversation I had with him
2 about the documents that were sent to LA.
3 Q. But these documents weren't all the
4 documents, right?
5 A. That's --
6 Q. These weren't all the caretaker's notes?
7 A. I don't know that they were or they weren't.
8 Q. Well, I just showed you a stack.
9 A. Right. Well, you're telling me that now. At
10 that time I didn't know that there was caretaker
11 reports at all other than the ones that I had seen in
12 there.
13 Q. Did you not investigate to see how many
14 caretaker notes there were available?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who -- who would do that if it wasn't you in
17 the legal department?
18 A. Well, generally Annie Mora. would.
19 Q. Annie Mora did that?
20 A. I said generally that would be something that
21 Annie Mora would do. Whether she did that or not, I
22 don't know.
23 Q. Did Annie explain to you why she did not send
24 those documents with the other documents to LA as she
25 did -- you know, sent the previous documents?
Page 3975 Image
68
1 A. She didn't have a very good explanation for
2 that.
3 Q. What explanation was that?
4 A. Just that she didn't notice them before
5 because it wasn't a labeled file.
6 Q. Well, who -- who would have gone through them
7 to put them in two separate files? My understanding is
8 that all these things went to Alain Kartuzinski and all
9 these documents went into the PC folder. This
10 apparently was not a PC folder, correct?
11 A. No, definitely not a PC folder.
12 Q. It was not a PC folder?
13 A. No. PC folders have very distinguishable
14 characteristics.
15 Q. All right. So did you go through -- you said
16 there was two inches of material in that file, right?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. So if it wasn't auditing or a PC folder, then
19 that's two inches of caretaker notes that you were
20 looking at?
21 A. No. I said that there weren't two inches of
22 caretaker notes.
23 Q. Okay. What were the rest of the notes?
24 A. There was the earlier debriefs that I
25 mentioned, the handwritten debriefs of the meetings
Page 3976 Image
69
1 with Clearwater Police Department officers in December
2 of '95.
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. There was that write-up that Annie Mora had
5 written, and I don't remember what else there was.
6 Q. So do you know where that file is right now?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Who would?
9 A. Probably. Kurt Wieland or Bob Johnson.
10 MR. MCGARRY: Bob Johnson's not working
11 on this anymore, I don't believe. Correct me if I'm
12 wrong. He's not --
13 MR. LAURO: I don't believe he's
14 representing the church, not on this matter. I think
15 he might be representing the church on other matters
16 but not on this matter.
17 MR. MCGARRY: Okay. Well, these guys
18 have some questions for you.
19 MR. LAURO: And there's one other --
20 MR. MCGARRY: Oh, one other document.
21 THE WITNESS: Oh, that's right. Then
22 the other occasion that I had to see a document was
23 when I was in Los Angeles, and this was -- I think it
24 was around March or so '97. I was not, you know,
25 working at the Office of Special Affairs at that time
Page 3977 Image
70
1 anymore, but when I was out there on my program and
2 actually I was doing some renovations work out there, I
3 was called by Elliott Ableson who's an attorney for the
4 Church of Scientology International, and Elliott had
5 called me to find out if I had ever seen a document
6 that had been put together by Marcus Corinno, and he
7 just, you know, held it up for me. And it looked
8 similar to -- I think you may have showed me this
9 document that Marcus had done. He asked me if I had
10 ever seen it, and I skimmed through it and saw that it
11 had various summaries of, you know, the caretakers, and
12 I said no, I had never seen it before, and he said
13 so -- let me backtrack.
14 I think -- actually, at that time I don't
15 think it was known that it was Marcus Corinno. I later
16 found out that it was Marcus Corinno's, and he said,
17 "Have you ever seen this before?" and I said, "No." He
18 said, "Do you have any idea who compiled this?" and I
19 said, "No." And that was pretty much the sum total of
20 it, and it was two or three pages long.
21 BY MR. MCGARRY:
22 Q. And that was the only work you did on Lisa
23 McPherson while in LA?
24 A. Well, that wasn't actually doing work on it,
25 but there was that interview.
Page 3978 Image
71
1 Q. Any involvement --
2 A. And then I was also interviewed after that by
3 Sandy Weinberg, and I think that was April or May '97,
4 Sandy and Lee Fugate.
5 MR. MCGARRY: All right. Okay. Lee or
6 Wayne?
7 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Go ahead, Wayne.
8 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I'm crossing some of
9 them off you've already answered.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
12 Q. You mentioned that you were not familiar at
13 all on why Lisa was staying at the Fort Harrison Hotel,
14 or did you ever answer that? I'm not too sure. I
15 missed that.
16 A. I think I did. I think I said that my
17 understanding was she requested to go to the Fort
18 Harrison.
19 Q. Okay. To stay?
20 A. Right, to stay.
21 Q. Okay. Have you ever been involved in an
22 isolation watch or an introspection run-down before?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. Were you familiar with those terms and
25 that -- that tech --
Page 3979 Image
73
1 Goldsberry-Weber ever call you and you said no, and now
2 we're qualifying to Lisa and now we're going to qualify
3 to what part of Lisa. I think the first question, did
4 Judy Goldsberry-Weber ever call you was a pretty simple
5 question. I mean, I got a no; but now I'm not getting
6 a no.
7 MR. LAURO: I don't remember that
8 question being asked by Mark.
9 MR. MCGARRY: Let's start over with the
10 question.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm confused now.
12 MR. MCGARRY: I think he wants to know
13 whether she called you in reference to Lisa McPherson.
14 Have you ever talked to her about other matters?
15 THE WITNESS: Oh, sure. Tons of times.
16 MR. MCGARRY: That clears it up. He
17 to know whether or not you ever talked to her
18 about Lisa.
19 MR. LAURO: What time frame?
20 MR. MCGARRY: She only knew Lisa when
21 she was staying at the hotel.
22 MR. LAURO: But it could have been after
23 the death, before the death. I mean, at any time did
24 you talk to Judy Goldsberry-Weber concerning Lisa
25 McPherson?
Page 3980 Image
74
1 THE WITNESS: Well, yes. There was a
2 time right before her interview. I think it was
3 like -- I don't remember. Again, I don't remember if
4 it's March, April or May of '96 Judy was interviewed.
5 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And being the liaison to church counsel, I
8 did have conversations about Judy coming in and meeting
9 with church counsel concerning her upcoming interview.
10 Q. And what were those conversations about?
11 A. Between me and her? Like in terms of what
12 time the attorney was gonna be there and, you know,
13 coordinating what she needed to do so that she could
14 come out of the area that she was working. You know,
15 more like coordination of logistics, meeting times,
16 places, that sort of thing.
17 Q. Did you ever discuss the testimony of what
18 she was going to testify to or talk to?
19 A. Personally, no. I was present with the
20 attorney assisting the attorney when she was discussing
21 the preparation for her meeting.
22 Q. And this was prior to her coming in and
23 talking to the police?
24 A. That's right. That was like within a day or
25 so, I think.
Page 3981 Image
75
1 Q. All right. Tell me about that, the
2 conversation.
3 MR. LAURO: Well, that's privileged.
4 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Not to her. She's
s not an attorney, and she's present in the -- in the
6 room.
7 MR. LAURO: She's acting under the
8 direction of her lawyer. It's a privileged
9 conversation.
10 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I disagree, Mark.
11 MR. MCGARRY: This is a conversation --
12 I'm confused here -- you had with Judy and who else?
13 THE WITNESS: Bob Johnson.
14 MR. LAURO: It's not a conversation.
15 It's Bob Johnson interviewing Judy Goldsberry-Weber --
16 THE WITNESS: That's right.
17 MR. LAURO: -- that Judy is sitting in
18 and assisting Bob Johnson in conducting that interview.
19 THE WITNESS: That's right.
20 MR. MCGARRY: If she's there, how can it
21 be privileged?
22 MR. LAURO: Because she's assisting the
23 lawyer.
24 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Absolutely not.
25 That's absolutely not. If she's sitting there during a
Page 3982 Image
76
1 confession to a priest that privilege to her does not
2 extend, and I want her to answer the question as to
3 what Judy Goldsberry-Weber and Johnson talked about.
4 MR. LAURO: You'll have to take that up
5 with the judge.
6 MR. MCGARRY: Is that a problem area,
7 what Judy said? Why don't you discuss it with her and
8 see if it's a problem area?
9 MR. LAURO: I don't think it is a
10 problem area.
11 MR. MCGARRY: You're just trying to
12 assert the privilege. We can avoid going to the judge
13 if you will see if that's information that's
14 privileged. If it's not -- I assume it has something
15 to do with Judy telling the lawyer -- I mean, he's just
16 debriefing her, right? He's not representing Judy.
17 He's not representing this person, correct?
18 MR. LAURO: Well what I'm saying -- I
19 mean, I can't waive a privilege on behalf of an
20 institution or a church organization. That's something
21 that -- if the church tells you that they have no
22 problems with that conversation being revealed, then I
23 have no problem with that conversation being revealed,
24 but it seems to me that, as a lawyer, it's a
25 conversation that another lawyer is having with a
Page 3983 Image
77
1 representative of an organization that would normally
2 be covered by the attorney/client privilege. I think
3 we all agree on that.
4 MR. MCGARRY: Uh-huh.
5 MR. LAURO: And to the extent that Judy
6 is acting in the capacity of assisting that lawyer,
7 then that's privileged. For example, when I interview
8 a witness I often have my secretary sit in. Now, she's
9 not a lawyer. I'm not representing her, but that
10 conversation is privileged because that secretary's
11 assisting me, so, you know, I think any judge -- any
12 judge would agree that it's a privileged conversation
13 but for a waiver.
14 BY MR. MCGARRY:
15 Q. Did -- all right. Is that the only time you
16 had a conversation with Judy Goldsberry-Weber about the
17 Lisa McPherson incident?
18 A. That's right, other than, you know, the time
19 about telling her when to show up for her attorney
20 meeting and that sort of thing.
21 Q. She didn't call you during this week?
22 A. You mean the week of her death?
23 Q. Yeah.
24 A. No.
25 Q. The week of her stay at the hotel.
Page 3984 Image
78
1 A. No.
2 Q. Judy Goldsberry-Weber never called you?
3 A. No.
4 MR. MCGARRY: Okay. That's the ultimate
5 question you were going to ask, right?
6 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
7 Q. Yeah. Judy Goldsberry-Weber under oath says
8 she actually called you more than twice and wanted to
9 know what was happening with Lisa?
10 A. (Shaking head.)
11 Q. That didn't happen?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. What changes has the church made in
14 reference to the medical liaison office position since
15 Lisa has died?
16 A. Let me think back here. December '95 --
17 frankly, I don't remember if Janice was there in
18 December of '95 or she wasn't there in December of '95.
19 There was Janice, there was Emma.
20 Q. Well, let me maybe rephrase it. What
21 organizational changes has the church -- not personnel
22 changes.
23 A. Oh.
24 Q. What organizational changes has the church
25 made in reference to the MLO office since the Lisa
Page 3985 Image
79
1 McPherson incident?
2 A. I don't really recall any organizational
3 changes.
4 Q. Okay.
S A. There was personnel changes, but I don't
6 remember specifically which months or whether they
7 occurred slightly before, slightly after, whatever.
8 Q. Okay. What was the chain of command in the
9 office of OSA from the time that Lisa went to Morton
10 Plant, you know, that she became involved with the
11 Cabanas all through her death? Let's limit it to
12 that, because we had a lot of personnel changes, but
13 what was the chain of command of who was in charge of
14 who then?
15 A. Brian was in charge of the whole office.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. He had two junior -- well, he had several
18 juniors. I was his direct junior, Humberto was his
19 direct junior, different sections. Annie was his
20 junior, different section.
21 Q. Okay. Was Annie your junior?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So she was equal to you and Humberto?
24 A. That's right but in a different section.
25 Q. And what section would that be, Annie?
Page 3986 Image
80
1 A. She was involved with internal matters of
2 security or anything -- that's probably not -- security
3 isn't a very good term in the way you would use it, but
4 anything that involves the internal matters of the
5 church that could have an effect on external
6 situations.
7 Q. Okay. Is there any -- what about Mary Story?
8 She was in an equal line with you guys at the time or
9 is she above you guys?
10 A. No. At that time she was equal.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. She was in public relations.
13 Q. Now, again, we're back to other testimony,
14 and I apologize for this, but that's the only way I can
15 clear it up. There's been testimony by your husband,
16 Humberto --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. -- Brian Anderson and Annie Mora that Lisa's
19 approximately seven PC folders along with other folders
20 were in a banker's box and located in your office in
21 May and June of 1996, yet you testified today that
22 in -- when you returned on January 10th in 1996 that
23 Annie had already sent all these folders to Los
24 Angeles.
25 A. Uh-huh.
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81
1 Q. Now, can we clear that up with your testimony
2 today?
3 A. I can only tell you what I know. I've never
4 seen her PC folders, and I can just tell you that
5 that' s what she answered when I asked her the question
6 of where the PC folders went.
7 Q. Okay. So it's your testimony today that
8 there were no PC folders of Lisa's or her folders in
9 OSA or your office in May or June of 1996 --
10 A. That's --
11 Q. -- they had already been sent to Los Angeles?
12 A. That's what I had been informed, and I had no
13 reason to think otherwise, because I never saw them.
14 Q. Okay. Annie Mora testified that you told her
15 to send the folders or the banker's box and ship it to
16 Los Angeles.
17 MR. LAURO: Time out. The testimony
18 was, I believe, of Annie Mora that she's not sure
19 whether it was Judy or Brian.
20 SERGEANT ANDREWS: She was sure on who
21 asked her to send them. She wasn't sure on a couple of
22 the other questions of who asked her.
23 MR. MCGARRY: I'm not sure --
24 MR. LAURO: If you want to show me the
25 testimony, maybe we can take a look at it.
Page 3988 Image
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1 THE WITNESS: Regardless of what Annie
2 testified, that's all I can tell you was exactly what I
3 already said.
4 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
5 Q. Was it very unusual for the folders to go to
6 Los Angeles?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why not?
9 A. Well, it was what I was describing earlier.
10 When you have a situation with a parishioner who has
11 ended up in a situation that's not optimum, it would be
12 normal operating basis to ship the folders to Los
13 Angeles where they would be reviewed by a senior case
14 counselor.
15 Q. And what office would that be shipped to?
16 A. Well, usually they would be -- as a liaison
17 for execution purposes, they would be sent by -- either
18 directly to office of senior -- it's called Senior Case
19 Supervisor International, which is in Los Angeles, and
20 if we received a request, we would get it executed in
21 that framework.
22 Q. Okay. So would it be very unusual for the
23 folders to be sent to OSA, Int. --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- in Los Angeles?
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1 A. Not at all. Not as a relay point.
2 Q. So OSA, Int. would then tell the Senior Case
3 Supervisor International that the folders were there
4 and he's going to do what with them?
5 A. They would look over the folders for
6 information concerning what happened with the
7 parishioner.
8 Q. The reason you were moved -- removed from the
9 post in December of 1996, you said it was because of
10 dealings with the press. Was that because of that
11 press release that was faxed to all of the news
12 stations and the TV -- the newspapers and the TV
13 stations?
14 A. Well, no. It was -- it was -- it was
15 probably prior to a press release. I don't know
16 specifically about a press release. What I know about
17 is the contact that I think was by Tom Tobin. I'm not
18 clear, because there was a number of media contacts at
19 that time going on concerning the release of the
20 autopsy report.
21 Q. Explain that to me. I'm not sure -- I'm not
22 sure why you would lose a prestigious post, because
23 you -- you didn't have the copy of the --
24 A. The press release.
25 Q. -- the autopsy report to release, did you?
Page 3990 Image
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1 A. I don't think we had it at that time.
2 Q. Okay. I'm still confused on why you lost
3 your post?
4 A. Well, it would be because of the fact that
5 there was an obvious case mishandling for it to get to
6 that point where it would become something that it was
7 of a media attention. That would be the reason.
8 Q. And that was your fault?
9 A. Sure.
10 MR. MCGARRY: Can I interject here?
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. My -- my question is is from talking with you
13 here today, you got your post removed unjustly, because
14 talking with you here today, you didn't -- you weren't
15 around to handle this situation. Is that essentially
16 true?
17 A. Well, I don't know how to answer that
18 question.
19 Q. The day after, Italy, then another trip, then
20 Boston, then LA. Completely out of the loop on the
21 Lisa McPherson thing?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Never seen her folders, never seen the --
24 excuse me, I should be more specific, the PC folders?
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. And yet you get blamed for screwing up the
2 Lisa McPherson media thing?
3 A. Well, okay. If you could actually backtrack
4 the entire situation, right, you could look at it from
5 the viewpoint that anything that would come to that
6 degree of a legal situation is ultimately my
7 responsibility whether, at the time, I did something
8 about it or not.
9 MR. MCGABRY: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 MR. MCGARRY: Wayne, I'm sorry to
12 interrupt you.
13 SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's all right.
14 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
15 Q. Are you familiar with the press release that
16 was faxed to the newspapers and the TV stations by
17 Brian Anderson and Bob Johnson? Were you involved in
18 that because you were helping Brian-- Bob Johnson?
19 A. To tell you the truth, there was so much
20 media flying about for the next three days I couldn't
21 tell you which press release went where and who and
22 whatever. I did help Brian send -- fax some documents
23 to different media, you know, which I would assume
24 would have been a press release, but I don't know which
25 came exactly which day.
Page 3992 Image
86
1 Q. Okay. So you're not sure whether you faxed
2 this press release out?
3 A. Yeah, because I don't know which press
4 release you're talking about.
5 Q. I only saw one that was faxed out from the
6 church. I guess everything else was handled verbally,
7 but there was only one written press release faxed out.
8 A. I guess I probably wasn't. I just don't
9 recall. Maybe it would be better to say that.
10 Q. Okay. Thanks. I'm a little confused. A
11 couple of times you talked about OSA Flag.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. I thought that in our investigation that OSA
14 was separate from Flag, that they were out on their own
15 and they were answering to OSA, Int., but yet you've
16 made several references. Now, what is that -- is that
17 simply because this office of OSA represents Flag
18 because Flag's here and that's the big service
19 organization or --
20 A. Well, conceptually, that's correct. The
21 Office of Special Affairs is part corporately of the
22 Flag Service Organization. It is -- you know, from
23 that viewpoint it is responsible for the corporate
24 matters of the Flag Service Organization which is in
25 Clearwater. It is administratively under the Office of
Page 3993 Image
87
1 Special Affairs International, so it would not take
2 orders from Flag Service Organization, so there is a
3 difference from the corporate position as opposed to an
4 administrative. Does that answer your question?
5 Q. Yeah, sort of. I just wanted to clear up
6 your reference to FLO all the time --
7 A. FSO.
8 Q. -- FSO when you were talking about Stilo and
9 Brian. What report -- apparently the church did some
10 type of investigation, their own investigation into
11 Lisa.
12 A. At what time period now?
13 Q. Well, I guess we'd have to say from the time
14 she died, okay, until just recently, because we're
15 still -- we're still removing people from their posts.
16 What documents do I ask for or subpoena to the church
17 to -- to look at this investigation that the church is
18 conducting?
19 MR. LAURO: I'm not sure I understand
20 the question.
21 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
22 Q. Okay. Maybe I can summarize it. Everybody
23 so far that had any kind of responsibility with Lisa
24 McPherson has been demoted, and that's a loose term,
25 "demoted." I know we use different vocabulary, but in
Page 3994 Image
88
1 my terms demoted including yourself, and we can name
2 them all, Weber, Brian Anderson, your husband. We'll
3 go on forever. Apparently that all came from an
4 internal investigation by the church. I mean, that --
5 A. I don't think so. I actually don't think
6 that that's a correct statement, and I'll just --
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. -- tell you a couple where I know that that's
9 not the case. Annie Mora hasn't been demoted. She's
10 been on the same position throughout the time period.
11 Brian Anderson's committee of evidence occurred
12 probably many, many, many months after the whole thing,
13 and actually wasn't even specifically on the situation
14 at all. My husband's didn't occur until a year, year
15 and a half later and also I don't think had anything to
16 do with this situation. Unless -- I'm not going to say
17 that I understand what they testified for.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. But there's like quite a bit of duration of
20 the time period between these incidents and the people
21 being removed from their positions. I don't know that
22 you could say that they were all removed according to
23 this, because if they were all going to be removed
24 according to this, they should have been removed in the
25 first two weeks, December of '95.
Page 3995 Image
89
1 Q. Not necessarily. Under your own testimony,
2 as the flap continued heads continued to roll --
3 A. Right.
4 Q. -- right?
s A. But I could have also been put back on my
6 position. There were, however, other things within my
7 position as legal officer that also weren't right.
8 Q. All right. I guess the question would be
9 what documents could I subpoena to either prove or
10 disprove that? What would those be?
11 A. I -- I don't know, because I don't know that
12 there was an actual investigation concerning this
13 matter.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. There wasn't.
16 Q. According to the tech and your knowledge of
17 the tech, what documents would they be? You're a legal
18 officer, and apparently you would handle these
19 previously, so you should know what -- I'm only
20 assuming, but you should know basically what the
21 reports are or what -- the titles of the reports for
22 those types of things.
23 A. There wouldn't be anything specific other
24 than an investigation. I mean, any reports concerning
25 the investigation would have to be a broad sort of a
Page 3996 Image
90
1 search question.
2 Q. Okay. I found it funny that -- that there
3 was a lot of energy placed in the debriefing of the
4 Scientology staff members that were interviewed by the
5 police. Why was that?
6 A. I don't think that there was a -- I don't
7 know about a lot of debriefing.
8 Q. Well--
9 A. What are you -- what are you referring to?
10 Q. I guess you were required to write a
11 transcript which was quite a lot of work. There were
12 also reports that you saw of handwritten debriefs by
13 Alain Kartuzinski, Laura Arrunada, Janice Johnson and
14 Paul Greenwood.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Now, why would that be?
17 A. Because the attorney would want to have the
18 information. They would be for the purposes of the
19 attorney who is taking over the case.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. The attorney I don't think was present in
22 those different meetings, so if he's going to represent
23 the church on the matter, he's going to have to know
24 what, sort of conversations had been given over to
25 different agencies.
Page 3997 Image
91
1 Q. So we would write a report in the Church of
2 Scientology to this attorney about the debriefs, but
3 then we wouldn't write a report about our specific
4 day-to-day contact with Lisa McPherson. I mean, those
5 things are missing. Nobody's ever said the attorney
6 said okay, Janice Johnson, write a report about your
7 daily contact with Lisa McPherson, yet she had to
8 simply write a report about the debriefing of a police
9 officer.
10 MR. LAURO: Wait a minute. A lawyer was
11 not involved in the case until after she died. Until
12 after she died -- well, let me just -- I'm sure it's a
13 clear question, because a lawyer was not involved in
14 this matter prior to the time that Lisa McPherson died.
15 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Right.
16 MR. LAURO: So there would be no
17 circumstances where a lawyer would have directed a
18 caretaker to write reports about Lisa McPherson's care.
19 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Well, yeah, there
20 would be. If you're the lawyer and you're going to
21 represent the church and I took care of Lisa McPherson,
22 wouldn't you ask me for a report of what I did?
23 MR. LAURO: Are you asking me as counsel
24 for the church?
25 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah. That's my
Page 3998 Image
92
1 simple question is --
2 MR. LAURO: Why don't you just ask her
3 that?
4 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I thought I asked her
5 that. I'm sorry if I didn't ask that.
6 THE WITNESS: I found the question a
7 little confusing.
8 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I'm sorry.
9 MR. LAURO: Why don't we start all over
10 again?
11 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
12 Q. The problem I have is we put a lot of energy
13 into written debriefs about what law enforcement had to
14 ask the staff members --
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. -- yet we have not had any testimony of
17 written reports by the caretakers themselves about the
18 care of Lisa which would be the crux of the
19 investigation.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Why is that?
22 A. It -- what you're saying is very logical. I
23 don't know that that didn't occur in the month of
24 December.
25 Q. Okay. We've been told -- we've been told --
Page 3999 Image
93
1 the State Attorney's been told through his subpoenas
2 there has not, so that's what I was asking.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Would it be normal to destroy documents?
5 A. Sure. We -- you know, it's not unusual to
6 shred things you don't need anymore.
7 Q. Okay. So hand -- have you ever shredded
8 handwritten reports by people involved in your legal
9 affairs cases that you're working with an attorney?
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. Can you give me one instance without
12 divulging any secret stuff?
13 A. I can't think of a specific, but I can give
14 you an example of what I would do.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Let's say I have, you know, something that
17 somebody -- some document that's part of a lawsuit that
18 handwriting is almost indecipherable. I would type it
19 up where it wasn't a document that was actually part of
20 a production or something like that, right? I'd type
21 it up for the attorney and say this is the summation
22 of, you know, what it is I typed up and give it over to
23 the attorney so he has something that he can read.
24 Q. Okay. I got a little confused on the
25 production. Maybe I'm not legally --
Page 4000 Image
94
1 A. Well, meaning it was something that wasn't
2 subpoenaed, like all original handwritten notes
3 concerning blah --
4 Q. Okay
5 A. Something like that.
6 Q. The transcript that you did on the tapes from
7 the attorneys, were they just to simply type out, you
8 know, the police question and then the person's answer?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Is that what you did? You didn't -- you
11 didn't summarize anything from that?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I wasn't changing anything other than the
15 straight transcription.
16 Q. Did you write a knowledge report on Annie
17 Mora for having the reports in the folders in her
18 office on Lisa?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Why not?
21 A. I probably should have.
22 Q. Probably should have?
23 A. Probably, factually. I just confronted her
24 instead.
25 SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's all I've got.
Page 4001 Image
95
1 Thank you.
2 MR. LAURO: Before we go to Agent
3 Strope, there's one other area that I believe you need
4 to clarify and that's any access you've had to central
5 file. I think you need to put that on the record as
6 well.
7 THE WITNESS: Access to central file?
8 MR. LAURO: Central file on the night of
9 Lisa McPherson's death.
10 BY MR. MCGARRY:
11 Q. First of all, what is a central file?
12 A. A central file is a file that's kept within
13 the organization as a normal course of business. It
14 has -- it's like a correspondence file. Correspondence
15 back and forth between a church section that deals
16 with, you know, getting parishioners on services and
17 the parishioner themselves.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And each one would be contained in the file.
20 It's called a central file. It also has like invoices
21 of donations mainly, that sort, of thing.
22 Q. Okay. And Lisa McPherson had one of those?
23 A. Yeah, everybody does.
24 Q. And you looked at that, handled it? Is that
25 where your lawyer's taking us here?
Page 4002 Image
96
1 A. Yeah. That -- okay. December -- this is
2 December -- the night that it occurred there was
3 someone -- and I think it was Annie but I'm not
4 positive -- who had gathered up a central file. We
5 were trying to find out like was there a history of
6 some illness or, you know, family members, next of kin,
7 something, because obviously somebody had to be
8 contacted about her death, and we wanted to figure out
9 how to approach it, and she had brought a central file
10 in, and there was one other file, and I actually just
11 don't remember what the other file was, but it was
12 something of a similar nature, and I was looking for it
13 through Annie or, you know, at the request of Annie for
14 time constraint purposes to see if there was anything
15 in there that would -- that she could use.
16 Q. For --
17 A. You know, like --
18 Q. For medical purpose?
19 A. For helping contact the next of kin,
20 whatever, something like that.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And there wasn't anything in the file of any
23 interest, so the file at that time I gave back to
24 Annie, and I went back to what it was I was doing which
25 was my preps for Italy.
Page 4003 Image
97
1 MR. MCGARRY: Agent Strope?
2 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I just had a quick
3 question I forgot on the first page.
4 BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
5 Q. Jane Jentszch, have you had contact with her
6 in reference to the Lisa McPherson case since Lisa has
7 died?
8 A. She was my auditor.
9 Q. Was she everybody's auditor?
10 A. Pretty much, yeah.
11 Q. Why was that?
12 A. Because she's an auditor from the Office of
13 Special Affairs, so she wouldn't -- she was here to
14 audit our staff.
15 Q. Okay. Did she conduct checks? I mean, was
16 it a second check? I mean, did you receive an audit or
17 was it a second check?
18 A. It actually wasn't either. What I received
19 was an actual -- well, it's called an ethics interview
20 and it's concerning, you know, basically somebody goofs
21 up on their post and it's like, Okay, what's going on
22 here? Let's see if we can get to the bottom of it and
23 figure out what it is. It was that sort of --
24 Q. So Jane Jentszch may be the investigator that
25 I'm looking to talk to probably then?
Page 4004 Image
98
1 A. No, not at all. That --that's not how I was
2 characterizing. I'm talking about for me personally
3 make -- finding out -- it could even be anything. It
4 doesn't even have to specifically do with Lisa
5 McPherson. In other words, when an individual goofs it
6 could be all sorts of causes. You know, they could be
7 having husband and wife troubles, right? You would
8 find out the reason why a person is having troubles
9 with their post.
10 Q. Well, if you were having husband and wife
11 problems, would Jane Jentszch fly here from LA OSA
12 International to give you an audit?
13 A. Well, she was here for three months before,
14 that.
15 Q. Well -- she was --
16 A. She had been here many months.
17 Q. -- had been there after Lisa died?
18 A. No, no, no.
19 Q. She came here before Lisa died?
20 A. Oh, yeah. She was here in September of '95.
21 She had already been there, so it was disrelated.
22 SERGEANT ANDREWS: That was my last one.
23 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
24 Q. Was she here during November?
25 A. I believe so.
Page 4005 Image
99
1 Q. She was here then?
2 A. I believe so. I don't think she left. I
3 don't remember any period of time where she left after
4 she arrived in September.
5 MR. LAURO: Could you spell her name for
6 the record? How do you -- or even phonetically just
7 spell it.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, I think it's
9 J-e-n-t-s-z-c-h, something like that.
10 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
11 Q. So she was here, as far as you know, in
12 November of '95?
13 A. As far as I know.
14 Q. Was anyone else from Los Angeles here in
15 November of '95 of import?
16 A. I don't think so. Not that I remember.
17 Q. What was her job, auditor?
18 A. Auditor, yeah. She arrived in mid September
19 or so to audit all of the OSA staff, OSA file staff.
20 Q. Did she assist in any way into the
21 investigation of Lisa?
22 A. Not that I know of. I mean, other than from
23 the point of relieving anybody spiritually from
24 whatever they had.
25 Q. Being she works at OSA International -- is
Page 4006 Image
100
1 that where she works?
2 A. (Nodding head.)
3 Q. -- would she have the power to move the files
4 to Los Angeles?
5 A. You mean the pre-clear folders?
6 Q. Yeah, all the folders that are missing.
7 A. No, that wouldn't have been anything she had
8 anything to do with.
9 Q. She wouldn't have had anything to do with
10 that?
11 A. Not at all. It wouldn't be a counselor's job
12 at all to do that.
13 Q. She's more than just a counselor, she's an
14 OSA employee, right?
15 A. Her post is as counselor. She is an auditor.
16 Q. In the office of OSA?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Doesn't that put her a little above just the
19 average auditor?
20 A. No.
21 Q. No?
22 A. No. Their classification is what puts them
23 above somebody else. Their classification and
24 experience as an auditor is what puts them in a
25 classification.
Page 4007 Image
101
1 Q. Did you yourself write any reports concerning
2 Lisa McPherson?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You wrote no reports at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And you were the legal officer?
7 A. The only thing that I would write concerning
8 the matter would be from me to my attorney. It would
9 be attorney/client privilege.
10 Q. But you didn't write anything directed to Los
11 Angeles or to any of your superiors concerning Lisa
12 McPherson?
13 A. Not that I recall.
14 Q. Not that you recall or you have no knowledge?
15 A. Not that I recall. Not that I recall.
16 Q. If you had written reports concerning Lisa
17 McPherson, who would they have been directed to?
18 MR. LAURO: You mean who was her
19 superior at that time?
20 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
21 Q. Who would the reports have been directed to?
22 A. Let me think who was in in December of '95.
23 It's changed a number of times, so it would have been
24 to someone -- well, let's see. Kurt Wieland was the
25 one that had the other ones, so he was familiar with
Page 4008 Image
102
1 the matter to some degree.
2 Q. And his position is or was in November of
3 '95?
4 A. Was deputy commander external, DCO external,
5 Office of Special Affairs International.
6 Q. Were you familiar of any procedures that were
7 being, done on Lisa prior to her car accident in
8 November of 1995 or maybe the day of her car accident
9 in 1995?
10 A. In the -- any proced -- you mean like
11 auditing?
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. I don't believe she was receiving any
14 auditing.
15 Q. Did you yourself receive any calls from
16 Morton Plant Hospital when Lisa was there for her
17 accident?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You testified earlier to Mr. McGarry that you
20 talked to Paul Kellerhals about the treatment that Lisa
21 was getting.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And you mentioned something about wanting to
24 get her medical attention. What was that conversation
25 about?
Page 4009 Image
103
1 A. Well, the way I remember it is I said if she
2 didn't -- if they couldn't figure out a way to coax her
3 into eating, that she would need to get some medical
4 attention.
5 Q. Did you tell him specifically what that
6 medical attention should be?
7 A. No. I'm not a doctor.
8 Q. Were you talking about sending her out to a
9 doctor or something?
10 A. Yeah, get a doctor.
11 Q. Did he mention to you something that Janice
12 Johnson or Laura Arrunada were medical doctors?
13 A. No. I mean, he didn't mention them. I knew
14 they were medical doctors.
15 Q. You knew. they were medical doctors?
16 A. No. Well, actually, that isn't even true. I
17 knew Janice had been a medical doctor but wasn't
18 particularly a medical doctor here. Laura, I don't
19 know if she was ever officially a full medical doctor.
20 Q. Were you ever briefed by Alain Kartuzinski or
21 Janice Johnson concerning Lisa's condition?
22 A. You mean at the time it was occurring?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. No.
25 Q. How about after it occurring?
Page 4010 Image
104
1 A. Well, just in terms of the preparations of
2 the interviews that I was mentioning which Bob Johnson
3 was present.
4 Q. So you -- your part as being a legal person
s was to assist an attorney in preparing a person who was
6 going to talk to the police?,
7 A. Well, assisting him in whatever he needed.
8 In other words, if he needed a note taker, I'd sit and
9 take notes for him. If he wanted me to type up his
10 notes like I did in the case of these interviews, I'd
11 type them up for him. In other words, I did have the
12 function of acting sort of similar to a secretary to
13 him.
14 Q. So -- so prior to police contact, a
15 parishioner or staff is interviewed by yourself or a
16 legal person and an attorney?
17 A. They were never interviewed just by me.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I'm just saying --
20 Q. There's always an attorney present?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Were you interviewed today prior to your
23 testimony by the legal -- who's the legal person now?
24 A. Glenn Stilo? No.
25 Q. No?
Page 4011 Image
105
1 A. Just by my attorney here.
2 Q. So you haven't discussed this case with Glenn
3 Stilo at all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since Lisa died you haven't discussed this
6 case with anyone?
7 MR. LAURO: She was interviewed in LA.
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
10 Q. By attorneys?
11 A. Twice. Twice by attorneys.
12 Q. By people from OSA in Los Angeles?
13 A. Unh-unh.
14 Q. You never talked about it with anyone other
15 than attorneys?
16 A. Well, not unless -- I think there was one of
17 the special affairs people present at one of those --
18 actually, both of those attorneys meeting in the same
19 fashion like I would assist Bob Johnson.
20 Q. Have you ever discussed Lisa McPherson with
21 anyone who's been deposed here?
22 MR. LAURO: I don't know that she knew
23 anybody who's been deposed.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I have no idea who's
25 been deposed.
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106
1 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
2 Q. Have you ever discussed Humberto's testimony.
3 MR. LAURO: Other than with counsel?
4 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
5 Q. Ever discussed Humberto's testimony?
6 A. With Humberto, no.
7 Q. Is it customary when a parishioner dies to
8 run that scenario through your attorney? Is that
9 something you do whenever a parishioner passes away?
10 A. It's not unusual.
11 Q. It's done whenever a parishioner dies at a
12 local hospital or in a car accident or whatever to call
13 your attorney first?
14 A. Well -- okay. It would depend on the
15 circumstances. If it's something like obviously if a
16 person dies on our -- you know, on the property or who
17 had been recently on the property or something like
18 that, it would not be unusual under those
19 circumstances, and very frequently if it was a regular
20 church member, yeah, we would.
21 Q. Part -- would part of that reasoning be to
22 kind of suppress the shore flap, try to nip it in the
23 bud, so to speak, as far as the press is concerned or
24 whatever?
25 A. Not necessarily.
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107
1 Q. Not necessarily?
2 A. It would be more for the purpose of finding
3 out is there anything that we would need to execute at
4 his instruction, or in some cases he may want to just
5 take over the representation of the matter and have the
6 individuals dealing with him directly. That would be
7 at his determination.
8 Q. I hate to get back to these folders again,
9 but I guess I have to. I've got one more question
10 here, and then I think I'm done.
11 I know whenever I work for the State of
12 Florida, whenever we transfer files from my office to
13 Tallahassee or from Tallahassee back there is a log
14 kept of who requested it, when they went, what was in
15 the files, who sends them, what it cost, in my case,
16 how they were sent. Are there logs like that kept at
17 OSA for that that are shipped? Is there some
18 accountability for files that are shipped instead of
19 just sending them off?
20 A. There should be. That's about the way I can
21 explain it.
22 Q. Well, should be and is?
23 A. There should be and is are two different
24 points. There is no specific log that says what files
25 directly. There are certain kind of documents that may
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108
1 say we shipped something to Los Angeles, the time and
2 then once it arrives on the other side it's shredded.
3 In other words, you're not gonna keep records of
4 everything you've ever shipped to California for an
5 indefinite period of time.
6 Q. Do you keep a log on this end of what's
7 shipped?
ööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö