Lisa McPherson Files - Sworn Statement of Gabriella Sanchez
Caretaker
From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa
McPherson's death:
1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
STATEMENT OF: GABRIELLA SANCHEZ
DATE: August 21, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:15 a.m.
Ended: 10:30 a.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE
John F. Lauro, P.A.
6 Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 3950
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
10 Florida Department of Law Enforcement
11 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 INDEX
PAGE
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 35
21 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 51
22
23 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 64
24
25
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1 The deponent herein,
2 GABRIELLA SANCHEZ,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. LAURO: Let me state on the record that
7 my name is John Lauro, and I represent Miss Sanchez.
8 Miss Sanchez is testifying pursuant to a subpoena
9 issued by the State Attorney's Office and is testifying
10 under the full protections of that subpoena.
11 MR. McGARRY: Okay. We'll begin.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. McGARRY:
14 Q. Gaby, my name is Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor.
15 Have you been introduced to these gentlemen?
16 A. Not particularly.
17 Q. This is Lee Strope, FDLE, and Wayne Andrews,
18 Clearwater Police.
19 A. What's FDLE?
20 Q. Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
21 A. Okay. All right.
22 Q. We're going to be asking you some questions in
23 reference to your contact and association with
24 Lisa McPherson.
25 Before I do that, I want to get some background on
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1 you, if I could.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Your name, for the record?
4 A. Gabriella Sanchez.
5 MR. LATURO: Spell it for us.
6 THE WITNESS: G-a-b-r-i-e-l-l-a.
7 Q. And your date of birth?
8 A. X 1972.
9 Q. All right. Where do you reside?
10 A. Clearwater.
11 Q. Okay. Specifically?
12 A. Specifically, X, X, Florida.
13 Q. That's known as -- where is that, Hacienda?
14 A. That's known as the Hacienda Gardens.
15 Q. Okay. I'm familiar with the place.
16 And do you have a roommate?
17 A. Only my husband.
18 Q. Okay. That was my next question, married.
19 All right. You're married?
2O A. Yes.
21 Q. Is he also a Scientologist?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And are you on Staff with the Church?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And how long have you been on Staff with
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1 the Church?
2 A. With the Florida Church, since 1990, so about
3 seven years. And in Los Angeles prior to that from 1986.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. So about 11 years total.
6 Q. All right. When did you first become associated
7 with the Church?
8 A. Well, my mother was a Scientologist when I was
9 growing up. However, I personally started any courses or
10 whatever at the age of 14 or 15.
11 Q. And that was in California?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. All right. And was your husband -- is your
14 husband -- did he become a Scientologist through you or was
15 he also a member of the Church when you met him?
16 A. He was a member of the Church when I met him.
17 Q. Okay. Were you a member of Staff in California?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And what were your responsibilities there?
20 A. I held different jobs. Worked in the
21 Treasury Department. Contacted parishioners. The most
22 major job that I did was I -- I stayed in touch with
23 students and got them scheduled to come down from different
24 places in the United States to take courses.
25 Q. In California?
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. All right. How did you come to be relocated in
3 Clearwater?
4 A. I decided to move down here. And then --
5 Q. That was your decision?
6 A. Yeah. And I -- I basically we have short
7 contracts in the Los Angeles Church. So I had finished mine
8 and I decided to come down to the main Church, not
9 necessarily to be on Staff, to take services. And then
10 later I decided to start to be on Staff.
11 Q. Explain "contracts" to me. Is that a Staff
12 contract?
13 A. Yeah. I had a two and a half year -- I had signed
14 a two and a half year contract in Los Angeles. And I
15 actually left after four years, but ...
16 Q. All right. So when you originally came to
17 Clearwater, it wasn't necessarily to be a Staff member here,
18 you were going to take further courses?
19 A. Yeah. Which I did.
20 Q. Okay. And are you continuing to take courses?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. What, if I may ask, what level are you on
23 that side of the ledger, the training ledger?
24 A. On the training?
25 Q. Not the training --
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1 A. Processing? Well, I'm below Clear, so I'm --
2 Q. You're not Clear yet?
3 A. Yeah, I'm not Clear yet.
4 Q. All right. So when you first came to Clearwater,
5 what position did you take as a Staff person?
6 A. Well, I was on I have to explain it in order
7 for you to guys to understand it.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. But I was basically a Deputy for the executive
10 over the Public divisions. And the Public divisions are --
11 basically, we have representatives all over the planet and
12 they -- they see parishioners and they get them scheduled
13 and help them book airline flights, et cetera, to come here
14 to Florida. So I was that person's Deputy.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. The executive over that --
17 Q. Who was that person?
18 A. At that time that was Abby Bregman.
19 MR. LAURO: Why don't you spell that.
20 THE WITNESS: A-b-b-y, B-r-e-g-m-a-n.
21 She's since gotten married, so her last name
22 is Lancaster now.
23 Q. Okay. Is that the position that you did back in
24 December of '95?
25 A. No. That was --
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1 Q. You moved on to something else?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. I then after that went into training, executive
5 training, and then I became the Deputy over the other side
6 of what we call the Org Board. I don't know if that's come
7 up at all. Well, there's -- so I became, same level, only
8 just over the other -- other divisions, basically, Deputy.
9 Q. All right. And ultimately in December of '95,
10 this is when the Lisa McPherson thing was going on, that was
11 your position?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to -- did you know Lisa McPherson
14 prior to her stay at the Cabana?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did you know her?
17 A. I knew she was a parishioner. She knew me by
18 name. And when I would see her around, we'd say hello to
19 each other.
20 Q. Okay. But did you have any contact with her in
21 relationship to your Staff position at the Church?
22 A. Not particularly. Only when I would go around in
23 the areas, I would see her, so I would say hello and we'd
24 talk.
25 Q. All right. Okay. How long did you know her prior
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1 to her Type III situation coming up?
2 A. About a year, roughly.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Did you ever socialize with her?
6 A. Not particularly: I mean, if -- only to the
7 degree, I'd stop and we'd talk to each other, I'd find out
8 how she's doing.
9 Q. Did you know where she worked?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn't?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. When did you find out that she had a
14 problem she was experiencing? I believe you guys refer to
15 this as a Type III.
16 A. Yeah. Yeah.
17 Q. Is that how you would refer to this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. When did you learn that?
20 A. Well, in '95. I don't remember which month, but
21 it was when this was going on.
22 Q. After her little car accident? She had a car
23 accident, she walked around naked in the streets.
24 A. Yeah, see, I didn't know that necessarily.
25 Q. Okay. It was right after that day that she, of
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1 course, ended up in the Cabana section of the hotel.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. When did you learn that? Did you know that that
4 day?
5 A. It was probably a couple weeks ago. I didn't know
6 there was a car accident or anything.
7 Q. All right. But when did you know that she was in
8 the -- staying at the Cabana section of the hotel?
9 A. A couple weeks before she died or one -- one to
10 two weeks before she died, to --
11 Q. Okay. And how did that come about?
12 A. Basically, I was told by my Senior that -- very
13 briefly what --
14 Q. our Senior is who?
15 A. His name was Frank Fiorretti.
16 MR. LAURO: If you can spell that again too.
17 THE WITNESS: . Last name F-i-o-r-r-e-t-t-i.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And basically what he said is, he basically told
20 me Lisa McPherson was in a Type III situation and they
21 didn't exactly know what they needed to do, but because we
22 were over one of the divisions that deals with personnel, we
23 needed to somehow figure out how to give her -- I don't know
24 what you want to call them, but people that could take --
25 that could look after her and make sure that, you know, she
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1 doesn't hurt herself and, you know, is fed and all that.
2 Q. I see. So you were briefed on that and you --
3 were you requested to assist in assembling this 24-hour
4 watch?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does that articulate that better for you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. So that's where I'm going.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Your mission then in this whole thing was
11 basically gathering up people and --
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. -- setting up schedules, possibly, for the watch
14 that was occurring?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that's what you did?
17 A. Yes. And I was -- I was given more details by
18 Alain Kartuzinski, which I'm sure you guys know.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I mean, that was -- my Senior pretty much only had
21 the data that he told me, and he asked me to go and see him
22 and find out what's needed.
23 Q. So then you went to see Mr. Kartuzinski?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And why him?
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1 A. Because, basically, he's a Senior supervisor over
2 processing. Now, as far as I know, she wasn't necessarily
3 getting processing, but she had in the past, since she's a
4 Church member. So he's a Senior person over Church members'
5 progress, if you know what I mean.
6 Q. Right.
7 That was called Senior Case Supervisor at the
8 time?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. So you had a meeting with him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. And was that meeting just the two of
13 you or was there anybody else there?
14 A. Well, originally -- well, it was with me and, I
15 believe, Olivier Jaillot, which was someone junior to me.
16 MR. LAURO: Spell that, please.
17 THE WITNESS: Last name is J-a-i-l-l-o-t.
18 Q. Okay. And why was he there?
19 A. Basically, with me, so we can work out what we
20 needed to do, basically.
21 Q. Oh, all right.
22 A. What I remember is, I had him come with me so that
23 he would also get the data and then we could figure out what
24 we needed to do.
25 Q. Okay. This data was all transferred to you orally
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1 or was there anything written?
2 A. Orally.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. How long was the meeting, if you remember?
6 A. The actual meeting was probably about, I don't
7 know, half an hour, 40 minutes.
8 I then -- after he told me what was going on and
9 told me what the best thing to do in order to -- to try to
10 help stabilize her, I then had Olivier go and find these
11 different women and bring them there so that they could get,
12 basically, briefed by Alain Kartuzinski on what was going on
13 and what they needed to do.
14 Q. Okay. Well, let's go back to the conversations
15 you had with him as to what he wanted you to do.
16 Did he tell you -- he didn't tell you at that time
17 what had occurred with her and her automobile?
18 A. Well, he didn't tell me about the -- the car
19 accident necessarily. What he did tell me, and I thought it
20 was earlier, but it sounds like it was very close to this
21 time period, I didn't know, he told me that he had not too
22 long ago had to go and actually get her, 'cause she was
23 picked up by the police and stuff like that, and that she
24 was, basically, gone nuts or whatever. And so he was
25 basically -- he knew her and he was a fairly good friend of
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1 hers, so she recognized him and she wanted to go with him.
2 And so he told me that she wasn't doing well and,
3 basically, that she was very nuts. And that he felt that
4 the best thing that would be done is to have women for four
5 hours apiece, because of the amount of endurance, because
6 several women got black eyes and all that sort of thing.
7 Q. It was a physical thing, period?
8 A. Yeah.
9 So I believe it was four hours apiece, two women
10 that would stay there. One, obviously -- I don't know, just
11 two women, just to twin up and pair up. And it had to go 24
12 hours.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. And the base -- the whole purpose of it, it
15 wasn't -- this wasn't supposed to go on very long or
16 anything, it was just so that she starts to calm down, she
17 can get some rest, start to eat and start to, I don't know
18 what you want to call it, chill out.
19 Q. Right.
20 Did he tell you how this was going to be
21 coordinated as far as working with the MLO Office? Was
22 there a person that you had to work with in that office in
23 order to coordinate this?
24 A. No.
25 Q. We'll call this a watch, is that okay with you?
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1 A. Yeah, that's fine.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. No, he didn't say anything about the MLO Office.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. I do know that prior to this is when somebody in
6 the MLO Office had to watch her just because she was
7 going.-- she was really being nutso and there wasn't --
8 Q. Who was that?
9 A. I think Janice Johnson.
10 So I think -- I think it was prior to that, I'm
11 not sure though, that she had to be in there with her,
12 basically, and then --
13 Q. So you're saying the MLO Office was kind of
14 saddled with this responsibility, and then when it looked
15 like it was too much for the people in that office, that you
16 got in and assembled a bigger team? Is that fair to say?
17 No?
18 A. Not particularly. It's not -- this is not some
19 normal occurrence, and it's not something that's covered in
20 any -- anything L. Ron Hubbard wrote as far as policies on
21 the Medical Liaison Office handles that.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. They were never actually given the responsibility.
24 It was sort of like they were called upon because it sort of
25 slightly fit into their job, but not really. But they
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1 were -- I don't remember ever hearing them -- hearing that
2 it was their responsibility.
3 Q. Do you know Judy Goldsberry-Weber? Do you know
4 her?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. She's with that office.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Did you learn later that she was down at the
9 hospital, she was instrumental in getting Lisa released to
10 the Church?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You don't know about that?
13 A. I don't know the previous stuff, really.
14 Q. So if I showed you a calendar, you're not able to
15 recollect when you became involved in this whole thing?
16 A. I do know it was a couple of weeks before she
17 died.
18 Q. Well, I know that the car accident occurred on --
19 MR. McGARRY: Correct me if I'm wrong,
20 fellows. Is that on --
21 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: November 18th.
22 Q. -- the 18th, which is a Saturday.
23 Do you have any recollection as to which day of
24 the week you got involved in this?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. That's fair.
2 A. Oh, yeah, it was a Friday.
3 Q. It was a Friday.
4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Thanksgiving was
5 in there too, which might help.
6 A. It was a Friday, because we normally have what's
7 called the graduation, and I had to -- Olivier had to find
8 these girls when they were at graduation, basically.
9 Q. Well, that doesn't make sense, but maybe you
10 organized it better than what they had.
11 Were there girls watching her 'round the clock?
12 A. There was some girls already watching her.
13 Q. I gotcha. So you might have further organized it?
14 A. I was asked to add people so it was every four
15 hours, two women, so they could also have a break, so they
16 can be fresh and ...
17 Q. Okay. That clears it up a little bit.
18 A. Yeah, because it's an upsetting thing.
19 Q. That would explain why you knew some people were
20 having some physical situations coming up.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. I'm starting to put it together here.
23 So were you aware Mr. Kartuzinski was getting his
24 reports from these girls that were having a tough time with
25 Lisa?
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1 A. I don't know previously to when I came in, came
2 into the situation, but I do know that he had asked them to
3 do that. I mean, that was one of the things he had said,
4 I'm going to want to know what happened.
5 Q. What's going on?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. So a service was put in place as far as keeping
8 him informed --
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. -- through reports?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Were you involved in that?
13 A. No, I wasn't at all.
14 Q. Did you communicate that to the people that you
15 put together on your four-hour shifts?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I mean, did you explain to them, or did they go to
18 Mr. Kartuzinski himself?
19 A. I had -- basically, Olivier went and got them.
20 And I told them, Look, this is what you're going to be
21 doing, and as far as -- instead of their normal jobs.
22 Q. Okay. So you --
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. You passed on the instructions Kartuzinski gave
25 you to them?
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1 A. No. Kartuzinski -- I had them come into his
2 office -- I explained to them just on the personnel side of
3 things that instead of their job for the full day, they're
4 going to be -- a certain time they're going to be helping on
5 this. And then Alain Kartuzinski then told them what they
6 needed to do. Which I was there at the time, and he did say
7 do daily reports.
8 Q. Okay. So you heard --
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. -- him give the instructions to them as to what he
11 wanted done?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Well, tell me about that, what he said. I'd like
14 to know that.
15 A. Well, first thing he said is, it's important to
16 keep the place quiet and keep her fed and drinking water,
17 et cetera, because she won't do that and she'll refuse to do
18 that. There was one person that had been watching her
19 already, which was -- her name was Heather -- I don't
20 remember what her name was then, it's Petzold now -- and she
21 explained some things of how to get her to eat and things
22 like that, just because she would -- I don't know. Alain
23 also said, Don't -- don't try to talk to her, et cetera,
24 just keep the place quiet and just get her food and water.
25 Q. Right.
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1 A. Because talking to her will -- I mean, she's
2 what's called very enturbulated and upset, and trying to
3 talk and --
4 Q. There is Hubbard guidance for this?
5 A. Right. Right.
6 Q. And that no talking is part of the Hubbard techs
7 in calming someone who is Type III?
8 A. Yeah, specially someone who's Type III.
9 Q. So there is Hubbard guidance as to that?
10 A. Yeah.
11 So basically what they said, basically, no
12 talking. If she tries to come at you, which she will, then,
13 you know, block it or whatever, and the other person can
14 help and run control on it. Basically, get her to go sit
15 back down or something like that.
16 Q. Okay. Did he explain what the procedure was going
17 to be in the event she tried to leave the room or expressed
18 an interest in going home or doing any like that? What
19 was -- what was going to be the plan in the event that
20 occurred?
21 A. Well, honestly, the -- the plan was that she needs
22 to be kept there and -- so that she could -- I mean, we're
23 not going to let somebody that's totally crazy run out the
24 door, you know, to get hit by a car or to whatever.
25 Q. I understand.
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1 The plan was she wouldn't be allowed to leave --
2 A. I mean, for right --
3 Q. -- under those circumstances?
4 A. Yeah. I mean, that whole thing was completely
5 temporary, and it was basically to get her calmed down and
6 make sure she actually eats.
7 Q. Were you aware that she actually did try to leave?
8 A. I've heard things, but I don't know. I mean, I
9 don't really know.
10 Q. You never did participate, in the watch yourself?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever go down there and see her?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Did you read any reports in reference to
15 what was occurring?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. You weren't in that chain of reports?
18 A. No, I wasn't.
19 Q. Okay. Did you ever memorialize any instructions
20 you got in a written form and submit them to anybody else,
21 what would commonly be called a Knowledge Report, in
22 reference to Lisa McPherson?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Okay. Did you, after Kartuzinski gave the
25 instructions to the -- to the girls, did you have any
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1 further meetings with him in reference to how this watch was
2 going?
3 A. Well, I did go to his office, I asked him -- and
4 I've also run into him, you know, we work in the same place,
5 SO I would ask him how -- how she was doing.
6 Q. And he would say what?
7 A. Well, he told me that she was doing -- starting to
8 do much better since, that time. That -- that is the data
9 that I had. So it was -- it was a shock when, you know --
10 Q. Meaning she was calming down?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. All right. Did he ever say that he went down to
13 see her?
14 A. Not particularly. I mean, I didn't really ask
15 him. I don't really know.
16 Q. Is there an understanding how, to you, how the
17 Medical Liaison Office was involved in this watch? Did
18 you -- were you part of that or was that their own
19 organizational --
20 A. I don't understand the question.
21 Q. Well, you seem to be involved with organizing a
22 lot of these women that I've talked to.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. But the MLO was also involved in this thing.
25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. I know that because I've talked to many of them
2 too.
3 You weren't involved with their schedules, were
4 you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Johnson?
7 A. See, they were --
8 Q. Laura Arrunada?
9 A. Well, Laura and Suzanne Green were part of the
10 MLO Office and I assigned them to this. But that was not
11 because -- because necessarily they were MLO Staff, it was
12 only -- I don't know if you see both of them, they're fairly
13 tall and they're not petite, if you know what I mean.
14 Q. So Suzanne Green -- you had the authority to
15 assign officers in the MLO Office to this watch?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. You were over them?
18 A. I wasn't -- I'm not particularly over that
19 division where the MLO Office is. However, I basically was
20 given -- my Senior said figure out who you can do, and then
21 I just had Olivier bring them up and I told them that's what
22 they're going to do. I told their Seniors afterwards.
23 Q. And your Senior again at the time?
24 A. Frank Fiorretti.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. I mean, he basically knew the same thing as me.
2 mean, I ended up finding out more.
3 Q. What was his title?
4 A. It's called Super Cargo, or Hubbard Executive
5 Secretary over the Executive Office, Hubbard Communication
6 Division and the Dissemination Division.
7 Q. Emma, was she involved in this, Emma Schamehorn?
8 A. I don't actually know. I mean, I don't know. I'm
9 sure she heard about what was going on, but I don't know.
10 Q. Were any of these girls that you know of friends
11 with Lisa more than just Staff members? I mean, did any of
12 them actually know her?
13 A. I don't -- I don't know.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I did know her. I mean, if she was alive today,
16 she would know who I was --
17 Q. Recognize you?
18 A. -- and say, Hi, Gaby, how are you doing? I mean,
19 we would -- we would talk to each other.
20 Q. Did you have any conferences or discussions with
21 anybody from the Office of Special Affairs Division?
22 A. There was only one time when I was interviewed by
23 their attorneys, but other than that, no.
24 Q. This is after it all went bad?
25 A. Yeah. Well, that was a few months ago that --
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25
1 Q. So we're talking Sandy Weinberg and Lee Fugate?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Those guys, the guys from Tampa?
4 A. I think so. I don't remember their names.
5 MR. LAURO: Lee would deny he's from Tampa.
6 MR. McGARRY: You're right, he would deny it.
7 Q. When were you made aware that Lisa passed away,
8 died?
9 A. I don't actually honestly know the exact date,
10 but--
11 Q. Well, was it within -- I mean, was it days after
12 or was it December 5th when everything -- when it happened?
13 A. I think it was the same day or the next day.
14 Q. Okay. And who told you that?
15 A. Let me think. I think I overheard it. I don't
16 actually remember who told me. Anyways, I think I might
17 have overheard it from Marcus Quirino, I'm not sure, because
18 I work in the same -- I was working in the same office area.
19 I think it was from him.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I've been told from several people
21 that after she did die there was a bit of a concern, almost
22 want to say panic within the Church that she had an
23 infectious disease.
24 A. Yeah, I heard that. I did not know up until a few
25 weeks ago what actually she died of.
Page 3632 Image
26
1 Q. I've been told there were a couple of assemblies
2 of people after she died in reference to having a discussion
3 and report writing and possible isolation of people that had
4 contact with her, and those meetings involved Marcus Quirino
5 and possibly Brian Anderson and some others. Were you
6 involved in that?
7 A. I wasn't involved in the meetings. However, I
8 worked in the same office area and I do remember -- I mean,
9 obviously, it's called -- it's what we call a flap. I mean,
10 it's -- like what happened --
11 Q. A flap?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. And anyway, so I overheard that when it -- the
15 discussion came up, basically, what had happened. I don't
16 know of any meetings necessarily, any big meetings, 'cause I
17 didn't attend and I didn't see that or anything.
18 Q. You weren't asked to participate?
19 A. No, not necessarily.
20 Q. And probably because -- well, "not necessarily,"
21 does that mean yes or no, "not necessarily"?
22 A. No, I wasn't.
23 Q. Okay. And that would have been probably because
24 you'd never had any contact physically with her when she
25 stayed at the Cabana?
Page 3633 Image
27
I A. Yeah. So I -- yeah, I did hear a couple days
2 later -- I mean, I found out about this possible infection
3 thing, I don't know the next day or -- or whatever, just in
4 overhearing what was going on.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. I mean, the -- honestly, what I observed and what
7 I heard was that the women -- it was worried that she had an
8 infectious disease.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. And I don't know whether this was 24 hours later --
11 or whatever. And the women who had watched her at the time
12 were basically, I think, for a few hours or a day, were told
13 to -- to go into isolation, just in case.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. And that's the data I have.
16 Q. All right. There's a Hubbard procedure that has
17 been alluded to by several people in this case called an
18 Introspection Rundown.
19 A. Uh-huh. -
20 Q. And several people have indicated that that was
21 what ultimately she was going to go through after she had
22 been stabilized through this watch.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Is that what your understanding was?
25 A. Yeah. I mean, Alain said that that would be what
Page 3634 Image
28
1 she would get.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. But first she's -- right now --
4 Q. Never got to it?
S A. You know, she wouldn't --
6 Q. She's not prepared for auditing?
7 A. Exactly, yeah.
8 Q. Okay. Does that describe it?
9 A. That's absolutely correct.
10 Q. All right. So in his-- in his discussions with
11 the caretakers, did he make that known to them, that was
12 what the scenario was? What we're going to do, we're going
13 to calm her down through this watch, we're not going to
14 speak to her, and once she gets stabilized she'll be
15 prepared through auditing, and we're going to try to bring
16 her back through an Introspection Rundown?
17 A. Yeah, basically that's what I mean. I mean, I
18 don't remember if he said Introspection, but there's no way
19 she can go into any session until we're going to calm her
20 down.
21 Q. You don't remember him using the words
22 "Introspection Rundown"?
23 A. I don't recall, but that's --
24 Q. That's a procedure employed by the Hubbard --
25 A. I mean, he's the head of the section, so I don't
Page 3635 Image
29
1 really know.
2 Q. Mr. Kartuzinski is not Senior Case Supervisor
3 anymore, correct?
4 A. Yeah. That was only because the Senior Case
S Supervisor who -- the real Senior Case Supervisor was
6 basically, in Los Angeles doing training and so he's since
7 come back.
8 Q. So you're trying to tell me that because of this
9 screw-up, it didn't have anything to do with Mr. Kartuzinski
10 being busted down to Word Clear?
11 A. Word Clear?
12 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No, he's just an
13 Auditor. Janice Johnson's a Word Clear.
14 Q. If you know.
15 A. I mean, honestly, I actually don't know. I don't
16 think so, actually.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. I do know --
19 Q. There were changes made after this McPherson
20 thing.
21 A. I understand how that could -- I know. I got
22 that.
23 Alain Kartuzinski -- the Senior Case Supervisor,
24 which is Richard Reese, was in L.A. doing training, and he
25 finished that and came back, and he's here. And that was
Page 3636 Image
30
1 about the time when he did this move, when he stopped being
2 the Senior Case Supervisor.
3 Q. The reason why I ask that, because there were a
4 number of changes made within the organization.
5 A. I know. We change all the time.
6 Q. I understand Brian Anderson also had a change of
7 position too.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Were you aware of any Committees of Evidence --
10 would that be the proper term, "Committee of Evidence"? --
11 being --
12 A. Held or --
13 Q. -- convened or held on any individuals that were
14 involved in the Lisa McPherson matter?
15 A. Nope.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. I would have known too, because I was over one
18 division under -- over ethics, personnel; et cetera.
19 don't know of any Committee of Evidence.
20 Q. Well, how about Brian Anderson's?
21 A. Well, he's -- he's actually in a separate --
22 Q. All right. Okay.
23 A. -- unit, so I wouldn't know about that.
24 Q. Okay. How about anybody in the MLO Office, were
25 they reassigned or removed or changed position, as far as
Page 3637 Image
31
1 you know, or would that be another section out of your
2 control, out of your knowledge?
3 A. It's--yeah, I don't -- I don't -- I wasn't
4 intimately involved in anything having to do with afterwards
S at all, so I don't know.
6 Q. Okay. Who was?
7 A. Let me think. I don't know. Marcus Quirino, he
8 would -- he's the executive over Qual, basically, the
9 Division V where the MLO Office is.
10 Q. Quirino is?
11 A. Yeah, or he was.
12 Q. How about Lynn Farney?
13 A. Who?
14 Q. Lynn Farney.
15 A. I don't know that person.
16 Q. How about Humberto or Judy Fontana?
17 A. On whether he would know or not?
18 Q. Yeah. Were they involved in this Lisa McPherson
19 flap?
20 A. I don't know about Judy Fontana, but Humberto
21 probably to -- to a degree if he was coordinator, just like
22 Brian Anderson's position.
23 Q. When did Ben Shaw become involved?
24 A. No idea.
25 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet Glen Steilo?
Page 3638 Image
32
1 A. Yes. Only recently. I didn't -- I didn't know
2 him until recently, actually.
3 Q. From L.A., right?
4 A. Yeah. I didn't know him.
5 Q. Did he talk to you about records or your
6 involvement?
7 A. Well, he -- I don't know. Couple weeks ago he
8 called me over to the Office of Special Affairs, 'cause I
9 was gonna meet the -- my attorney, and he basically told me
10 that -- he didn't say I was being subpoenaed, but he said
11 that the State Attorney wanted to interview me, and
12 specifically they wanted to know about papers regarding
13 daily reports and stuff like that. And I -- that's all he
14 said.
15 Q. Right.
16 Doesn't sound like you have much --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- paper trail involvement.
19 A. Not at all.
20 Q. Never created any and never passed any on?
21 A. No. I mean, when this went down, I hand wrote
22 out, you know -- it was worked out right there, immediately.
23 Q. What did you hand write out?
24 A. The different schedules. Like I don't --
25 wouldn't even necessarily remember anymore, I didn't --
Page 3639 Image
33
1 Q. So you just did it?
2 A. I didn't go into some office and type it all in.
3 Q. You did some of these things, did shifts, and put
4 four hours for you, four hours for you?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. I'm sure they were all very happy with that.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. I'm being facetious. I'm sure the four o'clock in
9 the morning shift was not a desired shift.
10 A. No.
11 It wasn't something that I'm going to go off in
12 the office and sit down in front of a computer and take
13 hours figuring out, because it needed to be done right away.
14 Q. Now, Leslie Woodcraft, was she in your division,
15 in your --
16 A. She was someone junior to me.
17 Q. But also in your section?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. What was her involvement? She helped you with
20 this?
21 A. Yeah, she helped figure out who could go and watch
22 her, basically.
23 Q. And Janet Herring also?
24 A. Janet Herring was basically same level as me.
25 don't know what her involvement was, necessarily.
Page 3640 Image
34
1 I actua1ly don't.
2 Q. Brian Landry?
3 A. Brian Landry.
4 Q. Do you know him?
5 A. I do know him. He's -- he's somebody that just --
6 what was his job at the time? Oh, yeah -- I don't know,
7 he -- I don't know, he probably just went around to -- to
8 try to find where these women were because there was a
9 graduation going on.
10 Q. Did you do anything else in reference to the
11 Lisa McPherson situation that stands out in your mind?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You were just basically involved in organizing the
14 girls' shifts?
15 A. Yeah. I mean, I didn't -- I knew her and I didn't
16 know anything about this until I was actually told. And
17 when I found out, I went out of my way to make sure that she
18 was -- I did whatever I could. You know what I mean? It
19 wasn't necessarily my particular job to go running around
20 and find 20 - 15 women, you know what I mean, to go pull
21 them off their jobs to do, but I did that in order to try to
22 help her out, 'cause I did know her.
23 MR. McGARRY: Okay. If you want to take a
24 break we can, otherwise we can plunge ahead. These
25 guys may have a couple more questions.
Page 3641 Image
35
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's fine.
2 MR. McCARRY: Wayne.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
5 Q. Okay. You said that when you talked to
6 Alain Kartuzinski -- I think first you had a meeting with
7 Fiorretti. Did I say that right?
8 A. It wasn't really a meeting.
9 Q. He just told you to go see him and what was going
10 to happen?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. I didn't get too much on the conversation between
13 you and Alain. Can you give us specifically, you know, in
14 your recollection, what he was saying to you and what was
15 going on?
16 A. Well, I went into his office and, basically, I --
17 I asked him -- basically what happened is, for a couple days
18 it was going on -- it was a situation, because there
19 wasn't -- Lisa McPherson wasn't calming down, okay, is the
20 first thing, and people are having to be called in to -- to
21 help to watch her.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. So then my Senior finally said, You need to go and
24 actually find out from Alain what needs to be done in order
25 to properly handle it. So I went to Alain, and he basically
Page 3642 Image
36
1 responsibility, to do an Internal Investigation as to
2 went wrong here? Would they do that?
3 A. Well, I've -- I've seen them ask questions on
4 various matters, but I -- I don't know what they do with the
5 information, or if they have an organized way of putting it
6 all together and coming up with a report, I don't know. I
7 haven't -- they don't, like, give me reports of what they.
8 do.
9 MR. McGARRY: Off the record.
10 (Off the record.)
11 (Luncheon recess is held.)
12
13 AFTERNOON SESSION
14 MR. McGARRY: Okay. We'll pick up where we
15 left off.
16 I only have a few more questions and they're
17 mostly about this document I've been provided and then
18 the Detectives might have a couple of questions for
19 you.
20 BY MR. McGARRY:
21 Q. This document, you say, was -- you created this
22 document, right, you typed this?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Okay. Was this on a computer or typewriter, or do
25 you remember?
Page 3643 Image
36
1 explained to me what was going on. That she was in -- she
2 wasn't calm at all. In other words, she was very Type III
3 and she -- what do we need to do exactly, I told him. And
4 he explained, two people for four hours a day. Four hours,
5 because the women that were watching her, it was very rough,
6 they were getting black eyes and it was rough emotionally.
7 Q. So this was a violent PTS-III?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And so he explained to me what was going on. And
11 that, basically, the ultimate thing is we wanted to get her
12 put in her room and get her so that she could calm down,
13 fed, and try to get her to get some sleep, 'cause she wasn't
14 sleeping, and that if that was continued and she calmed
15 down, then she would come out of it and start to, like, come
16 to.
17 He did tell me a little bit of a -- of the episode
18 of what was -- when she was running down the street and got
19 picked up by the police. I didn't actually know the time
20 frame of it at all. He said not too long ago. And that's
21 what he had said, so I didn't really know. But he had told
22 me that he -- he knows Lisa McPherson, she trusted him,
23 et cetera, and so he's personally doing -- doing this,
24 basically, to -- he's the one who's -- who's gonna
25 basically, whatever you want to say, be on her case.
Page 3644 Image
37
1 Q. He's going to be the boss, I guess?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And he told me that he went into -- I don't know
5 where she was, but she was totally nuts. And when she had
6 gotten picked up, I don't know if she was in a psych ward or
7 not, but that when she saw him she -- she grabbed his hand
8 and said, I want -- he said she wants to come with me and
9 she said yes, uh-huh, and then she left with him.
10 Q. Okay. So it appeared he had a lot of data on the
11 whole situation?
12 A. Yeah. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And I'm sure he's seen her many times, you know.
15 It's like she definitely knew him.
16 Q. You got the impression that maybe he did auditing
17 on her before?
18 A. I don't think he ever did any auditing, but I
19 don't know.
20 Q. Okay. Would it be unusual, in your knowledge,
21 that -- his title at the time was senior Case Supervisor.
22 Would it be unusual for him to be her Auditor or to take
23 that case on?
24 A. I don't know. It depends. I mean, sometimes when
25 we have a lot of parishioners here they would be called on
Page 3645 Image
38
1 to -- to do auditing. But I don't really know the
2 circumstances.
3 Q. Okay. Now, the day you met with him and got that
4 information, is that the day that you also brought the women
5 back to meet with him?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. I saw him and he -- we went over it. I don't
9 know, it was about a half hour he was telling me what was
10 going on. And then I sent people to go bring the girls
11 here, the different girls to that room.
12 Q. All right. I have some of the previous testimony
13 from some of the women that say that was November 24th, the
14 day after Thanksgiving. Would that kind of -- I know you
15 don't remember.
16 A. What day was that?
17 Q. November 24th, which would have been the day after
18 Thanksgiving, and it would have been a day short of a week
19 that she was there. So does that sound about right to you?
20 A. What weekday?
21 Q. A Friday, November 24th --
22 A. Yeah, that sounds --
23 Q. -- the day after Thanksgiving.
24 That sounds reasonable?
25 A. Yeah, it does.
Page 3646 Image
39
1 Q. All right. You said it wasn't a normal thing for
2 MLO to be involved?
3 A. No, it's not a normal thing.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I mean, it's not -- I said it's not --
6 Q. To your knowledge, it's not a normal thing for
7 them to be involved, MLO?
8 A. No. I mean, it's not a normal thing. This whole
9 thing is not a normal thing is the whole point.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. But it's not -- it's not. necessarily something
12 that's written down of these guys to do this and these guys
13 do that as far as policy.
14 Q. Have you -- we'll go back to the normal. Have you
15 ever been involved in one of these watches before?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen one conducted or heard
18 of one conducted?
19 A. I've heard of a couple.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. But I've been on Staff for 11 years, so probably
22 two.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. And it wasn't any -- anywheres -- it was --
25 Q. This was -- I guess the thing I'm getting at, your
Page 3647 Image
40
1 term "normal," I guess in your -- I have to use your
2 experience as being 13. years on Staff --
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. -- pretty high up, that I have to consider you
5 sort of an expert on the tech compared to us.
6 A. Yeah, I understand.
7 Q. To you, you can't go back to any of the books or
8 any of the tech that Hubbard wrote and show the scenario in
9 writing, this is why you're saying it's not normal. Is that
10 what I'm getting at?
11 A. Well, the -- it's not normal because -- because we
12 deal in actually helping people spiritually, you're not
13 going to tend to have people that have mental situations
14 going on, to put it in very -- I don't know, whatever terms.
15 But at the Church here, we don't -- we don't actually -- we
16 ask people if they've ever had any psychotic breaks and
17 things like that, they're not allowed there for service.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And the reason why is because we're not -- we
20 don't believe in psychiatry, necessarily, and -- or
21 absolutely not, but we also are not a mental hospital type
22 thing.
23 Q. So you're not equipped to deal with psychotic
24 personalities?
25 A. No.
Page 3648 Image
41
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. So that's why it's not -- that's why I said it's
3 not a normal thing. And the reason why I say, I've heard a
4 couple watches, like every once in a while we do have
5 somebody that actually does have something like that, and
6 they'll be told and then somebody will stay with them until
7 they leave.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And sometimes we'll tell their -- but it's not
10 like -- it's not a normal thing.
11 Q. Not a normal thing, okay.
12 You talked about Alain talking to the women and
13 you overhearing the conversation and that he said, you know,
14 have to keep her quiet, fed, drinking water.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then you said Heather Petzold explained, since she
17 was already there and took care of her, how to make her eat.
18 Can you tell me how she said to make her eat?
19 A. Well, she basically said you would get the food
20 and sort of put it in front of her, and try to get her --
21 just, you know, try to persuade her. That was basically it.
22 Q. All right. Have you ever had a Sec Check or a
23 Security Check?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Have you had a Sec. Check in reference to
Page 3649 Image
42
1 Lisa McPherson's case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Did you ever go -- go by the room where
4 Lisa was staying? Did you go by there at all in your normal
5 travels and duties?
6 A. No. I mean, I actually didn't know the exact
7 room, necessarily. I knew the general area, but I
8 didn't ...
9 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you, people have
10 described it as a Security Guard outside. I was wondering
11 if you ever witnessed any of that, with the Security Guard?
12 A. I didn't witness that. I heard that there was
13 one, just in case for some reason she got even more crazy
14 and two women couldn't just keep her calmed down, there was
15 one, but I never heard of anything -- him having to do
16 anything, just sit there.
17 Q. All right. Did you already have the authority --
18 and I know the Senior thing. I'm trying to keep up with
19 some of the technology or the vocabulary.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Did you have the authority straight out in the
22 position that you held to order the Deputy MLO, which would
23 have been Laura, and the Office Manager of MLO, to the watch
24 or did that authority come from someone else?
25 A. It was basically my -- my authority;
Page 3650 Image
43
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I later then told their immediate Seniors that
3 they're going to do that, and there's nothing they can do
4 about that thing.
5 Q. You were over those people?
6 A. I was Senior.
7 Q. They weren't in your direct line chain of
8 command --
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. -- but your position. held you as a Senior to them?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. No one ever attempted to tell you that you
13 had to be quarantined on this, because you had no contact
14 with her?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. We've had testimony from some of the
17 ladies -- now, I know that you talked about scheduling these
18 things with two women, four hours.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they were there. We've had some testimony
21 from women, after the schedules were made up and basically
22 into the watch that some of them pulled 12-hour duty and
23 some of them pulled 24-hour duty.
24 Were you aware of that and what was happening with
25 that or were you involved in that?
Page 3651 Image
44
1 A. I wasn't aware of any 24-hour thing. I do know
2 there was a couple problems after that. Like one -- one of
3 the women, Patrizia Strazner, watched her and then refused
4 to do it, because it was too much for her. And so there was
5 some short amount of time, but I don't know about -- I
6 didn't know anything about a 24-hour.
7 Before this/whole thing where we were putting
8 several women on the watch there was 12-hour --
9 Q. Shifts?
10 A. -- shifts, like, and that -- and that wasn't --
11 Q. That would have been that previous week?
12 A. That was part of the problem, the women were
13 completely exhausted. I mean, they would be -- they would
14 eat, but ...
15 Q. You set the watch schedule up. Did you set it --
16 how did you set it up not knowing how long she was going to
17 be there? How did that happen? Did you set a week at a
18 I time, like, the 24th of November?
19 A. No. It was just right now this is what it is.
20 Q. So for how many days was it, do you remember?
21 A. It wasn't necessarily -- it was just going to be,
22 they're going to do it right now.
23 Alain Kartuzinski thought in a few days she would
24 be able to be calmed down.
25 Q. Okay.
Page 3652 Image
45
1 A. I mean, that was the general idea.
2 Q. Okay. So who -- what I'm trying to get at is, who
3 would have been in charge of continuing the scheduling for
4 this watch? Apparently you didn't do it.
5 A. Yeah. Olivier.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I mean
8 Q. All right.
9 A. I mean, basically I did it.
10 Q. You started it out?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. You came up with the program and then somebody
13 else continued it?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. What -- can you tell me what RTC is?
16 A. Religious Technology Center.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. That's basically, L. Ron Hubbard signed over the
19 trademarks to Religious Technology Center, the trademarks of
20 Dianetics and Scientology, basically to protect Dianetics
21 and Scientology, because in the past there were several
22 different instances where certain people have tried to alter
23 it or even --
24 Q. Copyright violations?
25 A. Copyright violations or even -- some guy even
Page 3653 Image
46
1 ripped off Dianetics as a subject completely once.
2 So they were -- L. Ron Hubbard signed over all
3 rights to them. And basically, the reason why they're --
4 they're in several different organizations, there's a couple
5 members in several of the advance organizations around the
6 planet, and they're there to actually look into and make
7 sure that the technology is being applied exactly as the way
8 L. Ron Hubbard laid it out.
9 Q. All right. Why would RTC have involvement in
10 this? Now, this is after Lisa dies. Why would RTC have
11 involvement in this Lisa McPherson incident after she dies?
12 MR. LAURO: First of all, do you know that
13 RTC was involved?
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know
15 that.
16 Q. All right. I think my question is, since she's 11
17 years as a Staff, if you can tell me, with your knowledge of
18 the tech or organization, the way the organization's made
19 up, why would RTC have involvement? I don't understand.
20 They're kind of protecting trademarks, but yet I have
21 information that they were involved in the Lisa McPherson
22 case afterwards.
23 A. Well, the thing that I -- I mean, I don't know any
24 personal Com cycles or anything like that, I never saw them.
25 The only thing I can think of is, she's a parishioner and
Page 3654 Image
47
1 obviously as a parishioner I'm sure they checked into the
2 matter because she was crazy, and this is something that was
3 on -- it was a Church member.
4 Q. One of the things I found interesting is that you
5 said that they were to make sure that the tech was followed?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Yeah. So that's the only thing --
9 Q. So tech, we could use a word like rules? Could we
10 use a word like rules? I guess you call technology or
11 his--
12 A. There's an exact way you do processing.
13 Q. Processing, okay.
14 A. So that's -- when I say there's -- you know, you
15 do A, B, C, D.
16 Q. I got the impression, maybe I'm wrong, I got the
17 impression this was the organization or this is the
18 organization that checks up on the other organizations to
19 make sure they're doing right. Is that correct? Do I
20 assume that?
21 A. Yeah. I mean, yes, they don't have anything to do
22 with organizationally, only that the technology of Dianetics
23 and Scientology is actually being applied correctly.
24 Q. Okay. Does the RTC have their own people that
25 would conduct Sec Checks? Would that be --
Page 3655 Image
48
3. A. I don't really know whether -- they do have that
2 training and they could do that. They would -- they could
3 interview somebody.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And
6 Q. Let me ask you --
7 A. They don't have somebody -- they don't have
8 somebody that has a job called that.
9 Q. Maybe I can make an analogy, and tell me if it's a
10 correct analogy or not. In the police department we have
11 our Internal Affairs, our people that police the police to
12 make sure we're following the rules and doing the right
13 thing. Is that what the RTC is to the
14 Church of Scientology?
15 A. Somewhat, but not really.
16 Q. Not totally, but --
17 A. It's more -- it's exactly what I said, because
18 it's a little bit to police the Church of Scientology to
19 make sure we're always applying the technology correctly,
20 but it's also externally
21 Q. To protect the Church --
22 A. People have taken actual materials and put them
23 over the Internet, people tried to take Dianetics and
24 various things. So it's not the same thing, necessarily.
25 Q. The RTC personnel, where do they fit in that
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1 scheme of the hierarchy as far as Seniors?
2 A. You want me to draw something out?
3 Q. Well, would they -- I'm just saying, would they --
4 if they came from Los Angeles RTC, would they automatically
5 be the Senior to everyone in Clearwater?
6 A. Yeah. I mean, you could say.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. They don't -- I don't know if you could -- maybe I
9 could draw something.
10 MR. McGARRY: Here you go.
11 Q. Sure.
12 A. Okay. So we could say this is RTC right here.
13 And this -- it's totally -- it's over here, because it's
14 like --
15 Q. Separate from everything?
16 A. Like I already explained. And you could say this
17 is in Los Angeles. You could say this is
18 Church of Scientology Int, International, so COS Int, and
19 then there are different charges, which is our Church, the
20 largest charge, so it's like that. That's basically how it
21 is.
22 Q. Basically, our Internal Affairs, they work
23 directly for the Legal.
24 Who would be in RTC? Do you know what I mean?
25 Obviously, I don't mean by names, there are so many people
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1 that are up in the thing. I read a lot of things, like
2 David Mescavage being a leader and Hebert Jenczh. Are these
3 people RTC?
4 A. Chairman of the Board is, but not Hebert Jenczh.
5 Q. Is that Dave Miscavige, Chairman of the Board?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Hebert Jenczh would be the top of the spiritual
8 side--
9 A. Let me show you.
10 Q. -- International?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. I was told Jane Jenczh was --
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. If somebody told me Jane Jenczh was RTC, she would
15 be over there with the Chairman of the Board in RTC?
16 A. Yeah, but I don't know.
17 Q. I'm just trying to figure out the organization.
18 A. But I don't know her.
19 Q. No, I don't know her either.
20 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's all the
21 questions I have. Thank you.
22 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I might have a couple,
23 but I haven't got too many.
24 THE WITNESS: Just to make something clear,
25 Chairman of the Board had no involvement in this and he
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1 wasn't in Clearwater, just --
2 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay. Got it.
3 THE WITNESS: I know for a fact, okay?
4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay. Got it.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
7 Q. Chairman of the Board is Miscavige?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you involved in another watch or were you
10 aware that Lisa was at the Fort Harrison in July of 1995?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You weren't aware of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. When you talked with Mr. Kartuzinski in the
15 beginning, did he explain to you how paperwork should be
16 handled?
17 A. You mean as far as daily reports?
18 Q. Daily reports.
19 A. He didn't explain to me. He was -- he had to tell
20 them, because he knew I was only there to actually provide
21 some people, basically.
22 Q. Okay. Did you overhear him tell them about
23 paperwork?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Tell me what he said.
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1 A. He basically said, You need to do daily reports.
2 Q. Daily reports?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. So they were ordered to do reports daily?
5 A. Yes. Yeah.
6 Q. And do what with those reports?
7 A. I think it was to bring them up to his office, but
8 I'm not sure, but it was to turn them in.
9 Q. Turn them in?
10 A. To him.
11 Q. To him?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Regardless of how they got there, their
14 ultimate --
15 A. Yeah, would be to him.
16 Q. -- destination was Mr. Kartuzinski?
17 A. Yeah. So he could --
18 Q. Is that correct?
19 A. -- find out what -- how she was doing.
20 Q. And they were supposed to be done daily?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And do you surmise that that would have
23 been done during the duration of her stay there? I mean,
24 there wasn't any time when the reports weren't required?
25 A. Not -- I mean, I don't -- I don't know.
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1 Q. But his orders were daily reports?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I mean, I don't know whether -- anyways, that's
5 fine, I'm just assuming.
6 Q. Go ahead.
7 A. Just I don't know whether every single day --
8 sometimes when. it's -- when it would get crazy, I don't
9 know, I mean, Patrizia Strazner, I don't know, she
10 completely decided not to -- not to do it again. I don't
11 think she did a daily report that day. She was very upset.
12 Q. Where would all these reports end up, ultimately?
13 A. I don't know. With Alain, basically.
14 Q. So he would read those reports?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And then where would they go?
17 A. I don't know whether they would go in her
18 Case Supervisor -- her folder or not. She might -- I mean,
19 I don't know. That's not necessarily something that's
20 always going into that folder.
21 Q. But they always go to a folder somewhere? I mean,
22 there's a lot of folders, I understand that.
23 A. Actually, I don't know, 'cause I don't know.
24 Q. Okay. Did you write any reports?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Anything at all concerning this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Nothing, okay.
4 Did you ever hear any conversation about, either
5 from Alain or Janice or anyone involved in this case, about
6 Lisa being given any medications?
7 A. Nope.
8 Q. So you had no knowledge of any medications or
9 prescriptions having been written?
10 A. Unh-unh.
11 Q. Were you aware that Dr. Houghton was on the
12 schedule?
13 Did you know Dr. Houghton, the dentist?
14 A. I don't know when he saw her, but I don't -- he
15 wasn't on the schedule I put. He's a man. I --
16 Q. You didn't schedule him?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know that he visited?
19 A. I don't know personally that he even went inside,
20 necessarily.
21 Q. I understand.
22 A. But I do know that he knew about this -- the
23 circumstance, basically.
24 Q. How do you know that?
25 A. I don't know. I think I -- I talked to him once
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55
1 or something in their office and he knew about it. I don't
2 know exactly, but ...
3 Q. In whose office?
4 A. In the Medical Liaison Office.
5 Q. So he was there talking to who?
6 A. I don't know. I don't know. There was a few
7 times that I went into the Medical Liaison Office just for
8 myself to go in 'cause of post cycles, and I think I talked
9 to him casually about that. He knew about it. I didn't
10 know anything further than he knew about it, just because
11 the Medical Office, you know, most of the -- the women were
12 watching her and things like that.
13 Q. Was that before what you call this flap or
14 afterwards?
15 A. Well, what I'm talking the flap is that she was in
16 this Type III situation.
17 Q. I understand.
18 A. So it was --
19 Q. Is that before or after?
20 A. It would have been after.
21 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a Dr. Minkoff?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you talk to him about this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Either during or after?
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56
1 A. No. I know Dr. Minkoff, just 'cause he's only a
2 few blocks away from us, but ...
3 Q. Okay. Is part of his job -- does he come to the
4 Fort Harrison to see people, to see parishioners or Staff?
5 A. You mean as a medical thing?
6 Q. As a medical doctor.
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You don't know?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is it unusual if a member of the Public, the
11 parishioners, end up at a hospital that many -- that people
12 go there to see these parishioners, to call on these
13 parishioners, or are you familiar with that process at all?
14 A. You mean if a parishioner goes to a hospital?
15 Q. Say a parishioner gets in a car accident, goes to
16 the hospital. Is it the usual procedure for members of the
17 Church to show up at that hospital?
18 A. Yeah, it is actually usual. If -- if somebody --
19 if a parishioner ends up in the hospital or gets hurt or
20 something, it is usual that we would send somebody out to
21 help them.
22 Q. So it's not unusual that the Senior Case
23 Supervisor and people from OSA show up at the hospital? For
24 them to show up at the hospital is usual procedure?
25 A. I don't know. I don't know what happened.
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57
1 Q. Well, would that be usual procedure?
2 A. I don't know. I don't even know that happened.
3 Q. Did you have authority to stop the watch, say
4 Lisa's going to a hospital, going to a doctor? Did you have
5 that authority?
6 A. That -- not particularly. It was Alain.
7 Q. That was Alain's authority?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. What if you said to Alain, Lisa needs to go to the
10 hospital, could you make that decision over his head?
11 A. Yeah, but I --
12 Q. You could have made that decision?
13 A. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how -- I couldn't
14 necessarily order Alain on anything having to do with this,
15 other than if I knew that she needed to go to the hospital
16 when I was being told anything, then I would have made sure
17 that somebody got her to the hospital. You know what I
18 mean.
19 Q. Did anybody ever come to you and say, listen, this
20 is out of hand, something needs to be done, she's pretty
21 sick physically, we need to do something? Anybody ever come
22 to you, tell you that?
23 A. Nobody said that, no.
24 Q. What did they say?
25 A. I mean -- I mean, Alain -- Alain told me she
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1 wasn't doing well at the time when I got all these women
2 together. That's when he said that. So that's when I went
3 and got a bunch of women to do that, that's when that
4 happened.
5 Q. Did he ever suggest that maybe there will come a
6 time we have to take her to the hospital?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Apparently she was being prepared mentally for an
9 Introspection Rundown, right?
10 A. I don't know. He actually never said that. He
11 said --
12 Q. He said session?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Are there different sessions that she could have
15 been being prepared for?
16 A. Probably, but I'm not --
17 Q. And those are services that -- that are sold or
18 that are given to parishioners?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And there are charges for those different
21 sessions?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Is it unusual to -- to have someone that is
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1 Public --
2 A. Can I just go back really fast --
3 Q. Yeah.
4 A. -- on the sessions?
5 Q. Sure.
6 A. What I remember Alain -- basically, the first
7 purpose is to get her to come out of the Type III
8 circumstance. So that's why we were doing this watch. And
9 then what I remember is, we would follow it up with some
10 sessions to get her to totally -- because, first of all,
11 they have to come out of being Type III. If she's still
12 Type III, she would not be given any auditing, and that is a
13 normal procedure.
14 Q. And you don't normally?
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. You said yourself you don't necessarily deal with
17 or try not to deal with people that are Type III or PTS.
18 A. Right. But there is written down different things
19 that L. Ron Hubbard said.
20 Q. If I read you correctly, you said that --
21 obviously, you don't believe in psychiatry?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And you said that initially if someone came to you
24 who was --
25 A. We really don't believe in psychiatry, they drug
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60
1 people. So it doesn't really handle anything.
2 Q. Please let me finish.
3 Prospective member of the Church that you
4 interviewed initially, and what I got out earlier, if you
5 felt that that person was going to be that way, you could
6 deny access to the Church?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So the option -- you don't actually believe in
9 psychiatry, but the option would be not to deal with them?
10 A. Right this second, yes. But we have the thing set
11 up, there are people in Scientology that are doing things
12 with mental health and try to set up -- like in Italy, we
13 just have human -- Commission on Human Rights turned a
14 psychiatry ward into a place where they can just go and
15 rest, instead of getting drugs and lobotomies and electric
16 shock.
17 Q. Did you have knowledge as to whether or not Lisa
18 was held at all times at the Cabana? Was she taken anywhere
19 else?
20 A. No, I don't know.
21 Q. You don't know?
22 A. I mean, I don't think so. I seriously don't think
23 so, but ...
24 Q. Did you schedule, along with scheduling the
25 caretakers, did you schedule the Security people too?
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61
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who did that?
3 A. Probably Arthur Baxter.
4 Q. How many -- you also mentioned 15 to 20 women that
5 were scheduled on this watch.
6 A. Yeah, well, I'd have to count it. I'm probably
7 exaggerating, but ...
8 Q. Do you have a copy of that list of the women that
9 were on the watch?
10 A. No. I mean, I'd have to -- he even asked. I had
11 to sit down and write them out.
12 Q. So you were able to remember how many?.
13 A. Well, I don't remember -- I think it was --
14 think it's eight or nine, actually, but --
15 Q. So it wasn't 15 or 20, it was eight or nine?
16 A. Yeah, it wasn't 15 or 20.
17 Q. Would you be able to write us -- give us a list of
18 people you could remember that were on the watch?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: Do you still have the piece of
21 paper?
22 MR. LAURO: No. If you want to write it
23 down --
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: We can do that when we
25 are done here. I'd just ask if you'd do that today
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62
1 when we're done here before we leave.
2 Q. Would it be allowable -- and I know how you feel
3 about PTS and Type III -- would it be allowable under
4 certain circumstances if a PTS or Type III became violent to
5 subdue that person either physically or with straps or
6 something, like they do in some places if they're really
7 violent?
8 A. If the person is coming at you trying to punch you
9 in the face, you would do something to try to restrain them.
10 Q. I understand.
11 A. But we don't -- I don't know, I don't think
12 anybody would strap somebody down.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. You know, absolutely not. Maybe, you know,
15 physically hold them to get them to sit down or to move away
16 or something like that, but it's not anything other than to
17 protect the person that's there trying to get them to eat,
18 sleep and calm down. You know what I mean.
19 Q. Were you -- you said that you were aware of women
20 who were hit or struck?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. How many women? I mean, it sounds like there was
23 more than one black eye or --
24 A. I know Joan Stevens.
25 Q. Okay. That's one.
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1 A. She has a black eye. Sylvia, I think she was
2 swung at a few times at least, minimally. I don't know.
3 Q. So you're talking one person that was struck that
4 you know of?
5 A. That was -- physically got a black eye.
6 Q. That you know?
7 A. I know every single one of them probably got hit
8 once or twice, but actually with a big bruise on their face
9 was Joan.
10 Q. Some of the caretakers testified that they were
11 given hand-held radios to communicate with Security. Were
12 you aware of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And they also testified there were occasions
15 Security had to come into the room to hold down Lisa to help
16 subdue her. Were you aware of that?
17 A. No. No idea.
18 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything
19 else. Thank you.
20 MR. McGARRY: All right. That will do it.
21 (WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE SWORN STATEMENT WAS
22 CONCLUDED AT 10:30 A.M.)
23
24
25
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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4
5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
7 WITNESS my hand and official seal this __29th_ day
of __August____, 1997.
8
9 __________________________________
RUTH M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
15
(I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and
17 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.
18 (I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
19 I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
20 interested in the action.
21
(DATED this __29th__ day if ___August_______,
22 1997.
23
24
_______________________
25 RUTH M. MARTIN, RMR
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