Lisa McPherson Files - Statement of Glen Edward Steilo
This is the statement of Glen Edward Steilo, a Scientologist who was
appointed as "Custodian of Records" in the Lisa McPherson case.
1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
______________________________/
STATEMENT OF: GLEN EDWARD STEILO
DATE: July 24, 1997
TIME: Began: 2:15 p.m.
Ended: 5:15 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/ CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
DOUGLAS CROW, ESQUIRE
3 Office of the State Attorney
Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
4 Clearwater, Florida 33760
Attorney for State of Florida
5
MORRIS "SANDY" WEINBERG, ESQUIRE
6 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP
SunTrust Financial Centre, Suite 2525
7 401 East Jackson Street
Tampa, Florida 33602
8 -and-
DELMAR LEE FUGATE, ESQUIRE
9 Icot Center, Suite 108
13630 58th Street North
10 Clearwater, Florida 33760
Attorney for the Witness
11
ALSO PRESENT:
12
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
13 City of Clearwater Police Department
14
15
16
17
18
19 I N D E X
PAGE
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY MR. CROW 113
22
23 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 155
24
25
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1 The deponent herein,
2 GLEN EDWARD STEILO,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. All right. State your name, please.
9 A. My name is Glen Edward Steilo.
10 Q. And your date of birth?
11 A. X, 1950.
12 MR. McGARRY: Okay. Before we get started,
13 do you or your lawyers want to put anything on the
14 record in reference to him being here pursuant to a
15 subpoena?
16 MR. FUGATE: Right. I was just going to get
17 the subpoena out.
18 He is here pursuant to the subpoena. You've
19 got the style, if you've got it there, to read into the
20 record. And he's prepared to testify under that
21 subpoena about the issues. And we've given him a copy
22 of the letter to read, which is Mr. Crow's letter of
23 July 16th, 1997. And he's obviously had a copy of the
24 State Attorney's Investigation Subpoena 40-86-61, I
25 think that's the same, and 62 to refer to. And I'll
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1 give it to him.
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. All right. Well, this will be considerably
4 shorter if you've got the results of the items that I've
5 subpoenaed. And I take it you do not?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Okay. So then this will be longer then that
8 route.
9 Let me get some background from you and then
10 we'll -- I'll let you make kind of -- I'm sure you have a
11 statement as to what you've done in reference to this case.
12 And then from there I'll have some additional questions, as
13 will the -- as will the Detective and Mr. Crow, I'm sure.
14 How long have you been with the Church?
15 A. I've been a Scientologist since 1974.
16 Q. All right. And how long have you been in
17 Clearwater?
18 A. I've been in Clearwater twice. First time from
19 1981 until 1985, and recently since December 15th, 1996,
20 until the present.
21 Q. All right. Let's back up and cover when you first
22 became a Scientologist. What -- what city was that?
23 A. It was actually Fort Hood, Texas. The
24 Church of Scientology there in Austin, Texas, is where I
25 became a Scientologist.
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1 Q. All right. And were you what they call Staff in
2 Texas or did you -- were you just a public member?
3 A. Parishioner.
4 Q. Okay. And did you ever become a Staff member when
5 you were in Texas?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Was there a time that you became Staff and
8 eventually moved to Clearwater?
9 A. Yes. Actually, I became a Staff member of the
10 Church of Scientologist in Munich, Germany. That was in,
11 let's see, the 1st of April, 1977.
12 Q. Okay. So you went from Texas to Munich?
13 A. To Germany, actually. More correctly to
14 Idar-Oberstein, Germany.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Just so it's clear, he was in
16 the Service. He went to the Citadel. And there
17 might --
18 Q. The reason you went to Germany was for the
19 Service, not the Church?
20 A. Yes, exactly.
21 Q. So you came back here. And did you come back from
22 Germany to Texas?
23 A. No. What I did was, precisely, left from Texas to
24 Germany. I performed a year of military duty in
25 Idar-Oberstein, and then I left the Service to join the
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1 Church Staff in Munich. And I worked for Munich -- I worked
2 in Munich from -- let's see, it was April, 1977, until
3 August of 1981. And that's when I came -- from August,
4 1981, I came directly here to Clearwater.
5 Q. Were you still a member of the Service at that
6 time or had you been discharged?
7 A. No. I'd been discharged in 1977.
8 Q. All right. So the purpose of you moving to
9 Clearwater was for -- to continue working with the Church as
10 a Staff member?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was your position when you first came here in
13 '81?
14 A. When I first came here I was, let's see, in charge
15 of the Church's public relations and legal matters.
16 Q. And that was in '81?
17 A. 1981.
18 Q. All right. And that lasted how long?
19 A. That lasted until -- let's see. It was about six
20 months. In other words, I was supervising those two areas.
21 And then in six months I moved into solely legal matters.
22 Q. Okay. And when you say "solely legal matters,"
23 what -- give us an idea what you're talking about.
24 A. Well, more specifically, I started working in
25 something called Rudiments. That's the Church's term for
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1 requirements of law that the Church has to meet;
2 specifically, tax filings, payments.
3 Q. Okay. What is your educational background?
4 A. Bachelor of Science, mathematics.
5 Q. All right. Do you have any legal training?
6 A. Only under the Church's attorneys. Strictly
7 hands-on type training.
8 Q. And that occurred when?
9 A. Well, that's occurred since 1981 until the
10 present.
11 Q. Okay. How long did that period last, from '81
12 until when?
13 A. 1985.
14 Q. '85. Then you left Clearwater?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where did you go?
17 A. Los Angeles, California.
18 Q. And why did you go there?
19 A. To work in what we call the -- the
20 Church of Scientology International and in the
21 Office of Special Affairs there.
22 Q. All right. Was that a transfer that you requested
23 or something that the Church suggested you do?
24 A. I actually requested it.
25 Q. All right. And how long did that last?
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1 A. That was from, let's see, 1985 until 1996.
2 Q. All right. So you weren't here during the period.
3 of time that Lisa McPherson was involved with the Church
4 then, right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. That was when you were in L.A.?
7 A. That's right:
8 Q. So let me write that date down so I can use it in
9 reference. You got back here in what month? ,
10 A. December 15th, 1996.
11 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
12 BY MR. McGARRY:
13 Q. All right. Why were you. transferred back to
14 Clearwater?
15 A. Well, on that particular date I came here with the
16 Church attorney regarding this matter.
17 Q. This matter?
18 A. The McPherson matter.
19 Q. And what attorney was that?
20 A. Elliott Abelson.
21 Q. So you came specifically back to Clearwater in
22 reference to this case?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. What -- in your conversations with Mr. Abelson,
25 what were your duties going to be? What was the purpose for
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1 you coming --
2 MR. FUGATE: We're going to impose an
3 objection because that's going into --
4 MR. McGARRY: I'll rephrase it.
5 MR. CROW: Don't rephrase.
6 What's your objection?
7 MR. FUGATE: Well, the objection is that
8 you're getting into -- he was assigned to work on legal
9 matters with counsel for the Church . And in fact,
10 currently he's on the team that works with
11 Mr. Weinberg, Laura Vaughn, myself, and we don't want
12 him getting into any of those sorts of conversations.
13 What he did -- if you want to ask him what he did --
14 MR. CROW: Go ahead and ask the question. If
15 he refuses to answer, then we'll take it from there.
16 BY MR. McGARRY:
17 Q. All right. What is it you came from L.A. to do?
18 A. Well, to do what Mr. Abelson needed for me to do,
19 literally. He was going -- he -- he came here because of
20 the McPherson matter. He was going to look into the legal
21 matters of the case. And actually, all I did was follow his
22 directions at that time.
23 Q. How long was he here?
24 A. He was here until about -- and I'm not too clear
25 on this. It was about February, I believe, January or
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1 February.
2 Q. All right. Who were the lawyers here locally that
3 you worked with for the Church? Not these lawyers, the
4 lawyers with the Church.
5 A. At that particular time there was no one. I was
6 working for Elliott Abelson.
7 Q. He's the only one?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. 'here weren't any other local.-attorneys other than
10 these two that were working with the Church?
11 A. There were other counsel, but I wasn't working
12 with them.
13 Q. Who were they?
14 A. There was Mr. Robert Johnson and I believe
15 Mr. Paul Johnson. No others that I'm aware of.
16 MR. CROW: Is Mr. Abelson licensed to
17 practice law --
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 MR. McGARRY: -- in Florida? That is the
20 question.
21 MR. CROW: In Florida?
22 THE WITNESS: In Florida, I don't know.
23 MR. CROW: Is he licensed in California?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 MR. CROW: Okay. It was your understanding
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1 that your conversations with him were privileged at the
2 time?
3 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
4 MR. CROW: Okay.
5 BY MR. McGARRY:
6 Q. All right. Why don't you give us -- so you
7 weren't -- so you have been the Custodian of Records for the
8 Church right now since you got here, is that what you're
9 telling us?
10 A. No, since April 23rd: April 23rd.
11 Q. Okay. Who was the custodian for service of
12 subpoenas in Clearwater prior to you?
13 A. I don't know.
14 MR. WEINBERG: If you know.
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. So you don't know whose job you took over?
17 A. I don't think I took over anyone's job. I think
18 that -- I think our counsel were answering the subpoenas.
19 Q. You're not aware of -- of a Custodian of Records
20 for the Church prior to you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is there anybody else in the Church that accepts
23 subpoenas for the Church other than you?
24 A. The counsel. Our counsel.
25 Q. Well --
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1 A. That would be Mr. --
2 Q. These people have only been involved in the case
3 since Lisa McPherson died. I'm talking generally, the
4 Church, who did they designate as the accepter for service
5 for any --
6 MR. WEINBERG: That's a different issue than
7 who's a Custodian of Records.
8 Q. Who was their Custodian of Records prior you to
9 guys accepting service?
10 A. I don't know. I don't.
11 MR. CROW: Well, are you a
12 Custodian of Records?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 MR. CROW: What does that mean?
15 THE WITNESS: That means specifically in
16 regard to this case to search for and obtain different
17 documents with regards to this matter and safeguard
18 them.
19 MR. CROW: On a daily basis, do you have any
20 control over the records in the Church? I mean, do you
21 maintain them?
22 THE WITNESS: These, yes.
23 MR. CROW: I'm talking about the records
24 generally.
25 THE WITNESS: No.
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1 MR. CROW: So did you personally seize these
2 records?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Seize?
4 MR. CROW: Or get them, whatever term you
5 like.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I got them.
7 MR. FUGATE: So -- so we don't waste a lot of
8 time and there's not any misunderstandings here, and if
9 you want -- if you want to ask him, fine.
10 We basically, after some discussions, decided
11 there had to be somebody designated that you guys could
12 talk to as a Custodian of Records, who would actually
13 take custody of the records and also would do a
14 documented, that is, a written documented search for
15 the records that were being subpoenaed. And
16 unfortunately, I guess poor Mr. Steilo, he was selected
17 as the person. And he can go through with you all what
18 he did from that point on to get the records.
19 The short answer to where you're going, I
20 think, is that he doesn't -- he's not a
21 Custodian of Records, records don't flow through him in
22 the normal course of Church business, to my knowledge.
23 He's designated for this case for the specific purpose
24 of you folks having somebody that you can talk to and
25 ask questions about how the search is conducted, where
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1 it's conducted, who was contacted, and what he got as a
2 result of it.
3 MR. WEINBERG: And what he didn't get. There
4 is -- Doug, there is no position in most corporations
5 of Custodian of Records. There's presidents and
6 there's secretaries and there's vice-presidents, but
7 there's no such thing --
8 MR. CROW: I don't want a lecture on
9 corporation --
10 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
11 There's no such thing. No one gets hired to
12 be a Custodian of Records.
13 You have served a subpoena on the corporation
14 asking for the production of documents, and -- and just
15 as you've done in many other cases. And corporations
16 decide who it designates, and it can designate anybody
17 to be the custodian. And we had -- the Church has
18 designated Mr. Steilo for purposes of this subpoena to
19 be the Custodian of Records, which -- and he can tell
20 what he did, you know, what he's still doing.
21 MR. McGARRY: I think it would be important
22 for us to find out though who the records custodian is.
23 BY MR. McGARRY:
24 Q. Is there a records custodian in the Church, can
25 you answer that, prior to you?
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1 A. There's -- no, sir, I don't believe there's one
2 individual that, as Sandy and Lee were describing, that all
3 the files or records flow through. The -- the Church is
4 organized into different departments and, well,. files and
5 records can be obtained or searched for in different -- you
6 know, in those different departments. And there are
7 individuals who are responsible for those records in those
8 departments, but ...
9 Q. What did you do between December and April?
10 A. December and April?
11 MR. WEINBERG: With regard to what, Mark?
12 MR. McGARRY: This case. The whole purpose
13 of him being here --
14 MR. WEINBERG: We would object to that.
15 You're asking him for privileged information, work
16 product. He's already told you he worked with the
17 lawyers. We're not going to allow him to describe to
18 you what he did in working with us because that's
19 privileged. If you ask him what he did with regard to
20 production of documents --
21 MR. McGARRY: That's what I did. I asked him
22 what he did between December and April.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm saying we're objecting to
24 that question, you're calling for privileged
25 information and work product. What he did, he was
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1 working with us. You can't ask me what I did
2 between -- between December and April as to this case.
3 MR. CROW: We're not -- we're not necessarily
4 asking you, but you designated him as a witness and
5 we're asking him. If he doesn't want to answer, he
6 doesn't want to answer.
7 MR. WEINBERG: That's an objection. I'm
8 instructing him not to answer that. If the question is
9 what did he do with regard to the collection and
10 production of documents, he's here to answer those
11 questions.
12 MR. CROW: Okay. Well, let's start out with,
13 what did you do between December and April?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, privileged, work
15 product. Instruct you not to answer.
16 MR. CROW: Okay. Is everything you did
17 between December and April privileged?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, work product,
19 privileged. Instruct you not to answer.
20 And, you know, what --
21 MR. CROW: How can that --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Look, that's my objection.
23 Ask him a specific question as to what he was called
24 here to testify about. He was called here, as the
25 subpoena says, as records custodian with regard to
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1 production of documents.
2 MR. CROW: You designated him a custodian.
3 That's what you told us his function was.
4 MR. WEINBERG: That's what he is.
5 MR. CROW: I want to know what he was doing
6 in -- in regards to the McPherson matter --
7 MR. WEINBERG: And I told you that is
8 privileged, work product.
9 MR. CROW: I just asked him if everything he
10 did was privileged and that --
11 MR. WEINBERG: That calls for a legal
12 conclusion. And he's not going to answer that
13 question, Doug.
14 MR. CROW: Okay. You're refusing to answer
15 that question?
16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm instructing him not to
17 answer the question.
18 MR. CROW: He still has to say yes or no,
19 he's following your advice.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm following
22 Mr. Weinberg's advice.
23 MR. CROW: Okay. And so you won't answer the
24 question of whether everything you did between December
25 and April is privileged?
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1 THE WITNESS: I was working for them, and if
2 that was privileged --
3 MR. CROW: Did you have any other functions
4 other than working for the lawyers?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 MR. CROW: Okay.
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. What were those?
9 A. To ensure that Church legal matters, Church
10 internal matters were done concurrent with laws.
11 Q. The laws of the Church?
12 A. Laws of -- no, no. The State of Florida,
13 United States. For instance, I'm a specialist in
14 immigration law. And we have to ensure that everyone who
15 comes to the United States has a proper Visa, so I supervise
16 an individual who ensures that that occurs.
17 Q. All right. Let's go through it this way: Did you
18 have an explanation for us that you were going to give us as
19 to why these subpoenas weren't complied with?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. They are complied
21 with. You've asked us to produce documents and we've
22 produced --
23 MR. CROW: Why don't you let him answer the
24 question.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm objecting to the question,
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1 to the form of the question.
2 MR. CROW: No, you're answering the question
3 for him. If it's --
4 MR. WEINBERG: No. Mark, we're not here to
5 argue with you.
6 MR. CROW: It sounds like you are.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Mark has said we're not
8 complying with the subpoenas. We are complying with
9 the subpoenas. We have produced what we have found.
10 He's here to explain to you what the process is.
11 MR. CROW: He's capable of saying that.
12 MR. WEINBERG: But I object to the question.
13 BY MR. McGARRY:
14 Q. Do you have an explanation, a set explanation that
15 you came here to sit down and tell us about why there are
16 certain documents that we think exist that do not exist? Do
17 you have an explanation for that?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. McGARRY: Is that worded properly?
20 Q. Let's just start with that, and then we'll move
21 from there.
22 A. Well, when I became the Custodian of Records, I
23 was -- I caused a search to be done in various locations in
24 the United States where we thought logically those records
25 would be. That's Dallas, Texas, Los Angeles, California,
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1 and Clearwater, Florida. And I -- well, I selected
2 individuals within the Church, in the various departments
3 where those records would logically be located and where --
4 and then we made a determination, well, then if they're not
5 logically there, where could they possibly have gone. And
6 we selected individuals based on their positions within the
7 Church in their departments.
8 And with Miss Vaughn I wrote instructions to these
9 individuals and I --
10 MR. WEINBERG: For the record, that's
11 Laura Vaughn of Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans.
12 A. We wrote instructions to each individual and then
13 I delivered those instructions to those individuals. And I
14 told them in no uncertain terms that this was a -very serious
15 matter. There's a briefing -- in the written briefing
16 itself there's a description -- a brief description of the
17 McPherson matter. And they were given a certain time to get
18 back with me, to cause a search. And we have copies of it
19 here. You can -- you can have it.
20 Q. Okay. I'd like to know the names of the
21 individuals, the departments they were in and the cities
22 that they live in.
23 MR. WEINBERG: We can give you -- it's pretty
24 voluminous. We'll give you copies of all of the memos
25 that were circulated and the responses back from the
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1 people.
2 MR. McGARRY: All right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: We have that copy here?
4 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
5 Q. So you're going to provide us with the information
6 that you did as far as the requests that you made and the
7 various departments where the recordkeeping was?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, would you consider yourself knowledgeable in
10 the areas of recordkeeping in Clearwater, even though you've
11 only been here six months?
12 A. To this task, yes.
13 Q. Okay. So you can explain to us all the various
14 folders and all the various files and the buildings that
15 they're kept in, the purpose they keep them, the routing as
16 far as the paperwork is concerned?
17 A. Yes, I -- I think to the best of my ability, yes.
18 Q. Well, I would think that would be the crux of
19 our -- our investigation here, is that you followed the
20 paper trail all these documents went on. Did you do that?
21 A. Let's see. What I did was, I told the individuals
22 themselves to do their searches. In other words, I didn't
23 do the search myself. Or, well, you can take a look at what
24 they -- what I instructed them to do and how they did it and
25 their answers right here.
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1 Q. You did this by memorandum form?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Not face-to-face?
4 A. In most cases, no, because, you know, Dallas,
5 Texas, and Los Angeles, I couldn't.
6 Q. All right. So it is your belief -- let's go
7 through this. It's your belief that some of these
8 documents, these caretaker notes, somehow ended up in Dallas
9 or L.A.?
10 A. I couldn't say that. It's my belief that -- yes,
11 you could say that, it could have, it's a possibility.
12 Q. This is kind of frustrating, because it's hard for
13 me to follow the paths of paper.
14 Why would they possibly end up in L.A. and Dallas
15 when their reference is Lisa McPherson's care? And it's my
16 understanding, talking to caretakers, they were referenced
17 to Mr. Kartuzinski and, after him, various file folders.
18 Are you telling me now those various file folders,
19 including pieces of paper that somehow got separated from
20 those file folders, ended up in L.A. or Dallas, Texas?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you explain to
22 Mr. McGarry what you have -- what you have learned as
23 to the transfer of some of the documents to L.A.
24 A. Meaning -- well, when this incident occurred --
25 let me see if I can answer your question this way: When the
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1 incident occurred, her -- her, what do you call it, her PC
2 folders, her -- you know, the folders that -- her religious
3 folders, confessional form, I guess we call them, those were
4 transferred to Los Angeles to, actually, the property of the
5 Church. And that's one example of -- of a transfer of
6 information. I know that -- let's see. There were various
7 executives -- not executives. I just had indications
8 that -- that reports had gone out there.
9 So I figured -- again, I was looking for any way
10 or anywhere these things could possibly have gone. I knew
11 she was a parishioner of the Church in Dallas, I knew she
12 was communicating to people in Dallas, I knew she was
13 communicating to friends in the local area. You know what I
14 mean? And --
15 Q. Let's get down --
16 A. It's been a year or two after the incident. So I
17 wasn't quite sure where they could have gone. I knew or I'd
18 been told that, well, he wants to document the search and
19 make it as -- as -- as clear as possible we've done
20 everything we could. So that's what my interest in doing
21 all of that was.
22 Q. All right. Let's -- let's get down to basics,
23 okay, Mr. Steilo? Did you follow this paper trail? Did you
24 follow the paper trail person by person where these
25 documents went to? Did you do that?
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1 A. Did I personally, no.
2 Q. Did somebody?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who?
5 A. In Dallas, Texas, a person by the name --
6 Q. Let's start in Clearwater, from the writer's
7 hand --
8 A. In Clearwater?
9 Q. -- where the documents went. Did you follow that
10 paper trail?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me for a second. What
12 is the question, what document --
13 MR. McGARRY: I'm asking him who followed the
14 paper trail of the missing documents, the missing
15 documents of caretakers' notes. My question is --
16 MR. CROW: Why don't you see if he
17 understands the question before you object.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Let me just make a statement.
19 MR. CROW: We aren't here for you to make a
20 statement.
21 MR. WEINBERG: He is here as a records
22 custodian to tell you what he did to attempt to locate
23 documents.
24 MR. McGARRY: And I'm asking him questions in
25 reference to his search.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
25
1 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
2 MR. McGARRY: It's as clear as it can be.
3 MR. WEINBERG: That's what he's trying to
4 answer.
5 MR. McGARRY: Let him answer.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Let me tell you, he's been
7 trying --
8 MR. McGARRY: He hasn't, because you
9 interrupted.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No, you're not giving him an
11 opportunity.
12 MR. CROW: We're not stopping him.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm telling you, let him
14 explain what he did first.
15 MR. McGARRY: I am. And my question is, he
16 didn't do it, and he's going to tell me who did it.
17 BY MR. McGARRY:
18 Q. Who was the person that followed the paper, trail
19 from the writer's hand?
20 MR. WEINBERG: The individuals themselves?
21 Q. Who followed the paper trail from the persons that
22 wrote these papers, the reports, all these caretakers,
23 there's 20 of them, who followed the paper trail from when
24 it left their hand and can you tell me where that paper
25 routed?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
26
1 We have a lot of them, so you know what route they
2 went through, at least you know some of them.
3 A. Right.,
4 Q. Who followed it up?
5 A. I guess it would be the attorneys or the
6 individuals themselves.
7 You're talking -- let me -- let me -- let me say
8 something here. You're talking about the individuals, the
9 caretakers themselves?
10 Q. Right.
11 A. They were represented by Church counsel.
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. And those -- those individuals made statements or
14 told their counsel what was missing and they gave -- those
15 individuals gave what they had to their counsel, right?
16 Now, what I did was, I went and -- let's just
17 say -- in some of these individual cases they didn't know
18 where -- where the reports had gone after they gave them to
19 somebody or something. And what I was looking for was the
20 most logical places where they would be.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Okay?
23 Q. Let me stop you. Let me ask you some questions
24 here along the same lines. .
25 Did you ever talk to -- did you ever talk to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
27
1 Arthur Baxter personally?
2 A. Personally, yes.
3 Q. You did?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. About this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Not about this case?
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. Did you ever talk to Paul Kellerhaus?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. About this case?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. About these documents?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. There's a good start there.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. How about Marcus Quirine, did you talk to him?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You didn't talk to him?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How about Paul Greenwood, did you talk to him?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Janice Johnson?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. How-about any of these caretakers right
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
28
1 here that I have listed on this cover letter that you looked
2 at, I've got them broken down individually here, but they're
3 the same ones in the subpoena, Sam Ghiora, Teresa Cezare,
4 Alice Vangrondelle, Rita Boykin, Patrizia Strecencer,
5 Valerie Demange, Sylvia DelaVega, Heather Petzoid,
6 Barbro Wennberg, Emma Schamehorn, Joan Stevens, did you talk
7 to any of those individuals?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Which ones?
10 A. Let's see. Alice Vangrondelle. Emma Schamehorn.
11 Joan Stevens. Let me just think. And Barbro Wennberg.
12 Q. And the subject of those conversations was what?
13 A. The -- the dispatches that I had written to them
14 and the records search.
15 Q. Okay. This wasn't in a face-to-face oral
16 conversation, this was a dispatch by them, did you mean?
17 A. Oh, no, no. This was face-to-face. I did both.
18 I handed them the dispatch and I also spoke to them
19 face-to-face, just as we're doing here.
20 Q. Church policy, written correspondence is much
21 preferred over oral correspondence, is that kind of a
22 Hubbard philosophy?
23 A. Well, yes.
24 Q. And I assume that your conversations with these
25 people that you've mentioned on this list right here, they
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
29
1 pertain to the subject matter of their written records? Did
2 you cover that area?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And did you ask them in the course of that
5 conversation what they did with their written records that
6 they had taken in their -- in their watches with
7 Lisa McPherson during their two-week period there?
8 A. Let me see. Let me just think now.
9 Yes, I did.
10 Q. Well, I would think it would be important to
11 follow up where they said they put the records.
12 Either they gave it to security guard, correct?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Or they put it in the basket around the corner,
15 correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And did you find out that's where those records
18 went, one of those two places?
19 A. Yes, that's what --
20 Q. You did?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. So you know which one, which security guard, which
23 basket. Give me -- I'm trying to dig this out of you now.
24 A. You see, I wasn't there. And what they told me --
25 Q. I know, but --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
30
1 A. Let's just take Miss Wennberg. She said, Yeah,
2 look, I've already -- I've -- I've searched for these
3 things, I don't know where they've gone. And I said, Okay,
4 well, where do you think they've gone? I have no idea.
5 Q. Okay. Mr. Steilo, you understand the way this was
6 working here. These people, once they divested themselves,
7 which is immediately after they wrote the memorandum or
8 wrote the -- the log of what they observed on
9 Lisa McPherson's watch, once that left their hand, none of
10 these people ever saw their -- their paper again. They
11 didn't keep copies. I think one might have indicated they
12 kept a copy.
13 MR. WEINBERG: You're telling him this is
14 what they said in their testimony?
15 MR. McGARRY: Yes. I assume --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me for a second. If
17 you're asking what his understanding of the facts are,
18 that would come from us. All right? So --
19 MR. McGARRY: I assume what they're telling
20 me is what they're telling him, Sandy, if you just let
21 me finish.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
23 Q. Did they tell you that?
24 A. Yes, actually.
25 Q. They did?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
31
1 A. They didn't -- they didn't say anything, I
2 believe, to be inconsistent. But I don't know -- I don't
3 really know, you know, what they --
4 Q. My question is, did anybody say they kept the
5 records themselves?
6 A. No.
7 Q. They gave the records up to somebody?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That's what I'm asking you.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All of them did, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. They gave the records to somebody?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. A security guard?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. A runner?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You know who Lacy Spencer is?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. She's a runner for Alain Kartuzinski at the time,
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you interview her?
25 A. Okay, no.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
32
1 Q. And there's a basket around the corner too for
2 communication purposes at the Church? As a matter of fact,
3 there's baskets all over the Church, but there was one --
4 A. Exactly.
5 Q. Okay. But you determined there was one around the
6 corner in the laundry room from where Lisa was staying that
7 was used as a receptacle for some of these documents? Did
8 you find that out?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So now we know that either Lacy or the security
11 people transferred these memorandums to somebody. Did you
12 find out who that person was?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You don't know where they went?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You have no idea in the Church's routing of these
17 documents where they were routed to go, what the purpose of
18 them was, who was --
19 A. I know what they told me or what I've seen, but --
20 Q. That's what I'm asking you, Mr. Steilo. Can
21 you --
22 MR. WEINBERG: He's not a fact witness. I
23 mean, you're asking --
24 MR. McGARRY: Sandy, I'm trying to get --
25 MR. CROW: We can ask him facts.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
33
1 MR. McGARRY: Did he do it? He can say he
2 did do it or he doesn't know.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. What he's trying to do
4 is explain to you the process he went.through to locate
5 documents. What you're asking him is to re-create what
6 happened a year ago. He's not here for that purpose.
7 MR. CROW: We're asking him the questions we
8 want to ask about what he's supposed to do, and you
9 don't dictate what questions we're going to ask.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm going to dictate in
11 the sense if you're asking him to repeat what he's been
12 told by his lawyers, what people have said --
13 MR. McGARRY: I'm not asking what lawyers
14 have told him.
15 MR. WEINBERG: That's where his information
16 comes from.
17 MR. CROW: If you have set this up so you've
18 got a custodian you're trying to insulate, I'll tell
19 you we've got documents, sworn testimony they were
20 created, we subpoenaed them, we got indications from
21 you they were privileged and we weren't going to get
22 them, and now we're told that they're not available,
23 I'm going --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Doug, you can sit here and
25 make every accusation you want to make.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
34
1 MR. CROW: I'm not finished. I'm not
2 finished.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. Finish. I'll have a
4 statement to make.
5 MR. CROW: Fine. One at a time.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
7 MR. CROW: And if you're trying to insulate
8 the destruction or loss of records by -- by
9 communications, if you've given us a witness, you say
10 he can explain everything about the documents, and then
11 every time we ask a question you say no, that's
12 privileged because he learned from us, well, you
13 shouldn't have listed him as a custodian then.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Now can I -- can I
15 speak to that? Just so we don't have an argument about
16 this.
17 A custodian --
18 MR. CROW: Sounds like we already have an
19 argument.
20 MR. WEINBERG: A Custodian of Records is not
21 a person that comes in and repeats what -- what every
22 fact witness would say. A Custodian of Records is a
23 person that has custody of documents and has taken the
24 responsibility of trying to find them. Which at this
25 point in this deposition he'll be able to explain what
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
35
1 he did, what exists, what doesn't, that they've been
2 able to determine.
3 There are numerous people, most of which you
4 have already subpoenaed, that are people that can
5 answer the questions that you're talking about. You
6 bring in Mr. -- bring in Mr. Kellerhaus and ask him the
7 question you didn't ask him before. Ask him what did
8 he do with the documents when he had them. You bring
9 in people from -- from the Office of Special Affairs
10 that Mr. Kellerhaus has said that indicated that he --
11 he may have given documents to. You bring them in, you
12 ask those questions. But you don't ask this witness,
13 who wasn't there, those questions.
14 He was here -- he was here to -- to respond
15 to your subpoena and to produce what documents he could
16 locate, which is what he's doing. But you haven't
17 given him an opportunity to -- to even explain what the
18 process was, what they went through.
19 MR. McGARRY: That's what I did before. I
20 asked him specific questions, sandy.
21 MR. WEINBERG: But he hasn't been able to --
22 MR. CROW: First of all, you've been doing
23 the talking rather than him, okay?
24 MR. McGARRY: That's not my fault, Sandy,
25 because you haven't --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
36
1 MR. CROW: Secondly, you purported this
2 person had done a search --
3 MR. WEINBERG: He has.
4 MR. CROW: Our idea of a search is obviously
5 quite different from yours. We're not satisfied if
6 someone said, okay, send me the records and that's it.
7 We want to know, did you check with this person, how
8 many people, did you ask about the existence of
9 records, how many people, did you ask where they were,
10 and that's exactly what Mark's doing.
11 MR. WEINBERG: What you haven't allowed him
12 to do, he sent memos to how many people, to dozens of
13 people, including these that you're asking him about.
14 MR. McGARRY: I'm asking him about those.
15 MR. WEINBERG: He got responses back from
16 people. That's what's documented here. What you're
17 asking, who did he have -- I mean, if the requirement
18 is that he has to have a personal conversation --
19 MR. CROW: No, but we have the right to
20 distinguish between the two.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
22 MR. CROW: And we're going to ask the
23 questions that way, and we will ask the questions.
24 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. But he's not
25 being obstructive and we're not being obstructive.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
37
1 You're making it sound somehow that -- that we're
2 trying to mislead you. He's not trying to mislead,
3 he's trying to explain to you what he did.
4 MR. CROW: I'm making it sound like you're
5 doing all the talking and not letting him answer.
6 MR. WEINBERG: You're doing a lot of talking
7 too.
8 MR. McGARRY: May I continue?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. __
10 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Can I say, you
11 say he's not being obstructive, but everyone involved
12 in the Church knows people don't keep their reports and
13 he's sitting there saying they kept their reports.
14 MR. WEINBERG: If you want to testify now,
15 get under oath.
16 MR. FUGATE: Wait a minute. Let me see --
17 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: This is crazy.
18 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if we can get back on
19 track a second.
20 I don't know what questions you want to ask.
21 We've got an idea what they are. What we're trying to
22 do is to provide a witness to get you to witnesses you
23 may want to talk to.
24 MR. McGARRY: I thought this was the guy.
25 MR. FUGATE: What I'm telling you, we're
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
38
1 giving you the guy that has conducted. the, documented
2 search to get you to where all the things were. We
3 picked somebody because we don't know all the Church
4 terminology, we don't know how they keep their records.
5 We've gotten documentation of what he's done in the
6 search.
7 MR. McGARRY: So you know where we're
8 going --
9 MR. FUGATE: I can't re-create --,
10 MR. McGARRY: -- I'm going to ask very.
11 pointed questions about his investigation.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
13 MR. McGARRY: If it wasn't thorough, that may
14 come out. If it was thorough, hopefully that will come
15 out for you guys.
16 MR. WEINBERG: It was thorough.
17 MR. McGARRY: Why can't I ask these
18 questions?
19 MR. WEINBERG: You can.
20 MR. McGARRY: You don't like them.
21 MR. WEINBERG: No. If you'd give him an
22 opportunity to respond to your questions, to explain
23 what he did --
24 MR. McGARRY: Sandy, I have not cut him off
25 once, you have.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
39
1 MR. WEINBERG. Okay. Go ahead. It's what
2 you've asked him.
3 MR. McGARRY: You don't like it.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Because you're asking him for
5 information that I believe to be privileged.
6 MR. McGARRY: That's all he has. He
7 didn't -- he wasn't here when Lisa died. All he gets
8 is information from these other people. That's all I
9 can ask him, correct?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Look, why don't you try again
11 and -- and hopefully it will work out, okay?
12 BY MR. McGARRY:
13 Q. Mr. Steilo, where were we, Lacy Spencer?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you interview her?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Did you become aware during your
18 investigation of this paper trail that she was a runner?
19 A. Yes..
20 Q. Okay. Did you become aware that she allegedly
21 handled many of these documents from these women that were
22 looking after Lisa McPherson?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. So you gained that information?
25 A. Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
40
1 Q. Who did you gain that information from?
2 A. I think I got that from -- actually, from a
3 report. Let's see. It was from -- I'm just trying to think
4 now. It was -- where did I get that information? It's
5 unclear. Actually, it's unclear.
6 Q. Okay. Did you send her a memo and ask her about
7 her involvement in the paper trail of these documents?
8 A. No, not her. I could explain why.
9 Q. Do you know where she took those documents when
10 she picked them up from the caretakers and/or the basket
11 that was located outside of Lisa McPherson's room?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where was that?
14 A. They went to the -- the Senior CS Office.
15 Q. And who is that?
16 A. That at the particular time was Alain Kartuzinski.
17 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Kartuzinski about that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you send him a memorandum about what he did
20 with the documents after he read them?
21 A. Not him personally, no. It went to the people who
22 actually are in that office now and who would logically
23 still have those records if they existed.
24 Q. So that was maybe his assistant or somebody that
25 worked as a secretary?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
41
1 A. A replacement.
2 MR. CROW: Did you eliminate the possibility
3 he might be in personal possession of some of the
4 documents?
5 THE WITNESS: I assumed that had already been
6 done.
7 MR. CROW: So you did not?
8 THE WITNESS: I did not, no.
9 MR. CROW: Okay.
10 MR. FUGATE: Can I conference with him.
11 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
12 THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- just in relation
13 to that, I knew that his counsel, his representation,
14 had -- had seen these subpoenas, they know what you're
15 looking for. And I would assume that that had already
16 been taken care of.
17 MR. CROW: I don't believe he was subpoenaed.
18 Did we subpoena him?
19 MR. McGARRY: No.
20 MR. FUGATE: For the record, he knows that
21 they were given, each of the lawyers that represent the
22 people were given copies of subpoenas since they're
23 represented by counsel at our request, which was to
24 produce anything to him of a document nature and --
25 well, you can ask him whether there were any- documents
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
42
1 produced or not.
2 MR. CROW: I don't follow you. Maybe --
3 MR. FUGATE: The State Attorney subpoenas you
4 guys sent, each and every one of them have been
5 reproduced and given to the lawyers for the
6 individuals, so he's not contacting the individuals.
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. Are you done with your answer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Did you follow-up on where these
11 memorandums and these documents and these notes went from
12 Alain Kartuzinski's office?
13 A. Yes, sir. Yes.
14 Q. Where did they go?
15 A. Well, I'm not sure. Okay, what I did, when I
16 contacted the individuals that work in the office, I had
17 them look in every place that -- in that office --
18 Q. Let me cut you short because you were kind of
19 heading off.
20 When I say where did they go, we're referring to
21 these missing ones. Obviously we don't know where they went
22 or you didn't know where they went?
23 A. I did not, no.
24 Q. Where did the bulk of them go which I've been
25 provided?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
43
1 MR. WEINBERG: Where did they come from?
2 Q. Where did they go from Mr. Kartuzinski, these
3 documents right here that are on the Internet now? These,
4 have you seen these? These are the ones --
5 MR. WEINBERG: They're produced.
6 Q. -- that have been produced.
7 A. Yes, those are the ones we produced.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know where they were
9 located?
10 A. I don't -- I don't understand the question.
11 Q. The question is, Mr. Kartuzinski read all those
12 documents, that they were provided to him by either the
13 security guard or Lacy Spencer, correct?
14 A. I don't know --
15 MR. WEINBERG: He read them?
16 A. -- that he read that them, but he obviously --
17 well, I don't even know if he got them.
18 Q. You don't know if
19 A. They're addressed to him.
20 Q. My question is: He's testified, Kartuzinski, he
21 was getting these, they were going to him first; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yeah. Well, this one was. This one says
24 Senior CS.
25 Q. Right. A lot of them do.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
44
1 My question is simple enough. We have these.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Where did these go after him?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. You did not follow up on where -- where these
6 records -- how they ended up getting to us, I mean the
7 normal course? You would think that you'd check where the
8 normal course of these records went so you could find the
9 lost ones.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Are you asking him where they
11 were located, is that what you're asking?
12 Q. I want to know if somebody knows in that building
13 where Alain Kartuzinski's mail goes when he puts it in his
14 basket. And these were going, apparently, out of there to,
15 I assume, Lisa's folders. Now, I don't know which folder,
16 Ethics, PC.
17 A. That's true. I don't know what he did with them,
18 no. All I know is we have them.
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. And that's what I'm supposed to produce.
21 Q. Do we know how we got these? Do you know that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Who knows that? Who knows the answer to that?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do the lawyers know that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me for a second.
2 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
3 MR. WEINBERG: I'll represent for the record
4 that I believe that those documents were located, the
5 bulk of those reports were located in Los Angeles. If
6 I could just -- let me just read the -- were located in
7 the PC folder of --
8 MR. CROW: Lisa McPherson?
9 MR. WEINBERG: -- Lisa McPherson in
10 Los Angeles.
11 MR. CROW: By whom?
12 MR. WEINBERG: At the -- at the time of the
13 first subpoena that was served early in the --early in
14 the case. Before Mr. Steilo became the records
15 custodian, we caused a -- you know, we went to our
16 client and caused our client to make a search for
17 documents.
18 MR. CROW: Your client's an entity.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Our client is a -- is a
20 corporation or a series of corporations. We caused it
21 to make a search for documents and --
22 MR. McGARRY: This is in February?
23 MR. WEINBERG: This is whatever the month is.
24 MR. McGARRY: That subpoena went out in
25 February.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
46
1 MR. WEINBERG: February or March.
2 And the bulk of these documents were located,
3 I believe, in the PC folder of Lisa McPherson that --
4 that had been sent out to L.A. at that point -- period
5 before. And there are witnesses that you have
6 interviewed that -- that, if you ask the question, can
7 give you the specific answer as to approximately when
8 the PC folder was sent out.
9 MR. McGARRY: This may --
10 MR. WEINBERG: But what I'm trying to say, we
11 are not trying to argue with you. He is not here
12 because -- he's not a fact witness. If -- if what you
13 want is a witness to say what -- when did the PC folder
14 get sent to L.A., there are people, most of which you
15 have interviewed, that can -- that can testify as to
16 when approximately the PC folder was sent to L.A. It
17 was a long time ago.
18 MR. McGARRY: I'm beginning to think you are
19 the person that should be subpoenaed, Sandy.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not a witness. No, I'm
21 not a witness.
22 MR. CROW: Who did the search to find those
23 initial documents? We thought he did both of them.
24 Obviously, he didn't.
25 Who did the search to find the --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 MR. WEINBERG: What he has done --
2 MR. CROW: Who did the search to find the
3 first records? Obviously that's somebody we need to
4 subpoena.
5 MR. WEINBERG: We can provide a name. I
6 don't have the answer to the question as to who
7 actually --
8 MR. CROW: He doesn't know either?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Apparently not. But he has
10 done a second search, okay? He has done a second
11 search, a comprehensive search, that he can explain to
12 you, in three different locations, asking for not just
13 these documents, but every document that you have
14 requested up to now, a comprehensive search, which is
15 what you --
16 MR. CROW: Let me understand --
17 MR. McGARRY: This is getting out of control.
18 Let me go ahead. Let me finish up. I had a lot of
19 questions. If he doesn't know the answer, fine. Let's
20 just plug on, because it's getting late.
21 Can we go ahead?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
23 Let me just ask him a question just to
24 clarify something.
25 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Well, a lot of these -- and some of these things
2 were actually collected by myself earlier, okay, at the
3 behest of -- of Mr. Abelson. And then when Sandy and Lee
4 came on-board, Laura Vaughn, I was also working for them in
5 collecting documents in answer to the subpoenas.
6 Q. Back in February?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Well, that's what I'm asking.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. You did that then?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And was that these documents here that I just
13 showed you?
14 A. Yes. Some of them, yes.
15 Q. These are caretakers' notes.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We can categorize them. These are all caretakers'
18 notes.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Are those the ones you found?
21 A. I believe so, yes. I'm sorry, I'm a bit vague
22 because --
23. Q. Are there others?
24 A. What's that? I'm sorry.
25 Q. These caretakers' notes, these are the ones you
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1 found?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All of them?
4 A. Yes. Let's just say that.
5 Q. And you found those when --
6 MR. FUGATE: Wait a minute.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm being confused.
8 MR. FUGATE: I know you are.
9 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
10 A. Okay. In relation to those, to those specific
11 reports, they did come from Los Angeles.
12 Q. All right. Did you investigate who sent them to
13 Los Angeles?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know who did send them to L.A.?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know why they were sent to L.A.?
18 A. They were part of the person's PC folder.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And those folders belong to the Church of
21 Scientology International, so it's logical --
22 Q. Are you well-versed in the protocol for documents
23 in the Church? You must be, obviously, you're assigned to
24 this case.
25 A. Yes. Yes.
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1 Q. Would you say you're -- would you say you're an
2 expert in Church protocol for documents and routing? Would
3 you say there's anybody --
4 A. I would say yes.
5 Q. Would you say there's anybody out there in
6 Clearwater that knows more than you --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- about how the Church functions in routing
9 paper?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You're the guy?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Do you know why -- are all people's
14 documents, PC folders sent to L.A. from Clearwater?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. You don't know the answer to that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Who does?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. You don't know why they were sent to L.A.?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know who had them in L.A.?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who?
25 A. Mr. Ken Long.
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1 Q. Who is he?
2 A. He is a Staff member of the Church of Scientology
3 International.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Office of Special Affairs.
6 Q. Do you know why he had them?
7 A. Well, he's a deputy that works in CSI.
8 Q. What is CSI?
9 A. Church of Scientology International.
10 Q. Okay.
1l A. Why he had them, because he's -- well, I don't
12 know, actually, I never asked him. I know the folders go
13 there and I know he had them.
14 Q. What folders go there, everybody's folder?
15 A. McPherson's.
16 Q. Everybody's folders?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Just McPherson's?.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So he showed some interest in this folder.
21 Did he order this folder?
22 A. I don't know that he showed interest, but he got
23 it. I know he had it.
24 Q. Okay. Did you ask him whether or not there might
25 have been some documents that were placed, misplaced or put
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1 in another folder in L.A., did you talk to him, and maybe
2 that's why we don't have all of them?
3 A. Yes. What we did was we looked in the -- what was
4 called Senior Aide Sealed Files.
5 Q. Where were those?
6 A. In Church of Soientology International.
7 Q. In L.A.?
8 A. Yes, in Los Angeles.
9 We looked in what is called the Celebrity Center
10 International and the personnel and ethics files there. We
11 looked in -- well, we had somebody look in the PC folder for
12 any reports with regards to this matter.
13 Q. Well, there shouldn't be anything left in the PC
14 folder.
15 A. I'm sorry?
16 Q. I guess there would be for auditing and all that,
17 right?
18 A. Sure. She's been a Scientologist for a long time.
19 Q. Right.
20 Okay. Are there still folders located outside of
21 Clearwater in reference to Lisa McPherson?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. And what folders are those?
24 A. Those would be the PC folders.
25 Q. The PC?
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1 A. Those, yeah. Those are the only ones.
2 Q. And that would have to do with her auditing over
3 the years?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, is there a difference between PC
6 folder, a pre-Clear folder and an ethics folder?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you explain the difference to me, please?
9 A. Yes. An ethics folder is -- it's a -- it's a
10 folder for reports. Let's say an individual does something
11 good or does something bad. And there's a distinction
12 between the two, but there's no particular attention on
13 either one of them, except that if an individual does
14 something good, he gets a good report, if he does something
15 bad, there's a bad report. These are collected together and
16 put together in ethics folder.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. For instance, an ethics officer works with an
19 individual on something we call conditions of existence,
20 ethics conditions. There would be reports of those in there
21 too.
22 Q. Okay. Did you find out where -- and I might have
23 already covered this, but do you know what folder -- why are
24 these documents here from these caretakers? They're not --
25 they're not doing any -- all they're doing is writing down
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1 observations, they're not having any dialogue, they're not
2 doing any auditing. Why do these documents go to a PC
3 folder?
4 A. I don't know. .
5 Q. You don't know that answer?
6 A. I don't know, no.
7 Q. But they ended up in a PC folder, right?
8 A. Yes. Best of my knowledge, they did.
9 Q. And that started in Clearwater, correct?
10 A. That's correct, yeah.
11 Q. Now, where is that PC folder kept in Clearwater?
12 A. It's not: I just described, it's in --
13 Q. Back up.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Before it got to shipped to L.A., what building
16 did this folder start out in in Clearwater? Where does it
17 live?
18 A. Would be the Fort Harrison.
19 Q. All right. Specifically?
20 A. The Senior CS Office, it looks from this.
21 Q. Okay. I'm not being specific enough. So each --
22 MR. WEINBERG: That's actually an office.
23 The Senior CS has an actual office.
24 A. That is an office.
25 Q. This isn't Kartuzinski's private office, this is
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1 in his domain?
2 MR. FUGATE: Section.
3 A. Exactly, yes.
4 Q. All right. And everybody's PC folders are within
5 that domain?
6 A. Not all of them, no.
7 Q. Where might the other ones be?
8 A. Well, we had different areas called Hubbard
9 Guidance Centers. I mean, we have hundreds of people there
10 during any given week and the Hubbard Guidance Center, you
11 know, contains and controls them. There's a group of
12 individuals who run that of -- I think it is approximately
13 40 or 50 individuals right now.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. They occupy about a floor of the building.
16 Q. So you did not ask -- did you ask somebody with
17 Kartuzinski's office where these documents went once he read
18 them? Does somebody know the answer to that?
19 A. I didn't ask them, no.
20 Q. Was there a memorandum sent to anybody asking them
21 that?
22 A. No. What I asked them was to collect together any
23 documents they have in their office in the present. And,
24 you know, to locate any and every document they could. find
25 in relation to McPherson.
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1 Q. The ethics folders, are they contained within the
2 same place, Kartuzinski's office?
3 A. No. No.
4 Q. Where they located?
5 A. They're in the Coachman Building.
6 Q. They're in the Coachman Building?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. And somebody has a personal folder
9 too?
10 A. Personnel folder.
11 Q. Personnel folder?
12 A. That's if the individual's a Staff member.
13 Q. She's not a Staff member?
14 A. No.
15 Q. She had an old one though from when she was Staff
16 in Texas, correct?
17 A. Correct. Correct.
18 Q. They also have a central file folder?
19 A. In Texas?
20 Q. Well, I don't know where it is. Is there such a
21 thing as a central file folder?
22 A. Oh, yes. Yes.
23 Q. Where is that?
24 A. Well, the one in FSO is here, actually, in this
25 room, but it is in a place called CF, and that's located in
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1 the Coachman Building, or would have been -- it was located
2 there.
3 Q. All right. I don't know if you read these
4 subpoenas or not, but there are some other specific
5 documents that we have been told existed at one time that
6 now don't exist, and they are documents that were written --
7 summaries written by Janice Johnson, Paul Greenwood and
8 Laura Arrunnada. Are you aware of that?
9 A. I think you're referring -- yes, yes.
10 Q. Those three people are the three people that took
11 her in the van to the hospital?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Okay. Have you been made aware or are you privy
14 to information that they were asked to write a summary of --
15 of the events that occurred on that day by a security guard?
16 MR. WEINBERG: You're asking if he has
17 firsthand information?
18 MR. McGARRY: I don't know how he's got it,
19 I'm asking if he has that information. I just want to
20 know who has that information --
21 MR. WEINBERG: If it came from us --
22 THE WITNESS: I did get it from them.
23 MR. McGARRY: All I want to know, if it's in
24 his brain. I just want to know if he's got it.
25 MR. WEINBERG: We've explained to him the
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1 issue, there are a number of witnesses --
2 MR. McGARRY: My question is a preview if he
3 acted on that.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Did you act on knowledge that
5 there was supposedly handwritten reports and/or signed
6 reports on about September 15th following her death
7 from certain specific --
8 Q. No, specifically the three people that I
9 mentioned.
10 A. Those three people, I heard that a summary was
11 made by Mr. Marcus Quirine.
12 Q. Correct.
13 A. And I obtained a copy of that.
14 Q. Okay. I've seen that copy. That copy has been
15 provided to us, as matter of fact.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. You're aware of that?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And --
20 A. And that has the summaries of the individuals
21 you're mentioning.
22 Q. Yes, it does.
23 MR. CROW: It has a summary of the
24 individuals?
25 MR. McGARRY: His summary of the summary.
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1 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
2 MR. CROW: It doesn't have their notes?
3 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of.
4 MR. CROW: I thought it was unclear the way
5 you said it on the record.
6 THE WITNESS: okay.
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. Now, did you follow-up on where the transmission
9 got lost in those documents? We're missing those documents.
10 A. You're missing those documents, yes.
11 Q. Did you follow up on that?
12 A. Well, yes, that was
13 Q. Tell me what you did.
14 A. That was part of the search here.
15 Q. Okay. Tell me what you did.
16 A. Probably in relation to Alice Vangrondelle. These
17 reports by the individuals, I couldn't figure out where else
18 those reports could have gone except for the ethics files.
19 Q. Did you find out who the security guard was that
20 requested that they write these, did you find that out?
21 A. I didn't know a security guard requested they
22 write them. But let me -- let me say, I did talk to the
23 Security Chief at that time, Mr. Paul Kellerhaus.
24 Q. Right. And he indicated he didn't ask them,
25 correct?
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1 A. I don't -- no, I just asked him --
2 Q. Did you ask him?
3 A. -- where the hell I could look for these
4 documents. And he said he didn't know where they went.
5 Q. Wait a minute. We've got to cover this kind of
6 carefully.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. He said to you he didn't know where they went,
9 meaning he asked for them to write them?.
10 A. No, no, I don't know. See, all I was trying to do
11 is find any and all documents in relation to McPherson. I
12 didn't talk to him about --
13 Q. Those three?
14 A. -- those three, no. I'm looking for any and all
15 documentation.
16 Q. But you didn't ask him about those three? .
17 A. No.
18 Q. You're aware that I subpoenaed those three, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Because you've seen the subpoena?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Okay. But you didn't ask him about those three?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ask him about the -- did you ask -- one of
25 them is in Mexico. Did you ask the two people that are
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1 locally whether or not they wrote them and what was in them?
2 A. The two people locally?
3 Q. Which would be Janice Johnson and Paul Greenwood,
4 they're the authors of the documents I'm seeking.
5 A. Oh, yes. No. No, sir.
6 Q. You did not speak to them?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you never found the security guard that
9 allegedly asked them to-write it down?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And did you talk to Marcus Quirine in reference to
12 him accepting those documents and doing a summary from those
13 documents?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. You didn't speak to him either?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, I'm at a loss at what else you did as to
18 locate those particular documents. What areas are we --
19 what am I missing here that you did?
20 A. Well, what -- whatever Mr. Quirine did with these,
21 they must exist in some form in some file in the Church.
22 And what I did was, I looked in those logical places where
23 those things could be.
24 Q. Which was where?
25 A. Specifically, the ethics files, okay?
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1 Specifically, the Church ethics files.
2 In other words, these individuals were writing
3 reports about an individual. They could be what is known as
4 a Knowledge Report. They could have been -- gone to the
5 Senior CS Office, to Mr. Kartuzinski. That's why I wanted
6 to look in those areas and that's why I had the staff look
7 in that area for those -- those particles. Then there was
8 the PC folder, okay, so they could have been in the PC
9 folder. That's why we had a search done through the PC
10 folder.
11 Q. Pursuant to your investigation and location of
12 those particular documents, did you establish why those
13 documents were requested to be written? I mean, we don't
14 know who asked --
15 A. No, sir, I didn't.
16 Q. You don't know why?
17 A. No, I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know whether it was -- it was a fear of
19 infectious disease or because it was for pending litigation
20 that might come in the future or whether it was --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I don't want you to speculate,
22 Glen.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't want to speculate
24 either.
25 Q. You don't know why they were asked to be
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1 generated?
2 A. I don't, no.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the --
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is clear,
6 he's deposed the witness that caused them to be
7 generated who's already told him what happened.
8 MR. CROW: That is not correct.
9 MR. McGARRY: That's wrong, Sandy.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Marcus Quirine.
11 MR. McGARRY: Quirine did not generate those
12 documents.
13 MR. WEINBERG: No, he caused them to be
14 generated.
15 MR. McGARRY: No, sir, he didn't.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe I'm --
17 MR. McGARRY: You're mistaken. There is a
18 security guard, of which I don't know who, that caused
19 them to be created. I don't know who did it.
20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. That's news to me.
21 All right.
22 MR. McGARRY: Well, do you know who caused
23 those to be generated?
24 MR. WEINBERG: I have no idea. I was under
25 the impression Mr. Quirine had told you that he
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1 interviewed a bunch of people that night.
2 MR. McGARRY: Yes, he did. I'm not talking
3 about that.
4 MR. WEINBERG: That night some of those
5 people say that they wrote out notes.
6 MR. McGARRY: A lot of them did. And he made
7 a summary of them. I'm talking about the security
8 guard that asked these three people down in the
9 basement, the security guard in the parking gage, to
10 write these three documents out.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have the name of the
12 security guard?
13 MR. McGARRY: No, I don't know who did it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
15 MR. McGARRY: Paul Kellerhaus didn't --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
17 MR. McGARRY: That's what I'm asking him.
18 I'm asking him because I thought that's what he was
19 doing.
20 MR. WEINBERG: He's looking for documents,
21 he's not here to testify about what happened two years
22 ago.
23 MR. McGARRY: Sandy, how do you look for
24 documents that happened two years ago?
25 MR. WEINBERG: How does that happen? The
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1 person circulates memos to as many people as we can
2 think of this is what we're looking for, any document
3 that would exist, and -- and it includes these
4 documents.
5 MR. McGARRY: That's your way. I'm going to
6 go ahead and ask my way, all right? It's my dime.
7 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
8 BY MR. McGARRY:
9 Q. So you had ---you had a conversation with
10 Paul Kellerhaus, correct?
11 A. Very brief, yes.
12 Q. And the subject of the conversation was what?
13 A. His -- his computer, actually. I was interested
14 in his computer, to see if there were any reports on his
15 computer.
16 Q. And he didn't have any in the computer?
17 A. Well, he wasn't sure. He said that as far as he
18 knew, they weren't there anymore.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. So what we did was, we hired an expert to come in
21 and do a search of the computers, including Mr. Kellerhaus'.
22 Q. I have the results of that.
23 Did you talk to him about the reports, though,
24 that were asked to be created by a security guard down in
25 the basement?
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1 A. No. No, sir.
2 Q. You didn't ask that question?
3 A. No, sir, not at all.
4 Q. Did you ask him any questions about any meetings
5 that he had with Brian Anderson in reference to reading
6 these reports and being present when they were created?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you didn't ask him that?
9 A. No
10 Q. Did you ask him whether or not he was familiar
11 with the path of paper that was being created by the
12 security system that was in place outside of Lisa's door?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you didn't follow up on that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you aware there are some circumstances and
19 events that occurred, that actual security guards delivered
20 some of this paperwork, some of these memorandums to various
21 places in the Church? Did you find that out?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And who did you find that out from?
24 A. From counsel.
25 Q. Okay. But you didn't find it out from the
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1 security people?
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. Okay. In your -- in your investigation, did you
4 ever find out whether or not there was a
5 Committee of Evidence that was done in reference to this
6 case?
7 A. I found that there was none.
8 Q. There was not?
9 A. No, that's --
10 Q. As to any members that were involved in this case
11 and their involvement with Lisa McPherson?
12 A. Yeah, that's what I found.
13 Q. So you're telling me today that there has not been
14 a Committee of Evidence that has been done --
15 A. As far as I can tell, no.
16 Q. You didn't let me finish.
17 A. Oh, okay.
18 Q. -- on Mr. Kartuzinski?
19 MR. WEINBERG: With regard to Lisa McPherson?
20 MR. McGARRY: With regard to Lisa McPherson,
21 the way this was handled.
22 A. I would say as far as I know, and I can explain
23 this in a second, no, there hasn't been. I looked through
24 his ethics file personally, personally, and I saw nothing in
25 there.
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1 Q. Is that where that document would be maintained?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. So somebody does a summary of the
4 Committee of Evidence and that document goes in his personal
5 file?
6 A. His ethics file.
7 Q. Any other file that that document would go to?
8 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. Not a
9 Committee of Evidence.
10 Q. So that's the only file it goes to and it's the
11 person who's actually being investigated --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- for violation of a Church policy?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It goes in their file?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It doesn't go in a central file where the
18 Committee would keep a record of all Committee of Evidence
19 cases they've had, or Justice Committee?
20 A. It always goes to his ethics file. When the
21 Committee of Evidence is finished, their record goes to his
22 ethics file.
23 Q. And there is none?
24 A. I didn't see any, no, sir.
25 Q. Do you know who the Justice Chief at that period
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1 of time was?
2 A. At Flag? You mean here in Clearwater?
3 Q. Here in Flag, yes.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Period of time we're talking
5 about is what?
6 MR. McGARRY: Lisa McPherson time.
7 A. No, no.
8 MR. McGARRY: Or three months after,
9 specifically.
10 A. Yeah. No, sir.
11 Q. All right. In the event, if there was ever an
12 Introspective Rundown done -- and my information tells me
13 that there was not one -- would there be a record of that?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. I'm asking you because you're the -- you're the
16 guy that knows.
17 A. No, sir, I -- I don't know, because an
18 introspective -- I've never participated in one, I've never
19 seen one. If it would be in the person's PC folder, that's
20 the only place where I could think it would be.
21 Q. All right. How about a Purification Rundown,
22 something like that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do they keep records of that?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And where would they put those records?
2 A. In the -- I guess in the person's PC folder.
3 Q. Okay. How about a Security Check, Sec Check for
4 short, are you familiar with that term?
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. You are?
7 A. Oh, yes.
8 Q. And if that was done, would that be in somebody's
9 folder too?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Which folder are we talking
11 about?
12 MR. McGARRY: I don't know.
13 MR. WEINBERG: PC folder?
14 MR. McGARRY: Any folder.
15 A. Any folder? It would be --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing, I just want
17 you to be clear as to the question.
18 Q. If a Sec Check would be done, would there be a
19 document created? And if it was created, what folder would
20 it go to?
21 A. There would be a document created and, as far as I
22 know, it would go in the PC folder.
23 Q. Are you aware of one being done in this case,
24 Lisa McPherson's case, ever?
25 A. Let me think here. No. No.
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1 Q. You specifically looked for it?
2 A. I didn't specifically look for it -- for that, but
3 when I did go through the folders, I.would have noticed
4 that.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. So I would say -- I would say no.
7 Q. Let's talk about destruction of records. Are any
8 records ever destroyed, due to time, gamy, old, moldy, death
9 of an individual?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Explain to me those circumstances.
12 A. They're varied. Records are maintained by Church
13 staff members, let's say on a personal level, since we're
14 dealing with individuals here, until they're told to get rid
15 of them or until they feel they have no more use for them.
16 For instance, in my office, if I kept records that
17 I wanted to keep, not normal records, but let's just say
18 special reports, commendations, I put them in a folder. And
19 it would be to my own discretion as to whether I kept them
20 or got rid of them.
21 Q. Let's take, for instance, the big folders, we're
22 talking ethics, PC --
23 A. Okay. We're talking --
24 Q. The big stuff.
25 A. They would go to the warehouse. They wouldn't be
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1 destroyed.
2 Q. Ever?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You indicated earlier in my questions that you
5 never talked to Lacy Spencer, did you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The runner.
8 A. That's right, yeah.
9 Q. She's the runner. She's a young girl.
10 A. No.
11 Q. She's worked specifically for Mr. Kartuzinski.
12 A. No.
13 Q. The reason why I asked that, because she told me,
14 when I interviewed her, she accidentally destroyed some
15 documents in reference to this case.
16 A. Okay. .
17 Q. And you're not aware of that?
18 A. No, sir. No.
19 Q. Have you ever been involved in a watch before?
20 A. Yes, but not on a person.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. You know, sea watch.
23 Q. All right. Maritime?
24 A. Maritime watch.
25 Q. Right.
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1 Well, this was a watch, correct?
2 A. I believe so, yes. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And the purpose of, this watch was to
4 get this person stabilized so she could go through a
5 procedure, correct?
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7 Q. All right. And that procedure would be an
8 Introspective Rundown, correct?
9 MR. WEINBERG: If you know.
10 A. I don't know, actually.
11 Q. You didn't find that out?
12 A. No. I don't know if a watch is involved.in an
13 Introspective Rundown, no.
14 Q. All right. What -- let's go through your
15 training. What level are you on that side of the fence? I
16 know you're Staff, right? Have you gone through teachings,
17 Hubbard teachings?
18 A. Oh, yes.
19 Q. What courses have you completed?
20 A. There are lots.
21 Q. What level are you?
22 A. I'm a Grade IV.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Grade IV Release. That is just below what is
25 commonly known as a Clear.
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1 Q. Right.
2 A. For reference, if you're familiar with these
3 terms.
4 Q. I'm somewhat familiar.
5 So you --
6 A. That's mostly what we call processing, or I
7 received auditing. That's not training.
8 Q. I know there are two sides.
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And you're on the -- I'm talking about the
11 personal side that you're receiving, I'm not talking about
12 the level of training you've had to give out.
13 A. Okay. Good.
14 Q. All right. So kind of following up there, so
15 you're a Level IV, so you kind of -- you kind of know what
16 terms are, like Introspective Rundown, Sec Check, you know
17 what a Purification Rundown is and all that, right?
18 A. Yes. More the Purification Rundown and Sec Check
19 than Introspective Rundown.
20 Q. Why don't you explain to us -- what's your
21 definition of a Sec Check? How does that work?
22 A. Well, it's a series of questions you ask the
23 individual about to locate his charge. For instance, you
24 may have -- I don't know, the individual may have stolen
25 some money and doesn't want to talk about it, okay? The
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1 idea is to get him to talk about it. And then if you get
2 him to talk about it enough, then he'll realize, gee, it's
3 okay to talk about it, maybe I can take responsibility for
4 this, pay the money back.
5 Q. All right. Are certain things in the Church hand
6 routed personally by the authors of the documents rather
7 than through the messenger system or through the basket
8 system because they're more important than others, in your
9 knowledge as an expert in the area?
10 A. Yes, there's such thing as rush hand route
11 document.
12 Q. Explain to me the difference between that and the
13 normal route.
14 A. Well --
15 Q. Because these things say "rush." A lot of these
16 things say "rush" on them.
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. And that means --
19 A. That would have gone through a basket system.
20 Even rush hand route would have been handled by a
21 Communications staff member. It's rare an individual
22 himself will take a dispatch, you know, however it's marked
23 and walk up to somebody and say, here, this is for you. You
24 usually have a runner of sorts to do that. In fact, that's
25 very common.
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1 Q. So the runner hand delivering the dispatch is the
2 rush route?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. All right. The regular route is a basket, but
5 that's picked up by a runner too?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But just not immediately?
8 A. Exactly. For instance -- well, they're actually
9 all picked up by the runner, it's how they're handled. If
10 you have regular communication, it goes in another basket.
11 If you have a rush, you have a hand route basket -- or
12 communication, they go in the person's desk in front of
13 them.
14 Q. All right. So that brings me to the question that
15 if it says "rush" on it, it ends up on their disk?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "CSN rush" goes to, presumably, Mr. Kartuzinski,
18 correct?
19 A. Presumably, yes, sir.
20 Q. On his desk, hand delivered?
21 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
22 Q. Are you aware that some of these documents
23 suggested that mode of transportation as opposed to-the
24 regular basket mode?
25 A. I'd have to look at them. I think so. I mean, if
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1 you want me to confirm that. But if that's what they said
2 on them, that's what happened to them, I believe.
3 Q. All right. What if it said -- what if it said
4 hand routed because it's case beta? Can you explain to me
5 what that means?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Because it's what?
7 MR. McGARRY: Case beta.
8 A. Case data.
9 Q. Is it data or beta?
10 A. It must have been data.
11 Q. Case data, what does "case data" mean?
12 A. It pertains to the person's case as a spiritual
13 being. In other words, it's not -- it pertains to their
14 case.
15 Q. All right. Are these documents that I just showed
16 you, that you had in front of you right there, is that case
17 data? Do you know the answer to that?
18 A. I don't know the answer to that. I don't.
19 Q. What is case data again?
20 A. That would pertain to an auditing session, you
21 know, where you had an auditor, do you follow me, an
22 individual who sits there and tells you to do certain things
23 and you respond in a certain way to them, in rough.
24 Q. If -- if I was a runner and I was at a pre-Clear
25 state of training and I handled somebody's case data, isn't
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1 there something prohibiting me, stopping me from doing that
2 because I might read it or look at it?
3 A. It would be sealed in some way, usually. It would
4 be covered, you know, in a package. We have runners
5 commonly, and I know when they go between buildings
6 sometimes with case materials, they're put in a locked case.
7 Q. Well, did you find out if any of Lisa McPherson's
8 memorandums that these caretakers did, were they in that
9 fashion? Were they sealed in that fashion, if that's case
10 data?
11 MR. WEINBERG: If you know.
12 Q. If you know.
13 A. I don't know, no.
14 Q. Did you ask anybody?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. You did not ask?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Okay. So it's your understanding that after these
19 documents were read by Mr. Kartuzinski, who happens to be
20 Lisa's supervisor, right, Case Supervisor --
21 A. That's what I understand.
22 Q. -- at the time?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. To the best of your knowledge?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. So that they would go to her PC folder?
2 A. I don't know. I actually don't know. I -- those
3 reports that we got --
4 Q. Who do I ask to find that out? That is kind of a
5 critical question for me in my document search here.
6 A. Those --
7 Q. Who knows that?
8 A. Those documents came from her PC folder.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. So my inference is that because these came from
12 her PC folder, he put them there?
13 A. It would seem so, but I don't know if he
14 personally --
15 Q. You didn't investigate that?
16 A. No. No. I don't know if he personally put them
17 in there.
18 Q. You're aware of Mr. Quirine's meeting on
19 December 5th when he gathered all the caretakers together,
20 right?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Did you personally investigate that aspect of
23 these documents?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. In what respect?
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1 A. In respect to conducting the records searches I've
2 tried to explain.
3 Q. Okay. And that was the L.A., Dallas, Clearwater?
4 A. Yes, exactly. In other words, those records, if
5 there are any left, they must exist somewhere. And I have
6 searched everywhere I think they possibly can be, quite
7 thoroughly.
8 Q. Did you ask Brian Anderson whether he read any of
9 these documents?
10 A. Whether he read them, no, sir.
11 Q. Did you ever talk to Brian Anderson about this
12 case?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And what did you talk to him about the case
15 about?
16 A. In response to these reports or my dispatch to him
17 as to what to do, I made sure that he understood this is
18 what I was looking for. If he had any question. No, he
19 didn't. He went away and he searched his area for any
20 reports regarding McPherson. And the only thing he give me
21 was -- was a file of newspaper clippings and said that's all
22 he had, other than what had been given before.
23 Q. Who's Dr. Steve Harlan?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Steve?
25 MR. McGARRY: Harlan, H-a-r-l-a-n.
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1 A. Steve Harlan? I don't know.
2 Q. You don't know who he is?
3 A. No, sir.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Is there a document with his
5 name on it?
6 MR. McGARRY: No. Quirine said he was in
7 charge of all the PC folders.
8 Q. Do you know that?
9 A. I'll take a look here. Let's, take a look at
10 these.
11 Q. You've never spoken to Steve Harlan?
12 A. No, sir.
13 He's in charge of PC folders?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Well, the person who is in charge of -- of the
16 search for PC folders is Becky Ellenberg.
17 Q. How long has she been doing that, do you know?
18 A. No, sir.
19 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
20 Q. Did you every speak to Alfonso Barcenas?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In reference to Lisa McPherson?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You didn't talk to him about the subject of the
25 reports, did you?
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1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. What does the term "folder error summary" mean?
3 A. It is done by a specialist in the Church who looks
4 through a folder and looks for errors, and then he makes a
5 summary of those errors. It's for use by the CS.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Talking about a PC folder?
7 THE WITNESS: PC folder.
8 Q. If somebody were to say that these folders were
9 being FES'd, what does that mean to you?
10 A. That meant that -- I've forgotten the term. The
11 person who's going to do the FES is doing it.
12 Q. Was that done in this case?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Did you ask anybody that question?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you aware that Vangrondelle's summaries ended
17 up in some other location than where they were supposed to
18 be? Did you become aware of that?
19 A. Oh, yes, sir. Yes.
20 Q. Why don't you explain how that went.
21 A. Well, we conducted our search. And in the process
22 of doing the search, I believe it was counsel told me to,
23 you know -- we'd really like to find Vangrondelle's
24 folder -- her report. It was a report she did. So then I
25 said, ah-ha, an Ethics Report, where could it be? Ethics
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1 file.
2 Q. Is it an Ethics Report? I mean, this is the same
3 notes that everybody else does.
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. That's what we're calling that, an Ethics Report?
6 A. Well, let me actually see the report, how she
7 headed it. She wrote a report. And it wasn't where you'd
8 normally find it. I think it's in the box over there.
9 THE WITNESS: Can I see that?
10 MR. FUGATE: You need the box.
11 (Pause.)
12 THE WITNESS: It's not here, no.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have a copy of it,
14 Mark?
15 MR. McGARRY: Yes.
16 A. Okay. It's a Knowledge Report.
17 Q. Is that what we're calling these things?
18 A. Let me see those. No, I don't think so. This
19 is -- this is a different kind of report. This is a
20 report -- in other words, the individual has found something
21 that he thinks is wrong and writes a report on it.
22 Q. Where did you find that report?
23 A. In a -- in an ethics file. Actually, in
24 Leslie Woodcraft's ethics file.
25 Q. How did that end up there, just by accident?
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1 A. Well, no. It should have been there. But it was
2 in the wrong place in the folder entirely.
3 Q. Why would it go to Leslie Woodcraft's ethics file?
4 A. Well, that was a good question. Usually -- it was
5 just a hunch that I'd find it there. Usually when you write
6 a Knowledge Report, it is on a specific individual, okay? I
7 think that says -- has FSL or something on the top of it.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. She was that person at the time, so it's logical
10 that it would go there.
11 MR. WEINBERG: You mean Miss Woodcraft was at
12 that time?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, she was that post. In
14 other words, she was writing on some non-optimum
15 condition with relation to this individual
16 MR. CROW: Are you saying you knew at the
17 time you were looking for it this was entitled
18 Knowledge Report and had that designation?
19 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't know.
20 MR. CROW: Since you didn't know it had that
21 designation on top of it, how -- maybe you can explain
22 again how it would be in her ethics folder.
23 THE WITNESS: It was a hunch. I knew a
24 search had been done, I knew it was a report. From the
25 description that Leslie -- Alice had given me, I
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1 thought, well, it's probably in the ethics file.
2 MR. CROW: To get a description of the
3 contents of the report is helpful in deciding where it
4 might be?
5 THE WITNESS: In this case, yes.
6 MR. CROW: And possibly in other cases?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Oh, yes.
8 MR. CROW: And why did you do that in this
9 case, where you talked to her and got the contents of
10 the report, and not do it in every case?
11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
12 MR. CROW: Well, in looking for her report
13 you went and talked to her, debriefed her about details
14 about the report so you can decide what other places it
15 might be. And from looking at this, you haven't done
16 that with the other people whose records we've
17 subpoenaed. So why did you do that in her instance and
18 not do it in the other instances?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, I did do it in some other
20 instances.
21 MR. CROW: Some of other instances and not
22 all of them?
23 THE WITNESS: Not all of them.
24 MR. CROW: Why did you not do it in all of
25 them?
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1 THE WITNESS: Because I was given to
2 understand that there wasn't any more from those
3 individuals. They already -- they already testified
4 there wasn't any more or they didn't know where they
5 would have gone.
6 MR. CROW: Well, this person didn't know
7 where it had gone to either, but you got details that
8 helped you guess where it was.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. CROW: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MR. CROW: Why didn't do you that with the
13 other people that we subpoenaed records for?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, that's what I had relied
15 on with these individuals here.
16 MR. CROW: Okay. I understand that you had,
17 I'm asking why is there a difference in the way you
18 handled it?
19 THE WITNESS: Well --
20 MR. CROW: Is there a reason?
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I think I understand
22 now.
23 Yeah, I was -- I was asked to make absolutely
24 sure, you know, by counsel that it couldn't be found,
25 you see.
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1 MR. CROW: Okay. Should I imply you were not
2 asked to make absolutely sure as to these other
3 records --
4 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
5 MR. CROW: -- since you didn't interview the
6 people?
7 THE WITNESS: No. No. When I actually --
8 when I conducted the searches, I had talked with some
9 of the individuals: where I logically thought they would
10 be and had, you know, asked them detailed questions
11 about what they did, you know, in their searches.
12 MR. CROW: You still haven't explained why
13 you handled it differently.
14 MR. WEINBERG: That's if he handled it
15 differently.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, it -- yeah.
17 MR. CROW: I think he already told me he did.
18 THE WITNESS: Not exactly, no. That's why I
19 say, I've talked to some other of the individuals here.
20 MR. CROW: I'm asking about the ones you did
21 not talk to. You acknowledged there were people you
22 did not talk to.
23 THE WITNESS: Exactly. I did not --
24 MR. CROW: In fact, most of the people on the
25 list you didn't talk to.
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1 THE WITNESS: Right, sir.
2 MR. CROW: So most of those people, you
3 didn't talk to them to get whatever details, like
4 details you got from this one lady, that might enable
5 you to determine what file it might have gone to?
6 THE WITNESS: Right. 'Because I didn't think
7 that was necessary.
8 MR. CROW: And I'm asking you why?
9 THE WITNESS: Because it was obvious to me
10 that from, you know, the -- the -- the places I'd
11 located or looked, it was clear that there wasn't going
12 to be any more.
13 Let me explain. I worked in the ethics file
14 area before. I know that reports written by
15 individuals on other individuals have a tendency to get
16 misplaced. So when I went in there, I looked through
17 everything that I could think that it would be. The
18 individual that was doing the search for me, I wasn't
19 convinced that she could actually conduct a thorough
20 search. That's the difference.
21 MR. CROW: I don't think you've answered the
22 question, but I don't think if I ask it again I'll get
23 any different answer, so
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 BY MR. McGARRY:
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1 Q. Mr. Steilo, I'm referring to Sandy's letter here
2 that we got on July 15th. And it says, The Church has
3 produced all of the reports which were generated prior to
4 Lisa's death that the Church has been able to locate in its
5 document review and production efforts.
6 He's referring to your efforts, right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. My next question is, he's got this worded prior to
9 Lisa McPherson's death.
10 A. I'm sorry, I was paying attention to something
11 else.
12 Q. My next question in reference to that same
13 sentence is, he puts in here that these documents were
14 generated prior to Lisa McPherson's death.
15 Are there documents available for -- in reference
16 to her existence and her problems there at the Church that
17 were created after her death?
18 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
19 MR. WEINBERG: That we haven't turned over,
20 is that what you're asking?
21 MR. McGARRY: Well, either way.
22 MR. WEINBERG: What's the question?
23 MR. McGARRY: The question is simple and
24 plain, Sandy.
25 MR. WEINBERG: We have turned over documents
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1 after her death. You got Marcus Quirine's report, for
2 example. You just need to clarify the question.
3 MR. McGARRY: Well, that's my question.
4 Those are the documents. If there's more documents
5 than that -- why do I have to be specific? If there
6 are documents that were created after her death, then
7 he can say no, you've got Quirine's. And is there
8 something else? I don't know. That's what I'm asking.
9 MR. WEINBERG: That question is a little
10 clearer than the one you asked before.
11 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I'm not aware of any.
12 MR. WEINBERG: All right. So the record is
13 clear, there are -- there is one memo that was created
14 on December 5th, 1995, that exists, this is separate
15 from the Marcus Quirine memo, that exists that we have
16 not produced that was prepared for counsel in L.A. And
17 there are --
18 MR. McGARRY: Who prepared that memo?
19 MR. WEINBERG: A woman named Annie Mora,
20 who's in the office of Special Affairs. That's just a
21 summary document.
22 And there is -- there are two -- and there
23 are handwritten summaries done by Paul Greenwood at the
24 time of his police interviews. In other words, he was
25 interviewed and y'all have the transcripts of those
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1 interviews, and he did some summaries for counsel
2 summarizing what he had been asked by the police and
3 what he had said. And I believe --
4 MR. CROW: Counsel for the Church or his
5 personal counsel?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Counsel Bob Johnson. This is
7 way before -- this is back in 1996, in the early --
8 MR. CROW: Those were not provided.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, they_ were not provided.
10 And I don't believe they've been asked for either, but
11 they were not provided. This is not what you've asked
12 for, which is a -- which is a --
13 MR. CROW: We initially subpoenaed, I think,
14 all of Greenwood's documents.
15 MR. FUGATE: No, I think they're -- I
16 think --
17 MR. WEINBERG: You just have to look.
18 MR. FUGATE: Look at it. I think it's -- the
19 period of time, it doesn't include interviews of the
20 police.
21 MR. WEINBERG: By the police, which is --
22 which is in 1996.
23 MR. FUGATE: Without waiving any privilege,
24 obviously these are notes they made to give back to
25 counsel of what was asked of him, which is the
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1 interviews that you have. And I think there's a --
2 MR. CROW: So you did not -- what I'm trying
3 to get at, you didn't refuse to provide them because
4 they're privileged, you refused because you don't think
5 they're subpoenaed?
6 MR. WEINBERG: A, I don't think they're
7 subpoenaed. But, B, if they were subpoenaed, they are
8 privileged.
9 MR. CROW: Obviously, we may not agree with
10 that.
11 MR. FUGATE: That's why we're identifying
12 them.
13 MR. WEINBERG: That's why we're identifying
14 them.
15 Okay. Those are the three documents that --
16 MR. CROW: I guess I would have expected them
17 to be identified at the time of the subpoena, that's
18 why.
19 MR. WEINBERG: No one asked for a privilege
20 log ever.
21 MR. CROW: Well, we don't have to in
22 State Court, Sandy.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just telling you, we
24 have -- we told -- we have told you, we've told Mark
25 from Day 1 that as to events that occurred after the
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1 death, other than the Marcus Quirine thing, which we
2 made an exception as to, we were asserting a work
3 product privilege. However --
4 MR. CROW: You initially asserted work
5 product --
6 MR. WEINBERG: Can I just finish? Can I
7 finish, please?
8 MR. CROW: Make it quick.
9 MR. WEINBERG: If you're not interested,
10 you're not interested.
11 MR. McGARRY: I'm interested. Finish. But I
12 want to follow up on that.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to make it clear in
14 the letter we are not withholding -- we are not
15 withholding any caretaker reports. I mean, based on
16 the document review that has been coordinated by
17 Mr. Steilo, there are no reports prior to her death
18 that we are -- that, based on what my client's told me,
19 that we are withholding. We are not withholding any --
20 any handwritten summary or report by Laura Arrunnada or
21 Paul Greenwood or Janice Johnson following the -- you
22 know, on December the 5th following the death.
23 We are not withholding, based on the document
24 review that has been done by --
25 MR. FUGATE: December the 6th, for clarity
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1 sake.
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- document review done by
3 Mr. Steilo, any of the -- of the handwritten summaries
4 that have been described to you, as I understand it, by
5 the various witnesses who talked to Marcus Quirine. As
6 far as has been represented to us from our document
7 review, none of those documents can be located. They
8 haven't been located. And they are not being withheld
9 under any privilege or anything like that, okay?
10 We -- we have identified three documents
11 that -- that we would assert a privilege to, and I'm
12 willing to talk to you about the Annie Mora document.
13 Frankly, it's just -- it was a different set of
14 circumstances than Marcus Quirine, because it was with
15 regard, as we understand it, direct communication
16 with -- for purpose of briefing counsel in L.A. with
17 regard to what the events were.
18 MR. McGARRY: Well, in all fairness, Sandy, I
19 have to say that a lot of this got stirred up because
20 of the fact that originally you and Laura were
21 indicating to me that the very documents that I was
22 trying to obtain from Paul, from Laura and from Janice,
23 Dr. Johnson, were being claimed as a privilege.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think you
25 misunderstood.
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1 MR. McGARRY: No. No, I'm not mistaken in
2 that. It was told to me on numerous occasions that
3 those documents, and I believe you memorialized that in
4 one of your letters, that would be privileged
5 information. Now, if I took that wrongly, I don't see
6 how, because you told me that on numerous occasions.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I guess -- I guess we've got
8 to look at it.
9 I believe that if there were -- were reports
10 like that that had been done, there would have been a
11 privilege that attached to it. But I'm telling you
12 that -- that we have not located any reports like that.
13 And, therefore, we're not withholding them based on
14 privilege.
15 If they existed, I believe that we would
16 assert a work product privilege,
17 work product/attorney-client privilege as I understand
18 the circumstances that such reports would have been
19 generated under. But there's nothing to litigate about
20 because we're not withholding them.
21 MR. McGARRY: You're mincing words with me a
22 little bit, Sandy.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Trying not to.
24 MR. McGARRY: My statement is, when I
25 referred to you in conversations about those three
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1 reports that were created by those three individuals in
2 the van ride to the hospital, you indicated to me, as
3 did Laura, and I can remember exactly where this took
4 place, in our investigation room when the three of
5 us -- actually, Lee was there also, and all of you
6 indicated that, well, that was in anticipation of a
7 lawsuit materials and that we would be claiming a
8 privilege on that.
9 MR. WEINBERG: That's correct.
10 MR. McGARRY: And that is why I'm not getting
11 them.
12 MR. WEINBERG: No. No.
13 MR. McGARRY: Based on that information --
14 based on that information, Sandy, if you'll let me
15 finish -
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'm sorry.
17 MR. McGARRY: -- based on that information,
18 that is what caused the dander in here to get a little
19 stirred up, because now we have information that
20 there's documents out there, they existed, and you're
21 claiming a privilege. So our litigation at that time
22 was focused towards, well, let's do some research and
23 see if they can claim work product privilege based on
24 the circumstances you told me you were retaining those
25 documents under.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Now, Lee was at the meeting
2 too. I'm sorry if that was how you came away from the
3 meeting, because that was not what I intended to
4 articulate to you.
5 MR. McGARRY: It was more than you, it was
6 Laura too.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Can I finish now?
8 MR. McGARRY: The argument was between the -
9 two of you and both of you told me that.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Now can I finish?, Okay?
11 When we had the conversation with you, I --
12 you know, as we sit here today I can't remember exactly
13 when the conversation was. But all I can tell you is,
14 is that what I believe that I indicated was that under
15 the circumstances as we understood what those witnesses
16 were telling you or other witnesses were telling you,
17 that if -- if those reports existed, we would claim a
18 privilege to them.
19 But what I'm telling you now is, is that
20 since I have been in this case, I have never seen a
21 report like that. And now that Mr. Steilo has
22 completed his company-wide, corporation-wide search,
23 he -- he is here to tell you that he is satisfied from
24 a comprehensive search there are no such documents out
25 there and we are not withholding them. Okay?
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1 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me add to that,
2 because one of the reasons we're here is to try to not
3 have knock-down dragouts over things that we don't need
4 to. If we do, we do.
5 The -- in the early conversations what was
6 being said was, we have divided what you're looking for
7 into two categories. We don't disagree anything that
8 was written pre-death you have a right to. We're
9 giving you what we've got. We're continuing to turn
10 everything upside down to find whatever else we can.
11 We did find some more and we provided them to you.
12 We also told you that in regard to those
13 requests, we were looking for those, but if we found
14 them, we were going to claim a privilege. And you said
15 we may not agree with that. And we did say, we
16 understand that, you may be able to litigate it, and
17 we're prepared to litigate our side of the equation as
18 well.
19 And at one of the meetings that we had we
20 indicated that we had gone -- we were going to L.A. to
21 ask L.A. to conduct a search for those very documents.
22 And we went to L.A., came back, and I had a meeting and
23 I said, we've looked for those documents and we can't
24 find those documents. And that's the status as I
25 recall the record. And I kept notes of that. And we
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1 did claim that if we found them, we would claim a
2 privilege, but we recognized that you guys were going
3 to litigate it.
4 MR. McGARRY: You guys gave us a cover letter
5 that said there are no non-privileged documents in this
6 area. And I'll find that letter. Don't have it with
7 me. But we'll agree to disagree on the content of that
8 conversation.
9 MR. FUGATE: I'm just trying to tell you the
10 best of my recollection and that's what it is.
11 MR. McGARRY: All right. We disagree on
12 that.
13 Back to Mr. Steilo?
14 MR. WEINBERG: It's Steilo, by the way.
15 MR. McGARRY: Steilo, excuse me.
16 BY MR. McGARRY:
17 Q. Did you look in her accommodations account folder?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you find anything in there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What?
22 A. Well, records of her donations for accommodations.
23 Q. Okay. Is there -- was there also records in there
24 about how she was paying for her stay at the Church during
25 that period that she was being -- she was under the watch?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There was?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I mean -- yeah.
6 Q. There was?
7 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
8 Q. Okay. And those -- those documents reflect what
9 she was being charged for .the period of. time she was staying
10. at the hotel?
11 A. I believe so, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know how that got paid for?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you -- since you're familiar with the
15 recordkeeping at the Flag Building there, is there a log --
16 explain to me how security keeps their logs.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Now or then or any time?
18 Q. If it's changed, you can let me know that also.
19 But certainly then. And if it's changed, now.
20 A. They -- they have a .computer. And whenever they
21 have an incident of significant nature, and I don't know
22 what determines that, but I have seen incidents reported in
23 a computer log.
24 Q. Okay. Is that forever kept?
25 A. I don't know.
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1 Q. You don't know whether it's purged after a certain
2 period of time?
3 A. As far as I know, it's not purged, no. I do know
4 that the -- what's his name? Someone in security
5 communicated to Mr. Abbott, when he did his search, that the
6 computer had crashed at one time in nineteen ninety
7 Q. Mr. Abbott?
8 MR. WEINBERG: That's the computer expert.
9 Q. I've got his document.
10 A. It was early in 1996, I actually can't be sure of
11 the date.
12 Q. How do these security guys know when they're on
13 their shift? Do they have a log or 'something or some kind
14 of schedule they keep? And who's in charge of that?
15 A. There is a Watch Chief. I'm not aware of the
16 schedule or who keeps the log.
17 Q. Who was in charge in '95 of security, Baxter or
18 Kellerhaus.
19 A. This incident was Baxter.
20 Q. Baxter?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is an Internal Investigation different than a
23 Committee of Evidence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Explain the difference to me, please.
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1 A. Committee of Evidence is a formally convened group
2 of individuals who look into, with authority, matters of
3 concern. And that's laid out in what is called a -- a
4 Bill of Particulars.
5 All right.
6 A. An investigation could be done by anybody, anybody
7 interested. For instance, someone might notice that the
8 quality of food is poor and start an investigation. Could
9 be anyone, really.
10 Q. Is there a record kept of that?
11 A. Sometimes.
12 Q. Was there an Internal Investigation done in
13 reference to the death of Lisa McPherson?
14 MR. WEINBERG: If you know.
15 A. I don't know. I don't know.
16 Q. Did you find out? Did you check?
17 A. Well, in the records I didn't see any.
18 Q. Who would I ask?
19 A. The individuals who could have conducted that
20 investigation.
21 Q. Which would be who?
22 A. At that particular time -- do I know? Again, it
23 could have been any one of these individuals.
24 Q. Brian Anderson?
25 A. He could have, yes.
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1 Q. Who's over Brian Anderson?
2 MR. WEINBERG: At the time, you're talking
3 about?
4 MR. McGARRY: '95. .
5 A. I don't know. Don't know.
6 Q. Don't know? I .
7 A. No.
8 Q. Who is now?
9 A. Ben Shaw.
10 Q. Ben Shaw?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What's his title?
13 A. He is the Commanding officer of the
14 Office of Special Affairs.
15 Q. And he's a local guy?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Which is what Brian Anderson
18 was back in 1995.
19 Q. And Brian Anderson's title now is what?
20 A. He's the Public Relations Officer, Vice-President
21 of the Church.
22 Q. So is that a promotion for him?
23 A. No. I wouldn't think it's a promotion, but I
24 don't know in relation to, you know, his old position, his
25 present now, I don't know if it's -- you know, I've known
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1 Brian for years. He's worked in public relations before.
2 Q. What is Alain Kartuzinski's position right now?
3 A. Right now, I don't know.
4 Q. You don't know what he does?
5 A. No, sir. No.
6 Q. It's not the same as he. was, is it?
7 A. No, he's not. No.
8 Q. How do people get changed from one job to another?
9 A. That -- that varies, actually, They can-be
10 demoted, they can be promoted, obviously. There's also
11 another condition of when -- let's say -- I mean, the Church
12 is constantly growing, we have a problem with this. And we
13 try to recruit new qualified personnel to fit in a position.
14 Now, qualified is a variable term. We usually
15 send the individuals off for training. .So someone could
16 come in and take a position and then the person who is there
17 before could be sent for training. And then the person who
18 replaced him did so well, then that's his position, and the
19 guy who-went to training could go to another position, if
20 you follow me.
21 Q. All right. You don't -- is there any record of
22 his being transferred from, one position to another that --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Talking about Alain?
24 A. Talking about Alain Kartuzinski, no. In the
25 ethics file I did see something, he was holding the post of
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1 Senior CS temporarily.
2 Q. All right. Who stamped all these things with FSO
3 numbers?
4 A. Counsel, I believe.
5 MR. McGARRY: These are your numbers?
6 MR. WEINBERG: That's -- that's our Bates
7 stamp numbers.
8 MR. McGARRY: This is?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. And.-we have the.,
10 originals. If you ever want to look at the originals,
11 we have them in our office with the Bates stamp on
12 them. And that's just a photocopy of the original
13 that --
14 MR. McGARRY: You actually have. the originals
15 of these?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
17 MR. CROW: How would we make an appointment
18 to do that? Can you all bring them here sometime?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Actually --
20 MR. FUGATE: There are more records than what
21 you have subpoenaed that are there. And if you want to
22 come over, a lot of them I don't think are going to
23 be --
24 MR. CROW: More records?
25 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, we have turned
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1 over more records than you've subpoenaed in civil
2 cases, because you haven't subpoenaed every -- there
3 has been more stuff that's been subpoenaed. But we --
4 the stuff we thought was -- you'd be interested in, we
5 actually told Mark to give us some additional subpoenas
6 and we turned over stuff.
7 MR. CROW: We're talking about the caretaker
8 documents.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I understand
10 Where are they? Are they in here, Glen?
11 THE WITNESS: Some of them are.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, just make an appointment
13 and you can come over.
14 But I mean, for example -- actually, where is
15 that? Here is an example. We have it-divided like
16 this. So there's a -- that particular -- in response
17 to that particular subpoena we turned over those
18 documents, which have the original, you see.
19 MR. CROW: Want to try to go through these
20 today or do it another time?
21 MR. McGARRY: Another time.
22 MR. CROW: We will --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Any time you want to make an
24 appointment, Wayne or anyone can come down or we can
25 bring them over here and you can look at them.
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1 MR. CROW: Okay. Well arrange something.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
3 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record and
4 convenience, what we did, in anticipating that you
5 might want to go through that, each folder in here is a
6 break out- with a subpoena in front of it of what --
7 what you had asked for in the originals, if you want to
8 look at the originals.
9 BY MR. McGARRY:
10 Q. Have you ever spoken to Bennetta Slaughter
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And why was that?
13 A. Well, when we initially came here, my purpose in
14 working for Elliott Abelson was to gather some information,
15 and Benetta was her employer, and I went to her and spoke
16 with her.
17 Q. You spoke with her about Lisa?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what was the context of that conversation?
20 A. Well, it was, you know, how did she seem before
21 she went to the Fort Harrison, what do you know about this.
22 Q. Okay. Your conversation with her didn't really
23 focus on recordkeeping?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It was just some background?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you're --
3 A. I was trying to create a chronology, if you will,
4 of -- of events so that we could clearly see -- and when I
5 say "we," it's really Elliott could clearly see what -- what
6 happened.
7 Q. So you're more than just a document retriever,
8 you're actually involved in this investigation with the
9 Church --
10 A. Well --
11 Q. -- internally?,
12 MR. WEINBERG: He's been -- he is our client
13 contact. We work with Glen Steilo directly and he
14 works basically under. our supervision with regards to
15 the defense of the Church in this investigation. So he
16 is -- the reason I've been sensitive to a lot of
17 questions you've asked is that since he wasn't here
18 back in December of 1995, 99 percent of the knowledge
19 that he's learned about the facts have come from us.
20 So we work with him-every day.
21 MR. McGARRY: You see the frustration we
22 have. We're not getting the answers that we're looking
23 for because he didn't have --
24 MR. WEINBERG: No, if, you want documents, he
25 does have the answers. He looked, he coordinated --
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1 MR. McGARRY: He could not answer a single
2 question in reference to the path that those documents
3 took, Sandy.
4 MR. WEINBERG: That's not what a records
5 custodian does.
6 MR. McGARRY: How do you find them unless you
7 follow up on them?
8 MR. WEINBERG: You don't need to yell at me.
9 You go to Paul Kellerhaus. You say, Paul,
10 who did you give the documents to? Then you go to the
11 next person.
12 MR. McGARRY: I asked and he answered
13 negatively.
14 MR. WEINBERG: But you haven't gone to the
15 next person. If you go back to his interview,
16 you'll -- you'll see who he said, and then you'll go to
17 the next person. You haven't asked Brian Anderson --
18 MR. CROW: He's telling you things he didn't
19 tell us..
20 MR. WEINBERG: No. We've had this
21 conversation before.
22 MR. CROW: Let's go ahead and talk to the
23 witness.
24 BY MR. McGARRY:
25 Q. I've got some questions I want to -- we've been
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1 asking questions and occasionally bickering back and forth
2 over what you did. I would like to give you the
3 opportunity, if you want to, to start in your own organized
4 way of describing exactly what you did in reference to
5 honoring subpoenas and searching for the documents that we
6 subpoenaed. Give me an overview of that. And if you have
7 documents to supply to us, then go ahead.
8 Let me ask that open-ended question and you take
9 the ball and run with it.
10 A. Okay, sir. Yes, you can have copies of all this,
11 probably.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Those are your copies and
13 we'll mark them as exhibits, but why don't you explain
14 them.
15 A. Okay. Well, these represent -- I think I said
16 this before, I identified individuals who would most
17 logically have the files, and then I went off further than
18 that, any eventuality, any possibility, where could the
19 files have gone, you know. So I -- I identified 17
20 individuals here at the -- in Clearwater who would have --
21 their offices. When I say individuals, I mean their
22 offices.
23 And then --
24 MR. CROW: What were those offices?. Are they
25 documented in the records?
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1 A. April Bucahnon.
2 Q. When did you have contact with her?
3 A. This was in April and May.
4 Q. '97?
5 A. '97.
6 Q. This is before we subpoenaed the records. So this
7 wasn't in response to our subpoena then, was it?
8 A. No, sir. But this got all the records, I mean.
9 Q. What I'm saying, we subpoenaed some records that
10 were already responded to.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then we issued another subpoena two weeks ago. So
13 when you're doing this, you're not doing this-in response to
14 our subpoena?
15 In other words, we subpoenaed -- we subpoenaed
16 specific individual caretaker records.
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And we subpoenaed any reports of, I think, three
19 other individuals. I know those are specific things
20 included in the subpoenas.
21 When you say you talked with her, are you
22 mentioning those individuals' names?
23 A. No, sir. No.
24 Q. okay.
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You didn't even have our subpoena when you started
2 the search? .
3 A. 'That's right. These --
4 MR. WEINBERG: But you had already -- there
5 were already subpoenas in existence that had called for
6 all of those documents.
7 MR. CROW: I agree with that. They were
8 responded to, and I think --
9 THE WITNESS: It was my understanding they
10 was all encompassing.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. CROW:
13 Q. Tell me, what were you told? Since you didn't
14 have a subpoena to look -- to work from, what were you told?
15 A. We -- we had already -- we had looked for --.we
16 produced documentation to you before. This -- this thing
17 was a second time around.
18 Q. Okay. My question is, what were you told?.
19 A. Any document -- well, any and all financial
20 records, including donations by Lisa McPherson to the Church
21 of Scientology.
22 Any and all records regarding Lisa McPherson's
23 stay at the Fort Harrison from November 18th to
24 December 5th, 1995,1 including but not limited to scheduling
25 records of those who serviced her in any way and any
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1 documents generated by anyone related to her stay. Any and
2 all documents regarding Lisa McPherson or her stay at the
3 Fort Harrison created after her death. This includes any
4 debriefings, investigative memos or dispatches, ethics
5 actions or other reports on actions taken as a result of her
6 death.
7 Copies of any personnel files on Lisa McPherson.
8 Copies of any ethics files on. Lisa McPherson or reports on
9 or about Lisa McPherson-which may be contained in mother
10 individual ethics files. All documents related to. any
11 Internal Justice Action taken regarding the death of
12 Lisa McPherson. All documentation maintained in the central
13 file folders of Lisa McPherson.
14 These categories are not intended to limit the
15 search for documents in any way, they're merely intended to
16 highlight the request in the present subpoenas and the
17 Request to Produce records. We're asking for all records
18 related to Lisa McPherson from any time period, not just
19 those records related to the period she was at the
20 Fort Harrison prior to her death.
21 In addition, if you're aware of others who have
22 had any files or records on Lisa McPherson, you must.inform
23 me so that these can be collected as well.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is.clear,
25 we're doing two.things here. We are making sure that
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1 we have responded accurately to your-subpoenas that
2 preexisted that, and we are in the middle of a civil
3 case where we are getting a much more comprehensive
4 Request for Production of Documents that is asking for
5 more documents than you subpoenaed.
6 And so as a result of that, we instructed
7 Mr. Steilo to head up a -- a search for records so that
8 we could comply with -- make sure that we complied with
9 your subpoenas and complied with our -- this
10 Request for Production that we had received in the
11 civil case.
12 MR. CROW: Make sure you already had complied
13 with our subpoenas?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And as a result he --
15 he circulated this memo, which he will have a copy, a
16 number of copies.
17 MR. CROW: I get the idea. I can go ahead
18 and ask him some questions, if you don't mind?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
20 BY MR. CROW:
21 Q. So to make sure that I understand it, and I think
22 I do, you're doing a -- a broad based, comprehensive search
23 for records as opposed to a -- a specific search looking
24 for -- asking about a record drafted by this person or that
25 person or that person?
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1 A. Yes, that's right. .
2 Q. And the people in the course of doing these
3 searches are looking for very broad categories of stuff --
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. -- as opposed to specifically identified
6 documents?
7 Have you ever gone back -- I understand the point
8 that's been made, that this broad search should have come up
9 with the specific documents as well. But have you ever gone
10 back and specifically tracked the individual documents that
11 are in the subpoenas that brought you here today? In other
12 words, have you gone back and asked for caretaker records of
13 the people listed?
14 A. You mean after your subpoenas, these two
15 subpoenas, recent subpoenas?
16 Q. Other than this search that you're talking about,
17 the general search that you're identifying. with the
18 documents in front of you, have you --
19 A. I'm a bit confused as to time. In other words,
20 when specifically?
21 Q. Any time.
22 A. Well, yes, I have traced individual documents.
23 Q. Okay. Was that a result of the subpoenas?
24 A. Let's see. No -- well, Alice Vangrondelle's.
25 Q. I asked you about that. That's why I was asking
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1 you, in that one you went out, got some information that was
2 crucial to get. And you, after talking and finding the
3 substance of it, you went and -- I think it might, be here.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. You didn't do that with a number of other
6 individuals.
7 Have you ever done that before or since, what you
8 did with Miss Vangrondelle? Did you do that with any of the
9 other people that are involved in the subpoenaed records
10 today?
11 A. No, sir, not since that time.
12 Q. Okay. Or before that time?
13 A. Before that time, yes, I have. .
14 Q. You talked with all those individuals?
15 A. Not with all of them, no, sir. Just some of them.
16 I identified them.
17 Q. The one you identified earlier in the statement?
18 A. Yes. And the ones I'm about to identify.
19 I mean, there are some individuals here,
20 realizing, of course, the individuals I'm talking about here
21 were not the ones that generated the reports as you're
22 talking about, but again, if reports were generated and they
23 can't be located now, or that's the apparency, then where
24 would they be. They would logically be in certain areas,
25 okay? And that's what I was doing.
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1 For instance, we started with the Senior INR's
2 Office. Should I go on?
3 Q. Sure.
4 A. Then we went to the Senior CS Office. That was
5 Mr. Kartuzinski's office. And I spoke personally to the
6 receptionist, we call her Communicator, actually like a
7 secretary. .
8 Q. What is her name?
9 A. I don't know, actually. Let's see.
10 Q. Do you know what time period she was there?
11 A. Sue Willis.
12 Q. Do you know what time period she had worked there?
13 A. She was not there, no, sir, at that time.
14 MR. WEINBERG: No. He's asking what time
15 period has she been there as --
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. You don't know if she was there during
18 Lisa McPherson?
19 A. I know she wasn't there during that time.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. WEINBERG: That was Lacy Spencer. That
22 was the one that Mark had asked about.
23 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
24 A. So I-had her read this in front of me. I asked
25 her if there was any questions. I told her how important
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1 this was and it was very important that she literally turn
2 her office upside down. And that if there was any archives
3 or any other folders that were maintained by the other
4 incumbents of the office, for instance, Kartuzinski, she was
5 to get those and give,them to me.
6 Then I went to --
7 Q. And did she give you records?
8 A. No, sir, she didn't find it.
9 Q. She didn't find any records at, all?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Not only ones we subpoenaed, but any of the ones
12 on your list?
13 A. Nothing. Her office was clean, in other words.
14 Then I went to the Security Chief, who is now
15 Paul Kellerhaus, and I went over each one of these items,
16 these seven general categories.
17 Q. Again, Mr. Kellerhaus was not Security Chief at
18 the time of the Lisa --
19 A. No, sir, he wasn't. Again, it was in relation to
20 his particular office, his computer.
21 Q. I understand. I understand.
22 A. And the people who -- well, anyway, that area.
23 So we went over specifically the computer. That's
24 when I became aware that he had a -- a computer problem. We
25 went over each one of these. And he writes to me he went
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1 through all of the areas on this and his computers, he
2 checked cabinets, desks, as well as all of his computer and
3 found no documents. But I think at this time -- I don't
4 know if this time he already knew we were going to do the
5 computer search.
6 Q. He couldn't find any documents in any of the
7 categories?
8 A. Yes, sir. No, he did not.
9 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
10 A. He did not.
11 Then I went to Mr. Anderson, who's now the
12 Public Relations Officer, and I told him to search his area.
13 Again, I handed this to him personally. And he went
14 through -- he went over every one of: these categories with
15 me and he asked me questions about it. And I told him this
16 was not limited to his time of public relations, but also as
17 the commanding officer at OSA at the time.
18 So he conducted a search. He didn't find,
19 anything. He --
20 Q. Do you know if he personally did the search or he
21 had other subordinates do it?
22 A. No, sir, he personally did the search.
23 Q. Who told you that?
24 A. I actually watched him for part of it. I'm in the
25 same office and I watched him.go through his folders --
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1 files, file cabinets against the wall. He went into another
2 place where we keep archives of files and he thought that
3 something might be there.
4 And he didn't find anything, except he handed me a
5 folder which was of newspaper clippings, mostly kept since
6 December of 1996.
7 Let's see. Who else did I go to? Okay, I went to
8 the Bureau of Routing and Personnel in the Flag. This
9 person maintains personnel files. Now, Lisa McPherson
10 wasn't a Staff member of the Church of Scientology FSO, and
11 this person's function is to maintain files and reports on
12 Staff members. However, I figured that being reports as
13 they are, if they were misplaced, they could have gone into
14 various personnel files. You follow me?
15 So I told her I had -- again, I brought this to
16 her personally.
17 MR. WEINBERG: "This" being this memo?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 A. By the way, her name is Joan Stevens.
20 And I told her that I'm looking for files in
21 relation -- we went over each one of these -- these things.
22 She told me that she didn't have any personally, she had
23 nothing in her personal area. And I told her to look in the
24 personnel files of -- of individuals who were concerned in
25 this. And I -- I named a number of them off.
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1 Barbro Wennberg, Leslie Woodcraft.
2 Q. Barbro Wennberg?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was her involvement?
5 MR. McGARRY: Wennbro.
6 THE WITNESS: Wennbro, yes.
7 MR. WEINBERG: No, its s Barbro .Wennberg.
8 MR. McGARRY: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: She's been, questioned by your
10 office.
11 MR. McGARRY: Yeah, that's true.
12 A. I told her to look in those personnel files.
13 Q. Do you have the list of all the people you
14 specifically mentioned?
15 A. No, sir. It was verbal. .
16 Q. Do you remember which ones you asked her about?
17 A. Yes, sir. It was -- let's see. It was all the
18 ACO personnel. Heather, Leslie, Barbro, herself, Spencer,
19 Lacy Spencer, Alain, Johnson. Somebody else. Let me see a
20 list.
21 Q. See what list?
22 MR. WEINBERG: The list of women?
23 A. This list, yes, sir.
24 Let's see. Rita Boykin. Sylvia DelaVega. Emma.
25 I think that's it.
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1 Q. Okay. So you didn't ask to look in the personnel
2 files of everybody who had been --
3 A. Yeah, Greenwood was one of them. Laura's file
4 wasn't there, but we discussed it.
5 Q. Did you have a list you were working from or do
6 you just remember all the names?
7 A. It was -- it was remembering the names, sir.
8 Q. Okay. Are you sure you remembered every name of
9 every caretaker? .
10 A. No, I didn't. I didn't -- I actually didn't ask
11 on Cezare. I did ask on Vangrondelle.
12 Q. Well, what about -- we've got Sam Ghiora?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Teresa Cezare?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. Vangrondelle you did.
17 Rita Boykin? .
18 A. Yes, I did
19. Patrizia, no.
20 Q. Valerie Demange?
21 A. No, I don't think so.
22 Q. Sylvia?
23 A. Sylvia DelaVega, yes. Heather, yes. Barbro, yes.
24 Emma, yes. Joan, yes. She could look in her own file.
25 Q. She could look at her own file?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: She was the one doing the
2 search. .
3 Q. Okay. Do you know -- did you ask her to look in
4 the file?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. She said that --
8 Q. Now, did she.look through every piece of paper in
9 every file or did she look at file folders or do you know?
10 A. I don't know, actually.
11 Q. What did she tell you?
12 A. I told her to look through every one of the
13 folders, and again we went over these items, and find
14 anything in those folders in relationship. She told me she
15 had looked into them and she didn't find anything.
16 Q. The ones you asked her. about?
17 A. Yes, sir. I've searched my area and no documents
18 relating to Lisa McPherson at all.
19 Then I went to the Addresso Officer in the FSO.
20 The Addresso officer is an individual who keeps records,
21 it's a computer record on the parishioners of the Church.
22 This is more information as to their home,. their telephone
23 number, address, whether they speak English, a foreign
24 language, et cetera, et cetera. And he produced some
25 records here with regards to names. It's mostly unknown
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1 though. She was listed as deceased. It did have her old
2 address.
3 MR. FUGATE: Lisa McPherson you mean?
4 THE WITNESS: Lisa McPherson.
5 A. But that was it. It is a print -- this is a
6 printout of all data .I have in the computer. Give to FSO.
7 Then we went --
8 Q. Now, the -- let me make sure what's in front.of
9 you. In front of you are the written communications ns with
10 these people, you to them and them back to you, that you
11 asked to do the search?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Is .that all the communications you had with
14 them concerning the search?
15 A. No. There was verbal communications.
16 Q. Let me rephrase the question. That was unclear.
17 Are these all the written conversations between
18 you and them concerning the search?
19 A. Yes. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Have any communications been excluded in the
21 packet that you're supplying?
22 A. No, sir, they're complete.
23 Q. Does this include the records that you found? I
24 know the one attachment had the records that you were
25 looking through. Do these include all the records they
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1 found relating to any categories that you asked them to
2 search for?
3 A. They're not all here, but they've all been -
4 provided to you.
5 Q. I'm not sure we subpoenaed all those things,
6 but --
7 A. You did. You -- you subpoenaed the personnel
8 files, her ethics files, her correspondence files.
9 Q. I'm talking about in your initial list.
10 A. Yes, sir. Yes.
11 MR. WEINBERG:, Well, there are some things
12 that he described we haven't provided, like newspaper
13 articles that Brian Anderson, you know, found. That --
14 that wasn't called for and that's not in that pile.
15 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
16 A. Then we went to the accounts files IC. This is in
17 Flag Crew. This is the organization in -- here in
18 Clearwater that maintains records of her donations for
19 accommodations. For instance, if she was going to stay in
20 the Fort Harrison Hotel, money would be given to this
21 individual, there would be an account file there.
22 And what he did was, he printed off everything
23 that he had given to.us, actually given to us previously,
24 and I believe you have all of these things also. And he
25 says here, I don't have the folder of Lisa. It's possible
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1 that Judy Vantana has taken it. So I get a copy of the
2 statements and copy of every invoice. In other words, he
3 didn't have the file there, but what she did was she printed
4 out everything that was on the computer.
5 Q. Okay. Did you ever locate the file?
6 A. No , sir.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I think we turned it over
8 previously. I think that's part of the documents that
9 has been turned over previously. ._
10 MR. McGARRY: We have that.
11 Don't we have that, Wayne?
12 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Is it the bill
13 at 210?
14 MR. FUGATE: One of the reasons we asked to
15 postpone this until next week was because Laura Vaughn
16 has been doing this and she's got a better handle on
17 exactly what the document descriptions are, but I think
18 you have that.
19 MR. WEINBERG: We don't have it front of us
20 here, but I believe --
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: If I can see
22 what he's referring to, I can-tell you whether we have
23 it.
24 THE WITNESS: What I can tell you is the file
25 was not there.
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1 MR. CROW: I don't think we have any original
2 files.
3 MR. WEINBERG: We do. What has happened, we
4 have in our possession the originals of the documents
5 copied which we've produced. .
6 MR. CROW: So you've got that file?
7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm pretty sure we have that
8 file.
9 MR. CROW: So it's not missing?.
10 THE WITNESS: No, sir, it's not missing.
11 MR. CROW: That's all I wanted to know.
12 BY MR. CROW:
13 Q. Okay: Go ahead. Do you need this?
14 A. No, I don't. I'm just waiting for him.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. So then we went -- I went to the Folder Admin in
17 Division IV, which is where she would be receiving any kind
18 of -- of counseling, you know, auditing. And I went over
19 this., I handed this also to -- I forgot the individual's,
20 name, but we read through it. And I told her to.
21 specifically look -- I told her that the ethics -- the
22 personnel -- excuse me, the PC folders, I believe, were not
23 here, but she should look in all normal places for the PC
24 folders. She should also look in the folder warehouse,
25 because sometimes, you know, reports get separated from the
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1 PC folders.
2 Q. Whose PC folders are we talking about?
3 A. Lisa McPherson's.
4 Q. Did you ever check the PC folders or ethics
5 folders of any people about. whom we subpoenaed records?
6 A. The ethics folders, yes. The PC folders, no.
7 Q. Have the ethics folders for each of the persons we
8 subpoenaed records on been searched by you?
9 A. By me personally. I did the search myself.
10 Q. But not the PC folder? ,
11 A. No, sir. No, it's not logical there'd be reports
12 about Lisa McPherson in their folders at all, not at all.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. He says he -- he attests that he's done this again
15 and that there's no -- nothing's been found.
16 Let's see. Where did we -- the Captain,
17 FSO's Office, we went to her office. I thought on-the odd
18 chance that something would be laying around in her files
19 So I spoke to her two secretaries and I had her two
20 secretaries go through her office. Okay? She found
21 nothing. I didn't see her physically do it myself, but I
22 know her secretaries were briefed on it and she assured me
23 that she had searched the files.
24 Then I went to the Accounts officer in the -- in
25 the FSO, actually. This would be the Church, in other
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1 words, separate from accommodations, where people would make
2 donations. And I went over this with the -- with the
3 Treasury Secretary at the time, Matt Persh, and he called in
4 several individuals and we briefed them on this. I don't
5 remember the individuals' names. But here's a printout of
6 her materials here.
7 Hotel Manager of the Fort Harrison. In other
8 words, the individual who's responsible for assigning rooms
9 to parishioners. He says there are no records his
10 area.
11 Q. There are none kept or none remaining?
12 A. None kept. In other words, there wouldn't be
13 anything. I was concerned that, let's say, for instance,
14 she paid for food or someone paid for food on her behalf and
15 there might be records there, kept in the hotel records, but
16 there weren't. He said they normally wouldn't be there. He
17 said, We do not keep any records as such.
18 Then we went to the Public MLO's Office. That is
19 Emma Schamehorn.
20 Q. Instead of just giving the abbreviation, why don't
21 you say what that stands for.
22 A. Oh, Medical Liaison Office. In other words, Emma
23 was responsible for helping parishioners of the Church find
24 competent medical care. She's a liaison between the
25 individual and the doctors.
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1 Okay. And she -- she describes what she found.
2 You can read this. She said -- she said any reports written
3 on her were turned into the CS. I recently declassed the
4 drawer that I kept Admin in and some miscellaneous reports
5 on public were there. We do not keep a file for each public
6 person seen.
7 Q. Okay. She said all the reports on-her were turned
8 over to the CS?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Being the Church?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Or a specific office in the Church?
13 A. Exactly.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Tell him what the CS is.
15 THE WITNESS: The Case Supervisor. That --
16 MR. McGARRY: Kartuzinski.
17 THE WITNESS: That would be Kartuzinski at
18 this particular -- just to cut it short, I mean, she
19 was one of the individuals in the watch, so that's
20 where it would have gone.
21 A. So the central file folders that the CF Officer --
22 he said he gave the files to us in February, that's down
23 there. You have that now.
24 That was Flag Land Base. That's everybody here in
25 Clearwater.
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1 Q. That you talked to? .
2 A. Yes, sir. In other words, here in the area.
3 Q. And you never sent out any of these~communications
4 to the actual individuals?
5 A. No, not the individuals named here, except for
6 Emma.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And then I did talk to Alice Vangrondelle, you
9 know, as described before.
10 Then we went to Dallas, Texas. Lisa was there
11 for -- you know, most of her Scientology career was -- was
12 there in Dallas. She was a Staff member there in Dallas,
13 Texas, too for years. She was married twice there in
14 Dallas, Texas, one to another Staff member of the Church.
15 Many of her friends were there in Dallas, Texas. So I knew
16 there would be lots of records there.
17 So at -- I don't know if you want me to cover
18 that, because it didn't really answer your subpoenas here.
19 Do you want me to go over that also?
20 Q. Sure.
21 A. So we went to my contact terminal. I established
22 a contact terminal there in Dallas, Texas, by the name of
23 Diane Canon.
24 Q. By contact terminal, you mean --
25 A. I talked to a few --
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1 Q. What is a contact terminal? You just talked to
2 another person? Is that jargon for -
3 A. Yeah. This -- I assigned -- I told her I'm the
4 Custodian of Records of the church, you have to see that a
5 successful search is done in your specific area by the
6 following individuals. And I mailed to her all of the --
7 the -- the dispatches, you know, the requests for
8 information. I told her to take those personally to each of
9 the individuals, to read them to them, to have them read
10 them there, to get any questions clarified. In short, do
11 nothing short of turning the place upside down looking for
12 the records.
13 She conducted several searches in the area,
14 actually. She told me that Lisa would probably be a
15 parishioner at the old Mission. In other words, this was a
16 Celebrity Center in Dallas. It's a specific Church in
17 Dallas for prominent members of the Church. There are
18 also -- there was also a Mission in Dallas, Texas, and she
19 communicated to me that Lisa might have had something to do
20 with the Mission. So she went off and conducted a search in
21 the Mission.
22 And we went to -- we sent to her office --
23 Q. What did she do, look for things filed under
24 Lisa McPherson, or did she look through pieces of paper and
25 every record, or what does turning the office over mean?
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1 A. Turning the office meant -- again I can go over
2 these seven -- these seven points to you. This is what
3 she -- she was looking for. .
4 Q. I understand that. What I'm saying is, how -- in
5 terms of how she looked for it, was indexes she used, how
6 she would decide here the records might be, did you leave
7 that up to her discretion based upon the knowledge of local
8 records or did you say I want every piece of paper in this
9 place looked at or what. directions did you give her? Or did
10 you just give her the general direction, if there's anything
11 here, I want it found, and leave it up to her as to .how it
12 was done?
13 A. Actually, both. But specifically, there are posts
14 in the order, similar. For instance, there's a Senior CS in
15 the Church there, there's a Staff ethics file, a routing and
16 personnel person, an ACL, there's an Executive Director in
17 that organization. -And there were individual dispatches
18 written to them. So she was to take those dispatches to
19 those individuals and make sure they understood them and
20 they read them and they got any questions answered.
21 And then there was a catch-all there too. I told
22 her -- see, based on my work with Mrs. Vaughn, we were
23 looking for correspondence files. We were previously
24 looking for correspondence files between Lisa and several
25 Staff members there in -- in the Church in Dallas. And I
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1 told -- and she had not found some of those things.
2 And I told her, I said, Well, this is it, this is
3 your, search. You must find what is there or not find them.
4 In other words, turn the house upside down. Look in every
5 file if you have to to convince yourself that there is
6 nothing there from Lisa McPherson regarding correspondence
7 between your -- herself -- Lisa and her -- her Staff.
8 In fact, I think -- is that copy in here too? She
9 kept detailed notes of the searches done- for correspondence.
10 She. even conducted a project. She took various volunteers
11 in the Church, both parishioners and Staff members, and they
12 systematically went-through all the correspondence files.
13 Q. We didn't subpoena any correspondence --
14 MR. FUGATE: This is --
15 MR. CROW: The civil case?
16 MR. FUGATE: -- more in response to the civil
17 case.
18 MR. WEINBERG: And we have subsequently
19 turned over, I believe, a lot of that stuff to y'all as
20 a result to the subpoena.
21 MR. CROW: I'm looking for the search for
22 missing records.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That's what they're -- they're
24 not just looking for documents, they're looking for all
25 the documents.
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1 MR. CROW: Despite that, I'm interested in
2 talking to him today about the search for missing
3 records.
4 MR. WEINBERG: It's hard to do that --
5 THE WITNESS: The missing records I believe
6 you're talking about would have been included in this.
7 That's why we were doing it.
8 BY MR. CROW:
9 Q. They weren't correspondence, they were caretaker
10 notes and reports of the events of the day of her death.
11 A. Right. You're talking about these two.
12 Q: Yeah, the two subpoenas.
13 A. Yeah, that's right.
14 Q. So the correspondence files, how hard they looked
15 for the correspondence files doesn't really relate to how
16 hard they looked for the caretaker notes, is what I'm
17 suggesting.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Okay?
20 A. Okay, yeah. Again, this would be -- this would
21 be -- this is the Church of Scientology in Dallas. I don't
22 think you'd find the caretaker reports there
23 Q. Okay. So this --
24 A. Would be unlikely. .
25 Q. This request is kind of irrelevant to the
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1 subpoenas today, it was more the civil case?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. FUGATE: Except it included the
4 information --
5 MR. WEINBERG: How can you say that?
6 MR. CROW: I can't say that, I'm asking the
7 witnesses.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on. Hold on.
9 MR. CROW: You don't testify for him.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No. You say is it --
11 MR. CROW: I asked is it irrelevant, he can
12 answer yes.
13 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not irrelevant.
14 MR. CROW: Let him answer, not you.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I want to say something
16 though.
17 MR. CROW: You're not the witness.
18 MR. WEINBERG: That's right. But you asked
19 us to certify -- bring somebody into say they made a
20 search of the church for documents, and the Church in
21 this case doesn't just include Clearwater and --
22 Clearwater, it was L.A. and Dallas, because those were
23 other places for records, and that's what he's trying
24 to explain to you.
25 MR. CROW: I understand exactly what he's
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1 saying.
2 MR. WEINBERG: It is not irrelevant, Doug.
3 MR. CROW: Well, the searching for
4 correspondence is irrelevant -- not relevant to whether
5 they were looking for the caretaker records.
6 MR. WEINBERG: That ain't all he said. He
7 said he searched for everything, which included, if you
8 look at the list, the caretaker letters.
9 Go ahead.
10 BY MR. CROW:.
11 Q. Go ahead. What was your answer to my last
12 question?
13 A. Well, it -- yeah, in relation to these -- these
14 subpoenas, these correspond files don't apply.
15 Q. Okay. What about the Church of Dallas area, did
16 you -- did you -- you indicated you were searching for
17 logical areas where those records might be. Is that one of
18 the logical areas where you thought those records might be,
19 the caretaker records?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. So you thought they might be there?
22 A. I thought there's the remote possibility they
23 could be there, so that's what we were doing.
24 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
25 A. So she found -- she looked in Lisa McPherson's
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1 correspondence file, it was incomplete. She looked--
2 Q. What does that mean?
3 A. It was incomplete in that the things that I was
4 looking for -- and again I'm tying this into, some of the
5 work we did on the civil case -- was not there in the file.
6 Q. Okay. Incomplete meaning there were missing
7 documents --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- that should have been there, that you expected
10 to be there.that were not there?
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. What missing documents are you talking about?
13 A. Specifically, there were letters from Lisa to a
14 Staff member there in Dallas regarding her intentions on
15 Thanksgiving weekend, 1995.
16 Q. Okay. How did you know they existed if they
17 weren't in that file?
18 A. Because the -- the person who was answering her
19 communication made reference to letters. For instance,
20 she -- and I found the letter now, so I can talk and say
21 that I did find it.
22 Q. Well, then jump ahead to where you found it.
23 Let's go there.
24 A. Okay. To make a long story short, they found it
25 in a completely irrelevant area, in a -- in an area of back
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1 filed particles. Particles meaning letters In other
2 words -- .
3 Q. "Particles" is a --
4 A. Is a common Scientology term for these.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. An entity, you know. We call them particles.
7 Q. "Entity" being a piece of paper with writing on
8 it?
9 A. Exactly. Exactly.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And she had no less than ten people working-on
12 that, on and off, probably three weeks.
13 Anyway -
14 Q. Is there any particular reason you were
15 specifically concerned with that letter?
16 A. Yes. And I'll talk about the civil case.
17 There were allegations that Lisa wanted. to leave
18 the Church and that she had -- she was going home and she
19 was going to stay home. I believe those allegations were
20 made by Miss Kelly Davis.
21 The letters documented that she was not going home
22 to not be a Scientologist. Among other things, she was
23 going home to work with other Scientologists in the Dallas
24 area-to establish what we call an OT Committee, a committee
25 of Scientologists,who form together and formulate plans and
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1 activities for the Church. And this was alluded to.
2 And the Staff member -- in the Dallas Staff
3 member's letter he said, Great, I'm glad you're going to be
4 here, we'll see when you come to Dallas, we'll get everybody
5 together, some words to this effect. And we were all
6 puzzled, well, what does she write to this individual that
7 would cause him to say these things? Especially it. seemed
8 to be contrary to what, I think, Miss Davis was saying about
9 what she was going to do there. And sure enough, we found
10 the letters that said what she was going to do.
11 Q. Okay. So that's why that correspondence was of
12 particular interest to you?
13 A. Of particular interest to everyone, really, at
14 that time.
15 Okay. We'll go on reading Dallas. We caused a
16 search in the Senior CS Office, which is an office -- any
17 one of these reports could have made it into her -- the
18 Senior CS Office in Dallas. Some of those reports were
19 addressed to Senior CS. Senior CS is actually a common term
20 in each-Church. There's always one Minister who --
21 Q. How does the Senior CS keep files? Are they
22 chronological? By name? Say somebody writes a letter to
23 the CS, it concerns Lisa McPherson. How is that filed?
24 A. It would depend. If it's about -- if it's
25 concerning a case matter, regarding an auditing session, a
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1 spiritual counseling session, it would go in the person's PC
2 folder.
3 Q. So the PC folder is supposed to be at the office
4 there in Dallas? She had -- she had a PC --
5 A. It could have been.
6 Q. Does she have a PC folder in Dallas and in
7 Clearwater and Los Angeles, or does she only have one?
8 A. No, there's many PC folders. Now they're in
9 Los Angeles. But at one time -- at one time they did exist
10 in Dallas, Texas.
11 Q. How did you know -- I mean, at the time you were
12 making the search did they exist or were they already in
13 Los Angeles?
14 A. No, at the time I did the search they were already
15 in Los Angeles. Perhaps there would be a folder there,
16 perhaps there could be a misrouted particle, report, perhaps
17 it could be there. Again, you understand we were just
18 looking for everywhere and everything. They found nothing.
19 Person by the name of Cindy Hoenstein.
20 Then we went to Staff ethics files. She was a
21 Staff member. She was a Staff member under the name of
22 Lisa Skonetski and also McPherson. And that was not there.
23 Typically when a Staff member leaves the -- a
24 Church of Scientology as a Staff member, personnel files,
25 their Staff personnel files are sent to the Church of
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1 Scientologist international, what-we call the Senior ACO
2 Office. So I -- I thought perhaps that the file could be --
3 there could be misfiled particles there. They could have
4 missed it. That's why I asked this person if there was, but
5 there wasn't.
6 The Bureau of Routing and Personnel, I asked in
7 that area too, Skonetski and McPherson, and we-found
8 nothing.
9 We went to their Executive Director's Office. It
10 was unlikely -- unlikely there was anything there
11 Q. Let me see if I understand. You felt there might
12 be records relating to the time frame of Lisa McPherson's
13 death concerning Lisa McPherson, they might be back -- they
14 might be filed at the office where she'd been previously a
15 Staff member?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. So even though the PC folder was not-there,
18 it was in Los Angeles ---
19 A. Right.
20 Q. -- there might be other files, because she used to
21 work there, it might have been routed to where she used to
22 work?
23 A. Exactly.
24 Q. Okay. So did you check all these other Staff
25 members, did you check in the places where they used to work
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1 to see if any of their reports were misfiled?
2 A. No, I didn't, actually.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I didn't think of that, actually.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Mainly because the Staff members, most of the
7 Staff members started here and have been here since, well,
8 early '81.
9 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
10 A. I think it would be unlikely.
11 There was the Bureau of Routing and Personnel,
12 Dallas, Executive Director's Office, the finance area, which
13 was one individual who -- who performed many functions. You
14 know, in a small church sometimes the Treasury Chief is
15 really the Accounts Files IC and also handles all the filing
16 and correspondence. In other words, he's everything wrapped
17 together. So he answered for a number of areas.
18 Then we went to the Addresso Officer. I spoke to
19 the Addresso Officer personally. He didn't find anything.
20 Central files Office. He said that he found
21 nothing in relation to this. However, they did turn over a
22 number of files to me. In fact, from CC Dallas I found
23 three central files in total, three central file folders.
24 What's this? Oh, this is just part of her search.
25 We've already gone over that.
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*** Pages 145-153 missing.
154
1 with the documents Mr. Steilo has just reviewed
2 regarding his correspondence to and from people with
3 regard to the April/May search for documents in
4 Clearwater and in Dallas and in L.A.
5 MR. CROW: Okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: We'll just turn that over to
7 you. That's yours.
8 MR. CROW: Okay. And what -- and I know
9 everybody's tired, but I'm genuinely confused and I
10 feel the necessity of going back over the initial
11 search and the initial subpoenas and your involvement
12 in that. Do y'all want to keep going? Do you want to
13 break it off?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Let me tell you what my
15 problem is.
16 Off the record.
17 (Off the record.)
18 (Statement is adjourned at 5:15 p.m.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4
5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
7 WITNESS my hand and offficial seal this ___ day
of ________________, 1997.
8
(signed & stamped, July 30 1997)
9
________________________________
10 RUTH M: MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
12
13
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
15
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and
17 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.
18
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee,
19 attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a
relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
20 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
21
22 DATED this ____ day of _____________________, 1997.
23
(signed, 30 july 1997)
24
________________________
25 RUTH M. MARTIN, RMR
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320