Lisa McPherson Files - Statement of Barbro Wennberg
This is the
statement of Barbro Wennberg, a Scientologist who was assigned to watch Lisa
McPherson.
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2
3
4
5 ____________________________________________________________________
6
7 STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
8
RE: LISA McPHERSON
9
10 ___________________________________________________________
11
12 SWORN
STATEMENT OF: BARBRO WENNBERG.
13
TAKEN BY: Mark McGarry,
14 Assistant State Attorney.
15 DATE: April 10, 1997.
16 BEFORE: Lynne J. Ide, RPR, RMR
Notary Public,
17 State of Florida at Large.
18 PLACE: Office of State Attorney
Criminal Justice Center
19 B200
Clearwater, Florida.
20
21
22
23
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
24 TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT (813)224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER (813)821-3320
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Assistant State Attorney
4 Attorney for State of Florida.
5
ALLAN "LEE" STROPE,
6 Special Agent,
Florida Department of Law Enforcement
7 28870 U.S. Highway 19 North
Suite 200
8 Clearwater, Florida 34621
9
JORGE CARRASQUILLO,
10 Detective,
Clearwater Police Department
11 Clearwater, Florida.
12
ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE
13 Barnett Bank Plaza
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
14 Suite 3130
Tampa, Florida 33602
15 Counsel for the Witness.
16
17
18
INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS
19
Examination by Mr. McGarry Page 3
20 Examination by Agent Strope Page 26
Examination by Detective Carrasquillo Page 43
21 Continued Examination by Agent Strope Page 57
22
23
24
25
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1 (Witness sworn).
2 MR. POLLI: We are here today pursuant to a
3 State Attorney investigation subpoena issued by
4 Mr. McGarry's office.
5 I have discussed the protections that are
6 included and provided in Florida Statutes 914.04 with Miss
7 Wennberg. I believe she understands what those
8 protections are and we are here to proceed accordingly.
9 Thank you.
10 BARBRO WENNBERG,
11 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
12 and testified as follows:
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. McGARRY:
15 Q. We will begin. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm a
16 prosecutor.
17 We are investigating the death of Lisa
18 McPherson. Your name has come up in reference to her stay
19 at the cabana section of the Ft. Harrison building during
20 the period of time November of `95 and December of `95.
21 Before we begin with those dates specifically, I
22 would like to ask you what your birth date is, if we
23 could.
24 A. 12 November, 1956.
25 Q. Okay. And where do you currently reside?
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1 A. In QY.
2 Q. That is church property?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Is that -- do you have a roommate, or you live
5 there by yourself?
6 A. No, I have my husband.
7 Q. Your husband?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is he also a member of the church?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Are you employed by the church as a staff
12 member?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Is he?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 MR. POLLI: You have to answer "yes."
17 A. Yes.
18 BY MR. McGARRY:
19 Q. You have to say "yes."
20 MR. POLLI: Or "no."
21 A. All right.
22 BY MR. McGARRY:
23 Q. Because she can't write that down.
24 A. Got it.
25 Q. How long have you been a member of the church?
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1 A. Since 1979.
2 Q. All right. And when did you move to Clearwater?
3 A. 1984.
4 Q. And when you joined the church in `79, where was
5 that?
6 A. Stockholm, Sweden.
7 Q. And at sometime did you get transferred to the
8 you United States by the church?
9 A. No. I was -- it was myself.
10 Q. Okay, forgive me, some other people said they
11 were requested to move to other areas by the church. But
12 you came to the United States on your own?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. When did you move to the United States?
15 A. 1984.
16 Q. And that was to Clearwater?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 MR. POLLI: Yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 BY MR. McGARRY:
21 Q. What was your purpose. for moving to Clearwater?
22 A. To work here in the church.
23 Q. Okay. That is what I suspected.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And what line of work did they request that you
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1 do when you came to Clearwater?
2 A. Any -- nothing particular. It was whatever was
3 needed in the church at the time.
4 Q. Okay. What was your title as a staff member in
5 1984?
6 A. 1984? I'm thinking of where I was as far as
7 education at that time. I was probably expediter, the
8 first thing.
9 MR. McGARRY: Did you catch that, Lee?
10 AGENT STROPE: Expediter.
11 BY MR. McGARRY:
12 Q. Expediter?
13 How long have you been married?
14 A. Since 1983.
15 Q. Is your husband an American, or Swedish?
16 A. Swedish.
17 Q. Sometime did you -- are you still a Swedish
18 citizen, or American?
19 A. No, we are still Swedish.
20 Q. You have a visa, working visa, here in
21 Clearwater?
22 A. Yes, religious.
23 Q. Religious working visa?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 MR. POLLI: Yes, or no?
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1 A. Yes.
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. What are your duties at the church now?
4 A. It is called Inspections and Reports.
5 Q. Inspections and Reports?
6 A. Uh-huh, Director of Inspections and Reports.
7 Q. Okay. And what were your duties at the church
8 back in November of 1995?
9 A. Same thing.
10 Q. What are the duties of your husband now?
11 A. He is called -- his title is FSC, Int. He's
12 taking care of the consultant offices we have around the
13 world.
14 Q. When was the first time you can recall that you
15 met Lisa McPherson?
16 A. The first time I went to watch with her.
17 Q. Excuse me?
18 A. The first time I went to watch her.
19 Q. Watch her?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Who asked you to participate in this
22 watch?
23 A. P.K.
24 Q. Paul Kellerhous?
25 A. Yeah. Sorry.
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1 Q. Okay. And do you recall when it was he asked
2 you to participate?
3 A. I don't have the dates particularly.
4 MR. POLLI: Here are some calendars,
5 November of `95 and December of `95. See if you can
6 figure it out.
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. Thanksgiving is a good reference if that helps
9 at all. If you can't pin it down, then we'll just work
10 around it.
11 MR. POLLI: There is the 23rd.
12 MR. McGARRY: I think she got to the
13 hospital, correct me if I'm wrong, Lee, on the 18th?
14 AGENT STROPE: On the 18th.
15 MR. McGARRY: Right. And she left the
16 hospital on the 5th of December.
17 MR. POLLI: She left the church.
18 MR. McGARRY: I mean the church.
19 MR. POLLI: So we are operating between
20 here and December 5th (indicating). Of course I didn't
21 bring the calendar we were working on, but --
22 BY MR. McGARRY:
23 Q. Well, let me just start off and I'll try to
24 narrow it down for you. Okay?
25 A. Uh-huh.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. When Mr. Kellerhous asked you to participate in
2 this watch, had Lisa already been there a few days?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Do you know that?
5 A. Yeah, I know that.
6 Q. Maybe a week or somewhere in the middle of all
7 this that you got involved?
8 A. No, I think it was about four or five days she
9 had been there.
10 Q. Okay, that helps. What did Mr. Kellerhous tell
11 you you were going to be required to do?
12 A. Watch her. Make sure she doesn't hurt herself
13 or hurt others.
14 Q. Do you know why you were selected to participate
15 in this?
16 A. Because I would be able to do it and because I
17 was available.
18 Q. Were you ever given a schedule of which dates
19 you were going to do this? Or did he just ask you to do
20 it for a specific time period? Were you given a schedule?
21 A. No, I wasn't given a schedule.
22 Q. Okay. So how did you know when to go?
23 A. Oh, somebody else came in probably. I don't
24 remember exactly how I would know that. But I knew we
25 weren't -- I wasn't supposed to be there very much longer
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1 anyway, I know I wasn't going to be there for like a day.
2 Q. Let me narrow some things down, then we'll get
3 more specific.
4 How many days total did you watch Lisa
5 McPherson?
6 A. In total?
7 Q. In total?
8 A. Between one and two days.
9 Q. Okay. And that was somewhere four or five days
10 into her stay?
11 A. The first time, yes.
12 Q. Okay. So they weren't two days next to each
13 other?
14 A. No.
15 Q. They were one day, then another day?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Do you know how many days were in between the
18 two days?
19 A. A week, approximately.
20 Q. Okay. So you are watching her in the middle of
21 her stay, then toward the end of her stay, is that --
22 A. Yes. It is about, I think there is about a week
23 left or something, maybe even more, to watch -- from the
24 end of the stay when I watched her the last time.
25 Q. I think I'm following you. Okay, do you recall
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1 on your first watch what time of day that was? Was it in
2 the morning? The evening? The afternoon? Late at night?
3 A. I think it was in the afternoon toward the
4 evening.
5 Q. Okay. And do you recall who it was that you
6 relieved when you got to the watch? Who was there before
7 you?
8 A. I think it was Heather.
9 Q. Okay. Was there anybody else there? Or just
10 one person?
11 A. It would have been two people. I don't remember
12 who the second was.
13 Q. Okay. And that afternoon of your first watch do
14 you recall what Lisa was doing and how she was acting?
15 A. She was pacing.
16 Q. Okay. Was there anything else that she was
17 doing?
18 A. She was restless.
19 Q. Okay. In the description of your duties at the
20 cabana with Lisa, were you there to take care of her?
21 Feed her? Watch her? Keep her from harming herself? Can
22 you describe exactly what you were doing?
23 A. Yeah, making sure that she wouldn't be harming
24 herself and that she -- help her if she needed anything,
25 and, yes, if she needed -- if it was time for food, to
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1 give her any food needed.
2 Q. Okay. And did you end up feeding her food?
3 A. No, because when I think about it, I think it
4 was probably after that time that I came.
5 Q. Okay. During your period of time -- how long a
6 period of time did you watch her?
7 A. The first time?
8 Q. Yes, ma'am.
9 A. It was a few hours. Then I was -- I was there
10 overnight. Somebody else was awake. I slept part of the
11 night on the bed in there at the same time.
12 Q. I'm not sure I follow you. You were there for a
13 couple of hours and then somebody else came?
14 A. Well, there was somebody else in there at the
15 same time.
16 Q. Okay. You don't remember who that was?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Back to how long you stayed, you left after a
19 few hours on the first --
20 A. No, I was there overnight. I slept.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. So I left sometime in the morning.
23 Q. Where did you sleep?
24 A. In the same room. There was a bed -- it was her
25 bed, then there was another bed by the door.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 Q. So there are two beds in that room?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. When you went to the door to go into this room,
4 did you notice if there was a security guard outside the
5 door?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Who was that?
8 MR. POLLI: Yes or no.
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 BY MR. McGARRY:
11 Q. Who was that?
12 A. I think it was Sam.
13 Q. Okay. And how did you go about getting into the
14 room? Did he let you in the room?
15 A. I don't know. I mean, he could have. Or I
16 could have gone in myself. I don't know.
17 Q. Okay. You don't remember?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you recall whether the door was locked, or
20 unlocked?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Can you describe the behavior of Lisa
23 McPherson during your first watch?
24 A. She was restless. She was walking around in the
25 room.
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1 Q. When you came in, did you speak to her?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You didn't say "Hi, I'm so and so, nice to meet
4 you"?
5 A. No. She wasn't in a condition really to talk
6 to. She wasn't, like, there.
7 Q. Okay. Were you also practicing the no
8 communication practice that was going on at that time?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. So you weren't trying to initiate conversation?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Did Lisa exhibit any bizarre physical behavior
13 toward you or herself during this first watch?
14 A. No, I don't think so.
15 Q. She didn't try to hit you or hurt herself or
16 roll around on the floor or --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- Jump up and down on the bed or anything, take
19 her clothes off?
20 A. Not that I remember, not on the first.
21 Q. Okay. So other than wandering around and being
22 restless, you don't remember any specific odd behavior on
23 that first watch?
24 A. Talking to herself maybe. I'm mixing together
25 sometimes these two incidents.
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1 Q. Okay. Well, do the best you can. You don't
2 remember who came into the room while you were sleeping
3 and watched --
4 A. Possibly Rita Boykin. That is one person I
5 remember.
6 Q. Okay. So how many days later was your second
7 watch?
8 A. About a week.
9 Q. Okay. And do you remember what time that watch
10 started? Was it in the morning, or in the afternoon?
11 A. Yeah, I got called in about seven o'clock in the
12 morning, something like that.
13 Q. All right. And who called you?
14 A. Someone from security. I don't remember.
15 Q. Okay. And when you arrived at Lisa's room, who
16 was there?
17 A. Joan Stevens.
18 Q. Joan what?
19 A. Stevens.
20 Q. Who else was in the room on the second watch?
21 A. Besides Lisa, I don't think there was anybody.
22 Q. Okay. Can you describe how Lisa was on this
23 particular day?
24 A. She was, umm, more violent. Throughout the stay
25 I was there, she was, umm, trying to slap me. And she
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1 slapped Joan and she tried to poke out her eye, or at
2 least poke in her eye.
3 Q. What did you do when that occurred?
4 A. Well, you see, I was in a different part of the
5 room when that was occurring. I was there (gesturing) and
6 Joan was there, and she was doing it to Joan. It was a
7 bit too late for me to do anything about that, Joan
8 already backed off. She was trying to do it with me, too,
9 but I just backed off.
10 Q. Okay. Was security ever called in?
11 A. Later on, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Can you describe that for me.
13 A. Well, she was getting too violent so we asked
14 basically for help from security to get a doctor there or
15 whoever was supposed to help, help medically.
16 Q. Okay. And did you ever see a doctor?
17 A. Well, I saw Dr. Houghton.
18 THE REPORTER: Can you spell that?
19 A. HOUGHTON.
20 Q. He came to the room?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. What time was that?
23 A. Around lunch time.
24 MR. McGARRY: Have you heard this name
25 before?
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1 MR. POLLI: Yes.
2 MR. McGARRY: You have?
3 MR. POLLI: I heard it from her. I think
4 his name is David Houghton.
5 BY MR. McGARRY:
6 Did he come while you were there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And what did he do while you were there?
9 A. He was basically feeding her -- trying to get
10 her to eat. She didn't want to eat.
11 Then he was giving her some mild sedative to get
12 her to calm down.
13 Q. Okay. And do you know what that sedative was?
14 A. It was aspirin and antihistamine.
15 Q. Was it a prescription, or not?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know, or -- do you know?
18 A. No, I don't know.
19 Q. All right. Did you ever see any chlorhydrate
20 pills around at that time?
21 A. What?
22 Q. Chlorhydrate pills?
23 A. What is that?
24 Q. Some pills that were prescribed for Lisa during
25 her stay to help her sleep?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Possibly prescribed by Dr. Minkoff and/or
3 obtained through or by Janice Johnson?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Had you ever seen Dr. Houghton before?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. You had?
8 A. Yes. I mean, he works at the church.
9 Q. Okay. And is he on staff in the medical liaison
10 office?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Is he?
13 MR. POLLI: Yes, or no?
14 A. Yes.
15 BY MR. McGARRY:
16 Q. And is he still on staff at the medical liaison
17 office?
18 A. Yes.
19 0. To your knowledge, could you tell whether or not
20 he had been in that room before with Lisa? Or could you
21 -- or do you know?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Who called Dr. Houghton in?
24 A. Security, I think.
25 Q. So now who were all of the people that are in
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1 the room at this time while Dr. Houghton is in there?
2 A. It is me, Joan Stevens, and I think Heather
3 shows up, and then P.K., as well, comes in. And
4 Dr. Houghton. Might have been another person, too, but I
5 don't remember who it was. Rita Boykin might have been
6 there, too.
7 Q. Okay. Did Dr. Houghton have any success with
8 Lisa as far as settling her down?
9 A. Yeah, she did definitely calm down after this.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And she tried to sleep.
12 Q. She did?
13 A. Yeah. It was obvious she was trying to sleep.
14 Q. Did Dr. Houghton give you any further
15 instructions to assist you in your care of Lisa McPherson?
16 A. Umm, just, you know, to let her sleep. And --
17 which time was it? It was lunch time. I wonder if we
18 tried to give her something to eat at the same time, as
19 well.
20 I was at least concerned that she didn't eat,
21 and I think most of us were, so we might have given her -
22 something to eat, as well, after that, but I'm not sure.
23 It is just some idea I have.
24 Q. Okay. Do you recall in this second watch her
25 eating anything in your presence?
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1 A. Yeah, she was given pancakes and eggs, as far as
2 I remember. And she took some of the egg and pressed it
3 against her mouth, she might have gotten a small piece
4 down her throat, then she spit it out, the rest. And she
5 threw the pancakes on the wall.
6 Q. I heard that before.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. How long did David -- or, excuse me,
9 Dr. Houghton spend with Lisa on that day, do you remember?
10 A. About an hour, I think, at least when I was
11 there, because I wasn't there the whole day, I left
12 somewhere after lunch.
13 Q. Okay. Do you recall who replaced you, if
14 anybody?
15 A. I think it was Heather.
16 Q. All right. So that second watch lasted from the
17 morning until a little after lunch?
18 A. Yeah. Midafternoon, maybe.
19 Q. Okay. During that period of time did you jot
20 down any notes as far as the behavior you observed or make
21 any record or report?
22 A. No, not during while I was in there.
23 Q. You didn't -- you don't recall writing any
24 reports?
25 A. Afterwards.
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1 Q. Okay. Let's skip to that for just a second.
2 When was that report written?
3 A. I would have written it somewhere in the
4 afternoon after I came out.
5 Q. Oh, okay. After the watch?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. And after the second watch?
8 A. Uh-huh, I don't recall doing it after the first
9 one, but after the second one.
10 Q. Okay. Do you recall how long the report was?
11 One-page? Two-page?
12 A. One page, at the most.
13 Q. Okay. And do you recall what you wrote on that
14 report?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was it anything we've talked about today?
17 A. Yes. I would have -- I would have -- I mean, I
18 just projected what I would put in it.
19 Q. And who did you hand that report to?
20 A. Security.
21 Q. That would have been Sam? Or Alphonso possibly?
22 Or --
23 A. I don't remember who. I mean, whoever was in
24 there.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 MR. POLLI: Want to give her the stack? It
2 is pretty much the same stack we have, but just for the
3 record she can flip through, because I don't have
4 everything you have.
5 BY MR. McGARRY:
6 Q. See if you can recognize one of your reports if
7 it is in there.
8 A. No, I can't see it.
9 Q. Okay. So you don't see it in that --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- that collection there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You don't -- do you have any objection to us
14 reading that in the event we obtain it from the church?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You don't know exactly where that report went
17 after you gave it to the security officer, do you?
18 A. Uh-uh.
19 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you write another report at the very end of --
22 this thing when -- after you learned that Lisa had died?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 MR. POLLI: Yes?
25 A. Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 BY MR. McGARRY:
2 Q. Was that for Marcus Quirino?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you go to -- were you called to a meeting,
5 after Lisa died, with a group of people that watched her
6 in reference to Lisa's death?
7 A. Uh-huh, yes.
8 Q. And who called you to that meeting?
9 A. P.K., as far as I remember.
10 Q. And did you meet with Marcus Quirino and other
11 people there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What occurred at that meeting, please?
14 A. I was just told to write up what happened.
15 Q. And did you do that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who did you give that report to?
18 A. Marcus or P.K.
19 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Lisa again after that
20 second watch that you have described?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever spend any time in the room with
23 Lisa while Janice Johnson was in the room with you?
24 A. I don't think so.
25 Q. How about Laura? Do you know who Laura is?
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1 A. Yeah, I know who she is. I don't think so,
2 either.
3 Q. Did Lisa ever tell you or request to -- tell you
4 she wanted to leave the room or try to leave, physically
5 leave the room, in your presence?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you present when security had to come in
8 the room and restrain Lisa because she was acting kind of
9 violent?
10 A. You mean security? You mean P.K.?
11 Q. Well, anybody, Sam or Alphonso or whoever was
12 outside the door.
13 A. Well, there was that one day while I was there
14 that she was violent and P.K. had to come in.
15 Q. Okay. Did he physically have to restrain her?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what behavior was he restraining?
20 A. She was, umm, just pure violent, she was
21 attacking anything and everything, basically. And she was
22 also hurting herself, or trying to hurt herself, like, you
23 know, like falling down on the floor and stuff like that.
24 Q. Did you ever meet with Mr. Kartuzinski in
25 reference to this case?
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1 A. I don't know. I mean, I possibly have. But if
2 I have, it is -- it would probably be in the comm. cycle
3 with him or something. I don't remember specifically.
4 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with him
5 about Lisa during this period of time?
6 A. It is possible. I don't remember.
7 Q. Are you aware that Lisa was there at the cabana
8 for isolation to get her mental state back to normal so
9 she could participate in an introspective rundown cycle?
10 Were you aware of that?
11 Do you know what that means?
12 A. Yes, introspection, yeah, yeah, I mean --
13 Q. Were you aware that was what was occurring?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Is part of the plan for the introspective
16 rundown that somebody be calm and have their mental
17 faculties together?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So that was what the procedure that was going on
20 at the time you were there is to achieve that?
21 A. Yes, you could say that. We wanted to have her
22 in a good physical condition so she could get the
23 introspection rundown.
24 Q. Who is the individual that, had she obtained the
25 calmness and her mental state back again normal, who is
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1 the person that was going to administer that cycle?
2 A. Don't know.
3 Q. Who do I ask that would know that?
4 A. Senior CS, Alain.
5 Q. Kartuzinski would know that?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. McGARRY: I have no further questions.
8 These people would like to ask you some
9 questions. I always forget some of the points they might
10 bring up, so ...
11 THE WITNESS: Sure.
12 MR. McGARRY: If you would.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY AGENT STROPE:
15 Q. Mr. Kartuzinski, what was his title then?
16 A. Senior CS.
17 Q. Senior case supervisor?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. What is his title now?
20 A. That is a good question. He's in training.
21 He's doing training full-time.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Students.
24 Q. Are you familiar with Janice Johnson?
25 A. Uh-huh.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
27
1 Q. What was her title then?
2 A. I think she was -- I don't know. She was
3 working in the MW office. I don't know if she was
4 officially a doctor or not, but she had that training, I
5 know that.
6 Q. Could she have been the public medical liaison
7 officer?
8 A. Yeah, she could have.
9 Q. What is she doing now?
10 A. She's word clearer.
11 Q. So she works in staff college as a word clearer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is there a reason both her and Mr. Kartuzinski's
14 positions changed after Lisa passed away?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. You don't know that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you consider going from a senior case
19 supervisor to an instructor, or going from medical liaison
20 officer to word clearer, demotions?
21 A. Not necessarily. I mean, going from the public
22 medical office to the word clearer, I mean, that might be
23 a demotion.
24 For Senior CS to go to training, everybody is
25 going through the training, so I don't particularly
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
28
1 consider that demotion.
2 Q. Are you familiar with the term "Committee of
3 Evidence"?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Did you partake in the Committee of Evidence
6 having to do with this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did anybody ask you to write a report having to
9 do with --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- with the death of Lisa McPherson?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you yourself have any medical training?
14 A. Slight. I have been dental assistant.
15 Q. Been what?
16 A. Dental assistant.
17 Q. Dental assistant?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Here in this country?
20 A. No. Sweden.
21 And I have worked a couple summers in the
22 hospital as an assistant in hospital.
23 Q. So you are familiar with people who are ill?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
29
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you consider, if you compared the first day
3 that you watched with Lisa, to the last day that you
4 watched with Lisa, was there a difference in her medical
5 condition, not her psychiatric condition, but her medical
6 condition?
7 A. I didn't see any particular difference. She was
8 tired, I definitely saw she was tired. I didn't see any
9 difference in her physically. She was actually in pretty
10 good shape.
11 Q. She was in pretty good shape on the last day you
12 visited her?
13 A. Well, I mean, aside from being tired, she looked
14 still in pretty good shape.
15 Q. What about physically? Did she have any marks,
16 bruises?
17 A. I think I saw a red mark somewhere on her leg.
18 Q. That would have been which time, the second
19 time?
20 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
21 Q. You mentioned -- who was in charge of this
22 watch, do you know? Who was running the show?
23 A. Security. P.K., probably.
24 Q. So you say Kellerhous was running -- was he
25 making schedules and telling you when you had to be there
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
30
1 and telling other people when they had to be there?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 MR. POLLI: Yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If something went wrong, he was the one who you
6 would call?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, if something went wrong medically with
9 Lisa, who would you call?
10 A. I would still call security and get them to get
11 someone medical.
12 Q. Who was in charge of her medical condition?
13 A. I actually don't know exactly. But I know that
14 Dr. Houghton was called in at one time, but I don't know
15 that he was her medical doctor or anything like that.
16 Q. Who called Dr. Houghton?
17 A. Security.
18 Q. Who was present when Dr. Houghton was there?
19 A. It was me, it was Joan Stevens, I think Heather
20 was there, and Rita Boykin, and, umm, and Paul Kellerhous.
21 Those are the ones I remember.
22 Q. Do you have any knowledge that there were other
23 visits by Dr. Houghton after that day?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you discussed your testimony here today
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31
1 with anyone other than your own attorney?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You haven't talked to anybody about this?
4 A. No.
5 Q. No one within the church?
6 A. Uh-uh.
7 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Since December 5th of 1995 have you discussed
10 the death of Lisa McPherson with anyone?
11 A. Yeah, I have talked the case over with Joan,
12 Heather, Dr. Houghton --
13 Q. You have talked to Dr. Houghton about it?
14 A. I mean, at the brief comm. cycle, asked how she
15 died.
16 Q. What did he tell you?
17 A. This is a while back. This is about a year ago
18 or something.
19 A I'm surprised you remembered, but you have good
20 memory. You are the only one that remembered Dr. Houghton
21 was there.
22 A. Okay. He said that, umm, she died of, umm, --
23 you know, infection in the blood or something like that.
24 Q. So you don't remember --
25 A. Blood poisoning.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
32
1 Q. Blood poisoning?
2 A. Whatever it is called.
3 Q. So you don't remember specifically what he told
4 you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What was your conversation with Joan Stevens
7 about this case?
8 A. Just what we have to go through.
9 Q. Did you talk about the cause of Lisa's death
10 with Joan Stevens?
11 A. No, I don't think so.
12 Q. Did Dr. Houghton -- was Dr. Houghton there when
13 you and Joan Stevens were talking?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever talked to Dr. Johnson since this
16 about Lisa?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you friends with Dr. Johnson?
19 A. Not particularly.
20 Q. Do you see her occasionally?
21 A. Occasionally. I mean, I see her in the
22 distance. I hardly talk to her.
23 Q. You haven't discussed Lisa with her since Lisa
24 passed away?
25 A. I don't think so, no.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
33
1 Q. During your second watch, that would have been
2 the Thanksgiving day --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- was there a time when Lisa became violent in
5 the bathroom and broke something? Or --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Was she destructive? Tell me about that.
8 A. She got a hold of some plastic holder and she
9 was -- must have thrown it on the floor.
10 Q. So you had to -- tell me what happened, that was
11 it? She threw it on the floor and that was it? Did she
12 get violent before that, or after that?
13 A. She was violent before that.
14 Q. Did she strike you?
15 A. Oh, she tried to.
16 Q. Did she? Anybody strike her?
17 A. No.
18 Q. In self-defense maybe?
19 A. No.
20 Q. No?
21 Did Mr. Kellerhous come in?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 MR. POLLI: Yes?
24 A. Yes.
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
34
1 BY AGENT STROPE:
2 Q. And did he restrain her?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. With your help?
5 A. I think so. I don't remember. Umm, he pretty
6 much himself, you know, got her down on the bed.
7 Q. Were there any straps used or anything to --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- try to subdue her? Did she want to leave,
10 say "Get off me, let me out of here"?
11 A. Uh-uh.
12 THE REPORTER: Your answer?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You never heard her say she wanted to leave?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did she ever walk toward the door and try to
17 leave?
18 A. Not that I recall.
19 Q. If she had tried to walk out the door, would you
20 have allowed her to?
21 A. I don't know. I can't say.
22 Q. You can't say?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You don't know if you would have let her or not?
25 So you didn't know if he would have let her go if she
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
35
1 would have tried?
2 A. I mean, she was in such destructive state, if I
3 would have let her go out the door, then I have to be
4 responsible for destruction she would cause outside. I
5 don't think I would.
6 Q. Explain to me what Dr. Houghton did for Lisa.
7 Did he have a bag like a doctor's bag, do all those
8 things, you know, doctors travel around --
9 A. I didn't see a doctor's bag.
10 Q. Did you see a stethoscope?
11 A. I don't recall that either.
12 Q. A thermometer?
13 A. It is possible. I don't remember.
14 Q. Well, I mean, he's a doctor. He's there to
15 examine her.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Did he have tools of his trade with him? Did he
18 have a tongue depressor? Did he look in her throat?
19 A. I don't recall that.
20 Q. So what did he do?
21 A. He was feeding her, umm, with this yogurt mixed
22 with aspirin and antihistamine. This is what I remember.
23 I think it was aspirin. It was one of these --
24 Q. He -- you have to excuse me because I don't
25 know much about him, is he a practicing physician at the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
36
1 organization?
2 A. He's --
3 Q. In other words, if you get sick, do you go to
4 Dr. Houghton?
5 A. No. He's a dentist.
6 Q. Oh, he's a dentist?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. And is he a practicing dentist?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. In the city of Clearwater?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 MR. POLLI: Yes? Yes?
13 A. Yes, yes, yes.
14 BY AGENT STROPE:
15 Q. And he's a Scientologist?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Obviously?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it your impression that he was called in to
20 specifically look at Lisa?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Did he ever write a prescription for Lisa?
23 A. I have no idea.
24 Q. Have you ever heard of a doctor named Minkoff?
25 A. Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
1 Q. Do you know Mr. Minkoff?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where do you know him from?
4 A. He's a Scientologist.
5 Q. Okay. Have you met him, talked to him about
6 Lisa?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you see him there while Lisa was there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you know of anyone that called him while
11 Lisa was there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are Dr. Houghton and Dr. Johnson friends, as far
14 as you know, or acquaintances?
15 A. They worked in the same place. I don't know how
16 well acquainted they are otherwise.
17 Q. What do you mean, they worked in the same place?
18 A. Well, Dr. Houghton is a dentist, and she was a
19 medical doctor. And I think they were in the same place
20 at some point.
21 Q. You mean in the medical liaison office?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. So Dr. Houghton actually is on staff?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 REPORTER: Your answer?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
38
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the reports you wrote, who were they
3 addressed to?
4 A. CS probably.
5 Q. Which would have been Alain Kartuzinski?
6 A. He was the one, I think --
7 Q. Pardon?
8 A. He was the CS in relation to her, so I suppose
9 so. I would have addressed it to the CS, I don't know who
10 that particular person would have been there.
11 Q. Are these type watches commonplace in the
12 organization, somebody has a psychotic break, they go
13 about the same process?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Have you participated in watches before?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Have you? Tell me about that. Tell me about
18 the other watch you participated in.
19 A. It was a long time ago.
20 Q. Was that here in Clearwater?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 MR. POLLI: Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 BY AGENT STROPE:
25 Q. How long did that watch last?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
39
1 A. What do you mean by watch? My watch? Or the
2 whole watch?
3 Q. The extent of the whole watch? Just in general
4 terms, you don't need to get specific. Was it a week?
5 Ten days?
6 A. Probably a couple of weeks.
7 Q. A couple of weeks?
8 Was the outcome as grim as this one? Or was
9 that -- did that turn out okay?
10 A. That was okay.
11 Q. That one was okay?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. What was the difference between the two?
14 A. Umm, she finally got into her home country.
15 Q. Got some medical attention?
16 A. Well, whatever attention she got, I don't --
17 medical attention I don't know is necessarily the correct
18 thing, but --
19 Q. You are not sure that medical attention is a
20 great thing?
21 A. Aside from keeping the body in good shape, yes,
22 but from a medical -- mental standpoint.
23 Q. From a mental standpoint?
24 A. Uh-huh, because it is a mental condition.
25 Q. I know your feelings about psychiatry, but you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
40
1 don't have those same feelings about the medical
2 profession?
3 A. No. When you say medical, I didn't know if you
4 meant psychology.
5 Q. I understand. What could have been done
6 different on this watch that it wouldn't have turned out
7 the way it did?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know? Do you think perhaps medical
10 help would have been appropriate?
11 A. Possibly.
12 Q. Possibly?
13 A. I mean, like, you know, if she checked out
14 earlier, that is the only thing I can think of.
15 Otherwise, I don't know anything particularly wrong was
16 done.
17 Q. What if this would have been a relative of
18 yours, would you have taken that relative to the hospital
19 before she lost a lot of weight?
20 A. Before she lost a lot of weight?
21 Q. Yes, if you saw a relative in this condition,
22 losing weight, not eating, acting erratic, acting violent,
23 not eating, drinking, not sleeping, incoherent, would you
24 get that person medical help?
25 A. I would make sure she got to the doctor, but I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
41
1 wouldn't necessarily have brought her to a hospital.
2 Q. Would you take that person to a dentist?
3 A. Whoever has the medical knowledge.
4 Q. Are you familiar with Laura Arrunada?
5 A. I know of her.
6 Q. Did you see her during this time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you talked to her about this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. We have heard people testify that since Lisa's
11 watch they no longer do watches at Ft. Harrison, is that
12 correct? Do you know that to be a fact? Or you don't
13 know?
14 A. I don't know that to be a fact.
15 Q. Do you agree with that policy of watches? Do
16 you think that is a good thing?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Have you ever gone through it yourself?
19 A. Gone through what?
20 Q. A watch.
21 A. Besides this one?
22 Q. Yes -- no, no, yourself being subject of a
23 watch?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Then you are lucky, right?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
42
1 Did Lisa vomit while you were with her? Did she
2 get sick to her stomach?
3 A. Not that I remember.
4 Q. No? Okay.
5 Did she have diarrhea?
6 A. Not that I -- no.
7 Q. Did she mess her bed?
8 A. I don't -- I didn't observe that.
9 Q. You didn't notice that?
10 A. I mean, we did change her bedding, but I don't
11 -- don't specifically remember that she had done anything
12 in the bedding.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. She was--
15 Q. Why is it that the 23rd, if it was your last
16 day, was your last day, were you told -- why didn't you
17 continue after that? I mean, it went on after that for
18 some time. Why weren't you part of the rest of the
19 effort?
20 A. I was -- my help was not required after that.
21 Q. Did you say to somebody, "I just don't want
22 anything to do with it," or did they tell you you weren't
23 needed?
24 A. I just wasn't needed. If I would have been
25 needed, I probably would have been pulled in again, but I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
43
1 wasn't.
2 Q. Do you think the fact you had medical training
3 had something to do with your being there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you think the fact that most of the people
6 that were there -- do you think the fact that most of the
7 people that were there had medical training is just
8 coincidence?
9 A. I didn't think about that. I didn't realize
10 that was a fact.
11 AGENT STROPE: I have nothing else. Thank
12 you.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
15 Q. I have a couple.
16 In your church resume', is your medical
17 information in there?
18 When you went to work on staff did you do a
19 resume' for the church?
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. Is your medical background in there?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And who did you report to in 1995? Who were you
24 reporting to? Who was your supervisor or your senior?
25 A. My -- my job, on my job?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
44
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Translate this --
3 Q. Is it a name?
4 A. Leslie Woodcraft.
5 Q. Okay. And that is common spelling,
6 WOODCRAFT?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And she was your senior?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And at the time in `95 you were Director of
11 Inspections and Reports?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm a little confused. You said your first
14 contact with Lisa was about four days after she got there.
15 She got there on the 18th --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let's look at your calendar. She got there on
18 November 18th.
19 A. All right.
20 Q. Four days later, one, two, three, four, would be
21 around the 22nd of November?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Then you said that there was a week in between
24 your first contact and your second contact with Lisa?
25 A. Yeah, I mean, approximate. I am actually pretty
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
45
1 messed up on the calendar on this thing. I have pictures
2 of what happened but not specifically the time frame.
3 Q. Well, let's try to resolve that because it is
4 pretty important.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. Are we sure of the 23rd? Were you with her the
7 23rd? Or 24th?
8 A. I don't know. I have like no recollection of
9 the actual date.
10 Q. Okay. What would you say if I told you that
11 Joan Stevens said you relieved her, you came in and
12 relieved her?
13 A. Uh-huh, that is correct.
14 Q. That is correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And she was there the 23rd from ten o'clock
17 until the 24th at ten o'clock. So would you have come in
18 seven o'clock in the morning on the 24th? Would that be
19 correct?
20 A. Yeah, that is probably correct then. Yeah, I
21 think it was a Friday morning.
22 Q. Okay. Good. So it was a Friday morning. And
23 that was your second watch?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. So you were there from seven o'clock until
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
46
1 around twelve, you said?
2 A. Well, somewhere probably mid-afternoon.
3 Q. Which is what time?
4 A. Ummm, three o'clock, four o'clock.
5 Q. So you were there from seven until three
6 o'clock?
7 A. Four o'clock.
8 Q. Four o'clock? So you were there a whole day?
9 A. Well, not for me, it is half day, but --
10 Q. Okay. So the second watch -- now, the first
11 watch occurred prior to this?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. How many days prior to that?
14 A. About seven days.
15 Q. She wasn't in there seven days prior to that.
16 A. Really?
17 Q. No. Count back, go backwards, one, two, three,
18 four, five, six, seven. Was she there on the 16th?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Well, I'll save you time. She was in Orlando on
21 the 16th, so we know she wasn't there on the 16th.
22 She came to your 210 South Ft. Harrison on the
23 18th.
24 A. I got it.
25 Q. Okay?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
47
1 A. Okay.
2 AGENT STROPE: Is there a question out
3 there right now?
4 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Yes.
5 AGENT STROPE: There is?
6 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: When was her first
7 contact with Lisa. We're trying to determine that.
8 A. All right, I don't know exactly. I mean, it was
9 obviously a couple days before, at least. I thought it
10 was three days before, but --
11 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
12 Q. So let's say three days before. That would have
13 been on Sunday. Does that sound right?
14 A. I don't know. I -- I mean, my days are not much
15 different from each other, so...
16 Q. But you did know that Lisa was there?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And they told you she was there on a watch?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Did they tell you when she got there?
21 A. No.
22 Q. For argument sake, sometime between the 18th and
23 23rd you had contact with Lisa, correct?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And you said during that time she was pacing and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
48
1 very restless?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Was she being violent at that time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was she disrobing in any way, taking off her
6 clothes in any way? We are talking about the first watch.
7 A. Yeah. Umm, well, you mean in the form of
8 exposing herself? Or just --
9 Q. As opposed to the second watch. The second
10 watch you are saying she was really out there?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Being violent, being crazy, basically?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Was she acting the same way?
15 A. She was talking to herself, from what I recall.
16 But as far as undressing herself, I don't have
17 recollection. I know I saw her undress one time, but I
18 think that was in the second one.
19 Q. Was she being violent toward you or anybody else
20 on the first watch?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. If she would have tried to walk out that
23 door on that first watch, if she said, "I want to go home
24 and I'm going out the door," would you have let her go out
25 the door?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
49
1 A. That is a good question. Probably not.
2 Q. She's not being violent. She's not acting
3 crazy.
4 A. Well, she was talking to herself.
5 Q. I talk to myself all of the time. I walk down
6 the street talking to myself all of the time.
7 A. It is not the same thing.
8 MR. POLLI: Maybe you should not be allowed
9 out the door.
10 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
11 Q. So you would have not let her out the door
12 because she was talking to herself? Even if she would
13 have told you, "I'm ready to go home, I want to go home,"
14 would you have let her out the door?
15 A. If she would have said that, that would have
16 been amazing.
17 Q. If she would have said that, would you have let
18 her out the door?
19 A. Well, I would have had somebody come like
20 security, because I wouldn't just walk off with her.
21 Q. So were you ever directed not to let her out the
22 door?
23 A. Not specifically.
24 Q. But you would have not let her gone out the door
25 otherwise without consulting with somebody, correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
50
1 A. Right.
2 Q. So you would have not used your discretion, you
3 would have had to have gone to your superior?
4 A. No, security.
5 Q. Why would security make the decision?
6 A. It is a security matter.
7 Q. And they have any medical expertise, they can
8 look at her and say she is okay now?
9 A. No, but they would consult whoever they need to
10 consult as far as medical, I'm sure.
11 Q. Okay, so they would have gone to who?
12 A. Don't know. I don't know. I mean, I don't know
13 if it was Minkoff or Dr. Houghton.
14 Q. Or Janice, Dr. Johnson?
15 A. Well, that is true, too. I suppose so. I mean,
16 either one of those three.
17 Q. Well, at the time you spent with her on the
18 first watch, how much time did you spend with her? You
19 said you got there in the afternoon, and you stayed into
20 the evening?
21 A. I stayed -- I mean, I was basically in the room
22 until the next morning.
23 Q. So the first watch you slept over, that is the
24 one you slept over?
25 A. Uh-huh.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
51
1 Q. Was Dr. Johnson in there during that time?
2 A. I don't think so, I don't recall her being
3 there.
4 Q. Who was with you during the first watch?
5 A. Heather was for some time, I remember. Then --
6 Q. What is Heather's last name?
7 A. Petzold now.
8 Q. Do you know how to spell that?
9 A. PETZOLD.
10 Q. That is the Heather on both watches?
11 A. On both watches?
12 Q. Because you mentioned her on the second watch
13 also.
14 A. Oh, yes, she came in at the end. Yeah, the same
15 Heather.
16 Q. So who else besides Heather was with you on the
18 were there.
19 A. Uh-huh. So many people. I don't know if that
20 is the one Rita Boykin came in on, too.
21 Q. Okay. Anybody else?
22 A. Is her name Silvia? There is someone with dark
23 hair, I'm trying to place who it is. I don't know. There
24 are so many people going and coming, see, I don't know,
25 maybe it was Silvia DelaVega.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Susan Schnurenberg (phonetic) was also there. I
3 don't know, she might have been there before I came in, or
4 I might have just seen her.
5 Q. If you don't remember, you don't remember.
6 We're not going to belabor that fact.
7 I want you to think about let's go to the second
8 incident. What time did Dr. David -- what is the last
9 name again?
10 A. Houghton.
11 Q. -- Houghton come into the room?
12 A. About lunch time. It was about eleven or
13 twelve.
14 Q. Okay. And you remember Joan still being there?
15 A. No, I think she came later.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Shortly later.
18 Q. And he was called through security?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Did you have to physically restrain Lisa that
21 second watch?
22 A. Yes, I helped her, umm, as far as like when
23 Dr. Houghton was trying to feed her.
24 Q. You were restraining her while Dr. Houghton was
25 trying to feed her?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Anybody else restraining her at that time?
3 A. P.K. And, what is her name, Joan Stevens.
4 Q. Now, this is not the same incident where P.K.
5 came in and held her down for about forty-five minutes?
6 This is another incident?
7 A. No, I think it is the same.
8 Q. Joan said that there was an incident where she
9 hit Joan.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. You said she tried to hit you, you guys called
12 Paul Kellerhous in, and Paul Kellerhous held her down.
13 Did you help Paul Kellerhous hold her down?
14 A. I probably did.
15 Q. How long did you guys hold her down for?
16 A. Twenty minutes, half an hour maybe.
17 Q. While you are holding her down, Dr. Houghton is
18 trying to feed her?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Now, she just finished being violent, she's
21 fighting with the world, you guys are restraining her, and
22 he decides at that time he's trying to feed her?
23 A. Well, it is not -- it is giving her the aspirin
24 and antihistamine.
25 Q. Oh, medication?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 A. Uh-huh, yes.
2 Q. Okay, you said that they were trying to get her
3 into good physical condition for the introspection
4 rundown, that was the reason for her being there, correct?
5 She was isolated, going to build her up to good
6 health, get her focused inward, or outward, to do the
7 introspection rundown?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Okay? Who was in charge of her physical
10 condition? Who was going to come in that room and say
11 she's in good physical condition now, let's go ahead and
12 start the introspection rundown?
13 A. I don't know. It would have been coordinated
14 with security who that was. It would be obviously a
15 medical person.
16 Q. Then that person would have to monitor her
17 physical condition, correct?
18 A. I would assume so.
19 Q. Okay. We know, we all know, that her physical
20 condition at one point started to drastically deteriorate.
21 A. Okay. I don't know that.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go by what you are saying, by what
23 the church is saying, that at twelve o'clock -- eight
24 o'clock in the morning she was fine, and at eight o'clock
25 at night she was really, really sick so they took her to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
55
1 the hospital, would you agree with that?
2 MR. POLLI: Go back and tell her when you
3 are telling her that happened.
4 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
5 Q. December 5th.
6 MR. POLLI: She wasn't involved in that,
7 so...
8 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
9 Q. Well, strike that. Let's go back to somebody
10 was in charge of her physical condition, correct? Do you
11 know who that was?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Would it have been one of the doctors?
14 A. I would assume so. I mean, I don't know.
15 Q. Was anybody that was giving care to Lisa
16 responsible to inform the doctor of Lisa's physical
17 condition?
18 A. No, I don't know. I wasn't.
19 Q. You have been involved in other watches?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Okay. And when you are involved in the other
22 watches, was somebody responsible to let the doctor know
23 or the medical person know this person was physically fit
24 to go with the test or with the procedure?
25 A. I -- yes, I mean, either security or the CS.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
56
1 Q. So, therefore, her physical condition would have
2 to be monitored?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. Do you think somebody failed in that
5 particular aspect to monitor her physical condition?
6 A. I don't know. I mean, I actually don't know
7 exactly what happened toward the end when her health
8 failed.
9 Q. What is your understanding of when her health
10 failed?
11 A. From what I gather, it was the last day before
12 she ended up going into the hospital.
13 Q. Okay. Be a little bit more specific. What else
14 do you know about that period, December 5th? We are
15 talking about December 5th now. What else do you know
16 about that period, how did her health fail or anything you
17 have?
18 A. I actually don't know because I -- I don't have
19 the specifics on this.
20 Q. Okay. But you do agree -- you would agree with
21 me if her health was starting to fail, somebody should
22 have gotten a doctor to her?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And at an appropriate time?
25 A. Uh-huh.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
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1 MR. POLLI: Yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
4 Q. Okay. And it appears that that was not the
5 case?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Okay. One more question. Who was the other
8 person that you were involved with? You said you were in
9 a watch. Who was that person?
10 A. I don't remember her name. This is ten years
11 ago, or more than ten years ago.
12 Q. What country did she go back to?
13 A. South Africa.
14 Q. But you don't remember her name?
15 A. No.
16 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: No more questions.
17 AGENT STROPE: I just have one quick thing.
18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION
19 BY AGENT STROPE:
20 Q. You say Dr. Houghton gave her antihistamine?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. What form was that antihistamine?
23 MR. McGARRY: In the yogurt.
24 BY AGENT STROPE:
25 Q. But what form was the antihistamine? Was it in
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58
1 cough syrup? Was it in a tablet?
2 A. I think it was tablet. I know for sure the
3 aspirin was in tablet and he was crushing it to make it
4 smaller.
5 Q. Crushing the aspirin to make it more palatable?
6 A. No, to make it so it would go into the yogurt so
7 it would be easy to eat.
8 Q. The antihistamine wasn't a liquid?
9 A. Not that I recall.
10 Q. Did he give her a shot?
11 A. No. I didn't see any shot anyhow.
12 Q. Could he have given her a shot?
13 A. I -- not when I was there.
14 Q. Not when you were there?
15 A. No.
16 AGENT STROPE: Okay, I don't have anything.
17 _____________________________________________
18 WHEREUPON, THE STATEMENT WAS CONCLUDED
19 ___________________________________________
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
59
1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2 STATE OF FLORIDA )
3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4 I, the undersigned authority, certify that
BARBRO WENNBERG personally appeared before me and was duly
5 sworn.
6 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10th day
of April, 1997.
7
8
(signature)
9 LYNNE J. IDE, RPR, RMR
Notary Public - State of Florida.
10
11 LYNNE J.IDE
COMMISSION # CC 487604
EXPIRES JUN 14, 1999
12 ATLANTIC BONDING CO, INC.
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
13
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
15
I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Professional
16 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the statement of BARBRO WENNBERG;
17 and that the transcript is a true and complete record of
my stenographic notes.
18
I further certify that I am not a relative,
19 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
20 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
21
DATED this 10th day of April, 1997.
22
23 (signature)
LYNNE J. IDE,
24 RPR, RMR.
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320