TAKEN BY: Office of State Attorney,

Bernie McCabe

April 3, 1997 1:45 p.m.

BEFORE: Sandra A. Ambush, CSR, RMR,

Notary Public

State of Florida at large.

PLACE: Office of State Attorney

B-200 Criminal Justice Center

Clearwater, FL


Assistant State Attorney


Barnett Bank Plaza

101 East Kennedy Blvd. #3130

Tampa, FL 33602

Attorney for Mr. Greenwood


Florida Dept of Law Enforcement


Clearwater Police Department




MR. MCGARRY: You want to place your little

thing on the record?

MR. POLLI: Yes. Thank you. For the

record, my name is Bob Polli. I represent Laura Arrunada,

and we are appearing -- she's appearing today pursuant to

a state attorney investigative subpoena that she received

through my office.

I have explained to Miss Arrunada that with

the subpoena comes the provisions and the protections that

are in Florida Statute 6 -- 914.04. These protections

include immunity for her testimony here. She is therefore

testifying with those protections. We spent some time,

I've discussed with her, I've explained it to her and

spent some time with her about the concept of immunity and

what the protections are. I believe she understands those

protections, and she's here's today to testify



the witness herein, being first duly sworn was examined

and testified as follows:



Q. Okay. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm a

prosecutor. I'm going to ask you some questions about

your involvement with Lisa McPherson during her stay at

the Church cabana area during the period of November of

'95 and a little bit of December of '95.

But before I do, I'd like to get some general

background information about you. Laura, what is your

birth date?

A. 4 of November, `58.

Q. `58?

A. 1958.

Q. And where do you reside right now? You're --

A. In Mexico City.

Q. In Mexico City. Is that where you're from


A. No. Ah, well, yes, I was born there, but I was

living in a state near to the Mexico City, the name is


Q. Okay. Is -- how do you pronounce your last


A. A-r-r-

Q. I know how to spell it --

A. Arrunada.

Q. Is that your given name, or is that a married

name? Is that the name you were born with?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Laura, do you have -- do you have some

medical training?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. You do? What training do you have?

A. I did five years in the school and then two

years like the internship, and then social service. Yeah.

So totally it was 7 years.

Q. 7 years?

A. Yeah.

Q. Was that -- was that college, or just medical

training, 7 years?

A. Color?

MR. POLLI: College. School.


Q. University? School, university?

A. It's five years university, and then you go and

do practice and in the hospital full time, and then is one

year more giving service.

Q. Okay. Where was this university?

A. Morelia in Michoacan.

MR. POLLI: Sounds like Michigan. Like

University of Michigan. But it's not, it's Michacon,

which is a state next to Mexico City. M-i-c-h-o-a-c-a-n.


THE WITNESS: Yeah, Michoacan.


Q. Where was your two year residency? Was that --

A. One was there, also, and the other one was in

Tabasco, another state.

Q. All right. Now, you were on your way to be a

doctor? Or are you a doctor? Are you a doctor?

A. I didn't complete the -- all the cycle, you

know, I didn't did the last test. How you say, "The


Q. The board exam?

A. Yeah, I didn't.

Q. The Mexico Board exam?

A. Yeah.

Q. You did not do that?

A. No.

Q. But you completed all of the courses and you


A. Yeah.

Q. From medical school?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. When was this? When did you complete

that program?

A. 1985.

Q. Okay. When did you become involved with the


A. 1994.

Q. All right. And how did you become involved with

the Church?

A. Because I knew Scientologists and I decide to

join this year.

Q. Was that in Mexico City?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And that's when you joined, in `94?

A. Yeah. I knew Scientology before, but when I

join, this year was in 1994.

Q. And did you join the Church as a staff member

or --

A. Yeah.

Q. As a, just as a -- as a staff member?

A. Yeah.

Q. And that's in Mexico City?

A. Well, that was before, in Michoacan.

Q. Okay.

A. And then I came here in October 1994. I came

here to Florida.

Q. And why was that? Why did you come to Florida,

to Clearwater? Clearwater?

A. Yeah. Why?

Q. Why did you come here?

A. Just because I was told to come here.

Q. Oh, by the Church?

A. Yeah.

Q. They needed you here?

A. Yeah.

Q. And when you were in Mexico City working for the

Church what did you do?

A. Before or after?

Q. In -- when you joined in Mexico, before you came

to Clearwater.

A. No. Before I was just helping in Michoacan,

helping to bring people to know, to do seminars.

Q. Okay. When you came here in October of `94 to

Clearwater --

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you come here as a staff member?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And what did you do for the Church as a

staff member?

A. All I did the basical (sic) training.

Q. Basic what?

A. Basic training. You know, that we do some


Q. Mm-hmm?

A. And then after that I started to work in the MLO



A. Medical Liaison Office.

Q. Okay. When did you start with the MLO Office?

Do you remember that?

A. 22 November, 1994.

Q. `94?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. In November of `94 who was in charge of

the MLO Office at that time?

A. Judy Colesberry Webber.

Q. There's another name I haven't heard in a while.

MR. POLLI: What's the last name?

MR. MCGARRY: Webber.


Q. So she was your -- do you call her your senior

or supervisor?

A. Senior.

Q. Senior? What duties did you do in the MLO

Office? What would you -- what would be your typical day

back, now, back in the very beginning in November of `94?

A. Okay. So file, and give assist.

Q. Assist?

A. Yeah.

Q. Who'd you assist? Judy?

A. Yeah. Well, I assist Judy. Judy was the person

who was telling me what to do.

Q. Mm-hmm?

A. But we have in Scientology some kind of assist

that we give to the people who is sick. So I was training

to do that.

Q. Okay.

A. That was in the beginning. And also, I was

helping her to keep clean the space where the people with

flu is isolated.




Q. Oh, okay. I got you, flu.

A. Is isolated.

Q. Did your duties in the MLO Office change from

`94 to '95?

A. Yes.

Q. What responsibilities did you grow to or come to


A. I was helping more the manager. They change the

manager in the office.

Q. Manager?

A. Yeah.

Q. And that would have been Susan?

A. Yeah.

Q. Schnurrenberger?

A. Susan Schnurrenburger. So I was helping also to

do some admin. cycle, you know like make papers, do

report, things like that. Looking the people when is come

in, send in the people to the Public MLO, or Staff MLO.

Q. Okay.

A. Like the receptionist.

Q. Oh, I got you. So was Susan Schnurrenberger,

did she take over for Judy Colesberry Webber?

A. Yeah.

Q. She did? Did you know Lisa McPherson?

A. I knew her.

Q. Did you know her prior to her illness?

A. No.

Q. You did not?

A. No.

Q. You've never seen her before?

A. No.

Q. Before that? Oh, okay. When did you first

learn that Lisa was staying in the cabana, that your help

was needed? Do you remember when that was?

A. When it was? Yeah. It was, um, it was a Friday

at night.

Q. We have some calendars, we got a calendar here.

We're not trying to trick you, because I know it's a long

time ago. And that's of 1995 there. And Thanksgiving is

right there where your finger is.


A. 24. Friday, 24.

Q. Okay. How did you get into this? Who

approached you and who asked you, or who requested you to

assist in this situation?

A. I was called by Lacy Spencer. And she told me

that the senior C.S. is, case supervisor, at that time, he

request my presence in his office.

Q. Okay. And did you go see him?

A. Yeah.

Q. Was there anybody else there when you arrived?

A. Yeah.

Q. Who?

A. It was Kenia Smythe, Patrizia Strecener, Valerie

Demons, Silvia De la Vega, Gabby Sanchez, Lacy.

Q. Okay.

A. That's all, yeah.

Q. All right. And you all -- did he have a meeting

with you at that time?

A. Yeah.

Q. What was the meeting about?

A. About that he was needing our help to take care

of Lisa McPherson.

Q. Did he tell you what was wrong with her?

A. Yeah.

Q. What was that? What did he say?

A. Well, he said that she was Type Three.

Q. Which is psychotic break?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did he tell you all about the incident that

occurred prior to her going to the church hotel, with the

traffic? You heard about that, the traffic thing, the

accident she had?

A. No.

Q. You don't know about that?

A. I know now, but I didn't know, no.

Q. He didn't bring that up?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did he -- what further conversations did

he have with you in reference to your participation in


A. Say --

Q. What did he tell you?

A. What did he tell me? Yeah, okay. So that we

was going to do watch. We use that word.

Q. Mm-hmm?

A. And just to make sure that she was clean, eating

sleeping, or make sure that she was not hurting herself,

because she was doing some -- what you call it? Wild

thing, things, so --

Q. Mm-hmm?

A. And don't speak with her because that could

contribute to make more confused, the mind. And don't use

like strong light, you know, just keep her safe.

Q. Okay. Did Mr. Kartuzinski, did he put together

a schedule for girls to keep? Do you know if he did that?

A. I don't know if he did. I think that the one

who did the schedule was Gabby Sanchez.

Q. Gabby, yeah?

A. And then they put like two girls in each.

Q. Two girls in each schedule?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you get scheduled in like that, or was

your -- was your participation different than those other

girls? Were you the same as they in the watch?

A. The same.

Q. The same?

A. Yeah.

Q. And when did your first watch occur? And you

can look, use that.

A. Yeah, it was Saturday morning.

Q. Okay. That would be the 25th of November of --

A. 25.

Q. Of November of 1995. And was Saturday, the 25th

the first time you saw Lisa?

A. The first time, no. I saw her before a little


Q. Okay. When was that?

A. It was, um, nineteen, I think.

Q. Okay. And what was that all about? That was

before you met with Kartuzinski?

A. Yeah, that was before.

Q. And what was that meeting about?

A. I just went to bring Emma something to the room.

Q. Okay. Do you know what that something was?

A. I think that it was some clothes. Clothes.

Q. Clothes?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you see Lisa on that day, the 19th?

A. Yeah, I saw her sleeping in the -- on the, her


Q. Okay. You didn't speak to her?

A. No.

Q. Okay. We're going to move back to the 25th.

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. What time did you start that watch?

A. It was around nine a.m.

Q. In the morning?

A. In the morning.

Q. And who was assigned to the watch with you?

A. Silvia De La Vega.

Q. Silvia?

A. Yeah.

Q. And, excuse me, the -- can you describe Lisa

that first time you saw her? How she looked and what she

was doing?

A. Well, she was with the a lot of physical motion

and she went to make piss (sic) how you say, she went to

the bathroom, and she drink her pee, and then --

Q. She drank, did you guys follow that? What was

it? I missed it.

THE ANDREWS: She urinated then drank it.


Q. She urinated then drank it?

A. Yeah.

Q. Wow.

A. Then she flushed the toilet. Then she went to

take a shower with her clothes and shoes, and then she

started to play with the -- how say the --

MR. POLLI: Spicots.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, exactly. So like she

was singing and dancing, and doing things, and stand up

and down. So then we complete the shower. We took off

her clothes, and we helped her to take a shower. And then

we dry her and we put her clothes. And then we went to

the room and we give her food, but she was too much in

motion, you know, always talking, and yelling or louding

(sic) or singing and dancing and --


Q. Okay. And that is on the 25th?

A. Yeah.

Q. And on the 25th did you feel like she was, other

than being -- having a psychotic -- other than being Type

Three, did you feel like on the 25th that she had a

physical problem wrong with her? I mean, something wrong

with her from here down? (Indicating)

A. (Shakes head.) No.

Q. No? Okay. Was she was she still eating regular

food or was she --

A. Regular food.

Q. Regular food at that time?

A. Yeah.

Q. And that's potatoes, and some broccoli. What

else did she have? Chicken maybe?

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. So how long did that shift last?

You started at nine o'clock in the morning and you went

until how long?

A. Until five.

Q. Until five?

A. Yeah.

Q. And Silvia stayed on?

A. Yeah.

Q. When you left at five o'clock was Lisa doing the

same thing, type of thing or was she sleeping, or do you


A. Same.

Q. Same type of thing?

A. Same thing.

Q. When was the next time that you saw Lisa?

A. Next day, 26.

Q. All right. And what time was that did you


A. It was at 8:00 a.m.

Q. 8:00 in the morning?

A. Yeah.

Q. And how did she look then?

A. Same.

Q. Okay. Same type of behavior?

A. Yeah.

Q. And did she still have some strength? Was she

still moving on her own? Was she still talking, walking

and talking?

A. Yeah, a lot.

Q. A lot?

A. Yeah.

Q. How about her food intake? Was she still eating

and drinking?

A. Yeah. Yeah, she was like eating, and then

putting out the food, then eating with her hands, and

always doing something not normal, you know. If you're

going to eat, well you eat, and that's it.

Q. Right. Okay. Did you ever see her -- do you

know what vomit means? Throw up?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did she do that?

A. No.

Q. Just spit food out? She didn't regurgitate it

from the stomach?

A. No.

Q. During, so far, the contact that you had with

Lisa, did she ever express any desire to leave the room?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever try to leave the room?

A. Yeah, she did.

Q. And when was that?

A. I think it was not in these two days, it was

around next Saturday.

Q. Okay. And what did she do?

A. Well, she was yelling at some -- some guys in

her mind, and she was trying to grab them. She was trying

to go through the window or, you know, to hit them or to

go, and -- I don't know. Like she was with something,

like when you're watching that picture, a movie, and

you're talking with the guys in the movie and trying to do

something with that guy.

Q. Well, can you describe this window? Could she

have gotten out of the window if you wouldn't have stopped

her? Was the window open or was there a screen or --

A. No, no. It was a -- is like this is the room,

it was the door, and that was a window, but was a --

MR. POLLI: Curtain?

THE WITNESS: Curtina, yeah. Like she was

in front, she was talking with somebody in the window.

And then she went to try to do something, and so she went

then -- and then she took the door and she was trying to

go outside and kill these guys. So I stopped her.


Q. Okay. All right. That's -- we'll back up to

back to where we were on the 26th this still. Is there is

there any time during these two days, on the 25th and the

26th, that Janice Johnson stopped by to visit and look at


A. I don't know. She did not when I was there.

Q. Okay. You know Janice Johnson, don't you?

A. I do I know Janice, yeah.

Q. How would you describe her? Was she in the MLO

at the time with you, Janice?

A. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Q. What was her position at that time?

A. Her position?

Q. Was it the same as yours or different?

A. No, she was a Staff MLO.

Q. Staff?

A. Staff MLO.

Q. Okay. I'm not sure I understand what you were.

Weren't you staff MLO?

A. No. I was the assistant manager.

Q. Oh, okay. Okay. I gotcha. It's all kind of

new here for me. So you didn't see Janice the 25th or the


A. In Lisa room, not. In the MLO Office, yes.

Q. Oh, okay. Did you speak with Janice at that

time? I know you don't talk in front of Lisa, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. But did you speak with Janice in the MLO

Office about what was going on with Lisa?

A. Yeah.

Q. You did?

A. Yeah.