1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97-01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume VI 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR January 20 & 21, 2000 25 800 1 APPEARANCES 2 Counsel for Plaintiff: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 Dandar & Dandar, P.A. Attorneys at Law 4 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 6 Service Organization: MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 7 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP Attorneys at Law 8 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 10 Attorney at Law 740 Broadway, 5th Floor 11 New York, New York 10003 12 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS, JR. 13 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 14 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 15 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 16 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 17 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 18 Tampa, Florida 33602 19 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: MR. ROBERT P. POLLI 20 Robert P. Polli, P.A. Attorney at Law 21 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: 23 Mr. Michael Garko Mr. Jesse Prince 24 Mr. Michael Rinder Ms. Lara Cartwright 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (via the Internet) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 801 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS PAGE 3 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 4 Service Organization: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG......... 804 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TITUS............. 817 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HANES............. 855 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. POLLI............. 867 10 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 880 11 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 881 12 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE.............. 882 13 14 EXHIBITS 15 Defendant's Exhibit B.......................... 807 16 Defendant's Exhibit C.......................... 814 17 Defendant's Composite Exhibit D................ 878 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 802 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97-01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume VI 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 14 deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, upon oral 15 examination in the above-styled cause, at the 16 instance of the Defendant Church of Scientology 17 Flag Service Organization, for the purposes of 18 discovery or use at trial or both, pursuant to 19 Florida Rules of Civil Procedure, proceedings 20 therefor were held before Susan D. Wasilewski, 21 Registered Professional Reporter, Certified 22 Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the 23 State of Florida at large, at 220 East Madison 24 Street, 12th Floor, Tampa, Florida, on January 21, 25 2000, at 3:50 p.m. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 803 1 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by Rick 2 Spector. 3 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 4 had and taken: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 6 by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, having been previously duly sworn, 8 continued to testify as follows: 9 MR. WEINBERG: We had two subpoenas, Ken, 10 one to Stacy and one to Vaughn, returnable 11 this morning. Are there any documents that 12 you have to give us? 13 MR. DANDAR: No. I checked with Stacy 14 Brooks. There are no documents at all in 15 response to your subpoena. 16 MR. WEINBERG: So she doesn't have access 17 to this ledger? 18 MR. DANDAR: No. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know where the 20 ledger is? 21 MR. DANDAR: It's whoever is running that 22 foundation in Seattle. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Is there some name of 24 somebody that's running the foundation in 25 Seattle? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 804 1 MR. DANDAR: I don't know that. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Would you find that out 3 for us? 4 MR. DANDAR: I can find that out, sure. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q. I have a few more questions and then 8 Mr. Titus and Mr. Hanes and Mr. Polli are going to 9 ask you some questions. What is an apostate? 10 A. An apostate is usually referred to a 11 person who has left a religion and may or may not 12 be critical but is in disagreement. 13 Q. Another one -- it certainly would include 14 somebody that had renounced their religion, is that 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, you like scholarly works, I mean, 18 right, you read and write scholarly works? 19 A. I have in the past but I -- 20 Q. And you like to take a scholarly approach 21 to issues, correct? 22 A. Sometimes. 23 Q. Now, are you aware that scholars have 24 studied the phenomenon of people who leave 25 religion, i.e. apostates, and tell bad stories SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 805 1 about them, about those religions, are you aware 2 that scholars have written about that? 3 A. I have read some of the ones that were 4 hired by Scientology. 5 Q. Oh, like who? 6 A. I don't remember their names but like 7 G. Gordon Melton. 8 Q. Anybody else? 9 A. That's the only name I immediately 10 remember. 11 Q. Well, you're aware that apostasy goes back 12 in history to the Christian religion, correct, 13 you're aware of that, aren't you? 14 A. I'm not aware of that part of it as far as 15 the history of it but I won't question it. 16 Q. And that Christians had to renounce their 17 religion or be killed, I mean we're talking 18 centuries ago? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Okay? And that in order to save their 21 lives, apostates would tell incredible tales about 22 the religion that they were renouncing, correct? 23 A. Maybe. 24 Q. Now, you are an apostate, are you not, 25 from Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 806 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Well, you renounce Scientology, correct? 3 A. There is -- 4 Q. Yes or no? 5 A. Well, there is parts that I would agree 6 with and there is parts that I would disagree with. 7 I would consider myself more a reformed 8 Scientologist. 9 Q. Well, you were a member of staff of 10 Scientology for 21 years, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you left in 1989, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And since you left in 1989, you have gone 15 around the country testifying in cases in which you 16 have renounced the religion, correct? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Now, you have made a profit out of being 19 an apostate, haven't you? 20 A. No. 21 Q. It's been your -- your only source of 22 income since 1993 has been to testify in cases 23 involving Scientology or write articles with regard 24 to Scientology, correct? 25 A. Yes. I would just say primary source. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 807 1 Q. Now, you did a declaration that was filed 2 in the Wollersheim case in California, right? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And we'll mark this as an exhibit, B. 7 (Defendant's Exhibit B was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. Can you identify this as a declaration 10 which -- just look at the end of it. 11 MR. DANDAR: Are you representing that it 12 was filed? 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm representing that -- 14 well, I'm asking him. Yeah, I'm representing 15 it was filed, that's why I got a copy of it. 16 It was filed two days ago in California. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q. Is that your declaration? 20 A. There is no date filed stamp on it. 21 Q. Is that your declaration? 22 A. Yes. I'd like to ask my counsel a 23 question. 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 A. Okay. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 808 1 Q. And you signed this -- executed this on 2 December 7th, 1999, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When I took your deposition it was 5 December 21st and 22nd of 1999, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is this what you were working on at the 8 Red Roof Inn with Jesse Prince that you asserted an 9 objection to? 10 A. I was working on the material but the -- 11 it was actually compiled later because we were at 12 the Red Roof earlier than that. 13 Q. But -- earlier than what? 14 A. Than the date of that signing. 15 Q. Well, I understand that, but this is what 16 -- you were working toward this, this affidavit, 17 when you were at the Red Roof Inn with Jesse 18 Prince, right? 19 A. It was a possibility. 20 Q. Now, but you had already signed this 21 affidavit when I took your deposition on the 21st 22 and 22nd? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And had you already sent it to 25 Mr. Leipold? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 809 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Had you given a copy to Mr. Dandar? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Had you told Mr. Dandar that you had 5 executed an affidavit? 6 MR. DANDAR: Whoa. I'm representing him 7 so that he's not going to talk about what he 8 told me, so I'm objecting, privilege. Don't 9 ask him what he talked to me about. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I can ask him what I want 11 to. If you want to object to it and instruct 12 him not to answer it, fine. 13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 14 MR. WEINBERG: You're instructing him not 15 to answer? 16 MR. DANDAR: Right. That's privileged. 17 You know that. 18 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't think you can 19 represent everybody in the world. 20 MR. DANDAR: Well, I tell you what. I'm 21 going to withdraw that. You can ask him if he 22 talked to me about that. 23 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Dandar about this 24 before your deposition? 25 A. I told him afterwards. I don't remember SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 810 1 if it was before or even when I saw him here, but I 2 told him I had been doing some work regarding the 3 Sea Organization. 4 Q. And this affidavit is all about the Sea 5 Organization, right? 6 A. Pretty much, yes. 7 Q. And that's one of the things that you're 8 being called to testify about in this case as an 9 expert, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is there a particular reason why you 12 refused to discuss this and this project when I 13 asked you questions about it on December 21st and 14 December 22nd? 15 A. As I stated at that time, I had not been 16 named in that case and I wasn't required to cite 17 that I had been so retained. And also, as I 18 testified at that time, the material that I was 19 working with with the attorney was up to him 20 whether or not he wanted to use it. I didn't know 21 whether or not he would file it. I did not know at 22 the time. It was just recently filed. You can see 23 quite a bit of time between when I sent it and when 24 he decided to file it. So my refusal at the time 25 was I wasn't required to disclose an attorney that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 811 1 I had not been named in a case that I had not been 2 named. 3 Q. No, except that it had to do with the very 4 thing that apparently, although we weren't told 5 this until yesterday, that you were being called to 6 testify about in this case. 7 A. That was a later development. 8 Q. Were you trying to hide something? 9 A. No. I discussed Sea Organization with 10 Mr. Dandar quite a bit earlier, but later, when I 11 spoke with him here in Tampa and he found out what 12 could actually be compiled in this, then it became 13 a topic after the fact. 14 Q. When was quite a bit earlier? 15 A. I testified before, a few weeks ago on 16 this, that I had raised the subject of Sea 17 Organization years before. 18 Q. I know, but when with Mr. Dandar, 1997, is 19 that what you're talking about? 20 A. Possibly, yes, that far ago, yes. 21 Q. Not possibly. I mean there was no real 22 contact with Mr. Dandar after 1997 until this, 23 literally, this late summer, early fall of 1999, 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. I'm just saying that it was brought SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 812 1 up as a subject early in our relationship on this 2 case in my position working with him, but it fell 3 out as a subject and wasn't raised again until 4 after I did this declaration and after I discussed 5 it with him, that there was a great deal of 6 material that could be used to show the role of the 7 Sea Organization. 8 Q. You're saying after I did this 9 declaration. You're talking about the declaration 10 of December 7th, 1999? 11 A. Yes. Until that point I never discussed 12 that declaration with Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar did 13 not know I was compiling it, he did not have the 14 information. 15 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that in your 16 mind Scientology isn't a valid religion. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you also testified that you and 19 Mr. Prince and your ex-wife, Stacy, were one of a 20 small group of experts with regard to Scientology, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is Stacy a Scientologist? 24 A. I don't know what her -- I wouldn't 25 consider an active Scientologist. You would have SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 813 1 to ask her what her belief system is. 2 Q. I'm asking you. 3 A. I don't think so but you'd have to ask 4 her. 5 Q. Is she an apostate? 6 A. You'd have to ask her. 7 Q. Well, I'm asking you. 8 A. Well, as I responded, I consider myself a 9 reformed Scientologist. 10 Q. Well, Mr. Dandar is your attorney, is that 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, are you aware that Mr. Dandar has 14 said that Stacy, your ex-wife, is an authorized 15 minister of Scientology? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What do you have to say about that? 18 A. Nothing. 19 Q. Is she an authorized minister of 20 Scientology? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. I'll mark as Exhibit C, let me show you, a 23 December 7, 1999 letter, which happened to be the 24 day you executed your affidavit on the Sea Org, 25 from Mr. Dandar to me. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 814 1 (Defendant's Exhibit C was marked for 2 identification.) 3 MR. DANDAR: Let me see it, please. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Here, I'll give you a 5 copy. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q. Now, let me read this to you: Dear Sandy 8 -- this is from Ken Dandar -- in response to your 9 letter of November 29th, 1999, and the attaching 10 pictures of Stacy Brooks demonstrating the use of 11 e-meter to Bob Minton, as you should be aware, 12 Stacey Brooks is an authorized minister of the 13 Church of Scientology. If you have any information 14 to the contrary, I'd appreciate your faxing same to 15 me at your earlier convenience. 16 So I'm asking you, I mean you were with 17 her certainly far more than anyone else, with I 18 guess the possible exception recently of 19 Mr. Minton. Are you aware that Ms. Stacy Brooks is 20 an authorized minister of the Church of 21 Scientology? 22 A. She may have been. It was never a subject 23 that we discussed even when we were -- 24 Q. This doesn't say was. This says is. 25 A. Well, I'm just saying she would have been SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 815 1 accredited while in the Church of Scientology and I 2 was referring to when we were both staff members. 3 It was never mentioned to me and I never had any 4 reason to ask. 5 Q. What do you still agree with in 6 Scientology? 7 A. There is certain points of the metaphysics 8 that I'm intrigued with, basically, some of the 9 ontology. 10 Q. Excuse me? 11 A. Some of the ontology. 12 Q. By that you mean? 13 A. Ontology is the study of existence. 14 Q. And that Scientologists believe in what? 15 A. Well, as I said yesterday, solipsism is 16 the idea that reality stems out from the individual 17 rather than there being an external reality, and 18 that creates a different ontological perspective as 19 to the nature of existence, and it's an intriguing 20 prospect, and that's actually what had first 21 intrigued me when I was first reading Hubbard, 22 because it resolved some problems. It's got its 23 own serious problems that you end up with but I'm 24 still intrigued with that, that notion. He's not 25 the first to do it but I -- it was -- he prompted SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 816 1 me -- 2 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 3 A. He prompted me in that direction through 4 the book 8-80-08. 5 Q. You mean the existence of man and who man 6 is? 7 A. No. 8 Q. As one relates to a higher being? 9 A. No. Ontology is just -- you know, in a 10 way, Stephen Hawking is a physicist when he's 11 dealing with the origin of the universe. You're 12 basically dealing with ontology there as well as 13 cosmology, cosmology being the study of the origin 14 of the cosmos. But ontology has to do with the 15 study of what is existence, such as Jean-Paul 16 Sartre, being and nothingness, you know, 17 existentialism. That is pure ontology. That is 18 just a philosophy that is based purely on ontology 19 as opposed to some other system. 20 Q. You believe that Scientologists believe 21 that they are seeking to save the world, correct? 22 A. Most of them. It is a principle. I think 23 it's -- it would be very hard -- I'd be very hard 24 pressed to say what percentage. I wouldn't contest 25 there is a sizable percentage but a lot of them SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 817 1 just live their ordinary lives like most of them. 2 They are not trying to save the world, they are 3 interested in their own day-to-day existence. 4 Q. But you've written that. In fact, in this 5 one article in Quill that you were talking about 6 that you had written, you said, let me read it to 7 you: Before talking with any Scientology PR or 8 executive, a journalist must know that he or she 9 will be talking to a fanatic, a person seeking to 10 save the world. This is exactly what 11 Scientologists believe they are doing. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. You wrote that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You stand behind that? 16 A. Yes. I said a PR or an executive are the 17 Scientologists who are fanatics trying to save the 18 world, which is different than say a public person. 19 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Go. 20 THE WITNESS: A different voice and face. 21 MR. TITUS: That's right. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. TITUS: 24 Q. Before I start, I just want to state for 25 the record that I object to this emergency nature SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 818 1 of this deposition and I want to make it clear that 2 we're not waiving any rights and we reserve all 3 rights to continue with this discovery deposition 4 at some point in the future, hopefully in the very 5 near future, and that we object to the process of 6 going forward with the trial testimony before we've 7 had an opportunity to conclude the discovery 8 deposition and before we've had an opportunity to 9 review all the materials that have been provided to 10 us in connection with discovery, which, Mr. Young, 11 has nothing to do with what I'm going to do with 12 you now. I just have a few questions for you. We 13 don't have a lot of time and I want to kind of get 14 right to the point. 15 A. It's a little difficult to hear you but I 16 can hear you. If I repeat, you know -- I may have 17 to, but go ahead. It's okay right now. 18 Q. That's fine. Thank you. I'll try and 19 speak up. I've got a low voice. 20 A. So do I. 21 Q. You never knew Lisa McPherson, did you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You never met her, is that correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And I represent Alain Kartuzinski. You SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 819 1 don't know Alain Kartuzinski, do you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. You've never met him, have you, sir? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You've never had any conversation with 6 Alain Kartuzinski regarding the facts of this case, 7 have you, sir? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know what Alain Kartuzinski does or 10 what his job or hat is at Flag today? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know what his job was at Flag in 13 1995? 14 A. CS. 15 Q. Do you know what -- particularly what his 16 job was during November and December of 1995? 17 A. Well, I know the best thing that I recall 18 from it at the time was his relationship with Lisa 19 McPherson and her connection to him. 20 Q. Okay. Now, how do you know he was a CS in 21 1995, someone told you? 22 A. No. I saw this in the documents that were 23 provided to me that were part of the discovery 24 documents. 25 Q. Okay. What documents were those? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 820 1 A. Documents that Mr. Dandar provided that 2 had been obtained under discovery which included a 3 lot of reports and the logs, which I guess we 4 understand what we're talking about with that, the 5 final logs, but just to let you know in 6 anticipation, no preclear folder information. 7 Q. Do you know what Alain Kartuzinski's rank 8 is in the Sea Org today? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know what his rank was in the Sea 11 Org in 1995? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any percipient knowledge about 14 what Alain Kartuzinski was doing at the Sea Org, or 15 at Flag rather, in 1995, in November or December? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you have any other information about 18 what Alain Kartuzinski was doing at Flag in 19 November or December of 1995? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Can you -- it is not possible, is it, sir, 22 for Alain Kartuzinski, in the military model which 23 you described yesterday, with a low rank in the Sea 24 Org, to report directly to the captain of the Sea 25 Org, isn't that true? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 821 1 A. No, it's very possible. Staff members 2 have the authority and responsibility to report 3 from their position -- they can report to anywhere. 4 In fact, the material even says you can report all 5 the way to RTC something that pertains to your 6 area. In fact, you can report something that 7 doesn't even pertain to your area. You see 8 something somewhere else that you consider to be 9 serious, you can write your own report. It's 10 called the knowledge report, and you can provide it 11 to anyone. You can provide it to your ethics 12 files, you can provide it to CO, you can provide it 13 to COB, you can provide it to anyone. So that's 14 pretty much up to the individual and the situation. 15 Q. Are you -- do you have any percipient 16 knowledge of any specific instance when Alain 17 Kartuzinski reported directly a flap to David 18 Miscavige? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You've been hired to give some opinions 21 which we talked about yesterday. I'm not clear 22 specifically on what those opinions are because we 23 had a lot of discussion, but tell me what first 24 opinion you are going to give this morning when you 25 are asked by Mr. Dandar to give your opinion, what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 822 1 is the issue and what's your opinion? 2 A. I guess that depends upon which question 3 he asks first, since there is several. 4 Q. Okay. Well, tell me the several that 5 you're going to opine on and we'll take them one at 6 a time? 7 A. Well, one of the areas is the command 8 lines, how they are used for the transmission of 9 orders and compliances and information, and that's 10 one subject. Do you want to take that up right 11 there or -- 12 Q. Yeah. What documents did you review and 13 what other materials did you review to give that 14 opinion? 15 A. Well, first of all, just historically, I'm 16 familiar with documents, and having used them, 17 policies, various policies and directives just in 18 my own personal history, and then there is other 19 documents, such as the command channels booklet, 20 which was put out, oh, 1988, 1989. 21 Q. When is the last time you've seen that 22 booklet? 23 A. This morning. 24 Q. What year was that published? 25 A. '88 or '89, I can't remember which. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 823 1 Q. Do you know if there have been any changes 2 to that booklet in the intervening 10 or 12 years? 3 A. No, I don't believe it has. 4 Q. I'm sorry? 5 A. I don't believe it has. 6 Q. You don't believe it has. Do you know if 7 any changes have been made in that booklet, if it 8 has been amended in any way since 1988 or '89? 9 A. No. 10 Q. What other sources of information did you 11 have in gathering information to formulate your 12 opinion with respect to command lines? 13 A. Oh, over what period of time, sir? I have 14 to clarify. 15 Q. Well, you're giving the opinion today. 16 What other sources of information are you relying 17 on to give that opinion? Where did you get the 18 information upon which you are basing your opinion 19 regarding command lines? 20 A. Okay. Policies, policies and orders on 21 how the lines were to be set up and operated. 22 Q. Policies. So you're talking about church 23 publications that you're looking at? 24 A. Hubbard policy letters. 25 Q. Hubbard policy letters. Okay. And what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 824 1 specific Hubbard policy letters are you thinking 2 about? 3 A. Well -- 4 Q. Which ones are you relying upon to 5 formulate your opinion and give your testimony on 6 this commend lines issue? 7 A. Well, given my history in the 8 organization, there is a Volume 1 of the Green 9 Volumes, which has historically been the HCO 10 volume. There is considerable material in there 11 and there is even sections of it with regard to 12 command channels, command lines, lines of 13 communications, report lines, that one could just 14 open and it's been all grouped together. There is 15 scores of such policies that all of us had to study 16 and learn how to apply. 17 Q. And you're relying specifically on those, 18 on that information today in giving your opinion 19 about command lines? 20 A. I'm relying upon my application and 21 knowledge of it and getting other people to do it 22 in that fashion. 23 Q. And when is the last time you looked at 24 that material, sir? 25 A. I was actually glancing at it yesterday to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 825 1 see if there was anything else that I wanted to 2 actually use and present. 3 Q. What is your understanding of the facts of 4 this case which is going to support the opinion 5 that you're going to give regarding command lines? 6 A. That the initial incident with regard to 7 Lisa McPherson, that the incident that occurred 8 with her downtown and going Type III, which I think 9 is now an accepted term for what occurred, that 10 such an incident in downtown Clearwater involving 11 the authorities would have been a very serious 12 incident and would have sparked the reaction of 13 certain sections of the organization, and when I 14 say that, I don't mean just FSO but certain 15 sections of the organization, which it's really not 16 difficult to recognize the presence of. 17 For example, although a security guard may 18 show up and it is his role to do that with regard 19 to personnel at Fort Harrison, that the OSA would 20 show up, have to show up immediately as soon as it 21 was known and would have to take command. That is 22 the OSA function. It has been the Department 20 23 function since 1966. 24 Q. OSA is part of what? 25 A. OSA is Department 20 that Mr. Rinder is in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 826 1 charge of. 2 Q. It's part of what organization within the 3 Church of Scientology? 4 A. Well, every organization has a Department 5 20. 6 Q. Okay. What -- could you describe the 7 initial incident downtown? What happened as you 8 understand it, sir? 9 A. There was a small accident, she got out of 10 her car, she began to behave erratically, took off 11 her clothes. The EMT that showed up recognized it 12 as erratic behavior. She was mumbling various 13 things that was showing that there was something 14 wrong with her behavior. It was their professional 15 opinion that they were dealing with a person that 16 was having serious mental problems, and while there 17 was no sign of physical injury, in other words, she 18 was not -- there was no broken bones or anything 19 since it was a minor accident, that she needed to 20 be detained for her own safety because of her 21 behavior of walking down the street naked, et 22 cetera, and so was taken off for that purpose. 23 Q. Taken off where, sir? 24 A. Taken, moved off for that purpose to the 25 hospital. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 827 1 Q. Okay. Did they have her consent to take 2 her to the hospital, do you know? 3 A. No, they did not. 4 Q. Okay. What is the source of your 5 information for this -- these -- this incident in 6 which you just described for us? 7 A. Various reports that were provided to me 8 that were everything from -- that were obtained 9 under discovery, that, if I recall right, was 10 everything from reports from the medical people 11 that were on the scene, I think there was a police 12 report. I think there was even knowledge reports 13 that were filed by people that were involved or 14 showed up later. 15 Q. What did you rely on? Do you recall 16 reading a police report? 17 A. Somewhere I saw a police report, whether 18 or not it was about that particular incident, but I 19 know that I saw a number of reports that gave it 20 from different perspectives so I could understand 21 finally what happened. 22 Q. Yes sir, but I'm trying to find out what 23 you relied upon. You said you think there was a 24 police report, you think there was some other 25 report and you think you saw some other reports and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 828 1 other documents. I really want to know what you 2 know that you read and what you know you're relying 3 on for this information, not just what you're 4 speculating about. So could you try again, please? 5 A. Well, what I relied upon was a stack of 6 documents about 10 inches thick and buried within 7 that, as I said, were knowledge reports, there was 8 a report from the EMT about her behavior, and those 9 are the primary ones that I relied upon in piecing 10 together the incident, because prior to getting 11 this, I really had no information on what actually 12 occurred in the incident until I got the documents. 13 Mr. Dandar once sort of briefly mentioned it but I 14 didn't really fathom it at the time until I got the 15 actual reports. 16 MR. DANDAR: Can I interrupt you for a 17 minute? 18 MR. TITUS: Yeah. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 BY MR. TITUS: 21 Q. You said that this initial incident would 22 have sparked a reaction of certain sections of the 23 organization. What sections and what organization 24 are you talking about? 25 A. Well, it would FSO, and since it was an SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 829 1 external, and what I mean by that is basically off 2 the property in this case, since it was an external 3 matter downtown involving the authorities, this is 4 the domain of the OSA. 5 Q. What authorities, sir, are you talking 6 about? 7 A. Anybody -- well, in this case it'd just 8 even be an EMT, even a police officer shows up to 9 investigate the accident. 10 Q. No sir. But what authorities in this 11 particular incident are you talking about? I'm not 12 talking about generally but in this incident what 13 authorities are you referring to? 14 A. Scientology authorities? 15 Q. No sir. You said it involving the 16 authorities, it was an external incident and it was 17 involving the authorities. What authorities are 18 you talking about? 19 A. I just tried to describe. See, from the 20 perspective of OSA, anybody with any license to 21 act. That would be an EMT team, a police officer, 22 fire department. 23 Q. Okay. My question though is which 24 authorities showed up at this incident, which ones 25 are you talking about with respect specifically to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 830 1 this incident? 2 A. Well, to the degree that the EMT was there 3 and to the degree there were police officers 4 regarding the accident, that right there was 5 sufficient. 6 Q. Is it your testimony that the police 7 officers were there to respond to the accident in 8 which Lisa McPherson -- that Lisa McPherson had? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. That's your understanding of the facts? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And it's upon those facts that you're 13 basing your opinion, correct? 14 A. Well, to the degree -- I'm just saying to 15 the degree there was an incident downtown and 16 public officials were involved, then it becomes a 17 matter for OSA. 18 Q. I'm trying to find out what public 19 officials were involved to your knowledge, sir, 20 because you're basing your opinion upon these 21 facts, I understand. Is that correct? 22 A. Yes, but I -- the thing you need to 23 understand is it doesn't matter at that point. 24 When it's off the base and it's downtown and 25 somebody is walking down the street naked, the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 831 1 police don't even have to show up. At that point 2 it becomes a matter of OSA even if there are no 3 authorities. 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge, personal 5 knowledge of any orders that Alain Kartuzinski 6 received from David Miscavige concerning Lisa 7 McPherson? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you meet with any people to discuss 10 and prepare for your testimony today? 11 A. Mr. Dandar. 12 Q. Did you meet with any people to discuss 13 this case and your opinions in preparing to provide 14 your opinions today? 15 A. Mr. Dandar. 16 Q. Did you meet with anyone other than 17 Mr. Dandar? 18 A. Not with regard to my opinions, no. 19 Q. What is your opinion with respect to the 20 command lines at Scientology, how they are used for 21 transmission of orders and the like? 22 A. That there are certain priorities for 23 these command lines that extend beyond the 24 immediate organization and they are there 25 specifically for that purpose. One of the primary SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 832 1 purposes is for external threats, such as an 2 incident involving her, such as the filing of a 3 lawsuit, such as a bad press article. These are 4 things for which the report lines are established 5 for their own purpose. They go not through the 6 usual command line. It didn't go, say, from FSO up 7 to the management bureau that may be managing them 8 with regard to their usual activities. It will cut 9 over to the side because of the nature of the 10 subject, that it is an external threat, it's what 11 we call a PR flap, and it goes in a certain 12 direction. 13 At the same time, to the degree that she 14 was PTS, the first -- you know, it's like an EMT 15 arriving. They sort of, you know, a broken bone, 16 they put the splint on and then they turn it over 17 to the people to handle. OSA will come in an do 18 the immediate external threat handling. As soon as 19 she was brought back in, at that point it becomes 20 what we call a technical matter. RTC would have 21 also been notified because it was a technical 22 matter as PTS III. OSA really does not get into 23 PTS III except if the person is acting crazy and 24 going to go to the police or the media. They are 25 interested in the police and the media, not the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 833 1 individual. So that would have gone secondarily to 2 RTC. 3 Once she moved into the Fort Harrison, 4 then it would have become an RTC technical issue. 5 OSA, the OSA would have stood back and then simply 6 monitored to see if police, government, media are 7 going to show up and they would just do a standby 8 and watch since their role would basically be over. 9 Q. Okay. First of all, what is a PR flap? 10 Could you define that for us? 11 A. Well, Lisa McPherson taking her clothes 12 off downtown is a PR flap. 13 Q. That's an example of a PR flap. I want to 14 know the definition of a PR flap as you understand 15 it, please. 16 A. Something that is -- would prove 17 embarrassing, that's the lowest level, embarrassing 18 to the organization, that involves public relations 19 or public image. 20 Q. Is there anything -- is there such a thing 21 as something that's not a PR flap, a regular flap? 22 A. You can have regular flaps inside the 23 organization, which are not PR flaps. You can just 24 have flaps. 25 Q. What's the difference between a flap and a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 834 1 PR flap? 2 A. A PR flap is something that involves the 3 image of the organization, you know, like a mailing 4 that you're supposed to get out this week didn't 5 make it, that's a flap. You didn't make it, it's 6 not going to get ready until next week, we're going 7 to lose income, that's a flap. But a PR flap, 8 generally, about 99 percent of the time, 99.9 9 percent of the time, will involve external areas, 10 will involve the image of the organization. 11 Q. Now, what's the factual basis for your -- 12 I understand what your opinion then is. You're 13 going to testify that in your opinion what happened 14 in this case, what is your opinion with respect to 15 the command line here in this flap involving Lisa 16 McPherson? 17 A. Well, the first thing -- 18 Q. The PR flap. 19 A. The first thing is being the PR flap that 20 it was, certain elements of the organization would 21 have been instantly called into action, followed by 22 the second wave that would come in and take over. 23 Certain reports, out of sheer necessity, have to go 24 to certain areas, certain actions have to be taken, 25 which are just basically what is now called in the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 835 1 general nonScientology world, just good ole PR 2 damage control, and that this is how the 3 organization works, and so you can just predict 4 that. 5 Q. Who in the RTC would have been notified 6 due to the fact that you characterized this flap as 7 being a technical matter, who would have been 8 notified in the RTC? 9 A. That is -- first of all, that's pretty 10 much up to the individual. By the nature of 11 reports, as I said, you can send them to anybody, 12 and since they now have and have had for a number 13 of years, way back in the early '80s, e-mail 14 capabilities, you can just type it, you can cc 15 whoever you want. Senior CS INT is one that's 16 always required to be notified. There is always 17 what you might call a representative of the FSO on 18 the watch dog committee. That person would have 19 been notified because it directly involves the FSO. 20 There is various elements up there that -- it 21 depends upon the person sending these up and, as I 22 said yesterday, Clearwater has been for so many 23 years such a powder keg, so much attention on it, 24 just by evidence of this case alone, with the 25 amount of the top executives that have vacated SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 836 1 their jobs, you know. Mr. Rinder, who is supposed 2 to run an international network, you know, sits in 3 Clearwater. 4 Q. Excuse me, sir. Are you still responding 5 to the question? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I mean the point is you can measure it by 9 the amount of attention that comes down. That -- 10 Q. Who are those people who would be 11 notified? 12 MR. DANDAR: Wait a minute. Wait. You're 13 interrupting him. Let him finish his answer. 14 MR. TITUS: I'm not sure he's being 15 responsive and I'm not interrupting him. He 16 took a breath. I thought he was finished. 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, he -- did you see the 18 gesture? He was making a gesture and you 19 interrupted him. 20 BY MR. TITUS: 21 Q. Have you finished, sir? 22 A. Not quite. So what I'm saying is usually 23 the procedure is that if, you know -- certain 24 individuals have certain seniors, what we call 25 up-lines, that you will directly notify. If it is SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 837 1 wide ranging, then you will expand that report 2 line. You will notify senior CSN, you will notify 3 watch dog committee, you will notify COB. You 4 might then cc, even though you're a technical 5 person, you might then cc your own report, be 6 required to cc it over to OSA even though that is 7 not your report line. 8 Q. You reviewed a lot of documents in this 9 case for your testimony, is that correct? 10 A. Some documents. 11 Q. Some documents. Did you see any of those 12 reports, sir, any documents reporting to these 13 various -- 14 A. No, I didn't bring anything like that. I 15 saw knowledge reports back in the original 16 discovery documents. 17 Q. Reporting this incident to whom? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And to whom? 20 A. I don't recall right now. There was 21 reports that were going up lines to RTC and to OSA. 22 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of 23 these reports being made up line? 24 A. No, which I assume you mean at the time 25 her -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 838 1 Q. At the time. 2 A. Thank you. No. 3 Q. Do you have any evidence now to show that 4 these reports were made up line? 5 A. No, other than the copies that I saw in 6 discovery. 7 Q. Copies of what? 8 A. Reports. 9 Q. What reports? 10 A. That I said that I saw that were being 11 made at various stages in this. 12 Q. What stages and to whom? 13 A. As I said, there was reports being made to 14 the OSA. 15 Q. When and to whom, from whom, to whom? 16 A. There were reports being made on the 17 initial flap and what was being -- what had 18 happened. These went to OSA and RTC. I don't -- 19 I'm sorry, I would have to look at them to refresh 20 my memory as to exactly what person got them. 21 Q. You're basing your opinion on this 22 information that you don't recall? 23 A. Well, I recall that it went to OSA and 24 RTC. That's basically what I'm testifying to, is 25 that these are the echelons that are called in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 839 1 rather than -- see, and this is important, that 2 the -- what is presented is an organization like 3 the FSO is managed by a management section that is 4 senior to it and they are the ones that help them 5 move on a day?by?day or week-by-week basis, and I'm 6 just saying that there are certain incidents that 7 provoke reports into other echelons. 8 Q. Have you created any documents for this 9 litigation, any affidavits or notes, letters, 10 charts? 11 A. No, other than what I filed and what I 12 prepared for Mr. Dandar here today. 13 Q. Okay. Your second opinion, what is your 14 second opinion going to be about? What did you 15 prepare for Mr. Dandar today? 16 A. The documents that I have copied and 17 brought in that we're going to be using. There is 18 nothing written else. 19 Q. Those charts, those big billboard boards 20 behind you? 21 A. I did not prepare those. He had those. 22 Q. Did you participate in preparing those? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know what's on them? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 840 1 Q. Did you see them this morning? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is your -- 4 MR. DANDAR: These are the ones that were 5 in the last hearing adding David Miscavige as 6 a party defendant. These are Sea Org 7 documents. 8 Q. What's the second opinion you're going to 9 give, sir? 10 A. Well, whether or not it's second, I don't 11 know, but for our purposes here -- 12 Q. Okay. For purposes for our discussion, 13 tell me the next opinion you're going to give. 14 A. That the religious image of the 15 organization is one that is prepared for a 16 particular purpose and not for the fact that it is 17 a religion but for the purpose of making it appear 18 to be a religion, and this is done for the sheer 19 purpose of defense, and such as protecting itself 20 from lawsuit, investigation, and inquiry, as well 21 as for advancement, such as getting a tax exemption 22 or a recognition or some other advantage, and that 23 this is not sincerely held within the organization 24 but is done for a separate motive. 25 Q. Okay. What documents and information did SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 841 1 you review to support your opinion that -- that 2 opinion you just gave? 3 A. Well, first of all it's based upon the 21 4 years of having done that, of being one of the key 5 people who did it, and who I would just blatantly 6 admit fraudulently obtained religious recognition 7 from the State Department and the Labor Department, 8 from their sections. 9 Q. But it's not part of your opinion that 10 publics and staff members of the Church of 11 Scientology do not believe that the Church of 12 Scientology is their religion or is a religion, 13 isn't that true? 14 A. I lost the negative but I think I can 15 still respond. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 A. There are individuals who do believe it, 18 but I'm also of a firm, firm belief and knowledge 19 that there is a vast majority who consider it more 20 of a self-help therapy and have always considered 21 it and treated it as a self-help therapy. 22 Q. And what's the basis for that statement? 23 A. Years of experience of trying in many 24 cases to convince people that we have to look like 25 a church and having to deal with a lot of staff and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 842 1 a lot of public who objected to it, who objected to 2 us going around in ministerial collar because they 3 did not want to be part of a church and we had to 4 handle them. 5 Q. What's the factual basis, your 6 understanding of the facts of this case, that 7 support your opinion that the religious image is 8 prepared for the purpose of making it appear to be 9 a religion? 10 A. Can you sort of retranslate that for me, 11 sir, as far as you saying a factual basis, please? 12 Q. What facts do you rely upon to support 13 that opinion? 14 A. Well, one thing I'm going to be using is 15 the policy letter that I referred to yesterday that 16 has been altered to create a religious image, that 17 this is one of the ways that the -- a key way, it's 18 a key document that is often used by the 19 organization to show that Mr. Hubbard intended this 20 to be a religion, when really the original document 21 tells a slightly different story that he says this 22 -- the purpose of this, don't worry, it's just a 23 matter for the accountants and the attorneys, we'll 24 just keep doing what we're doing, and meanwhile, in 25 another paragraph, he's selling shares in the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 843 1 organization. So this was a -- this is a good 2 document that, in my opinion, encapsulates what it 3 is, because the organization is presenting a 4 completely altered version for the purpose, clearly 5 for the purpose of presenting this to the courts 6 and the media while hiding what Mr. Hubbard really 7 said, which shows his intention. 8 Q. Other than that policy letter, what else? 9 A. I'll be able to speak as far as my own 10 experiences, et cetera. 11 Q. Like what, what are your experiences? 12 A. Some of them that I mentioned before, such 13 as fraudulently obtaining -- I tried to find and I 14 could not locate the letter from the State 15 Department, I believe it was 1975, that the State 16 Department sent to me when they granted the Church 17 of Scientology religious recognition for the 18 purpose of visas. The Labor Department also sent 19 me a letter saying we are granting the Church of 20 Scientology religious recognition for the purpose 21 of labor laws. 22 This is -- these are -- in fact, the labor 23 recognition is often cited and has been continually 24 cited as part of the history of their religious 25 recognition and, of course, they are not going to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 844 1 produce the letter because it's now to me. 2 Q. Can you tell me, sir, with specific 3 references, if you can, since 1988, what steps the 4 church has taken to -- for the purpose of making it 5 appear that the Church of Scientology is a 6 religion? 7 A. Well, the biggest thing that they were -- 8 have been doing all through the '80s and carried on 9 through was the entire thing with the IRS. 10 Q. No sir. I'm not talking about the '80s. 11 My question is since 1988, tell me everything that 12 you have personal knowledge of that the Church of 13 Scientology has done for the purpose of making it 14 appear that the Church of Scientology is a 15 religion? 16 A. If you are referring, sir, to what I would 17 have percipiently inside the organization -- and I 18 would have to correct you. I left in '89. 19 Q. Okay. '89. 20 A. I have no percipient inside knowledge. 21 What I have is knowing and seeing the 22 representations that they make into the media and 23 knowing how the organization works. 24 Q. Okay. So, in other words, you have no 25 knowledge about what, if anything, the church has SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 845 1 done since 1989 to make it appear that it's a 2 religion? 3 A. I have records that they filed with the 4 IRS and I would say that's pretty convincing 5 evidence. 6 Q. What records are those, sir? 7 A. What they filed with the IRS to get their 8 tax exemption. 9 Q. Which the IRS granted them as a religion, 10 is that correct? 11 A. No. It granted them as a 501C3. The IRS 12 does not recognize religion. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. It's something they always keep promoting, 15 and even Mr. Weinberg tried to promote it 16 yesterday, as we've been recognized as a religion 17 and a church. No, the IRS never does that. They 18 just say you're nonprofit and that's it. 19 Q. Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, did I miss 21 something? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. They say a little 23 more than that and you know it. Maybe you 24 don't know it. 25 Q. Give me your next opinion, sir. Do you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 846 1 have another opinion that you're going to give this 2 morning? 3 A. That the role of the Sea Organization has 4 basically been overlooked. It is the actual -- 5 it's the actual structure or influence. It's very 6 difficult to describe because it takes its own 7 shape according to its needs. It's like water 8 seeking its own level. Actually, that's a good 9 analogy. It takes the shape of wherever it flows 10 into. 11 The Sea Organization is the actual moving 12 force of the bulk of the organization so that even 13 if you look at the command channels and you 14 understand that, and then if you look at the 15 corporate structure and you understand that, you're 16 still missing what is actually going on and how the 17 organization, the entire organization is controlled 18 from the very top echelons down to the lower 19 echelons. 20 Q. What is the basis for that opinion, sir? 21 A. Well, starting with familiarity, with my 22 own, as well as I'll be able to provide 23 documentation. 24 Q. When you talk about your familiarity, 25 you're talking about your familiarity as of 1989, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 847 1 when you left the church, is that correct? 2 A. No. I'm talking about 21 years of having 3 seen the role of the Sea Organization, both being 4 outside of it and watching its operations, seeing 5 its development and growth. 6 Q. But the 21 years you're talking about is 7 the 21 years that you were a member of the Church 8 of Scientology, isn't that true? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that stopped in 1988? 11 A. '89. 12 Q. I'm sorry. I keep doing that. 1989, is 13 that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So since 1989 do you have any percipient 16 knowledge of how the Sea Org works? 17 A. I have only their publications. 18 Q. Which are? 19 A. Sea Org magazines is a primary source of 20 information. I think there is probably no better 21 source of information of how they operate than 22 their own documents. 23 Q. Well, what's -- how many Sea Org magazines 24 have you -- do you subscribe? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 848 1 Q. How often do you receive these Sea Org 2 magazines? 3 A. Oh, they float around through various 4 people and you can always find one here and there. 5 Q. How often are they published? 6 A. Now and then. They are very sporadic. 7 All publications within the organization are 8 sporadic. They try to keep them quarterly but 9 sometimes they are not. 10 Q. So your -- is it fair to say then that 11 your opinion as to the role of the Sea Organization 12 is based entirely upon what you have, since 1989, 13 is based entirely upon what you have read in Sea 14 Org magazines? 15 A. As understood and brought by 21 years 16 experience. 17 Q. Okay. And can you tell us about how many 18 magazines you have read since 1989, Sea Org 19 magazines? Alternatively, can you identify which 20 publications, particularly which magazines, you've 21 read? 22 A. The number of magazines that I've read in 23 the last 10 years is, I don't know, I've just -- 24 there has been 20 or 25. I remember in particular 25 the one on the 29th anniversary, which was a very SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 849 1 big issue, one on the 27th anniversary. There are 2 certain ones that are key because of their size and 3 their photographs. 4 Q. And how is it that you say that the Sea 5 Org is the moving force of the organization, what 6 is the basis for that statement and how does that 7 work? 8 A. Well, it's like a dominant political party 9 in a one-party country, that it's really the 10 political party that moves it. 11 Q. Who is the head of the Sea Org? 12 A. David Miscavige. 13 Q. Who is the head of the RTC? 14 A. David Miscavige. 15 Q. Who is the head of ASI? 16 A. Well, the last I knew it was Norman 17 Starkey. 18 Q. How does your opinion regarding the role 19 of the Sea Organization have anything to do with 20 the facts of this case as you understand it? 21 A. Well, it basically complements the -- and 22 fills out this point of reports and responsiveness 23 of the organization through command lines, because 24 in the end, command lines really don't explain it 25 all, that it -- command lines do establish certain SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 850 1 channels but Sea Org lines establish their own, and 2 so that becomes the wild card in the deck. So that 3 anything that becomes slightly unusual, at that 4 point then you can pretty much be assured that it 5 was a Sea Org influence. It's like trying -- like 6 a physicist trying to measure something that they 7 can't see, like a black hole, so that somebody 8 could say, well, how come this organization just 9 decided to close its doors and move. Well, you can 10 pretty much guess that was a Sea Org mission that 11 was sent in to do it and nobody else really has the 12 authority to do it. 13 Q. What's your next opinion? 14 A. Those are the three. 15 Q. Those are the three and you have no other 16 opinion that you're going to render in this case, 17 is that what your testimony is? 18 A. Well, I'm sure there will be adjuncts to 19 that as they come up, but those are the three 20 categories. 21 Q. Okay. Give me all the adjuncts that 22 you're aware of with respect to your command line 23 opinions. I want to know all of your opinions, 24 adjuncts, whatever you want to call them, I want to 25 know all of your opinions, whether they are the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 851 1 primary opinion or subsidiary opinions. 2 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 3 Q. Okay. Give me -- 4 A. That is - I can't -- you know, you're 5 asking me sit down and tell me your life, and I 6 don't even know where to start at that point. 7 You'd have to ask me specific questions. 8 Q. Okay. Do you have any other opinions? 9 You've identified you have an opinion regarding 10 command lines, you have an opinion regarding the 11 religious image of the church, and you have an 12 opinion regarding the role of the Sea Organization. 13 Do you have any other opinions that you're going to 14 render today? 15 A. That would be based upon the questions. 16 Q. You've been hired as an expert and I 17 assume you've been hired to give expert opinion. I 18 want to know what expert opinions you're going to 19 give. Are you going to give any other expert 20 opinions other than pertaining to those three that 21 you have identified so far? 22 A. Well, they are large subjects, sir. I 23 mean they -- if you want me to try to break down 24 into certain areas, I can do my best on it. 25 Whether or not I would be asked the question, I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 852 1 don't really know, but I would be happy to break it 2 down and do that. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Pick one. 5 Q. Command lines. 6 A. Command lines. Okay. What part do you 7 want to know? Did I say something -- pick an area. 8 Q. No sir. Do you have any other opinions 9 about command lines other than what you've already 10 expressed today? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Have you been -- are you prepared to give 13 that opinion in your trial testimony? 14 A. If asked, yes. 15 Q. Okay. And do you expect to be asked? 16 A. I really don't know, sir. It depends upon 17 what Mr. Dandar formulates as his questions. As we 18 all know, attorneys change their mind in the middle 19 of everything. 20 Q. Okay. Well, what's this opinion then? 21 A. The command channels booklet, which gives 22 the form of the organization, while it was designed 23 to educate Scientologists, it was also intended for 24 two other key purposes at the time. One was a PR 25 purpose, to create the image that there were these SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 853 1 standard channels. Also, this is something that 2 had been in the works for quite a while and that I 3 also have percipient knowledge of, that it was 4 actually being worked on for quite a while. 5 Q. I'm listening, sir. Go ahead. 6 A. Okay. And that what it was intended to do 7 also is to create -- try to reinforce the corporate 8 shield so they could -- so that it was a carefully 9 worded document, very carefully worded so that if 10 anybody says, well, how does this really work, you 11 can bring this document forward and say, see, this 12 is how it really works. 13 Q. Did you prepare that document? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who prepared that document? 16 A. That was prepared out of RTC. 17 Q. Did you participate in any of the 18 discussions with the people who prepared that 19 document? 20 A. No. 21 Q. In connection with its preparation? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. So it has a function, because everything 25 that you prepare in that way for that type of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 854 1 distribution with the organization has more than an 2 informational nature. You know, when Mr. Hubbard 3 would issue a bulletin or a policy letter, nine 4 times out of 10 he did it for plain instructional 5 purposes, he wrote a few things for PR purposes, 6 but for plain instructional purposes. But when -- 7 Q. How do you know that? 8 A. You can just read it and see it. 9 Q. So that's your opinion? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Personal opinion? 12 A. Yes, and it's there for that. As opposed 13 to, let's say, a piece of advertising, gloss 14 advertising, it's not for consumption, it's meant 15 for promotion, and you can start to recognize -- 16 you know, it's not hard to recognize the 17 difference. 18 Well, when you have been in that 19 enterprise for 20 years and you have been there and 20 you've been responsible for creating publications 21 and stories and articles and TV shows that are 22 designed to create an image that really doesn't 23 have that much to do with internal, it's not hard 24 to recognize the traits and the nature of this 25 thing, that the purpose of this thing was to be SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 855 1 used in court cases and to the media, et cetera. 2 It was built as much for external consumption as it 3 was for internal consumption. 4 Q. That's your opinion? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. TITUS: I will stop with my questions 7 because I have other counsel and I'm sure they 8 have a few. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want a cup of 11 water? 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Sandy. I'd love 13 a cup of water. 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. HANES: 17 Q. Mr. Young, my name is Ron Hanes. I 18 represent Janis Johnson. I probably speak lower 19 than Mr. Titus, so if you have trouble hearing me, 20 let me know. 21 Do you intend -- and I don't want to go 22 into all these subsets of your opinions. Quite 23 frankly, they should have been in the interrogatory 24 that we received. That having been said, and I do 25 object again to proceeding along this expedited SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 856 1 basis without your full opinions being provided to 2 us, and they have not been, it appears to me. Are 3 you going to offer any expert opinions regarding 4 Janis Johnson individually? 5 A. No sir. 6 Q. When I ask that question, I mean either 7 directly passing upon anything Ms. Johnson did or 8 did not do? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Would it be fair to say that any knowledge 11 that you have regarding Ms. Johnson in this case is 12 based upon what Mr. Dandar has either provided to 13 you through documentation or any documents I assume 14 you may have researched on your own? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Other than documents that Mr. Dandar 17 provided to you, have you conducted any research on 18 your own regarding Ms. Johnson? 19 A. I did an Internet search once. I -- 20 Q. I think you've testified to that at the 21 beginning of the deposition? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Regarding her medical license, things of 24 that nature? 25 A. Right. There's nothing else. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 857 1 Q. Did someone direct you to do that? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Were you retained as an expert at the time 4 that you did that by Mr. Dandar? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. For what purpose did you do that? 7 A. Well, as I said in my deposition, I 8 actually had two reasons. One, I wanted to take an 9 actual instance that I -- a solid instance by which 10 I could learn Internet research, since I knew 11 nothing, and that if you look at the thing 12 Mr. Weinberg provided, said if someone will 13 instruct me on how to use a search engine. So it 14 was pretty much as much trying to learn it and, at 15 the same time, if I learn anything, then I will 16 come up with something that's relevant as opposed 17 to looking up dogs or something. So it was as much 18 to do that as it was to learn something. 19 Q. Any opinion that you're going to offer in 20 your trial deposition you are not offering against 21 Janis Johnson? 22 A. No sir. 23 Q. Some of these go without saying but I need 24 to cover my bases on this. You have no personal or 25 percipient knowledge of Janis Johnson's duties and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 858 1 responsibilities at Flag Service Organization in 2 1995? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge regarding 5 Ms. Johnson's personal religious beliefs? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Would you agree that it would be 8 inappropriate for you to pass judgment on 9 Ms. Johnson's personal religious beliefs? 10 A. I have difficulty with the question. My 11 first response is -- has always been sort of like 12 it's a free country, I guess I'm always as an 13 individual free to respond about anybody's belief. 14 Q. But you don't intend on offering any 15 opinion at trial on Ms. Johnson's personal 16 religious beliefs? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Regardless of whether you choose to do 19 that in casual conversation or not? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Likewise, you don't intend on passing any 22 or offering any personal opinion on Ms. McPherson's 23 personal religious beliefs? 24 A. I haven't been asked to do that, no. 25 Q. You have no personal knowledge of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 859 1 Ms. Johnson's rank in the Sea Organization? 2 A. No. 3 Q. You have no personal knowledge as to 4 whether or not Ms. Johnson has signed a billion 5 year contract? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You have no personal knowledge really as 8 to whether or not Ms. Johnson has a rank in the Sea 9 Org other than your own speculation? 10 A. That's correct. 11 MR. DANDAR: It's over an hour now. 12 MR. HANES: I would assume you're not 13 going to cut me off here. 14 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to cut you off in 15 a few minutes, but go ahead. 16 MR. HANES: And I assume you're going to 17 let Mr. Polli have a chance to ask some 18 questions. 19 MR. DANDAR: I wouldn't think so but it 20 all depends on how nice you are. 21 BY MR. HANES: 22 Q. Are you comfortable in answering a few 23 more questions? 24 A. Yes sir, I am. 25 Q. Thank you. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 860 1 A. Thanks to Mr. Weinberg's courtesy. 2 MR. WEINBERG: There you go. 3 THE WITNESS: There you go. 4 MR. DANDAR: It's a nice professional 5 day. 6 MR. WEINBERG: A good deed got me -- got 7 you 15 minutes. 8 MR. DANDAR: And you know what, I was -- 9 it was really nice yesterday too. I mean it 10 was like a normal deposition. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, good. I'm glad to 12 hear it. 13 THE WITNESS: Did we just stipulate to 15 14 minutes? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Go ahead. 16 BY MR. HANES: 17 Q. Mr. Young, are you familiar with 18 Ms. Johnson's routine or her daily routine when she 19 was a staff member during 1995 at Flag Service 20 Organization? 21 A. No sir. 22 Q. And you don't intend on offering any 23 opinion as to that, correct? 24 A. No sir. 25 Q. As a matter of fact, you don't intend on SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 861 1 offering any opinion as to anyone's routine at Flag 2 Service Organization in 1995? 3 A. No sir. I would be capable of responding 4 if somebody were to ask me what is an MLO, but that 5 would be as a generic subject, like saying what is 6 an auditor. 7 Q. As opposed to a specific expertise? 8 A. That is true. 9 Q. Just help me. If you've answered these as 10 part of the prior two days of deposition, please 11 forgive me but, just quickly, what's the longest 12 period of time you ever spent at Flag in 13 Clearwater, consecutively I'm talking? 14 A. Perhaps a week. 15 Q. And you were not a staff member there at 16 any time? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You didn't have percipient knowledge or 19 personal, day-to-day knowledge of the ongoing 20 activities at Flag Service Organization during your 21 time as a Scientologist? 22 A. Sections of it because I -- my connection 23 to it was through Department 20 activities, so I 24 was -- my purpose of being there was for that 25 section. As to the rest of the organization, what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 862 1 was going on, would be something I might hear but I 2 was not directly interested in knowing about it. 3 Q. And I'm speaking to being on site to 4 observe day-to-day activities taking place at Flag. 5 You were never there in that capacity? 6 A. Yes, I was, during that time when I would 7 be there. See, this is the point. You come in 8 from another echelon, you come in and say there 9 would be a PR problem or dealing with something, 10 gathering information, but I'm trying to contain 11 it, that it would be Department 20 activities that 12 I would do that. 13 Q. And the longest period of time that you 14 did that was one week? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Or is that a separate occasion that you're 17 speaking of? 18 A. No, that was -- the longest single time 19 would be one week. 20 Q. And what year was that? 21 A. I don't remember the year exactly but just 22 for your purposes, about 20 years ago. 23 Q. Closer to 1980 than 1990? 24 A. Yes, definitely. 25 Q. Is there anyone that could confirm that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 863 1 activity having taken place whereupon you would 2 have been present there? 3 A. Well, Mr. Rinder is sitting here. When he 4 and I were good friends, I remember seeing him 5 there. He can certainly be called to know that I 6 was there, although I don't know how he would want 7 to characterize it given our positions. 8 Q. And the last time that you were on site at 9 Flag Service Organization to observe any activities 10 would have been when? 11 A. Probably about maybe 1978. I think I went 12 there on a fund raising tour. 13 Q. Has -- now I'm asking you more for general 14 knowledge. Has Flag expanded, to your knowledge, 15 since 1978? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Either physically through structures or 18 through staff? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Regarding -- I just want to follow up on 21 one of Mr. Titus's questions. You indicated that 22 there were some knowledge reports that you had seen 23 in this case. Am I using the correct term? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you had a question as to where those SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 864 1 knowledge reports went, you didn't have any 2 specific knowledge as to where they necessarily 3 went. 4 A. I don't recall specifically without 5 looking at them. I know to what echelon they went. 6 Q. How many knowledge reports do you recall 7 looking at? 8 A. There might have been about a half dozen. 9 Q. Do you recall any of the specific content 10 in any of those knowledge reports or could you 11 produce them to us? 12 A. I don't have them. I -- they were 13 documents Mr. Dandar provided to me under 14 discovery, so I'm sure I could ask Mr. Dandar and 15 we could find them again and I could recognize 16 them. 17 Q. Can you distinguish for me what would be a 18 knowledge report as to any other type of report if 19 I observed the document? 20 A. Oh, it will say in the subject line re, 21 you know, colon, or subject, colon. It will either 22 say knowledge report or it will say KR in caps, 23 maybe or maybe not followed with the subject, or it 24 may be handwritten, if somebody will write it up 25 there off to the side, re: KR in big letters. 99 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 865 1 times out of a 100 the knowledge report has 2 knowledge report or KR written on it because that 3 is a distinct classification of report written. 4 Now, that is distinct from, say, a weekly 5 report in which you report the activities; a daily 6 report, a stat report, a technical report, et 7 cetera. A KR is probably one of the most general 8 categories. Anybody can write one on any subject 9 to anybody, as opposed to a weekly report follows a 10 very exact sequence and going up through a chain of 11 command, but KRs, as we call them, anybody could 12 write one to anybody. 13 Q. Okay. And you would speculate as to who 14 necessarily wrote it without looking at the 15 document or where it necessarily ended up? 16 A. That is true. 17 Q. But you believe you had seen about a half 18 a dozen of those? 19 A. To the best of my recollection, sir, yes. 20 Q. Okay. Just summarize for me what 21 information you have reviewed regarding 22 Ms. Johnson? 23 A. Well, at the time, and again, this was a 24 couple of years ago, and it just came in the 25 package of materials, so I wasn't reviewing her as SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 866 1 much as she was inside of the material and I was 2 just having to understand the various people and 3 what they were doing. So I did not sit down with a 4 pack of material or review her in particular. She 5 was just one of the names that came along the way 6 that I had to understand. And that's the best way 7 I can describe it. It wasn't a separate one except 8 when I used her name for, you know, can I use the 9 Internet for information. 10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Are we going to have 11 Mr. Polli now? 12 MR. HANES: Let me just ask him a couple 13 more questions. 14 Q. What model -- 15 MR. DANDAR: Sorry, Mr. Polli. 16 Q. -- are you relying upon in providing us 17 your definition of religion? 18 A. It's I would just say pretty much my own 19 understanding of my model from my own educational 20 background. 21 Q. One that you've created yourself? 22 A. Well, for this particular occasion and the 23 best way that I can create it. If I were to sit 24 down and write an article for a popular magazine as 25 opposed to a, quote, a scholarly magazine, I would SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 867 1 change the model. 2 MR. HANES: I'm going to pass you to 3 Mr. Polli. I may have a question or two if 4 Mr. Dandar allows me to follow up. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. POLLI: 8 Q. Mr. Young, my name is Bob Polli and I 9 represent David Houghton. I would take this 10 opportunity to lodge the same objections as -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Noted. 12 Q. I have to get right to the meat of the 13 coconut because, obviously, we're on some kind of a 14 time situation. Do you know David Houghton? 15 A. No sir. 16 Q. Have you ever met David Houghton? 17 A. No sir. 18 Q. Do you know what he does now at the 19 church? 20 A. No sir. 21 Q. Do you know what he did back in November 22 or December 1995? 23 A. I don't recall, sir. 24 Q. Did you review documents regarding or 25 information regarding David Houghton for your SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 868 1 testimony today? 2 A. No sir. 3 Q. Have you ever reviewed any documents that 4 contained the name of David Houghton? 5 A. I remember it coming up in the pack of 6 material a couple of years ago but it was one of 7 those things that it didn't become relevant to what 8 Mr. Dandar finally decided he needed me to focus 9 on. 10 Q. Can you recall specifically how his name 11 came up in that packet? 12 A. No sir. 13 Q. Is it your recollection that his name came 14 up in the reports written by the people that 15 watched Lisa McPherson during the 17? or 18-day 16 stay at the Church of Scientology? 17 A. I don't remember his name in the -- what 18 we call the logs, you know. To ask me where do I 19 remember seeing it would be going back into the 20 reports of what different people had been doing. 21 Q. Okay. My understanding is that the three 22 areas of expertise that you responded to in 23 Mr. Weinberg's question was familiarity with 24 command lines, how Sea Org works and religious 25 presentation of Scientology, and with regards to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 869 1 the religious presentation of Scientology, I 2 believe you said that the public relations aspect 3 of it, how you present a subject to create an image 4 as in advertising, and no one ever asked you 5 whether you had a special expertise in advertising, 6 special training, education, experience in 7 advertising. You mentioned earlier that 8 Scientology involved and your job specifically 9 involved a great deal in advertising. 10 A. Well, advertising was one category. There 11 was also other ways that you do public relations. 12 Q. Right. And you pretty well covered the 13 other ways yesterday. I guess what I'm asking you 14 is to fill in a gap in my notes from yesterday, 15 because no one really asked you about whether you 16 had special expertise in advertising, or training, 17 education or skills? 18 A. Other than my own -- the particular 19 experiences that I had in my jobs, no. 20 Q. Were you trained on the job, is that what 21 you're saying then? 22 A. Yes sir. 23 Q. So you have no certificates, no particular 24 degrees or expertise in advertising other than what 25 you learned on the job? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 870 1 A. That's true. 2 Q. Okay. On the job at the Church of 3 Scientology during that 21 years? 4 A. Well, not exactly. I was involved in 5 public relations in political campaigns, and so we 6 were involved in some advertising material and 7 doing things there when I was working for the 8 Democratic State Central Committee. 9 Q. This is before the Church of Scientology? 10 A. Yes. This was 1964. 11 Q. When you were asked how this public 12 relations and creating an image was relevant to 13 this wrongful death case, you replied that it was 14 your position Scientology wasn't a valid religion. 15 Is that position going to trickle down to David 16 Houghton, are you going to give an opinion on 17 whether or not David Houghton has a bona fide 18 belief that Scientology is a religion? 19 A. No sir. 20 Q. And I guess you couldn't do that because 21 you don't know David Houghton, you haven't talked 22 to him? 23 A. That's correct. 24 THE WITNESS: I need to ask my counsel one 25 question real fast. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 871 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 A. Go ahead. 3 Q. One of the opinions that you just talked 4 about is that in your opinion, your expert opinion, 5 Scientology is run by the Sea Org and the Sea Org 6 structure and that it's a nexus in Scientology, 7 that it runs from the very top and trickles all the 8 way down to as low as it wants to go. 9 My question to you is if you know where 10 David Houghton is in the scheme of things, are you 11 going to render an opinion in your trial deposition 12 that will come up in a couple of minutes as to 13 whether or not David Houghton has a role or a part 14 in this nexus and how it applies -- and if he does, 15 how that applies to the Lisa McPherson situation? 16 A. Specifically to Mr. Houghton, no sir. 17 Q. You also talked about different approaches 18 to Scientology and opining about Scientology 19 yesterday. One of the gentlemen you mentioned was 20 a Dr. Kent. You say he took a scholarly approach 21 to his explanations of Scientology. What kind of 22 approach do you take in your expert opinions? 23 A. In what capacity? I'm here in a different 24 capacity than I -- I'm not quite sure I can answer 25 your question. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 872 1 Q. Well, you don't understand my question? 2 Because I will try to articulate it so it's more 3 understandable. 4 A. If you could, please. 5 Q. Okay. And this goes from questions you 6 answered yesterday about approaches to being an 7 expert about Scientology, and one of the persons -- 8 people you talked highly about was a Dr. Kent from 9 Canada. And while I really didn't follow the -- 10 Dr. Kent's opinion, I did hear you say that you 11 appreciated the way he presented his opinion 12 because he took a scholarly approach to 13 Scientology, the discussion of Scientology. 14 I'm asking you what kind -- as an expert, 15 an alleged expert or expert in Scientology, what 16 kind of approach do you take in rendering your 17 opinion? 18 A. On this case it would just be simply a 19 factual analytical approach as opposed to 20 scholastic, philosophical, narrative, biographical, 21 et cetera. Mine would just be a recitation of 22 facts and pretty much as dryly as one might imagine 23 them. 24 Q. Okay. Did you review the fifth amended 25 complaint to provide a basis for any opinions you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 873 1 may give as soon as we do our trial deposition? 2 A. No sir. 3 Q. Did you review David Houghton's interviews 4 with the State Attorney's Office in preparation for 5 the opinions that you're going to render or 6 opinions that you're going to render at the trial 7 deposition? 8 A. No sir. 9 Q. In response to a question that Mr. Hanes 10 asked you a couple of minutes ago, you, I believe, 11 stated that you came to Clearwater in 1978 from a 12 different or another echelon. 13 A. Yes sir. 14 Q. What echelon did you come from? 15 A. From Department 20 at the US level. 16 Q. Is that a Sea Org department? 17 A. Not in 1978 it wasn't, no. 18 Q. So that's changed from 1978? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You also said yesterday that you were 21 going to render an opinion on David Miscavige's 22 role in the PR flap concerning Lisa McPherson. I 23 believe that's a discussion you had with 24 Mr. Weinberg. I'm not sure whether you're going to 25 render an opinion on it but you had that discussion SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 874 1 yesterday. 2 A. I wouldn't characterize it as that. 3 Q. Okay. Well, that was my sloppy notes. 4 I'm trying to read my writing. My focus or concern 5 with that is how or if it impacts David Houghton. 6 Are you going to, in your trial testimony, funnel 7 that on down to wherever David Houghton is in the 8 pecking order? 9 A. No sir. 10 MR. POLLI: I have no other questions. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, because of the 12 kindness that I rendered this morning, I've 13 got a couple of questions that I want to ask. 14 Is that all right? 15 MR. DANDAR: Just a couple. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q. Did -- Mr. Young, hello again. Did Lisa 20 McPherson believe Scientology was a religion? 21 A. That is a difficult topic because there 22 was -- there were fragments that -- Mr. Dandar 23 asked me that at one point way back when when I was 24 going through this, and I said I did not have 25 enough information, that there might be more SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 875 1 information that one could glean out from PC 2 folders but I wasn't able to render an opinion on 3 that. 4 Q. Well, you did see a variety of information 5 indicating that she was, as a public, deeply 6 involved in many church activities, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. That she had been a Scientologist for the 9 better part of her adult life, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That she had been on staff at one point, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That she had moved to Clearwater to be 15 closer to the church, you understood that, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And, you know, so based on all of that, 18 you know, is it your opinion that she, as a member 19 of the public with that history, had a bona fide 20 belief that Scientology was her religion? 21 A. No, definitely not. That would not be 22 sufficient criteria, just that, because there was 23 many people who would fit that criteria who would 24 not consider it a religion, would consider it a 25 self-help therapy. There would be some that fit SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 876 1 that criteria who would, Mr. Weinberg. 2 Q. So what you're telling me is you don't 3 know as to Lisa McPherson, you don't have enough 4 information? 5 A. That is true, sir. 6 MR. DANDAR: We're way over the time now. 7 That's an hour and a half. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. This is really for 9 you on the subpoena. Can you just tell us, 10 both of you, what efforts were made to locate 11 the documents that we asked for on the 12 subpoena? 13 MR. DANDAR: Are you talking about 14 Stacy's subpoena? 15 MR. WEINBERG: And Vaughn's subpoena. I 16 mean what efforts were made to locate the 17 documents the representations have been made 18 today aren't available? 19 MR. DANDAR: The documents I produced 20 yesterday in response to Vaughn's subpoena to 21 produce documents or -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. The documents 23 you produced yesterday was in response to our 24 agreement, I think, that we were entitled to 25 stuff before and the other defendants. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 877 1 MR. DANDAR: And you've received all the 2 documents I have in reference to Mr. Young or 3 Stacy Brooks. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And so what I'm 5 asking is what effort -- can we just have on 6 the record what effort was made by Mr. Young 7 and by Ms. Brooks to comply with these 8 subpoenas? 9 MR. DANDAR: I asked each one of them 10 individually, I went through each paragraph 11 and said do you have this, do you have this, 12 do you have this, and they answered those -- 13 my requests. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 15 MR. DANDAR: And it says reference to 16 Stacy, she has none. 17 MR. WEINBERG: And doesn't have access to 18 them either, is what you're saying? 19 MR. DANDAR: Well, anything to do with 20 that animal foundation, she has no access to 21 that. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 23 MR. HERTZBERG: Are you representing that 24 neither Stacy Young Brooks or Vaughn Young 25 have a single piece of paper that reflect SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 878 1 anything to do with payments received from 2 Robert Minton or others or from your firm, 3 that there isn't one document that addresses 4 that, or reimbursement for expenses, for 5 example? I'm, in particular, focusing on 6 paragraphs numbered 3 and 4 of these 7 subpoenas. Is that what you're stating on the 8 record? 9 MR. DANDAR: I'm stating on the record 10 that I asked each one of them that question 11 and they said none, and I can tell you -- I 12 mean I can see you're in disbelief but that's 13 just the way it is. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Yes, I am. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We'll just mark as 16 exhibits a copy of two subpoenas. 17 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. Go ahead. 18 (Defendant's Composite Exhibit D was 19 marked for identification.) 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Let's take a break so 21 we can regroup for the trial -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, it's 23 going to be Composite Exhibit D, okay, which 24 is the Stacy subpoena and the Vaughn subpoena. 25 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 879 1 THE WITNESS: I prefer the name Robert, 2 Sandy, actually. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry, Robert. 4 Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: Just as an aside, if we get 6 on a first-name basis. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, don't push it. 8 THEREUPON, the deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN 9 YOUNG was concluded at 10:54 a.m. 10 NOTE: The original and one copy of the 11 foregoing deposition will be held by Mr. Shaw; copy 12 to Mr. Dandar. 13 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing 14 of the deposition transcript will be handled by the 15 office of Mr. Kennan Dandar of the firm Dandar & 16 Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201, 17 Tampa, Florida. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97-01235 880 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 Volume VI 3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the 4 foregoing deposition given by me on January 21, 5 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the following 6 corrections, if any, should be made in the 7 transcript: 8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Subject to the above corrections, if any, 19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing 20 deposition. 21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this 22 __________ day of ____________________ , 2000. 23 24 ________________________________ 25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 881 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 COUNTY OF POLK 5 6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby 7 certify that the witness named herein personally 8 appeared before me and was duly sworn. 9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10 22nd day of January, 2000. 11 12 13 14 ________________________________ 15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR 16 Notary Public - State of Florida 17 My Commission Expires: 10-23?03 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 882 1 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA 3 COUNTY OF POLK 4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter 6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared 8 before me for the taking of the foregoing 9 deposition, and that I was authorized to and did 10 stenographically and electronically report the 11 deposition; and that a review of the transcript was 12 requested; and that the transcript is a true and 13 complete record of my stenographic notes and 14 recordings thereof. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an 16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause, 17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party 18 connected with this litigation, nor am I 19 financially interested in the outcome of this 20 action. 21 DATED THIS 22nd day of January, 2000, at 22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida. 23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10-23-03 25 Transcript ordered: 1-21-00 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000