1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97-01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR January 20 & 21, 2000 25 665 1 APPEARANCES 2 Counsel for Plaintiff: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 Dandar & Dandar, P.A. Attorneys at Law 4 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 6 Service Organization: MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 7 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP Attorneys at Law 8 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 10 Attorney at Law 740 Broadway, 5th Floor 11 New York, New York 10003 12 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS, JR. 13 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 14 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 15 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 16 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 17 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 18 Tampa, Florida 33602 19 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: MR. ROBERT P. POLLI 20 Robert P. Polli, P.A. Attorney at Law 21 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: 23 Mr. Michael Garko Mr. Jesse Prince 24 Mr. Michael Rinder Ms. Lara Cartwright 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (via the Internet) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 666 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS PAGE 3 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 4 Service Organization: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG......... 672 7 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 796 8 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 797 9 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE.............. 798 10 11 12 13 EXHIBITS 14 Defendant's Exhibit A.......................... 678 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 667 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97-01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 14 deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, upon oral 15 examination in the above-styled cause, at the 16 instance of the Defendant Church of Scientology 17 Flag Service Organization, for the purposes of 18 discovery or use at trial or both, pursuant to 19 Florida Rules of Civil Procedure, proceedings 20 therefor were held before Susan D. Wasilewski, 21 Registered Professional Reporter, Certified 22 Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the 23 State of Florida at large, at 220 East Madison 24 Street, 12th Floor, Tampa, Florida, on January 20, 25 2000, at 3:50 p.m. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 668 1 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 2 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. 3 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 4 had and taken: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 6 by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, having been previously duly sworn, 8 continued to testify as follows: 9 MR. DANDAR: Today is January 20th, 19 -- 10 2000, excuse me. This is the continuation of 11 Robert Vaughn Young's discovery deposition. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Now, a few housekeeping 13 things: You -- we got -- you just brought in 14 a box of something. What is that, Ken? 15 MR. DANDAR: Those are the exhibits to 16 the plaintiff's response to Flag's motion for 17 summary adjudication on the issue of 18 religiosity. 19 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And that would 20 be you would say what, about a foot high, or 21 what do you think? 22 MR. DANDAR: I don't think that comes out 23 to 12 inches, no. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Something like nine inches 25 or something like that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 669 1 MR. DANDAR: That's probably six to seven 2 inches. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And then we got a 4 fax with 13 pages including the cover page 5 that was a one-page response to 6 interrogatories that was handwritten out, and 7 is that -- this is the response to the expert 8 interrogatories, that's what it is? 9 MR. DANDAR: That's -- that's correct, 10 signed by me, notarized. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I guess it came in 12 this afternoon right around three o'clock. 13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And then there are 11 15 letters -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: -- that go from June 30th, 18 1997, until April 3rd, 1998, which purports to 19 be correspondence between you or your office 20 and the Youngs. Is that right? 21 MR. DANDAR: I think they're mostly 22 Vaughn Young but they speak for themselves. 23 Those are all the documents in the world that 24 exist between my office and Robert Vaughn 25 Young, and if you want to throw Stacy Brooks SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 670 1 into there, the former Stacy Young, that would 2 include her, too, because I don't think that 3 -- unless something says it's addressed to 4 her, there wouldn't be anything to her. 5 MR. WEINBERG: My question to you, was 6 there any correspondence in May of 1997 7 between you and/or your office and either of 8 the Youngs or both of the Youngs? 9 MR. DANDAR: If it's not in front of you, 10 it doesn't exist, never was. 11 MR. WEINBERG: So you're not withholding 12 anything? 13 MR. DANDAR: Oh, no, no. No. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And somebody did a search 15 of your records? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. We have a file called 17 Robert Vaughn Young. That's where everything 18 is kept. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Because my recollection is 20 that the testimony indicated that the 21 communications were earlier than June 30th, 22 1997, and that there was some communication in 23 May, and so my question is are you sure? 24 MR. DANDAR: Well, here's one on 25 June 30th -- let's just say to the best of my SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 671 1 ability at this moment in time, this is it. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 3 MR. DANDAR: I mean I did the search as 4 well as my staff and this is what was there. 5 Now, I can tell you that if you just look at 6 the June 30th, '97 letter it says here's the 7 retainer check in the amount of $2,000. That 8 was the first check. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, except that 10 Mr. Young testified that a lot happened 11 between when he got paid and when he first 12 communicated with you. 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. There is nothing in 14 writing to that. There is nothing written. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Now, what about the 16 other items that we asked for with regard 17 to -- 18 MR. DANDAR: Why don't you -- yeah, go 19 down the list and I'll tell you. 20 MR. WEINBERG: -- a letter -- any 21 agreements or other communication other than 22 these letters? 23 MR. DANDAR: No, there is no written 24 agreement at all. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Copies of documents SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 672 1 regarding his two stays at Well Spring? 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, I believe we had -- 3 that was previously objected to on the grounds 4 of privilege. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, do you have 6 anything? 7 MR. DANDAR: I don't have anything. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Does Mr. Young have 9 anything? 10 MR. DANDAR: You have to ask him that. 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q. Do you have anything? 14 A. Have what? 15 Q. Do you have any documents with regard to 16 your stays at Well Spring? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you have any documents of 19 communications, addressing both of you now, with 20 Bob Minton as it relates to Mr. Young? 21 MR. DANDAR: No, nothing at all. 22 Q. Anything? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Record of payments, direct or indirect? 25 MR. DANDAR: From Minton? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 673 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 2 MR. DANDAR: Nothing. 3 Q. From Minton? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What about the records with regard to the 6 Friends of the Animals Foundation? 7 MR. DANDAR: It turns out that we were 8 able to contact, following Judge Moody's 9 recommendation this morning at the hearing, 10 Stacy Brooks and she has absolutely nothing 11 and Vaughn Young has nothing. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know -- 13 MR. HERTZBERG: He testified that she had 14 it. 15 MR. DANDAR: Well, I asked her today if 16 she had anything and she said no. 17 THE WITNESS: That wasn't my testimony, 18 Mr. Hertzbertg. I said at the last -- my last 19 knowledge, she had it when I left. 20 MR. HERTZBERG: Yeah, you said she had it 21 and now that we -- maybe we can clarify, to 22 expedite matters, where it went. 23 THE WITNESS: Right. I asked her -- I 24 asked her -- I asked her and she said she did 25 not know where they were. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 674 1 MR. DANDAR: We're stipulating he's 2 already -- continuing to be under oath? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, under oath, yes. 4 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Right. And I was 5 present at that conversation, so -- 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q. All right. I'm handing you a subpoena 8 which calls for the production of documents, 9 including the ones that we just -- 10 MR. DANDAR: Is this something new? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, it's something new 12 since this is an emergency and we've got to go 13 forward, and if I give you, Ken, a subpoena 14 for Stacy Young, will you accept that? 15 MR. DANDAR: Sure. Go ahead, just to 16 expedite everything. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 18 MR. DANDAR: Now, can you give me a copy 19 of the Jesse Prince subpoena that you served 20 on me, because I just -- Michael Hertzberg 21 mentioned that today to me and I -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: We'll make a note and get 23 it to you, yeah. 24 MR. HERTZBERG: Yeah, I may have it with 25 me. Do you want it stated on the record when SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 675 1 we're going to receive the production? 2 MR. DANDAR: No. I have to look at the 3 subpoena. 4 MR. HERTZBERG: You haven't looked at it 5 before? 6 MR. DANDAR: I thought -- well, I did and 7 I thought we responded to it. You said we 8 didn't, so I've got to see what happened. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, again, it's been a 10 while since I looked at Mr. Young's testimony 11 but I just want to make sure. Is it your 12 representation that there is no -- that you 13 never -- that there is no correspondence where 14 you sent Mr. Young or Ms. Young, in the 1997 15 time period I'm talking about, copies of a 16 proposed complaint in order to -- I mean a 17 proposed amended complaint to add parties? 18 MR. DANDAR: If it's not here -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: But I'm asking you. I see 20 that it's not there. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, then I didn't do it, 22 right. I -- I mean I'm sure not testifying 23 today but I would respond to you that if it's 24 not here, no, we didn't do that. 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 676 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. And is it your testimony, Mr. Young, that 3 you never got a proposed amended complaint to add 4 parties including Mr. Miscavige? 5 A. I testified to that effect last time. 6 MR. DANDAR: And also, you know, make sure 7 we're clear. That was a totally different 8 question. You just asked him if I sent him a 9 proposed complaint. 10 MR. WEINBERG: In the 1997 time frame. 11 MR. DANDAR: To add Miscavige? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. No, but that was a 14 different question that what you asked me. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll ask you the 16 same question. 17 MR. DANDAR: The answer is the same but, 18 you know, it's a different question. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Here's the Jesse 20 Prince subpoena. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Shall we go 23 forward? 24 MR. DANDAR: We may. Would you like some 25 water before we start? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 677 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I made that request myself 3 but I don't see it anywhere. Do you? 4 THE WITNESS: Only one person brought 5 water. 6 MR. DANDAR: We don't want to share from 7 that bottle. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Young, did you review 10 Mr. Dandar's answers to interrogatories with regard 11 to what it is that you were supposed to testify 12 about? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When did you review that? 15 A. Today. 16 Q. Did you help him prepare it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Let me mark as an exhibit, as the next 19 exhibit, a fax from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Hanes which 20 includes the interrogatory response and all those 21 letters that we've just been talking about as the 22 next exhibit. Okay? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Do we know -- 24 MR. HANES: Can we note that there is 25 some error on the fax document that would SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 678 1 indicate an inaccurate date and time? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 3 MR. DANDAR: What's wrong with it? 4 MR. WEINBERG: What's wrong with it? 5 MR. HANES: You seemed to have signed it 6 yesterday, according to the -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I correct the notary as 8 well. It's not the 19th I signed this. I 9 signed this today, the 20th of January, 2000. 10 I wonder what else has the wrong date on it? 11 MR. WEINBERG: We're not going to have 12 many exhibits today. I'll just call it 13 Defendant's Exhibit A. 14 (Defendant's Exhibit A was marked for 15 identification.) 16 MR. DANDAR: So even though we were 17 talking a while, let's just say we started at 18 what, 10 to 4:00? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. No, how about now? 20 I mean we're starting now. 21 MR. DANDAR: Want to start now? Okay. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Four o'clock. 3:58 is 23 what my clock says. 24 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 679 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. Now, what is it, as you understand it, 3 Mr. Young, that you are being called -- well, first 4 of all, are you being called as an expert in 5 anything? 6 A. In this case, yes. 7 Q. And what is that, expert in what? 8 A. My familiarity with command lines, how the 9 Sea Organization works, the religious presentation 10 of Scientology. 11 Q. Anything else? 12 A. Those are pretty big subjects. I'm sure 13 there are subjects in there that will come out but 14 that's -- 15 Q. Well, can you think of any subjects? 16 A. Well, as these come up within them, but 17 that's the primary subjects. 18 Q. Well, when you say religious presentation 19 of Scientology, what are you talking about, 20 general, what are we talking about? Religious 21 presentation of Scientology you're being called as 22 an expert in, so can you explain that field to me? 23 A. In public relations, how you present a 24 subject to various publics so that they -- you 25 create an image, which is pretty much what public SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 680 1 relations is about, as in like advertising, and in 2 this subject of how the Church of Scientology 3 presented itself as a church and as a religion. 4 Q. Well, are you testifying that Scientology 5 is not a religion, is that going to be your 6 testimony? 7 A. No. I was testifying as to how they 8 presented the image. 9 Q. Yeah, but I'm asking you, are -- is it -- 10 are you being called to testify that Scientology is 11 not a religion? 12 A. I was not called to testify on that 13 specific point. 14 Q. Right. Well, is it your belief that 15 Scientology is a religion? 16 A. No, I don't believe it is a religion. 17 Q. Now, are you being called to testify that 18 Scientology is not entitled to a tax exempt status 19 by the IRS, are you being called to testify as to 20 that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Well, this area, religious presentation of 23 Scientology, is it that you're just testifying 24 about how Scientology presents itself to the world, 25 is that what your testimony is going to be about? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 681 1 A. That would be part of it. 2 Q. For what purpose would you be testifying 3 that? 4 A. Well, I was asked if I had knowledge of 5 that and I do have knowledge of that. I am being 6 asked my experience and opinion on that subject. 7 I'm not simply volunteering it, I have been asked 8 and that's what I am presenting. 9 Q. Your opinion on the subject of how 10 Scientology presents itself to the world? 11 A. And whether or not that is accurate. 12 Q. And what relation does that have with any 13 issue in this case as far as you know? 14 MR. DANDAR: I will object to the extent 15 that calls for him to express a legal opinion, 16 which I think it does, but if he can answer 17 the question, fine. 18 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 19 A. I was just about to say I'm not the one to 20 judge that. I'm only responding to -- 21 Q. No, no, but I'm asking you. What -- 22 you're sitting here and you're going to, tomorrow 23 or whenever it is, you're going to testify as to -- 24 and we'll get into the opinions in a minute -- 25 testify as to how Scientology presents itself to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 682 1 the world and I'm asking do you have any 2 understanding of how that would relate to a 3 wrongful death case? 4 A. Well, I did manage while I was here in 5 Tampa, I believe it was yesterday, to see something 6 that was filed by your client that -- and you'll 7 have to pardon my legal language, I'm not an 8 attorney on this, but trying to claim First 9 Amendment privileges with regard to this case by 10 claiming that it was a valid religion. To that 11 degree, I suppose then at that point it does become 12 a serious religious issue whether or not it would 13 be a valid religion, one that is held sincerely by 14 the organization. 15 Q. So you're being asked to testify that in 16 your opinion it is not a valid religion, is that 17 your understanding? 18 A. That is not the entirety of my testimony. 19 Q. But is that part of your testimony? 20 A. That would be part of it. 21 Q. Well, in the interrogatory answers that 22 we've marked as Exhibit A, under the area of 23 subject matter on which Vaughn Young will testify 24 it says the organization and command lines of 25 Scientology, and then it says the issue of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 683 1 religiosity in Scientology. Where does that fit 2 into these three things that you told me about, the 3 issue of religiosity in Scientology, what's that? 4 A. I said the presentation of the religious 5 image. 6 Q. Okay. In English, does the issue of 7 religiosity of Scientology, does that relate to 8 the -- to your contention that it's not a religion 9 or not a valid religion? 10 A. Not validly presented is what I'm doing. 11 The image that I and others presented was not 12 sincerely held within the organization and was 13 pretty much like a Hollywood front for like a 14 movie. You get the front that is put up and then 15 you step behind it, there is other actions that are 16 being taken so that it's not being actually 17 sincerely presented. 18 Q. So are you testifying that the millions of 19 people that are not staff members in Scientology 20 that practice Scientology, is it your testimony 21 that they are practicing a religion that is not a 22 valid religion, is that what your testimony is? 23 A. Well, first of all, sir, I would seriously 24 question the millions. There is not millions. 25 There never was millions. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 684 1 Q. How many are there? 2 A. I would estimate in the United States, the 3 best count, there is probably around less than 4 100,000 active. 5 Q. Okay. And how many in the rest of the 6 world? 7 A. Oh, if we're lucky, maybe 25,000, 30,000. 8 Q. So the 125,000, according to you, people 9 that are members of the public that believe in 10 Scientology, is it your -- is it your testimony 11 that they are practicing a religion that is not 12 valid, is that what you're here to testify about? 13 A. No, that's not what I said. 14 Q. Well, do you believe that there are people 15 in -- that there are at least 125,000 people in the 16 world that believe in what Scientology is about? 17 A. That's a different -- 18 Q. I'm asking you. 19 A. Could you ask that one again because we 20 just shifted subjects, if you could ask that again? 21 Q. I think she could probably read that to 22 you. 23 (The question was read by the reporter.) 24 A. That would be a fair characterization, 25 what Scientology is about. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 685 1 Q. That there are -- that there are at least 2 100,000 people in the world, if your numbers are 3 right, that believe that Scientology is a religion? 4 A. No, I wouldn't believe that. In fact, 5 that's contrary to my own experiences. Most people 6 in there do not consider it to be a religion. 7 Q. And they consider it to be what? 8 A. Standard tech, Hubbard, ways to improve 9 your life, an applied philosophy, business 10 techniques. That's what I'll be able to testify, 11 that most of them really don't, and there is, in 12 fact, different opinions about that within the 13 organization, in the public. 14 Q. That most of the people in the public 15 don't believe that it's a religion? 16 A. I would subscribe to that, yes. 17 Q. All right. And so that's what you're 18 going to testify about when you testify? 19 A. That would be one of the topics that I 20 would -- 21 Q. And that's based on what work that you 22 have done in the last ten years in dealing with 23 people that are Scientologists? 24 A. That comes from since 1968, my experience 25 with the organization -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 686 1 Q. No. My question was the last ten years. 2 A. Talking to people, what I'm reading and 3 what I'm finding out. 4 Q. Well, are you doing surveys of public 5 members of Scientology around the world in the last 6 ten years? 7 A. No. It's pretty much the same basis on 8 which I based my answers when you asked me in the 9 last deposition my opinions of Scientology and 10 Scientologists, and if you accepted my basis for 11 those, those answers, it would be the same basis. 12 Q. Believe me, I haven't accepted one basis 13 that has come out of your mouth with regard to 14 Scientology. 15 MR. DANDAR: Excuse me. Excuse me. 16 A. You asked me regarding psychiatry. 17 MR. DANDAR: That's argumentative. Let's 18 not -- 19 Q. Psychiatry is a different story. 20 MR. DANDAR: Let's try to keep to the 21 questions only, please. 22 Q. Now, so that your being called as an 23 expert to testify generally about your familiarity 24 with the command lines, what do you mean by that? 25 A. How different parts of the -- if I just SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 687 1 may use Scientology in general, how they have 2 communicated with each other over the decades, 3 pretty much how it operates by the sending of 4 orders, reports, distribution of material, 5 et cetera. 6 Q. And that has what to do with any issue in 7 this case, as far as you know? 8 A. Well, it would have to do with how Flag 9 Service Organization, for example, connects back 10 into other organizations that are senior to it. 11 Q. Any particular issue in this case that the 12 command lines of Scientology that you supposedly 13 have expertise in has to do with in this case? 14 A. Well, that actually being able to show 15 that there is really no corporate integrity when it 16 comes to within Scientology, that there is another 17 form of control that is used within the 18 organization that is not immediately perceptible to 19 the general public, to the media, or has even been 20 perceptible to the courts, in my opinion. 21 Q. Or the IRS, right? 22 A. Or the IRS. 23 Q. I mean you realize the IRS investigated, 24 and you were part of that investigation, 25 Scientology for over a decade, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 688 1 A. No, I was not part of that investigation. 2 Q. You had nothing to do with the dealings 3 with the IRS, is that right, while you were in 4 Scientology, while you were on staff? 5 A. No, I did not meet with anybody in the 6 IRS. 7 Q. You understand that the IRS investigated 8 the tax exempt issue for over a decade? 9 A. I understand that they investigated it. 10 Q. Yeah. You know that they did a full-blown 11 audit of all of the organizations and corporations 12 of Scientology, you understand that, don't you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you understand at the conclusion of 15 that that they determined that the various 16 Scientology churches and corporations were entitled 17 to tax exempt religious status, you understand 18 that, don't you? 19 A. That was their ruling. 20 Q. And you understand that they looked at 21 issues like whether or not the Sea Organization, in 22 fact, was as you are about to say, really controls 23 Scientology as opposed to the corporate structure, 24 right, you understand they looked at that issue? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 689 1 Q. And you know that they determined that it 2 did not, don't you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. So you're here today or tomorrow to 5 basically say that the IRS got it wrong? 6 A. Well, they were defrauded, but I'm not 7 here for the IRS part. 8 Q. No, you just want to undo what was done 9 seven years ago. 10 A. No. I did not ever say that and I would 11 resent the accusation I'm trying to do that. I'm 12 here on behalf of Mr. Dandar. 13 Q. Now, you said that there is no corporate 14 integrity and that really the -- I take it by that 15 you mean that the organization, the various 16 corporations that were -- well, strike that. 17 In 1982 there was a major reorganization 18 of the corporate structure in Scientology, correct? 19 A. It actually started in '81. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. In that period. 22 Q. RTC was created, CSI was created, you 23 know, over a period of time all the churches around 24 the world were reincorporated or incorporated, I 25 mean all that happened, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 690 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. Now, do I understand you to 3 say that it is your testimony that that corporate 4 reorganization was in name only and didn't exist in 5 practice, is that what you're saying? 6 A. That's -- I can't immediately assent to 7 that because that's a very large, difficult 8 question. 9 Q. Well, explain what it is generally that 10 your position is. We had this -- the church had 11 this corporate reorganization beginning in 1981 in 12 which at the end of the process you had the RTC 13 that had its -- you know, had its function as the 14 protector of the integrity of Scientology or the 15 purity of Scientology, had SCI that was set up, you 16 know, as the mother church, you had all these other 17 organizations that were incorporated, churches 18 under it, you had licensing agreements, you know, 19 where the marks were licensed by RTC to CSI and 20 then sublicensed from CSI to the various churches, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you had a whole corporate structure 24 that was set up with a, you know, with trustees, 25 directors, officers in all of these organizations, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 691 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. All right. Now, is it your testimony that 4 that is not, in fact, how Scientology in practice 5 was run? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. Okay. Now, who then -- what is your 8 testimony as to what organization or people were 9 running Scientology as opposed to the -- to what 10 the IRS found in 1993 was this corporate structure? 11 A. Pretty much runs through Sea Organization 12 channels between the organizations. 13 Q. What's that mean? 14 A. That there is a Sea Organization structure 15 that is the actual nexus that, like the nervous 16 system of the body connecting different organs, are 17 the ones that actually commands, controls and runs 18 this from the very top echelon to as low as it 19 really wants to go within the Scientology structure 20 and that this pierces any cooperate veil that may 21 be there so that Sea Organization actions can be 22 directed down into an organization from the very 23 top to the bottom with regard to corporate 24 integrity. 25 Q. And the -- and that has what relevance as SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 692 1 far as you understand it, to any issue in this Lisa 2 McPherson case? 3 A. Well, right now, with Mr. Miscavige added 4 as a defendant, it has a very key issue in showing 5 that the Sea Organization is actually the 6 controlling force within Scientology. 7 Q. The Sea Organization is a corporation? 8 A. No. 9 Q. The Sea Organization is an entity? 10 A. It's a very difficult thing to describe. 11 Q. I'm just asking you. The Sea Organization 12 is an entity? 13 A. Yes, I would say it's an entity. 14 Q. And what kind of entity is it? 15 A. It's a paramilitary organization 16 consisting of highly dedicated individuals that are 17 willing to execute commands and get things done. 18 Q. Sort of like the Jesuits? 19 A. No. I can't speak to that because I'm not 20 familiar with Jesuits. 21 Q. Paramilitary, you keep -- you know, all of 22 your affidavits over the years is cluttered with 23 references like that. What do you mean 24 paramilitary? 25 A. It has, of course, on the outside, the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 693 1 military uniforms, the demeanor, the language, but 2 inside there is a military structure, the 3 vocabulary, people muster in the mornings in ranks. 4 There are people with -- that you address officers 5 by sir. Internally this is carried out. It's not 6 merely just putting on a uniform. It is executed. 7 The command lines are executed in a military 8 fashion. In fact, to understand how it operates, 9 you would use a military model rather than even a 10 corporate model. 11 Q. And what relevance does that have to 12 anything? 13 A. This is how it penetrates the various 14 corporations around the world. 15 Q. Now, it's your position that whatever 16 L. Ron Hubbard has written is the gospel and is 17 scripture in Scientology, is that your position? 18 A. No, I don't consider it scripture. 19 Q. Well, is it your testimony that -- I 20 thought I read it in your -- one of your 21 affidavits, that whatever Mr. Hubbard wrote is part 22 of the scripture of Scientology. 23 A. I've never used the word scripture. 24 Q. And that it can't be changed, it has to be 25 relied on by Scientologists. Isn't that your SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 694 1 testimony? 2 A. No. You're altering my testimony. 3 Q. Well, what is your testimony? 4 A. Do you have a question? 5 Q. Yeah. What is your testimony with regard 6 to the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, what 7 significance do they have in this religion? 8 A. Well, first of all, I can't respond to the 9 religion part, so if you can give me a different 10 question, I can answer it. 11 Q. That's my question. What part does the 12 writings of L. Ron Hubbard have with regard to the 13 religion of Scientology? 14 A. Very little. Because I don't consider it 15 a religion, that's sort of a loaded question. 16 Q. Well, what is the significance of the 17 writings of L. Ron Hubbard in Scientology? 18 A. He's considered source and founder. 19 Q. Which means what, source? 20 A. That he was the one that originated it and 21 came up with the idea. 22 Q. That his word is the gospel, is that what 23 source means? 24 A. No. Bill Gates is the source of Microsoft 25 but I would hardly consider him gospel. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 695 1 Q. Now, in your affidavit that was -- well, 2 Scientologists refer to the writings of L. Ron 3 Hubbard as scripture, don't they? 4 A. No. 5 Q. They don't? 6 A. No. 7 Q. So you've never heard, in the 21 years 8 that you were in Scientology, you never heard 9 anybody in Scientology refer to the writings of L. 10 Ron Hubbard as scripture? 11 A. The only ones who called it scripture were 12 the PRs and the people creating the image. I never 13 once heard a Scientologist internally call it 14 scripture, never once in my 21 years. 15 Q. All right. And Scientologists don't have 16 legitimate beliefs in various things that have been 17 written by L. Ron Hubbard then? 18 A. They might or they might not. I can't 19 speak for individual Scientologists. 20 Q. You didn't when you were a Scientologist? 21 A. Didn't what? 22 Q. You never believed in thetan, you never 23 believed anything in the 21 years that you were in 24 Scientology? 25 A. No, I had a number of beliefs. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 696 1 Q. Well, what were the beliefs that you had 2 when you were in Scientology? 3 A. It evolved. It changed. I mean that's -- 4 Q. How did it start out, what did you 5 believe? 6 A. Well, it started out, I -- it started out 7 with my interest in -- as a philosophy, and I was 8 interested in a resolution of the mind/body problem 9 and I thought Hubbard had a very interesting 10 approach by taking a -- sorry, it's a technical 11 term -- solipsistic attitude, which means that the 12 individual starts as the center of the belief 13 system rather a Cartesian or a Kantian or other 14 approach. So I wanted to see if by starting with 15 the individual as the center and moving out, you 16 could resolve certain philosophical problems. 17 Q. And did you have sincere beliefs when you 18 were a Scientologist? 19 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 20 A. I have difficulty with that question, 21 sincere beliefs. 22 Q. All right. Now, religious presentation of 23 Scientology, what qualifies you as an expert in 24 being able to discuss in front of a jury the issue 25 of religiosity in Scientology, what are your expert SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 697 1 qualifications? 2 A. Well, starting with my own personal 3 experiences of doing it, I suppose. 4 Q. In doing what? 5 A. Creating a religious image. 6 Q. Well, did you -- have you ever been 7 qualified as an expert in the religiosity of 8 Scientology, ever qualified as an expert? 9 A. I don't believe so. 10 Q. Has any judge ever considered whether or 11 not you were an expert with regard to religiosity 12 in Scientology, any judge ever considered that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. So no judge has rejected you as an expert 15 then? 16 A. No. 17 MR. DANDAR: I think that no meant 18 correct. 19 Q. Has any lawyer ever offered you to a 20 judge as an expert in anything? 21 A. I'm sorry. I lost the question because he 22 was speaking. 23 Q. Okay. Has any judge ever offered you as 24 an expert -- has any lawyer -- strike that. New 25 question. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 698 1 Has any lawyer ever offered you as an 2 expert in anything to a court? 3 A. I've never -- the only time I testified in 4 court was in the FACT Net case, so I'm sorry, I'm 5 sort of losing -- 6 Q. In that case you testified as a fact 7 witness, didn't you? 8 A. No. I testified both as an expert and as 9 a fact witness. 10 Q. Let me show you the copy of the 11 transcript, reporter's transcript. This is in the 12 motion for a preliminary injunction, September 13 11th, 1995. You were called by Mr. Kelley, is that 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. This is in front of Judge Cane. Is 17 that who the judge was? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Kelley: The defendant will call the 20 first witness, Robert Vaughn Young. 21 The Court: Mr. Young. 22 Mr. Cooley -- that was the Scientology 23 lawyer, right? 24 A. He was, yes. 25 Q. May I inquire whether Mr. Young is being SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 699 1 called as a fact witness or expert witness? 2 Mr. Kelley: As far as I know, Your Honor, 3 he is being called as a fact witness. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. So you accept that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, what is the -- okay. So what is the 8 basis for you being an expert in the religiosity of 9 Scientology? You've told us 21 years of PR in 10 Scientology. What else? 11 A. Well, I was trained specifically for the 12 purpose of presenting religious image to the 13 public. 14 Q. Trained by whom? 15 A. By the organization. 16 Q. Well, what -- you took a course in it? 17 A. There were courses, yes. 18 Q. What courses did you take -- 19 A. The public -- 20 Q. -- in presenting the image? 21 A. Such as the public relations course. 22 Q. Well, what is that course? Who taught the 23 course? 24 A. That was taught by Department 20. 25 Q. When did you take the course? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 700 1 A. I first took it in 1971, when the 2 religious image campaign was first really being 3 geared up, and then I took it again -- took the 4 expanded, it had been expanded and I took it again 5 in I believe it was 1975 at St. Hill. 6 Q. What did you call the course, public 7 relations course? 8 A. Public relations course. 9 Q. How long did the course take? 10 A. Couple of months. 11 Q. So do you read scripture? 12 A. No, you read policies and whatever else is 13 relevant on the checklist, in the check sheet. 14 Q. All right. So you took a public relations 15 course twice. What else -- what other training did 16 you have that would qualify you for the first time, 17 by the way, as an expert in religiosity of 18 Scientology? 19 A. Well, it was also the experience since the 20 organization put me forward as their spokesman on a 21 number of occasions and I was a representative for 22 the organization, such as in 1977 when I was the 23 national spokesman and I can be found in such 24 publications as the New York Times, so that I -- 25 you know, an hour on the Tom Snyder Show, one hour SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 701 1 after Johnny Carson. 2 Q. But you're not suggesting that being on 3 the Tom Snyder show would qualify you as an expert 4 on the religiosity of Scientology, are you? 5 A. Well, to the degree the organization has 6 asked me to operate on their behalf, I'm most 7 intimately familiar with how that is done, 8 especially since I was their representative. 9 Q. Well, what else qualifies you? Okay. The 10 Tom Snyder Show, these two public relation courses, 11 but what else qualifies you as an expert on the 12 religiosity according to these interrogatories, the 13 religiosity in Scientology, issue of religiosity in 14 Scientology? 15 A. Isn't that the whole purpose of my long 16 deposition? 17 Q. I'm asking you. What else qualifies you? 18 A. Well, there is 21 years. Do we want to 19 spend our two hours now in covering the 21 years 20 what I did? I'm willing. 21 Q. You said 21 years, you said two courses in 22 public relations, you said the Tom Snyder Show. 23 Was there something else? 24 A. Well, I think 21 years counts for a lot. 25 If you want to go into all that I did and studied SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 702 1 and trained and the people that I trained -- I mean 2 I even -- Mr. Rinder is sitting here at the table. 3 There was a time when I went down to Clearwater and 4 I even instructed Mr. Rinder on things to do with 5 regard to Clearwater. 6 Q. Are you an expert in the tech? 7 A. The Red on White? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. That's what I consider the tech. On the 10 Red on White, no, I would not consider -- count 11 myself nor testify as an expert. 12 Q. All right. And the Red on White is the -- 13 is what the Scientologists, people that believe in 14 Scientology, would look to first, really, or almost 15 first, with regard to issues concerning their 16 religion, wouldn't they, their beliefs? 17 A. No. No. 18 Q. No? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Well, what is the Red on White? 21 A. The Red on White -- we've covered this 22 before. There is Red on White and basically Green 23 on White, and there is other color combinations, 24 but those two are the primary ones. 25 Q. Yeah, and the Red on White -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 703 1 A. Those are combined. Every course that you 2 take is a combination of Red on White and Green on 3 White, combination of bulletins and policies. You 4 never -- I have never seen one course -- 5 Q. Okay. The HCL bulletins, which is what 6 you're calling the Red on White, right? 7 A. Or the bulletins. 8 Q. Or the bulletins, the Red Volumes, those 9 are the volumes that deal with auditing and 10 training, that's the spiritual or ecclesiastical 11 part of Scientology, correct? 12 A. Well, the spiritual and ecclesiastical, 13 that's how the organization characterizes it. 14 Q. But am I right? 15 A. No. 16 Q. These volumes have to do with some of the 17 most fundamental what Scientologists would 18 characterize as religious practices in Scientology, 19 auditing and training, correct, that's what the Red 20 on White has to do with? 21 A. Well, if you want me to try to turn it 22 into a religion, I can't do that, sir. 23 Q. Is that right? Am I right? 24 A. I cannot respond yes to that question. 25 Q. I recognize that you do not agree with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 704 1 Mr. Rinder in what he believes, but what I'm asking 2 you is Mr. Rinder and other people like Mr. Rinder 3 look to the Red on White Volumes as the volumes 4 that discuss some of -- two of the most fundamental 5 spiritual and religious parts of Scientology, which 6 is auditing and training, correct, that's what he 7 looks to? 8 A. Mr. Rinder, no; but as far as spiritual, 9 no; auditing and training, yes. And if you -- I 10 will even give you some concessions if you will. 11 That is the core where Mr. Hubbard discusses the 12 individual, the nature of the individual, how the 13 individual interacts with himself, and that is the 14 core, that is correct, that is the core of 15 Scientology. 16 Q. Of the belief system in Scientology, isn't 17 it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Yes. Now, you sit here and say it's not a 20 religion and Mr. Rinder and many other people in 21 the world will say it is a religion because I 22 believe in it, correct? 23 A. Mr. Rinder is paid to do that the way I 24 was paid to do it. 25 Q. Well, there are people that are publics, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 705 1 like Lisa McPherson, that practiced Scientology and 2 practice it as their religion, aren't there? 3 A. There are some. 4 Q. Okay. And those people that practice 5 Scientology as their religion would look at the HCO 6 bulletins, the Red Volumes, as the volumes that 7 would set forth the spiritual and ecclesiastical 8 part of Scientology, training and auditing? 9 A. I never once heard one person ever say the 10 word ecclesiastical in training. 11 Q. The Green Volumes, which are the HCO 12 policy letters, that has to do with the 13 administration of the church, policies with regard 14 to the administration of the church, right? 15 A. No, not entirely. 16 Q. Well, what's it have, what do the Green 17 Volumes have to do with? 18 A. It does include administration but it also 19 includes social matters. There is a number of 20 policy letters where he talks about -- I don't want 21 to get into Scientology terminology but -- 22 Q. Why? You're an expert. Why not get into 23 the Scientology -- 24 A. Okay. Third dynamic matters, third 25 dynamic issues are covered on Green on White and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 706 1 he's very specific that Red on White deals with 2 first dynamic issues, although there is a lot in 3 the Red Volumes that deal with third dynamic 4 issues. 5 Q. Now, are you an expert on the HCO policy 6 letters, the Green Volumes, are you an expert in 7 that? 8 A. I wouldn't say I'm an expert on policy 9 letters and I never claimed to be policy letters. 10 I just claimed to be an expert as I described it. 11 Q. Well, do you know what the LRH executive 12 directives are? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What are those? 15 A. Those are Blue on White. They came 16 directly from Hubbard and dealt with a variety of 17 topics. 18 Q. Including technical topics? 19 A. Not exactly. It was more when he would 20 announce like a technical breakthrough and here's 21 what we're going to do, we're going to be setting 22 up this, or it might be just simply like he would 23 do a journal and he would take an overview on 24 things. It was a -- it was sort of a mishmash of 25 topics that he did with his executive directives. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 707 1 Q. Well, are you an expert in the LRH 2 executive directives? 3 A. Well, all I can say is I've read them all. 4 Q. Well, what have you read in Scientology? 5 A. That's -- I would dare say tens of 6 thousands of pages. 7 Q. Have you read all the Red Volumes? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you read all the Green Volumes? 10 A. Most of the Green Volumes. 11 Q. Have you listened to the 3,000 taped 12 lectures by Hubbard? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you looked at the ones that have been 15 transcribed? 16 A. Many of them, hundreds of them. 17 Q. Have you watched the films? 18 A. I've watched a lot of films. 19 Q. Have you read all the books? 20 A. I may have read all the basic books. 21 Q. Well, Scientologists would consider as 22 scripture, as the documents that contain the -- 23 what the religion is about to include in 24 Scientology the books, like Dianetics, that were 25 written by L. Ron Hubbard, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 708 1 A. Again, I've never heard once a 2 Scientologist use the word scripture, and you've 3 loaded my -- the question -- 4 Q. Well, what do Scientologists consider 5 people that believe, people that believe in 6 Scientology as their religion, what do they -- how 7 would you describe as an expert what they consider 8 the books like Dianetics? 9 A. They would consider that Mr. Hubbard has 10 made a number of breakthroughs that they consider 11 to be valued, valuable. You're not too long in 12 there before you learn of something called standard 13 tech and that there is one precise way to do 14 something. You come to learn that the -- there is 15 various gradients of learning, that the books are 16 one part of it, then the courses and the policies 17 and the bulletins are another part of it, and then 18 you -- then you just take it from there. But they 19 consider -- I'm not denying Mr. Hubbard is 20 considered in high esteem by a great many 21 Scientologists. That is not -- I would never 22 challenge that. But they -- his esteem is held as 23 a person who made a number of breakthroughs pretty 24 much the way Freud had made breakthroughs. 25 Q. And that's your opinion? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 709 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, are you -- were you trained as a 3 classed auditor? 4 A. I was trained as a dianetic auditor, which 5 is a class. 6 Q. Which is -- 7 A. It's on the chart. 8 Q. Well, what course did you take -- it's on 9 the charts? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What's a classed auditor? 12 A. In my definition right now, it would be 13 one of the persons on the gradation chart who 14 received a certificate for completion of the 15 course. 16 Q. And you weren't trained to do any of that, 17 were you? 18 A. I was trained as a Hubbard dianetic 19 auditor and received my certificate and I audited 20 professionally as one. 21 Q. You didn't do -- you didn't take the 22 student hat, correct? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Professional TR course? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 710 1 Q. Did you take the academy level courses? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The minister's course? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were you trained to do class zero to four? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Were you trained in staff status one? 8 A. Excuse me a second. Are we going to get 9 water pretty soon or some way to -- we'll go on but 10 if there is some way we could just take a break and 11 I go find water. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: There is a water 13 fountain, sir. 14 Q. There is a water fountain right there. 15 A. Could I just get a drink real fast? 16 (Recess from 4:37 until 4:39 p.m.) 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. What are the qualifications and training 19 to be a course supervisor? Are you trained in 20 that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What are the qualifications and training 23 to be a staff member, are you trained in that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were you an executive? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 711 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In any organization? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What? 5 A. I was an executive in Department 20, 6 started in 1971. 7 Q. What was your position? 8 A. I was an assistant guardian for public 9 relations. 10 Q. How long were you in that position? 11 A. About two and a half years. 12 Q. Did you have any juniors? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Pretty low on the totem pole? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Well, what other executive positions did 17 you have other than assistant guardian for public 18 relations? 19 A. For a while I was the PR establishment 20 officer for Department 20, US. 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. That was '73, 1973. 23 Q. Did you have any juniors in that? 24 A. The entire bureau, the entire public 25 relations bureau was my -- because I was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 712 1 responsible for their establishment, their training 2 and their hatting and et cetera. 3 Q. And that was an executive position -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- that you had? What do you -- how do 6 you describe an executive position as opposed to a 7 staff position? 8 A. Well, all executives are staff. It's not 9 a comparison. 10 Q. What's an executive position in 11 Scientology? 12 A. I'd say an executive position would be any 13 department head on up would be -- qualify for an 14 executive position. 15 Q. What else? What other executive positions 16 did you have? 17 A. Then in 1982 I was director of public 18 affairs for Author Services, Inc. 19 Q. Nineteen what? 20 A. 1982. 21 Q. Okay. Anything else? 22 A. That was it. 23 Q. Were you ever a director? 24 A. Yes, I just named those for you. 25 Q. So those are direct -- so that's what you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 713 1 -- those are director positions? Were you ever a 2 director of one of the corporations? 3 A. Oh, a director of a corporation. No. 4 Q. Were you an officer of a corporation? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Were you a commanding officer of an 7 organization? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Were you on the watch dog committee? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Were you an executive in the CMO, 12 International? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Ever held a position in church management? 15 A. That's kind of a yes and no since we ran 16 church management but we were not part of church 17 management. That's where we get into the Sea Org. 18 Q. Ever on the Flagship Apollo? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Ever on staff at FSO? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, what -- is there -- what you're being 23 called for, would you describe this as some 24 recognized field of expertise? 25 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 714 1 Q. Well, I mean if you were a, for example, 2 an expert here to discuss eye fluid or vitreous 3 fluid, as we have other people that profess to be 4 in this case, there are other people in the world 5 that are -- that have written, testified about, 6 done studies with regard to eye fluid and there is 7 a field of study or expertise with regard to this 8 vitreous fluid. So my question is what field of 9 expertise are you in? 10 A. I can't respond to your question because I 11 really don't understand field. All I know is what 12 I can testify about and I can't compare myself 13 to -- 14 Q. Well, who else in the world has ever, as 15 far as you know, written or testified about what it 16 is that you're coming here to testify about? 17 A. Well, it's appeared in various ways. I 18 know Mr. Prince has spoken a great deal about 19 command channels, but I don't know if he's been 20 described in exactly the language that mine has 21 been put down, so I can't respond in that way. 22 Q. Fortunately, we're in the room with two of 23 the people in the world that have testified or 24 written about this subject. Other than Mr. Prince, 25 is there someone else in the world that has -- that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 715 1 you know of that has written about or testified 2 about this field of expertise that you are being 3 called to testify about today? 4 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike gratuitous 5 comments. Go ahead. 6 A. I don't -- I really don't understand the 7 way that you're wording the question because we go 8 back to this thing about expert fields. All I can 9 say is I can tell you and you certainly know who 10 has testified as experts in Scientology. 11 Q. No, no, no. You're under oath and -- 12 A. That doesn't mean I understand the 13 question. 14 Q. Well, is there anybody that you know that 15 has ever been qualified by a judge anywhere in the 16 world on the issue of the religiosity of 17 Scientology? 18 A. I don't know because I don't know every 19 case in the world -- 20 Q. I'm just asking if you know. Is there 21 anybody? 22 A. I know that people who have been qualified 23 to testify about Scientology and who have presented 24 evidence, whether or not that got accepted 25 somewhere else, I don't know. I know like Stacy SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 716 1 Brooks Young -- 2 Q. Your ex-wife you're talking about. 3 A. She certainly testified. There is other 4 people that have presented testimony. Whether or 5 not -- 6 Q. Just give me the names. 7 A. There was a gentleman who testified in the 8 FACT Net case in Denver. I don't remember his 9 name. I don't remember if he came up as a fact 10 witness or an expert witness but he testified prior 11 to me. I don't -- you know, I just don't pay 12 attention to such matters. There might have been 13 people in England. There could have been people in 14 Copenhagen, Germany, I don't know. 15 Q. Well, you're being offered as an expert on 16 the religiosity of Scientology, among other things, 17 correct? 18 A. In the -- not as an expert on experts. 19 Q. You're being offered as an expert in this, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. Yes. 22 Q. And what I'm trying to find out is who 23 else in the world are you aware of or have you 24 relied on in reaching these opinions on the same 25 issue? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 717 1 A. Well, that's now a different question than 2 before. Who else have I relied upon -- 3 Q. Just answer my question, please, okay? 4 A. Okay. I just wanted to clarify it's a 5 different question. Who else have I relied upon? 6 I certainly have spoken with Mr. Prince, I've 7 certainly spoken with Stacy Brooks Young. In my 8 own way, Mr. Wollersheim had his certain level of 9 expertise just from his years of litigation with 10 the organization. I learned some things from him. 11 Q. Who else? 12 A. There is a number of people that I've 13 learned things from. 14 Q. Can you give us the names, please? 15 A. Well, such as John Atak. 16 Q. Who is that? 17 A. He's an author, wrote a book called Piece 18 of Blue Sky. I learned a lot from that book and 19 from speaking with him. 20 Q. When did he write that book? 21 A. Oh, I don't know. I first found it in 22 nineteen -- circa 1991, I guess. I don't know when 23 it was published. 24 Q. So you saw it after you left the Church of 25 Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 718 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who else? 3 A. Peoples whose books I've read that I 4 haven't spoken with. 5 Q. Like what? I'm asking what are you 6 relying on? 7 A. Well, okay. Well, as far as rely upon, 8 that's -- you said spoken with. What I rely upon 9 is, one, my own experience and the documents of the 10 organization. I don't rely upon the opinions of 11 others. If Mr. Atak, for example, had information 12 that I go, oh, that's interesting and I can track 13 it down, then I would, but in the end, all I rely 14 upon that I would testify would be either 15 percipient knowledge or something that I could 16 stand by from a document from the organization, but 17 I'm not going to rely upon in my testimony upon the 18 opinions or experiences of another. They can only 19 guide me to something -- 20 Q. Since you left the church in whenever it 21 was, 1989, you have no percipient knowledge of what 22 has gone on in the Church of Scientology, is that 23 correct? 24 A. No, that's not true. 25 Q. Oh, so what, have you been a fly on the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 719 1 wall there, or what? 2 A. No. 3 Q. So have you been -- have you participated 4 in Scientology courses since 1989? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you done auditing since 1989? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you been on staff since 1989? 9 A. No. 10 Q. So have you -- what have you done since 11 1989 that would make you a percipient witness of 12 what is occurring in Scientology? 13 A. Well, first of all, you can read their own 14 publications, that's one of the best ways, because 15 that's how the organization reaches its own 16 membership, how the membership comes to know what's 17 going on in the -- 18 Q. So you read their publications. Okay. 19 Anything else? 20 A. Read the publications, and since 1989 have 21 visited, you know, dropped in on a few 22 organizations and chatted with Scientologists. 23 Q. Chatted with Scientologists? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And that has -- anything else? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 720 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, other than Mr. Prince, your ex-wife, 3 Larry Wollersheim, can you think of anyone else in 4 the world that you would consider to be an expert 5 in these matters that Mr. Dandar says that you are 6 going to testify about? 7 A. That I could call forward right now? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I can't think of anybody else right now. 10 Q. Has anybody -- has anybody published on 11 the issue of religiosity in Scientology that you 12 can refer us to? 13 A. I think Mr. Steve Kent up in Canada did 14 some papers on it. 15 Q. Who is Steve Kent? 16 A. He's a scholar with a university up in 17 Canada. I can't remember it but Mr. Rinder has got 18 his phone number, home address and everything I'm 19 sure. 20 Q. And what -- and what's the story on Steve 21 Kent? I mean have you read his works? 22 A. I've seen some of the things he's written. 23 He -- 24 Q. I didn't ask you whether you saw it. Have 25 you read and studied his work, if there is such a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 721 1 thing? 2 A. All I can say is I have read material from 3 him. I don't know if it is the works, as you put 4 it. I don't know if that is the entirety but I've 5 read some papers. 6 Q. What is it? 7 A. It's regarding various aspects of 8 Scientology. This was a couple of years ago. 9 Q. And what's his thesis? 10 A. Well, basically, he approaches it from an 11 academic scholarly approach, pretty much like a 12 social scientist would approach it, as an 13 academician might approach it, as opposed to John 14 Atak approaches it or Russell Miller approaches it 15 or the New York Times might approach it. He 16 approaches it with a lot of footnotes and 17 cross-referencing it to works -- 18 Q. Well, what's his thesis? 19 A. That Scientology is a social phenomenon 20 that has certain characteristics and should be 21 studied as a social phenomenon, and that's a pretty 22 unique view. 23 Q. What do you mean unique view? 24 A. Because most of the time the way 25 Scientology ends up being analyzed in the -- I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 722 1 would just say in publications in general is in a 2 sort of a sensational way, and so he's taken a more 3 scholarly approach and I think that's a very good 4 way to do it, rather than just sort of overnight 5 newspaper or magazine stories. He spends time -- 6 Q. So you agree with what his conclusions are 7 about Scientology? 8 A. No. I agree with his approach. I think 9 it's very -- 10 Q. And what about his conclusions don't you 11 agree with? 12 A. I don't remember any particular 13 conclusions that I can cite that I agree or 14 disagree. It's more of the case that I approve 15 greatly of the approach. That he bases his upon 16 interviews with people, study of the material, 17 correlating it to existing studies. 18 Q. Does he compare it to other religions? 19 A. I think he may have made some social 20 comparisons. I don't remember any comparisons in 21 the nature of religious philosophy. 22 Q. Is Buddhism a religion? 23 A. I would call it a religious philosophy. 24 Q. Would you consider it -- would you 25 consider a Buddhist, somebody that practices SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 723 1 Buddhism, would you consider that -- is it your 2 position that they are practicing a valid religion? 3 A. I would say they are religious but 4 Buddhism is especially difficult because it is such 5 a catch as catch can religion, which I put in 6 quotes, but it's right on the fringe, but, yeah, I 7 suppose I could say, yeah, it's a religion. It's 8 just that it's such an individual religion. 9 Q. You think there might be a few million 10 people in the world that would -- tens of millions 11 of people in the world that might disagree with 12 you, that is absolutely not a fringe religion, that 13 it is a religion? 14 A. Oh, yes. At the same time, same with the 15 Tao, which a number of people would say, even 16 though they are Taoists, they don't consider it a 17 religion, they consider it a way of life. So when 18 you get into the Eastern religions, it gets to be a 19 very sticky subject. 20 Q. What do you mean Buddhism is a fringe or 21 on the fringe or is a fringe religion? 22 A. I didn't say fringe religion. I said it's 23 one that by its practice, you have Buddhist 24 organizations which are definitely Buddhist 25 organizations and religions in that sense of the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 724 1 word, but at the same time you have a number of 2 practicing Buddhists that are independent and very 3 free-floating and practice it on such an individual 4 level that they wouldn't say it's a religion as 5 much as it's more in the way of the Tao, it's a way 6 of life, it's a way of behaving more than it is a 7 discipline. 8 Q. Sort of like Scientology, it's a way of 9 life, it's a belief system, it's a religion 10 considered by many people, correct? 11 A. That would be a comparable thing, yeah. 12 Q. All right. I believe in the past you were 13 probably quoted as comparing Scientology in some 14 way to Buddhism. 15 A. Back when I was in the organization, yes. 16 Q. Now, what have you published on this area 17 of expertise that you have? 18 A. Well, I published an article in Quill 19 Magazine. 20 Q. When was that? 21 A. Oh, gee. 22 THE WITNESS: Hey, Rinder, what year was 23 that? 24 Q. Just answer the question. Okay? Were 25 you in Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 725 1 A. No. This is like circa 1992 or so. 2 Q. Fine. And that -- and that was a what, a 3 lengthy article, a short article? 4 A. Well, it was lengthy, it was -- it had 5 a -- Quill, first of all, is the magazine of The 6 Society for Professional Journalists and it was 7 lengthy in that there was the main article and then 8 there was a large side -- what they call a sidebar, 9 which was one page, which a one-page article itself 10 would be enough but that was a large sidebar. Then 11 there was two or three more sidebars to that which 12 were one-column pieces that each of those stood by 13 themselves, so -- 14 Q. And you wrote favorable things about 15 Scientology in this article? 16 A. Depends upon your definition of favorable. 17 It was truth -- 18 Q. In other words, it was a very critical 19 article. It was after you had decided to leave the 20 religion and you started getting paid to testify 21 against it, correct? 22 A. I -- that's totally false. 23 Q. Oh, you've never been paid to testify 24 against Scientology? 25 A. I just said your statement was false. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 726 1 I've never been paid to testify against 2 Scientology. 3 Q. And you're not being paid today either, 4 right? 5 A. I'm here as an expert. I expect to get 6 paid only for my time because you want me. 7 Q. Now, other than this Quill Magazine -- 8 were you paid for that article, by the way? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How much were you paid for it? 11 A. Oh, I don't remember, just a few hundred 12 dollars. 13 Q. Now, other than that article, have you 14 been published anywhere with regard to Scientology, 15 with regard to the issue of -- by the way, did that 16 article have to do with the issue of religiosity in 17 Scientology? 18 A. In a sense, because it was how I 19 manipulated the media to create the image that was 20 needed and how we misled the press and -- to create 21 an image that really wasn't true. 22 Q. Kind of a life story? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Anything else that you published with 25 regard to the issue of religiosity in Scientology SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 727 1 or this other -- how the Sea Org works or the 2 familiarity with command lines? 3 A. Peripherally, there was the article that I 4 wrote for Der Spiegel Magazine. 5 Q. Which you got $20,000 for, right? 6 A. Well, that was part of it. The rest was 7 for consultation. 8 Q. Other than those two? 9 A. I believe that's all. 10 Q. Okay. What -- what college or advanced 11 degrees have you gotten with regard to this area of 12 expertise, the religiosity of Scientology or 13 religion, for that matter? Have you taken courses 14 with regard to comparative religions or religions 15 or religious philosophy or the world religions or 16 anything like that? 17 A. Well, my major in college was philosophy. 18 Q. Well, do you have any advanced degrees 19 with regard to religion? 20 A. With regard to religion just as generally 21 as philosophy, I did -- no, my emphasis was 22 philosophy of psychology, which I was working on a 23 Ph.D. 24 Q. Which you never got, right? 25 A. No, I did not get it. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 728 1 Q. So I take it the answer is you don't have 2 any advanced degrees with regard to religion, is 3 that right? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. What opinions are you being asked to give, 6 as you understand it? 7 A. Basically, how the organization -- well, I 8 gave that a while ago, describing it. 9 Q. Just do it again. How the organization 10 works -- 11 A. How the organization operates and moves as 12 interacts between the pieces. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. How the religious image -- the history of 15 creating religious image in the organization and 16 how that was done. And back -- going back on the 17 first point, of course, then it would be the 18 entities and the operations of what moves those -- 19 on those command or information channels. 20 Q. And then the Sea Org, is that the last 21 thing? 22 A. Well, that is -- that would be the -- 23 Q. Part of that? 24 A. The entity that by which -- 25 Q. Now, but are there any -- are there any SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 729 1 opinions that you're being asked to give, as you 2 understand it, with regard to Scientology? Are you 3 being -- I mean you understand the difference 4 between a percipient witness and an expert, right? 5 You understand that there is a difference? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, all you've told me so far, as I 8 understand it, is you're going to come in here and 9 tell us about your experiences in Scientology, 10 which sounds sort of like a percipient witness. So 11 what I'm asking you is what is it, as you 12 understand it, that you're being asked to give an 13 opinion on or an expert opinion on as opposed to 14 your 21 years worth of experience in misleading the 15 public with regard to Scientology, according to 16 what you say? 17 A. Well, I'm capable of actually finding, 18 showing and interpreting, showing how Scientology 19 publications and directives reflect the points that 20 I'm trying to -- 21 Q. That's great. But the whole purpose of 22 this deposition is for me to ask and you to tell me 23 what it is you're going to testify about. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. So when you say I'm capable of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 730 1 doing that, that doesn't do anything for me. I 2 want to know what it is you're going to do with 3 regard to your testimony. 4 A. I'll be able to show how the organization 5 moves and offer my opinion that it has operated on 6 that for decades and continues to operate on that 7 because of the policies of Hubbard, and how they 8 are embedded in the organization and have been for 9 many decades so that the public relations 10 publications do give an actual, accurate reflection 11 of this, as well as the directives, and that the 12 organization continues to operate this way. 13 At the same time, I can also show that the 14 religious issue is not sincerely held. 15 Q. Okay. You understand the problem I'm 16 having here? It's -- you know, it's terrific that 17 you -- that you want to come in here and -- I don't 18 think it's terrific but you want to come in here 19 and tell us about your experience. Okay. Great. 20 I'm not interested in your experience. What I'm 21 interested in is what opinions are you going to 22 give? Now, you've told me generally. I just want 23 to know what opinions -- let's start with the 24 religious issue. What is the opinion that you're 25 going to give with regard to the religious issue? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 731 1 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered. 2 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not, Ken. 3 A. That any presentation that this is a -- 4 that this is -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me for a second. 6 Look, Ken -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Don't argue. 8 MR. WEINBERG: No, this is nonsense. 9 MR. DANDAR: I made my objection. 10 MR. WEINBERG: You give interrogatories 11 here that are a bunch of garbage and we're 12 getting garbage from Mr. Young now, and what I 13 want is some opinions. And you know we're 14 getting sandbagged horribly in this situation. 15 You serve on us a motion, you don't give us 16 the documents, it's a bunch of nonsense. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. Now, what I'm asking you, Mr. Young, is 19 tell us what you're going to testify to tomorrow as 20 your opinion as to the religious issue. Just tell 21 us that. 22 A. The presentation Scientology is a valid 23 religion and deserves the protection of the First 24 Amendment is wrong, that it should not be granted, 25 that it is not sincerely held within the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 732 1 organization and has never been held within the 2 organization, and that the presentation of that 3 particular topic is one that is created by 4 Mr. Rinder's section, by Department 20, and has 5 been that way for decades. 6 Q. That's your opinion? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. That's the opinion? Okay. Now, what is 9 the basis for your opinion that the presentation of 10 Scientology is valid is wrong? 11 A. Documents and personal experiences and 12 speaking with -- 13 Q. I'm just asking specifically, what is the 14 basis? Spell it out for us. Which documents, what 15 experience? 16 A. Having seen it, done it, trained people in 17 it, been trained in it, even with working with 18 Mr. Rinder on it, 21 years of seeing it, doing it, 19 represented in the press, et cetera, for the same 20 reason that I wrote the article in Quill Magazine, 21 why I was able to try to educate journalists on 22 really how the organization operates. 23 Q. What documents are you relying on? 24 A. For which part? 25 Q. What you just said. You said that it -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 733 1 that you're going to give an opinion that 2 Scientology -- that Scientology is -- that the -- 3 in essence, Scientology is not a valid religion, 4 from your experience, you said, in Scientology, you 5 haven't given us the specific experience, and from 6 various documents. Which documents? 7 A. For example, I'm not going to be able to 8 cite specifically because I didn't know you were 9 going to be asking me these questions. 10 Q. What's he going to ask you tomorrow? Are 11 you going to cite specifically tomorrow or are you 12 just going to come in and say I was there for 21 13 years and based on my 21 years, it's not valid? 14 A. Calm down, sir. For example, there is a 15 policy letter that Mr. Hubbard wrote. I don't want 16 to be quoted exactly on this but I believe it was 17 nineteen -- maybe it was 1970 in which he says 18 that, for example, about the religious nature of 19 Scientology, and how the year 1970 is going to be 20 a big push to establish Scientology as a religion. 21 That policy is contained in the most 22 recent volumes of the organization, the Green on 23 White volumes. The difficulty is that the original 24 issue that came out in the first Green on White 25 volumes had some extra paragraphs that they have SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 734 1 deleted without telling anybody, and the deletion 2 is exactly how you manipulate things. The -- what 3 was deleted from Mr. Hubbard's policy was where he 4 says don't worry, this doesn't change anything, 5 this is just a matter for the accountants and 6 solicitors, and another paragraph where he talks 7 about selling shares. 8 So they deleted that because that shows 9 that he was selling shares in his religion and that 10 he just said, really guys, what we're doing on this 11 religious issue of pushing religion doesn't have 12 anything to do with anything, it's just a matter 13 for the lawyers and the accountants. 14 And the fact that the organization deleted 15 it from their newly-released volumes is exactly how 16 you manipulate image. They are going to take the 17 volumes and they'll present them to the Court and 18 they'll say see, your Honor, here is Mr. Hubbard 19 talking about religion. And all I have to do is I 20 just have to remind somebody that what Mr. Hubbard 21 said in the original issue is a little bit 22 different and presents a very different picture. 23 And this is how you manipulate the courts. 24 Q. All right. But your testimony is it's not 25 a valid religion. That's your testimony, right, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 735 1 that's your opinion? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. Now, what standard have you used -- 4 can you tell us what -- how you would -- is there 5 some standard, some rule of law that you as an 6 expert are familiar with as to what is a religion, 7 a valid religion, and what is not a valid religion? 8 Can you elucidate on that for us? 9 A. The main thing I would first of all cite 10 myself would be the sincerity in the presentation 11 of the organization, that if the organization and 12 the leadership is presenting this thing as a 13 religion and you're like some shyster evangelist 14 travelling sideshow, that you're out front 15 preaching about Jesus and then going back and high 16 fiving and counting the til and figuring out how 17 many more ladies you can bilk, I wouldn't consider 18 that sincere and I wouldn't consider that to be the 19 presentation of a religion, regardless of what the 20 people out front may have thought. And that's 21 exactly the first thing I would testify to is that 22 the presentation that is being made by the 23 organization -- you used the word scriptures. Like 24 I said, I've never heard one Scientologist in 21 25 years ever do that. I never heard one -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 736 1 Q. Was that part of the test, so if you don't 2 call it scriptures you're not a religion? 3 A. No, I'm just -- 4 Q. What is the test for being a religion? 5 You're the expert. What is the test for being a 6 religion? 7 A. I'm telling you my first -- you asked me a 8 question, I'm responding. I said the first thing 9 would be with regard to the sincerity of 10 presentation. Is it actually being sincerely 11 presented? The second test I would do on it is is 12 it being honestly presented as to what the 13 organization is actually there to do? Is it really 14 there to do what it is presenting, is it being 15 honestly presented? I don't believe it's being 16 honestly presented. We never honestly presented 17 it. I don't think -- 18 Q. Of course, you haven't been there for ten 19 years, have you? 20 A. Inside as a staff member, no. 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. But Mr. Hubbard -- they can't change 23 Mr. Hubbard's writings, it stays the same. They 24 testify to that. I don't need to know anything 25 different other that what they continue to do. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 737 1 Q. So it's just -- it's just your assumption 2 that no one on the staff of Scientology has a 3 sincere belief in Scientology. Is that your 4 testimony? 5 A. That's not what I was just saying. 6 Q. Is it your testimony -- 7 A. That's not what I was just saying. 8 Q. Is it your testimony that no one on the 9 staff of Scientology has an honest belief in 10 Scientology? 11 A. No, I didn't say that. 12 Q. Well, what are you saying? 13 A. I just tried to say -- first of all, you 14 ask me a question, I answer and then you just say I 15 didn't say it. So either we can read back the 16 transcript -- 17 Q. No. No. What are you saying? 18 A. I just said it. Didn't you hear me? 19 Q. No. Well, I may have heard the words. 20 They don't make any sense, Mr. Young. 21 A. Well, I'll start again. We'll start again 22 on the sincerity one. We'll start again, okay? 23 Q. Fine. 24 A. Okay. It's your nickel. 25 Q. What do you meant it's my nickel? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 738 1 A. It's your time. You've got a couple of 2 hours. If you want me to cover my testimony again, 3 I'm more than willing to do it again. 4 So we'll start on sincerity. It's a 5 matter of the sincerity of whether or not what the 6 organization is presenting is truly being presented 7 sincerely or if it's not being presented sincerely. 8 I know from experience and I can show it by things 9 and I will cite again, the matter of an issue that 10 Mr. Hubbard presented -- 11 Q. You've already told us about that. 12 A. Well, you said you didn't hear it, you 13 didn't believe it. 14 Q. So your test of a religion is whether it's 15 sincere as presented by, I guess, not the members 16 of the religion but the people that -- the 17 ministers in the religion. Is that what you're 18 saying? 19 A. The organization. 20 Q. The organization. And then whether it's 21 honest -- whether they're honest about their 22 beliefs, that's the second test. Is there any 23 other test for what would be a valid religion in 24 the Vaughn Young world? 25 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 739 1 A. If you want to just not make accusations, 2 I'll answer your question. 3 Q. It's a very sincere question. 4 A. I'm not going to -- 5 Q. You have presented yourself as one of 6 three experts in the world, two of which are in 7 this room, on the religiosity of Scientology. So 8 I'm asking you in your world, in that very small 9 world, you know, what is your test for what a valid 10 religion is beyond sincerity and honesty? 11 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. Move to 12 strike. 13 A. I don't have a world from which I'm 14 responding. If you want to just ask me for mine, I 15 will give it to you. 16 Q. I just asked you. 17 A. No, you didn't. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, he's not being 19 responsive. This is going to take -- 20 MR. DANDAR: You're asking argumentative 21 questions. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, I'm not asking 23 argumentative questions. 24 MR. DANDAR: Here we go again. The last 25 time was 20 seconds. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 740 1 MR. WEINBERG: What I'm getting is 2 argument and it's nonsense and this is the 3 most preposterous, ridiculous testimony I have 4 ever heard in my entire life. 5 MR. DANDAR: Well, you know, thank you 6 for your opinion but you asked him a question, 7 he's answering them. 8 MR. WEINBERG: No, he's not. He hasn't 9 even tried to answer them. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, then adjourn and let's 11 go to the judge. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, stop. We will go back 13 to the judge, there is no question about that. 14 MR. DANDAR: You better believe we will. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, no, we will. This is 16 preposterous. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. What is your test for a religion, 19 sincerity, honesty, what else? 20 A. The next category that I would do would 21 just be the presentation of the organization in 22 toto, which you're asking for my particular 23 opinion. 24 Q. What else can I do? I'm asking for your 25 opinion. What else can I do? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 741 1 A. I'm not arguing, I'm just responding. 2 Q. Well, go on. 3 A. God, you ask me to respond and then you 4 challenge me when I respond. 5 The organization, for example, and this 6 goes back to when I say in toto, this goes back to, 7 let's say, physical presentation. When an 8 organization creates a physical appearance with 9 structure and garb, which is slightly different, 10 that is also intended to be misleading. 11 Q. I don't understand what you just said. 12 What do you mean by that? Sort of like a Catholic 13 priest? What are you talking about with garb? 14 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to object to you 15 interrupting him. Don't interrupt him. Wait 16 until he's done and then ask him those -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: He was done. 18 A. I was not done. I was about to say it. 19 For example, when the religion campaign started in 20 '70 and then picked up when I got it in '71, we 21 were instructed to create chapels, set aside 22 sections of the organizations for chapels so that 23 we had a religious image. They weren't intended 24 for use but if somebody walked in and they saw a 25 chapel, they got the impression. We were SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 742 1 instructed to wear crosses around our necks, not 2 because we were religious but because we needed the 3 image. 4 And you build these things, you create 5 this edifice up there so people look at it and they 6 think, oh, this must be a church. And so again, 7 you're creating -- 8 Q. Do you think a collar that a priest wears, 9 is that just -- is that just for show? 10 A. It is in Scientology. 11 Q. I'm saying a collar for a priest, is that 12 for show in the Catholic church? 13 A. You'd have to ask that priest. 14 Q. I'm asking you as an expert on religion. 15 A. I'm not an expert on priests, sir. I'm 16 just only testifying about Scientology. 17 Q. So the only religion you're an expert in, 18 according to your testimony, is Scientology? You 19 can't compare it to any other religion, is that 20 right? 21 A. I'm familiar with other religions. 22 I've studied other religions but I'm not going to 23 testify -- 24 Q. Which other religions have you studied? 25 MR. DANDAR: Wait, you're interrupting SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 743 1 him. 2 A. Let me finish my -- 3 MR. DANDAR: Just calm down, guys. Look, 4 let him finish his answer. 5 Q. Go ahead. 6 A. I'm not going to testify about other 7 religions. I am familiar with them only to the 8 degree that I am familiar with them with my own 9 education, but I'm not going to testify about other 10 religions. 11 Q. Which other religions have you studied? 12 A. Well, I've studied Christianity. 13 Q. In college? When did you study 14 Christianity? 15 A. Well, I was raised as a Christian, so you 16 start with that. There is a lot of -- 17 Q. When I say study I'm talking about 18 something more than being raised. What -- did you 19 take some training in Christianity beyond your 20 youth? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What other religions have you studied? 23 A. One -- studies is -- you're going to argue 24 with me about that but one studies religions just 25 in gaining degrees in philosophy when one studies SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 744 1 various movements and developments of philosophy. 2 I did not study the religion to sit down, per se. 3 You study them within the context of the 4 development of thought. So you just study whether 5 or not the -- Catholicism, how it influenced, say 6 came out -- was influenced by Aristotelian 7 thoughts, influenced Galileo, developed into the -- 8 into some other form. 9 Q. It's a simple question. I just asked 10 you -- 11 A. Hey, wait a minute. I gave -- 12 Q. I'm getting some nonsense about 13 Aristotelian thoughts. Is it Catholic, fine, 14 Catholic, is it Buddhist, fine, Buddhist, just tell 15 me. 16 A. You know, I'm answering your question. 17 Q. No, you're not. 18 A. Well, you take that -- what that person 19 just did and give it to anyone and they'll find 20 that as a valid response. 21 Q. Let's go to the next question. 22 A. The problem is you don't like my 23 responses. 24 Q. No, I don't -- like your responses? We'll 25 be here for the next month and a half because you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 745 1 don't answer the question. 2 A. Take that response to the judge. It will 3 be found to be a valid response. 4 MR. DANDAR: He's talking about in the 5 area of philosophy, which is what his 6 Ph.D. candidacy was in. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Just stop. Just stop. 8 MR. DANDAR: But you don't want to hear 9 that? Fine. Just make sure you're not making 10 a mistake here. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me? 12 MR. DANDAR: Just make sure you're not 13 making a mistake here. 14 MR. WEINBERG: No, you're making a 15 mistake here. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q. What is -- what are the opinions -- are 18 you giving an opinion tomorrow as to whether 19 Scientology is a valid religion? Are you giving an 20 opinion as to that? 21 A. That I don't consider it to be a valid 22 religion in the sense that we normally use it in 23 this -- 24 Q. We, being who? 25 A. Can I finish my sentence, please? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 746 1 Q. I'm just trying to clarify. 2 MR. DANDAR: No, you're interrupting him. 3 THE WITNESS: I'd like to take a break. 4 A. I mean seriously sir, all you do is in 5 the middle of my sentence, and the record will show 6 it, you interrupt me and then you challenge me and 7 then you say I'm not answering your question when 8 I'm trying to answer your question. 9 Q. You haven't tried to answer my question. 10 Let's start over again. 11 A. That is bullshit, sir. 12 Q. Excuse me? 13 A. I'm sorry. That is bullshit when you say 14 I'm not answering your question when you interrupt 15 me. 16 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Do you need a break? 17 Do you need a break? 18 A. You asked me a question and the record 19 will show you cut right into the middle and then 20 you say I'm not answering your question. 21 MR. DANDAR: Robert, you're right but do 22 you need a break? 23 THE WITNESS: No, it's just, I mean 24 really -- 25 MR. DANDAR: Do you need a break? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 747 1 THE WITNESS: I need a glass of water. 2 MR. DANDAR: Let me get you some water. 3 All right. Let's take a water break. 4 (Recess from 5:17 until 5:19 p.m.) 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q. What is your -- you say you're going to 7 give an opinion that Scientology is not a valid 8 religion. What is that opinion based on, 9 specifically based on? 10 A. Didn't I just spend a half an hour doing 11 that? 12 Q. Just answer my question. 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Asked and answered. 14 A. Okay. We'll start this again. 15 MR. DANDAR: Wait. Let me interrupt you. 16 You are right, it's their time, just answer 17 their question. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm more than happy to do 19 it again. 20 MR. DANDAR: If they want it 20 times, go 21 ahead. 22 A. No, I'll do it again. This is based upon 23 my 21 years of experience, my ability to locate 24 documents, my ability to integrate the information, 25 to show how the organization operates by SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 748 1 manipulation. Mr. Hubbard wrote something in 1970 2 with regard to religion, which in the older volumes 3 shows that he cited something else, which was 4 that -- where he says this is purely for the 5 solicitors and the accountants. The presentation 6 of something like this now in new volumes as if it 7 always existed that way is a prime example of how 8 the organization manipulates its image to create a 9 document that it can use in the courts. This was 10 something we did constantly in the organization and 11 so it's clearly still doing it with these current 12 volumes that are there. 13 I can also find other instances and bring 14 these forward with regard to how the organization 15 manipulates its image and that this is done through 16 the Sea Org channels. 17 Q. So that's the basis, what you just said, 18 for what your opinion is going to be that 19 Scientology is not a valid religion, is that right? 20 A. And, to finish -- if I may finish my 21 thought that was cut off before, in the sense that 22 we normally use this in the United States, which 23 usually comes to be an -- 24 Q. Use what though, use religion you mean? 25 A. I'll try to finish my sentence. Could I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 749 1 finish my sentence? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. 4 A. Of which we use this in the United States 5 in which usually we mean this as an established, 6 recognized, religious organization, which usually 7 comes also to mean landed, which means it has a 8 base location, et cetera, which is different than 9 say Taoism practiced in the United States. I don't 10 think you can find a Taoist church or building 11 around, perhaps you could. And yet we would call 12 that a religion. But we have to be very careful in 13 doing so because people say what's the basis of it 14 being a religion, can it get a tax exemption? 15 Well, Taoism is just simply a religion. In the 16 United States when we talk about religion, we 17 usually end up throwing it into IRS categories and 18 501C-3 categories and can it get an exemption for 19 state taxes, et cetera. So we have to be careful 20 here. 21 If we talk about religion in a 22 philosophical sense as I was studying it, then it 23 becomes simply a subject. It's got nothing to do 24 with 501C-3, it's got nothing to do with landed. 25 It's got to do with the development of religious SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 750 1 thought and religious philosophy. 2 As I was trying to explain before, then 3 you study how Catholicism integrated with the 4 scientific movement, how it developed through the 5 Renaissance -- 6 Q. But I asked you the basis for your opinion 7 that Scientology was not a valid religion. So now 8 is it -- is it that it's not landed, is that what 9 you're -- is that what you're saying? In addition 10 to everything else that you said, is that what you 11 just got through saying? 12 A. Were you really listening or just doodling 13 while I was talking? Because you were doodling all 14 the time I was talking. You're obviously bored. 15 Q. Obviously, you're watching me doodle. I 16 mean are you -- 17 A. Well, you're not listening to me. 18 Q. Trying to. It's not making a lot of 19 sense. 20 A. And you interrupted me again. 21 Q. I had to because you were talking about 22 Catholicism. I'm talking about Scientology and 23 your opinion that it's not a valid religion. 24 A. I answer your question and then you say I 25 don't answer your question. So either it -- you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 751 1 know, if you don't want to count it as an answer 2 then you don't count it as an answer. But I'm 3 trying to explain to you why I'm -- how I'm going 4 to use the word religion and I'm going to try to 5 use it very carefully. And if you want to doodle 6 and say it's not an answer -- 7 Q. Okay. How are you going to use the word 8 religion? Since your opinion has to do with 9 religiosity, I assume religion is part of 10 religiosity? 11 A. As a subject. 12 Q. Right. So how are you -- how are we -- 13 how are you defining the word religion tomorrow 14 when you say that Scientology is not a valid 15 religion? 16 A. I will use it in the sense of being a 17 landed organization that should be fully recognized 18 by government as a valid operating religion, which 19 you switched to sort of a slightly different sense. 20 I would characterize it more as of, you know, a 21 traveling circus show of the old '20s. 22 Q. Scientology? 23 A. That's -- pretty much that's how Hubbard 24 set it up. 25 Q. Okay. Now, what do you mean by -- since SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 752 1 we -- now we finally got a definition for religion. 2 What do you mean by landed organization, what's 3 that mean? 4 A. In the sense that you can locate it. If 5 you will, just let me just say something without 6 interruption. It's very easy to have a religious 7 movement or a philosophical movement based upon a 8 book, for example. Someone puts out a book and 9 there is suddenly a movement. People are talking 10 about it, there is news stories about it. You 11 know, like, just off the top of my head, it's 12 certainly not a religion but this guy that wrote 13 Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus, and it 14 took off and this whole thing. That is not a 15 landed movement. It's not located somewhere. 16 Where do I go find out about it? It's just a 17 movement like hula hoops or something. 18 A landed organization is one that you can 19 go find it and say where do I go to find out about 20 it and there are people and they tell me about it, 21 et cetera. That's different than just a general 22 movement. Okay? 23 Q. Okay. Now, Scientology is a landed 24 organization? 25 A. Definitely. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 753 1 Q. Okay. So we've met that part of the 2 definition of religion when you say -- 3 A. No. No. Just -- I'm sorry, I 4 misunderstood you. 5 Q. Now you're interrupting me, aren't you? 6 A. You're absolutely right, Mr. Weinberg, and 7 I apologize. 8 Q. Now, Scientology is a landed organization, 9 correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. All right. Because I can find it, can't 12 I? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. Then you say a landed 15 organization that should be fully recognized by 16 government, and in the United States, Scientology 17 is fully recognized by the government of the United 18 States as a religion that is entitled to tax exempt 19 status, isn't it? 20 A. No. I have to dispute you when you say 21 fully recognized by the government of the United 22 States. Just because you got recognized for tax 23 exemption doesn't mean you are recognized by the 24 entire United States government. 25 Q. Well, excuse me for a second, but how does SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 754 1 one get recognized by the entire United States 2 government? 3 A. Beats me. 4 Q. Okay. So the best I can do when we're 5 talking about religions and tax exempt status is to 6 be recognized by that part of the United States 7 government that's responsible for it, which is the 8 IRS, right? 9 A. No. There is other sections and I -- 10 this goes back into what else I can testify to. 11 Different sections of the government grant 12 recognitions according to their needs. In 1975, I 13 was the one within the organization responsible for 14 gaining recognition from the US State Department 15 granting the Church of Scientology religious 16 recognition for the purpose of visas. I was also 17 responsible for gaining the recognition from the US 18 Labor Department, which granted the Church of 19 Scientology recognition with regard to labor law. 20 Each section of government has its own peculiar 21 recognition that may be extended to any 22 organization with regard to that particular domain. 23 Q. Right. And the State of Florida, State of 24 California, various other states have recognized 25 the Church of Scientology for various things, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 755 1 including tax exempt status, haven't they? 2 A. That might be. 3 Q. Fine. So that -- do you know of any part 4 of the government of the United States that hasn't 5 recognized the Church of Scientology for whatever 6 it was that the Church of Scientology wanted to be 7 recognized for? 8 A. Not right now, no. 9 Q. And courts have recognized the Church of 10 Scientology as a religion, haven't they? 11 A. I don't know that that -- that has been 12 argued and recognized in an actual court as being 13 argued and recognized. 14 Q. Well, haven't you -- have you read -- did 15 you read the Eleventh Circuit opinion with regard 16 to the City of Clearwater and Scientology, did you 17 read that? 18 A. I -- pardon me on Eleventh Circuit. I 19 lose track on -- 20 Q. That's the circuit that has to do with 21 this part of the country, Eleventh Circuit Court of 22 Appeals, Federal. 23 A. Okay. But I would -- I would have to see 24 that to remember if I read it. 25 Q. Well, do you remember that the Eleventh SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 756 1 Circuit spoke eloquently about Scientology and how 2 it's protected by the First Amendment and how the 3 City of Clearwater had discriminated against it for 4 20 years? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You don't remember that? 7 A. No, not offhand. 8 Q. Now, so your definition, I'm going to your 9 definition of religion, landed organization, which 10 we've acknowledged is Scientology, that should be 11 fully recognized by the government, and you just 12 told me in addition to tax exempt status you were 13 successful in getting the State Department to 14 recognize visas and the Labor Department to 15 recognize various labor things, and you just said 16 that you don't know of any section of government 17 that hasn't recognized the Church of Scientology. 18 So my question is why doesn't Scientology meet your 19 definition? It's a landed organization that was 20 fully recognized in the United States by the 21 government as an operating religion. 22 A. Because we were obtaining those 23 recognitions from government fraudulently and I was 24 part of that fraud. 25 Q. All right. So what you're saying is -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 757 1 when we get right down to it, is that you concede 2 that Scientology is landed, you concede that 3 Scientology has been recognized by government, but 4 you're here to try to undo the recognition because 5 you say that you, sir, committed a fraud for over 6 21 years? 7 A. No. 8 Q. That's your testimony? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Well, what is your testimony then? 11 A. Well, okay. I'll start again. 12 Q. No, don't start again. 13 A. Sir, you just asked me what's my 14 testimony. That's a pretty general question. 15 MR. DANDAR: No, he just wants to -- I 16 can't help you out. I don't know. 17 Q. The -- it is your position then that even 18 though you define religion as a landed organization 19 fully recognized by government, that Scientology 20 doesn't qualify because you say you participated in 21 a fraud for 21 years? 22 A. That was just one point I cited, sir. 23 Q. Okay. Is there some other point, because 24 it certainly seems to meet your definition? 25 A. No. I cited a number of other points. If SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 758 1 we want to do this again, I'm more than happy to do 2 it again. 3 Q. Well, is the definition any different, or 4 is this -- 5 A. No. 6 Q. There is no other aspect of the definition 7 of religion than landed organization that should be 8 fully recognized by government as an operating 9 religion. That is your definition of religion? 10 A. I make that subject to change. If you 11 want me to sit down and write one as opposed to 12 being in a deposition and toss it off the top of my 13 head -- 14 Q. See, you're the expert and I'm here to 15 find out what your opinion is. All I'm asking is 16 what's your definition of religion? You're in here 17 testifying about religion. It's not a difficult 18 question. 19 A. I'm trying -- no. Only when you don't let 20 me answer it. 21 Q. You can say that all you want to but I've 22 given you plenty of opportunities to answer. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Is there some other definition of religion 25 or is it going to change between now and tomorrow? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 759 1 A. No. We'll just discuss it tomorrow and 2 you can cross-examine at that point, I suppose. 3 Q. All right. Is there -- as to the Sea Org, 4 you say that the Sea Org controls all of 5 Scientology, is that what you say? 6 A. No, I didn't say that. 7 Q. What are you saying about the Sea Org? 8 A. The Sea Org is a -- an organization who's 9 influence and command channels have not been 10 recognized -- do you want me to wait until you're 11 done? 12 Q. Just go ahead. 13 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead, Robert. 14 Q. All I'm reading is -- I asked you a 15 question. You're saying that the Sea Org controls 16 all of Scientology. I'm reading here from these 17 interrogatories that you helped Mr. Dandar write, 18 provide a summary of the grounds for each of your 19 opinions. And then you say in here -- in here in 20 Exhibit, whatever it is, A, the voluminous Sea Org 21 and Scientology documents show that Sea Org 22 controls every facet of all of Scientology. And my 23 question was, you say the Sea Org controls all of 24 Scientology, and your answer to that was no, I'm 25 not saying that. So I don't get it. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 760 1 A. There is a lot of questions in there. 2 First of all, I -- I told you before I did not help 3 him write that. 4 Q. So this is wrong then, you're not going to 5 say that the Sea Org controls all of Scientology? 6 A. No, I did not say that. 7 MR. DANDAR: Just tell him what you're 8 going to say. That's all he wants to know. 9 A. I'm not sure he wants to know. I started 10 to and you interrupted me, sir. May I finish my 11 sentence? 12 MR. DANDAR: Just wait for another 13 question. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. You say that Sea Org controls all of 16 Scientology, is that right? 17 A. I'm saying that the Sea Organization is 18 that organization that permeates from the top down 19 to the lowest echelons on which control, commands, 20 information flows, and has been heretofore 21 unrecognized as to its influence and how it 22 operates. It extends as far as the Sea Org wants 23 it to extend. 24 Q. What are the command lines of the Sea Org? 25 A. Whatever it wants to be is the way it SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 761 1 actually operates by current -- through Mission 2 Tech. They can send any individual into any 3 organization with full, unlimited power to take 4 over the organization. That means somebody from 5 RTC could fly into the Copenhagen org and just show 6 up and take it over. It's not a command line. 7 It's like -- 8 Q. Do you know what I mean by command line? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Is there a command line in the Sea 11 Org? 12 A. Yes and no. 13 Q. Well, yes, what is the command line? 14 A. The command lines starts with David 15 Miscavige. 16 Q. As what? 17 A. As the captain of the Sea Org. 18 Q. And what is the command line under it? 19 A. Then it goes to his immediate aides. 20 Q. Well, what are the -- you're the expert, 21 you're here to talk about Scientology. What are 22 the command lines? 23 A. I'm telling you that the command lines of 24 Scientology and the command lines of the Sea 25 Organization are two slightly different subjects. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 762 1 Because the command lines of Scientology are 2 intended to be corporately separate so the command 3 lines that they are showing are different slightly 4 from the Sea Organization. The Sea Organization 5 are the nerves, I try to say, that connect the 6 various organizations the way -- 7 Q. I'm asking you a really simple question. 8 What are the -- I'll change it. What -- the Sea 9 Org command lines are by rank, aren't they? 10 A. Yes and no. There is earned rank and 11 there is brevet rank. 12 Q. Okay. And what is earned rank? 13 A. Earned rank is what you have actually 14 earned, so that you are a petty officer or a 15 midshipman or a commander. A brevet rank is the 16 rank that you are given according to the position 17 that you hold in the organization. So the 18 commanding officer of, let's say, the advanced 19 organization in Los Angeles or the commanding 20 officer of the FSO will be a captain because the 21 captain, as in a captain of the ship, is in charge 22 of the entire organization. But the earned rank of 23 that individual might be a midshipman or it could 24 be a petty officer. 25 Q. What was your earned rank? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 763 1 A. My earned rank was petty officer. 2 Q. Which is right at the bottom, right? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What's the bottom? 5 A. The bottom is swamper. 6 Q. All right. And then petty officer is the 7 next, right? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What's after swamper? 10 A. Let's see, what was after swamper? Then 11 you get up to -- gosh, I forget right now. 12 Q. Isn't it petty officer? 13 A. No. Gosh, there is one in between and 14 then you get up to petty officer. 15 Q. All right. So you were at the low rank? 16 A. Well, and earned, like a number of them, 17 yes. 18 Q. All right. And what was your brevet -- 19 what was your highest brevet rank? 20 A. I didn't hold a brevet rank. 21 Q. Because you didn't have a position of 22 authority in any of the -- in any of the 23 organizations, correct? 24 A. No, no, that's not true. It was not a Sea 25 Org organization which we had to wear uniforms and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 764 1 therefore carry brevet ranks. You only do that 2 within the Sea Org organization. 3 Q. So in this case that you're testifying 4 about, your testimony is that David Miscavige's 5 earned rank is that of captain, is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that his brevet rank is that of 8 captain as well? 9 A. He has no brevet rank. 10 Q. Well, other -- other heads of other 11 organizations are captains then? Who are the other 12 captains in the Sea Org? 13 A. There is other captains that hold brevet 14 ranks but there is no other earned rank of captain. 15 Q. That's what I just asked you. What is -- 16 who are the other brevet rank captains? 17 A. I don't have them in front of me. 18 Q. Can you name one? 19 A. Well, the last I knew Mark Yager, I knew 20 probably Mr. LaServe, I think Guillon might be. 21 The problem is that I don't have the list in front 22 of me. 23 Q. When I asked you if you were in 24 management, you said yes and no. Is that because 25 you ran people in management? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 765 1 A. Well, it's because we issued orders from 2 Author Services into management but we were not to 3 be recognized as management. So if anybody asked 4 us if we were management we had to deny it because 5 what we were doing was illegal. 6 Q. When you were doing the PR in the early 7 '70s, were you in the Sea Org? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When did you join the Sea Org? 10 A. I believe it was 1981. 11 Q. Well, the -- does every swamper get 12 ordered by every petty officer third class? 13 A. No. 14 Q. When you were in ASI, what -- what was 15 your rank? Petty officer, is that what it was? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You were giving orders to WDC, is that 18 right? 19 A. I think I issued a couple of orders into 20 WDC but it was -- 21 Q. Well, you were -- so you were giving 22 orders to Sea Org members? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you weren't a Sea Org member at the 25 time, were you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 766 1 A. No, I was. I didn't start issuing those 2 orders until I was at Author Services. 3 Q. What were the orgs you ran? 4 A. I didn't run orgs, I just did sections. 5 Q. Well, who gave you orders in each org that 6 you were in, who was your immediate person giving 7 you orders? 8 A. For every org I was in? 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. For 21 years? 11 Q. There weren't that many, were there? 12 Let's say for the last five. 13 A. Well, that would be at ASI. Orders were 14 being given by, for example, David Miscavige. 15 Q. But the person right above you, who was 16 the person giving you orders? 17 A. That's not the way it works, sir. 18 Q. Who was your superior in ASI? 19 A. That's not the way it works. If you want 20 to know who my superior was as opposed to who gave 21 me orders, those are two different things. That's 22 why I'm trying to explain this. 23 Q. Just name me one person that was your 24 superior in ASI. 25 A. David Miscavige. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 767 1 Q. Well, another person other than David. 2 A. I'm sorry you don't like the answer but 3 that's -- 4 Q. Somebody other than David Miscavige. 5 There were people that gave you orders that -- that 6 had a lower rank than you, correct? 7 A. At ASI, Sea Org rank had nothing to do 8 with it. We weren't a Sea Org organization, 9 therefore, we did not even know each other's ranks. 10 Q. Were you in RTC? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What are the Sea Org organizations? 13 A. The primary ones, starting with the 14 advanced organizations, FSO, Advanced Organization 15 LA, Advanced Organization in Copenhagen, RTC would 16 be considered a Sea Org organization, Golden Era 17 Productions would be a Sea Org organization. 18 Q. What was the rank of David Miscavige at 19 ASI? 20 A. He did not have a rank. We were not a Sea 21 Org organization. 22 Q. Well, he was a member of the Sea Org while 23 he was at ASI, wasn't he? So he had a rank, what 24 was his rank when he was at ASI? 25 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 768 1 A. He did not -- he did not have a rank and 2 this is the -- this is what goes on, this is why it 3 is not understood, apparently, even by you, 4 Mr. Weinberg. In a Sea Org organization, rank does 5 appear. If you're not a Sea Org organization -- 6 for example, let's say the Miami Church of 7 Scientology, let's say it's not a Sea Org 8 organization. You will find no Sea Org rank 9 appearing. You will find people just in their 10 every day jobs. He is the director of 11 communications, he's the director of processing, he 12 is the qualifications secretary. They will have 13 positions on the organizing board and Sea Org will 14 appear nowhere, even though they may be Sea Org 15 members. 16 Q. So you get your authority from your 17 position in the organization, not from your rank in 18 the Sea Org, correct? 19 A. Yes and no. Again, these are the two 20 faces of Scientology. If you don't understand it, 21 then you're going to have to have them explain it 22 to you or I can explain it to you tomorrow. 23 Q. How about explaining it to me now? 24 A. Okay. Good. Scientology has two faces. 25 It has a face that is public and a face that is SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 769 1 private. The private face, then there are two more 2 levels. There is the Sea Org level and there is 3 the nonSea Org level. Let's move down to what is a 4 franchise, what we used to call a franchise, is now 5 called a mission. A small organization, they 6 deliver a communications course, they do basic 7 auditing, book auditing, et cetera. They don't 8 even deliver what we call the grades, let alone 9 anything beyond that. Very likely there is not one 10 Sea Org member there because you have to be a 11 member of an org basically to do that. So you're 12 not going to find Sea Org members unless they got 13 busted down to it. There is no Sea Org rank or 14 anything. The positions and titles they carry are 15 the positions of their jobs or their hats. 16 Let's move up to the FSO. At the FSO, 17 suddenly the commanding officer becomes the captain 18 of the organization. Sea Org rank and org board 19 position begin to take on parallel courses here, at 20 which point then the Sea Org rank follows down the 21 organizational board. So the people at the top, 22 the organizational secretary, the public executive 23 secretary or the HCO secretary will have higher Sea 24 Org ranks than their juniors. And those are your 25 brevet ranks. The earned rank turns out to be a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 770 1 whole other thing because there is captains of the 2 organization who have been petty officers. 3 Q. So they get their authority from their 4 position in the organization, not from their 5 position or rank in the Sea Org, correct? 6 A. In the organization -- 7 Q. Just answer that question. 8 A. Yes and no. 9 Q. Why is it no, why isn't it yes? 10 A. Because they can be ordered by somebody 11 that has junior rank if they come in from a senior 12 position. The captain of the FSO, if a mission 13 arrives, sent in by RTC -- she may be a captain but 14 in comes somebody of lower rank. They are a 15 missioner sent in by RTC, and per policy, they have 16 total and absolute unlimited power over that 17 person -- 18 Q. And that's the policy that they get from 19 the incorporation and the letters of incorporation 20 of RTC, which -- in which RTC was set up to protect 21 the integrity of religion, correct? 22 A. Well, first of all I didn't finish my 23 sentence but I'll go back and try to deal with your 24 question. 25 MR. DANDAR: No, answer his first question SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 771 1 then deal with the second question. 2 A. By coming in, that person holds authority 3 over them, which has nothing to do with the org 4 board position, nothing to do with the local Sea 5 Org brevet rank position, but has only the 6 authority of Sea Org and has nothing to do -- 7 anticipating your question, if I might -- has 8 nothing to do with RTC. It is total Sea Org. And 9 this is how Hubbard set it up and I will be able to 10 show the directives from Hubbard where he says Sea 11 Org mission. He doesn't say a mission sent by an 12 organization. Sea Org, not RTC. 13 Q. Which -- just name us one directive that 14 says that. 15 A. Oh, I don't remember the name. It's a 16 Flag Order which was reprinted in the RTC 17 management bulletin, I think Number -- either 18 Number one or Number two, in an article by David 19 Miscavige that he -- I think he -- well, he either 20 authored the article or he authorized the article. 21 It was a front page one, I can see it. It's either 22 executive -- you know, this management bulletin 23 Number one or two. And in it was quoted the 24 Hubbard Flag Order that gives unlimited power to 25 Sea Org missions. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 772 1 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Hubbard alive when RTC was 2 organized? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. So that Mr. Hubbard blessed 5 the reorganization of Scientology, which included 6 the creation of RTC, CSI and the incorporation of 7 the various churches around the world, correct? 8 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 9 Q. Is that right? 10 A. I don't know that. 11 Q. Well, you must have -- you don't know that 12 Mr. Hubbard -- you never read anything that 13 Mr. Hubbard published that -- in which he -- in 14 which he blessed or in which he ratified what 15 occurred with regard to the reorganization in 1981 16 and 1982? 17 A. That's not what I said, sir. 18 Q. Did he? 19 A. I don't know that because -- well, I don't 20 want to answer more than you ask. I don't know 21 that. 22 Q. So you don't know whether Mr. Hubbard 23 ratified the reorganization of Scientology in 1981 24 and 1982? 25 A. I don't know how much Hubbard -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 773 1 Mr. Hubbard actually knew and how much he was 2 actually being manipulated. 3 Q. Did you ever read anything that 4 Mr. Hubbard wrote after the reorganization in 1981 5 and 1982 in which he made it very clear that RTC 6 was -- not the Sea Org, that RTC was responsible 7 for maintaining the integrity and purity of 8 Scientology? 9 A. I read what has been represented as that, 10 yes. 11 Q. And what was that? 12 A. That he had turned that particular 13 function over to RTC. 14 Q. And if in fact that happened, if in fact 15 that happened, then you're just wrong about the Sea 16 Org being able to do this all on their own, aren't 17 you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And why is that? 20 A. Because Mr. Hubbard's policies stand. 21 What he turns over to RTC does not change his 22 policies. In fact, RTC and other sections operate 23 by those same policies still. 24 Q. Even though -- so Scientology couldn't 25 even change their policies while Mr. Hubbard was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 774 1 alive, which he was in 1981 and 1982, is that your 2 testimony? 3 A. He was supposed to be the only one that 4 could change them, not Scientology. 5 Q. My question is -- you're certainly not 6 here testifying that what occurred in 1981 and 1982 7 with regard to the creation of RTC and CSI and the 8 reorganization of Scientology was not approved by 9 Mr. Hubbard. You're not testifying that are you? 10 A. No. 11 MR. WEINBERG: The court reporter has to 12 make a tape change. 13 THE WITNESS: I'll take a piss break. 14 (Recess from 5:49 until 5:51 p.m.) 15 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing back to Sandy the 16 subpoena and check. 17 MR. HERTZBERG: He's not ready, okay? 18 MR. DANDAR: For the Stacy Young 19 subpoena. I will accept it when you change it 20 to Stacy Brooks because that's not her legal 21 name. 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. Well, if we're 23 going to put that on the record, I'll change 24 it right now. We'll do it by hand. 25 MR. DANDAR: You can't change a check by SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 775 1 hand. 2 MR. WEINBERG: What's the problem? 3 MR. DANDAR: Just change the subpoena and 4 check to Stacy Brooks and then I can do that. 5 That's all. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Just take the subpoena. 7 We'll get another check. 8 MR. HERTZBERG: This is just -- you're 9 doing this on an expedited basis. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not sure I even have 11 to have a check. 12 MR. DANDAR: What's expedited about her? 13 MR. HERTZBERG: Because it's relevant to 14 him. Now you're playing games. This is all 15 games playing. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know what her name 17 is but -- 18 MR. DANDAR: Oh, you want this produced 19 tomorrow morning? 20 MR. HERTZBERG: That's what the subpoena 21 says. 22 MR. DANDAR: I didn't agree to that. I 23 tell you what, I didn't agree to that but I 24 will do my best to comply. All right? I 25 can't guarantee anything. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 776 1 MR. HERTZBERG: We know that all right. 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the video 3 record. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q. Now, all FSO staff are Sea Org members, 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And as a Sea Org member, they can go on a 9 Sea Org mission, right? 10 A. Yes, if they are -- if they hold the 11 qualifications to do that. 12 Q. Can FSO send a mission to RTC or CSI? 13 A. Not as itself but FSO staff may be used on 14 the mission but the organization itself would not 15 send the mission. 16 Q. Why not, why can't they do that? 17 A. Because you don't send missions up, you 18 only send missions out or down. 19 Q. So you mean RTC is at the top? 20 A. No. It's by Sea Org. That's where the 21 top of the Sea Org is. 22 Q. Now, what do you mean that that's where 23 the top of the Sea Org is at RTC? 24 A. Because that's where Captain Miscavige is 25 and that's where -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 777 1 Q. And why is Captain Miscavige, as you call 2 him, at RTC? 3 A. Because he wanted to go there. It's sort 4 of like the question where does a 400-pound gorilla 5 sleep? Wherever it wants to. 6 Q. Isn't he there because RTC is at the -- 7 has been -- has been given the right and the 8 responsibility and the power to maintain the purity 9 and the integrity of Scientology, isn't that why 10 David Miscavige is at RTC? 11 A. No, it's quite the opposite. 12 Q. What do you mean quite the opposite? 13 A. If I may use the parallel of what 14 Mr. Hubbard used for commodore, the flagship of any 15 fleet is where the commodore resides. The power of 16 Scientology was always where Mr. Miscavige resided. 17 When he was chairman of the board at ASI, we were 18 the top of the heap. When he moved to RTC, it 19 became the top of the heap. The top of the 20 Scientology heap was where Mr. Miscavige is. He 21 does not go there because it is the top of the 22 heap, it's the top of the heap because he goes 23 there. 24 Q. What are the responsibilities that David 25 Miscavige -- you're the expert. What are the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 778 1 responsibilities that the chairman of the board of 2 RTC has? 3 A. As chairman of the board, that's a -- 4 Q. I'm just asking you as an expert, what are 5 the responsibilities that the chairman of the board 6 of the RTC has? 7 A. Whatever he wants. 8 Q. That is because -- 9 A. Because he's a 400-pound gorilla and he 10 can sleep whenever he wants. 11 Q. Or is it because of the corporate 12 structure of the RTC? 13 A. Corporate structure has nothing to do with 14 the powers of David Miscavige. 15 Q. That's your testimony tomorrow? 16 A. I wasn't planning to make that statement 17 but if you want me to I will. 18 Q. And that's based on your experience in 19 Scientology in the last ten years? 20 A. Experience as well as you can see it in 21 the documents. 22 Q. Right. Now, when did David Miscavige 23 become the chairman of the board of the RTC? 24 A. I don't remember exactly, what was that, 25 nineteen -- maybe 1985. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 779 1 Q. All right. And you were not in the RTC at 2 that point, right? 3 A. I was never in the RTC. 4 Q. You didn't observe David Miscavige carry 5 out his responsibilities as the chairman of RTC on 6 a day-to-day basis, did you? 7 A. I was never there, no. 8 Q. Now, do you know if your -- if your 9 theory, your testimony with regard to religiosity 10 has ever been subjected to a peer review? 11 A. No, I don't know that. 12 Q. Did I -- has it ever -- do you know if the 13 theory has ever been tested at all, your theory, 14 anywhere? 15 A. No, I don't know that. 16 Q. Do you know if your theory that you're 17 going to testify about, religiosity, has been 18 generally accepted in any scientific community or 19 academic community or any community whatsoever? 20 A. Mr. Kent, I believe, covered it briefly 21 with something that he wrote but I don't have an 22 exact recall on it. That's as close as I could 23 come. 24 Q. Now, you testified that David Miscavige 25 was -- was not in the Sea Org at ASI, is that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 780 1 right? 2 A. No, I did not say that. 3 Q. But I think I heard you testify that he 4 was the top of the heap when he was at ASI, right? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. But the Sea Org had no responsibility at 7 ASI? 8 A. No, that's not what I testified. 9 Q. What did you testify to? 10 A. Okay. We'll try it again. ASI was not a 11 Sea Org organization. Although all of its members 12 were members of the Sea Org, we carried no ranks or 13 Sea Org designation of ranks in any of our job 14 titles, nor did we wear any Sea Org uniforms. 15 Therefore, our Sea Org rank had nothing to do with 16 our ASI position. So while he may have had a Sea 17 Org rank, I may have had a Sea Org rank, somebody 18 else at ASI had a Sea Org rank, it did not carry 19 any weight as it does in a Sea Org organization 20 that operates as a Sea Org organization, such as 21 the FSO, advanced organization, et cetera. 22 Q. What was his Sea Org rank when he was in 23 charge of ASI? 24 A. He had no Sea Org rank in charge of ASI. 25 Q. So in 1980, 1981, 1982, whenever it was, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 781 1 '83, David Miscavige did not have a Sea Org rank, 2 is that right? 3 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 4 A. He may have had a Sea Org rank during 5 that time but it was not prevalent in ASI. 6 Q. What was his Sea Org rank, I'm asking you? 7 In the time period before he went to RTC, what was 8 his Sea Org rank? 9 A. I don't know what his Sea Org rank was. 10 Q. Wasn't it lieutenant JG? 11 A. At one point I know it was but I don't 12 know what it was when he went to RTC. I know he 13 just jumped from lieutenant JG to suddenly becoming 14 captain. 15 Q. But he still controlled the Sea org, is 16 that what you're saying, even though he didn't have 17 a Sea Org rank in ASI? Is that what your testimony 18 is? 19 A. No, I didn't say that. 20 Q. Well, who controlled the Sea Org while 21 David Miscavige was at ASI? 22 A. That was the period of power change that 23 went on -- in fact, what was at issue at ASI was 24 finally who was going to control the Sea Org, 25 whether it was David Miscavige or Pat Broker. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 782 1 Q. What was Landon Spurlock's rank? 2 A. I believe he was a warrant officer. 3 Q. What was Kathy Bleka's rank? 4 A. I think she was a petty officer. 5 Q. What was Marty Rathbun's rank? 6 A. I don't know Marty's rank. Again, we did 7 not refer to each other by any Sea Org ranks. 8 Q. You were referred by your position in the 9 organization, correct? 10 A. Right. If you were just director of 11 communications that was your title, no Sea Org 12 rank. 13 Q. And that's -- that's what your 14 responsibility was as director of communications? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What -- when you testified at the 17 beginning that -- the familiarity with the command 18 lines, were you just talking about basically the 19 Sea Org? Is that what you were talking about? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Well, what were you talking about? Is 22 there some other opinion there? 23 A. Well, there is other command lines besides 24 just the Sea Org command lines and that's the 25 command lines that have been published, for SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 783 1 example, in the booklet on command lines. 2 Q. And those are what? 3 A. That's how it moves down from WDC through 4 management, you know, to various organizations. 5 Q. How about from RTC to CSI to the various 6 churches, is that a command line? 7 A. RTC doesn't like to say it's a command 8 line since they only monitor the trademarks. The 9 command line is supposed to start only with WDC. 10 In fact, if you look -- 11 Q. When you say WDC, you mean CSI, NCSI, is 12 that what you're talking about? 13 A. Yes. And so the command chart booklet 14 shows no line from RTC to WDC. The lines actually 15 start with WDC. 16 Q. Except that CSI gets its ability to use 17 the marks from RTC, correct? 18 A. The licenses granted by RTC, yes. 19 Q. So is that essentially -- when you say the 20 organization and command lines of Scientology, it's 21 essentially what you generally described with 22 regard to the various organizations, is that what 23 you're talking about command lines? 24 A. If you're saying if I've described it the 25 way I've described it, I have to say yes. I don't SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 784 1 know what else to say to that question. 2 Q. Well, I mean is there something else that 3 you haven't told us about, you know, about your 4 opinion concerning the -- your familiarity with the 5 command lines that you plan to say tomorrow? 6 A. No. I think we've covered it several 7 times. 8 Q. Are you going to be asked to offer any 9 opinion as to Lisa McPherson? 10 A. Now, that's going to be up to -- 11 Q. I'm asking you. I don't know what else I 12 can do than to ask you. 13 A. I -- I don't know. As I've testified 14 before, I don't know Lisa McPherson. I'm not ready 15 to offer an opinion about Lisa McPherson. 16 Q. I'm not trying to quarrel with -- what I'm 17 asking you is the whole purpose of the deposition 18 is for us to have the opportunity to find out in 19 advance what it is you're going to be offering an 20 opinion on. My question is are you going to be 21 offering an opinion as to what occurred with regard 22 to Lisa McPherson? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are you going to be offering an opinion as 25 to what, if any, role any particular individual had SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 785 1 with regard to Lisa McPherson? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are you going to be offering any opinions 4 as to David Miscavige tomorrow? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What are those opinions? 7 A. Well, as to his position in the Sea Org, 8 which I've been covering already today. 9 Q. Other than that? That doesn't sound like 10 much of an opinion. That's just a statement that 11 you're going to make that in his position he's the 12 captain of Sea Org, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Well, are you going to be offering any 15 opinions as to David Miscavige, what David 16 Miscavige does, as far as you know? 17 A. Well, I've been asked and whether or not I 18 get asked it again will be up to Mr. Dandar, but I 19 have been asked whether -- you know, how report 20 lines occur when people find out about certain 21 things, how do reports move, what priorities do 22 they take? And as an example that I gave, for 23 example -- 24 THE WITNESS: Are we into attorney work 25 product here? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 786 1 MR. DANDAR: No, give whatever your 2 opinions are. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Cool. 4 A. For example, if I said -- if I were in 5 the Detroit, you know, if I was in the Detroit 6 organization and two things happened this week; 7 one, we were given a million dollars and two, a 8 staff member shot himself or -- yeah, let's say a 9 staff member shot himself at home. Which one gets 10 reported first? Well, normally people think the 11 good news gets reported first. Wrong, the bad news 12 goes up immediately, right now, out the door. The 13 million dollars goes later, which gives you a sense 14 of priority of what moves up the lines. In fact, 15 there is even material from RTC which says which is 16 to be things that are to be reported immediately to 17 RTC, and you don't usually find that sort of 18 urgency put into communications. 19 Q. Okay. As to Mr. Miscavige, anything in 20 particular that you believe you're going to testify 21 about? 22 A. Just how reports move and who finds out 23 about reports and what's the -- what's the 24 probability of people knowing about things. And 25 all I can do is tell how it was done. As far as SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 787 1 percipient knowledge, I can't say. I just know how 2 the organization has for the last 40 years handled 3 reports. 4 Q. But as you sit here today, you're not 5 going to be asked your opinion as to whether or not 6 David Miscavige ordered -- made any orders with 7 regard to Lisa McPherson or did anything with 8 regard to Lisa McPherson? You're not going to be 9 asked an opinion as to that, is that right? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Well, I'm asking you. That's what -- I 12 mean that's what this is all about. 13 A. I have -- I don't know specific questions 14 any more than I can anticipate your specific 15 questions, Mr. Weinberg. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well then, Ken, I'll ask 17 you. Is he going to be offered -- is he going 18 to be asked any opinions with regard to what 19 happened with regard to Lisa McPherson? I 20 mean if I -- 21 MR. DANDAR: He's going to be asked if, 22 based upon his knowledge and experience, what 23 role, if any, David Miscavige would have 24 played in the management of the public 25 relations flap caused by Lisa McPherson, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 788 1 including her confinement. 2 Q. And your opinion on that? Do you have an 3 opinion on that? 4 A. I can offer an opinion how -- 5 Q. Can you tell us what it is? 6 A. Can I finish my sentence? How such flaps 7 are handled. And now I'm anticipating your 8 previous question, is that -- 9 Q. Let me just interrupt. His question is 10 very specific. That he plans to ask you your 11 opinion with regard to David Miscavige's role with 12 what would have happened, what he would have done 13 vis-a-vis a public relations flap like Lisa 14 McPherson. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. What's your opinion? 17 A. An incident like that where a person goes 18 Type III, downtown, ends up engaged with the 19 police, is the first level of flap that takes it 20 beyond the ordinary. At that point, when that sort 21 of flap happens, Department 20 is called in 22 immediately. It goes up the lines to OSA 23 Department 20 and it also, to the degree we're 24 dealing with a Type III, it would go up the RTC 25 lines immediately. And in these days of e-mails -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 789 1 back in the old days it would have been a telex. 2 In today's technology, it would be immediate e-mail 3 with ccs to various people, such as the senior CS. 4 The way that such things are handled is 5 that when they are reported, they must be reported, 6 not just as somebody killed themselves today -- I'm 7 not saying this is the Lisa McPherson, but going 8 back to my example of Detroit. Somebody killed 9 themselves today, that's what's called a flap, an 10 alarming report. You must report it as somebody 11 killed themselves today but here's what we've done 12 to handle it. We talked to the chief of police of 13 such and such, we got the attorney on such, we 14 dealt with the mother, dealt with the newspaper. 15 You go through all these handlings and you show 16 what you've done and then you show what you are 17 proposing else to be done. This goes up as to how 18 you're doing it because what you want to avoid is 19 an order back down. 20 So this would have gone up to OSA because 21 it involves external entities such as the police, 22 it would have gone up RTC lines because it's a 23 technical matter, we've got a Type III going. And 24 what you have to do is make your proposals for it. 25 Whether or not you get an order back from a senior SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 790 1 echelon basically depends upon how well you have 2 handled it and how well you have proposed you're 3 handling it. If you what Hubbard calls handle the 4 hell out of it, you hear nothing, and that's the -- 5 that's the greatest blessing that every staff 6 member can always hope for, you hear nothing other 7 than just good, keep it up, or maybe just fine, 8 thank you. The worst thing you can get is a flap, 9 you've just gotten orders, et cetera. I don't know 10 what was issued. I can just know what has been the 11 tradition for 40 years and how the organization 12 would respond. 13 Q. The answer to Mr. Dandar's question is you 14 don't know and couldn't know what, if anything, 15 went to David Miscavige with regard to Lisa 16 McPherson, right? 17 A. Percipiently, no. 18 Q. As an expert, you couldn't either because, 19 if I understood what you said, all you said was is 20 that there -- there may have been or might have 21 been a report to OSA, which is in RTC, but whether 22 it went -- where it went from there, you wouldn't 23 know. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Depending on the circumstances, would you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 791 1 A. It would have gone to OSA and to RTC, and, 2 in my opinion, David Miscavige would know about 3 somebody that went Type III in -- this is so 4 important, as I tried to explain to Mr. Dandar. It 5 depends where it happens. Somebody that goes 6 Type III in Detroit is not the same thing as 7 somebody going Type III in Clearwater. Clearwater 8 has been a powder keg for -- since day one, since 9 it came out of the closet as to what it really was, 10 that it wasn't the United Churches of Florida. It 11 is very volatile. And because it is volatile, 12 there are -- you report faster and it goes up 13 farther depending upon that. 14 I have no doubt David Miscavige would have 15 learned about a situation in Clearwater because it 16 is so sensitive, because they are gaining ground, 17 they are trying to gain influence, et cetera, as 18 opposed to Detroit. 19 Q. When would he have learned that? 20 A. When? 21 Q. Yeah, what's your opinion? And this is a 22 public, not a staff member. 23 A. No, public has nothing to do with it. The 24 fact she was in contact with the police downtown, 25 taking off her clothes, walking around, has been SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 792 1 picked up by an EMT and she's in the care of -- 2 however you want to cut it off that your report 3 goes up, it's because this is so volatile it would 4 have been -- I don't know when he would have 5 learned about it but it would have been on his 6 computer system within hours. 7 Q. So that's what your opinion is that you're 8 going to give tomorrow? 9 A. That I would give, yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Is there any other -- is 11 there any other opinion, Ken, since he doesn't 12 seem to know what they are going to be, that 13 you're going to ask him, opinion testimony? 14 A. I don't know what his questions will be. 15 Q. Well, see that's the whole purpose of this 16 and that's what the purpose of interrogatories are 17 and the deposition. 18 A. I understand. 19 Q. If you don't know, it doesn't do me much 20 good to ask him. I have to ask him. 21 MR. DANDAR: Where is the copies that I 22 had here, mine? 23 THE WITNESS: I didn't touch them. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Of what? 25 MR. DANDAR: My answers to -- oh. That's SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 793 1 it. That's it. And you've eaten into the 2 hour time tomorrow. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on a second. 4 MR. DANDAR: By ten minutes. Let's go. 5 We're done. So now you got 50 minutes 6 tomorrow morning. 7 THE WITNESS: Are you instructing me to 8 take off this? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, it's done. I don't 10 want to wear you out. 11 MR. HANES: Ken, I took -- we took at 12 least eight to nine minutes in breaks. I show 13 the time on the court reporter's screen to be 14 6:10. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I got one more question 16 I've got to ask. 17 MR. DANDAR: You can ask. 18 MR. HANES: Are you going to supplement 19 your interrogatory regarding Lisa McPherson 20 considering that's not on there? 21 MR. DANDAR: It's on there. 22 MR. HANES: Because you told the judge it 23 had nothing to do with us, number one. He 24 just testified to something that relates to 25 the individuals. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 794 1 MR. DANDAR: It has nothing to do with 2 the individuals. 3 MR. HANES: Oh, okay. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q. When you were in the GO, the USGO before 6 you were in the Sea Org, did you have authority to 7 order staff in local orgs? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did that include Sea Org members and ASHO 10 and AOLA? 11 A. Excuse me. Was I authorized to order into 12 the AOLA, is that what you say? 13 Q. Yes. In other words, did you have 14 authority to order staff in local orgs -- 15 A. Such as? 16 Q. -- including Sea Org members and the ASHO 17 or the AOLA? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. DANDAR: What time do you have, Sandy? 20 MR. POLLI: 6:10. 21 MR. WEINBERG: 6:10. 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. 23 (Recessed at 6:15 p.m.) 24 THEREUPON, the deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN 25 YOUNG was recessed at 6:10 p.m. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 795 1 NOTE: The original and one copy of the 2 foregoing deposition will be held by Mr. Weinberg; 3 copy to Mr. Dandar. 4 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing 5 of the deposition transcript will be handled by the 6 office of Mr. Kennan Dandar of the firm Dandar & 7 Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201, 8 Tampa, Florida. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97-01235 796 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 Volume V 3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the 4 foregoing deposition given by me on January 20, 5 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the following 6 corrections, if any, should be made in the 7 transcript: 8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Subject to the above corrections, if any, 19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing 20 deposition. 21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this 22 __________ day of ____________________, 2000. 23 24 ________________________________ 25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 797 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 COUNTY OF POLK 5 6 7 I, the undersigned authority, hereby 8 certify that the witness named herein personally 9 appeared before me and was duly sworn. 10 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 11 22nd day of January, 2000. 12 13 14 15 16 _________________________________ 17 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR 18 Notary Public - State of Florida 19 My Commission Expires: 10-23?03 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 798 1 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA 3 COUNTY OF POLK 4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter 6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared 8 before me for the taking of the foregoing 9 deposition, and that I was authorized to and did 10 stenographically and electronically report the 11 deposition; and that a review of the transcript was 12 requested; and that the transcript is a true and 13 complete record of my stenographic notes and 14 recordings thereof. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an 16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause, 17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party 18 connected with this litigation, nor am I 19 financially interested in the outcome of this 20 action. 21 DATED THIS 22nd day of January, 2000, at 22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida. 23 ________________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10-23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 1-20-00 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000