1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR December 21 & 22, 1999 25 168 1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 MS. NANCY FAGGIANELLI 12 Carlton, Fields, Ward, Emmanuel, Smith & Cutler, P.A. 13 Attorneys at Law One Harbour Place 14 Tampa, Florida 33601 15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 19 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 20 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 21 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko Ms. Stacy Brooks 23 Mr. Jesse Prince Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Marty Rathbun Ms. Lara Cartwright 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (via Internet) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 169 1 I N D E X 2 Volume II 3 December 21, 1999 4 WITNESS PAGE 5 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 6 Service Organization: 7 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG......... 171 9 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 344 10 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 345 11 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE.............. 346 12 13 14 EXHIBITS 15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 1...................... 237 16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 2...................... 255 17 Defendant's Exhibit No. 3...................... 297 18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 4...................... 315 19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 5...................... 332 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 170 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 14 deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, upon oral 15 examination in the above?styled cause, at the 16 instance of the Defendant Church of Scientology 17 Flag Service Organization, for the purposes of 18 discovery or use at trial or both, pursuant to 19 Florida Rules of Civil Procedure, proceedings 20 therefor were held before Susan D. Wasilewski, 21 Registered Professional Reporter, Certified 22 Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the 23 State of Florida at large, at the Wyndham 24 Westshore, 4860 West Kennedy Boulevard, Tampa, 25 Florida, on December 21, 1999, at 9:10 a.m. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 171 1 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 2 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. 3 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 4 had and taken: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 6 by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, having been previously duly sworn, 8 continued to testify as follows: 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Now, other than the library project with 12 Mr. Haney, did you do any other projects, work, for 13 Mr. Haney? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did anybody help you with regard to that 16 project, was that just all you? 17 A. Just me. 18 Q. Did you finish your work? 19 A. Well, I finished my part. If he wants to 20 do more, that's up to him. 21 Q. Well, I never asked you this but, you 22 know, briefly describe what the finished work 23 product was. 24 A. You did ask and I answered that, that I 25 had carried it to the point that I wanted to end SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 172 1 it. It was a point of ending and I gave it to him. 2 Q. But did you have everything cataloged by 3 then? 4 A. It was in a findable order. 5 Q. Was it in a chronological order? 6 A. No, it was just, you know, by categories 7 of things. 8 Q. Can you tell me some of the categories? 9 A. Oh, such as media, court cases and 1023s, 10 that sort of stuff. 11 Q. Well, how many documents, what's the 12 volume of the ?? of the documents in this library? 13 A. It's really hard to say because I was 14 putting them into binders and binders take up more 15 room than documents. 16 Q. Well, how many file ?? are they in file 17 cabinets? 18 A. No, just in binders. 19 Q. Sitting on shelves or what? 20 A. Well, shelves until I, you know, put some 21 into bankers boxes. 22 Q. How does one access them or what do you 23 do, is there some index or something? 24 A. No. I would just put tags on the outside, 25 you know, media. Like from somewhere just media SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 173 1 out of Europe, and I didn't even know what it said 2 because it would be in a foreign language, so I 3 would just put foreign language press together. 4 Q. How many bankers boxes? 5 A. Maybe 10. 6 Q. Were there any filing cabinets, too, or 7 was it just 10 bankers boxes? 8 A. No filing cabinets. 9 Q. So that's the full extent of the 10 documents, ten bankers boxes? 11 A. Roughly. 12 Q. And how many months did that take you to 13 do? 14 A. Well, again, I was not, as you were trying 15 to make it, as a full?time job. I was there for 16 about ?? doing this for about five, six months but 17 I was not, you know, like 9:00 to 5:00. 18 Q. So you basically just sort of rearranged 19 everything in a ?? and put it into some sort of 20 order that at least to you made sense? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you have health insurance? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are you on some sort of public assistance? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 174 1 Q. Do you know what I mean by that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How is it ?? are you paying for your 4 medical care? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is somebody helping you with regard to 7 that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Has Mr. Haney given you money with regard 10 to that? 11 A. No. I've answered that one before. 12 Q. I didn't ask you before whether Mr. Haney 13 was paying for your medical care, did I? 14 A. You asked me if Mr. Haney had given me any 15 other money for any other reasons. 16 Q. You know, the problem is that you are 17 so ?? try to be so precise as far as your answers. 18 The best example is Mr. and Mrs. Minton bought the 19 house ?? that I have to, as a result of that, ask 20 questions a number of times to ensure myself that 21 I'm actually getting an answer to. All right? 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. What is ?? what is the name of your 24 oncologist? 25 A. I consider that privileged. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 175 1 Q. So you're refusing to answer that 2 question? 3 A. That is true. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Are you instructing him not 5 to answer that question? 6 MR. DANDAR: He's refusing to answer. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm asking you are you 8 instructing him not to answer? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: And the basis of the 11 instruction is what? 12 MR. DANDAR: Privileged, privacy. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q. What is the name of the psychiatrist who 15 you saw for eight to ten sessions in 1999? 16 A. I would consider that privileged. 17 Q. You're refusing to answer that question? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Are you instructing him not 20 to answer that question? 21 MR. DANDAR: It's totally inappropriate 22 to ask an expert witness what doctors he's 23 seeing. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know what, Ken, 25 if somebody ?? if you're calling a witness to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 176 1 testify and trying to qualify him as an expert 2 and this year he's been undergoing psychiatric 3 analysis and treatment, it seems to me that 4 that's relevant and I should ?? and we should 5 be able to discover what the nature of that 6 treatment is and whether or not it's 7 something ?? whether or not he suffers from 8 some sort of mental imbalance that would 9 disqualify him as a witness, any kind of a 10 witness. 11 MR. DANDAR: He's asserting the 12 privilege, he won't answer the question. 13 MR. WEINBERG: And you're instructing him 14 not to answer the question, right? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Based on what? 17 MR. DANDAR: Privilege. 18 MR. WEINBERG: What privilege? 19 MR. DANDAR: Privacy. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q. Do you have your own computer? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And is it portable, laptop? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And did somebody buy that for you or give SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 177 1 that to you? 2 A. I have a little Mac that I've had for 3 years. 4 Q. And what do you do with your computer, 5 what do you use it for? 6 A. For ?? I guess I don't understand the 7 question. I mean I write on it. 8 Q. Well, did someone buy that computer for 9 you? 10 A. I bought it. 11 Q. While you were in Washington? 12 A. No, I bought that in San Diego six years 13 ago. 14 Q. So you use it for word processing? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you use it for any other purpose? 17 A. No, it's not got enough RAM. 18 Q. Do you use it ?? do you hook up to the 19 Internet with it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So you don't use it for e?mail purposes or 22 anything like that? 23 A. Not enough RAM. 24 Q. Do you have any e?mail or Internet 25 capability at this point? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 178 1 A. Do I? 2 Q. Yeah, do you have some computer somewhere 3 that ?? that you use to communicate with people on 4 the Internet? 5 A. Mostly libraries is what I've ?? what I've 6 used. 7 Q. And do you ?? how frequently do you go on 8 the Internet? 9 A. It's not a frequency ratio, whenever I 10 feel like it. 11 Q. When is the last time you communicated 12 with somebody on the Internet? 13 A. A few days ago. 14 Q. And who were you communicating with? 15 A. My son. 16 Q. When is the last time you communicated 17 with somebody connected with Scientology or your 18 Scientology work or cases on the Internet? 19 A. Last week. 20 Q. Who was that? 21 A. Mr. Dandar. 22 Q. Did you print out ?? do you have ?? did 23 you print out the message? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was it you to him or him to you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 179 1 A. I think it was me to him. 2 Q. With regard to setting up this deposition? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. DANDAR: Object. He's not allowed to 5 ask you any ?? never mind. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: Never mind. 8 Q. Prior to Mr. Dandar, have you 9 communicated on the Internet this year with 10 Mr. Prince? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Minton? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Stacy? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What other people connected with your ?? 17 you know, with an effort involving Scientology? 18 A. One attorney. 19 Q. Who is that? 20 A. I'm not going to disclose it since I've 21 not been named in the case. 22 Q. The reason you're not going to disclose it 23 is what? 24 A. Work product. 25 MR. DANDAR: Work product. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 180 1 Q. The name of the person? 2 A. Attorney work product. I'm not going 3 to ?? 4 MR. WEINBERG: You're instructing him not 5 to answer that question? 6 MR. DANDAR: He's not going to answer the 7 question. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Just tell me, are you 9 instructing him not to answer the question? 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q. So Stacy, Prince, some unidentified 13 attorney that you're asserting some privilege as 14 to ?? what other people that have to do with 15 Scientology? 16 A. Jesse and I haven't even discussed 17 Scientology. It's been hey bro, when will I see 18 you? I mean you shifted your question. Before, 19 you just said talking on the Internet. 20 Q. Well, tell me talking on the Internet. 21 Stacy, Prince, some unidentified lawyer. 22 A. My son. 23 Q. Your son. 24 A. My first wife. I think that's it. 25 Q. What about Dan Leipold? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 181 1 A. I'm going to decline that. 2 Q. You're going to decline it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the reason you're going to decline it 5 is what? 6 MR. DANDAR: Work product. 7 A. Work product. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Can he answer 9 and not you? Are you under oath, Ken? 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm objecting. I'm the one 11 that objects. 12 MR. WEINBERG: No, you didn't object. 13 What you did was answer. 14 A. I answered the same time as he did, I 15 think. 16 Q. No, no, he ?? it's not for him to answer, 17 Mr. Young. It's for you to answer unless he would 18 like to go under oath and I can question him about 19 what he did on the Internet. 20 All right. Now the reason that you will 21 not answer whether or not you have communicated on 22 the Internet with Dan Leipold in 1999 is work 23 product? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. DANDAR: Objection; work product. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 182 1 Q. Okay. Now ?? 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's so preposterous that 3 it defies comprehension that you're objecting 4 to work product as to whether or not ?? I 5 didn't ask him what his communication was, as 6 to whether he had any communication on the 7 Internet. And that's a work product 8 objection? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it is. 10 MR. WEINBERG: You need to go and look at 11 the rule, Ken. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 Q. But I guess, in light of that objection, 14 that sort of tells us who this unidentified lawyer 15 is, right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Objection, work product. 17 Don't answer the question. 18 Q. All right. Who else? The unidentified 19 lawyer, Prince, Stacy, your family members, who 20 else have you talked to, communicated with on the 21 Internet this year? 22 A. With regard to Scientology, that's it? 23 Q. Well, we weren't going to limit it to 24 that, remember? 25 A. I don't think you have a right to intrude SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 183 1 into any personal correspondence I might have with 2 people. 3 Q. Well ?? well, you just said that, you 4 know, Jesse was just yo, man, brother or something 5 like that. You consider that had to do with 6 Scientology or not? 7 A. Well, Jesse is a prominent person in all 8 of this and you want to know about that. 9 Q. He's a prominent antiScientologist, right? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So that's it as far as people that have 12 worked against Scientology in the last year that 13 you've communicated with through the Internet? 14 A. I can't respond to that ?? that 15 characterization of that question. 16 Q. For some semantic reason? 17 A. Well, you're saying working against. 18 You're loading the question. If you want to reword 19 it I'll answer it. 20 Q. All right. Well, you've been working 21 against Scientology for what, seven years now? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You've been paid to testify against 24 Scientology for what, seven years now? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 184 1 Q. How many years? 2 A. I ?? the way you're loading your question, 3 if you want to reword it, I'll answer it 4 differently. 5 Q. You're just not able to answer that 6 question? 7 A. Not the way you load them. 8 Q. Now ?? 9 A. I can't respond to ?? 10 Q. You don't have a question now. Okay? You 11 need to ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Wait. 13 Q. You need to not talk when there is not a 14 question on the table. 15 MR. DANDAR: You don't need to give him 16 instruction. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yes I do. 18 MR. DANDAR: Just ask the question. 19 MR. WEINBERG: If he wants to make 20 speeches, I will tell him to ?? to be quiet. 21 MR. DANDAR: You can object to his 22 speeches. 23 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm doing. 24 MR. DANDAR: Don't instruct him. 25 MR. WEINBERG: You know what, yes, I am SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 185 1 going to instruct him. He has no right to ?? 2 he has no right to talk if there is not a 3 question pending. 4 MR. DANDAR: We'll just do that one more 5 time and then we leave. We'll adjourn. 6 THE WITNESS: I do have a right to 7 complete my thought, don't I? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Your thought was 9 completed. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm talking to my attorney, 11 sir. 12 MR. DANDAR: You didn't complete your 13 answer? 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I was trying to 15 complete my answer. 16 MR. DANDAR: Then complete your answer. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no, no, no. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q. Before Mr. Haney gave you a car ?? 20 MR. DANDAR: Is there a phone here? 21 Q. ?? what car were you using, sir? 22 A. There wasn't a car that I was using. 23 MR. DANDAR: Give me Judge Moody's phone 24 number. 25 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Let's just go. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 186 1 Is that what you want? Is that what you want, 2 Ken? Because you go look at the last question 3 and you will see that he completed his answer 4 and now all you're doing is playing games. 5 Jsut stop. 6 MR. DANDAR: He said he didn't. 7 MR. WEINBERG: He did and I started 8 asking other questions. Just stop. Hang up 9 the phone and stop. 10 MR. DANDAR: You can keep asking 11 questions, go ahead. 12 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not, not with you 13 on the phone. This is what you did in probate 14 court the other day. Are you going to sit on 15 the phone? We either go off the record and 16 stop the deposition, which is fine, if that's 17 what you would like to do, but we're not doing 18 it on the phone. Is that what you want to do? 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Is that what you want to 21 do? 22 MR. DANDAR: I am now off the phone. I 23 have his phone number. Continue your 24 questioning, please. 25 MR. WEINBERG: There is a question and it SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 187 1 is pending. 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, then we'll have to 3 read it back, I guess, unless the witness 4 remembers it. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's kind of hard to 6 concentrate with you talking. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q. Before Mr. Haney gave you his car to 9 drive, which you're still driving, what car did you 10 use? 11 A. I answered that and it can be read back. 12 Q. Well, I couldn't hear it because 13 Mr. Dandar was talking. 14 A. I'm sorry. You were looking at me, I 15 thought you heard. 16 Q. How could I hear with him talking on the 17 phone? What's the answer? 18 A. The answer was I didn't have a car before 19 that. 20 Q. So how did you travel across country, what 21 did you travel in? 22 A. A rental car. 23 Q. And who rented it for you? 24 A. Mr. Haney. 25 Q. And I thought I had asked you before what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 188 1 Mr. Haney had provided for you. I don't remember 2 you telling me a rental car. 3 A. It's not provided for me. It's not 4 something I keep but a rental car for driving. 5 Q. Well, who ?? so this rental car was for 6 somebody else? 7 A. No, it was for me to take a trip, it 8 wasn't for me. 9 Q. All right. Well, when did Mr. Haney get 10 you the rental car? 11 A. When I went to Washington, D.C. 12 Q. This is before he gave you his own car? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what kind of rental car was it? 15 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 16 Q. So he made all the arrangements for you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How long did you drive that rental car? 19 A. A few weeks. 20 Q. So it wasn't just in Washington. You also 21 drove it in Columbus as well? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then he replaced that with another 24 rental car or with his car? 25 A. That was replaced with his ?? with the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 189 1 car ?? 2 Q. Okay. Now, prior to the rental car, when 3 you made your way from Washington to Columbus, what 4 did you use for transportation? 5 A. A rental car. 6 Q. That Mr. Haney got for you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So that was a second rental car? 9 A. I don't remember if it was second or the 10 same. 11 Q. Well, how many rental cars have you had 12 that Mr. Haney provided for you? 13 A. Two. 14 Q. So the first rental car was rented in 15 Washington? 16 A. No. In Columbus. 17 Q. How did it get to Washington? 18 A. I drove it. 19 Q. So it ?? you flew to Columbus, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. At Mr. Haney's expense? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Who paid for your ?? your flight to 24 Columbus? 25 A. We've gone over this. I paid for my SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 190 1 flight. 2 Q. Where did that money come from? 3 A. We've gone over this. 4 Q. Well, I'm confused now. All right? Where 5 did that money come from? 6 A. I paid for that flight when I told you I 7 had dropped off Jesse, San Francisco, Columbus to 8 Well Spring. 9 Q. All right. But that money had come from 10 Mr. Minton, didn't it? 11 A. We've gone over this. No. You keep 12 trying to make this point. I keep saying no. 13 Q. That came from your own resources, is that 14 right? 15 A. For the third time, yes. 16 Q. Now ?? so then Mr. Haney rented a car in 17 Columbus and you ?? then you drove it back to 18 Washington? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Picked up the dog and drove back to 21 Columbus? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Well, what did you do with it in 24 Washington then? 25 A. I picked up the cat. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 191 1 Q. You already had the dog? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So the dog flew with you on the airplane? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So you and the dog drove to 6 Washington and you picked up the cat and drove back 7 to Columbus, is that right, is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How long did that ?? how long did all that 10 process take? 11 A. Which process? 12 Q. Going from Columbus to Seattle to pick up 13 the cat and back to Columbus. 14 A. Including staying in Seattle? 15 Q. Yeah, I want to know how long you had the 16 car that Mr. Haney rented for you in Columbus? 17 A. A few weeks. 18 Q. Okay. Then you got back to Columbus and 19 did you give up the rental car? 20 A. At some point, yes. 21 Q. And then at that point, what, Mr. Haney 22 was transporting you from place to place? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How did you get from place to place? 25 A. For a while I was just there without a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 192 1 car. I didn't need to go place to place. 2 Q. He paid for cabs or anything like that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So then you rented a second car and drove 5 to Washington? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And back, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Drove that for a period of time and 10 ultimately he replaced that with his own car, is 11 that right? 12 A. We just keep covering the same ground, 13 don't we? 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Well, I mean if you would have told me 17 something about these rental cars below ?? before, 18 then we wouldn't be covering this ground. You 19 didn't ?? you didn't mention them before. 20 A. No, you keep asking me the same cars for 21 the second or third time. 22 Q. All right. Is there anything else that 23 Mr. Minton ?? I'm sorry. 24 MR. DANDAR: Excuse me? 25 Q. Is there anything else that Mr. Haney SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 193 1 provided for you other than the room, $200 a week, 2 the two rental cars, his own car, anything else 3 that we didn't go over before? 4 A. You forgot the computer. 5 Q. And the computer. Anything else? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did Mr. Haney, in the period of time that 8 you were with him, pay for any of your medical 9 expenses, including the heart attack? 10 A. No. 11 MR. WEINBERG: That's ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, don't do that. 13 Q. Now, in nineteen ?? in the fall of 1995, 14 where were you living? 15 A. Probably west Seattle. 16 Q. Well, in particular, in November and 17 December 1995, where were you living? 18 A. Probably west Seattle. 19 Q. Well, do you remember actually where you 20 were living? 21 A. It's my best guess right now. 22 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you were doing 23 in November and December of 1995? 24 A. That might have been when I was working on 25 the FACT Net case. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 194 1 Q. Working with whom on the FACT Net case? 2 A. Fagrid Benson in Denver. 3 Q. Who was the lawyer? 4 A. I don't remember which ?? I don't remember 5 his name. 6 Q. Tom Kelly? 7 A. Yeah, I think it's Tom Kelly, yeah. 8 Q. But you don't remember if that's what you 9 were doing? 10 A. It seems approximate what I might have 11 been doing. 12 Q. And was your wife living with you at that 13 time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you remember precisely what she was 16 doing at that point in time? 17 A. Taking care of cats. 18 Q. Now, you never met Lisa McPherson, did 19 you? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You didn't know her, did you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You never talked to her, did you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You were not in Clearwater, Florida in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 195 1 November or December of 1995, were you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. You were not with her at any time in the 4 Fort Harrison Hotel, is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You never visited her at her job at AM ?? 7 AMC Publishing in Clearwater, did you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You were not her friend, were you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You never ?? you've never spoken to any of 12 her fellow workers at AMC Publishing, have you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And you have no personal knowledge as to 15 what happened with regard to Lisa McPherson in 16 November or December of 1995, do you, sir? 17 A. You mean in the sense of percipient 18 empirical? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. No. 21 Q. When was the last time that you were in 22 Clearwater? 23 A. I can't give you a year but if more than 24 ten years ago will suffice for you. 25 Q. How many times have you ever been in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 196 1 Clearwater? 2 A. Oh, gee, I don't know, several times when 3 I used to make trips there. Even ?? 4 Q. You were never on staff at Flag, were you? 5 A. No. I even met Mr. Rinder there one time. 6 Q. So the last time that you were in 7 Clearwater was sometime while you were still in the 8 Church of Scientology? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you ever meet Fannie McPherson? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you ever talk to Fannie McPherson? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever met any family member of 15 Lisa McPherson? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know Janis Johnson? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know Alain Kartuzinski? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You have no idea where David Miscavige was 22 in November or December of 1995, do you? 23 A. Percipient knowledge, no. 24 Q. When you say percipient knowledge, because 25 that's a term that a lot of people don't know, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 197 1 you're talking about actual knowledge, is that what 2 you're talking about? 3 A. As in see, speak on the phone, direct 4 knowledge, as opposed to I got a real good chance 5 of guessing that Clinton is in Washington right 6 now, that type of speculative knowledge. 7 Q. Right. Right. Now, when were you first 8 hired in this case? 9 A. Three years ago, three and a half years 10 ago, somewhere in that vicinity. 11 Q. What month and year? 12 A. I don't recall. It's been, you know, a 13 few years ago. 14 Q. You didn't do anything to refresh your 15 recollection as to when you were hired, sir? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Well, what would you need to see to 18 refresh your recollection as to when it was that 19 you were first hired in this case? 20 A. To refresh my memory, I'd probably ask 21 Mr. Dandar. 22 Q. Well, is there some document that would 23 indicate when you were first hired? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you sign some agreement? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 198 1 A. I don't have anything like that, no. 2 Q. I didn't ask you whether you had it. I 3 asked you whether you had signed it. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you receive any correspondence from 6 Mr. Dandar? 7 A. I don't recall any. 8 Q. Never? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you and your wife receive any 11 correspondence from Mr. Dandar with regard to your 12 and/or her participation in this case? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you ever sign any documents or 15 agreements with regard to your participation in 16 this case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. As far as you know, did Stacy? 19 A. As far as I know, she didn't. 20 Q. Who contacted you to work on this case? 21 A. Mr. Dandar. 22 Q. And how did he contact you? 23 A. By telephone. 24 Q. Where? 25 A. Who? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 199 1 Q. Where were you when he contacted you? 2 A. In west Seattle. 3 Q. Were you in Bob Minton's house at that 4 point? 5 A. Mr. and Mrs. Minton's house? No. 6 Q. You were in some other house at that 7 point? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know how it came to be that 10 Mr. Dandar gave you a call? 11 A. I don't recall. He just found us and 12 called up and introduced himself and said he would, 13 you know, like to talk, talk to us. 14 Q. As a witness? 15 A. Well, he said he wanted to talk. I'm just 16 saying the first conversation. 17 Q. But in that first conversation he didn't 18 say he wanted to pay you anything? 19 A. No. 20 Q. He just wanted to talk to you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did he tell you what he wanted to talk to 23 you about? 24 A. Well, he identified himself as an attorney 25 on a case. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 200 1 Q. Did he say what case? 2 A. The McPherson case. 3 Q. Did you know anything about that case? 4 A. I had heard about it but I wasn't 5 following it that closely. 6 Q. How had you heard about it? 7 A. Probably back in the Internet somewhere 8 back then. 9 Q. But you don't remember precisely how you 10 had heard about it? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Or from whom you had heard about it? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did he tell you in particular what he 15 wanted to talk to you about, what issues? 16 A. No. You've got mail? 17 Q. How long was that first conversation? 18 A. Oh, maybe ten minutes. 19 Q. Was Stacy part of the conversation? 20 A. I don't think she was. I don't recall her 21 being part of the conversation, the first one. 22 Q. Did he say he wanted to talk to you and 23 Stacy or just you? 24 A. I don't recall that, that part. 25 Q. Were there other conversations, other SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 201 1 telephone calls with Mr. Dandar at that point? 2 A. When you say at that point, I'm not sure 3 what you mean. 4 Q. Well, following this first telephone 5 conversation, were there other communications with 6 him? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, what is your best estimate of when 9 this was? We're in December of 1999 now. 10 A. Three and a half years ago. As I said, my 11 best way would be to ask Mr. Dandar. 12 Q. Well, tell me about the next conversation 13 that you remember you had with Mr. Dandar after the 14 first one. 15 A. Well, he came ?? he flew up to see us and 16 met with us. 17 Q. He flew to Seattle? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Was anybody with him? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he send anything before he came? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did he send you a copy of the complaint? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did he send you a copy of any proposed SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 202 1 amendments to the complaint? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Excuse me? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did he send you any records that ?? from 6 the case? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did he give you any discovery from the 9 case? 10 A. No. 11 Q. When he came to Seattle, did he show you a 12 copy of the complaint? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did he review with you any documents from 15 the case? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did he review with you any proposed 18 amendments to the complaint? 19 A. No. 20 Q. When I say you ?? 21 A. Can I just walk, give me about a 22 two?minute walk? 23 Q. Sure. Can I finish this one thought? 24 When I say you, I'm referring to your knowledge 25 about you and Stacy as it relates to documents that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 203 1 you saw or tasks that you were asked. 2 A. Well, the meeting was with her and me and 3 him and so that was a collective ?? collective 4 answer. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a two?minute 7 break. 8 THE WITNESS: Sure. I just need to walk 9 just a few minutes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: We'll take five minutes. 11 (Recess from 1:47 to 1:55 p.m.) 12 THE WITNESS: I have a question for him. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q. During the break, did you speak with Jesse 16 Prince? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. Did you speak with Jesse Prince about the 19 deposition? 20 A. Well, he just said how you doing, you 21 know, physically, how are you holding up? 22 Q. Well, he gave you some advice, didn't he? 23 A. He said listen, if you just need to take a 24 break, take a break. I said I'm doing fine. 25 Q. Didn't he say ?? didn't he say something SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 204 1 more than that to you? Did he talk about any of 2 your answers with you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Now, did Mr. Dandar, in this telephone 5 conversation that you had prior to going to 6 Seattle, did he speak with you about the prospect 7 of adding David Miscavige as a party defendant to 8 this case? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you receive any communication from 11 Mr. Dandar before his visit to Seattle with regard 12 to potentially adding David Miscavige as a party 13 defendant to the case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. As far as you know, did Stacy have any 16 such communication or correspondence from 17 Mr. Dandar with regard to adding David Miscavige to 18 the ?? to the case as a party defendant? 19 A. As far as I know, no. 20 Q. Had anybody else communicated with you 21 other than Mr. Dandar with regard to the Lisa 22 McPherson case? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Any other potential witness or person, I'm 25 talking about in that time frame, whenever it was, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 205 1 three and a half years ago? 2 A. No. 3 MR. DANDAR: Let me interrupt you for a 4 minute. I'm letting you ask him questions 5 about any of our conversations or 6 correspondence until the time where he's 7 retained as an expert, then I'm going to stop 8 and object. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object all you want to. I 10 mean at some point you're offering him and, 11 you know, there is ?? there is a wide range of 12 questions that I ?? that I should be able to 13 ask and I will, and if you instruct him not to 14 answer, instruct him not to answer. 15 MR. DANDAR: I will. I just wanted to 16 let you know. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. Now, do you remember receiving ?? ever 19 receiving any written correspondence or 20 communication from Ken Dandar, ever? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What was that? 23 A. It was a cover letter with some documents 24 that he had sent me to look at. 25 Q. When was that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 206 1 A. Oh, maybe a month or so after the Seattle 2 meeting or when he decided to take us on. 3 Q. Are you sure it wasn't a month or so 4 before the Seattle meeting? 5 A. I'm sure. 6 Q. Did you ever see a copy, back three years 7 or so ago when you first got involved, did you ever 8 see a copy of a proposed amended complaint? Did 9 you ever see one? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you ever see a copy of a proposed 12 amendment that would add David Miscavige as a party 13 defendant to the case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. As far as you know, did ?? I'm talking 16 about back when you and Stacy were in Washington, 17 whenever that was, back in that time period you're 18 talking about, as far as you know, did Stacy? 19 A. As far as I know, no. 20 Q. What was the nature of the documents that 21 you got? 22 A. They were Exhibits that had been filed in 23 the case and had Bates stamps in the corner. They 24 were dealing with her stay at the Fort Harrison, 25 you know. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 207 1 Q. They were discovery, in other words? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And in addition to discovery that had 4 Bates stamps on it, were there any other category 5 of documents that you got? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You never got a copy of the complaint 8 itself? 9 A. I ?? I believe he sent me a copy of the 10 amended complaint with a stamp after it had been 11 filed and said here, this has been filed. 12 Q. But that was an amended complaint that 13 didn't have David Miscavige as a defendant, 14 correct? 15 A. I don't recall it. Your question to me 16 was did I see a proposed one. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. He just said, you know, you might want 19 to ?? I'm sending you this. Okay. 20 Q. Well, did you work on a proposed amended 21 complaint? Was that part of your assignment? 22 A. No, I did not. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar called you up and said he 24 wanted to talk to you, and as a result flew to 25 Seattle, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 208 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And he ?? and he met with both you and 3 Stacy, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Together? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In your home or was it somewhere else? 8 A. I think we just met in a restaurant. I 9 don't know if he dropped by the house but the 10 conversation was in a restaurant. 11 Q. How long was your meeting, approximately? 12 A. A couple of hours. 13 Q. Did he show you any documents at the 14 meeting? 15 A. I don't recall that he did. 16 Q. Did you take notes at the meeting? 17 A. I don't recall that he did. 18 Q. Did you bring any documents to the 19 meeting? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What did he say that he wanted from you? 22 A. He wanted to see whether or not we had any 23 knowledge that could be used to help him ?? these 24 are my words, now ?? decipher or translate and 25 understand certain documents and the vocabulary. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 209 1 And I said I was familiar with the vocabulary, you 2 know, I could understand some things in documents, 3 yeah. Let's talk and we want to just find out what 4 we knew. 5 Q. And at that point, he hadn't shown you any 6 documents? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And did he describe the nature of the 9 documents? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Now, other than wanting you to help him 12 understand some vocabulary, what else did he say 13 that he wanted from you and/or Stacy? 14 A. Nothing else really. He just wanted to 15 understand, because of the complexity of the 16 organization, how things sort of fit together. 17 And, you know, I've got a thing here that's 18 arrowed, you know, there is something with an arrow 19 and it says this. What is this, you know, and I 20 said, well ?? the way he was describing it he said 21 it sounds like a dispatch, you know. 22 Q. So he wanted a history lesson, basically? 23 A. No, I wouldn't characterize it as a 24 history lesson as much as sort of a guided tour of 25 the terrain to understand since he did not have SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 210 1 that much familiarity with the vocabulary and the 2 system. 3 Q. Well, other than sort of a general 4 education with regard to the system and the 5 vocabulary, was there anything else in particular 6 that Mr. Dandar said that he wanted from you and/or 7 Stacy? 8 A. He talked about her physical condition and 9 possible ways that she was being treated. I said 10 I'm not a technical person, I can't respond to 11 that. And Stacy said she could, if there were 12 documents pertaining to that she might be able to 13 translate it. 14 Q. All right. But you told Mr. Dandar that 15 you had no percipient or actual knowledge of what 16 had gone on in Clearwater in December of 1995, 17 right, you established that with him? 18 A. I don't think I said it. I think it was 19 just understood. 20 Q. It was obvious to him? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Right? Did you show him any documents 23 while he was out there? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you tell him that you had done a dozen SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 211 1 or so declarations in the last few years with 2 regard to Scientology and various cases? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ?? did you suggest to him that he 5 might read those for a history lesson? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you remember anything else he asked you 8 to do for him, you or Stacy to do for him? 9 A. I'm sorry, I lost the question. Can you 10 ask it again? 11 Q. She'll read it to you. 12 (The question was read by the reporter.) 13 A. No, there was nothing at that time. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Let the record reflect that 15 Mr. Young's exwife, Stacy, has just entered 16 the room and is sitting next to Mr. Prince. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. How many days did he stay in Seattle? 19 A. I just ?? we just met with him for just a 20 couple of hours. I don't know if he stayed on. He 21 said he was going to go back but that's all he 22 stayed with us was just a couple of hours. He may 23 have stayed overnight due to the hour and flights. 24 I can't say. 25 Q. Did he meet with anybody else out there? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 212 1 Did he tell you he was going to meet with anybody 2 else out there? 3 A. Didn't tell us that, no. 4 Q. Did you give him any numbers of other 5 people that he might contact? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you talk about Jerry Armstrong? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you talk about Jesse Prince? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you talk about any other person that 12 had been working against Scientology? 13 A. I would object to your characterization of 14 it. 15 Q. But no other name that you or Stacy 16 provided to him that he might contact to give him 17 assistance? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did he ask you about any people? 20 A. Not really. It was ?? it was mainly a, 21 you know, a get?together meeting, and we said we 22 would take a look and talk later and once we see 23 some documents and decide what to do next. It was 24 no way to really get that much of a precision 25 because we didn't know about the case, we hadn't SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 213 1 seen a complaint, we hadn't seen his documents of 2 discovery. So it was more a case of him asking us 3 questions as to our familiarity and our background 4 in Scientology. 5 Q. Did he ?? did he pay you for the visit? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did he give you any money at the visit? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you meet with him the next day? 10 A. No. I don't think so. I think that was 11 just the only one that he flew out the next day. 12 Q. Did you sign any documents while he was 13 out there? 14 A. No. 15 Q. At that point in time, had you signed any 16 documents with regard to Mr. Dandar? 17 A. No. We've talked about that one earlier. 18 No. 19 Q. And at that point in time, it is your 20 testimony that you hadn't received anything from 21 Mr. Dandar, is that right? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Is there a particular event that you can 24 look to in your life to date when this meeting took 25 place? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 214 1 A. No, not really. 2 Q. What were you doing at the time as far as 3 earning a living? 4 A. I said ?? as I said, I think I might have 5 been doing some FACT Net work at that time. 6 Q. What was Stacy doing at the time? 7 A. Taking care of cats. 8 Q. When was the next time you had any 9 communication with Mr. Dandar following the 10 two?hour or so visit in Seattle? 11 A. I think when he ?? I think he called up 12 and said okay, I'm going to be sending you some 13 documents later on. 14 Q. You think or is that your best recall? 15 A. That's my best recollection. 16 Q. And was it ?? was it a substantive 17 conversation? 18 A. No, not really, because we wanted to see 19 the discovery documents. That was ?? we understood 20 to be our primary role, was to serve as translaters 21 for this stuff and give him some direction as to 22 what these things meant since Scientology has its 23 own vocabulary. 24 Q. So what was the volume of what he sent 25 you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 215 1 A. The best that I can recall, the first 2 batch was relatively light, you know, in the area 3 of 50 pages or something like that, just to get an 4 idea of what we were talking about. 5 Q. How many batches did you get? 6 A. Just that one batch. 7 Q. You said the first batch. 8 A. Well, yeah. Later on there was a box of 9 maybe 1,000 pages. 10 Q. So you got two separate batches then, the 11 first batch and then a box? 12 A. Yeah, I think so, yeah. 13 Q. And ?? 14 A. And there was also, you know, as I said, 15 here's a copy of the complaint. But as far as 16 discovery documents, that's ?? 17 Q. What about depositions, did he send you 18 depositions? 19 A. You know, I don't remember. I was more 20 interested in the discovery documents. I don't 21 remember. If it did, it didn't impress me or 22 didn't mean much. 23 Q. Well, the second box or the box after the 24 first batch, that was also discovery documents? 25 A. Yeah, those were all Bates stamped in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 216 1 sequence, pretty much in sequence, yeah. 2 Q. Where are those documents now? 3 A. Those were destroyed. 4 Q. By whom? 5 A. By me. 6 Q. With a shredder or what? 7 A. No, just securely dumped somewhere when I 8 wanted to clean out my files a couple years ago. 9 Q. So out in Washington? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you offer them to your ex?wife? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you offer to send them back to 14 Mr. Dandar? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Had you marked on them? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What was the reason that you destroyed 19 them? 20 A. Hadn't done any work on the case for a 21 while and I knew ?? we had already provided 22 information to him and ?? 23 Q. To him? 24 A. Mr. Dandar. Translated some pieces, so I 25 thought their usefulness was pretty much done. I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 217 1 don't like that sort of stuff just sitting around. 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. It takes up huge amounts of file space, 4 gets lost, you know. There is organizations that 5 have been known to burglarize places, that sort of 6 stuff. 7 Q. Did you ask Mr. Dandar if that was it as 8 far as the work that you were going to do for him? 9 A. No. It just ?? it was quiet and I didn't 10 ask any more. 11 Q. This first conversation that you had with 12 you and your wife at the time you had with 13 Mr. Dandar, did you discuss with ?? did he ask you 14 about what Mr. Miscavige would or would not have 15 known with regard to a type three situation? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you discuss Mr. Miscavige at all? 18 A. I don't recall discussing him, no. 19 Q. Now, when this next ?? when this first 20 batch came to you, about how long after the ?? 21 Mr. Dandar's visit did the documents come? How did 22 they come, by the way? 23 A. What? 24 Q. Federal Express or something like that? 25 A. Yeah, just in a box. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 218 1 Q. And how long after ?? approximately how 2 long after the visit in Seattle did the documents 3 come? 4 A. Well, I told you that as far as the 5 envelope, a week or so afterwards when the first 6 batch came. 7 Q. Okay. And was there any communication, 8 any letter? 9 A. There might have been a cover note saying 10 here's, you know, here's some documents for you to 11 review. 12 Q. But nothing substantive? 13 A. No, just a letter of transmittal, 14 basically. 15 Q. No work orders or anything like that? 16 A. No. No. 17 Q. No agreements to sign? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you read the documents? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did your wife at the time read the 22 documents? 23 A. I think she did. 24 Q. Did y'all discuss the documents? 25 A. We might have. He promised more, so it SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 219 1 was a matter of just, okay, we sort of get an idea, 2 so we'll wait until all the rest of them arrive and 3 just hold judgment. 4 Q. So these two batches came fairly close to 5 one another? 6 A. No, not really, they came several weeks 7 apart. 8 Q. I consider that fairly close. I mean so 9 you waited until you got the second batch before 10 you really had any communication about it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many visits did Mr. Dandar make to 13 Seattle? 14 A. I think there was one other visit. 15 Q. And who was with him on that visit? 16 A. Just him. 17 Q. How long after the first visit was the 18 second visit? 19 A. Oh, boy. Maybe six months. 20 Q. What was the occasion of the second visit? 21 A. Well, we had been talking on the phone and 22 he said he would just like to be able to sit down 23 and just talk about this for a couple of hours 24 rather than doing this on the phone. And maybe 25 because he was still having trouble when I would SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 220 1 refer to a particular document, and he would look 2 at it and maybe we could sit down and really 3 understand the document and look at it and just 4 give him sort of a hands?on briefing on how this 5 works. And we could save a lot of time just doing 6 it in person. 7 Q. And did that meeting take place? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In your house or at some restaurant or 10 what? 11 A. It was at a restaurant. 12 Q. Was this before or after the Mintons had 13 bought the house for you and your wife at the time? 14 A. The Mintons did not buy the house for me 15 and my wife at the time. That's not the 16 characterization I ever gave. 17 Q. So they bought it for the cats, is that 18 who they bought the house for? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And you just ?? you and your 21 wife at the time, Stacy, just happened to have the 22 privilege of living in the house, right? 23 A. We were taking care of the cats. 24 Q. Okay. Now, when Mr. and ?? when the 25 Mintons bought this house for the cats and you and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 221 1 your wife Stacy, was that before or after the 2 second visit by Mr. Dandar? 3 A. After. 4 Q. So when Mr. Dandar came the second time, 5 it was still prior to October of 1997, is that 6 right? 7 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 8 Q. Do you remember that the cat house was 9 bought in October of 1997 by the Mintons? 10 A. I'm not sure what you mean by the cat 11 house. 12 Q. Well, the house for the cats that you and 13 your wife, Stacy, were privileged enough to live 14 in, right? 15 A. I appreciate your sarcasm. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. What's your question? 18 Q. Well, my question was, was this ?? was 19 this trip by Mr. Dandar before or after you and the 20 cats were in that house? 21 A. As I said, to the best of my recollection, 22 it was before. 23 Q. Was this trip by Mr. Dandar, the second 24 trip by Mr. Dandar, was it before or after you 25 had ?? you and Stacy had had any communication with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 222 1 Bob Minton? 2 A. Before. 3 Q. And you believe that this second visit was 4 six months after the first visit? 5 A. Yeah, that seems about right. 6 Q. Do you know when the McPherson lawsuit was 7 filed? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Now, when Mr. Dandar came for this second 10 visit, how long did the meeting at the restaurant 11 take place? 12 A. Just a few hours. 13 Q. Who was at the meeting? 14 A. Stacy, Mr. Dandar and myself. 15 Q. Did Mr. Dandar take notes at either of 16 these meetings? 17 A. I don't remember if he did. We were ?? we 18 had a couple of documents, I remember that, but I 19 don't remember if he took notes. 20 Q. Did he show you any documents? 21 A. No. 22 Q. At the first meeting, he didn't show you 23 any documents, right? 24 A. No. 25 Q. At the second meeting, did he show you any SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 223 1 documents? 2 A. I don't recall that he did. 3 Q. But you said he had some documents? 4 A. No, we had documents we showed him. 5 Q. I'm sorry. Y'all had documents. Did you 6 go over documents at the first meeting? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you go over documents with Mr. Dandar 9 at the second meeting? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What documents did you go over with him at 12 the second meeting? 13 A. Oh, to the best of my recall, it would be 14 like an invoice, which would have ?? this is just 15 like a hypothetical. It just would have I?N?T?R?D, 16 and we said, well, it looks like that's the INT 17 rundown and that would be the abbreviation for INT 18 rundown. Oh, because these regents, when they 19 would write on an invoice, they would scrawl the 20 thing real fast. Oh, I get it. 21 So it would be taking through and noticing 22 the shorthand, other notes where we would just say 23 oh, and here, by the way, this is, you know, this 24 and that. Just little things that we knew that 25 would be ?? that you would have to be a staff SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 224 1 member to be able to decipher or translate. 2 Q. Do you remember any particular document 3 that you went over with Mr. Dandar at this second 4 meeting, you and/or your wife at the time? 5 A. Yeah. I ?? I don't know if I went over it 6 then or if we just talked later but I remember one 7 where there was an invoice for her that she was 8 red?tagged, and we saw that and we went oh oh, 9 because red tag is a serious sign that a person is 10 in trouble. So she was paying for something that 11 she was in trouble. I told Ken, I said we have an 12 invoice here for a person that is sick, in trouble, 13 et cetera. And again, only if you know what red 14 tag means in Scientology, that she was having to 15 pay for a red tag, I think something like a red tag 16 session. If you didn't know what that means, you 17 can think R?E?D was an abbreviation and ?? no, red 18 tag session. 19 So we said we think this is important and 20 if you get ?? so if you get PC folders for this 21 date, you can see what the red tag session is. And 22 this was to help him, to guide him as to what to 23 look for. 24 Q. You were made aware of the fact by 25 Mr. Dandar that Lisa McPherson was a public as SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 225 1 opposed to a staff member at the time of her death, 2 he told you that? 3 A. I remember ?? I don't remember him telling 4 me that but it was obvious from the records. 5 Q. That she was? 6 A. That she was a paying public at the Fort 7 Harrison. 8 Q. Now, did Mr. Dandar stay over on this 9 second visit? 10 A. He might have but I don't know. 11 Q. Did he see anybody else at the time of 12 this second visit? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Did you meet with anybody ?? you or Stacy 15 meet with anybody else during this second visit 16 with regard to the case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Between the first and second ?? well, 19 strike that. 20 Prior to meeting with ?? talking to 21 Mr. Dandar for the first time, had anybody 22 communicated with you with regard to the death of 23 Lisa McPherson? 24 A. I don't recall anybody talking to me about 25 it, no. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 226 1 Q. And that would apply to Stacy as well, 2 right? 3 A. Other than maybe we said, you know, hey, 4 did you see that? Yeah. 5 Q. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm 6 talking about being interviewed or meeting with 7 somebody. 8 A. No. 9 Q. And I apologize if I asked you this but 10 I ?? but I may well have and if I did, you'll just 11 have to bear with me. At the second meeting, I 12 take it you didn't sign any ?? you and Stacy did 13 not sign any agreements, is that right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Were you given any directions during this 16 second meeting, you or Stacy, any requests? 17 A. No, just other than, you know, if I need 18 some more help on this I'll get with you. 19 Q. Were you paid for your time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. For the second meeting? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you submit a bill for your time for 24 the second meeting? 25 A. I don't know if I did or she did or if I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 227 1 just told him, I don't remember. 2 Q. Excuse me? 3 A. I don't remember how the billing was 4 actually done. 5 Q. Well, did there come a point in time when 6 you were paid, you and Stacy were paid by 7 Mr. Dandar? 8 A. That's a statement. Do you have a 9 question? 10 Q. That's a question. 11 A. Oh, it was? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Oh, sorry. Yes. 14 Q. When was that? 15 A. Oh, couple of months later. 16 Q. So that would put us about when in time? 17 A. Oh, maybe five, six months after the first 18 meeting, about three years ago now. 19 Q. Well, how long after ?? was this before or 20 after the Mintons bought the house that you got 21 paid? 22 A. I don't remember. I think it was before. 23 I don't remember. I think it was before. It was 24 just trying to get ?? I've got no event to really 25 nail it to. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 228 1 Q. Well, I mean a big event in your life was 2 moving into a $250,000 house bought by the Mintons, 3 correct? That was a big event, wasn't it? 4 A. Well, that's a change in one's life. 5 Q. I mean there was property, correct, 6 grounds? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. How many acres? 9 A. A couple of acres. 10 Q. What was the ?? and what you were living 11 on before you didn't own, right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You didn't have a couple of acres before, 14 did you? 15 A. No, we didn't own this one. 16 Q. How many square feet did this $250,000 17 house have? 18 A. I don't ?? don't ask me that. I've never 19 figured out square footage. 20 Q. Well, how many bedrooms did it have? Will 21 you describe the house for us? 22 A. It was a one bedroom. 23 Q. A $250,000 one bedroom house? 24 A. It was a one bedroom. 25 Q. Well, describe the house for us. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 229 1 A. There was a basement because the land 2 sloped away, which was basically unfinished and 3 that's where the sanctuary was to be primarily put 4 in. The first floor had a kitchen that opened 5 directly onto a dining area that opened directly 6 onto the living room. Off in the hall in the back 7 was a laundry room, and then there was a small room 8 which I had converted into an office. Then you go 9 up the stairs and there was an open loft bedroom 10 with a bath. Oh, and there was also a bath 11 downstairs and that was the entire thing. 12 Q. Was there any other structures on the 13 property? 14 A. There was a small building that was used 15 for storage of hay, like a ?? they call it a tack 16 room, which is, you know, about 9 x 12 that some 17 hay was stored in for the people that had some 18 horses before. 19 Q. Was the house furnished? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did Mr. Minton furnish it for you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did the Mintons furnish it for you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did they give you the money to furnish the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 230 1 house? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Where did you get the money? 4 A. We had our own furniture. 5 Q. So you moved your furniture from the 6 rental house to there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What about washer and dryer, what did you 9 do about that? 10 A. It came with a washer and dryer. 11 Q. So the house had a washer and dryer? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What else did the house have? What other 14 furnishings did the house have? 15 A. I don't consider washer and dryer to be 16 furnishings. There was a dishwasher. Do you 17 consider that to be furnishings? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Built?in dishwasher, garbage disposal, 20 electric lights, wall switches, a stair, I don't 21 know. I mean there is furniture ?? 22 Q. Central air conditioning and heating? 23 A. Yeah, if you consider that furnishings, 24 it's part of the house. 25 Q. How old was the house? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 231 1 A. I think about four or five years old. 2 Q. Now, these two visits that Mr. Dandar 3 made, it is your recollection they were made before 4 you ever heard of Bob Minton? 5 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 6 Q. When did you first get paid by Mr. Dandar? 7 A. As I said, it was about maybe four or five 8 months after we started because it was a slow 9 beginning getting the discovery documents and I 10 didn't rush into it. Going through thousands of 11 pages took a while and so there was no particular 12 rush. 13 Q. Do you have a date? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you keep your time? 16 A. Roughly, as best as I could. 17 Q. Do you have a record of it somewhere? 18 A. Not now, no. 19 Q. Did Stacy keep that, I mean was she the 20 record keeper? 21 A. No, I was doing most of the review of the 22 documents and I would pull some out that I thought 23 would be relevant for her to see that would be more 24 technical. 25 Q. Did she keep her time as well? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 232 1 A. No. 2 Q. Well, what was the understanding as to how 3 you would get paid? 4 A. By the hour, but my attitude was if ?? the 5 hours that I would lose and just throw away were 6 just being basically generous rather than marking 7 down I did 15 minutes the way some attorneys do. I 8 didn't want to get into that. If I spent, you 9 know, most of the day, you know, okay, I spent, you 10 know, three, four hours. I would always give him 11 the benefit of the doubt in that way. 12 Q. Did you send an invoice? 13 A. Something was sent or by voice or mail. I 14 don't remember what it was but it was just for the 15 time spent, yes. 16 Q. Did you break out your time, like I spent 17 eight hours on reviewing documents? Did you break 18 that out? 19 A. I don't think so. I think it was just a 20 total time estimated. 21 Q. Was it for you and Stacy? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And how many ?? and how frequently did you 24 bill? 25 A. Just that one time. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 233 1 Q. You only billed him one time? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you get paid for the first and second 4 visits? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So in the last three and a half years, 7 you've only sent one bill to Mr. Dandar? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And as long as you were with Stacy, there 10 was only one bill sent to Mr. Dandar? 11 A. As best as I can recall, yes. 12 Q. Do you know whether Stacy has been billing 13 Mr. Dandar separately? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. What was the amount of the bill? 16 A. Just a couple of thousand dollars. 17 Q. And did you get paid? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And how much did you get paid ?? I mean in 20 what form did you get paid? 21 A. It was a check. 22 Q. From his law firm? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you deposited it, cashed it, deposited 25 it or what? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 234 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Which? 3 A. Deposited it. 4 Q. In these accounts that you talked about 5 before out in Seattle? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you remember when in period of time 8 you actually got paid? Was that the conclusion of 9 your work that you sent in the bill? 10 A. Well, in a way, yes. We chatted on the 11 phone a few times but I never considered it a ?? as 12 a billing matter at that time, you know. That 13 was ?? sitting down and reviewing documents 14 intensely is ?? I consider that to be the real 15 work. Just kicking around an idea or answering a 16 question for him on the phone or if he calls up and 17 said hey, I just found a document here that's got, 18 you know, to be ridiculous, SCN, what's that? Oh, 19 that's just one of the shorthands meaning 20 Scientology or something like that, just answer a 21 few questions. But those weren't ?? I didn't 22 consider that billable. 23 Q. Did you submit any reports to him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you ?? did you review and revise SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 235 1 submissions? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you work on any amendments to the 4 complaint? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you talk to anybody else other than 7 Mr. Dandar with regard to your work, talking about 8 including your wife? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you talk to any witnesses? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you try to do any investigative work? 13 A. No. 14 Q. None whatsoever? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you go on the Internet and seek 17 assistance? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Are you sure? 20 A. Not that I recall. I may have ?? I think 21 one time I fed in one of the ?? one of the firms 22 into the search engine and, you know, turned up a 23 website and oh, that's interesting. I just wanted 24 to see if there was anything there, but I don't 25 think I even told him about that. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 236 1 Q. Did you ?? did you have a particular 2 handle or name on the Internet? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you use your own name when you go on 5 the Internet? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Always? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. What about Stacy? 10 A. You'd have to ask her. 11 Q. I'm asking you what you know about her. 12 A. I just know that she used her own name. 13 Q. Did you seek information with regard to 14 AMC Publishing? 15 A. I think that was the one I fed into the 16 search engine to find that they were holding a 17 conference somewhere because he hadn't provided me 18 any information about AMC Publishing. So I went 19 looking for it and saw the type of business that it 20 was and okay, I get the idea, and that satisfied my 21 curiosity. 22 Q. What do you mean search engine? 23 A. Well, a search engine is where you can go 24 on the Internet and you can feed in, you know, AMC 25 Publishing and it will go searching the websites. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 237 1 Q. Did you find anything when you did that? 2 A. As I said, I turned up a website someplace 3 that mentioned AMC Publishing was holding a seminar 4 somewhere, I think up in Georgia or Alabama, 5 someplace, and I said okay, I get the idea. 6 Q. Did you call up any third parties and 7 represent that you were an attorney? 8 A. No. That's illegal. 9 Q. Did you represent to anyone that you were 10 an attorney seeking information with regard to Lisa 11 McPherson? 12 A. No way. 13 Q. Did you represent to anybody that you were 14 seeking information with regard to Lisa McPherson? 15 A. No. 16 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 Q. I'm going to show you what I'm going to 19 mark as Exhibit 1 and ask you if you recognize 20 this. And it is highlighted but when it gets 21 copied it won't come out. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Can we go off the record 23 for a second? 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 (Recess from 2:33 to 2:41 p.m.) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 238 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. I put before you Exhibit 1. Do you 3 recognize that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that a ?? would you describe that as an 6 Internet posting that you made? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And where did you make this from? 9 MR. DANDAR: Does that mean a city or ?? 10 Q. Location. 11 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 12 Q. What ?? what location? Is this from your 13 house? 14 A. Probably, yeah. 15 Q. So you were hooked up to some sort of 16 Internet connection in your house? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 18 Q. And what is rider@eskimo.com, what is 19 that? Is that the search engine? 20 A. No, that's ?? that's the address, that's 21 my Internet address. 22 Q. Does that continue to be your Internet 23 address? 24 A. I still have it. 25 Q. The information that you seek here SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 239 1 regarding AMC Publishing Prodex, is that a name 2 that you got from Mr. Dandar? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Where did you get that? 5 A. From the documents. 6 Q. Did ?? is this something you did on your 7 own or were you asked to do this? 8 A. I did it on my own. 9 Q. You say in here that: My name is Robert 10 Vaughn Young and I have been retained as a 11 consultant by counsel for plaintiff in the above 12 cited case. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That's dated July 8, 1997, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is this before or after Mr. Dandar's first 17 visit? 18 A. This would be after, when we had 19 documents. 20 Q. Is this before or after Mr. Dandar's 21 second visit? 22 A. Probably after. I think this would be 23 after I had the full batch of documents and said 24 like, okay, now it's time to get rolling. 25 Q. Was there some agreement that you and your SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 240 1 wife at the time, Stacy, signed that would evidence 2 what you say here, that you were retained as a 3 consultant? 4 A. I think I've answered that question 5 several times. No. 6 Q. There is none, is that ?? is that right? 7 A. We've answered this question several 8 times. 9 Q. Well, I think that I asked you that 10 question during a period of time. I don't think I 11 asked you that question with the whole scope of 12 time, so let me ask you that. 13 A. However ?? 14 Q. Did you ever sign, you or Stacy, as far as 15 you know, ever sign an agreement or receive 16 something in writing from Mr. Dandar that 17 documented the fact that you and she had been 18 retained as a consultant in this case? 19 A. No. 20 Q. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Was this posting before or after you sent 23 the bill to Mr. Dandar? 24 A. Before. 25 Q. Did you charge him for this work? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 241 1 A. No. This is ?? this is not something I 2 would charge for. This is for my own education. 3 Q. Did you send anything else like Exhibit 1? 4 A. I don't recall sending anything else. 5 Although it says repost at the top, so I ?? it 6 looks like I sent this once and then maybe, you 7 know, if I didn't get any replies, maybe a week 8 later I would send it again. That's why it says 9 repost at the top. 10 Q. Did ?? did you receive any replies? 11 A. I got something which somebody told me how 12 to use a search engine because you can tell from 13 this I was asking ?? basically, I was ?? did not 14 know much about the Internet, so where do I go 15 looking? So somebody just told me well, what you 16 do is you go to this ?? this site and they would 17 give me an address and we feed it in and that was 18 my education. Did you hear me? 19 Q. Yes. In ?? any time after the time you 20 first met Mr. Dandar until you submitted your one 21 and only bill, did you communicate with an 22 individual named Ed Roberts? 23 A. The name doesn't ring a bell. 24 Q. Did you communicate with anybody in Texas? 25 A. About Lisa McPherson? I ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 242 1 Q. That's what I'm talking about, about Lisa 2 McPherson, yes. 3 A. Okay. You see, the Internet is such that, 4 you know, you can get mail from somebody and you 5 don't know ?? 6 Q. I'm talking about picking up the phone and 7 talking to them on the phone. 8 A. Oh. I don't remember ?? well, we were 9 talking Internet. Sorry. The name doesn't ring a 10 bell as far as an Ed Roberts. On the phone out of 11 Texas? 12 Q. Do you remember ?? I'm sorry. Go ahead. 13 A. No, I'm just ?? I'm just mulling. It 14 certainly doesn't jump out at me. 15 Q. And do you remember calling a woman named 16 Janice McDannel with regard to Lisa McPherson? 17 A. Janice, can you spell the last name or is 18 this just ?? 19 Q. I think that it's M?c?D?a?n?n?e?l. 20 A. Just from an audio surveillance tape or 21 what? 22 MR. WEINBERG: I move to strike that 23 gratuitous comment. 24 A. Just levity. Oh, give me one. Janice 25 McDannel? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 243 1 Q. Or Daniel? 2 A. No, we're both gargling it up. It doesn't 3 ?? again, it doesn't ring a bell. 4 Q. You don't remember taking it upon yourself 5 to call people and do investigative work with 6 regard to Lisa McPherson as part of your ?? 7 whatever it was you were doing on this matter, is 8 that right? 9 A. If I did, there wasn't ?? you know, there 10 was so little and of so little value because I only 11 remember working with the discovery docs and trying 12 to do the Internet search and coming up dry. I 13 don't recall if I called anybody to understand 14 anything else but it was not to really get ?? get 15 this type of information I was getting from the 16 documents. 17 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy didn't 18 conduct any investigative work like that during 19 that time period? 20 A. I don't know. She may ?? 21 Q. I said as far as you know. You don't 22 know, is that correct? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Okay. And in any event, when you sent the 25 one bill to Mr. Dandar, you don't remember billing SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 244 1 him for any work like that, is that correct? 2 A. Like what? 3 Q. Like calling up people and trying to 4 interview them. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Now, other than the enclosure letter that 7 you talked about ?? remember getting from 8 Mr. Dandar, do you remember any other 9 correspondence, written correspondence that you 10 received from ?? you and/or Stacy received during 11 that period of time from Mr. Dandar? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you create anything and/or did Stacy 14 create anything in writing with regard to the work 15 that you did with regard to this matter at that 16 time? 17 A. I think one time I might have sent him a 18 short e?mail message of a couple of key term 19 definitions, you know, like red tag or blah blah 20 blah, but ?? 21 Q. But nothing more substantive than that? 22 A. No, because my function was basically 23 orientation, interpretation of vocabulary, hooking 24 up between documents, answering questions as to, 25 you know, what ?? what is a ?? what's a WR? Oh, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 245 1 that's a weekly report, deciphering the lingo. 2 Q. So ?? so you were basically hired as a 3 consultant then, is that a fair statement? 4 A. Well, an expert consultant, yes, to be 5 able to translate things he couldn't translate. 6 Q. Not to testify but to give advice as to a 7 variety of documents that were being produced in 8 discovery, is that right? 9 A. Well, yes, but he also said would you be 10 able ?? if I had to ask somebody to testify as to 11 what this means, could you hook it up? I said oh, 12 yeah, it's not difficult. You take this 13 dictionary, this thing and you show ?? so it 14 doesn't require my percipient knowledge. I can 15 just hook it up with various documents. Yeah, I 16 can do that, I can do that. 17 Q. And was Stacy also retained in any 18 capacity at that point in time? 19 A. Well, same capacity as me. 20 Q. So sort of a consultant type, is that 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Does there come a point in time where 24 Mr. Dandar falls off the face of the earth as far 25 as you're concerned and doesn't contact you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 246 1 anymore? 2 A. No, not really. We haven't been in 3 contact really, I guess, for maybe the last year 4 or ?? a little over maybe a year. But I didn't 5 consider him falling off the face of the earth. I 6 just haven't heard from him. 7 Q. Well, you were ?? you had your first 8 contact with Mr. Dandar you think three, three and 9 a half years ago, right? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. The ?? the small amount of work you did 12 took place in a matter of months, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And after that ?? 15 A. Let me clarify. That document work, 16 discovery document work. 17 Q. Right. Right. That took place in a 18 matter of months, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And then once that document ?? once those 21 matter of months was over with, you didn't do 22 anything else with regard to the case, right? 23 A. No, that's not what I told you a while 24 ago. 25 Q. What else did you do with regard to the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 247 1 case? 2 A. I answered that before. Occasionally, I 3 would speak with him. Remember that part? Answers 4 to specific questions. 5 Q. Well, you didn't bill for them? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. So you might have a phone call or 8 two and he might ask you what does SCN mean? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Okay. Other than a phone call or two like 11 that, did you do any work on the case after the 12 first few months when you were looking at the 13 documents? 14 A. No. It was ?? the work was pretty much 15 restricted to the documents and interpretations. 16 Q. Okay. But ?? but were you sent any more 17 documents after those first two batches? 18 A. As I said, I might have gotten the amended 19 complaint later on when this thing progressed. He 20 was just sort of updating me. 21 Q. But that was a fait accompli. It had 22 already been filed, right? 23 A. Filed. It had the stamp on it. 24 Q. Right. So you didn't get it and say give 25 me your input as to what it ought to say? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 248 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. So after these first two batches of 3 documents and the bill that you sent for the 4 looking at them and consulting, what other work, if 5 any, have you done on the case other than what 6 you've already said, the few phone calls? 7 A. Well, as I say the occasional consulting 8 and advising and interpreting as needed, and that 9 was pretty much it. 10 Q. You've not sent any other bills? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you expect to be paid for the 13 deposition? 14 A. This deposition? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. I would hope you pay me. 17 Q. Why would I pay you? 18 A. Excuse me? I've left Ohio, I've given up 19 medical treatment to come down here for a few days 20 at your request. 21 Q. No, no. Mr. Dandar is the one that 22 insisted on us going forward right now with your 23 deposition because of your health. 24 A. I ?? 25 Q. But you expect to be paid by somebody for SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 249 1 your deposition, is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And are you going to reveal to us how much 4 you expect to be paid for this deposition? 5 A. Do you want to negotiate? You almost had 6 a smile there, sir. 7 Q. I doubt it. 8 A. Oh, yes you did. 9 Q. What are you charging? 10 A. $100 an hour. 11 Q. And is that portal?to?portal? 12 A. No way. What do you mean by that? 13 Leaving the door, walking to the airport, that type 14 of thing? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. No. 17 Q. So did you ?? are you charging for 18 preparation time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. There really was no preparation time. 21 A. No preparation time. To me, it's just 22 depo time. 23 Q. So it's just ?? you're just charging for 24 the time that you're sitting in the depo? 25 A. I think that's fair. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 250 1 Q. All right. 2 A. Even though I'm losing a day on each end 3 coming and going. 4 Q. At $100 an hour? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then your expenses? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And your expenses include what? 9 A. I had a 12?ounce glass of orange juice, 10 carrot juice, yesterday in the mall, so we're 11 running pretty light right now. 12 Q. Expenses include airfare? 13 A. Well, that's already covered. I've not 14 paid that out. 15 Q. Somebody paid for that? 16 A. Mr. Dandar just notified me ticket 17 available and I picked it up. 18 Q. And that's from where, where did you fly 19 from? 20 A. Cincinnati to Tampa. 21 Q. He's picked up the hotel as well? 22 A. I think so. 23 MR. DANDAR: We'll talk about that later. 24 I don't want to get in an argument with you 25 but you're the one that told the judge you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 251 1 needed to take his deposition right away. 2 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. Not right away. 3 MR. DANDAR: We don't need to talk about 4 it. Let's just keep going here. 5 A. Let me put it this way. I don't ?? I 6 don't really know. I'm just told show up, 7 everything is handled. 8 Q. So the only out?of?pocket expenses you 9 have are minor expenses with regard to a couple 10 of ?? 11 A. A couple of dollars, but I'm willing to do 12 more if you want. 13 Q. Did you work out with Mr. Dandar in 14 advance what your fee would be? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Is there any agreement that you have with 17 regard to what your fee will be? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Is there anything in writing? 20 A. No. I didn't ?? I think we've answered 21 this. 22 Q. I'm talking about for this deposition. 23 A. Oh, no. 24 Q. Because there is really no other work that 25 you've done in the case. I mean this is like the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 252 1 first work that you've done in this case since 2 however many years ago it was that you looked at 3 the documents and submitted the bill, right? 4 A. That type of work, yes, but I did submit a 5 declaration in support of Mr. Prince's declaration, 6 as you recall. 7 Q. All right. And what were you paid for 8 that? 9 A. Nothing, that was ?? that was done of my 10 own volition without even asking Mr. Dandar. 11 Q. How did you know about it? 12 A. Stacy told me. She said hey, Jesse has 13 filed a declaration, do you want to see a copy of 14 it, something like that. I said yes, so I saw it 15 and I said hey, I think ?? I think I need to file 16 something in support of this, and so that was my 17 idea to do it. I never spoke with Mr. Dandar or 18 anybody else. Didn't even speak with Jesse about 19 it. I sat down and wrote it up and sent it off to 20 Mr. Dandar, possibly to his surprise. 21 Q. And Mr. Minton didn't pay you for that? 22 Just answer the question. Mr. Minton didn't pay 23 you for that? 24 A. Nobody paid me for it. 25 Q. Ms. ?? your ex?wife didn't give you money SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 253 1 for that? 2 A. Nobody paid me for it. 3 Q. Mr. Haney didn't give you some money for 4 that? 5 A. Does no ?? do we understand the term 6 nobody paid me for it? 7 MR. DANDAR: Apparently not. Objection; 8 asked and answered. 9 Q. Well, did you receive any ?? just hold on 10 a second. Did you receive any money either 11 directly or indirectly from Mr. Minton at or about 12 the time you did this affidavit? 13 A. Nobody paid me for it, zero. 14 Q. The question was, sir, if you will listen, 15 did you receive any money in the time period 16 from ?? that you did this affidavit either directly 17 or indirectly from Mr. Minton, yes or no? 18 A. Nobody has given me any money at any time 19 with regard to this or any declaration I filed. 20 Q. That's not my question because you're not 21 listening to my question. 22 A. I'm listening to your question. You've 23 not heard my answer. The answer is no, no, no. 24 Q. No. Listen to my question. 25 MR. DANDAR: One more time. One more SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 254 1 time. This is it. 2 Q. When did you do ?? when did you do the 3 declaration? 4 A. I don't know what it was, you know, three 5 weeks ago, four weeks ago, I don't know. 6 Q. Okay. Three or four weeks ago, is that 7 when you think you did it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How long did it take you to do it? 10 A. Oh, probably better part of a day. 11 Q. And where were you when you did it? 12 A. In Cincinnati. 13 Q. So this was after you had quit your work 14 or finished your work with Mr. Haney, or before? 15 A. Afterwards. As I said, it was about a 16 month ago maybe. 17 Q. And you were working on some ?? on your 18 word processor? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Did you do a draft? 21 A. No. What I ?? 22 Q. Did you send anybody a draft? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you keep any drafts? 25 A. I kept what is the final copy that got SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 255 1 sent. I ?? I don't deal in drafts. 2 Q. All right. Now, whenever that was, a 3 month ago would be what, November, is that 4 approximately when it was? 5 A. Sounds right. The date's on the 6 declaration. 7 Q. All right. Well, let's just take a look 8 at that declaration. 9 A. I'm going to ask for a pickle jar up here 10 pretty soon. Too much water. 11 Q. Let me show you what ?? 12 A. Can we put this thing some place? 13 Q. Just leave it there. 14 MR. DANDAR: Just put it on the side. It 15 will be fine. 16 Q. What we'll have the reporter mark is 17 Exhibit 2 and ask you if this is the declaration 18 that you're talking about. 19 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 A. Oh, 6th of October. Time flies when 22 you're having fun. 23 Q. Is that the declaration? 24 A. Yes sir. 25 Q. So it's dated October 6th, 1999? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 256 1 A. Yeah, longer ago than I imagined. 2 Q. And you ?? how did you send it to 3 Mr. Dandar? Did somebody pick it up or did you put 4 it in the mail or what? 5 A. No, just ?? just mailed it. 6 Q. Now, on or before October 6th, 1999, did 7 you receive any money directly or indirectly from 8 Mr. Minton? 9 A. No. 10 Q. On or before October 6th, 1999, did you 11 receive any money directly or indirectly from 12 Stacy? 13 A. No. 14 Q. On or before October 6th, 1999, did you 15 receive any money, other than the money that you've 16 told us about, $200 a week, from Mr. Haney? 17 A. No. 18 Q. On or before October 6th, 1999, did you 19 receive any money from Jesse Prince? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Either directly or indirectly, is that 22 right? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. On or before October 6th, 1999, did you 25 receive any money from Mr. Leipold? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 257 1 A. No. 2 Q. On or before October 6th, 1999, did you 3 receive any money from any source whatsoever with 4 regard to Scientology? 5 MR. DANDAR: In his whole lifetime? 6 MR. WEINBERG: No, in that time period. 7 Q. On or before October 6th, 1999? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you receive any money on or before 10 October 6th, 1999, I'm talking about in that time 11 period, from any media source. 12 A. No. 13 Q. From any foreign government? 14 A. No. It's really hard to believe, isn't 15 it? 16 Q. Well, I mean I suppose that you might 17 think it's funny but I remember reading somewhere 18 that you said somewhere in the past that a German 19 magazine had paid you $20,000, right? 20 A. No way. 21 Q. Didn't I read you ?? didn't I read that 22 you had testified under oath about that? 23 A. No, you're listening to OSA stuff. 24 Q. No, no. I read your deposition. Didn't 25 you say that in deposition? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 258 1 A. Never said it. 2 Q. Well, what ?? what did you receive from 3 Der Spiegel? 4 A. $4,000. 5 Q. So ?? so if in the deposition you said 6 something in excess of $4,000, that would be 7 inaccurate? 8 A. Yeah. If you want to haul it out, go 9 right ahead, use time up. 10 Q. We will. 11 A. No, there's no way. I've been deposed on 12 this before anyway. 13 MR. DANDAR: Do you want to take a break? 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Didn't we just take a 16 break? 17 A. Do you want to go looking up that stuff 18 and chase a red herring? Go right ahead. 19 Q. Not now, no. We got ?? somebody will find 20 it tonight. 21 What's the most money you've ever received 22 from a ?? from a magazine or from a media source? 23 A. I think that was the most I've ever 24 received. 25 Q. What year was that in? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 259 1 A. '95. 2 Q. You received that in Germany? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Cash or check or what? 5 A. Just cash. 6 Q. Now, other than the Jesse Prince 7 affidavit, what else did you review before 8 constructing this affidavit dated October 6th, 9 1999? 10 A. No, there was nothing else I reviewed. 11 Q. Did you review any of your former 12 declarations or affidavits in any of the other 13 cases? 14 A. I just said there was nothing else that I 15 reviewed in preparation for this declaration. 16 Q. All right. Did you have some sort of form 17 affidavit or declaration on your computer that 18 you ?? that you printed out? 19 A. I'm not sure I know what you mean. 20 Q. Well, we'll go over ?? 21 A. You mean these little number things? 22 Q. When ?? we'll go over it shortly but 23 you've done a lot of declarations, in the double 24 digits, over the years, right, having to do with 25 Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 260 1 A. Well, that's your characterization, a lot 2 of them, but if you have a question in mind ?? 3 Q. Double digits? 4 A. Possibly, I don't have a count. 5 Q. All right. And some of those declarations 6 tend to take on a common characteristic, right? 7 Some of the same things appear from affidavit to 8 affidavit? 9 A. No. 10 Q. My ?? no? 11 A. No. Each affidavit or declaration I write 12 is completely its own. If there is similar 13 information, I cover it but I never cut and paste 14 from it ?? 15 Q. That was going to be my question. So do 16 you ?? for this affidavit, was there anything that 17 you printed off your computer that was already 18 there that had been constructed in previous years? 19 A. No. This was a first time done for it. 20 There was nothing else consulted except reading 21 Jesse's to see what he said, writing this. There 22 was no other draft, no other documents, that was 23 it, this is just this. 24 Q. So this is a ?? you just went to the 25 computer and this is what came out? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 261 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. No drafts, no corrections, no nothing? 3 A. I make the corrections on top of the draft 4 as I go back and do my own rewrite. 5 Q. The ?? so that your process is you sort of 6 edit as you go along? 7 A. That's a poor characterization but it 8 might suffice. 9 Q. And no one edited this for you? 10 A. No, no one else saw it or edited it or did 11 anything. 12 Q. No one approved it? Who did you send it 13 to? 14 A. Ken Dandar. 15 Q. Who sent you Jesse's affidavit? 16 A. Stacy e?mailed it to me. 17 Q. It came over the e?mail? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Well, what else did you receive in this 20 case over the e?mail? 21 A. That was all. 22 THE WITNESS: I'd like to take a short 23 break. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Take a short break? Sure. 25 Go ahead. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 262 1 (Recess from 3:09 to 3:17 p.m.) 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q. Do you remember on February 10th, 1997 you 4 sat for a deposition in the FACT Net case? 5 A. If you say so. 6 Q. Do you remember that there was a 7 deposition where you were interrogated by 8 Mr. Moxon ?? 9 A. Interrogated is a good word. 10 Q. ?? and Mr. Abelson was present, along with 11 a variety of other people, and you were being 12 represented by Graham Berry with regard to the FACT 13 Net case? 14 A. For the purpose of moving on, okay, I 15 think I know which one that was. 16 Q. Well, let me refer you to page 43, 44, 45, 17 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 and 54. 18 A. We're going to be here a while. 19 Q. It's one of these shrimp ?? 20 A. You're still asking me to read about eight 21 pages. 22 Q. No, I'm going to refer you. I'm just 23 telling you where I'm gonna ?? what I'm going to 24 show you. These came out of here. I'm going to 25 have to look over your shoulder with you. Okay? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 263 1 I'll show you the cover page of this, which is a 2 deposition, RTC versus FACT Net. 3 A. South Flower Street, oh, at the Hastings 4 firm. Okay. 5 Q. All right. Now, let me ?? 6 A. Let me just see the attorneys on this. 7 Q. Moxom, Abelson, Graham Berry. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Just put that down and I'll get you the 10 right place here. Page 43, referring you to line 11 7: 12 Answer: I'll allow that part. I've not 13 in the last couple of months sold any further 14 articles. 15 Question: How much money have you made as 16 a writer since you've been employed in this case? 17 Answer: I assumed you were speaking about 18 the Musi Pueler agreement. 19 I'm talking about this case. 20 Answer: That goes into last year and I'm 21 going to break it off at some point, but let's just 22 say that I made more than $20,000 as a writer last 23 year. 24 And on page 44: Any of this $20,000 that 25 you say you made as a writer, was any of it paid to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 264 1 you by someone who was not an attorney or law firm? 2 Yes. 3 How much? 4 Answer: I just named the amount. All of 5 that was paid to me as a writer by ?? 6 Was anything published? 7 You said: Let me finish my sentence. My 8 publications are entries that publish and accept 9 the writings of writers. 10 Was anything published? 11 Yes. 12 Where ?? for which you received money? 13 Der Spiegel. 14 How much did you receive from Der Spiegel? 15 I'm going to decline on the basis of 16 privacy. 17 Who is Der Spiegel? Who in Der Spiegel 18 paid you money? 19 The money was paid to me by Der Spiegel. 20 By whom? 21 It's a Der Spiegel account, I don't know 22 who the name of the account is. 23 Was it paid in the United States? 24 It was paid from Germany. 25 Was this for writing you did about SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 265 1 Scientology? 2 Yes. 3 You didn't get paid for doing any writing 4 for anything other than Scientology? 5 Answer: I consulted with them as well. 6 Now, page 46, line 3: 7 Question: How much have you been paid for 8 information and how much for writing? 9 I told you I've been paid more than 10 $20,000 as a writer. 11 Then we go to 40 ?? if you go to page 50: 12 Is there a written agreement? 13 I don't think so. 14 What are you supposed to provide to them 15 for the $25,000, what service? 16 Objection: Mischaracterizes his answer 17 about $20,000. 18 The Witness: The only thing on the 19 information was one packet of material for which I 20 was reimbursed a meager amount for my time and 21 copying. 22 Question: What service were you to 23 provide Der Spiegel for the $20,000? 24 Answer: That was for the articles that 25 I ?? the article that I published and possibility SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 266 1 of another article. 2 What other article? 3 Answer: There is no other article yet. 4 It is simply the same. Same thing any writer has 5 done where he's contracted for his next possible 6 work. It would go to them. 7 Question: They paid you for a next 8 possible work? 9 Answer: Yes. 10 My question is, after having seen that, 11 does that refresh your recollection that you, in 12 fact, testified under oath in February of 1997 that 13 you had received $20,000 from Der Spiegel in 14 Germany for writing which had to do with 15 Scientology? 16 A. Yes. That ?? that was a total, that was 17 not a one ?? one time amount. 18 Q. Well, over what period of time did they 19 pay you the $20,000? 20 A. Oh, over several months. 21 Q. Well, how ?? 22 A. Because I ?? I had a couple of periods of 23 time that I ?? that I worked on it. So I'm saying 24 I did not get a $20,000 check lump payment. 25 Q. So when you said a few minutes ago that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 267 1 the most that ?? you know, when you expressed some 2 absolute disbelieve when I threw out the number 3 $20,000, you were only just talking about a lump 4 sum? 5 A. Yeah, somebody handing me $20,000 in a 6 cash or a check. 7 Q. Well, what ?? what were the amounts that 8 Der Spiegel handed to you over that two?month 9 period? 10 A. And also, your question was regarding the 11 magazine, and the other part that I was doing was 12 some of the consulting that was not part of the 13 magazine. It was a legal department, since ?? 14 Q. Well, I was under the impression from 15 reading that ?? we can go back and look at it 16 again ?? that you made it very clear that the 17 $20,000 was for writing. 18 A. And ?? and some consulting, it says in 19 there for consulting work. 20 Q. Well, in what amounts did you receive ?? 21 in what lump sum amounts did you receive this 22 money? 23 A. I think they were in $4,000 or $5,000 24 amounts. 25 Q. And ?? but it was all paid to you in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 268 1 Germany? 2 A. Well, when I said that, $4,000 for cash, I 3 thought at the time you referred ?? you said 4 something about the magazine article. That was 5 $4,000 I received in cash in Germany for the work 6 that I did as opposed to checks that were 7 international bank that I received from them. 8 Q. So when you went to Germany, they gave you 9 cash. Dollars or marks or what? 10 A. Dollars. 11 Q. But prior to going to Germany, they had 12 sent you checks? 13 A. I had received a payment prior to that, 14 which is not unusual for a writer to get an advance 15 on an article. 16 Q. How many checks did you receive prior to 17 that? 18 A. I think just one. 19 Q. And did you receive checks after you went 20 to Germany? 21 A. I remember one. I remember one. 22 Q. Where were the checks sent? 23 A. To me. 24 Q. But where? 25 A. Seattle. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 269 1 Q. Is this ?? but this would be before 2 Mr. Minton and his wife bought the home, is that 3 right? 4 A. No. Mr. Minton did not pay me for the 5 articles. 6 Q. I don't believe that was my question. I 7 said this was before ?? when you received this 8 money from Germany at the house in Seattle, that 9 was the house that you rented as opposed to the 10 house that Mr. Minton bought for the cats, right? 11 A. Yes. Yes. 12 Q. Now, go back to my original question, 13 which was in addition to money from Mr. Haney in 14 the form of cash and various items, the few 15 thousand dollars ?? 16 A. I'm sorry. Did you say before Mr. Haney? 17 Q. No. I said in addition to the money from 18 Mr. Haney, you know, in the form of cash and these, 19 you know, the apartment and the car and things like 20 that, and the few thousand dollars from Mr. Dandar, 21 what other source of income have you had in 1998 22 and 1999? 23 A. There might have been a leftover FACT Net 24 payment that came in in 1998. I don't remember. I 25 know there was ?? there was a serious ?? I remember SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 270 1 at one point there was a serious problem regarding 2 payments. So we received a payment on the FACT Net 3 case, God, what was it? It was, you know, like 4 six, seven, eight, you know, so far beyond all the 5 work and done that it may have landed in there as 6 well. 7 Q. Isn't it ?? isn't it correct that you got 8 one payment in FACT Net at a bankruptcy some time 9 before your November 1997 deposition that Mr. Rosen 10 took in Denver? Isn't that correct? 11 A. I don't know about the dates. 12 Q. But it was in '97 and not '98, wasn't it? 13 A. If you ?? if you want to tell me that 14 their bankruptcy ?? that was the problem with 15 that. The money was tied up, that was the one. It 16 was '97? That's possible. I don't remember any 17 particular dates. 18 Q. All right. And my question is ?? 19 A. I just know we were greatly delayed on the 20 payment. 21 Q. Well, let me give you some time. 22 Mr. Minton bought the house and his wife bought the 23 house for the cats and ?? and for you in October of 24 '97, correct? I mean we're going to get the 25 records out in a little while but isn't that when SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 271 1 you remember it was? 2 A. I'll ?? I'll accept that. 3 Q. Okay. After he bought the house for the 4 cats, after that period in time, October of 1997 ?? 5 A. After they bought the house for the cats. 6 Q. After he and his wife, is what you're 7 saying, bought the house for the cats? 8 A. It's an important point, sir. 9 Q. Well, do you know what involvement, if at 10 all, Mrs. Minton had in buying and ?? and spending 11 $250,000 to buy a house for some cats? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Now, now ?? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, this has been 15 happening now continually through the 16 deposition. 17 MR. DANDAR: What? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Prince and ?? and 19 Stacy Young continue to talk and they continue 20 to laugh and they continue to smirk. It's 21 very disrupting. 22 MR. DANDAR: Oh, please. 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, not oh, please. 24 That's what's been happening. 25 MR. DANDAR: Who? Where? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 272 1 MR. WEINBERG: And every lawyer and 2 person on this side will tell you. 3 MR. HERTZBERG: I can't hear a number of 4 the answers ?? 5 MR. DANDAR: Well, then speak up. 6 MR. HERTZBERG: Let me finish. 7 MR. DANDAR: Speak up. 8 MR. HERTZBERG: Let me finish. I'm 9 speaking up right now. For the ?? ever since 10 Stacy Young or Brooks?Young ?? 11 MR. DANDAR: Right. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: ?? came into the room, 13 she has been laughing out loud, making 14 comments. 15 MR. DANDAR: You know what, there is a 16 microphone right in front of her. 17 MR. HERTZBERG: Look, I'm just telling 18 you. 19 MR. DANDAR: We'll have it on the record, 20 okay? 21 MR. HERTZBERG: I'm telling you. Why 22 don't you get your ?? why don't you get your 23 so?called consultants under control? 24 MR. DANDAR: Please, quit wasting time. 25 MR. WEINBERG: We're not wasting time, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 273 1 that's what's happening. 2 MR. DANDAR: It's not happening, you're 3 making it up. 4 MR. WEINBERG: You know what, Ken, I'm 5 not making it up. It's been very disruptive. 6 MR. DANDAR: There is a microphone right 7 in front of her face so it will be on the 8 record. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q. Now, when you were outside, you were 11 speaking ?? on the last break, on the last several 12 breaks you've been speaking to your ex?wife, 13 correct? 14 A. Uh?huh. 15 Q. Were you speaking about the deposition? 16 A. Well, she asked me how I'm doing 17 physically, you know, because I'm in the 18 deposition. 19 Q. No, but did she give you some advice as to 20 what you should say in the deposition? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You went over this document here, Exhibit 23 1, with her, didn't you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Didn't she ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 274 1 A. Because this document was left in here. 2 Q. Well, didn't she ?? but you went over it 3 with her, didn't you, at the break? She came over 4 and she sat down and you said you didn't remember, 5 and she said oh, yeah, yeah, I remember it. You 6 did that, didn't you? 7 A. She came up here ?? 8 Q. Isn't that what she said and isn't that 9 discussing your testimony? Is that what she said, 10 yes or no? 11 A. I heard her ?? she may have said while I'm 12 sitting right here in front of you, I remember that 13 document. 14 Q. So she did discuss your testimony? 15 A. She was discussing it in front of you, 16 too. 17 Q. No, no, I was walking out the door and I 18 could hear it. We were off the record and she was 19 discussing a piece of evidence with you. Now, do 20 you understand that during this deposition you 21 should not be discussing your testimony with Stacy 22 Young? Do you understand that? 23 A. I was not discussing it with her. If she 24 makes a remark ?? 25 Q. Do you understand that though? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 275 1 A. I understand this. 2 MR. DANDAR: If you could hear, it 3 certainly wasn't in secret. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't say it was in 5 secret. I asked him if he discussed the 6 testimony, he said no. And then I said well, 7 you know, when I was walking out of the room I 8 heard Stacy Brooks ?? I heard you tell Stacy 9 you didn't remember this, and she said oh, 10 yes, yes. And then when you went back on the 11 record and I asked you, you said oh, yes, I 12 remember it. 13 THE WITNESS: Fine. Fine. 14 MR. DANDAR: He didn't discuss his 15 testimony. That was your question. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not making it up. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. Am I? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I heard that, didn't I? 21 A. Let's move on. 22 Q. Now, since ?? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Look Ken, Ken, if you're 24 sitting there talking, I can't ask questions, 25 okay? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 276 1 MR. DANDAR: Wait a minute. I don't ever 2 stop you when your lawyers all get together 3 and talk during a deposition. 4 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. When you're 5 sitting there talking, I can't ask questions. 6 He can't concentrate, I can't ask questions. 7 MR. DANDAR: What are you talking about 8 now? 9 MR. WEINBERG: You just had a 10 conversation with Mike Garko. 11 MR. DANDAR: He's allowed to whisper in 12 my ear. 13 MR. WEINBERG: But you know what, it's 14 very distracting. 15 MR. DANDAR: Oh, please. 16 MR. WEINBERG: It's not oh, please. 17 THE WITNESS: That's what I love about 18 Scientology depositions. 19 MR. DANDAR: Go. Please, start. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q. Now, after ?? after Mr. and Mrs. Minton 22 spent $250,000 to buy the house for the cats, can 23 you tell us what source of income you have had 24 since then? 25 A. First of all, I can't respond to the front SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 277 1 end of your statement because I don't know what he 2 paid for the house. 3 Q. Oh, you don't? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You didn't have anything to do with the 6 closing, is that right? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And we'll go over those documents as well. 9 A. I'm sure you will. 10 Q. So you don't know whether he spent $50,000 11 or $250,000, is that right? 12 A. I don't know if a check was written or if 13 it was on a credit card or give me a bunch of 14 baseball cards and I'll trade you, I don't know. 15 Q. And no one ever told you? 16 A. No. I ?? I later on heard that the house 17 and the land was valued at somewhere, you know, 18 over $200,000. I think what I heard it was 19 something like $210,000, $215,000, whatever. I 20 knew it was in that range but I didn't know the 21 exact value. 22 Q. You don't know what it was listed at 23 before it was sold? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And of course this ?? this house just came SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 278 1 out of the blue, I mean somebody found it, you 2 didn't find the house? 3 A. If you want to ask me a nonsarcastic 4 question I'll answer it. 5 Q. That's not a sarcastic question. 6 A. Asking me if a house came out of the blue, 7 I think it is. 8 Q. Did the house come out of the blue? 9 A. No, houses don't come out of the blue, 10 sir. 11 Q. You found it, you and Stacy found the 12 house, didn't you? 13 A. Thank you for asking. Yes, we did. 14 Q. Okay. And when you were looking for the 15 house, you must have communicated to Mr. Minton 16 what it was being offered for, correct? 17 A. When you say you, which? 18 Q. You, you. 19 A. Me, no. 20 Q. You, Stacy and you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So he just what, by osmosis found out what 23 the house was being listed for? 24 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form; 25 badgering. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 279 1 Q. How did Mr. Minton find out what the 2 house was ?? was being listed for that you and 3 Stacy found? 4 A. You missed one. You asked me, you said me 5 and her, and then you didn't ask if it was her. 6 She was the one that dealt with the matter. I 7 didn't. 8 Q. You're not denying that the house was 9 bought for $247,000, are you? 10 A. I don't know what it was bought for or 11 what was paid. That is my testimony. 12 Q. All right. Now, after this house was 13 purchased in October of 1997, what source of funds 14 have you had? End of '97, all of '98, all of '99? 15 A. I've listed out my income to you 16 previously. 17 Q. So it's the Haney money, correct? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Had you ?? you hadn't received the Dandar 20 money, so that doesn't count, right? Prior to ?? 21 you got that money before the house was bought, 22 correct? 23 A. Yeah, I'm pretty sure about that. 24 Q. Okay. So you have the Haney money, is 25 that it? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 280 1 A. Well, as I said, the FACT Net money came 2 in someplace very late. 3 Q. I'll show you the ?? the FACT Net 4 depositions. Isn't it your recollection, and we'll 5 go through it, that you were paid ?? you and Stacy 6 were paid for FACT Net between the fall of '96 and 7 the spring of '97, and at that point FACT Net went 8 into financial crisis and you didn't get paid any 9 more except that one payment out of bankruptcy? 10 Isn't that your recollection? 11 A. That ?? I don't remember what the ?? when 12 the payment out of bankruptcy occurred. 13 Q. What would you need to see to refresh your 14 recollection when you were getting money from FACT 15 Net? 16 A. Oh, I'm sure you've got tons of documents 17 to show me if you've got something. 18 Q. Well, did you send them bills, invoices? 19 A. Something had been sent well before. All 20 I know it was a long time coming because of the 21 bankruptcy. 22 Q. I'm talking about before the bankruptcy. 23 Is there some bill that you had sent them? 24 A. Before the bankruptcy, yeah. 25 Q. On a monthly basis? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 281 1 A. I don't think so. 2 Q. All right. Now, assuming that we resolve 3 the FACT Net issue, all right, is it ?? is Haney 4 the only source of money after October of 1997 for 5 you? 6 A. October of '97? It may have been. We had 7 switched over to the ?? we were switching over to 8 the sanctuary rather than the consulting work, so 9 the money that was being raised was sanctuary money 10 for the cats. 11 Q. What does that mean? 12 A. Well, you get donations in for the cats, 13 you know, people make donations. We had a lot of 14 donations that were, for example, in the form of 15 food. 16 Q. You mean cat food? 17 A. Oh, yeah. Things that people would do and 18 then once ?? it was easier once we got a nonprofit 19 status. So that's what we were mainly doing is we 20 were putting our efforts into raising money for the 21 sanctuary. 22 Q. Well, was this a tax scheme? 23 A. Tax scheme? Excuse me? 24 Q. Yes. Was the sanctuary a tax scheme? Do 25 you understand that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 282 1 A. I understand the accusation that you're 2 making towards me with a tax scheme. 3 Q. I'm asking you. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Who gave money to the sanctuary? Name one 6 person that gave money to the sanctuary? 7 A. There were people that sent in donations. 8 I mean I don't have it in front of me. 9 Q. Well, is there some record somewhere of 10 who gave money to the sanctuary? 11 A. There probably are in the books, yeah. 12 Every time ?? 13 Q. Where are the books? 14 A. I don't know. Stacy was the one that 15 closed out the sanctuary. I don't know what she 16 did with them. 17 Q. Were those amongst the documents that you 18 destroyed? 19 A. No, she had those documents. 20 Q. Well, did you ever keep those documents? 21 A. No. It was ?? we were ?? we were 22 struggling to work out how the bookkeeping would be 23 done. It was one of the things you learn when you 24 do that sort of enterprise and she was ?? she was 25 keeping track of the money and, for example, every SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 283 1 time a cat was adopted, it was a $75 fee. 2 Q. From whom? 3 A. From us to be paid by the person that 4 adopted the cat because we paid for the spay or the 5 neuter, we paid for the shots, we paid for anything 6 else. And usually, you know, the $75 just barely 7 covered it. 8 Q. Right. So the $75 is just reimbursing you 9 for your expenses? 10 A. Basically, yeah. 11 Q. All right. So ?? 12 A. But otherwise, we also had, you know, yard 13 sales, we had ?? we went to street fairs, we sold 14 drinks, we sold ?? we had volunteers with baked 15 goods. And you go to a street fair, you can make 16 several hundred dollars just donations that way. 17 People come up and just hand you a check for $100 18 made out to the foundation and so the money would 19 come in that way. 20 Q. And you would ?? I'm sorry to interrupt. 21 Would you keep, and I'm talking the collective you, 22 would you keep a record of every dollar that came 23 in? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And in what kind of book was the record SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 284 1 kept? 2 A. You'll have to ask her, she was the one 3 that ?? 4 Q. You must have seen the book, right? 5 A. Well, I know she was going through a 6 couple of different versions and I don't like 7 bookkeeping that much, so I just left it to her. 8 Q. Well, are you ?? were you required by some 9 law to keep these records? 10 A. Well, you'd be required to report them as 11 far as your income as a nonprofit, yes. 12 Q. Did you file tax returns? 13 A. We were too new. You only file your tax 14 return later. It was still too new for a tax 15 return. 16 Q. When ?? let me ?? when was the 17 sanctuary ?? what's it called, by the way? 18 A. It was called Friends of the Animals 19 Foundation. 20 Q. When ?? when was it created? 21 A. Oh, it just sort of evolved. It wasn't a 22 creation but ?? what I'm referring to is when we 23 actually got our tax exemption, then there was a 24 period of ?? a grace period before you actually 25 file it. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 285 1 Q. When did you get your tax exemption? 2 A. I'd like to ask Stacy that question. 3 Q. Go ahead. 4 MR. DANDAR: No. You just answer what you 5 know. 6 Q. Was it before or after the Mintons bought 7 the cat house? 8 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 9 A. I don't like that form of the question. 10 You keep throwing this cat house phrase at me, 11 which is also a phrase for a house of prostitution. 12 If you want to give me a question I can answer, I 13 will. 14 Q. Was it before or after the Minton's bought 15 you and Stacy the house? 16 A. They didn't buy me and Stacy the house. 17 It was while ?? if you want to characterize it it 18 was while we were on Vashon Island. That's one of 19 the most neutral terms. We got the tax exemption 20 while we were on Vashon. 21 Q. So that was after the Mintons had bought 22 the house? 23 A. You just ?? while we were on Vashon 24 Island. 25 Q. Well, were you in some other structure on SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 286 1 Vashon Island other than the house for the cats? 2 A. No, but it just seems to be a big issue 3 with you so go right ahead. We were on Vashon 4 Island. 5 Q. Well, I'm trying to date it, I'm trying to 6 date it. 7 A. It was on ?? while we were on Vashon 8 Island. 9 Q. How long after you were in this house 10 along with the cats did ya'll get the tax 11 exemption? 12 A. Well, we started ?? I'm trying to think. 13 I'm just talking out loud. We started before we 14 moved over because we were having to get the forms 15 and learn about the process, and I was learning how 16 to fill out my own 1023. It was a long process 17 because I wanted to do it myself. So we started 18 long before moving to Vashon or long before 19 Mr. Minton ever showed up. But it's a long process 20 to fill out your forms, then we filed them and it 21 finally came in, I don't know, maybe ?? maybe we 22 got it four or five months after moving to Vashon. 23 Q. How long did you live on Vashon Island? 24 A. Year and a half. 25 Q. How long did Stacy live on Vashon Island? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 287 1 A. About a few months beyond that, I think. 2 Q. What happened to the cats? 3 A. She was the one that found homes for them, 4 working with several other people. 5 Q. She told you that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How much money did you and Stacy raise for 8 the cats? 9 A. I didn't keep the books on that, so I 10 can't give you ?? 11 Q. Well, I'm asking you what you understand. 12 A. In cash? 13 Q. Yes. Cash. 14 A. Oh, I don't know, maybe if we were lucky, 15 maybe $8,000, $7,000. It's just off the top of my 16 head. I'd hate to be, you know, requoted that back 17 in your deposition you testified that, but it seems 18 like between the street fairs and the donations it, 19 you know, it wasn't much. It was enough to buy the 20 kitty litter and to pay for some surgeries and 21 things like that. 22 Q. Surgeries for the cats? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. So we're not talking about enough money 25 for you and Stacy to live on yourself? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 288 1 A. No. It covered all the expenses of the 2 sanctuary. 3 Q. What I meant by that is we're not talking 4 $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, we're not talking 5 anything like that? 6 A. No. 7 THE WITNESS: Can I take a pee break, 8 please? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. 10 (Recess 3:45 to 3:49 p.m.) 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q. Were there any major expenditures that you 13 and Stacy had with regard to the cats after you 14 moved on to Vashon Island? 15 A. Other than ?? did you say other than the 16 cats? 17 Q. No. No. On the cats. In other words, 18 when I say were there any major expenditures, did 19 you ?? were there any capital projects, building 20 them something, anything like that? 21 A. Oh, and again, major expense is a relative 22 term. You know, if you spend $500 on a cat 23 operation, some people consider that outrageous and 24 they'd rather kill the cat than spend $500. So 25 major expense for a cat is varied. In that line of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 289 1 work you learn it's a very relative term. We had, 2 you know ?? I forget what Bumper cost, the cat that 3 came in the window with three legs, one other leg 4 just completely ?? his back leg just torn up. We 5 had him, you know, reconstructive surgery on him 6 and probably that was, you know, $1,500. 7 Q. But somebody reimbursed you for that? 8 A. No. No, by then we just ?? we would get 9 the bill from the vets and we would just work to 10 pay it off. 11 Q. Were there any capital expenditures? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Most of the food was donated? 14 A. For a while we had donations, and 15 sometimes we would have to go out and get our own, 16 scurry and ?? 17 Q. How many cats did you have? 18 A. I guess at the high point maybe 50. 19 Q. And they just ran around the house, is 20 that what they did? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Property? 23 A. No. There was property there. 24 Q. Was there some other structure that the 25 cats stayed in other than the house? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 290 1 A. Well, we ?? we had set up the little barn 2 on the outside that I mentioned, the tack room. 3 Q. That was already there when you ?? when 4 the property was bought? 5 A. That was already there and it even had a 6 cat door that had been put into it. So that was 7 nice. And I just set it up inside because we had 8 some ferals. A feral is a cat that has gone wild. 9 There were some ferals on the property and so they 10 liked that place and we just set them up out there. 11 Q. Can you remember the name of any 12 individual that donated in excess of $1,000 for the 13 cats? 14 A. No, I don't think anybody donated in 15 excess of $1,000. 16 Q. Were the donations in check form or cash? 17 A. Both. The checks ?? the checks were 18 usually, you know, $25, $50, that was the range. 19 Q. Where ?? I'm sorry. Where did you put the 20 checks? Were they deposited into some account? 21 A. The foundation had its own account. 22 Q. And where was that account? 23 A. On Vashon Island. 24 Q. What bank was it in? 25 A. Sea First Bank. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 291 1 Q. Sea, like S?e?a? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And it was just in the ?? in the name of 4 Friends of Animals Foundation? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And do you know what the most money that 7 was in that account was, any idea? 8 A. Not really. I think if it was ever ?? if 9 it even got to $3,000 we would have been lucky 10 because we were always paying the vet bills. 11 Probably ran around $1,000. 12 Q. Did you write checks out of the account? 13 A. I wrote a couple of checks. I was a 14 signatory. 15 Q. Who else was a signatory on the account? 16 A. Stacy. 17 Q. Who ?? so y'all interchangeably had the 18 checkbook? 19 A. No. The checkbook was just there. If we 20 needed to pay for surgery or some food it was just 21 there. 22 Q. Do you remember when the account was 23 opened? 24 A. No, because I'm just trying to remember if 25 we ?? we may have even opened it in west Seattle SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 292 1 and even moved it over to Vashon. 2 Q. And where would the west Seattle branch 3 have been? 4 A. West Seattle branch. 5 Q. Seattle is a big town. Is it like some ?? 6 A. West Seattle, that's it. West Seattle is 7 not big. 8 Q. Okay. So west Seattle branch of Sea 9 First? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, did Mr. Minton give you and Stacy 12 anything for the cats? I'm talking about money. 13 A. No. I didn't see any money. 14 Q. Did y'all use any of the money that was 15 donated for the cats to live on? 16 A. No. 17 Q. If you had done that, that would have 18 violated the tax exempt status, wouldn't it have? 19 A. I don't really know. I know you can end 20 up with paid positions and be tax exempt. 21 Q. I guess what I mean by that is that the 22 IRS would frown on setting up an organization and 23 having people donate to it for some tax exempt 24 purpose and then you would take it and live off of 25 it. They would not think that was ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 293 1 A. I know what you're looking for. We kept 2 records and receipts and all this because we knew. 3 You live ?? you know, you live with Scientology in 4 your backyard, you know they are going to climb all 5 over you and records get grabbed all the time 6 looking for it. So we were ?? we were especially 7 cautious about that, between the IRS and a paranoid 8 organization that wants to come after me all the 9 time. 10 Q. So the answer to my question is you were 11 careful not to use cat funds for your personal 12 expenses? 13 A. Every dollar spent was on the cats in some 14 way with a receipt to be shown for it. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And I would guess, even add to that, maybe 17 99 percent of the money ?? that's why we worked by 18 check, so the check was written and it could be 19 sent back. So every money that came ?? all the 20 money that came out of the account was going to a 21 vet, a store, cat litter, houses ?? places that 22 sold cat vaccines, et cetera. 23 Q. Do you think your total amount of 24 expenses ?? do you have a sense of what the total 25 amount of expenses were in the ?? what was it, a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 294 1 couple year period that you had the sanctuary? 2 A. No, I don't really know because there 3 was ?? there was a point when being incorporated 4 where you really kept track of it as opposed to 5 just out of your pocket and somebody gives you some 6 money, as you evolve into this group. 7 Q. Well, the period ?? you became 8 incorporated on or about the time you moved on to 9 Vashon Island? 10 A. We had started the process prior to moving 11 to Vashon and it came from the IRS because it takes 12 months to get it back from the IRS. 13 Q. I guess what I'm saying is once you became 14 incorporated or once you had made your filing with 15 regard to the foundation, do you have a sense of 16 what your expenses were with regard to the cats? 17 A. No, I really don't. 18 Q. $2,000? 19 A. I don't really know. 20 Q. That would ?? that would be in the book, 21 in the ledger? 22 A. I would assume so. I don't know. 23 Q. Okay. Do ?? did you keep a record of all 24 the cats, sir? 25 A. I'm sorry. I thought this was about the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 295 1 McPherson case. 2 Q. Well, you know, believe it or not ?? 3 A. When you say ?? when you say keep 4 records ?? 5 Q. Believe it or not it is about the 6 McPherson case. 7 A. I know, we're looking for the money that's 8 coming in from the German conspiracy. 9 Q. Is that what you think? 10 A. Oh, I know it. 11 Q. Well, we'll ?? we'll get to ?? 12 A. The German conspiracy. 13 Q. ?? where the money is coming from in a 14 while. 15 A. Yeah, I bet we will. When you say keep a 16 record of the cats, do you know even what you're 17 talking about when you ask that question? 18 Q. Yes. Do you keep a record ?? did you keep 19 a record or did you have to keep a record of the, 20 you know, the individual number of cats that you 21 were taking care of? 22 A. No, you're not required to keep a record, 23 but records would be kept on a cat if, you know, if 24 there was medical work on it ?? do you want me to 25 wait? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 296 1 Q. No. 2 MR. DANDAR: Should I object that they are 3 whispering? 4 MR. WEINBERG: You can if you want to. 5 MR. DANDAR: No, I'm not going to. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I asked for documents so I 7 can show them to ?? 8 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. I don't want 9 to know what they're saying. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Go ahead, I'm sorry. 12 A. Some records were kept. We weren't ?? we 13 weren't required. We pretty much would rely upon, 14 you know, just our local records. 15 Q. Now, have you reviewed any sworn testimony 16 in this case given by Robert Minton? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you reviewed any postings made by 19 Robert Minton with regard to the moneys that he has 20 put into this case and matters related to his 21 efforts against Scientology? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Let me show you what I'll have the 24 reporter mark as Exhibit 3 and ask you if you can 25 identify these series of three cashiers checks SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 297 1 dated October 6th, 1997. 2 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 A. No, I can't. 5 Q. Well, do you know whether you and your 6 wife received $30,000 in the name of Friends of the 7 Animal Foundation on or about October 6th, 1997 8 from Robert Minton? 9 A. Did you say you or your wife or you and 10 your wife? 11 Q. I said you and your wife. 12 A. No, I don't know that. 13 Q. Well, do you know that your wife received 14 $30,000 in a cashiers check made payable to the 15 order of Friends of the Animal Foundation dated 16 October 6th, 1997 from Robert Minton? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Well, did ?? would it surprise you to 19 learn, in light of your testimony here a few 20 minutes ago, that in October of 1997 Mr. Minton 21 sent to your wife, in the name of the Friends of 22 the Animal Foundation, $30,000 by this check? Does 23 that surprise you to learn that? 24 A. Not particularly. If ?? if it was a 25 matter of ?? at that time when we were moving in, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 298 1 if there was something to be done on the 2 property ?? I wasn't ?? as I said, I wasn't 3 handling that part. 4 Q. Well, I asked you a lot of questions about 5 what you did, what expenses there were, whether you 6 would need thousands of dollars for it, and you ?? 7 you were very clear in your testimony that 8 absolutely not, we didn't need that kind of money, 9 never got that kind of money. 10 A. I was also absolutely clear in what I knew 11 about it and what I took care of and I was very 12 specific about that. 13 Q. All right. Well, do you ?? did you ever 14 see in the Friends of the Animal Foundation 15 checkbook $30,000? 16 A. No, because I didn't keep track of it. I 17 told you I was not keeping track of the books. 18 Q. Did y'all spend $30,000 on cats after 19 October 1997? 20 A. I don't ?? I told you I don't know what ?? 21 Q. Do you know ?? 22 A. Can I finish my question? 23 Q. No. It's an answer. 24 MR. DANDAR: He's answering the question. 25 A. Give me another question. This is out of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 299 1 control. 2 Q. Do you know ?? do you know, I mean ?? do 3 you know, do you have any evidence that there was 4 anything like $30,000 spent on cats after October 5 6th, 1997? 6 A. No, I don't know. I told you earlier I 7 don't know what was spent on cats or the property. 8 There is a lot of things that goes into ?? into a 9 few acres. I don't know what he might have 10 requested, what he might have paid for, putting up 11 a fence, bringing in the trash, I don't know. 12 Q. Well, there is two checks in front of you 13 in the amount of $10,000 dated October 6th, 1997, 14 that I'm telling you Mr. Minton testified under 15 oath, that along with the $30,000 check, he sent to 16 y'all in or about October of 1997. Did you know 17 about those $10,000 checks? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you have any idea why not? 20 A. Do you have any idea why I should? 21 Q. Well, you were testifying or about to 22 testify in the FACT Net case at this time, correct? 23 A. I don't have my dates squared away on 24 this. 25 Q. Well, was there an agreement or an SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 300 1 understanding between you, your wife and Mr. Minton 2 that ?? that he would hide moneys that were 3 intended for both of you by putting them in the 4 name of some cat foundation in Stacy's name? Was 5 there an agreement like that? 6 A. No such agreement despite your accusations 7 and paranoia. 8 Q. So if Mr. Minton testified under oath that 9 he had done that precisely for that reason, so that 10 that would not come out at your deposition, that 11 would be incorrect? 12 A. No. That's his testimony and I'm telling 13 you I didn't know anything about it and you can 14 just yell and accuse me of everything. 15 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. That's 16 not his testimony. 17 Q. They just kept ?? they just kept you in 18 the dark then? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, that is his testimony, 20 Ken. 21 MR. DANDAR: No. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Absolutely. 23 THE WITNESS: What is my testimony? 24 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. Mr. Minton's 25 testimony. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 301 1 A. They, shmey, you can do all the 2 conspiracies you want. I stand by my testimony as 3 to what I said and why I ?? why I knew what I did 4 and what I was doing, et cetera. 5 Q. My question is where is this $50,000, do 6 you know? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What happened to the $50,000? 9 A. Ask Mr. Minton or Stacy Young. I don't 10 know. I did not ?? I told you I ?? didn't you hear 11 me? I told you I was not keeping track of the 12 books. I know about certain amounts but I wasn't 13 writing the checks. 14 Q. Well, you were living with Stacy in 15 October of '97, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You were living in the $247,000 house that 18 Mr. and Mrs. Minton bought, correct? 19 A. Let's settle down here. 20 Q. Is that right? Is that right? 21 MR. DANDAR: Objection. He doesn't know 22 the cost. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we're going to show 24 him the cost. 25 A. You know, you're putting this in the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 302 1 frame of the whole accusations as to cost. Let me 2 just try something. It won't work ?? 3 Q. No. No. I have a ?? so you don't want to 4 answer that question, I guess, right. 5 A. Not the way you've ?? it's an accusive 6 question. 7 Q. Let's go to the next question. 8 A. Go for it. 9 Q. Can you account for how it is that you 10 didn't know that $50,000 came into the possession 11 of your wife, Stacy Young, from Mr. Minton in 12 October of 1997? Do you have ?? can you account 13 for that, any explanation for that? 14 A. It's a foundation, which is very different 15 from a married couple's personal income. I don't 16 need to know every little thing that goes on with 17 regard to that. I had things to do, she had things 18 to do. I never saw the checks. 19 Q. And she never told you about them? 20 A. There was no need for her to tell me about 21 them. 22 Q. Well, what about the $20,000 in checks? 23 She didn't ?? to herself. She didn't tell you 24 about that? 25 A. Why ?? there is no need to. It's to the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 303 1 foundation. 2 Q. Those two checks aren't to the foundation. 3 Look at them. 4 A. If you want me to review ?? stop, please. 5 Let me review the checks and ask which ones. 6 Q. Fine. There is three checks on that page. 7 A. Okay. Fine. 8 Q. There is two checks made payable to Stacy 9 Young in the amount of $10,000 apiece. 10 A. Good. And I've testified that I have no 11 knowledge of them. 12 Q. Well, do you remember $20,000 going into 13 your bank account? 14 A. No. Nothing came into my bank account. 15 Q. Well, how many bank accounts did you and 16 Stacy have, as far as you know, back then? 17 A. We had a joint one. There was a ?? there 18 was the foundation one. That's really all I 19 remember. 20 Q. Now, in Mr. Minton's testimony, which is 21 dated January 13th, 1998, he identified these 22 checks. And on page 57 I asked him: 23 Now, the money, the $50,000, the three 24 checks that are in Exhibit 1, which I represent to 25 you is our Exhibit 3, is there any agreement with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 304 1 regard to that money as to how it can be used? 2 Answer: No, except to the extent that 3 $30,000 is to be used for the cat?related aspect. 4 Question: Are those three checks gifts by 5 you to the Youngs? 6 Answer: No, one of them is to the Friends 7 of the Animal Foundation. 8 Question: So it's a gift by you to the 9 animal foundation? 10 Answer: Correct. These two are gifts to 11 Stacy Young. He's referring to the two $10,000 12 checks. 13 Question: So you have made, as of October 14 1997, two $10,000 gifts to Stacy Young? 15 Answer: That's correct. 16 Question: Why did you give Stacy Young 17 $20,000 in October of '97? 18 Answer: She asked for it. She might 19 have ?? yeah, she asked for it. 20 Now, my question to you is is it your 21 testimony today that you, prior to today, have ?? 22 had no knowledge that in October of 1997 Stacy 23 received two $10,000 checks and one $30,000 check? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. You don't remember coming into a load of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 305 1 money back in October of '97, is that right? 2 MR. DANDAR: Objection; asked and 3 answered. Don't answer this question anymore. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Why is that? 5 MR. DANDAR: Because you've asked this 6 question at least 15 times. He has no 7 knowledge, no knowledge, no knowledge. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, I can ask this 9 question. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Do you remember in or about October of 12 1997 there being a lot of additional funds being 13 available? 14 A. I've answered that I don't know the amount 15 of the funds. I know about certain expenditures 16 and what we were doing, you know. I told you the 17 downstairs, that we had to reconvert the downstairs 18 into the sanctuary. 19 Q. Well, what did you ?? 20 A. She ?? she was handling that. I laid ?? I 21 laid it out on a temporary basis and then we had 22 some rooms installed, which were isolation rooms. 23 Q. And that cost what? 24 A. She was handling that with the contractors 25 who came in and built some isolation rooms. There SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 306 1 was fencing that was put up and around. Most of 2 that was ?? most of that was done while I was gone. 3 Q. What do you mean when you were gone? 4 A. Just ?? just off traveling someplace. I 5 came back at the start. But, no, I don't know 6 specific amounts. I just know ?? can tell you what 7 we were doing on the property. 8 Q. Did y'all purchase any personal items of 9 any worth during that period of time? 10 A. No. About the biggest thing I can 11 remember is getting a chainsaw for some of the 12 trees. 13 Q. How about a car, did y'all have a car? 14 A. No. There was a car that was donated to 15 the foundation. 16 Q. By Mr. Minton? 17 A. No. 18 Q. By whom? 19 A. By a woman who, when her husband died, she 20 didn't drive and she said here, you know, I'm going 21 to sign this over. It was a van and she signed it 22 over to the foundation. 23 Q. When was that? 24 A. Gosh, it was before ?? before we went to 25 Vashon. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 307 1 THE WITNESS: And I have to go to the 2 bathroom, that's why I'm wiggling around. 3 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. Take off your 4 mike. 5 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. 6 (Recess 4:11 to 4:17 p.m.) 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q. Now, sir, let me read you the following 9 that Mr. Minton testified to under oath in January 10 of 1998. 11 MR. DANDAR: What case? 12 MR. WEINBERG: This case, Lisa McPherson. 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. 14 MR. WEINBERG: This is on page 50, 15 line 7, and we were talking about these three 16 checks. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. The question was ?? we were talking, 19 actually, about the two $10,000 checks and the 20 question was: 21 Is there a particular reason why they were 22 to Stacy Young as opposed to Vaughn and Stacy 23 Young? 24 And the answer is: Yes. 25 The question is: What is that reason? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 308 1 The answer is: Vaughn did not wish to 2 appear to be communicating with me and, in fact, 3 didn't because he was soon to be in a deposition as 4 an expert witness and he didn't want it to appear 5 that there was any improprieties involved in him 6 talking to me. 7 Question: So that he preferred that 8 moneys that would be received from you with regard 9 to his fight against Scientology be sent to his 10 wife as opposed to him? 11 Answer: He wasn't talking about a fight 12 against Scientology. 13 Question: Was he an expert witness in a 14 Scientology related case? 15 Answer: Yes. 16 Question: What was ?? this is you he's 17 talking about ?? question, what was he talking 18 about? 19 A. What's the he when you say what's he? 20 Q. That's you. Mr. Minton is being asked 21 about you. 22 A. Go ahead. 23 Q. Question: What was he talking about about 24 Scientology? 25 Question: Could you rephrase the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 309 1 question? 2 The question: You just said that he 3 wasn't talking about Scientology when he said that 4 he would prefer that he not be tied to you prior to 5 his testimony as an expert in this case. 6 Answer: Well, that's not exactly the way 7 it transpired. 8 Question: Can you explain how it 9 transpired in your words? 10 Okay. I didn't discuss any of this with 11 him. I discussed it with Stacy. 12 Question: Go ahead. 13 Answer: That's it. I didn't discuss any 14 of this with him. I discussed everything with 15 Stacy, not with Vaughn. 16 Question: This deposition that Mr. Young 17 was appearing in, Mr. Dandar was going to be his 18 attorney, wasn't he? 19 Answer: In retrospect I know that, but I 20 didn't know that at the time. 21 Question: When did you find that out? 22 Answer: Mr. Dandar told me later. 23 Question: Before or after the deposition? 24 Answer: Before. 25 Question: You told Mr. Dandar that you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 310 1 had sent the Youngs $50,000? 2 Answer: No, I didn't. 3 Did you tell him that you had sent them 4 any money? 5 Answer: I might have. I don't remember. 6 So my question to you is, after reading 7 that, does that refresh your recollection that 8 Stacy and/or Mr. Minton mentioned to you or 9 discussed with you a way in which he could get you 10 money without it coming out in your deposition? 11 A. No, that wasn't my testimony. 12 MR. DANDAR: Nor was it the testimony from 13 the deposition, as you represented before. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, no, it's worse than 15 that. In other words, what the deposition in 16 essence says is that there was a ?? was a 17 scheme to keep this information from coming 18 out at the deposition that you were about to 19 undergo in November of 1997. That's the 20 implication. 21 MR. DANDAR: Is that a question or is 22 that a lecture? 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q. Well, you do remember talking to 25 Mr. Minton prior to your November 1997 deposition, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 311 1 right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You do remember giving your November 7th, 4 1997 deposition, don't you? 5 A. Vaguely. 6 Q. Well, let me show you a copy of it so that 7 we can just make sure. 8 MR. DANDAR: What case was that in? 9 MR. WEINBERG: FACT Net. 10 MR. DANDAR: Is that the second FACT Net 11 depo? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Probably the third. 13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q. Let me show you a cover page and ?? well, 16 first, let me ask you. Do you remember that 17 Mr. Dandar appeared as your lawyer in a deposition? 18 A. Yeah, I guess that's right. He was at 19 the ?? yeah. 20 Q. What were the circumstances of Mr. Dandar 21 appearing, representing you, in a deposition? 22 A. He offered. 23 Q. How did that come about? 24 A. I don't know. I mean he called and 25 offered. You would have to ask him how his offer SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 312 1 came about. 2 Q. Do you know how he knew you were about to 3 be deposed? It wasn't in his case, was it? 4 A. Well, you said it was the FACT Net case. 5 Q. Well, let me show you and ask you ?? let 6 me show you the cover page ?? pages and ask you if 7 you remember that on November ?? it looks like 8 the 5th, 1997 you were deposed in Denver by 9 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Dandar appeared as your personal 10 lawyer. 11 A. This was in ?? no. No. This was in Los 12 Angeles. 13 Q. Was it in Los Angeles? All right. 14 A. I remember Mr. Rosen. He's ?? he's not as 15 smooth as you are. 16 Q. I take that as a compliment. 17 MR. DANDAR: That is a compliment. 18 A. Yeah, he ?? he's sort of a thug, beat you 19 over the head type. He doesn't have any good, 20 slicing, laser wit about him. He just sort of gets 21 in there and pounds away. 22 Q. Flattery will get you everywhere. 23 A. You've got some style to you and I can 24 appreciate why they've got you as their attorney. 25 Yeah, I remember this one. Mr. Rosen is a hard SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 313 1 person to forget. And this was at ?? hang on. 2 This should have been at the ?? yeah, at the 3 Hastings, Hastings. 4 Q. All right. So it's a Denver case but the 5 depo was in Los Angeles? 6 A. Yeah. How that all came about beats me, 7 come to think of it. 8 Q. And this is Bridge Publications, Inc. 9 versus FACT Net, right? 10 A. Uh?huh. 11 Q. This is a case that when you first got 12 involved in it, you ?? you did a bunch of 13 declarations, right? Yes, no? 14 A. Well, did some declarations as well as 15 court testimony. 16 Q. In fact, you were deposed a number of 17 times in this case, sort of stopped and started, 18 right? 19 A. Possibly two or three times, yeah. 20 Q. And eventually Mr. Rosen, following a 21 court order, got to take this deposition in Los 22 Angeles, right? 23 A. I don't know about a court order. 24 Q. In any event, Mr. Dandar showed up, right? 25 A. Yeah, and the thing that puzzles me is I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 314 1 can't figure out why I'm doing this in Los Angeles. 2 It's almost as if, you know, hey, we're all going 3 to be in LA type of thing, why not? Because I 4 don't ?? come to think of it, I have no idea why I 5 would do it in Los Angeles as opposed to doing it 6 up in Seattle. It certainly wasn't convenient. 7 Q. So out of the blue one day Mr. Dandar 8 called you and said I'm here to serve? 9 A. No, I wouldn't characterize it as that. 10 Q. Well, what did he ?? what did ?? how did 11 it happen? 12 A. As I said, I'm trying to remember how I 13 even got to do it in Los Angeles rather than 14 Seattle. I don't remember that now. 15 Q. Well, let's put aside how it got to be in 16 Los Angeles and let's focus how it got to be that 17 Mr. Dandar was sitting at your side during this 18 deposition. 19 A. Well, it might be one in the same. If he 20 was doing, you know, other work in Los Angeles and 21 it came up, it could have been totally 22 coincidental. If I could figure out why I was in 23 Los Angeles for the depo rather than Seattle, that 24 might answer the question, but you're not 25 interested in that part. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 315 1 Q. No, I'm interested in how it was that 2 Mr. Dandar ended up being your personal attorney in 3 this deposition. 4 A. Graham Berry had been my attorney before 5 and he was somewhere, he was out of the FACT Net 6 case at that point. Wow, this is a very confusing 7 period. To the best of my recollection, I don't 8 recall, and I wish I knew why I was in Los Angeles 9 for a depo. 10 Q. How long ?? 11 A. At the Paul Hastings firm, too. 12 Q. How long ?? well, do you remember that 13 your deposition happened right after Mr. Minton had 14 bought the house, Mr. and Mrs. Minton had bought 15 the house? 16 A. Well, right after is a relative term, 17 but ?? 18 Q. Well, how about like five days after? 19 A. No, I did not know that part. 20 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 Q. Well, let's mark as an Exhibit, Exhibit 4, 23 a package of six documents that I believe was 24 identified by Mr. Minton during his deposition as 25 documents relating to the closing or acquisition of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 316 1 the house. And they are not great copies but if 2 you will look at them, I think that they will 3 suffice. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Do we have another copy of 5 that? That's it? 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 THE WITNESS: There is a date here of 8 10?16. I can't ?? the note ?? I don't know 9 whether it was faxed, signed, 10?16, 10?17. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, his signature is not 11 on that document, nor is his name. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Actually, his signature is 13 on the document. He's just looking at it and 14 you're not testifying. 15 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry. Well, you 16 know, you're right. Is there a question 17 pending? 18 A. Okay. I've seen these. It's ?? a lot of 19 that is illegible. 20 Q. All right. Now, when did you see these? 21 A. Just now. 22 Q. At or about ?? 23 A. Just now. 24 Q. Okay. Do you remember signing documents 25 relating to the closing? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 317 1 A. That last page was a document that I 2 signed after an inspection, just as the residents 3 of noting things that had to be done. That's how 4 it was explained to me. 5 Q. So it was signed within a week or so of 6 the closing? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you did an inspection, you were there 9 for an inspection being done? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And it says for the purchasers and it's 12 your signature. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So you were signing it for the Mintons? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And they had ?? you had their 17 authorization to sign it? 18 A. He had been told there is this ?? 19 Q. He being who? 20 A. Minton, and Stacy ?? Stacy had spoken with 21 him and she said, you know, this guy is going to 22 come out and do it and ?? 23 Q. Do what? 24 A. To do ?? inspect the place because that's 25 the thing you finally do, the final inspection SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 318 1 where they inspect the foundation and roof and all 2 that. And either it could either be shipped back 3 or just signed. Stacy said, you know, we're just 4 going to go ahead and sign for it. I said okay, 5 cool. If they want a receipt on it, I'll give it 6 to them. 7 Q. You see that the document has a $247,000 8 number on it. You don't deny the fact that the 9 house was purchased for $247,000, do you? 10 A. No. I just didn't know the purchase 11 price. 12 Q. And this 19731 Vashon Highway is the 13 address of the house that you and Stacey lived in 14 with the cats, is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, when did you move into the house if 17 it was bought, according to this document, on 18 October 16th, 1997? 19 MR. DANDAR: May I see that for a minute? 20 MR. WEINBERG: (Handing to counsel). 21 A. I'm using the inspection of the house 22 trying to remember, because it says that was the 23 24th it was signed. It was probably around that 24 time, the 24th, because I think the ?? I was trying 25 to think of moving out from the other place, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 319 1 getting it closed out. It would be on or soon 2 after the 24th. 3 Q. Had you moved into the house at the time 4 of your November 5th deposition ?? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. ?? in Los Angeles? 7 A. I don't know. As I say, it's either then 8 or soon ?? it's possible. 9 Q. So it was in that time period? 10 A. It was in that general time period. 11 Q. Now ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: This says the closing was 13 supposed to be November 3rd. I mean who knows 14 what really happened. 15 MR. WEINBERG: These are documents ?? the 16 reason they look like this is that ?? my 17 recollection is that Minton produced these at 18 his deposition because they were being faxed 19 back and forth. 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Whatever. 21 Q. Was Mr. Minton in Seattle at the closing? 22 A. Not that I know of. 23 Q. Were you at the closing? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was Stacy at the closing? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 320 1 A. I don't know. I think the 2 correspondence ?? I think she mentioned to me that 3 the closing is really carried on between the 4 realtor and Mr. Minton and his wife. 5 Q. Now, describe ?? when did you first ?? 6 what was the first time that you communicated with 7 Bob Minton? 8 A. Maybe first half of September. 9 Q. Of '97? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. And what were the circumstances? Did he 12 call you or you call him? 13 A. No, he called. I had made a posting to 14 the Internet talking about all the harassment that 15 Scientology's OSA, et cetera, were doing to try to 16 close down the cat sanctuary. The harassment was 17 getting very vicious, you know, anonymous calls and 18 protests, and I just said I wanted it on the record 19 as to what was happening. 20 I really did because we were ?? we didn't 21 need a house, we needed to protect the cats. So I 22 just wanted it on the record and I put a long 23 thing, which I'm sure they have got copies that you 24 can dig up. I knew they would have copies. And I 25 don't know, maybe a week or so or whenever, soon SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 321 1 after that, got a call from this guy who identified 2 himself as Minton and said hey, I saw your ?? I saw 3 this posting and the problem you are having. He 4 says any ?? you know, do you need any help? 5 Well, you know, being used to, you know, 6 OSA calls where they send in their plants and their 7 spies and their, you know, their goons ?? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. 9 Q. Go ahead. 10 A. It's very accurate. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Just move to strike. 12 Q. Go ahead and describe the call from 13 Mr. Minton. Leave out the commentary. 14 A. Knowing how ?? knowing how OSA sends in 15 their plants and double agents ?? 16 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 17 A. These are my motives, sir, as to the 18 response. 19 Q. I'm not talking about your motives. 20 MR. DANDAR: Robert, just continue on. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 Q. I asked you about the conversation with 23 Mr. Minton. I didn't ask you what was going 24 through your brain. I asked you about what he said 25 to you and you said to him in that conversation. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 322 1 MR. DANDAR: Continue your answer. Go 2 ahead. 3 A. So I said well, that's really nice of 4 you. Thank you for your concern, but no. Oh, 5 well, good luck. Okay. Bye. And I hung up. 6 Q. So that was it? 7 A. That was it. 8 Q. And you told Stacy this? 9 A. I may or may not have. You know, we 10 always get little calls and things and people 11 calling up and, you know, you don't ?? you don't 12 report on every little call. 13 Q. All right. So then he called you again? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. And when was that? 16 A. Oh, I think a couple of days later. He 17 says hey, I called you a couple days ago, how is it 18 going? I said oh, pretty much the same, and with 19 the same suspicion I just said, you know, I 20 appreciate that. He says well, I really would like 21 to help. Oh, well, thanks a lot. You know, fine, 22 you want to help, a lot of people want to help. 23 Send food or something, send some cat litter. 24 Q. Send us a cat what? 25 A. Send some cat litter. You know, you have SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 323 1 that sort of attitude when somebody is saying I'm 2 calling from Boston. Okay. Fine. So I think I 3 even hung up a second time saying thanks a lot. 4 Q. Did he offer you money? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did he say who ?? who he was? 7 A. He identified himself and said he was 8 reading about the cats, are you having problems 9 with the cats? And I said yeah, and the second 10 time he says is this still going on? I said of 11 course it's going on, you know it's going on 12 exactly like I posted on it, you know they are just 13 harassing the shit out of us, you know they got 14 inspectors up the wazoo trying to shut us down, 15 they've got complaints about cat disease, dead cats 16 and then social workers arriving, they are just, 17 you know, typical ?? 18 Q. So you mean ?? 19 A. Typical ?? I'm telling you what I said, 20 typical fair game stuff. I said more to him this 21 time. He says, well, I really want to help you 22 out. I said, well, I appreciate that but we're 23 managing at the time, we'll figure something out, 24 okay, bye, and that was it. 25 Q. All right. So then he called you a third SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 324 1 time or he sent you some message? 2 A. No, I think he called a third time and ?? 3 and at that point I was coming up to my deposition. 4 I didn't want ?? want to talk to more people about 5 this because this was all going to come up. So he 6 called and I said Stacy, listen, this is the third 7 time this guy has called. Why don't you just take 8 this call, talk to this guy, because I don't want 9 to talk to, you know ?? knowing this thing, you 10 just try to keep things nice and neat. So I didn't 11 want to talk about it anymore, you know. 12 Q. So then Stacy did what? 13 A. She talked to him. 14 Q. Well ?? and she told you about the 15 conversations? 16 A. Yeah, and then she said listen, this guy 17 wants to help us out with the cats and figure out 18 something to do. I said Stacy, I'm going to go 19 into deposition. I really, you know ?? they are 20 already on us, all over us, you know. OSA is 21 shitting all over us trying to destroy the 22 sanctuary as their type of fair game pressure. So 23 just to keep this nice and neat, I'm going to go in 24 just, you know, I don't want to deal with that. 25 And that's how I did that was just because, you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 325 1 know, just like this. I'm sorry to say the way 2 your questions characterize everything, the cat 3 house and all that. And I know it would just get 4 dirty. It was already a dirty, dirty fight. 5 Q. So ?? so you just put blinders on while 6 your wife arranged for $50,000 in cash and a 7 $247,000 house to be bought for you, is that what 8 you're saying? 9 A. I did not say that. 10 Q. All right. So at some point before your 11 deposition, because you signed the inspection 12 document, you knew that the Mintons had purchased a 13 two ?? a several hundred thousand dollar house that 14 you were going to be living in, right? 15 A. Probably. 16 Q. All right. But you didn't know that they 17 had given Stacy $50,000 worth of checks, you didn't 18 know that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. But when it came up at your deposition, 21 you were very reluctant to volunteer any 22 information with regard to the house or Mr. Minton, 23 weren't you? 24 A. Yes, because we had already come under 25 severe fair game attack. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 326 1 Q. Well, it made you look like you were a 2 bought witness, didn't it? 3 A. A what witness? 4 Q. A bought and paid for witness. It made 5 you look like that, didn't it? 6 A. That's your characterization. 7 Q. How would you characterize $50,000 in cash 8 and a $247,000 house just before you testified? 9 How would you characterize that? 10 A. I would characterize that as just 11 simply ?? and if you will also look at my Internet 12 posting, when I posted that, which I did ?? 13 Q. What Internet posting? 14 A. The one that he called off of and I had 15 never spoken to Bob Minton before that. 16 Q. Do you have that posting? 17 A. No. Ask the ?? 18 Q. I'm asking you. Do you have the ?? or was 19 that part of the documents that you destroyed a few 20 years ago? 21 A. I got rid of my copy. They have got 22 copies here. They've got copies of everything. 23 The date is on that of what I did and the responses 24 that I was getting from it, and that was the first 25 time I ever heard from him. And I already knew at SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 327 1 the time that I was going into depo, even at the 2 time, and that's why I wanted that on the record. 3 Q. Now, you had seen postings by Bob Minton 4 prior to his phone call about his efforts against 5 Scientology, hadn't you? 6 A. No, I had never heard the name before, 7 never saw anything. 8 Q. So you hadn't seen his posting where he 9 offered, the year before, 300 plus thousand dollars 10 for anybody that would get rid of the tax 11 exemption? 12 A. Never saw it. 13 Q. You didn't see that posting? 14 A. As I said, when he gave his name I had no 15 idea that he had even posted anything, knew 16 anything about Scientology. 17 Q. Now, how many times did Mr. Minton come to 18 Seattle before the house was purchased? 19 A. Just once that I know of. No, no. Wait. 20 Whoa. No, just one. It was the one ?? no, when 21 the house was bought. No, wait. No, it was after 22 the house was bought. 23 Q. All right. So is it your testimony 24 that ?? let's just assume for purposes of the 25 question that the house was bought sometime in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 328 1 October or early November, depending on ?? 2 A. Closing times. 3 Q. ?? on what the closing time was. Is it 4 your testimony that Mr. Minton and Mrs. Minton did 5 not travel to Seattle with regard to that house 6 closing prior to the closing? 7 A. Not that I know of. 8 Q. When did you learn that Mr. Minton was 9 going to put up big bucks to buy a house that you 10 could live in? 11 A. I don't have a date. 12 Q. Well, how did you learn that? 13 A. Stacey had told me that as ?? because we 14 had already been looking for other property long 15 before he called. We had already been searching 16 other places that would, if I may use the word, 17 escape the type of regulations that the city of 18 Seattle had. So we were searching ?? 19 Q. You mean as to animals? 20 A. Yes. And Vashon Island was county 21 property and not city, so they had different 22 regulations. And because it was so close, a 23 15?minute ferry ride, it was a very good location 24 for us to still be able to reach Seattle. So we 25 had gone over to Vashon several times to look at SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 329 1 that because it was the closest ?? 2 Q. To look at the island you're talking 3 about, property on the island? 4 A. Yes, to find out what we could do because 5 it was the closest county land to west Seattle. So 6 we had already established some familiarity with 7 the island, we had already talked to some realtors, 8 talked to some people. So we already had a 9 familiarity with the place well before he called 10 in. 11 Q. You obviously ?? you and Stacy could not 12 have afforded, could not have afforded to ?? to 13 purchase a $250,000 property in October of '97, is 14 that correct? 15 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. I'm 16 a veteran, I don't know what a veteran loan would 17 do. If I were to say no and somebody would show 18 me how I could do it ?? I never asked, I never 19 asked. 20 Q. Well, let me ask you something. In 21 October of 1997, how much money did you and Stacy 22 have in the bank? 23 A. I don't really know. 24 Q. $1,000? 25 A. Maybe a few thousand dollars. We were SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 330 1 paying for the cats and we were having to pay for 2 the move and all. 3 Q. Did you own any property? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you own a car at that time? 6 A. Yeah, we owned a car at that time. 7 Q. Did you have a job, did she have a job? 8 A. Other than what I've described to you. 9 Q. Other than this consulting work? 10 A. No. No. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm going to go to the 12 bathroom. This is what it does in the late 13 afternoon. 14 (Recess from 4:43 to 4:47 p.m.) 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q. Were you and Stacy on the brink of 17 bankruptcy in the October, November 1997 time 18 frame? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know if either you or Stacy made 21 that representation to Bob Minton at that time? 22 A. I certainly didn't. 23 Q. Do you know if Stacy did? 24 A. I don't know all of her conversations with 25 him, no. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 331 1 Q. You and Stacy did file for bankruptcy, 2 chapter seven, in 1995, is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you were, what's the word, discharged 5 from bankruptcy, is that the word? 6 A. Whatever the word is. 7 Q. And that was done in Washington? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that was what ?? was that in between 10 consulting jobs? That was before the FACT Net 11 consulting, is that right? Do you know? 12 A. Possibly. 13 Q. You were not employed at the time that you 14 filed ?? neither you nor Stacy were employed at the 15 time you filed for bankruptcy, correct? 16 A. Well, other than the consultation jobs, 17 no. 18 Q. Y'all had to file an application, is that 19 right, for bankruptcy, a petition or whatever you 20 want to call it? 21 A. Yes, yes, a petition. 22 Q. Hired a lawyer? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Had to make representations as to your 25 assets and liabilities, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 332 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Let me show you ?? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Do we have another copy of 4 this? 5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 5 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. Let me show you what I'll have the 8 reporter mark as the next Exhibit, which is 9 Exhibit 5. Let me show it to you and ask you if 10 you recognize this, and particularly if you 11 recognize this as a bankruptcy petition that was 12 filed under your and Stacey's signature on or about 13 September 6th, 1995. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Do you recognize that? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. I want to ?? I want to substitute because 18 that one has markings on it. Can you just compare 19 what I've given you, which is Exhibit 5, to the one 20 that has the ?? 21 A. Oh, you have markings on this. 22 Q. Yeah, that's why I'm taking it back. 23 A. It's not that much better. Okay. 24 Q. Same thing, right? 25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just taking the one SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 333 1 with the yellow back. 2 Q. Okay. If you will look at Exhibit 5, do 3 you recognize this as a ?? as a package of 4 bankruptcy materials relating to your bankruptcy 5 filing in September of '95? 6 A. Yeah, that seems to be accurate, yes. 7 Q. And is it fact ?? is it a fact that you 8 filed ?? you and Stacy filed a voluntary petition 9 for chapter seven on ?? on September 6th, 1995? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, if you go to the fourth page, which 12 is a summary of schedules, it shows a ?? do you see 13 that? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Summary of schedules. It shows that in 16 the summary of schedules there is Schedule B ?? 17 Schedule A, which shows real property, nothing. 18 You didn't own any real property then, correct? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Schedule B, personal property, and it 21 shows a little more than $12,000, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So the total amount of your assets is 24 listed, your and Stacy's assets, at a little more 25 than $12,000, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 334 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Then it has schedules for liabilities and 3 there is a Schedule D for secured claims, and 4 that's $2,550, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Schedule E for priority claims, which is 7 $3,161.50, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you understood that to be the IRS 10 claim against you? 11 A. I ?? I wouldn't want to say that. 12 Q. Okay. Well, we'll go over the schedule. 13 And then unsecured claims, which would be like 14 credit cards and things of $55,000 plus, correct? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. And then it shows other schedules, current 17 income, $3,500, current expenses $3,892, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And as you sit here today, it's your 20 belief that this was an accurate filing, true and 21 accurate filing? 22 A. Yes. I don't ?? when that remark you said 23 about IRS thing, that's the only part I would 24 wonder about. 25 Q. Well, we'll go over it because it's in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 335 1 here somewhere. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. If you go to the personal property 4 schedule, which is the next document, do you see ?? 5 A. I've got real property is the next 6 document, Schedule B, personal property, 3. 7 Q. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. 8 Could I see yours for a second? That's where you 9 get to this. There is a schedule and the next page 10 is Schedule B, personal property. 11 A. Oh, I was reading this. 12 Q. Yeah, but you can see, since you had no 13 real property I guess there was no ?? no schedule 14 for it. Now, on the personal property schedule, it 15 shows two bank accounts. Are those the two that 16 you are talking about? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. One checking account at Sea First and one 19 savings account at Sea First? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the total amount of funds in those two 22 accounts is what? 23 A. $539.92. 24 Q. Right. You didn't have any ?? you and 25 Stacy didn't have any other cash that was stuck SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 336 1 somewhere else at the time of this filing, did you? 2 A. No, other than what you just carry on your 3 person. 4 Q. Right. Then it shows security deposits, 5 nothing. It shows household goods and it lists 6 $1,000, right? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Books, pictures, art objects, 9 collectibles, $250, nothing of great value, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Wearing apparel, which is clothes, I take 13 it, $500, correct? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. No real expensive jewelry or clothes, is 16 that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Fire arms, well, nothing. It says sports 19 equipment and it says $650, right? Is that like a 20 bike, is that what that was? 21 A. Where are we? 22 Q. We're in that same page, personal 23 property. 24 A. Stacey had a ?? there was a bicycle and a 25 saxophone, those were probably the most valuable. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 337 1 Q. Okay. Didn't have any insurance policies 2 or stock or anything like that, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. By the way, since 1992, have you had 5 any ?? any health insurance policies? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You and Stacy? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Well, since 1989 for that matter, 10 you haven't had any, is that correct? 11 A. I take that back. Yes, we had ?? we got 12 ourselves a Blue Cross. We did have Blue Cross, 13 finally. 14 Q. For what period of time, approximately? 15 A. Oh, like '95 to '98, within that period, 16 which was a minimal high deductible policy. 17 Q. But you've given that up? 18 A. Well, it was in both of our names and with 19 the divorce, that was terminated. 20 Q. So you don't have any health insurance 21 now? 22 A. No. 23 Q. When were you divorced, by the way, what 24 date? 25 A. Finalized February '99. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 338 1 Q. And where was that? 2 A. Seattle. 3 Q. Now, on the next page, which is ?? at the 4 bottom it says Schedule B, personal property 3. It 5 lists $3,500 and it says two Mac computers, five 6 years old, one laptop, some printers, a fax. You 7 had one basically workable computer, is that 8 correct, incorrect? 9 A. No. No. We had three workable computers. 10 Q. What did you use the two Mac computers 11 for? 12 A. Well, she had her computer and I had my 13 computer. 14 Q. I see. And then a laptop as well? 15 A. Yeah. We had done desktop publishing in 16 San Diego, which is when these were picked up, and 17 that's why they were good Macs for desktop 18 publishing. And so we just carried them on across 19 and that was when the laptop was also ?? that was 20 even when the laptop and the ?? you can see the 21 timetable, bought five years earlier, six years 22 earlier. 23 Q. They were ?? they were pretty antiquated 24 then? 25 A. Yes, they were getting old. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 339 1 Q. Now ?? and there was no other personal 2 property and the whole total comes to about 3 $12,000, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Then the next page shows exempt property, 6 which would be things like awards for personal 7 injury, things like that, and it's got $3,490. Do 8 you know what that's from? 9 A. I was told, if I remember, this is the 10 property you need in order to make a living, which 11 means the computers. As writers, being able to do 12 desktop publishing, that capability, that the 13 computers, like a mechanic's tools, would fall 14 within that category. 15 Q. So ?? so that would really come off of the 16 $12,000 then, basically? 17 A. You're going a little past me but I'm just 18 speculating. That is what should have been an 19 exempt property. 20 Q. Okay. And then the next page ?? well, 21 it's really the same thing as the last page. And 22 then we get to creditors holding unsecured priority 23 claims, Schedule E. And do you see the IRS there? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Right? And it says $2,661, 1993 1040. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 340 1 What's that all about? 2 A. That was still an unpaid tax bill that we 3 had just gotten extensions on and which you can do 4 on your tax returns, and we just had to list it. 5 It was something that we had ?? going to be taking 6 care of and the guy said you put down all. I said 7 IRS? He said yeah, you put it down IRS. 8 Q. But it doesn't get discharged, right? 9 A. No, no it doesn't get discharged but you 10 have got to list it as a claim. 11 Q. And is that for wages that were earned 12 with regard to this consulting and ?? in the 1993 13 time frame? 14 A. It's right on the edge. I'm not too sure 15 because I didn't start my work for a couple of 16 years after leaving in '89, so it's right on the 17 cusp there. 18 Q. And was that paid? 19 A. This? 20 Q. Did you ever pay that off? 21 A. Finally, yes. 22 Q. Okay. When was that paid off? 23 A. I don't know, but I ?? there was a couple 24 of payments made on it because with the discharge 25 of the bankruptcy, we wanted to try to deal ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 341 1 because even with the IRS you can at least send 2 them something, so that's what we were doing. 3 Q. The next page has unsecured claims and it 4 lists a MasterCard, $9,388. That was just a 5 personal MasterCard? Was that in your name, 6 Stacy's name? 7 A. Probably mutual. 8 Q. And then a Citibank Preferred. What kind 9 of card was that? 10 A. Credit card. 11 Q. For $8,600, was that a Visa, MasterCard or 12 do you know? 13 A. Probably Visa. 14 Q. And then another Visa card from Colonial 15 National Bank for $4,065, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, that's ?? that's over $20,000 worth 18 of credit card expenses. During what period of 19 time was that run up, do you know? 20 A. That started back in 1989. 21 Q. Had you been sued? 22 A. No. No. We had just been struggling with 23 it. When we ?? when we fled in '89, after a period 24 of time to try to get ourselves relocated, I had 25 managed to acquire a number of credit cards. And SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 342 1 so we were one of those people that started trying 2 to live on the credit cards when we were really 3 establishing ourselves. 4 Q. You just didn't pay them off? 5 A. Couldn't pay them off fast enough. Then 6 the thing that prompted this one day was when I saw 7 a magazine article and it was the most astounding 8 fact, something like a $10,000 credit card thing, 9 and if you make minimum payments it would go for 10 something like 25 years, like a house, like buying 11 a house. We saw that and we said there is no way 12 you can get out of this. You keep making minimum 13 payments and you're into this thing for 25 years, 14 so ?? 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're out of time, 16 about 20 seconds. 17 MR. DANDAR: It's five o'clock anyway. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to put ?? 19 well, just continue tomorrow. I can figure 20 out where I started. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, the last 30 minutes 22 we've been talking about the bankruptcy 23 filings. 24 (Recess at 5:03 p.m.) 25 PLEASE REFER to Volume III for further SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 343 1 deposition testimony. 2 NOTE: The original and one copy of the 3 foregoing deposition will be held by Mr. Shaw; copy 4 to Mr. Dandar. 5 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing 6 of the deposition transcript will be handled by the 7 office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm Dandar & 8 Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Tampa, 9 Florida. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 344 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 Volume II 3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the 4 foregoing deposition given by me on December 21 & 5 22, 1999, in Tampa, Florida, and the following 6 corrections, if any, should be made in the 7 transcript: 8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Subject to the above corrections, if any, 19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing 20 deposition. 21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this 22 __________ day of ____________________ , 19___. 23 24 ________________________________ 25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 345 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 COUNTY OF POLK 5 6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby 7 certify that the witness named herein personally 8 appeared before me and was duly sworn. 9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10 24th day of December, 1999. 11 12 13 14 ________________________________ 15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR 16 Notary Public ? State of Florida 17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 346 1 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA 3 COUNTY OF POLK 4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter 6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared 8 before me for the taking of the foregoing 9 deposition, and that I was authorized to and did 10 stenographically and electronically report the 11 deposition; and that a review of the transcript was 12 requested; and that the transcript is a true and 13 complete record of my stenographic notes and 14 recordings thereof. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an 16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause, 17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party 18 connected with this litigation, nor am I 19 financially interested in the outcome of this 20 action. 21 DATED THIS 24th day of December, 1999, at 22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida. 23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 12?22?99 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000