1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97-01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume IV 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25 530 1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602 15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265 21 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Ms. Lara Cartwright Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet) 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 531 1 I N D E X 2 Volume IV 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 5 Service Organization, Inc.: 6 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 533 8 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 626 9 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 627 10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 628 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 37..................... 544 14 Defendant's Exhibit No. 38..................... 552 15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 39..................... 573 16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 40..................... 581 17 Defendant's Exhibit No. 41..................... 587 18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 42..................... 599 19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 43..................... 610 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 532 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97-01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume IV 12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral 14 examination in the above-styled cause, for the 15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes 16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil 17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before 18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional 19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary 20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at 21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference 22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 10, 2000. 23 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 24 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 533 1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 2 had and taken: 3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly 5 sworn, continued to testify as follows: 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q. Mr. Young, this is a continuation of your 9 cross-examination and you understand you're still 10 under oath? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you speak to anyone last night with 13 regard to anything that had to do with your 14 testimony, and I'm not -- I don't -- I'm asking you 15 as expansive a question as there is. I mean 16 directly, indirectly, verbally, in writing, 17 Internet. So there is no confusion here, I'm 18 asking you whether you have had any dealings with 19 anyone with regard to your testimony, your cross, 20 whatever redirect there might be, any whatsoever? 21 A. Well, Stacy called Jesse and handed me the 22 phone. She said how is it going? I said it's 23 going okay but I can't talk about it. That was the 24 end of that. 25 Q. Anything else? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 534 1 A. No. Oh, I spoke to my friend in 2 Cincinnati that I'm staying with. She said the 3 same thing, how is it going? I said I can't talk 4 about it but otherwise it's going okay. 5 Q. So no communications with you at all, 6 directly, indirectly, from Mr. Dandar, anybody 7 working with Mr. Dandar, any person associated with 8 this case as to how you might -- about your 9 testimony, what you might say, how you might phrase 10 your answers, any further answers, anything like 11 that? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Totally expansive question. 14 A. No. 15 Q. Now, the -- yesterday you testified, I 16 believe, when I asked you, that it was incorrect 17 that Mr. Hubbard had developed Scientology based on 18 his understanding of the traditions and beliefs of 19 other religions, including Buddhism. Do you recall 20 that I asked you that and that was your answer? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, the -- of course, first of all, we 23 did look at the Phoenix lectures yesterday, do you 24 remember those? 25 A. A reprinted portion of -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 535 1 Q. Well, probably one of the -- you would 2 agree, because you did read or listen to the 3 Phoenix lectures, that those lectures themselves 4 incorporated some of the most fundamental tenets of 5 Scientology, including the axioms, correct? 6 A. True. 7 Q. He discussed the fundamental practices of 8 auditing, talked about the Scientology tech, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And he talked in length about what he 12 described were the origins, what he drew on from 13 other religions over history, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, it's also correct, is it not, that if 16 there is -- if there are any tapes that 17 Scientologists review or listen to, it would be a 18 combination of the Phoenix tapes and The Hope of 19 Man, those are the most -- those are the most 20 important tapes that Hubbard did with regard to 21 Scientology, aren't they? 22 A. I suppose that's debatable but I -- you 23 know, for the purpose of moving on, I will accept 24 whatever point you're going to make. 25 Q. All right. Now, you listened to both The SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 536 1 Hope of Man tape and to the Phoenix lectures, 2 didn't you? 3 A. No, I did not. 4 Q. Which one didn't you listen to? 5 A. I've never heard The Hope of Man tape. 6 Q. Well, did you read The Hope of Man 7 transcript? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you read the Phoenix transcripts? 10 A. Yes, and heard the tapes and even made a 11 comparison of the difference between the transcript 12 and the tapes. 13 Q. And when did you do that? 14 A. Oh, this was -- first was 19 -- probably 15 1971, '72, on the first time I read it, and then a 16 year or two later I made the comparison. 17 Q. Now, you yourself, sir, have publicly 18 stated that Scientology had its roots in Buddhism 19 and Far Eastern religion, haven't you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you did that while you were a member 22 of the Church of Scientology? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you did that in what, in a variety of 25 settings, didn't you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 537 1 A. I'm sure I did. 2 Q. And you remember you were interviewed by 3 reporters and said that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And do you remember that amongst the -- 6 actually, there were articles in the newspaper 7 quoting you having said that, is that right? 8 A. There could well have been. 9 Q. Now, the command lines that you testified 10 about in your direct testimony, do you remember how 11 you talked about command lines? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Those command lines that you testified 14 about, those are the corporate lines in 15 Scientology, correct? 16 A. Well, there is both. 17 Q. I'm just saying that when you say 18 command -- when Scientology talks about command 19 lines, when you talked about command lines, you're 20 talking about the command lines within the 21 corporate structure of Scientology between Flag and 22 the mother church, CSI, between CSI and RTC and the 23 like, correct, that's what you're talking about? 24 A. That was part of it. There is more. 25 Q. There was a corporate restructuring in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 538 1 1981, '82, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And RTC, as a result of that corporate 4 restructuring, the Religious Technology Center, was 5 placed at the top of the command line, was it not? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And CSI, as the mother church, and we 8 talked about that yesterday, and other churches 9 were under RTC in the command line structure, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And as the chairman of the board of RTC, 13 David Miscavige is currently the seniormost church 14 official in the command lines of Scientology, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The authority that an individual has in a 18 Scientology organization, like CSI, RTC, Flag, 19 comes from that person's post or position in the 20 org, is that correct? 21 A. Give me that one again, please. 22 Q. The authority that an individual has in a 23 Scientology organization, like CSI or RTC or Flag 24 Service Organization here in Clearwater, comes from 25 that person's post or position in that particular SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 539 1 org, correct? 2 A. Yes and no. 3 Q. Well, you say yes and no. 4 A. Well, it does and then there is sometimes 5 when it doesn't. 6 Q. Well, when it doesn't come in a particular 7 organization -- let's take Flag, for instance. Who 8 is in charge of Flag? 9 A. That would be the commanding officer. 10 Q. All right. And that person is in charge 11 of Flag because of his or her post, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. It doesn't make one bit of 14 difference whether that person's rank is petty 15 officer number two, like you, or some other 16 position, that person, because of his or her post, 17 is in charge of the Flag org, correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Now, even though once you joined the Sea 20 Org your rank as a petty officer number two, or 21 whatever it was, class two, was low, you could and 22 did on occasion give orders to others with a higher 23 rank because of your post, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And in fact, you testified in the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 540 1 deposition that I took a month or so ago that on 2 occasion you gave orders to people to WDC, watch 3 dog committee members, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. They were Sea Org members, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And at the time you were a lower rank than 8 them, correct? 9 A. Could have been. The point was it was 10 immaterial. 11 Q. Because of your post? 12 A. Position. 13 Q. Position in the org -- which org was that, 14 ASI? 15 A. ASI, and the position of ASI was -- the 16 organization was considered senior to it, so it 17 didn't matter what post I had, it was just the 18 position of the organization. 19 Q. Now, the -- 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 Q. All right. I'm going to have to work off 22 my copy here. I apologize. 23 You know that, what was it, in '81 or '82 24 that RTC was actually incorporated? 25 A. 1981. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 541 1 Q. '81? And there were articles of 2 incorporation and bylaws, is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the purpose as set forth in those 5 documents of RTC was to ensure and maintain the 6 purity and integrity of the religion of Scientology 7 as it had been developed by Mr. Hubbard, is that 8 right? 9 A. That's what the document says. 10 Q. Right. And -- I mean you've reviewed 11 these documents, haven't you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And as a -- and in addition, in this same 14 period of time the service marks and trademarks of 15 Scientology were seated to or transferred to or 16 given to RTC, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And in addition to those, some of the 19 upper level materials that had not been publicly 20 published were ceded to or given to RTC, correct? 21 A. That's what I understand. 22 Q. So that as this process developed, RTC was 23 created to protect the integrity and purity of the 24 religion and had -- and was the possessor or owner 25 of some of the most fundamental religious materials SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 542 1 of the religion, correct? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Well, you don't consider the marks and the 4 upper level materials to be some of the most 5 fundamental ecclesiastical materials of 6 Scientology? 7 A. No, that wasn't the point. You said the 8 reason why it was created. 9 Q. Okay. So you disagree that RTC was 10 created as the protector of the religion? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. Even though that's what all of 13 the documents say, that's the point you're making, 14 right? 15 A. That's the point why I say -- 16 Q. I see. I see. I see. 17 A. Why I say it's a fraud. 18 Q. Okay. Now, but, of course, those 19 arguments were made to the IRS prior to its 20 decision in 1993 and the IRS said -- rejected every 21 one of those arguments that you're just making, 22 that RTC and the corporate structure was a fraud, 23 didn't it? 24 A. I don't know. They never spoke to me. 25 Q. Well, you read the materials. You know SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 543 1 that, don't you? 2 A. I don't know what they -- what I saw was 3 the 1023, which is equivalent to responses to 4 interrogatories. I don't know what else was really 5 asked or what was provided. 6 Q. Now, you know that the -- by the 7 reorganization, by the incorporation of RTC, that 8 RTC was given the power and the responsibility in 9 protecting the religion to send missions into any 10 other Scientology organization, you know that, 11 don't you? 12 A. Yes. I don't know if the mission part is 13 stated in the bylaws. 14 Q. Well, we'll show you. 15 A. I don't remember that but it's certainly 16 stated in policy. 17 Q. We'll show you that. Just so it's 18 absolutely clear, in your direct testimony you 19 talked about missions, Sea Org missions, and you 20 showed a dictionary that defined a mission as a Sea 21 Org mission, but the fact of the matter is is that 22 as of 1981, 1982, the very incorporating documents 23 and bylaws of the RTC authorized the RTC itself and 24 CSI, for that matter, to send missions into various 25 organizations to protect the religion, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 544 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. Now, let me show you what we'll mark as -- 3 let me show you what we'll mark as the next 4 exhibit, which -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Might it be 37? Good 6 guess. 7 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 37 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. -- which is the -- bear with me for one 10 second. -- which is the bylaws, says revised 11 bylaws of RTC, Religious Technology Center, and 12 they are dated June 15th, 1982. All right? 13 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 37? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 37. 15 Q. Now, I want to refer you to some 16 paragraphs, particularly page 5 under Purposes. 17 MR. DANDAR: Let me interrupt just a 18 minute. Are you stipulating I have a running 19 objection to anything in reference to this 20 document since it's not properly identified or 21 authenticated, okay? 22 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 23 Q. Now, you do recognize this as the bylaws? 24 A. I wouldn't authenticate this. 25 Q. No, you wouldn't think of that, I mean but SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 545 1 when you were in ASI back in 1982, you certainly 2 reviewed the various bylaws and articles that were 3 -- of incorporation that were being worked on by 4 others at ASI at the time, correct? 5 A. Sometimes. 6 Q. But so it's absolutely clear, you didn't 7 -- you weren't part of the team that worked on 8 these documents though, right? 9 A. No. 10 Q. There were others at ASI that worked on 11 these documents, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And there were a number of lawyers that 14 they worked with to put together these documents as 15 well, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And those people would certainly be much 18 more qualified to speak as to the -- well, those 19 would be the experts, if there are any, on the 20 corporate structure of Scientology, right? 21 A. That's debatable as to if they told the 22 truth. 23 Q. Well, you're certainly no expert as to the 24 corporate structure of Scientology, are you? 25 A. Well, no, but if an organization is SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 546 1 created, for example, to -- for the purpose of -- 2 Q. I move to strike. I asked you a simple 3 question. I said are you -- I said you're not an 4 expert on the corporate structure of Scientology 5 and you said no. Now, if Mr. Dandar, in redirect, 6 wants to ask you further, fine, but the answer is 7 no. 8 Now -- 9 MR. DANDAR: So you don't want him to 10 explain your answer then? 11 MR. WEINBERG: That's not an explanation. 12 Obviously, Ken, it's very apparent that 13 regardless of what he said, somebody sat down 14 with him yesterday, and so the idea is is he's 15 going to make speeches today. Well, we're not 16 going to have that. 17 MR. DANDAR: Why is that obvious? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Because that's very 19 obvious. 20 MR. DANDAR: Tell me why. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Because it's very obvious 22 what he's done. Ever since we've been here 23 this morning he's started to make speeches. 24 A. Excuse me? 25 MR. WEINBERG: And not answering SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 547 1 questions. 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, the record will 3 reflect that you're totally wrong. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q. Now, if you go to page 5 of the document, 6 sir, if you go to page 5 of the document, under 7 Purposes, you'll agree with me that the bylaws of 8 RTC say that the corporation shall espouse, 9 present -- 10 A. Where are you? 11 Q. Page 5 at the top, where it says Purposes: 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. The corporation shall espouse, present, 14 propagate, practice, ensure and maintain the purity 15 and integrity of the religion of Scientology as the 16 same has been developed and may further be 17 developed by L. Ron Hubbard, et cetera, correct? 18 A. That's what the document says. 19 Q. Now, if you go to page 6 at the top, just 20 so it's clear, this -- I mean you do understand 21 that the RTC has articles of incorporation and 22 bylaws? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you understand that the other 25 Scientology organizations, like Flag and CSI, have SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 548 1 articles of incorporations and bylaws, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You also understand that there are license 4 agreements with regard to the marks and some of the 5 religious technology between RTC and CSI, correct? 6 A. Well, the marks and I wouldn't call it 7 religious technology but however it might be said 8 in the corporate papers. There are agreements, 9 licensing agreements. 10 Q. And there are what, in effect, are 11 sublicense agreements between CSI and other 12 Churches of Scientology as to the same, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, if you go to page 6 at the top, am I 15 correct that the bylaws says: The church, this is 16 the church -- what is defined as the RTC in this 17 document, as the protector of the religion of 18 Scientology shall manage, use and make available 19 for use by other church organizations, the 20 substantial body of confidential advance technology 21 ("Advanced Technology") which is part of the 22 scriptures and those service marks and trademarks 23 which are used in connection with the religion of 24 Scientology. 25 That's what it says, isn't it? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 549 1 A. That's what it says. 2 Q. And this confidential advanced technology, 3 that is these -- that is what has been described 4 colloquially as some of the upper level materials 5 that there has been so much litigation about over 6 the last few years, correct? 7 A. That's part of it, yes. 8 Q. Now, if you go to page -- you can't see 9 the page but it's page 8, where it says Creed, the 10 bylaws incorporate the Scientology creed that we 11 talked about yesterday, correct? 12 A. I'll stipulate the document says what it 13 says. 14 Q. Okay. Now, if you go to page 29, Section 15 3. 16 A. I'm just having trouble with these. They 17 are not numbered and the page is cut off. 18 Q. Do you see it? 19 A. Section 3, Religious Orders? 20 Q. Yeah. And that is a paragraph that 21 describes the establishment by RTC, in this case 22 the church, of establishing and maintaining 23 religious orders and those religious orders would 24 include the Sea Org, correct? 25 A. I have no idea. Religious orders appears SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 550 1 nowhere in Mr. Hubbard's writings. 2 Q. Okay. So you don't know what they're 3 talking about there? 4 A. Well, it's not in anything of 5 Mr. Hubbard's. The phrase never appears religious 6 order, so it's a legal term. 7 Q. You don't know what a religious order is 8 then, right? 9 A. I don't see a definition here. 10 Q. So you don't know that the Jesuits are a 11 religious order? 12 A. Well, the Jesuits are a religious order, 13 but I'm just saying it's not within the Scientology 14 material. 15 Q. Right. I mean you are supposedly an 16 expert on something, I mean you would -- something 17 that has to do with religion at least and you would 18 certainly acknowledge that in the history of 19 religion, there -- with regard to any number of 20 religions, there have been religious orders of 21 people that have dedicated themselves to the 22 religion, correct? 23 A. Yes. That wasn't my point. 24 Q. I want to make sure. And that just as you 25 have Buddhist monks or Christian friars or Catholic SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 551 1 Jesuits, there are -- it is certainly consistent 2 with the way in which religions have gone about 3 their business over the centuries to have orders, 4 fraternal orders, religious orders, of those that 5 are most dedicated to the religion, correct? 6 A. Bona fide religions have done that. 7 Q. So, basically, what you're saying is is 8 that if somebody that has become an apostate and 9 has supported themselves as an apostate over the 10 past nine or ten years of your life, that in order 11 to continue to get money from people that are 12 trying to profit off of Scientology, you'll say 13 whatever you have to say with regard to the 14 religion, correct? 15 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative. Is 16 that a question or a speech? Object to the 17 form. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'll withdraw the 19 question. 20 Q. Now, if you go to -- now, let me show you 21 and have marked -- 22 A. Are we done with this document? 23 Q. At the moment, yes. -- the license -- let 24 me have marked as the next exhibit, which is 38, a 25 license agreement, the license agreement between SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 552 1 RTC and CSI dated May 18th, 1982. 2 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 38 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have a copy, Ken. 5 Yeah, here's one right here. 6 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 7 Q. All right. Now, you didn't work on this 8 agreement, did you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. But you were aware of it, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And if you will look at page 1 of the 13 agreement, the first page, it further recites that 14 RTC was formed as the protector of the religion and 15 to maintain the purity and ethical use of the 16 religion, correct? 17 A. First of all, I don't know that this is 18 the document that it says it purports to be and the 19 document speaks for itself. 20 Q. All right. Well, are you going to act as 21 a lawyer today too or are you just going to answer 22 my questions? 23 A. Well, you asked me before to verify the 24 document. I can't verify the document and you're 25 reading it, so it just says what it says. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 553 1 Q. Well, let's look at the back. We're going 2 to go over what it says. Okay? I'm going to be 3 able to establish rather easily that these 4 documents are what they are. Okay? 5 A. That's fine. 6 Q. All right. So I'm not too concerned about 7 that. 8 MR. DANDAR: But I will object until that 9 happens in court. 10 MR. WEINBERG: You can object all you 11 want to. 12 MR. DANDAR: That's right. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I mean you can object all 14 you want to but, unfortunately, you're the one 15 that accelerated this process, Ken. Okay? 16 MR. DANDAR: No, no, no. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No, you accelerated this 18 process. 19 MR. DANDAR: Are we going to argue? Just 20 ask questions. 21 MR. WEINBERG: You accelerated the 22 process, just so the record is clear. 23 MR. DANDAR: Do you know how much editing 24 I'm going to have to charge you for for your 25 speeches to edit this out? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 554 1 MR. WEINBERG: It's kind of tough to have 2 gotten a document authenticated in court when 3 we do the trial testimony six months before 4 the trial. Okay? 5 MR. DANDAR: Well, this could have been 6 certified by somebody with the authority of 7 the Church of Scientology and -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, get out of here. 9 MR. DANDAR: -- appropriately stamped. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Stop, just stop. 11 MR. DANDAR: This could have been printed 12 from a printer this morning. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That's what we did, and 14 we, you know, we got the signatures and, you 15 know, we did all that just this morning. We 16 just sort of threw this document together. 17 Now, of course, these documents are on file 18 with the IRS and have been looked at by people 19 over the years. 20 MR. DANDAR: Well, they should have a 21 Bates number on them. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Have been looked at by, 23 you know, I mean -- 24 MR. DANDAR: Filed by the IRS, so where 25 is the IRS stamp? You know what I'm saying? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 555 1 He's not authenticating documents. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I know what you're saying. 3 What you're saying is you're trying to disrupt 4 the deposition and what you're doing -- no, 5 you are, Ken, and what you're doing is just 6 absurd, but, you know, however long it takes, 7 we'll do it. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q. Now, look at this document, please, sir. 10 MR. DANDAR: My objection is noted. 11 Q. Now, it says in the recitals that the RTC 12 was formed to be a protector of the religion of 13 Scientology and to maintain the purity and ethical 14 use of the philosophy and technology of the 15 religion. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't take that 17 down so fast. Sorry. 18 Q. It says, does it not, sir, that RTC was 19 formed to be the protector of the religion of 20 Scientology and to maintain the purity and ethical 21 use of the philosophy and technology of the 22 religion, including the services and the products 23 associated with the religion, and to own the 24 service marks and the trademarks associated with 25 those services and products, is that correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 556 1 A. Yes sir. 2 Q. That's what it says? 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. And in fact, you learned that that was the 5 case, that RTC did own the marks, the service marks 6 and the trademarks and some of the upper level 7 materials, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you know from the time that -- until 10 you left the church that the RTC was responsible 11 for protecting the integrity of those marks and the 12 way that those marks and Scientology was applied 13 around the world, you know that, correct? 14 A. I missed the front end of that. You said 15 from a time to? 16 Q. From the time that this was incorporated 17 in 1981, 1982, until you left in 1989, you know 18 that, in fact, RTC was responsible for protecting 19 the use of those marks and the use of the materials 20 around the world, you know that they were? 21 A. No, that wasn't true. 22 Q. Okay. Now, the -- if you go to the next 23 page, 2, subparagraph B: CSI is the Mother 24 Church -- 25 A. Excuse me. What page are you on? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 557 1 Q. 2, subparagraph B: CSI is the Mother 2 Church and the highest ecclesiastical authority of 3 the religion of Scientology, and has been and is 4 committed and dedicated to the advancement and 5 dissemination of the religion of Scientology in 6 accordance with the Scientology Scriptures, through 7 the organizations of the religion of Scientology, 8 including Churches and Missions, that are under its 9 ecclesiastical control and supervision, that's what 10 it says, isn't it? 11 A. That's what it says. 12 MR. DANDAR: Same objection. 13 MR. WEINBERG: You have a continuing 14 objection. 15 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to just keep 17 interrupting? 18 MR. DANDAR: No. I'd be like you then. I 19 don't want to do that. Right, continuing 20 objection. Go ahead. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q. And CSI is the mother church, isn't it? 23 A. That's its current designation, yes. 24 Q. That's been its designation since it was 25 created in 1981, '82, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 558 1 A. That was its designation, that's what I 2 just said. 3 Q. Now, C: RTC is the owner by assignment 4 from L. Ron Hubbard of certain service marks and 5 trademark, diagnostic spiritual healing technology, 6 Scientology applied religious philosophy, and it 7 lists other things. 8 And that was true, wasn't it, RTC was the 9 owner of that? 10 A. I lost you. You seemed to break up your 11 reading. I didn't follow that. Where were you? 12 Q. C. It is true that RTC was the owner of 13 those things that are set forth there? 14 A. I'm not going to contest it, the document. 15 Q. Now, if you go to page 4, under Grant -- I 16 mean you profess to be an expert in Scientology, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. So amongst that which you 20 supposedly know something about is the corporate 21 structure of Scientology, right? 22 A. No. That's -- corporate is not part of 23 Scientology. 24 Q. Okay. So you don't really know anything 25 about the corporate part of Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 559 1 A. I didn't say that. 2 Q. You know, by the way, that the Catholic 3 church has a corporate structure, you know that, 4 don't you? 5 A. I would assume so. 6 Q. You know that the diocese are incorporated 7 in this country? 8 A. I would assume so. 9 Q. You know that there is a hierarchical 10 structure with, in essence, the Vatican on the top 11 and all these corporations underneath it, you 12 understand that, don't you? 13 A. I'm sure it is. 14 Q. And you know that they have a body of laws 15 called the canon laws that relate to the way in 16 which the church runs, you know that, don't you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Scientology is set up in a similar way, 19 isn't it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Now, on page 4, Grant, RT -- where it says 22 Grant, it says: RTC grants to CSI -- 23 A. Excuse me. Which paragraph again? 24 Q. Where it says Grant. 25 A. Okay. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 560 1 Q. RTC grants to CSI the right and license to 2 use each and all of the marks in connection with 3 services pertaining to the religion of Scientology 4 rendered by CSI in all countries of this planet 5 where RTC has or acquires rights in the marks. 6 Now, that's what -- that was true, you 7 recall that when you were at ASI and at the church 8 from '82 to '89, that, in fact, RTC had granted the 9 right and the license of CSI as the mother church 10 to use certain marks and technology, correct? 11 A. I didn't see the grant but I assume -- 12 assume it would be there. 13 Q. Now, if you go to page 7, subparagraph B, 14 it's correct, is it not, that RTC had the right to 15 prescribe standards and specifications with regard 16 to proper use and display of the marks, correct? 17 A. That's what the document says. 18 Q. But that was the practice too, you 19 understood that, that that's what happens while you 20 were there, that RTC was the one that set the 21 standards, correct? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Well, you understand that CSI and its 24 related organizations using the marks were 25 prohibited from engaging in any activity that was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 561 1 in conflict or hostile to the Scientology -- to 2 Scientology, you understood that they couldn't do 3 that, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that you understood that if they did 6 do that, that RTC had the power and the authority 7 to stop it? 8 A. Amongst other sections. 9 Q. Now, let's look at D in this license 10 agreement. And you would acknowledge that a 11 license agreement is a legal document, right, is a 12 legal agreement? 13 A. Maybe, if -- unless you held a gun to my 14 head and had me sign it, you know. 15 Q. Are you suggesting that somebody held a 16 gun to -- let's see who signed this. 17 A. No, no. I just -- my point is you 18 asked -- 19 Q. Well, you know who Heber Jentzsch is, 20 right? 21 A. Of course. 22 Q. Right. And you know who -- can you 23 recognize the signature of the then president of 24 the RTC? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 562 1 Q. Do you know who the president of RTC was 2 in 1982? 3 A. No. 4 Q. But you're not suggesting that anybody 5 held a gun to Heber's head, right? 6 A. That wasn't your questions. 7 Q. Stephen Marlowe, you know who Stephen 8 Marlowe is? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. All right. Now, let's go to D on page 7 11 and let's look at this closely. This license 12 agreement says: RTC shall have the right to 13 monitor all operations of CSI and its related 14 organizations, inspect all books, records and 15 facilities pertaining to the use of the marks, and 16 then it goes on. And in fact, that was the 17 situation, that RTC could come in at any time in 18 any of the Scientology organizations and inspect, 19 correct? 20 A. Amongst other organizations, yes. 21 Q. Now, let's go to E: RTC may, if it ever 22 deems it necessary or advisable, send a corrective 23 mission to any organization authorized to use the 24 marks, to correct any deviation from the standards, 25 specifications or guidelines of this agreement, and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 563 1 then it goes on to say CSI shall reimburse them for 2 it. 3 That was the case, that's what the 4 document says and that was, in fact, the case, 5 wasn't it? 6 A. That what's the document says and that was 7 not the case. 8 Q. That was not the case. So RTC didn't have 9 the right to send a mission? I thought you said a 10 few minutes ago that they had a right to send a 11 corrective mission in to any organization? 12 A. I said amongst other things. The Sea Org 13 was a different echelon. 14 Q. I'm not talking about the Sea Org right 15 now. I'm talking about RTC. 16 A. I'm just answering your question. I said 17 they were amongst that and there was other 18 prongs -- 19 Q. Well, answer my question as to RTC. Did 20 RTC have the right to send in a corrective mission 21 at any time in any org in Scientology to correct a 22 situation? 23 A. That's what the document says. 24 Q. And that was, in fact, the case, wasn't 25 it? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 564 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, that's the case today, isn't it? 3 A. They send in missions but you won't let me 4 answer my question so I can only respond to the 5 document. 6 Q. That's the case today, isn't it, that the 7 RTC at any time in any place can send a corrective 8 mission into any Scientology organization? 9 A. I'm sure it is. 10 Q. And that was the fact in 1995, wasn't it, 11 that the RTC at any time in any place could send a 12 corrective mission into any organization? 13 A. I'm sure it was. 14 Q. Now, when the word -- you know what a 15 corrective mission is, don't you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Well, tell the jury what a corrective 18 mission is. 19 A. A narrative? 20 Q. What's a corrective mission? I mean -- 21 well, strike that. 22 A corrective mission is a group of people 23 that an org would send in to take action with 24 regard to an incident, correct? 25 A. To fix or correct something. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 565 1 Q. Right. So when it says mission, mission 2 is just a descriptive term essentially for one or 3 more people that an org would send somewhere else 4 for a task, right? 5 A. Derived from the naval term sending out a 6 mission. 7 Q. Right. And in this case -- I mean in this 8 case, in this document -- I mean -- well, strike 9 that. 10 You realize that the Catholic church 11 provides for sending missions from the Vatican to 12 its diocese or churches around the world to take 13 control with certain incidents, you know that they 14 have that ability? 15 A. I don't know that. 16 Q. You don't know that? 17 A. I don't know what they send out. I'm not 18 ready to testify about the Catholic church. 19 Q. Well, but you are supposedly an expert, 20 correct? 21 A. Not on the Catholic church, no. 22 Q. Well, but you seem to find the fact that 23 Scientology has created organizations that are 24 incorporated to be, you know, something strange or 25 different or evil. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 566 1 A. I didn't say that. 2 Q. Well, that's the suggestion though, isn't 3 it? 4 A. No. 5 Q. But the truth of the matter is, is that 6 you know that many churches in the United States, 7 Baptist churches, Catholic churches, other 8 Christian denominations, are incorporated for legal 9 purposes and legal reasons, you know that, don't 10 you? 11 A. I'm sure they are. 12 Q. And you know that many religions are 13 organized, not just the Catholic church, but many 14 other religions are organized in a hierarchical 15 fashion, you know that, don't you? 16 A. I'm sure they are. 17 Q. And you know that many religions, 18 including the Catholic church, have provisions that 19 allow them to protect the integrity of the religion 20 and the scripture, you understand that, don't you? 21 A. I don't know that. 22 Q. Well, you understand that -- and we talked 23 a little bit about it yesterday, that -- do you 24 understand that in religions over the years, not 25 just the Catholic church, but other churches, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 567 1 excommunicate members, do you understand that 2 churches have that ability? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that oftentimes people that are -- 5 that have violated the tenets of the church, 6 whatever the church is, whether it's the Catholic 7 church or the Christian church or a fundamentalist 8 church, are subject to ecclesiastical laws that 9 would lead to, in some cases, excommunication, you 10 understand that, don't you? 11 A. Some might. I understand the concept. 12 Q. Well, you -- I mean you understand that 13 religions, many religions have their own legal 14 systems, internal legal systems, ecclesiastical 15 legal systems, you understand that, don't you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that many religions, just like the 18 Catholic church, essentially have a system of 19 ethics, internal ecclesiastical ethics, you 20 understand that, don't you? 21 A. Religions and churches have that. I'm not 22 arguing with that. 23 Q. Right. And so that -- I mean, you know, 24 in this country, in this country, where we have 25 First Amendment protections, you know, our SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 568 1 government stays out of the internal ecclesiastical 2 affairs of religions, you understand that, don't 3 you? 4 A. As long as it doesn't break the law. 5 Q. Well, I mean, for example, I mean let's 6 just take the discrimination laws. We don't have 7 women priests in Catholic churches, right? They 8 are excluded from becoming priests. And yet -- and 9 we have strong laws in this country that protect 10 women's rights, the rights of minorities, but they 11 are, because they are a religion, they are 12 protected from those discrimination laws, aren't 13 they? You know that, don't you? 14 MR. DANDAR: Objection; calls for a legal 15 opinion. 16 A. I was just -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead. You've made 18 your -- 19 MR. DANDAR: It is not a question. 20 MR. WEINBERG: It is a question. 21 Q. You understand that, don't you? 22 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 23 A. I can only respond to what I know 24 publicly. I'm not familiar with the laws of a 25 church versus court rulings on discrimination, I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 569 1 just know that, no, there are no women priests and 2 I know there are discrimination laws, but I can't 3 go into the interfacing of the law on that. 4 Q. But you are here supposedly as an expert 5 and -- 6 A. About Scientology. You keep trying to 7 change it. 8 Q. No, but, you know what, sir, 9 Scientology -- your position is is that Scientology 10 isn't a religion? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And your position is at odds with what the 13 United States government has determined, the State 14 Department, Labor Department, IRS, with regard to 15 Scientology in various courts, right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 17 Q. Right? 18 A. There you go. 19 Q. Right? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. And your position is at odds with many 22 religious scholars that have concluded otherwise, 23 that Scientology is a religion, right? 24 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 25 Q. Correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 570 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Okay. And the only way that one can 3 determine, if it were relevant, whether or not 4 Scientology is or is not a religion is to look at 5 religions and what religion is, correct? 6 A. That would be one of the ways. 7 Q. Right. So that if the point is somehow 8 that the way in which Scientology has been set up 9 corporately is in question, then one could look at 10 other religions and see how they do it, right, as 11 an expert? 12 A. If an attorney -- you're talking legal 13 terms now. 14 Q. I'm talking expert terms. So that if 15 Scientology is set up, for example, like the 16 Catholic church in a corporate structure, one might 17 say, well, that -- I understand now why. 18 A. Understand what? 19 Q. Strike that. That just wasn't a good 20 question. I mean do you understand that -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, can you just restrain 22 yourself, please? Okay. Restrain yourself. 23 MR. DANDAR: This is torturous. 24 MR. WEINBERG: No. Restrain yourself. 25 MR. DANDAR: Restrain myself? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 571 1 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to do this in 2 court, do you want to go huh, huh, and make 3 all these noises? 4 MR. DANDAR: Well, you just went -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: I cleared my -- 6 MR. DANDAR: That was part of your 7 question. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Stop. 9 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. 10 MR. WEINBERG: No. You made a lot of 11 noise yesterday about people smirking and 12 doing this and you're sitting there going huh, 13 huh, and making noise, and rolling your eyes. 14 MR. DANDAR: Well, the microphone will 15 pick up if I said huh, huh. Okay? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Everybody in the room can 17 hear it. 18 MR. DANDAR: Did you hear that? That's 19 clearing my throat. 20 MR. WEINBERG: You weren't clearing your 21 throat, and you know it. And don't -- 22 MR. DANDAR: Please, go. You're wasting 23 time. 24 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not. You're 25 wasting time. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 572 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. Now, the point is what else can an expert 3 look at other than the body of the field that he's 4 supposedly an expert in, correct? 5 A. True. 6 Q. All right. But you haven't? 7 A. Haven't what? 8 Q. You haven't studied the body of the field 9 of religion, have you? 10 A. I have studied the body of Scientology and 11 have been active in that body extensively. 12 Q. But what you haven't done, and you can't 13 do, is study other religions and compare them to 14 Scientology, you haven't done that, have you? 15 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 16 Q. Have you? 17 A. I've responded to my studies earlier, 18 what qualifies me. 19 Q. Well, just answer my question. You 20 haven't done that, have you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You have done that? 23 A. To the extent that I have, yes. 24 Q. No, but you haven't because you don't -- 25 because you haven't studied Buddhism or Catholicism SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 573 1 or all these other religions that I've asked you 2 about, correct? 3 A. Are you going to accuse me or ask me? 4 Q. I just asked you. 5 A. We went through this. I went through my 6 studies of what I had read and my studies of 7 philosophy and my graduate studies and that's on 8 the record. 9 Q. Let's go to the next license agreement, 10 which is the CSI church license agreement. I will 11 mark my copy and we'll substitute one that doesn't 12 have highlights on it. 13 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 39 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 MR. DANDAR: This is 39 and what is it? 16 MR. WEINBERG: It's the license agreement 17 between CSI and, in this case, Flag. Okay? 18 Dated May 26, 1982, signed by Heber Jentzsch 19 for the Church of Scientology International 20 and I can't read who signed it for Flag. 21 MR. DANDAR: Same running objection, 22 right? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 24 A. Just to clarify, it's Flag Service 25 Organization. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 574 1 Q. Right. I want to, if I could take you 2 through it real quickly, you know that there was a 3 license agreement between the mother church and 4 various other churches, including Flag Service 5 Organization, correct? 6 A. I'm sure there was. 7 Q. Okay. And I want to show you all of the 8 recitations before but I want to specifically refer 9 you to page 11 -- I want to refer you to page 5, 6 10 and 7, which is -- which are the very similar 11 provisions as in the RTC license agreement with 12 CSI, and it has the control and supervision 13 provisions and, in particular, it has -- this is 14 Control and Supervision and it has these two 15 paragraphs that we saw in the last one and this one 16 on page 6. This agreement between CSI and Flag 17 Service Organization says: CSI and RTC shall have 18 the right to monitor all operations of church -- in 19 this case church is Flag -- with respect to the 20 marks, inspect all books, records and facilities 21 pertaining to the use of the marks, et cetera. 22 You understand that that's what the 23 document says but you also understand and saw that 24 between '82 and '89, when you left, that CSI and 25 RTC had the right to monitor the operations of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 575 1 Flag, among other churches, correct? 2 A. I would say power, right. 3 Q. Power, that's even better. Now, and then 4 E says: CSI may, if it ever deems it necessary or 5 advisable, send a corrective mission to church, 6 which in this case is Flag, just so you know 7 that -- church is Flag, right? CSI may, if it ever 8 deems it necessary or advisable, send a corrective 9 mission to church to correct any deviation from the 10 standards, specifications or guidelines of this 11 agreement and church shall reimburse CSI. So that 12 that's what the document says, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that, in fact, was the case, that CSI 15 could send a corrective mission to Flag with regard 16 to any situation regarding the religion, correct? 17 A. Well, with regard to anything that was 18 happening at Flag. 19 Q. Right. Just as RTC could send a 20 corrective mission, correct? 21 A. They could. This seems to be sort of a 22 break point. Could we pause for a moment? 23 Q. Yeah, if you want. 24 A. Is that a good one? 25 Q. Yeah, that's okay. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 576 1 A. I'd like to do one very soon -- 2 Q. Well, I've got -- well, I mean whatever 3 you want. 4 A. Well, you sort of seem to be between 5 documents. 6 Q. That's fine. 7 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. Take a break. 8 (Recess.) 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q. Now, once it was announced that the 11 corporate structure of the religion of Scientology 12 had been reorganized, there was a lot of fanfare, 13 my word, about this change, correct? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Well, I'm talking about within 16 Scientology. 17 A. No. 18 Q. The change itself was embraced by 19 Mr. Hubbard within Scientology, was it not? 20 A. I don't know that. 21 Q. Well, you don't know that Mr. Hubbard 22 issued either policies or reports or writings to 23 Scientology staff and public endorsing the change 24 that gave RTC the powers to protect the purity of 25 the religion and gave CSI the power as the mother SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 577 1 church? 2 A. There was some alluding to it. I just 3 don't know the extent of it. 4 Q. Well, you are the expert on Scientology, 5 right? Right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And one of the things that you have 8 testified about is that your belief in some way 9 that this corporate reorganization was not what it 10 was made out to be, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You've also testified that the words and 13 writings of Mr. Hubbard within Scientology are not 14 to be changed or challenged, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That -- and you've acknowledged, although 17 you quarrel with whether or not when -- whether or 18 not the writings of Mr. Hubbard should be called 19 scripture because you're here against Scientology, 20 you acknowledge that it is the writings of 21 Mr. Hubbard that are the fundamental basis of 22 Scientology, correct? 23 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 24 Q. Is that right? 25 A. I can't respond when you say I'm here to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 578 1 be against Scientology, so I can't respond to the 2 question as put. 3 Q. Okay. Fine. Well, you're not here as our 4 witness, are you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. No, no. And you have certainly, in the 7 last nine years, not embraced your former religion? 8 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 9 Q. Correct? 10 A. I'll go with that as far as embracing, no. 11 Q. Okay. Now, the -- you would acknowledge 12 that it is the writings of Mr. Hubbard that embody 13 the belief system of Scientology? 14 A. I said yesterday I have trouble with 15 belief system but embody the policies which guide 16 the organization, I have no qualms with that. 17 Q. It's not just the policies, it's the 18 technology with regard to the fundamental tenets of 19 Scientology, right? 20 A. How it operates, I'm agreeing policies and 21 the red technologies. I don't -- I don't question 22 that. 23 Q. So that when Mr. Hubbard spoke or wrote, 24 for somebody committed to Scientology, that was a 25 very important statement or writing, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 579 1 A. If it came from him. 2 Q. Correct. That's what I'm saying, if it 3 came from him, is that right? 4 A. Yes, because I also authored stuff by him, 5 so there is that question. If it really came from 6 him, then it would be from him. 7 Q. Or I suppose one could say the same thing 8 about Jack Kennedy. I mean Jack Kennedy and many 9 presidents are pretty busy and they have speech 10 writers, but when they actually utter the speech or 11 give the speech, they embrace what they say, 12 correct? 13 A. That would be correct. 14 Q. So you're not suggesting that there is 15 anything improper about assistance being given to 16 Mr. Hubbard with regard to the preparation of some 17 of the materials that were issued by him, correct? 18 A. Not at all, providing he sees and approves 19 it, then it does become his. 20 Q. All right. Now, you remember Ron's 21 Journal 38? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What is Ron's Journal 38? 24 A. It was one of a -- well, you'd have to set 25 the basis for what Ron's Journals are. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 580 1 Q. Well, what are Ron's Journals? 2 A. They are occasional issues by him on a 3 variety of topics which were different from the 4 technology and the policies, which were more like 5 briefings on subjects, overviews, could take any 6 variety of subjects, maybe end of the year 7 speculation. So they were sort of a freewheeling 8 -- usually a freewheeling subject. 9 Q. And they were written by him or issued by 10 him, is that right? 11 A. Issued by him. I don't know how many were 12 written by him but they were accepted as coming 13 from him. 14 Q. And you accepted them as coming from him? 15 A. Until a certain point. 16 Q. And they were for both staff members and 17 public members, weren't they? 18 A. They were what we call BPI, which was 19 broad public issue, which meant public and staff. 20 Q. Okay. Now, let me -- and what do you 21 remember Ron's Journal Number 38 as? 22 A. That was a wide-ranging one on a variety 23 of topics and RTC was mentioned in that one. I 24 remember because we helped to compile it. 25 Q. You mean the restructuring of -- the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 581 1 creation of RTC? 2 A. No. Helped provide information for Number 3 38. 4 Q. No. I understand that. I said -- when 5 you said RTC was mentioned in that one, you're 6 talking about the establishment and the empowerment 7 of RTC was discussed in Ron's Journal Number 38? 8 A. In some words. I don't remember the exact 9 words but it was an endorsement and recognition of 10 RTC in 38. 11 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 40 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 Q. All right. Well, let me show you as 14 Exhibit 40 Ron's Journal Number 38 issued -- you 15 remember that it was issued on December 31st, 1983, 16 right at the end of the year? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. DANDAR: Can you give me that date 19 again? Do you have another copy? 20 MR. WEINBERG: New Year's Eve of 1983. 21 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Do I have another copy? 23 Yeah, here you go. 24 MR. DANDAR: Thanks. 25 MR. DANDAR: This is Number 40, correct. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 582 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q. You see that quite a bit of the beginning 4 of Ron's Journal Number 38 has to do with RTC, 5 correct? 6 A. On my copy it starts, I think, on page 2. 7 Q. Right. And on the fourth -- really third 8 major paragraph from the bottom it says -- it 9 starts what I will be doing. Do you see that? 10 A. Which page? 11 Q. Page 2, the one you referred to, third 12 paragraph, third big paragraph from the bottom, it 13 starts what I will be doing. 14 A. Oh, that's way up. I'm sorry. I see the 15 paragraph. 16 Q. Okay. And the second sentence of that 17 says: As you may know, a long time ago I made a 18 free gift of all trademarks of Dianetics and 19 Scientology to an independent nonprofit 20 corporation. This was the Religious Technology 21 Center. I no longer own these marks. And RTC 22 controls the licensing and use of all trademarks. 23 And here is how it is keeping Scientology working. 24 Okay, operator, please light up to RTC summary. 25 And then he proceeds to describe what RTC SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 583 1 is doing and what their responsibilities are, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, if you go to page 4, the -- at the 5 top, the second major paragraph where it says a 6 full reorganization -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. This is under International. Not only 9 were the Scientology churches and corporations 10 reorganized in the United States, they were 11 reorganized internationally as well in the early 12 '80s, is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Hubbard here says: A 15 full reorganization of corporate status of all 16 Scientology churches and corporations, and he's 17 speaking internationally now, was successfully 18 concluded a year ago. Correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that was the case, wasn't it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, if you go to page 14 -- are you on 23 14? 24 A. I'm getting there. 25 Q. You remember in this journal, Mr. Hubbard SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 584 1 talked about some of the problems that had arisen 2 in the Guardian's Office and other places that 3 resulted in the reorganization of Scientology, you 4 remember that, don't you? 5 A. I'd have to go back and remind myself, but 6 probably, in its 14 pages. 7 Q. All right. Now, if you look at page 14, 8 the paragraph that begins BUT, it's a big paragraph 9 and BUT is in full caps, do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Correct? And Mr. Hubbard says: BUT, can 12 a power push against the church happen again? 13 Well, only if you fail to turn your back on 14 squirrels. 15 And squirrels are people that are against 16 Scientology, right? 17 A. No, that's not actually the technical 18 definition in that way. 19 Q. Well, it's an apostate? 20 A. No. 21 Q. A person trying to take over, use the tech 22 on their own? 23 A. That can be but that's not -- somebody can 24 be squirreling, turning it into a verb, inside the 25 organization, not be outside the organization. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 585 1 Q. Right. Somebody could, for example, steal 2 the marks and try to start -- and try to use them? 3 A. That would be by their definition an 4 example of a squirrel. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But I just meant there is other 7 definitions. 8 Q. And, in fact, there were problems in the 9 '80s with a group of people that actually stole the 10 marks and then tried to use them, correct? 11 A. I believe that's right. 12 Q. All right. Now, in this paragraph: BUT, 13 can a power push against the church happen again? 14 Well, only if you fail to turn your back on 15 squirrels and demand on-policy actions and HCOB 16 tech -- that's the Red Book, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- in all executives and if you support 19 only those who work to keep Scientology working. 20 My earnest advice is only deal with or associate 21 with those organizations licensed by RTC and the 22 auditors in good standing with the church. 23 Now, it was very clear, was it not, from 24 Ron's Journal Number 38 that he was endorsing the 25 reorganization of Scientology, including the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 586 1 establishment of RTC and CSI? 2 A. The document says what it says. 3 Q. But there was no -- you were there, you 4 were at ASI at the time. There was no dispute 5 within Scientology that Mr. Hubbard, in 1981, 1982, 6 1983, endorsed and endorsed very publicly the 7 reorganization of Scientology? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, if you go -- you know what executive 10 directives are? What are executive directives? 11 A. Those were what we call Blue on White 12 issues. 13 Q. I thought it was Blue on Blue? 14 A. Okay. Issued by Hubbard. 15 Q. Am I right or wrong, is it Blue on Blue or 16 Blue on White? 17 A. You could find them actually coming out 18 both ways. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. That were from Hubbard which gave specific 21 orders, usually as it is -- that's why it was named 22 a directive, on things to be implemented, differing 23 from the journal, which was like a briefing. 24 Q. Do you remember that there were 25 executive -- and these were more for staff members? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 587 1 A. Some LRH EDs, as they were called, would 2 become BPI, broad public issue. Some were meant 3 internally. Most of the other LRH EDs were -- went 4 to public too. 5 Q. And do you remember ED 58? 6 A. Not by number. 7 Q. Did you read the EDs? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You read all the EDs? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And do you remember that there were one or 12 more EDs that were issued following the 13 reorganization of Scientology setting forth and 14 endorsing this change? 15 A. There was something issued. I don't 16 remember specifically what it said. 17 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 41 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 Q. Let me show you what we'll mark as Number 20 41, which is an executive directive dated May 19th, 21 1982, ED 58 WDC, entitled Scientology and Dianetics 22 Services, Use of the Trademarks. I ask you to look 23 at it and identify this as one of the EDs that you 24 read. 25 A. This is not an LRH ED. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 588 1 Q. Now, this is issued by the watch dog 2 committee, right? 3 A. Yes. I just -- I thought you were 4 referring to an LRH ED. 5 Q. This is a -- I mean did you read these EDs 6 as well, the watch dog committee EDs? 7 A. A lot of them. 8 Q. And do you remember this one? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you remember that -- and the watch dog 11 committee, by the way, was a committee in CSI? 12 A. See, that's sort of like the 300-pound 13 gorilla. It was where it was. It was at the 14 management level, the most senior management. 15 Q. May 18th, 1982, it was in CSI, right? 16 A. Fine. 17 Q. Now, this document, this ED also sets 18 forth in some detail the reorganization with regard 19 to the authority and power of RTC and CSI, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Now, you're familiar with the IG 22 network bulletin? 23 A. I've seen them. 24 Q. And what are they? 25 A. Those were, when they were first issued, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 589 1 were meant to be briefings about the inspector 2 general network, which was a section of RTC. 3 Q. Okay. And there were actually signs 4 posted throughout various Scientology churches and 5 organizations around the world advising both public 6 and staff members of the IG and RTC and where to 7 report a whole series of incidents, including what 8 would be referred to as suppressive acts, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And those -- you've seen those 11 bulletins -- what I call bulletins. You've seen in 12 various -- in almost every Scientology publication 13 there will be a -- some sort of an ad or a box that 14 will apprise the reader of the IG network at RTC, 15 correct? 16 A. Over what period of time? 17 Q. Well, you tell me. You're the expert. 18 A. They finally became dominant, as you've 19 described it, but it took a while. It was probably 20 not until maybe '84, '85 that it became more 21 dominant. 22 Q. Certainly by 1995? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, you testified on direct about Flag 25 Order 3079 that was purportedly issued by SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 590 1 Mr. Hubbard immediately before his death in January 2 1986, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, Mr. Hubbard died on January 24th, 5 1986, is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And this Flag Order was supposedly issued 8 five days before his death on January 19th, '86. 9 A. Dated, not issued. 10 Q. Supposedly dated five days before his 11 death, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And this Flag -- what are Flag Orders, by 14 the way? 15 A. They originated back on the ship Apollo. 16 They were orders to the crew. The Apollo was 17 called the Flagship or Flag, so they were a type of 18 order that was issued. 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. And as later on extended to just Sea 21 Organizations and Sea Organizations would get Flag 22 Orders, so it just became wider than just the 23 original Apollo. 24 Q. Now, this Flag Order 30 -- was it 303879? 25 3879, supposedly or on its face designated Pat SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 591 1 Broeker, B-r-o-e-k-e-r, as the first loyal officer, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. It, in essence, created a new Sea Org 5 rank, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then it designated, supposedly, his 8 wife, Mr. Broeker's wife, as like the second loyal 9 officer, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And if it were to be believed, then upon 12 Mr. Hubbard's death Mr. Broeker from that Flag 13 Order would have had the highest rank in the Sea 14 Org as the first loyal officer, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And Mrs. Broeker would have had the second 17 highest rank as the second loyal officer, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, neither Mr. Broeker or Mrs. Broeker 20 had any kind of post in any of the new Scientology 21 organizations, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Now, you then identified in your testimony 24 a April 18th, 1998 Flag Order that canceled 3879, 25 right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 592 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that cancellation Flag Order was 3 issued by David Miscavige as chairman of the board, 4 Religious Technology Center, is that right, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what that cancellation said, in 7 essence, was that Flag Order 3879 that had 8 supposedly designated Mr. and Mrs. Broeker as 9 first -- as loyal officers, was a fraud, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that Mr. Hubbard hadn't actually 12 issued them, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Or written them, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, the fact is, sir, that I then asked 17 you in what was a small effort at getting some what 18 we call voir dire when those documents were 19 presented to you, whether Mr. Hubbard wrote 3879. 20 Do you remember I asked you that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you remember that you hesitated to 23 answer, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then you said I don't know, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 593 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. The fact is that you, back in -- while you 3 were in -- still in the Church of Scientology, you, 4 Mr. Young, believed that Pat Broeker wrote 3879 and 5 not Mr. Hubbard, right? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You believed that, didn't you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Didn't you believe that Mr. Broeker had 10 forged it? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And didn't you conclude that Mr. Hubbard 13 had not written it? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And didn't you believe that it just wasn't 16 Mr. Hubbard's style? 17 A. No. It's very close to his writing style. 18 Q. All right. And the fact is you actually 19 wrote -- by the way, you were a good friend of 20 Mr. Broeker's right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And in fact, you, to this day, and I think 23 you said so on your direct testimony, attribute 24 your ultimate demise in the Church of Scientology 25 to the fact that you had associated yourself with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 594 1 Mr. Broeker, right? 2 A. Not ultimate but -- 3 Q. Close, right? 4 A. Pretty close, yes. 5 Q. All right. And, as it turns out, 6 Mr. Prince had associated himself with Mr. Broeker, 7 right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And he attributes his demise in the Church 10 of Scientology to that, right? 11 A. I don't know that. 12 Q. Well, he hadn't ever told you that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You've never commiserated about that? 15 A. No, we've not discussed that. 16 Q. Now, you, you actually wrote Mr. Broeker a 17 letter telling him that you didn't believe that 18 Mr. Hubbard had written that and that he had 19 written it, right? 20 A. I was -- it was a letter I was ordered to 21 write when I was on the RPF to Mr. Broeker as part 22 of disconnection. 23 Q. I see. That's a technical term, 24 disconnection, right? 25 A. Right. It was -- and it was dated just a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 595 1 few days after the cancellation, so I can even date 2 roughly when I wrote him, was a few days after the 3 cancellation came out. 4 Q. Well, when did you write him? 5 A. It was a point shortly -- soon after that 6 was issued. I remember the issuance of that 7 because Annie Broeker arrived on the RPF and we got 8 a copy of the cancellation on the same day and -- 9 or maybe I -- somewhere in there, and then I was 10 also to write him and disconnect. 11 Q. All right. And so your recollection is, 12 and your sworn testimony is, is that this letter -- 13 do you have a copy of this letter that you wrote 14 him? 15 A. No. 16 Q. This letter that you wrote Mr. Broeker 17 telling him that you didn't believe that 18 Mr. Hubbard had made him the first loyal officer, 19 you say that was done almost simultaneously with 20 Mr. Miscavige's cancellation of Flag Order 3879, 21 right? 22 A. I wouldn't stand by it. I just -- I 23 remember it because, you know, I was on the RPF and 24 there was a stress there and I know I had to 25 disconnect at some point and I remember her SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 596 1 arriving -- I remember the issue arriving and it 2 was a shock to all of us because the original issue 3 had been so wide promulgated, and I remember Annie 4 arriving, because I knew her very well. So I don't 5 remember the sequences. I know definitely that she 6 arrived and the issue arrived on the very same day, 7 I know that for sure. When exactly along that 8 period with me and Mr. Broeker while I was on the 9 RPF, I don't remember the date exactly. 10 Q. Well, it certainly wouldn't have been 11 three months later, it would have been right around 12 the time it was issued, right? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Well, that's your recollection? 15 A. The best I can recall. 16 Q. Somebody stood there with a gun to your 17 head? 18 A. No, but it was -- 19 Q. Well, no, I'm asking you, did somebody 20 stand there with a gun to your head? 21 A. Not literally, no. 22 Q. Okay. The -- you had long before decided 23 that you were going to leave Scientology, hadn't 24 you? 25 A. Before when? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 597 1 Q. Before you wrote this letter that you say 2 you wrote to Mr. Broeker telling him that it was a 3 fraud? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Now, who, by the way, made you write this 6 letter? 7 A. I don't recall. We had a program to do. 8 You're given a program, a series of steps and mine 9 came in that I had to, at one point, disconnect 10 from Broeker, and the best -- and per policy, the 11 best way to do that was to write a letter. I don't 12 remember if it was the -- what we called the MAA, 13 the master at arms. 14 Q. I'm just asking you a name. Who was the 15 one that told you to do this? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. So, basically, what you're saying is that 18 you wrote a letter regarding Scientology lines that 19 was a lie? 20 A. Scientology lines? 21 Q. Well, you wrote a letter, yeah, with 22 regard to Scientology lines of authority, right? 23 A. Oh, lines of authority. Okay. 24 Q. You wrote a -- I mean just so it's clear 25 here, it's your testimony that you wrote a letter SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 598 1 with regard to Scientology lines of authority that 2 you now say under oath is a lie? 3 A. No, just that I was forced to do. 4 Q. No, but -- well, do you agree with what 5 you said in the letter? 6 A. What was I -- what part was I saying in 7 the letter that you're referring to? 8 Q. Well, didn't you tell Mr. Broeker in the 9 letter that you believed that he wrote Flag Order 10 3879 and not Mr. Hubbard? 11 A. I probably did. 12 Q. And was that true, is that what you 13 believed? 14 A. You have to believe that in order to move 15 on -- 16 Q. No. I'm asking you what you believed, is 17 that what you believed? 18 A. I had to believe it, sir. This is -- I 19 had -- the only way I can respond. To get off the 20 RPF, I had to believe it, so I had to make it part 21 of my belief. At that point, I incorporated and I 22 make it, as they say, make it your own. 23 Q. As you sit here today, was what you wrote 24 in that letter true or false? 25 A. No, it wasn't true. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 599 1 Q. So you believed that Mr. Hubbard issued or 2 wrote Flag Order 3879? 3 A. I don't -- to this day I don't know. All 4 I know is what I was being told I had to believe at 5 that time. 6 Q. Do you believe today that Mr. Broeker did 7 it? 8 A. I don't really know. 9 Q. Whatever you did back in whenever it was 10 with regard to this letter that you wrote, it was 11 done in your own self-interest, you would agree 12 with that, right? 13 A. Self-survival. 14 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 42 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. Now, let's mark a copy of 42 and ask you 17 if this is the memo or letter that you wrote in 18 your own hand to Mr. Broeker. Is it, sir? 19 A. Looks like it. Can I reread it? 20 Q. Sure. Is that your handwriting? 21 A. Yes, this is my handwriting. 22 Q. No one wrote this out for you, did they? 23 A. No. I don't understand why I wrote copy 24 on it. Maybe I -- if I had to rewrite it or if 25 I -- I guess -- SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 600 1 Q. I assume you sent the original to Pat 2 Broeker, right? 3 A. Well, no, I had to give it to somebody 4 else who was going to deliver it. 5 Q. Everything on that page is written by you, 6 isn't it? 7 A. It's my handwriting. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. It even says that I don't personally know 10 if it actually happened that way. 11 Q. Well, in your own handwriting you did say, 12 and I quote: And while -- this is to Pat Broeker, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And while I cannot personally prove it 16 right now, I suspect the last piece -- and you're 17 talking about Flag Order 3879, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- I suspect the last piece, where you and 20 Annie became LOs -- that means loyal officers, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- was written by you. I thought so when 24 it first came out, never told anyone. I thought so 25 because - remember - I know LRH's style too. It SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 601 1 missed. It does not sound right. 2 Now, you wrote that, right? 3 A. Yes. Could I just ask a question for 4 clarification, because we're talking about the date 5 of this versus the FO. 6 Q. Well, you know, you've just -- were you 7 going to ask me when the FO was canceling it? 8 A. Just to be reminded, yeah. 9 Q. All right. Let's have that back. 10 A. The date of the cancellation. 11 Q. The fact of the matter is, as shown by 12 Plaintiff's Exhibit 9, the cancellation order 13 issued by the chairman of the board, Religious 14 Technology Center, David Miscavige, was April 18th, 15 1988, some three months before this letter that you 16 wrote, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So that it didn't just come in one day and 19 you wrote this letter, as you had first recalled, 20 did it? 21 A. No, this had to be done later. 22 Q. Now, you, in your testimony, you said -- 23 in your direct testimony, you said that you based 24 your current knowledge -- well, strike that. 25 You have not interviewed in any systematic SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 602 1 way since you left Scientology either staff members 2 or members of the public with regard to their 3 beliefs of Scientology, have you? 4 A. When you say public, you mean public 5 Scientologists? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. The answer is no. 8 Q. Right. And you haven't gone out and done 9 a survey of current staff members or a survey of 10 current public members of Scientology to try to 11 draw some conclusion as to the sincerity of their 12 beliefs or anything like that, have you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And you agree that you have not done any 15 Scientology training or auditing since you left, 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you have not been in any kind of 19 formal way Churches of Scientology since you left? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And that you -- and to the extent that you 22 have any current knowledge as to what 23 Scientologists -- how the various Churches of 24 Scientology run policy-wise -- I mean from a 25 corporate perspective or what Scientologists think SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 603 1 or believe is largely based on your review of 2 magazines? 3 A. That -- there is some compound in there. 4 If you can, break it up for me. 5 Q. Okay. You said in your testimony that, 6 essentially, the only thing that you have done 7 since 1989, whenever it was that you left 8 Scientology, to keep current on Scientology is to 9 read magazines, right? 10 A. And -- magazines and policies, you know. 11 Q. But I'm talking about the way in which the 12 various Churches of Scientology operate since you 13 have left. Essentially, all you have done to 14 remain current, that is something -- things that 15 have occurred since 1989 is to read magazines, 16 right? 17 A. No, that's not true, and it's evident by 18 other testimony, how I've read policies and I've 19 submitted declarations citing policies and I've 20 gone through those current volumes and more than 21 magazines, certainly. That's been shown by my 22 other testimonies and actions. 23 Q. And to the extent that you have -- but, 24 primarily, I think you said, that you were relying 25 on magazines to keep current, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 604 1 A. We were talking about the Sea Organization 2 and certain aspects and certain activities in which 3 I said you could learn that from the magazines, but 4 there is other ways to -- other things that I read. 5 Q. Now, the Free Winds or the High Winds 6 magazine, which you testified about, right? 7 A. Those are two different magazines. 8 Q. The High Winds I'm talking about, the High 9 Winds magazine, that's the magazine with regard to 10 the Sea Organization? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. That is written -- the articles in that 13 magazine are written by whom? 14 A. By Sea Org members. 15 Q. Church members, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Not by L. Ron Hubbard? 18 A. He doesn't write directly. His articles 19 appear but he doesn't write for it. 20 Q. Obviously he doesn't write for it now, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. He hasn't written for it certainly since 24 he died, right? 25 A. That's correct. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 605 1 Q. But the magazine, from time to time, will 2 republish earlier writings or works of Mr. Hubbard, 3 right? 4 A. I didn't catch the verb but it's an always 5 will reprint something by him. 6 Q. Okay. The writings of church members in 7 the High Winds magazine are certainly not 8 fundamental Scientology technology that would be 9 considered by Scientologists as scripture, is it? 10 A. Not in the same category as policies and 11 HCOBs, no. 12 Q. Magazines don't set or establish policy of 13 the church, do they? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Now -- 16 THE WITNESS: Could I just take a prostate 17 break? 18 MR. MOXON: Did you say apostate break? 19 THE WITNESS: Prostate, you know, as in 20 get your prostate checked. 21 (Recess.) 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q. Now, you testified in direct that policy 24 of Mr. Hubbard was never supposed to be changed, 25 right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 606 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you made sort of a big deal about that 3 with regard to a couple of documents that you were 4 comparing, correct? 5 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 6 Q. Do you remember? 7 A. Well, yes. 8 Q. All right. Now, you are familiar with the 9 Green Volumes, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what are the names of the Green 12 Volumes? 13 A. Well, it's the organization course. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Organization Executive Course Volumes and 16 it's just -- 17 Q. It sets forth the policy of the way in 18 which the Church of Scientology is run, right? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Well, what does it set forth? 21 A. The volumes are compilations and bindings, 22 you know, as in just a series of short stories that 23 have appeared elsewhere. It's just bound volumes. 24 The volume does not do it. The individual policy 25 as issued is what stands, not a recompilation. A SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 607 1 recompilation is just a recompilation. 2 Q. Yeah, but the Red Volumes discuss the 3 technology of Scientology, right? 4 A. They are compilations of the bulletins. 5 Q. Just listen to me for a second. Okay? 6 The Red Volumes have -- is a collection of writings 7 that have to do with the fundamental technology of 8 Scientology, right? 9 A. That's what their intention is, yes. 10 Q. What Scientologists would say, you know, 11 is the ecclesiastical part, the religious part of 12 Scientology, right? 13 A. That's what they are supposed to be, yes. 14 Q. Okay. And the Green Volumes are a 15 compilation of writings with regard to the policy, 16 sort of the administrative policy of how 17 Scientology organizations run or are to be run, 18 right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, you -- you're not an expert and don't 21 profess to be on either -- on the policy, are you? 22 A. Which policies? I could be. 23 Q. Well, I'm talking about -- look, we've 24 established that you're not an expert on the 25 technology, on the Red Volumes, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 608 1 A. I can testify to it. When the point you 2 cite, I said there is people who are more expert 3 than I am. 4 Q. And you're not here today proffering 5 yourself as an expert on the Green Volumes either, 6 are you? 7 A. They're part of the body of Scientology, I 8 can testify about them. I don't know how to break 9 it down for you. 10 Q. So then, if that's the case, you must be 11 familiar with the HCO policy letter of March 1965, 12 Technical and Policy Distributions, you are 13 familiar with that, right? 14 A. I remember reading that one. 15 Q. All right. And what does that one -- do 16 you remember what that one has to do with changing 17 policy? 18 A. I would have to look at it to remind 19 myself. 20 Q. Well, do you remember that Mr. Hubbard, in 21 this policy letter, said and wrote -- and what he 22 said and wrote is the gospel of Scientology, right? 23 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 24 Q. Is that right? 25 A. If that is what he said or wrote. That's SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 609 1 the point that's at contention. 2 Q. Okay. Well, you're not contending that 3 something that is dated in 1965 that appears in the 4 Green Volumes is not something that was adopted by 5 Mr. Hubbard, are you? 6 A. I'm saying things that have been 7 republished have been changed from what Mr. Hubbard 8 wrote, and if it's -- that we have to compare it to 9 the originals. 10 Q. All right. So are you -- do you remember, 11 do you know what blue pencil policy is? 12 A. Blue pencil is where you change policy 13 with a blue pencil, if that's what you're referring 14 to. 15 Q. And do you remember that Mr. Hubbard had a 16 policy about blue pencil? 17 A. He issued revisions of policy. I'm 18 familiar with that. 19 Q. And do you know that -- do you remember 20 that Mr. Hubbard has a policy that says that when 21 rereleasing an old policy letter, always blue 22 pencil out everything gone old and contradicted by 23 later policy letters, you can still salvage a lot 24 that still applies, a surprising amount, but try to 25 cut out the contradictions with our modern policy SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 610 1 where they exist, do you remember that he said 2 that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the reason for that, of course, is is 5 that a policy that was issued in 1960 about the way 6 in which a car should be parked in the Saint 7 Hill -- at Saint Hill, might not be applicable in 8 1999 because the car doesn't exist and maybe the 9 building doesn't exist and the lot doesn't exist 10 anymore, right? 11 A. Quite the contrary. In fact, he issued 12 policies stating specifically in keeping 13 Scientology working, never state policy is old and 14 not used anymore. 15 Q. All right. So you disagree with the -- 16 well, but anything that Hubbard writes is not to be 17 changed though, right? 18 A. This -- see, this is the big debatable 19 point on this thing when people were issuing the 20 changes without his knowledge or authority. 21 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 43 was marked for 22 identification.) 23 Q. Well -- so, let me just mark here as the 24 next exhibit Exhibit 43, and this is a -- it's a 25 copy of the technical and policy distribution SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 611 1 policy that I referred to, and -- 2 MR. DANDAR: What was the date? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it was first issued 4 in 1965 and revised on July 7th, 1983. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Hubbard was alive in July of 6 1983, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And I'll refer you to page -- 9 MR. DANDAR: But what copyright volume 10 does it come out of? 11 MR. WEINBERG: I have no idea. I'll give 12 you a copy of it. 13 Q. I'll refer you to the third page from the 14 end which has the blue pencil policy. 15 MR. DANDAR: Do you have an extra one? 16 Thank you. This is 43? Copyrighted 1991? 17 MR. WEINBERG: No. 18 MR. DANDAR: That's what your second page 19 says. 20 MR. WEINBERG: You know, Ken, the policy 21 was -- was revised as of July 7th, 1983. 22 MR. DANDAR: It comes out of the '91 23 books that were copyrighted in '91. 24 MR. WEINBERG: And the point you're 25 trying to make is what? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 612 1 MR. DANDAR: I just want you to say that 2 that's why you have page two here, correct, to 3 show us what version this is, what the 4 publication date is. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Not version. This is when 6 this particular volume -- Mr. Young said it 7 was a compilation of volumes. The thing 8 you're reading was revised on July 7th, 1983. 9 MR. DANDAR: As published in 1991. 10 MR. WEINBERG: As compiled, as Mr. Young 11 made it very clear, in the Green Volumes. 12 MR. DANDAR: Right. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Whenever. 14 MR. DANDAR: As compiled, right. What 15 page are you referring him to? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Third from the end. 17 A. Third what? 18 Q. Third page from the end. 19 MR. DANDAR: Page 1296? 20 Q. Here, can I just refer you? Yeah, mine 21 doesn't have pages on it is the reason I didn't 22 have it. Right here. 23 A. 1296 on mine. 24 Q. Page 1296. Do you see the paragraph that 25 starts when rereleasing? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 613 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You remember that policy, right? 3 A. I remember this policy but I'm not going 4 to certainly verify that this is an actual accurate 5 rendition of the original policy. 6 Q. Yeah, but you are an expert supposedly in 7 Scientology and you will not acknowledge that 8 Mr. Hubbard, dating back in 1965, had a policy that 9 provided for and required blue pencilling out the 10 old in order to be modern? 11 A. I don't deny that. I just question 12 whether or not this is an accurate one since we 13 were in the business of changing policy without 14 people knowing about it. 15 Q. And the reason you question it is because 16 you have spent the last nine years of your life as 17 an apostate trying to profit off of that, right? 18 MR. DANDAR: Objection. 19 Q. Isn't that right? 20 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative. 21 Q. Isn't that right? 22 MR. WEINBERG: You've made your objection. 23 Q. Isn't that right? 24 A. I gave you documents showing how these 25 have been changed without staff knowing about it. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 614 1 Q. Now -- 2 A. There is an easy way. Just all we have to 3 do is find the original policy. 4 Q. Fine. Now, we're not exactly talking 5 about something particularly controversial here, 6 whether or not -- whether or not Mr. Hubbard 7 authorized the blue pencilling of old policy. That 8 ain't exactly -- that is not exactly a 9 controversial thing, is it? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. All right, fine. Now, Mr. Young, based on 12 your assertions supposedly as an expert that 13 nothing can ever change, can you tell me the role 14 of the chairman of the board of directors of HASI, 15 H-A-S-I, today as described in HCO policy letter of 16 December 18th, 1964, found on page 57 of the OEC 17 Volume 7, can you tell me that what that is? 18 A. I never so testified that way. 19 Q. I'm just asking you what is the role of 20 the chairman of the board of directors of HASI 21 today? 22 A. If you want to give me a spot quiz on the 23 page, I don't know what the answer to the spot quiz 24 on the page number is, I'll attest to that. 25 Q. You know the answer to that. HASI doesn't SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 615 1 exist today. 2 A. You asked me for a page number on it, 3 specific things -- 4 Q. Does HASI exist today? 5 A. Can I finish my answer? 6 Q. Does -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. 8 A. Read back the question. You asked me for 9 an answer -- 10 Q. No, I did not. 11 A. Yes, you did. 12 Q. No. What I asked you was -- 13 A. Read it back. 14 Q. -- and I'll tell you exactly, based on 15 your assertions that nothing can ever change, can 16 you tell me the role of the chairman of the board 17 of directors of HASI today? 18 A. I never so testified that nothing can 19 change. I gave you something that they said LRH 20 policy should change. 21 Q. The truth of the matter is there was a 22 policy order whenever, but you know dating back 23 along -- well, you said you knew the policy, right? 24 A. Sir, would you please stop yelling at me? 25 Q. I'm not yelling at you. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 616 1 A. You are too. 2 Q. No, you're yelling at me. 3 A. And the audio would show it. 4 MR. DANDAR: Stop. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Young -- 6 A. Your question was prefaced with based 7 upon something that I did not testify to and I'm 8 trying to be exact. 9 Q. No, what I'm doing -- no. Yeah, like you 10 were being exact in your deposition out in 11 California, is that right? 12 A. I want to take a break. 13 MR. DANDAR: Don't respond to that. 14 A. I really want to take a break. 15 Q. You just took a break. 16 A. I don't need to sit here and just be 17 insulted. 18 Q. You're not being insulted. 19 A. Yes, you are. 20 Q. No, I'm not. 21 A. If you want to just ask me a question -- 22 Q. And I did ask you a question. 23 A. And I responded. To the preface of your 24 question I cannot respond. I never so testified. 25 Q. And I didn't say you did. What you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 617 1 testified to -- 2 A. You did. You repeated the question. 3 Q. No. What you testified -- no, I asked you 4 a question. What you testified to -- what you 5 testified to was policy never changes and what I'm 6 asking you is -- 7 A. No, I did not. I did not. I gave you the 8 integrity of source issue that they said policy 9 cannot be changed. 10 Q. Was there a policy with regard to the 11 function of the chairman of the board of HASI? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And since that policy was issued, there is 14 no longer HASI, right? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. So that policy, even though it was issued 17 and even though it may well appear still in the 18 Green Books, it doesn't apply to anything today, 19 right? 20 A. That is correct. It works much easier 21 when we do it this way. 22 Q. And there are lots of policies like that, 23 aren't there? 24 A. There are many policies. In fact, that's 25 what the OE -- Organizational Executive Course is. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 618 1 You study policies to learn things that don't even 2 apply anymore. You learn the history of it. 3 Q. Right. And in rereleasing old policy 4 letters that still have some current application, 5 Mr. Hubbard provided for pencilling out that which 6 was no longer applicable, correct, sir? 7 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 8 A. He gave -- 9 Q. Is that right? 10 A. He gave that authority to people to make 11 those changes, yes. 12 Q. Would you agree that ethics technology is 13 an important part of the religion? 14 A. I would agree that ethics technology is an 15 important part of the L. Ron Hubbard technology. 16 Q. So the problem you have is calling 17 Scientology a religion, is that the problem with 18 that answer? 19 A. That you always try to get me to use the 20 word when I don't really agree to the word. 21 Q. Okay. A great deal of emphasis has been 22 placed on ethical behavior and ethical codes in 23 Scientology, is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Just like a great deal of emphasis has SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 619 1 been placed on ethics in other religions, including 2 Catholicism, correct? 3 A. If you want to make that comparison, or 4 within the military service, however. 5 Q. Well, I mean it is very important in a 6 religious institution that the people that are part 7 of that institution be ethical, correct? 8 A. Whether it be government, military or any 9 other thing, or a private business, I'll agree. 10 Q. Ecclesiastical? 11 A. You want me to agree to the 12 ecclesiastical. I can't agree to that. I can 13 agree to ethics -- 14 Q. I was talking about other -- I was talking 15 about other churches? 16 A. I said -- 17 Q. You would agree that the Baptist is a 18 church, the Baptist church is a church? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You would agree that the Catholic church 21 is a church? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You would agree that the Unitarians are a 24 church? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 620 1 Q. Congregationalists are a church? 2 A. As long as they call them that, I suppose 3 they are that. 4 Q. You know what, you would agree that the 5 Mormons are a religion? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You would agree that the Christian 8 Scientists are a religion? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You would agree that Buddhism is a 11 religion, people that follow Buddhism are following 12 a religion? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Hinduism? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Muslims? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Fundamentalist Christians? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Presbyterians, yes? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is there any, other than Scientology, that 23 doesn't make your list right now? 24 A. Well, you sometimes hear of cults, you 25 know, where they end up killing themselves, where SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 621 1 the guys covered themselves up with purple and I 2 don't know -- wanted to jump on a comet. I have 3 difficulty with things like that. 4 Q. So what were there, like 20 people in that 5 organization? 6 A. I really don't know how many. Or the ones 7 that wanted to put the Sarin gas into the Japanese 8 subway system, I don't know if that's part of a 9 serious religion. 10 Q. All right. Well, can you think of any 11 other organization -- any other new religion in the 12 twentieth century -- the twentieth century that you 13 would not call a religion other than your former 14 religion Scientology? 15 A. I just named you one. I just named you 16 two instances. I could also -- see the question 17 is -- 18 Q. Excuse me. Excuse me for one second. 19 Now -- 20 MR. DANDAR: You interrupted him. You 21 interrupted him. Can you let him answer your 22 question? 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, I asked him and he 24 apparently wasn't able to answer. 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes, he was. Are you going SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 622 1 to withdraw your question? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Let me -- yeah, I withdraw 3 that question. 4 Q. Let me do this. Now, you're not 5 suggesting that anyone has suggested that the Hale 6 comet people was a recognized religion. There were 7 20 people in the room. You're not suggesting that 8 anybody has suggested that, are you? 9 A. You asked me my -- 10 Q. No, I'm asking you. Did I read that 11 somewhere? 12 A. Read what? 13 Q. That anybody had suggested that that was a 14 religious body? 15 A. Yeah, I read that. 16 Q. Fine. And so you would reject them as a 17 religion then? 18 A. No, no. See, here's the problem. You get 19 into religion versus a sect. And at that point, 20 it's a fragment or section of, say, the 21 Protestants, you know, there is various sects and 22 denominations and you get all these breakdowns and 23 people use the term as they want. 24 Okay. The boys jumping on the comet 25 weren't a religion, you know. They were a group, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 623 1 they were -- call them what you want. Some people 2 ended up calling them a cult. The point was it 3 wasn't a religion like Catholicism is a religion, 4 like Mormonism is a religion. So -- 5 Q. Well, people called in the Great Schism 6 centuries ago, they called that a sect, right? 7 There was a break in the Christian church, correct? 8 A. In the Catholic church. 9 Q. Catholic church I mean. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. But that's really not my point. In 12 the twentieth century there have been a number of 13 new religions, correct? 14 A. New religions and new sects. 15 Q. I mean, for example, the Christian 16 Scientists, although they may date back to the late 17 1800s, but basically, it's a twentieth century 18 religion, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. But you recognize them as a 21 religion? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You have read their works? 24 A. I've read some. 25 Q. Well, who, by the way, in the Christian SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 624 1 Science religion, I mean whose teachings do they 2 ascribe to? 3 A. Mary Baker Eddy. 4 Q. A person, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. A person that lived in the twentieth 7 century, right? 8 A. I don't know the exact span of her life 9 but that's okay. 10 Q. They don't believe that you should seek 11 medical treatment for medical conditions, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. They believe that you should deal with 14 medical conditions spiritually, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Scientologists don't believe, people that 17 ascribe to Scientology, that you should seek 18 psychiatric treatment for mental conditions but 19 that you should deal with that what they would call 20 spiritually, correct? 21 A. Some do, some don't. It's not a standard 22 belief within Scientology. 23 Q. All right. But you accept the fact that 24 Christian Scientists can genuinely believe that if 25 you've got cancer, you shouldn't go to a doctor and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 625 1 should seek spiritual healing but that 2 Scientologists can't genuinely believe that you 3 should deal spiritually with your mental problems? 4 A. I didn't say that. 5 Q. All right. You would accept that both 6 can, correct? 7 A. No. I didn't say that either. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to change the 9 tape? Just change it. 10 (Recess.) 11 PLEASE REFER to Volume V for further Trial 12 Testimony. 13 NOTE: The original and one copy of the 14 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by 15 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar. 16 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing 17 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled 18 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm 19 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, 20 Suite 201, Tampa, Florida. 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97-01235 626 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 Volume IV 3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the 4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on 5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the 6 following corrections, if any, should be made in 7 the transcript: 8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Subject to the above corrections, if any, 19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing 20 Trial Testimony. 21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this 22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___. 23 24 ________________________________ 25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 627 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 COUNTY OF POLK 5 6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby 7 certify that the witness named herein personally 8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn. 9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10 12th day of February, 2000. 11 12 13 14 ________________________________ 15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR 16 Notary Public - State of Florida 17 My Commission Expires: 10-23?03 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000 628 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA 3 COUNTY OF POLK 4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter 6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared 8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial 9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did 10 stenographically and electronically report the 11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the 12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript 13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic 14 notes and recordings thereof. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an 16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause, 17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party 18 connected with this litigation, nor am I 19 financially interested in the outcome of this 20 action. 21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at 22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida. 23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10-23-03 25 Transcript ordered: 2-10-00 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688-5000