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Transcript of Part Two

Lawrence: We staggered on with this awful schedule with this. I was being kind of audited, sort of brainwashed. By then, I dropped the stories about psychiatry. I realized it was evil, you know? And then one day, Leslie was getting more and more tired and exhausted with the schedule and she turned around and said, "I've had it with this Organization. I'm exhausted. I'm going nowhere. I'm feeling worse and worse." And I'm, like, "Leslie? You mean (inaudible). You were on the Apollo! You're, like, running the Organization and this is the only hope for mankind? Scientology technology is the only hope for mankind and you want to leave?" Like, "Where is that at?" And she said, "I just can't go on. I'm exhausted." And she said, "I have to get the hell out of there." So, I said, "Fine by me. Let's go." (interviewer laughs) So anyway, they were just mad at us as all hell. They were, like, they…I had what's called a Committee of Evidence where I had to confess crimes I committed…

Stacy: A Committee of Evidence is Scientology's version of a trial.

Lawrence: Like a trial. Right. And that was done at Saint Hill. And then the findings were…

Stacy: What did they accuse you of?

Lawrence: They said that, you know, I had hidden away these letters to L. Ron Hubbard. I had stashed them away. I had destroyed them. They said that I, you know, hadn't, in fact, gone around spotting out-policy, out-Ron Hubbard policy. I had like, you know, under my nose knew that flagrant out-policy situations exist. It was like a kangaroo court, you know? And, I mean, in reality, I had done the best I could and I hadn't even had thoughts about leaving until Leslie said let's get out of there. Then, I was like, "Oh well, I did have…I had thoughts that psychiatry was good. It might help people." (makes gasping sound) "Oh my God!" (interviewer laughs) "You are evil!" So anyway, and the committee found me guilty of all these crimes. And you know, I was banned from ever being a staff member in the LRH Communicator Network again. I was, like, ordered to do, like, I think 500 hours of amends. You know, but in actual fact, I had completed my contract. So, you know, there was no financial penalty or anything like that. But anyway, we were free. And so, then we bought a house. You know, I became a partner in an architectural practice in London. This…we left in, like, I would say 1978. So we had a house in London. You know, I just had a regular 9 to 5 job. We started…we had…we had already had a daughter, Astra, who by then…oh, she was born about then. And then we had another daughter, Zoe a few years later. And Leslie had a stepson, Matthew, who was 3 when we got married so he was, by then, like 5 or 6. So, to all intents and purposes, we were just a normal married couple in London with a job. And life was wonderful. You know, I just…it was easy to work 9 to 5. It was just like a whole weight was lifted, you know? You know, just little things like a walk in the park. It was just…it was like finishing a jail sentence. You know, like, life, that freedom. Life was just wonderful, you know? And I just forgot all about Scientology life. It was, like, gone. I had no interest whatsoever.

Stacy: I bet your family was happy.

Lawrence: Yeah. And…but Leslie, you know, remained…she would, like, volunteer staff and she never dropped that connection. She would volunteer and we got hooked up with a guy called Peter Warren who I then found had…he had been like a Lieutenant in the Sea Org and he had been, like, held prisoner. But then he came to London and he was interested in starting up, you know, doing seminars in Scientology. Why, after what he had gone through, I had…I just couldn't fathom it, you know? But he was, like, a nice guy and so we met with him. And he wanted to do Scientology seminars and Leslie volunteered work for him. And I was thinking, "Oh my God. We're getting sucked in again bit by bit." And so, but they, mostly we were free until about 1986. So, we were free for, like, a full eight years of bliss, you know? Life was great! And then Leslie's father died and left her, like, a pretty large chunk of money and she imMediately said, you know, "I want to go take this money. Go to their Organization in Clearwater, Florida and do some auditing." And I'm, like, "Are you nuts?" you know?

Stacy: Let me just stop you for a minute and ask you -- were you surprised when she suddenly let you know that she was that interested in Scientology? I mean, had she not talked to you about it before?

Lawrence: Well, what she explained to me, which, you know, she really wouldn't tell me much at all because it was, fell within the realm of confidentiality and she couldn't tell me about the upper levels. But what she said to me was that on the Apollo, back with L. Ron Hubbard, he had written what were called the L Rundowns. And they were like highly confidential, only delivered in Clearwater and, like, very, very powerful. Very, you know, up…kind of very high level stuff. And she had been used on the research, you know. And whereas I think, at Flag now, in Clearwater, you do, like L-10, L-11, L-12. She had had something called L-9, which was, like, highly experimental. And this had left her messed up. So she was told she had to go to Flag to have this corrected because it was, like, it was making her sick. And this was why she had become exhausted in London. The fact that she had had these experimental ones, needed to be corrected. So, she had take this money her father had left her and go do it. But she would be back within a few weeks and she would be better than ever.

Stacy: But what I'm wondering is, you had these eight years of happiness…

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: And from what you're saying, it sounds like you were unaware of how strong a connection she continued to maintain with Scientology.

Lawrence1: Right. I would say so. Yeah, I had missed…I had thought she was sick of it and out of it.

Stacy: Do you think she was not telling you because she…

Lawrence: Right. She…

Stacy: …was aware that you weren't as interested or something?

Lawrence: Right. She deemed me to be, like, disaffected. In other words, that's a Scientology word for meaning someone who has, like, tried Scientology…

Stacy: Not totally with the program here?

Lawrence: Not with the program, exactly. So, she was a little bit, kind of cautious about what she would say. You know, I mean, I wasn't…I knew enough to not be outright critical. But, at the same time, I really had no interest. You know, I wanted…I was interested in architecture, my career. You know, that absorbed me. Not…So, I think she was very cautious about what she would say to me even at that stage.

Stacy: So when you say I knew enough not to be critical, you mean, you knew better than to say to her anything that was critical about Scientology?

Lawrence: Right. Because I knew that…in Scientology, if you talk critical of Scientology, that means your criticism is never valid. That…it means that your criticism is caused by bad things that you've done. In other words, you know, I would do bad things to Scientology and then that would make me critical of them. And that's the only reason I would be critical of them. If I said, you know, "Well, I disagree with Hubbard on this, this and this" and think he was off the rails, that wouldn't be…it was impossible that I had a genuine problem.

Stacy: What would happen?

Lawrence: It would be that…well, either you've misunderstood a word and that you have to go back and find it and clear it and then miraculously, the criticism will stop. Or, you've done a bad thing, you know, to Scientology. You've harmed them in some way, or…

Stacy: So, you couldn't honestly tell your wife…

Lawrence: No.

Stacy: …how you felt about Scientology?

Lawrence: No. No way. No way. Because I knew that I would be banging my head against a wall. So then when she said that she wanted to back. She wanted to go to Clearwater to clean up this thing that was kind of giving her problems, making her sick, but that she would come back within a few weeks and she'll be much better, you know? I went along with it. Little did I know what was about to transpire.

Stacy: So then what happened?

Lawrence: So, the next thing will be a phone call from Leslie. And, literally, she was in like, a state of euphoria, you know. Like, "Oh my Goodness." You know, "You just wouldn't believe how wonderful…how mind-blown I am." You know, "I've had my sessions and…I can't even begin to tell you how wonderful it is! And you've go to come here. You've got to see this! It is just…" And I'm going, "Oh my God," you know? And then she said, "It is so wonderful," you know "I can't think of doing anything else in my life than helping Scientology." And she said, "In fact, I want…" at this point she said, "I want to join what's called the Sea Organization and work for them." And she…and I said, "Well, you know…" And she said, "I want to come to Clearwater and work for them." And I'm going, "Well, Leslie, you know, we live in London. We've got three kids. We're married. We've got a business. What are you talking about?" I said that, you know, we can talk about going to Saint Hill, their organization in Sussex and work there but how can we leave a house, a job," you know, "a business?" And she said, "Well," she said, "This is the wonderful thing! They want you to come here and be their architect!" She said, "Let me put you on the phone to the director of personnel." So, anyway, I'm…someone comes on the phone and says, "Hello, Mr. Woodcraft. This is the director of personnel from the Flag Land Base. Congratulations, Mr. Woodcraft! We have reviewed your qualifications and we have been actively looking for an architect for months because we're going to design a whole, huge building here for delivering Scientology to the public. It's going to be like several hundred thousand square feet. It's a multi million dollar project. We're ready to start design work. And Mr. Woodcraft, you have been selected to be the architect. And, you know, even when this building is finished, there will be other projects. We're going to be building hotels in Clearwater. We're going to be buying property. We're going to be renovating it. We're going to be building new buildings. We are entering a period of unprecedented expansion. You have been selected to be our architect because you are uniquely qualified by the…we have examined the projects you've done in England. And so this is a wonderful opportunity for you." And they even said, you know, "We have other architects here we have been considering but they do not have the experience you've had." You know, 'cause I designed a hotel in England. They said, "They don't have the experience you have. You are uniquely qualified." So, I said, "Wow!" This is like I'm getting a job interview over the phone and I've got this great job! I can't believe it! You know, and I'm going to be running the show. And I said, "Well, you know, we've got a house in London, you know, my kids are in school here." You know, and they said, "Don't worry. Don't you worry about a thing," you know, "You're coming here as an architect. You'll have a brand new luxury apartment overlooking the ocean," you know. "Your kids will go to a private Scientology school, you know. You will have a car to drive around in. You know, you will get a bonus-every other week, you'll get a day off. You'll get a bonus." You know, "you'll probably get a $1,000.00 a week bonus to live on." You know, "Life is going to be great for you, Mr. Woodcraft." And I go, "Wow! I can't believe this!" You know, I've been-this is such an honor!" And I'm going "But, you know, I've got to give up my whole life in England." "Oh!" I said, "But wait a minute, you know, I don't have an architectural license to be in the United States in Florida. I don't-I'm not licensed to practice in America, you know? I'm only licensed to be in England." And they said, "Oh." Big pause. "Don't you worry about that. Why don't you do some research on that and find out what it would take?" So, the next day, I make a long distance call to Florida and I find out, you know, that there is an agreement whereby, you know, I can come to Florida, get all my transcripts from college in England. They will look them over but, you know, I find out that, you know…because Florida has hurricanes, you know, I would have to specially study hurricanes in, you know…structural codes in Florida and probably take, like an oral exam. So I was on the phone researching this and so I called them up and I say, "Well, you know, this is great because…you know…you'll have to let me attend a college here or something…" and you know. But…this is back to the director of personnel at Flag. "You will have to let me attend college here and, you know, and I will have to take exams here and have an oral exam. I have to bring all my transcripts. And you know…but it can be done. Isn't that great? I can get my license to practice in Florida as an architect. Otherwise, you know, I can't-I'm useless." You know, and the director of personnel is, "Yeah. Whatever. Okay. Whatever it takes." No interest really but, you know, "We can fix it. Don't worry. Whatever it is, we can fix it."

Stacy: So, now you think that you're actually going to be moving to Florida to get a prestigious job.

Lawrence: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: …with a real organization.

Lawrence: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And that I'm going to be their architect, you know, like, like in England. Big corporations would have, like, this is the company architect. The…

Stacy: Did it ever occur to you that an organization that had a place like you had been at in London might not be aware of what you were really talking about?

Lawrence: Well, I had already seen that the organization in San Francisco was huge and it was explained to me. "Oh, you English," kind of, you know, "You English people are kind of like your own eccentric little country." And you know, Scientology has never gotten big there because, you know, even though it was fairly big at Saint Hill. But, like, the English kind of resisted to Scientology, you know. And they don't think big. But, in America, Scientology is huge! You know, it's…there are millions of people here. Practically the whole of Los Angeles is based on Scientology. They own, like, a whole complex in Los Angeles. And the…in Clearwater, it's huge. People come there from Italy. From, like, from France, from Germany, from Australia, from Switzerland and all over the United States. And it's just, you know, forget what you've seen in England. It's, like, tiny. But in Clearwater, it's massive. It's organized and the staff…they told me…the staff drive around in BMWs and corvettes. They make unlimited money. So, just don't think small. Don't think like an English guy. You know, it's huge. But I'm saying, "Well, you know, okay. If you've got all these millions of Scientologists, you must have architects over here in America who are qualified." You know, "You must be able to hand pick anyone you want. Why me?" You know, and they're going, "Well, we have architects here but, you know, they haven't designed hotels and they…" you know, "we have checked your…your wife has told us the sort of projects you've worked on and we think you're qualified." You know, "And we'd like…" you know… Anyway, I was so flattered that I didn't really go into it too much, you know. Gullible is the word, I guess you might say.

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