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Transcript of Part Three

Interviewer: You became much more interested in Scientology than your husband and this concerned other members of your family, too, that you were going a little deep into this, didn't you?

Barbara: Oh, yeah. I mean, I had friends from the States calling my sisters that live in Europe telling them that they were concerned about me and I had gone off the deep end and what was I doing. And my family members were upset at home and keeping me kind of upset, writing me letters and things, which is a good thing to do if anyone in your family is in a cult, especially Scientology. Keep them upset because they can't go on with their auditing, you know? They're going to get fed up eventually. (laughs) So, every time someone said something, I have to go to the ethics officer and read, like, all these reports about people that say bad things about other people and their religion. And then, I'd have to write a report on it. And it just took me way off what I was trying to do, which is continue with the courses. So, it was a good thing because it stopped and it caused, at one point, such a big interruption that I just said forget it. They wanted you to convert…everyone in your family has to believe what you believe. If they don't believe it, you have just, like, disconnect from them. I'm from a close knit Italian family. It's really hard for me to want to disconnect with my family. But I was getting pushed into that. And I was getting pushed to separate from my husband. I mean, I think they figured out that I was a soft touch and he wasn't. He, you know, he just got so fed up giving them money. Their whole idea is…at the time of need is the time that you pay, not at the time of taking the service. When you need it, you have to pay for it. And it just got to be, like, a joke among the doctors in our group. We're, like, "Oh, no. They're calling this poor guy in. He must need something. Or if he has a problem, he should shut up," because if he says he has a problem, it's going to cost him, like five or ten grand, you know? So, the family helped by keeping me upset enough to where I stopped and they took me off auditing. They said, "Oh, you can't go back. You have to take more courses." But I think…the truth of it was that I had given them a big chunk of money and they didn't want to mess with me. They were just going to let me sit and spin so they put me in the classroom with these baby courses, you know? Taking a teddy bear and rubbing its tummy. I don't know what the heck I was doing anymore (laughs). Stupid stuff like that. I thought, "Oh my God!"

Interviewer: What is this? You were rubbing a…

Barbara: Yeah. You have to do, like, some kind of things on a teddy bear or something. I don't know. I don't even…

Interviewer: Do you remember what that was all about?

Barbara: I probably want to just forget it. (laughs) But it's in the course, I think, How to be a Scientologist. Maybe, it's like an assist, where someone gets hurt. You know, whatever…

Interviewer: Were you ever able to successfully assist somebody with a problem?

Barbara: No. No.

Interviewer: Did you ever try?

Barbara: Yeah. Yeah. But, no.

Interviewer: And you were never able to leave your body at will and exteriorize?

Barbara: You know, I wanted to believe that I did but I think during, like, an auditing session, I think maybe I just fell asleep or something. Really, I wanted to go, "Oh, yeah. I was out there in the universe." But, you know, some of my friends say I was always out there in the universe, (laughs) so whatever! I wanted it to really work, you know? I mean, it was costing me a lot! I wanted it to work and it wasn't working! My life was just more and more ugly and unhappy! You know, I've been married almost 29 years now and the first year I didn't have New Year's with my husband was when I was involved in the Church. And we were supposed to be divorcing. I went in to Louie Cologne and I said, "You know, Bill and I just still butting heads about the office. We're butting heads! I don't know what to do! You've got to call him in and talk to him and straighten him out." And he said, "Well, how many times do you think you've lived?" And, of course, they tell you you've lived, like, millions of times. And he said, "Well, do you think you've had a lot of husbands?" I said, "Oh, yeah. Probably." He goes, "Well, then? Get rid of him. Well, then?" You know, "divorce him." Like that, you know? Because if they could get Bill out of the way, then they could get access to my money-the checkbook-very easily. I was just kind of like zombied out by then. You don't get any sleep. You don't interact with any of your family. You work like a dog, you know, to keep your statistics up because you're feeding the Marcus Group your statistics, okay? So, they know everything you're doing in your business. And they know when you have a good month, that's when they hit you up for a lot of stuff. That's how it works. And by you going to their classroom, they were always in contact and communication with you. So, when they see you, they say, "How's it going?" "Well, it's okay but, you know, Bill kind of snapped at me." And then, "Okay. Let's give you the marriage this or that course or let's give you this course or how to tell when someone's an SP, a suppressive person. Take that course," you know? So, it's $6,000. Let's sign you up today, today! And Bill would say, (yelling) "I'm not paying! I've got a credit of $20,000. What? Do you think I'm stupid?" And I'd go, "Bill, please…we don't want to get them mad." I don't know at what point they got me. Believe me, I just wanted to be really perfect.

Interviewer: But you remember the moment when you decided to get out?

Barbara: There were several things. Several things. Okay. One was the fact that they had gotten a big chunk of my money, okay? And it took like everything I had to put this money together. And when the money was coming in, everyone started calling my office. They knew money was coming. All the different agencies of Scientology. They're like a bunch of vultures fighting over you just to get a piece of it. Each one wants you to commit to their cause. They don't care! They don't work together! They each want their chunk! Why? Because then their statistics look good and they get a bonus. It's not about the person or what's good for them. It's, like, where can we get the money to meet our statistics? That's all they want to do!

Interviewer: Do you remember the different Scientology agencies that were calling you?
Barbara: The IAS, Flag and then, of course, the Church in Chicago. Each one wanted their own piece, you know, of money. And there just wasn't enough to go to everybody for what they wanted. And I gave a chunk to the IAS and I know she promised me, she said, "Don't worry," you know, "if you give me this money, I'm not going to deposit it right away." And last time she said that, it went right away. You know, she didn't hold it for a day like she promised. Well, the same thing happened this time. You know? And stuff like that irritated me. Here, you think it would irritate me they're taking $12,000 or whatever. No! (laughs) So, there were different agencies all wanting the money. And then each one got angry that I didn't give it to them, you know? Here, I thought a church was a church. I didn't realize that they were all, like, separate banking entities, you know? And all cared about themselves but not the overall Church, you know? It just didn't make sense. I didn't understand how it all worked.

Interviewer: How would they get angry? What would they say to you?

Barbara: Well, the one lady from Flag, who always when I walked in, she would be all over me, like, (imitating accent) "Oh Barbara! You're so wonderful! Your husband is so evil! I don't know how you do it! You're such a big being! You're fantastic!" Well, the next time, you know, after I put money in another area of the Church, she wouldn't even look at me! And I thought, "What's up with her?" You know, what's with her? And so, the next time I went in, I said, "You know, you just totally ignored me and I don't appreciate it." She said, "Oh! I just didn't see you! I was busy." Those people have eyes behind their heads, okay? If there's a dollar or a coin, they sniff it out! I'm not kidding! They know who's walking! They grab them by the ankles and they don't let them go until they leave! (laughs) It's the truth! They do! They're just so persistent-God! So, she wouldn't talk to me and it just irritated me. And then the other one got mad because I said, "Well, why was this one mad at me?" And then they all got mad at me. And I was very upset by it because I thought, number one, I had done a good thing. They kept telling me, "Well," you know, "the whole Christmas staff…if you pay your bridge, your chunk of money, they can have a Christmas bonus. They can have a Christmas salary. We're counting on you to do it by Christmas. It's all up to you!" And each staff member would come up and say, "Oh, will you buy a book from me? Because if you buy a book from me, then I get," you know, "money for my kids for presents for Christmas." You know, and of course, I was a sap. I would say, "Oh, oh, oh. Okay." Meanwhile, my kids were all alone because I was, like, you know, taking auditing. So that was the one thing that disillusioned me. I felt that I had given all this money…As soon as you give them money, you have no control. And they have your money. Then, they go, "Well, it's a donation!" You know, and then, hey, you know, I didn't know you could give it to different churches. So, I wouldn't ever give it to a loser church like the one in Chicago. If I was really going to do it, I would give it to a church that was well organized. Not, you know, not like these guys. But anyway, I didn't know that then. The Scientologists that worked for me in my office. They educated me. They said, you know, "This Church isn't that good. You want to go to that Church." They were telling me where to go to get more bang for your buck, you know?

Interviewer: Which was the good Church and the bad Church?

Barbara: The one in California was pretty good. We'd have to fly to California. The one in Chicago didn't have, you know, a lot of potential or higher level things. So, here you have all this money for higher level things and they don't have the people to train you! Okay, that's if you look at as a school. But the other thing that upset me was I heard the lady from Flag talking to a guy that I liked. He was a nice guy, just a friendly guy. And he had been in Scientology. He paid for his bridge when he was in the Marines. He bought his bridge in California. And I heard her talking to him saying, "Well, can you get a hold of your mother's IRA?" You know, "Is there a chance you can dip into that? Because we really need this money. You need to put this on your bridge." And I talked to her, and I said, "Gee, Sandy," I said, "Jose is really trying to," you know, "move up the bridge. That's good." And she says, "Oh, he's just a loser. He'll never get anywhere. He's not a big being like you. You're really a big being. You'll go far. You need to do all the L's," you know, in Florida, "because if you do that, there's nothing you can't do, you know? Nothing!" I had a friend once tell me that when they talked to him, and he was a professor at one of the best colleges, dental colleges in Chicago. They told him that he could even walk in front of a bus and nothing would happen-he's so powerful. You know, they really pump your ego and make you think, like, you're a god! Anyway, when I heard her talk that way about this friend of mine, I thought, "You know, how cheap is it?" Here, she doesn't think he's going to do well and she's doing everything to get his mother's IRA." I don't understand that dual standard, you know? It just upset me! And then I was hearing about other dentists that were getting out of it and they were trying to lure them back in. And I thought, "Why are these people so upset with it?" You know, they tell you that the reason you leave is you can't face something. Or there's something bad inside of you. But the truth of the matter is when you open your eyes and really face what they're doing, you run! You run like hell! But it took me a few years to come out of it. I mean, I was very depressed for the first year. Because they replace everything that you usually do. I mean, I'm a shopper. I didn't even like to shop anymore. Do you know how that is…Women…we like to shop! I didn't even want to shop. I didn't care about anything. I didn't care about going to Europe and I love Europe…visiting my family there. They just kind of replace everything. It was almost like there was no joy left for me. So, that was it and separating from my husband and tearing apart my family.

Interviewer: How long were you separated?

Barbara: We never lived separately. We lived separately within the house. We never lived in separate houses. But I'd say it went on for about four months. And the office manager I had was really separating us. He really didn't want Bill and I back together because if I stayed away from Bill and we weren't together, you know, divide and conquer, you might say.

Interviewer: How would he try to manipulate this?

Barbara: He would always say, "Well, I hope you're not going to go back with him. I hope you're not going back. You need separate checking accounts. You need your own money. You want to separate everything. He's just a loser, you know? He's not doing what he's supposed to be doing." You know, which means he didn't fall for their jargon and the whole thing. The funny thing about this kid is that he came out of the Sea Org because he had a lot of tax debt. He came out to pay the tax debt and then he was going back in because he thought it was so cool, right? Well, he starts working for us and the first month or two really booms the practice. He worked for us as the office manager. But, while he was doing that, he kept saying how the Marcus Group were just stealing our money. He said, "They take your money and then they don't give you a product. You don't get good staff. You don't get good training. It's just kind of a scam." He says, "You know, they don't really teach you that much and they take all this money." So he was always upset with them. But then, when he started improving our statistics, they would have him…we paid for him to go to the seminar but they would have him lecture at the seminar, right? And then, they offered him a job with their company. In the meantime, he decides to hook up with their daughter, who works for the Marcus Group as well, okay? But there's this big decision. He would tell me, "Well, they don't want her to marry someone going in the Sea Org because that's not a good life." So, if he decided to not go in the Sea Org then he could marry Amy. Otherwise, they couldn't get married. So, this was his big decision. Now, if the Sea Org is like this elite Church group, why wouldn't someone want their kid going in it if it's so great? Must not be that great. But they kind of didn't like it. They didn't want him to go. And the funny thing is, after they offered him money to work for them, his whole attitude towards them changed. You know, he thought they were great…they're a good group. So he boomed our statistics for, like, two months, maybe three. And then they crashed. He quit doing his job. He was on the phone the whole time to California on my time, finding out if, you know, they were going to allow him to not have to pay $100,000 for his past training and they could drop it down to $40,000. So he mortgaged his mother's house to finance getting out of the Sea Org. It's comical.

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