Part One x Part Two

Transcript of Part Two

Astra: At one point, I was standing outside waiting for a ride back to where I was going to stay and a staff member from the Religious Technology Center, which is, like, the very highest organization in Scientology--and these people, like, you're terrified of, everyone is. You have to call them sir. You can't do anything. If you, like, someone once tripped one of them or something and was…

Stacy: You mean by accident?

Astra: …by accident. Totally by accident or bumped into them. And he was, like, put on hard labor for, for accidentally tripping him. This is, like, how scary these people are. He comes up to me and he says, "What are you doing, Astra?" And I said, "Well, sir, I'm pregnant and I'm leaving." And he said, "Are you getting a confessional?" And I said, "Yes." And I was, of course, not saying it like this. I was, "Yes, sir," you know. And he said, oh, no…actually, let me rephrase that. He said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I'm pregnant so I'm leaving." And he says, "Oh! Too late for an abortion?" And I said, "No…"

Astra: Unbelievable.

Astra: So, then he said, "Are you getting a confessional?" And I said, "Yes."

Astra: Who was that?

Astra: You know, I wish I could remember his name (laugh). He used to, he had a little sports car and he used to drive it round. And the license plate said, "Standard Tech" abbreviated on it. And he was very high up. Very well known but I forget his name. If someone told it to me, I would be able to say yeah, that's his name. You know, he was scary. (laugh)

Astra: Yeah.

Astra: He used to, like, scream at people -- get in their face, spit on them, things like that. So, I saw him do that, you know, grab people. And so I was terrified of him. That he said, "Oh! Too late for an abortion." It was just, like, I couldn't believe he even said that.

Astra: Incredible.

Astra: So, then I, I continued getting my confessional. I finished that. I had to read some policies and I had to write what's called Knowledge Reports on people who I had thought had done bad things. And then I had to sign an affidavit. I knew I was going to have to sign that. That's another thing they have you do before you leave. And they write down all the bad things you've said you've done and then they make you write up all the wins you've had in Scientology, which you, of course, have to make sound great. 'Cause if you don't, you're back for more confessionals and you're not leaving till you sound like you love Scientology and you're leaving 'cause you did bad things. So, I wasn't about…

Astra: Wow.

Astra …to disagree with anything they said. I, I wrote up, "In Scientology," you know, "I've learned to communicate. When I came into the Sea Org," you know, "I was very out-ethics and they really helped me and if it wasn't for them, I don't know where I would have ended up." I just made it sound…I just…I knew what I had to say and I said it. And I also knew that whatever I signed was not legal because they said, "You can't leave unless you sign this. If you sign it, you're going to be declared a Suppressive Person and your family will never see you again…"

Astra: If you don't sign it.

Astra: "If you don't sign it. So you better sign it before you leave. You have to. You have no choice." That's not legal 'cause that's duress. So I kind of had an idea of that.

Astra: Yeah.

Astra: So, I thought, I'm just going to sign it. I'm just…and I wasn't planning on speaking out or anything. I still thought I want to be a Scientologist, etc.

Astra: Even after all of this, you still wanted to be a Scientologist?

Astra: 'Cause you're so indoctrinated into the fact that it's your fault. Whatever happens, if you don't want to be there, it's your fault. You've done something out-ethics. You're a bad person. You're irresponsible, you know, you can't confront things. I believed that.

Astra: Mm-hmm.

Astra: But, I also just physically and mentally couldn't take it anymore so I was leaving thinking I was horrible person.

Astra: You just weren't good enough to be in the Sea Org.

Astra: Yeah.

Astra: Yes.

Astra: I wasn't good enough. I couldn't make it. I didn't have what it takes.

Astra: Yeah.

Astra: Yeah. So, I…signed it and then I left and they searched through my car and through my room to make sure I wasn't taking anything that belonged to them or that was…any documents or anything like that. They had, when I was there, put together my bill and given it to me. They give you a bill for…here's an example: I did, like, a computer course on how to learn to operate their computers. I did a course on how to do my job. They had to restructure their management and I did several courses on, you know, they had written a bunch of new policies on their new management…I had done that. And then I had gotten sec checks--confessionals--hours and hours and hours and hours of them. I had gotten them before 'cause if you go on the high posts in, like, certain areas, you have to get one before you go in so they can make sure you're qualified. I had done all of this. I had done, you know, just two or three things that were actual, like, Scientology spiritual things. I did the Purification Rundown and a couple courses. The reason I'm saying that is the policy about freeloaders was written because, apparently, people used to go into the Sea Org just so they could get free service and then leave. 'Cause you don't have to pay for it if you're on staff most of the time. So, they wrote this policy that if you leave, you have to pay them back for everything. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous but I hadn't even done Scientology. I had just done, like, training.

Astra: Yeah.

Astra: So, they give me my bill. It's $89,000.00 (interviewer laughs). And even I was in shock. I was, like, I've only been here for four and a half years and I owe $89,000.00. But, I thought, "Oh, I'm going to have to figure out how to pay." And I started…I was so scared that I'm going to have to pay this, I started working out a budget before I left. "Okay, I'm going to work full-time. I'll make $400.00 a week. I'll send them $100.00 every week. In ten years, I'll have it paid off…"

Astra: (laughs) Oh, gosh.

Astra: "Hopefully, before then, I'll get a better paying job." And I was writing it all down and trying to figure out how much stuff for the baby would cost so I could still send them like a quarter or half of my money and…my mom had said to my dad, "Do you know what Astra's freeloader bill is?" And he said, "No." And she said, "It's $89,000.00 but it's not your problem. She's going to have to pay it." (laugh) So, that's my mom's point of view. So, then after I left, that was basically it except they called me several times 'cause they wanted me to come in for Media on various investigations they were doing. And I didn't want to come in. I was done. But I got more threats so I had to. And I was asked about, "When you did this job three years ago, did you say this to somebody?" "Did you tell people they could take a vacation without first getting a confessional?" Things like that. So I had to go back in several times for that. And then that was about it except I got called and sent mail regularly about my freeloader bill. They were asking me, "Get your dad to help you pay it." You know, "Don't you have some money somewhere?" "Doesn't your dad have some money?" "Can't you take a loan out?" To pay this money to them. I once sent them $20.00 just to say that I had sent something 'cause my mom was, like, "Just start sending money. Just start and, and soon, you'll be able to pay it off." That was all I ever sent…$20.00 or $25.00. When I was eight months pregnant, my husband…when I had left…I had also told him, "It's all my fault. I'm totally responsible. I feel really bad for what I've done to you. So, you don't have to pay me anything. You don't have to pay child support. I don't expect you…I want you to be able to stay in the Sea Org," you know. But he had said, "I want to be there when she is born. I want to see her," etcetera. And I was, you know, at the time, fine with that. You know, I wasn't going to keep him from seeing her. But when I was eight months pregnant, I all of a sudden got a letter from him. And he said, "I've been thinking about it…" and I knew he had been told he had to do this. And "I've decided that being in the Sea Org is the most important thing." I have this letter with the exact words but, something like, "Being in the Sea Org is the most important and so I've decided not to see Kate and not to see you…" and you know, "just be in the Sea Org and that's it and I hope you understand my decision." And I thought, he could have at least called me, you know, he could have at least had the guts to call me up. So, then I thought, fine…you know, I'll just leave it. So, I had Kate and…but his parents…I let them come see her 'cause they were nice and I wasn't going to stop them. I don't, you know, want to stop her family from seeing her. And they're her family. So, they came every two weeks about and came to see her…came to visit for, like, a morning…

Astra: How did you feel about your baby?

Astra: Oh, my God. (interviewer laughs) I was so happy. I was so happy 'cause, in my pregnancy, other than the morning sickness went really well. And when I had her, it went really well. And I was just really, really happy. I was just, like, amazed. I couldn't believe…I couldn't believe I had been able to leave and I had my baby and, you know, I had done it. I was just, like, oh my God. I was so happy! I didn't care that I was doing it by myself. I didn't care about anything. I was just, like, you know, I've done (laughs)…I was just so amazed that I had been able to do what I wanted to finally. That I had, like, pushed it all the way through and, you know, not gone back and relented, not had an abortion. And then she was, like, sitting there and I just couldn't believe it. It was amazing. So, then my mom…I called my mom and she was like, "Oh, I'm proud of you." And she was nice about it, of course, 'cause she's not going to be, you know, on the phone when I've just had a baby…she's not going to be, like, hostile. Jason, my ex-husband's parents were coming to see her. Then, when she was about six months old…I had been working full-time while I was pregnant up to the day I had her, I was working. And then I started working again within a week afterwards. But then, of course, it was not as many hours. I wasn't working full-time. I started not having any money, you know, to even be able to pay for things to her…to help pay for food or anything. And it got to the point of being ridiculous and I felt I was draining money away from my father. So, then I started thinking…and at this point, I had changed my mind about Scientology. I had come to realize what it really was.

Astra: And how had that happened?

Astra: Mainly, you know, it was my dad and I going back and forth because neither of us thought it was really bad. He wanted me to leave the Sea Org. He felt the Sea Org was really bad. But…going back and forth, swapping stories and me telling him more and more. And, as I told him more and more about what had happened, I realized more and more how bad this was, you know? As I told him, "I wasn't allowed to make phone calls to you. I was told I couldn't see you. When I used to come and see you, it was in secret."

Astra: And he hadn't known this, of course.

Astra: He hadn't known that. "When I told you I was going to school, I wasn't." Like, as I'm saying these things, I was coming to realize. And as we talked back and forth, that's what so been the very best thing. If you have someone to talk about it with who then says back to you…this…you know, doesn't say, you know, don't talk about it. And doesn't say, "Well, that's all your fault."

Astra: Right.

Astra: You will come to realize that it's not your fault and you have someone backing you up, you know. And it just was…like a…it just came about like that. I started realizing more and more and both of us got to the point where we were like, "Oh my God!" You know? So, that's really how it came about and then I read a book, "L. Ron Hubbard - Messiah or Madman?"

Astra: By Bent Corydon.

Astra: Yeah. I just kind of flipped through it. I didn't read the whole thing but I read parts of it and that was it. You know, I had had enough at that point but I wasn't going to say anything. 'Cause I still wanted my relationship with my mother and my grandmother and my brother. But anyway, so I had gotten to the point where I really felt that I needed to get Jason to pay child support and I no longer felt… "It's all my fault. I've done wrong. So I'm going to handle it." I felt like, hey, (laugh) you need to…not necessarily him but Scientology in general. So he should either get a job, you know…or they should, as part of his pay, pay him some money that he could pay his child support 'cause you get paid $45.00 a week there. So, I wrote him a letter. I said, "You know, I've been thinking about it and I really do need child support. You are her father. You are responsible." No answer. No reply. I wrote another a couple months later. No reply. I started calling. Finally, when she was about a year old, I had arranged a meeting. They said, "Come in. Don't bring the baby. But come in and you'll speak to the lawyer at OSA (?) and you'll speak to Jason. We'll get something worked out." 'Cause he had said, "I'll pay you a quarter of my pay every week." It's like, $7.00 or what is that, like, probably like $10.00 or $12.00 a week. And I said, "You know, that's money, like for you to buy shampoo. I'm not going to take away, you know, your shampoo money." It's ridiculous. I knew how it was to get $45.00 a week when you got paid and that's horrible. And I'm not a horrible person. I wasn't going to take away the few dollars he had. That's not what I wanted and it wouldn't help me anyway. You know, $40.00 a month is just nothing. So I went in there and I took her with me. I never went anywhere without her at that point, really. And I wasn't about to leave her just 'cause they said, "Don't bring her." Like, "don't let him see her…it might…you know, upset him or something." So, I brought her with me anyway. They had…

Astra: 'Cause he had never seen her.

Astra: He had never, ever seen her. He had seen her picture because his parents showed him a picture 'cause I had given them pictures. At six months, when I had first written a letter about child support. All of a sudden, his parents disappeared. Never heard from them.

Astra: Really?

Astra: Never heard from them again. And I realized after a period of time that that was why. And I asked Jason when I saw him…I said, "Your parents, I haven't heard from them in six months. Why is this? Do you know?" And he said, "Yes, I got upset. You know, I was mad you asked me for child support. I told them not to see you anymore." And I was, like, wow. He only admitted it to me at that point 'cause he was trying to get on my good side. So, he was trying to be honest with me trying to get on my good side so I would stop asking for child support. So, I get there and they have Helena Cobrin who is a lawyer in OSA.

Astra: I know her very well.

Astra: Yeah. And she said, "Oh, I'm just here to help explain to you so you understand, you know, the laws and I've dealt with cases like this before. So you understand. So, I said, "Okay." And she says…she's, like, well, Scientology isn't obligated to pay anything and I said, "I know that. I just said Jason's obligated to pay and he works here. So, he either has to get a job or you know, you guys pay…pay him to pay me. Pay him more money so that he can pay me child support." I said, "I don't think…I'm not asking Scientology to pay. I'm not saying Scientology is obligated to pay me one penny. He is obligated." So she said, "Well, I've dealt with cases like this before. And if it went before a judge, a judge would say he has the right to work wherever he wants. He's in a religious organization so he doesn't have to pay." And I said…'cause…see when we got divorced, I put I want full custody, legal and physical. And he didn't contest the divorce so basically that's what the divorce said. And it said visitation to be determined by me and child support to be determined by a judge. And since I wasn't originally going to ask him for it, I never went and got, like, a hearing to determine it. So, I said, "Well, I'll just go get a hearing and have the judge determine how much Jason should pay so that Jason knows what he's legally obligated to pay." They didn't want that, of course. And I said, "Look, from what I've studied, the judge always makes the decision based on the best interest of the child, not the parents." They don't care, you know, about the parent. They care about the child.

Astra: You were feeling much stronger by now.
Astra: I was mad. I wasn't going to listen. (interviewer laughs) I knew they were just lying to me. I knew it. And the judge is going to say…the child's…I need to determine the child's best interest and you go get a job. And child support is based on what the parent can make not what they do make. So, if they choose to work at a job where they make $45.00, that doesn't mean they only have to pay out of that money. That means they need to go get a proper job. If they choose to only work one day a week, they can't say, "Well, I'm only going to pay child support out of my one day a week pay." No, they have to go get a proper job if they can. He has a college education. He could go get a job at least paying minimum wage…obviously paying…you know, a lot more than that. So I said, "Look, this is what I know. This is what the judge is going to say. You know, no one knows for sure what a judge is going to say, but this is what I guarantee…in my opinion…the judge is going to say." And they said, "No, no, no, no, no." And I said, "Okay. Here's is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go speak to a lawyer. I'm going to ask him what he says. If he says what I say, then I'm just going to go get a hearing. I'm not suing." 'Cause if I sued, I get declared. I still didn't want to get declared. I said, "I'm not suing. I'm just going to go get this hearing so that Jason knows what he's obligated to pay." So they said, "Fine." So, I spoke to a lawyer and he said exactly what I said. He said, "I can't guarantee what a judge is going to say but yeah, I definitely think you're right. The judge is going to determine the best interest of your daughter." So then I called them back and I said, "This is what the lawyer said," and I spoke to someone at OSA. And I said, "This is what the lawyer said, so I'm going to go get this hearing." And he started yelling at me, threatening me, saying, "What are you trying to do? Are you trying to get in trouble? What are you really trying to do here? Really what are your intentions?" Things like that. I said, "It's exactly what I said. I am simply going to go get this hearing. So then they started saying, "Oh, well…in exchange, instead of paying child support, we're going to help you financially. We're going to help you study policies from L. Ron Hubbard on finances so you can get your finances in order. (interviewer laughs) And learn how to make more money. And I said, "I don't think so. The only thing I need to do is finish my education which I completely missed and then continue it. And it's going to be a long process. It's going to take several years and in the future, I will make a lot more money. And then maybe… then at that point when I have enough money to support her all by myself, I will stop asking you for child support. I am only asking you now because I have to. I have no choice. I'm, like, desperate." And, they're like, no, we'll help you. We'll help you sort it all out." I said, "That's not what I need. I'm already sorted out. I'm already getting my high school education finished and I'm going to start college." So, that didn't go over well. And then, so then Jason started saying to me, "Oh, I want to see Kate. I want to build a relationship with her." And I knew…see, I was never going to stop him or his parents, I wasn't. 'Cause I didn't feel it was my place to say they can't see you…they can't see her. So, but I knew that he was just saying this to get on my good side so I would stop asking for child support. And that's wrong. And I also knew that it was going to change. That a month later, he'd say, "Oh, I can't see her anymore." Because he was being told he couldn't see her. Now, he's being told to see her. So, so I said…

Astra: And how did you know that this wasn't just Jason changing his mind? How did you know he was being ordered?

Astra: Well, I knew him for one. I had been married to him for, like, four and a half years. And I knew from my old job of exactly what's done. It would have been my job to tell him, "Do this. Now do this." And I also knew the post changed a lot and different people come in with different opinions. And because this was a relatively new thing of people leaving and having a baby, it wasn't sorted out and they didn't really know what they were doing. So, opinions were being thrown back and forth. And actually, I knew even more because I asked him. I said, "Why did you write to me and tell me you couldn't see her? Were you told to do that?" And he said, "Yes." You know, he said, "I was shown these policies and I was, you know…and then I decided…you know, with some help that it was the best thing." And same thing with telling his parents not to see her anymore. So, he told me he was told that but I knew already, you know. So, then I said, "Okay. I'll think about it." 'Cause he was now saying he wanted a relationship with her. And I thought about it and I thought, "Okay. Well, I'm not going to say no. But I'm going to test him." 'Cause I personally don't think…I had read if your child has a parent that's going to be there some of the time but it's not set in stone, they're not going to see them once a week or, you know, even once every two weeks, if it's just going to be they're kind of there and they're kind of not and they show up once in a while, it's better that they're not there at all. Because that's so hard on a child for…it's so unstablizing for them to be in and out of their lives. And I thought, "I can't have this for her." So, I said to him, I said, "How about this? If I drop the child support thing…if I just don't ask you for it anymore, you don't have to see her if you don't want to." And he said, "Okay." So, then it was obvious right there that that's all it was. He didn't actually want to build a relationship with her even though he had already seen her twice. So, I thought that's the very best thing for her. It's so much more important that she just grows up normal, doesn't have any, you know, Scientology in her life at all. That's so much more important than child support. I'll just have to make due.

Astra: So, you dropped the child support?

Astra: I just dropped it, you know? I just said, "Fine. Forget it." You know, I had to do what's very best for her. So, I just started working harder, you know…and stuff like that. So, yeah, so at that point, that was about it. His mom called me before I had told him, "Okay, you can drop it." His mom called me and said, "Jason said we can see Kate again." And I said, "Well, why did you need his permission?" And she couldn't answer that. And then I said, "Okay. You can see her. All you need you to do is just…" and I was really nice to her. I said, "I understand, you know…" we weren't mad at each other. We weren't yelling…it wasn't…'cause I was always…we were always friends. She's a very nice lady. And I really felt bad for her. I really felt bad because she was so torn. Because she's in Scientology but didn't agree with what Jason was doing, wanted to see Kate and I knew she was really torn. But in the end, I can't think about that. I've got to think about Kate. And that's what I said when I went in there. I said, "I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm not here to make a problem. But I'm the only one in this room who cares about her well being. I'm the only one for her. She can't speak for herself. I have to have a one track mind. I have to go…I have to be the one who is only thinking about her and not thinking about other people and, you know, their problems and things like that." So, when I was talking to his mother, I said, "You can see her. That's fine. You can see her again. I just need you to do one thing. I need you to promise that if Jason asks you not to see her again, you won't agree to it again. You've already, you know, stepped out of her life once. She's older now. She'll remember you. I cannot have you do that." And she said, "I don't think Jason will ask me to do that." And I said, "But if he does, you know, it's likely he could. If he does ask you that, will you promise not to do that?" And she couldn't promise. She said, "I can't promise because, you know, what if you get declared?" She said, "I don't think that's going to happen but what if it did? You know, then I'd have to stop seeing her." So, I said, "Well, when you can promise that you won't step out of her life just 'cause someone says you have to, you know, then you can see her." And then I just didn't hear from her.

Astra: Have you ever heard from her again?

Astra: She sent me a card, like, a week later saying, you know, why haven't we heard from you? But she knew why. That's how we ended the conversation, "If you can just promise that, then you can see her." And, yeah, I never heard from her.

Astra: Never again?

Astra: Never heard from her again. Never again.

Astra: Well, Kate sure is…

Astra: Not even a card for her birthday, you know, nothing. Not even Christmas. Nothing. So, that was the end of that.

Astra: Well, Kate sure is a lucky little girl.

Astra: Yeah.

Astra: She's beautiful.

Astra: Thank you. So, yeah, but I think, you know, she's…we live with my dad. So, she has Zoe to play with and she has my dad as, like, a father figure until she gets another one. So, you know, I don't think she's…you know…if it was just me in, like, an apartment by myself--that would be really horrible. You know, that would be horrible for her.

Part One xPart Two

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