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Transcript of Part Three

Astra: The Sea Org doesn't want them to leave until they've gotten them to confess to all their crimes, searched all their belongings to make sure they're not taking anything and sign an affidavit saying they'll never sue the Church. They'll never speak badly out against the Church and that everything they did was wrong and everything the Church did was wonderful. And, by that time, they have hoped to convinced them to stay anyway. But if they had to leave, they want all of that done first. So, there was a couple who twice left and then came back. They left without permission and they came back. So they were considered a very high security risk. My job was…

Stacy: Now who were they? Do you remember?

Astra: Shawn Breneckie (sp?) and his wife. I forget her name. So they had left twice, just they had gone to, like, to his parents house, like, 30 minutes away. But now they were considered a high security risk even though they came right back. It was my responsibility to make sure they didn't do it again or that anybody else didn't do it. I had to have them under 24 hour security watch.

Stacy: What does that mean?

Astra: That means 24 hours a day, someone is with them making sure they don't go anywhere.

Stacy: And who did you use to watch them?

Astra: No one was allowed to do it because it's very strict in Scientology that if it's not your job, you don't do it in the Sea Org. There's, like, policies on only do your own job. That was nobody's job. There was no job to do that.

Stacy: Right…so?

Astra: But it fell under me. So I would have to convince people to do it. Convince people to let their, you know, their junior do it, etcetera. But, at one point, I couldn't find anybody to do it. So, I had to put a mattress outside their door and tie my arm to their door so that if they left, it would wake me up. It would, like, pull my arm and wake me up.

Stacy: So, you're sleeping like this?

Astra: Mm-hmm. (interviewer laughs) For…I don't know, a while, a week or two. And so that was pretty ridiculous.

Stacy: So, you didn't want this to happen to you.

Astra No.

Stacy: I can understand that.

Astra: Yeah, exactly. (laughs) I mean, I was doing it to people and I regret, like, everything I ever did, you know?

Stacy: Did you feel bad about it at the time?

Astra: I did. I felt really bad. I just wanted…I so badly wanted to be, like, the person who opens the cage and lets the birds fly away, you know what I mean? I wanted to let them go so badly and I wanted to go with them. (laughs) And the people who did finally get permission to go, I was, like, thinking, "Take me!" I was so…I was jealous of them! Not jealous but…

Stacy: Envious.

Astra: Envious. Yeah, that's the right word. I was so envious. I'm, like, "Oh my God, they're free!" You know, and they're so brave to have persevered through all of that, you know? And I never thought I could do it. And, anyway, then there was a reorganization and I became the Ethics Officer and then the Director of Inspections and Reports for the entire building, which was, like, 600 staff.
Stacy: And what was the name of that place?

Astra: They…that was…I was the Ethics Officer then. I was…they had the Department of Inspections and Reports. I was the Director of Inspections and Reports for…this now, it was called the Flag Liaison Office. International Training Org became part of it. But this is more like, 400, 600 staff.

Stacy: That's the FOLO.

Astra: As…no, that's…the FOLO is the same but lower. There's, like, a FOLO in every continent. Like a FOLO in Europe…

Stacy: Yeah?

Astra: This was the FLO which is, like, the senior organization to all of the FOLO's. They were, like, lower management. We were…

Stacy: So this was a pretty heavy post.

Astra: We were middle management. Well, I was also the Security Chief. That fell under me. The Security Chief…

Stacy: For the Flag Liaison?

Astra: For the Flag Liaison Office. And this is the Hollywood Guaranty Building on Hollywood Boulevard.

Stacy: HGB?

Astra: Yeah. And they have the Life Exhibition there. And then they have the whole middle management is there. And then OSA is there. But because OSA is very sensitive, Office of Special Affairs, you know. They deal with all the legal things to the Church. I wasn't the Director of Inspections for that because you have to have special clearance and that's all, like, super confidential. But I was the Security Chief for them. We did security for the whole building.

Stacy: But the HGB is the international level of management.

Astra: They're, like, the (unintelligible). They're considered upper middle management.

Stacy: So, it's WISE Int., and SMI Int.

Astra: Yeah, it is international to that degree. The only thing above it is RTC.

Stacy: Right.

Astra: But they are, they Church of Scientology International. Like, legally, their legal term is Church of…

Stacy: The people who at the building where you worked?

Astra: Yeah. That's Church of Scientology International.

Stacy: Right.

Astra: So…

Stacy: So that's a big job.

Astra: Yeah. And I was…it was me and a girl younger than me who was about 14 for the whole building and, like, 3 or 4 security guards. It was also my job to collect all the statistics every week and there were a good 10 or 15 people at a time who wanted to leave. And I was responsible for watching them, handling them to stay. There's policies, I guess, for public relations reasons that say if you want to leave, you have to be shipped out within 24 hours. But no one ever leaves in under, like…

Zoe: Oh, I've never heard of anyone leaving within 24 hours!

Astra: In my…no, no one ever does.

Zoe: Never! Not even, like, I've never even heard of a month but maybe. But I've never heard of that.

Astra: Six months to a year and you're lucky. You know, two years sometimes. Because one of the main reasons is they're trying to break you down and another reason is you have to go to confessional before you go. And there's no one to give the confessionals. No one had that job.

Stacy: So how did you deal with it?

Astra: They would have to convince an auditor to do it. Convince someone to take some time to do it. The organization is so bureaucratic. It's so ridiculous 'cause it's all these jobs and there's all these policies and you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this. But you can't do this! But you have to do this but you can't do this! And there's an expression, "Make it go right." You can't say, "I can't do this 'cause there's no one there to do it." It's, like, "Make it go right. You have to it anyway." You could get an order or, like, a program written and it says, you know, I don't know… "Set up computers in this office and set up whole computer systems." But there will be no money to do it. (interviewer laughs) But that's no excuse. So, you try and get permission for money and you're told, "No money. There's no money to do it." But you still have to do it. So, you have people yelling at you saying, "Do it!" And then you're trying to get the money and they say there's no money. And everyone is just, like, going round and round in circles. It's the most unbelievable thing you've ever seen!

Zoe: Yeah!

Stacy: You're ordered to do it. There's no money so you say…So they come in and they say…

Astra: "Make it go right."

Stacy: "You have to do this," and you say, "Well, I didn't get the money approved." And they…

Astra: "You're counter-intention!"

Zoe: Yeah. They say, "you're reasonable," which, to us, now sounds like a good thing to be. (everyone laughs) They even preach that you should be unreasonable but…

Astra: Because they have a policy, suppressive reasonableness. So if you take an excuse for something, like, there is no money, you are being suppressively reasonable.

Zoe: And you're being logical, exactly. (interviewer laughs)

Astra: Or they would have to send…they'd get an order, you know, you get an order, "Send these people out to this other organization to handle them because they're not doing well." But it was no one's job to go. So they would have to, like, find people to go. But there is also a policy that says "Don't do anything other than job. Don't let your juniors do anything other than their job." So, you would say, "There's no one to go and these people can't go because it's off policy." Then there is another policy that says "You cannot use policy to stop." (interviewer laughs) So, you're using policy to stop.

Zoe: Yeah!

Astra: You're being suppressively reasonable (interviewer laughs) and you're being counter-intention! And people spend months trying to, like, find someone to do something. And there's no new…hardly any new people coming in and there's people leaving. So, you know…

Stacy: How did you stay…how did you survive this?

Astra: The International Training Org, when I first got there, had, like 100 staff. And a year later, a year and a half later, had, like 40.

Zoe: It was always constant struggle and arguments between the staff because someone could say, "Oh look. I'm right. Look at this policy." And the other person goes, "Well, yeah. Well, I'm right. Look at this policy." And they conflict. The policies conflict each other. (laughs) And a third person could say, if they are higher in post, most people would, like, listen to them and say, "Oh, no. Look I have this policy here. This…" but you know you could always find a policy to conflict that one, I mean…it doesn't make sense.

Lawrence: I always remember there's another policy in which there's a thing called an "Admin Scale" and there's, like, a list of the importance of things. And one of the most important things is purpose. And then policy comes below purpose.

Zoe: Yeah. You're, like, "How do you make it fit?"

Lawrence: Then if you had something to do and you said, "But that's counter to this policy." They would say, "You're using policy to stop because purpose is higher than policy."

Zoe: Oh yeah.

Lawrence: And then if you follow the purpose without the policy, you're off policy. So, you're just spinning like a top.

Zoe: And there's always another policy to contradict what you say.

Astra: It sound amusing now and it makes me laugh…

Lawrence: It was hell.

Astra: But, in reality, when you are there. This is how it goes: "Do that right now." "Sir, I can't because we didn't get any money." (yelling) "You're fucking counter-intention! Do it right now! You're in lower conditions! You're going to the Rehabilitation Project Force!" You know, (yelling) "You're going to eat in the stairwell! You're on beans and rice! You fucking get it done!" Like that's what it is.

Stacy: And there's so much profanity…

Astra: Yeah.

Zoe: Oh, yeah!

Stacy: …that it's unbelievable!

Astra: One day, they had a newspaper or someone come to do a story and it was supposed to be good story on Scientology. So all the staff were brought into a room and told, "No swearing today. No swearing. I know swearing is how we get things done," Ron Norton said this. "I know swearing is used a lot and it's how we do things, ha ha," and he chucked, "and we have to use it to get things done. That's how we get things done around here but just for public relations reasons today, don't swear." So, I mean, you have, like these people…and there are some people…and there is an organization called the Commodores Messenger Organization. They have the authority-if they don't like what you say to them or didn't get something done for them-they have the authority to imMediately assign you to what's called the Rehabilitation Project Force. Which, for a year or two or longer, you will wear all black. You will run everywhere you go. You will not speak to anybody. You will eat crappy food. You will get paid $6.00 a week or, like, a quarter of what everyone else gets paid. You'll have to repent. You'll have to, you know, say you did everything wrong. You'll have to do endless confessionals. And people are…my brother was on this for, I think a year and a half before they said, "Oh, we made a mistake in sending you to it." But other people are on it for three years. Some people have been on it for six years before they were allowed off. They are allowed to send you imMediately. So, they come and say, (yelling) "Get this done right now…" and they're not even your senior. They are just someone else entirely trying to get something else done but they have, like, ultimate authority. They're supposed to be L. Ron Hubbard's word on everything. So, they come into an office, (yelling) "Astra! What are you doing?" "Oh, sir, you know, I'm doing this…" (yelling) "Well, where's this product?" "I didn't get to it." (yelling) "Well, fucking get it done! You're counter-intention! Fuck you! Go to ethics! Write up your O/W's! You are not going home until this is done!" You know, that was what it was like. That was my life for, like, four and a half years. You could be doing a good job on what you're doing. But if you didn't do something for them, they could just scream at you and no one could do anything. And you couldn't report them.

Stacy: How did you survive?

Astra: I don't know. I just went more and more…that's why I said, I got to a point where I was suicidal because I was terrified. Just more and more and more and more. I just went more and more crazy. But, in a way, you get used to it. But, in a way, you never get used to it. Because you…I mean, I guess I got used to it, you know, I thought it was, you know, just the way it was. And I just kept hoping…we were always in a condition of…like, we were always being told we weren't getting our job done. The whole building…the whole organization-we weren't getting our job done. We weren't expanding Scientology. Scientology wasn't expanding. We had to handle it. But we always kind of had the idea that it was going to soon change. We were going to change it and then everything would be okay and we wouldn't be yelled at all the time.

Stacy: Where is this coming from? Is this coming from RTC? (Religious Technology Center)

Astra: Mm-hmm.

Stacy: From the CMO?

Astra: Yeah. Yeah. We would have briefings. We had two reorganizations when I was there. Where they reorganized everything and they said, you know, "it's not expanding under you guys. We're going to do this." Everyone got assigned a lower condition, like, you are all in treason.

Stacy: The whole building?

Astra: Yeah. And we were in like for, like, a year. And no one was allowed to take a day off. You know, no one was allowed anything for, like, a year.

Stacy: Let me ask you something, Astra. This is all going on at the management level but the public Scientologists are not aware of this at all, are they?

Astra: No.

Stacy: How do they manage to keep the public Scientologists from finding out what it's really like?

Astra: We were made to, like, drill…I'll explain what we did. We would all…everyone would go into a room and we would be briefed. "You are not allowed to tell anybody what is going on here. If you have a problem, you are not allowed to say it. You know, if you have anything going on, you are not allowed to tell them. If you disagree with anything, you can't say anything. All you can do is write a report on it. Even if your spouse or brother or sister or friend is in a lower level organization, you can't tell them anything. Under no circumstances can you tell your family anything." Then they would have us pair up and one of us say, "you pretend to be my father." And you'd say, "Astra, how's school going?" And I would have to give my answer and accept my answer. "Oh, I'm going to school. It's wonderful." "Astra, aren't you working kind of long hours?" "No. I'm not, you know, we get off at this time and it's all legal. And it's all good and I love work anyway. But we probably shouldn't talk about it," or change the subject, you know?

Stacy: So you're drilling how to lie to people?

Astra: We are, yeah. We are getting…

Zoe: Yeah.

Astra: …regularly drilled on how to lie and if you didn't lie. If you did…if I told my dad, "I'm not going to school and I'm working these really long hours. I think it's illegal. I'm not happy." Anything like that or just anything that's going on is considered high level security and you're not allowed to tell anybody, you know? So, if I had said anything, I would have been assigned a condition of treason, which is when you get assigned for out-security. I would have had to do amends. And if I kept doing it, I would have ended up on the Rehabilitation Project Force.

Stacy: (To Zoe) Do you have something you wanted to add to this?

Zoe: Yeah. Well, at least with me, but I noticed this with other people…you get into such a state of mind, like, "Oh, we're clearing the planet and all this." And it, like, your own well being is so unimportant that the Sea Org's image is your image and I remember, like, people asking me about-public Scientologists and I kind of, like, totally protect it. I was like a protective mother. Like, even if I lived in the worst place. Like, someone asked me, you know, that was getting recruited asked me about it, I'd be, like, "You know, they're nice rooms. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's good food. And you know, I'm friends with everyone. My life is going so well. And you know, I have such a better education right now than the public schools. Have you heard what's happening in public schools? I mean, we're just the top people on the planet."

Stacy: And this isn't true…

Zoe: No! I didn't know I was lying because I felt like everyone has to think that the Sea Org was so good. And everyone had to respect Scientology because it was just, like, it was the most important thing on the planet and I don't know…

Astra: She had been indoctrinated in that since she was born!

Zoe: Yeah! I mean, since I was born. So, for me, it was, like, oh I was protecting that! Everyone had to understand how important and how they should have respect.

Lawrence: I would like to say that, as Astra's father, I was on the receiving end of this and so…but I didn't actually know that Astra was totally prohibited from seeing me. So that I knew that she had mentioned that she would collect the statistics so, literally, every Thursday night, she would have to stay up all night. But then she was allowed to sleep in, like, Friday morning, right?

Astra: Right.

Lawrence: So then she would sneak round 'cause I bought her a car so, partly so that I could get to see her. She would sneak round every Friday morning and visit with me because we were close as a father and daughter. And then I…when she went into the Sea Org, I had extracted promises. I said, "Well, I…you must finish your education." You know, "and I've heard these horror stories about people working all night and I used to. And I want you to get proper sleep. I want you to get proper nutrition." I was promised all these things by her and her senior. So, every Friday morning, I would say, "Astra," you know, "how's school? and she would say, "Fine." And I would say, you know, "What did you study?" "Oh, math." You know, "How's your sleep?" "Fine." So I knew that I was being BS'ed basically. I could just sense it. But I didn't dare say, "Come on. Why don't you tell me the truth? What's going on?" Because, you know, Astra seemed so into it and I was just afraid that I would be cut off as a parent. That I wouldn't see her again.

Stacy: There's some barrier there. Isn't there?

Lawrence: There's a barrier, yeah.

Stacy: There's some barrier that everyone is afraid to cross.

Astra: And it's true. And I was terrified of being told I could never see him anymore so I didn't want him to say anything to me that I would know that they would consider bad.

Zoe: And eventually you're freaking too.

Astra: 'Cause then I would have to admit it. And then I would be told I could never see him again. So, I wanted him to think I was doing okay.

Stacy: So everybody is play acting with everybody.

Lawrence: Yeah.

Stacy: Everybody is afraid to say what they are honestly feeling.

Astra: And what that does to your mind is just unbelievable!

Lawrence: I know!

Astra: You no longer know what is going on in your mind. You no longer know how you feel. You no longer know what's true, what's black, what's white. You don't know anything. I had no…my mind was just a mess.

Lawrence: And then she would…because I was what they call disaffected at this point. I had, you know, I had paid lip service to Scientology but I personally no longer liked it. No longer had any intention of spending more money on it. And so then I would ask Astra a few questions about school and her health and then she would imMediately switch to, "Dad, you need to get back on course. Dad, you need to buy more auditing. Dad…"

Astra: Well, this was my drilling of what to do.

Lawrence: And I would then say…
Astra: It's what I was…it was how I had to handle you.

Lawrence: Then I would play my part. I would then say, "Oh, Astra, yes. I've just…you know, work's really hard. And I just, you know, I fully intend to do more auditing." Because, you know, I hated lying and I hated being a part of it but I was just terrified that… Both of my daughters were in the Sea Org and I had heard so many horror stories of parents who just never saw their…you know, their children disappeared.

Stacy: Those stories are true.

Lawrence: Yeah. Those stories are true.

Astra: I used to sneak off to see him. I wasn't allowed to see him and I wasn't rally allowed to have the car. But I lied and said I paid for the insurance myself and it was all mine. So, if they had known he paid for the insurance and stuff…that's an external influence. So, I was questioned about that by RTC.

Lawrence: How do you think these people have managed to gain such an incredible degree of control over people like you? And you? (to Zoe)

Zoe: Oh, it's very gradual.

Astra: It's gradual and then it's very to do with the people who have family in it because that's right over your head. You know, like, I couldn't just walk away because my family was in it and they would never talk to me again. And after time, I mean, it's…okay, it's the thing where you think everything's your fault and you're a bad person and you don't want to be a bad person. You don't want everyone to look at you badly. You don't want your family to never speak to you again. And you really do think that this organization, even though, you know, you think they're saving mankind and you just think we're going through, like, a rough time right now. But it's our fault and we need to handle it. And I always had this thought, like, soon it will get better. Soon, we will save mankind and we won't get in trouble all the time, you know? Soon, things will smooth over. Soon, we'll be getting Scientology expanded all over the planet and, you know, and then no longer will everyone be yelling at us all the time.

Stacy: Why do you suppose the three of you were able to see the truth of the situation and your mother, obviously hasn't?

Astra: We've talked about it, like, between the three of us to kind of try and figure it out. Because, for me personally, the whole time I was there, a little voice in the back of my mind was saying to me, "Why is this all true what Scientology says just because they say so? If I had been born into," you know, "the Christian religion, any other religion, another cult," you know, "what they would be saying would be true. So why is this true? Just because I was born into it?" I think with my mom, her mom's in Scientology. Her mom's in the Sea Organization. And I think my mom always was trying to please her mom because her older sister was very successful and she wasn't like her older sister. So she was always trying to please her mom. I think that's how she got…I don't know. You know, this is just my assumption.

Zoe: You know, we can't be sure.

Astra: And then when she came into the Sea Organization, she kept moving up and up and up onto higher posts and that made her very important. And she got a lot of importance out of that. And, I mean, she was known and is known in the Sea Organization for being even more fanatical than most.

Stacy: Mm-hmm.

Astra: She'll scream and yell at people. She'll really, really get into things. Even more than a lot of the other Sea Org Members.

Lawrence: In the early days of the Sea Organization, she had been on the…L. Ron Hubbard had gone around the Mediterranean on a ship called the Apollo and so she had been on that ship with Hubbard. And she had met him and so, she was really caught up in it.

Stacy: So, she had been in the Sea Org and then she was out of the Sea Org and then she went back in?

Lawrence: Well, actually I think she had sent…that she had been a student and she had been sent there for training, not specifically in the Sea Org. But she had met Hubbard so that had a huge impact on her. And her attitude was, you know, this man Hubbard is so great, so wonderful. And if only you had met him, you know, you would want to do everything you could to help Scientology. And so I would…but I had a kind of a curiosity in my mind. I would ask her, you know, "Tell me about the upper levels of Scientology," you know, "and why is it you people hate psychiatrists?" You know, "I've met some psychiatrists. I think they're nice people. I think they want to help people." And she would, like, "How dare you say that? How dare you question…"

Stacy: Was this before you were a Scientologist?

Lawrence: No. I think, well, I had done some courses. And so, you know, but nothing…

Stacy: But you weren't yet…

Lawrence: I wasn't yet really into it, right.

Stacy Really understanding what you were getting into?
Lawrence: Right. But we were married and so, you know, I thought there would be, like, an open exchange of ideas. But really, she would shut off, you know?

Stacy: So she was already a dedicated Scientologist before…

Lawrence: Exactly, yeah.

Stacy: …before you even met her?

Lawrence: Yeah. Right.

Stacy: And then, did you meet because you came in and started taking these courses?

Lawrence: Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Stacy: Oh.

Lawrence: And then we started to date and, you know, I always admired her because she had done, you know, the higher levels. And she was so highly trained.

Stacy: And what do you think attracted her to you?

Lawrence: Well, at the time I was one of the few people in the…I mean, I was…I had graduated in architecture. I had a job. I had a car. I had a place to live. And, honestly…

Stacy: These things are appealing.

Lawrence: No one else really in the London organization, you know, had those things. Had prospects. Had a job, you know? They are all living hand to mouth. And I think she just saw that I was some kind of meal ticket, you know? She wasn't actually working. You know, she didn't have a proper job.

Astra: My mom was living…she was having some strange people watch Matthew because she couldn't afford to pay for a proper daycare. She was having to borrow money from her parents because she wasn't making any money working at the London Org because they didn't make a lot of money. You know, she was totally stretched thin. And then, along comes my dad.

Zoe: I mean, it was my mother I've always thought that she kind of felt a responsibility towards having us raised in the Sea Org. Because, like, when you…okay, you're not even…even if you're on the same level in Scientology, like, spiritual training, you're not allowed to talk about it with anyone. And she was already way ahead of my father in spiritual training. And it's kind of like a barrier there because there's things you can't talk about and it kind of puts a strain on the relationship just because you can't talk about them. Or there's things one person knows and the other one doesn't. So, she kind of was, like, I guess her attitude was, like, "Oh, I know this and this and they just don't know it."

Stacy: Well, you feel a bit superior, don't you?

Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So, that's what I think.

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