1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume III 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR December 21 & 22, 1999 25 348 1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 MR. A. BROADDUS LIVINGSTON 12 Carlton, Fields, Ward, Emmanuel, Smith & Cutler, P.A. 13 Attorneys at Law One Harbour Place 14 Tampa, Florida 33601 15 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: MR. RONALD P. HANES 16 Trombley & Hanes Attorneys at Law 17 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor Tampa, Florida 33602 18 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 19 Ms. Stacy Brooks Mr. Jesse Prince 20 Mr. Michael Rinder Mr. Marty Rathbun 21 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (via Internet) 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 349 1 I N D E X 2 Volume III 3 December 21, 1999 4 WITNESS PAGE 5 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 6 Service Organization: 7 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG......... 351 9 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 461 10 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 462 11 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE.............. 463 12 13 14 EXHIBITS 15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 6...................... 416 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 350 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume III 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 14 deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, upon oral 15 examination in the above?styled cause, at the 16 instance of the Defendant Church of Scientology 17 Flag Service Organization, for the purposes of 18 discovery or use at trial or both, pursuant to 19 Florida Rules of Civil Procedure, proceedings 20 therefor were held before Susan D. Wasilewski, 21 Registered Professional Reporter, Certified 22 Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the 23 State of Florida at large, at the Wyndham 24 Westshore, 4860 West Kennedy Boulevard, Tampa, 25 Florida, on December 22, 1999, at 8:22 a.m. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 351 1 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 2 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. 3 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 4 had and taken: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 6 by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, having been previously duly sworn, 8 continued to testify as follows: 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Now, yesterday you had testified about 12 this project or work that you were doing for 13 Mr. Haney out of the apartment, primarily out of 14 the apartment that he rented in Columbus. Do you 15 remember that testimony? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And was that all in 1999 or did that bleed 18 into 1998 as well? 19 A. No, just 1999. 20 Q. Now, what kind of equipment was in this 21 room? There was a couple of computers you said. 22 Was there any other equipment in the room? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you, from time to time, have documents 25 copied? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 352 1 A. You mean scanned? 2 Q. No, I mean Xeroxed. 3 A. Oh, no. 4 Q. So in the whole time that you were there, 5 none of the documents were taken out by you or 6 anyone else to be copied? 7 A. I don't remember doing any copying. They 8 were good copies. 9 Q. So the only copying you remember doing was 10 the copying in Washington, D.C. of the tax filings? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Were there any other trips that were 13 financed by Mr. Haney other than the trip to 14 Washington, D.C.? 15 A. Well, as I said, I used the rental car to 16 drive to Seattle. 17 Q. Okay. Any other trips other than that? 18 A. No. 19 Q. I'm really asking you about stuff that you 20 haven't testified about. Mr. Haney's stated 21 purpose for this library was what? What was he 22 going to do with it, did he say? 23 A. Not really. He wanted to be able to have 24 the material available for whatever use he might 25 find for it, that it intrigued him to be able to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 353 1 have it. We didn't have a stated single purpose on 2 it. I do know that he had some litigation of his 3 own earlier where Scientology had come up, although 4 I will say quickly I was never part of it, never 5 advised, knew nothing about it. Whether or not it 6 came from that and, you know, he wanted material or 7 what, I don't know, but the ?? but, as he said, it 8 was an L. Ron Hubbard one and not Scientology, so 9 there was material there with regard to Hubbard's 10 fiction, like a ?? 11 Q. You mean writing? 12 A. Yeah, a book review. I can remember 13 seeing some book reviews, stuff that didn't involve 14 Scientology, just Hubbard. 15 Q. Well, did he say that he was doing this 16 for anybody? 17 A. No, just for himself. 18 Q. And the litigation he's talking about, 19 that was litigation that involved a business that 20 he was in, right? 21 A. Yeah, I ?? something digital ?? 22 Q. Software? 23 A. ?? software or something that, some 24 lawsuit which I didn't follow and didn't know 25 about. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 354 1 Q. It was a lawsuit with his business 2 partners or former business partners, wasn't it? 3 A. Possibly. I don't know. 4 Q. Other than the visits ?? strike that. 5 Did any of the work take place in the Red 6 Roof Inn? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ?? you said yesterday that you 9 stayed at least for some period of time in the Red 10 Roof Inn in Columbus or in the Columbus area, am I 11 right or wrong? 12 A. Yes, I stayed there. 13 Q. And did you stay there for some period of 14 time? 15 A. I've stayed there several times. 16 Q. And was that before or after the apartment 17 that Mr. Haney secured for you? 18 A. Probably before and after. I know I 19 stayed there the first time when I left Well Spring 20 back in August last year, just ?? that was the 21 first time I ever stayed in Columbus and it just 22 happened to be a Red Roof, that was the first time. 23 Q. You just stayed there for a few days? 24 A. Just a couple of days. That was when I 25 said I went up to visit him for the first time. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 355 1 Q. And then after that you went back to 2 Washington? 3 A. No, no. That's when I visited him and ?? 4 Q. Him being Haney? 5 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you meant 6 Washington, D.C. Yeah, then on to Washington 7 State. 8 Q. When was the next time you were in the Red 9 Roof Inn? 10 A. I'm sorry. That's really difficult. I 11 have been at Red Roof Inns all across ?? 12 Q. I'm talking about in Columbus. 13 A. Oh. I don't ?? you know, the next time, I 14 don't know. It's been ?? I went between Red Roof, 15 Microtel, and Motel Six and they are all right next 16 to each other and it was depending upon who was 17 available. 18 Q. All right. Was there a reason that you 19 would be in one of those places other than the 20 apartment that Mr. Haney secured for you? 21 A. I was never in that when I was ?? had the 22 apartment. 23 Q. Okay. And you were in the apartment from 24 when to when, about, so I can get a fix on the 25 time? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 356 1 A. Oh, it was roughly six months. If we back 2 it up from, say, August, so what would that be? 3 March, April, May, June, July ?? say March to 4 August. 5 Q. Okay. And after August, you really 6 weren't in Columbus anymore, correct? 7 A. No. 8 Q. I mean you more or less moved to 9 Cincinnati, didn't you? 10 A. No, I ?? no. I spent as much time 11 probably out as I had in Cincinnati. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. And I even went back to Columbus and 14 stayed up there to visit him for a day. 15 Q. Him being Mr. Haney? 16 A. Yeah, just to say hi. 17 Q. But you stayed at his house? 18 A. No, never stayed at his house. 19 Q. Stayed at the Red ?? stayed in the 20 apartment? 21 A. No, there was no apartment. 22 Q. You mean he gave up that apartment? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And he gave that up because the work was 25 over with, or do you know? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 357 1 A. I don't know. I had moved out and so with 2 me not there and me being the only resident, there 3 was no reason to keep it. 4 Q. Okay. And you had moved out because, as 5 far as you were concerned, the work was over with? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you went up there this last time, 8 after you had moved out of the apartment, were you 9 there with anyone, did you meet any ?? when I say 10 anyone, anyone connected with the Scientology work 11 or cases or movement. 12 A. Well, I think ?? 13 MR. DANDAR: Objection; asked and answered 14 ad nauseam yesterday. 15 MR. WEINBERG: No, it wasn't, Ken. 16 Q. Go ahead, Vaughn. 17 A. When I came back last time, I ?? when I 18 first went up to visit him, I think that time I 19 stayed in the Motel Six. As I say, they ?? I 20 stopped doing the Microtel because the rooms were 21 too small, but it might ?? you know, as I say, I 22 blur these things. That was just an overnight 23 because he was taking off. I think that was end of 24 August this year. 25 Q. And was that ?? at that time did you spend SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 358 1 time with Jesse Prince? 2 A. No. 3 Q. When is the last time you spent time with 4 Jesse Prince in the Columbus area? 5 A. That would have been about a month ago. 6 Q. A month ago is November? 7 A. Gosh. Yeah, maybe a month ago. 8 Q. And where did you stay ?? well, how long 9 were you in the Columbus area that time? 10 A. I think it was three days. 11 Q. And you were staying at a hotel or a 12 motel? 13 A. That was at the Red Roof. 14 Q. So that was the last time at the Red Roof 15 then? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. And was Mr. Prince staying at the 18 Red Roof? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Same room, different room? 21 A. No, different room. 22 Q. And who paid for that trip? 23 A. Well, I paid for it. I paid for my room. 24 Q. You paid out of your own pocket for your 25 room? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 359 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. And you were still driving Mr. Haney's 3 car? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And all it took was a car trip from 6 Cincinnati to Columbus? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And where did Mr. Prince come from? 9 A. He came down from Chicago. 10 Q. All right. And who paid his way? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Did he tell you? 13 A. No, I don't know. I know it was a 14 disaster because he had to come in on a bus because 15 the flight got canceled, so we talked about that 16 and ?? 17 Q. What was the occasion of you and Jesse 18 spending three days together at the Red Roof Inn? 19 A. Working on the case that I said I was not 20 going to discuss earlier because I've not been 21 named, that is not related to this case. 22 Q. So you mean Mr. Prince was working on that 23 case as well? 24 A. He was assisting me to go through some 25 documents. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 360 1 Q. Well, did you bring the documents with 2 you? 3 A. Yes ?? no. Jesse ?? where did ?? right. 4 That was the banker's box, yeah. I brought them. 5 Q. And how did you get the documents? 6 A. Got them from the attorney that I'm 7 working for. 8 Q. And he sent them ?? he or she sent them to 9 you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how long had you had the documents 12 before the meeting? 13 A. Forty?eight hours. 14 Q. And y'all spent three days doing what, 15 generally? What are you doing? 16 A. We're sort of walking on the edge here of 17 my work with it. I'll just say I was doing 18 attorney work product work that was provided back 19 and Jesse left and I came back. 20 Q. Well, did it have to do with Scientology? 21 A. It's attorney work product. 22 MR. DANDAR: Objection; work product. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, no, see, you know, 24 Ken, I have a right to know ?? 25 MR. DANDAR: No, you don't. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 361 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, we're 2 going to be here a long time if I can't ?? 3 MR. DANDAR: You can argue ?? don't 4 argue. I objected. Go on to the next 5 question. 6 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. First of all, 7 are you instructing him not to answer? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 9 MR. WEINBERG: And then secondly, for the 10 record, I have a right to know, if you're 11 offering this person as a witness, I have a 12 right to know if he's working as we sit here 13 today on cases involving Scientology. I have 14 a right to know that so that I can 15 cross?examine. If he's getting money from 16 some lawyer or from some, you know, Mr. Minton 17 or one of these other crazies that are out 18 there throwing money around, buying $250,000 19 houses purportedly for people they don't even 20 know or for cats, I have a right to know that 21 so that I can cross?examine him on it. 22 MR. DANDAR: And you found all that out. 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, he won't tell me 24 whether he's working on a case right now for 25 some lawyer that involves Scientology. Now, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 362 1 how is that work product whether he's working 2 on a case involving Scientology? I don't 3 think it's work product as to what the case is 4 but I haven't even got to that yet. I'm just 5 asking him does the case involve Scientology. 6 I have a right to know. 7 MR. DANDAR: So we'll bring it up with 8 Judge Moody when we see him at ten o'clock. 9 MR. WEINBERG: No, we're not going to 10 bring it up ?? 11 MR. DANDAR: Well, I will. I'm bringing 12 up quite a bit when I see him at ten o'clock. 13 MR. WEINBERG: You know what, you haven't 14 noticed a hearing with Judge Moody with regard 15 to this. 16 MR. DANDAR: Waste your time arguing with 17 me. The objection is stated. He won't answer 18 the question. Now, what do you want to do? 19 MR. WEINBERG: What is the basis of not 20 telling me, not having him say whether the 21 case that he is working on involved 22 Scientology, what's the basis for that? 23 MR. DANDAR: Work product. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what do you 25 understand work product is? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 363 1 MR. DANDAR: Work product is working for 2 any lawyer on any matter in any matter 3 whatsoever that's none of your business. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. So it's none of ?? 5 MR. HERTZBERG: That's not work product. 6 That's documents. 7 MR. DANDAR: If he's disclosed ?? if he 8 is disclosed ?? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Work product has to do 10 with documents. 11 MR. HERTZBERG: It has to with documents, 12 Ken, and you know better. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I mean come on. If he 14 discloses what? How are we supposed to test 15 this? Just sort of like osmosis? He just 16 says work product? I don't even know whether 17 he's Scientology, I don't know whether he's 18 getting paid, I don't know ?? I mean and so 19 we're just supposed to accept this? 20 MR. DANDAR: You can ask him if he's 21 getting paid. 22 MR. WEINBERG: You know, I have a series 23 of questions that I'm going to ask him. 24 MR. HERTZBERG: He's asking a question 25 that ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 364 1 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, if it 2 doesn't have anything to do with Scientology, 3 I'm probably not interested in it, but if it 4 does have to with Scientology, I am. So 5 that's the first question that is the most 6 relevant and appropriate question to ask him. 7 MR. DANDAR: Without waiving the 8 objection, I will let him answer if it has 9 anything to do with Scientology. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Does it have anything to do with 12 Scientology? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: I just want to read 15 something in the record, Ken, because this 16 work product privilege has been asserted 17 throughout this deposition in the most 18 specious and frivolous way. I'm reading from 19 the commentary of the Florida Evidence Code: 20 Work product privilege or doctrine protects 21 certain documents and papers of an attorney or 22 a party prepared in anticipation of 23 litigation. 24 It doesn't have to do with the question 25 that's pending or any number of other SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 365 1 questions that were asked in which ?? for 2 which it was asserted, and you know better, 3 you know better because this is a fundamental 4 principle. 5 MR. DANDAR: If I keep objecting and my 6 objections are worthless, then I think by now 7 you would have taken it up with Judge Moody, 8 which you haven't done and which I invite you 9 to do. 10 MR. WEINBERG: And you know what, we've 11 already filed a motion to compel with regard 12 to Mr. Prince and your ridiculous objections 13 in that, and when we're done ?? 14 MR. DANDAR: See ?? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Can I finish? Can I 16 finish? And when we're done with Mr. Young, 17 we will file a similar motion, and I assume 18 when we're done with the former Mrs. Young, 19 that we'll file a similar motion, and then 20 we'll take all those motions together, because 21 all the objections are the same, and we'll 22 present them to the judge, you know, not in 23 some piecemeal fashion but in one, you know, 24 coordinated hearing so that he can see the 25 full extent of the obstruction here. Okay? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 366 1 But I will go ahead. 2 A. You've had other medical objections? I'm 3 sorry. 4 MR. DANDAR: Well, we'll explore why you 5 have to question him about his cancer, we'll 6 find out why that's relevant to your 7 investigative arm of Scientology. 8 MR. WEINBERG: No. You know, if you want 9 to make speeches, you represented to me, and 10 you I think represented to the court, that it 11 was an absolute emergency, you had to go ahead 12 with Dr. Coe's deposition because he was 13 shuffling off the mortal coil, and it turned 14 out that it was a lie. Okay? And when 15 Dr. Coe was under oath he said no, no, no, he 16 wasn't about to die, he was in Europe 17 traveling. Okay? And you made that 18 representation. Okay? So we went through 19 three or four months of this nonsense before 20 we finally got to Dr. Coe. 21 MR. DANDAR: You're wasting time, 22 Mr. Weinberg. 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. 24 MR. DANDAR: I don't lie to a judge and I 25 don't lie to you and I take offense to it. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 367 1 Let's get going. 2 MR. WEINBERG: You did. You did. 3 MR. DANDAR: Listen, when your time is up 4 today, your time is up. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Wrong. Yesterday we took 6 what, 30 breaks. Now, look, I'm not 7 suggesting that Mr. Young didn't need to take 8 those breaks, you know, and I recognize you 9 did, but don't tell me that my time is done. 10 I have been patient and he I think has been 11 patient and we're trying to get through this, 12 but when you make objections that are 13 frivolous and then you start making speeches 14 and then you start saying things about I'm 15 going to call up the judge, which you do 50 16 times a deposition, I have a right to respond 17 to that. 18 MR. DANDAR: I guess we're going to need 19 a magistrate for these depositions. 20 MR. HERTZBERG: Oh, go ahead. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead and get a 22 magistrate. You know what, they would go very 23 well. And do you know what the magistrate 24 would say with your objections? 25 MR. DANDAR: You won't listen to a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 368 1 magistrate. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Denied, denied, denied. 3 MR. DANDAR: We'll see. But this spying 4 for Scientology on unrelated matters has 5 nothing to do with this case. 6 MR. WEINBERG: There you go. There you 7 go. There you go, spying for Scientology. 8 MR. DANDAR: Your worldwide conspiracy 9 theories has nothing to do with this case. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, who says spying for 11 Scientology, worldwide conspiracy? That's 12 what comes out of your mouth and Mr. Prince's 13 mouth and the former Ms. Young's mouth. 14 MR. DANDAR: We'll see. We'll see. 15 We'll see. 16 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. Every one of 17 these scurrilous affidavits that you file and 18 declarations that have nothing to do with Lisa 19 McPherson, and you know it, you know ?? 20 MR. DANDAR: We'll see. 21 MR. WEINBERG: It gets old, Ken. 22 MR. DANDAR: This is very old. It's five 23 minutes to 9:00. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q. Now, you just said ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 369 1 MR. WEINBERG: Whatever. 2 A. I'm still here. 3 Q. I understand. Now, is this a filed case, 4 is this a case that has actually been filed? 5 A. I'm just pausing. My legal vocabulary is 6 slow. Yes. 7 Q. Is this a ?? 8 A. I hope I'm right on that, you know. 9 Q. Okay. Is this a case where as far as 10 you ?? have you seen pleadings in this case? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So the materials that were sent to you by 13 this lawyer did not include pleadings that had been 14 filed in the case? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Are you preparing something to be filed in 17 this case? 18 MR. DANDAR: In this case? 19 MR. WEINBERG: No. In the case that ?? 20 A. In this instant case? 21 Q. Right, the case that you won't tell me 22 what the case is because of this preposterous, and 23 that's my word, work product objection by 24 Mr. Dandar. In that case that you won't identify, 25 are you preparing some sort of pleading for the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 370 1 case? 2 A. The most I'm prepared to say right now is 3 that will be up to the attorney. 4 MR. DANDAR: And let me clarify. When I 5 say work product, we're also including any 6 sort of privilege that may exist under any 7 local law or rule. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Then what you ought to do 9 is articulate that, Ken, because I can't read 10 your mind. What you've been saying is work 11 product. 12 MR. DANDAR: Well, I just clarified it 13 for you. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, each time you make 15 an objection, then you need to be clear 16 because I don't ?? I don't hear work product 17 and think every local privilege. Okay? That 18 doesn't come to mind. 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Is there a specific 20 privilege other than work product? 21 MR. DANDAR: Sure. A lawyer ?? a party 22 does not have to disclose any consultants it 23 employees to assist it, period, until that 24 consultant is disclosed as an expert, as you 25 well know. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 371 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, but the problem is 2 is this consultant is a paid for, by hire 3 consultant for the last seven years in these 4 cases and runs around the country and does 5 declarations and he's sitting here as a paid 6 for consultant in this case and I have a right 7 to explore his role in antiScientology 8 matters, I have a right to do that. I don't 9 care whether it's disclosed or not disclosed. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. All right. This work that you and ?? is 12 it your understanding that Mr. Prince was also a ?? 13 working on this undisclosed matter in the same room 14 that you were in? 15 A. I thought I stated that. 16 Q. I want to make clear. He wasn't just an 17 outside observer, he was being paid to do what you 18 were being paid to do, is that ?? 19 A. I don't know that. 20 Q. Well, are you being paid to do it? Well, 21 what do you mean you don't know that? I mean if he 22 wasn't, what are we hearing work product here? Was 23 Mr. Prince part of this other lawyer's team or not, 24 do you know? 25 A. Mr. Prince was invited by the attorney I'm SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 372 1 working with to work with me on it. 2 Q. Was Mr. Prince being paid, as far as you 3 know? 4 A. I don't know Mr. Prince's arrangement. 5 Q. I'm just asking you whether you know or 6 not. 7 A. I just said I don't know Mr. Prince's 8 arrangement. Doesn't that answer it? 9 Q. So Mr. Prince didn't indicate to you that 10 he was receiving any money for this, what was it, 11 three days in the Red Roof Inn? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. He didn't indicate that he was getting any 14 money for that? 15 A. No. I just had instructions from the 16 attorney to work with Mr. Prince. 17 Q. All right. Now, did you ?? did Mr. Prince 18 communicate with any other lawyer while he was in 19 this room or rooms with you at the Red Roof Inn? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he talk to Mr. Dandar? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did Mr. Dandar have anything to do with 24 the two days, three days that you and Mr. Prince 25 were dealing with this box? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 373 1 A. No. The first time I spoke with 2 Mr. Dandar in the last year is when he set up this 3 depo. 4 Q. So Mr. Prince didn't say anything about 5 working on the McPherson case up there then? 6 A. No. 7 Q. He didn't say anything about doing this 8 for Mr. Dandar while he was up there then? 9 A. Not at all. This was for somebody else 10 and it was never discussed as far as dealing with 11 any other attorneys. 12 Q. So it would shock you if he so testified 13 that part of his three days up there had to do with 14 the McPherson case, that would shock you? 15 A. No. I'm just saying he never discussed it 16 with me, there was nothing said. 17 Q. And you certainly weren't working on the 18 McPherson case up there, as far as you knew? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Now, did you prepare anything up there? 21 A. As I said, I gave material back to the 22 attorney and I just sort of draw the line there as 23 to what we discussed. 24 Q. No, but did you prepare a declaration or a 25 draft declaration? I'm not asking you what was in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 374 1 it but did you prepare, you know, an affidavit for 2 yourself? 3 A. Well, I have prepared some stuff that I 4 have given to the attorney. What the attorney now 5 wants to do with it we'll discuss next. 6 Q. Who has copies of that? 7 A. My attorney. 8 Q. Does Mr. Dandar have a copy? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have ?? I mean does anybody else ?? 11 does Mr. Prince have a copy? 12 A. I don't think so. 13 Q. Did Mr. Prince prepare anything? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Minton while you were 16 there? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Well, why do you find that amusing? 19 A. It's just his name always keeps coming up 20 and I've answered the questions many times about no 21 conversations for the last year and a half and I 22 keep getting the questions. 23 Q. Well, the reason I ask you though, you 24 know, you do find it somewhat astounding, don't 25 you, that a person, according to your testimony, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 375 1 out of the blue bought a $250,000 house and gave 2 your wife $50,000 in cash, you find that fairly 3 astounding don't you, sir? 4 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Objection to the 5 form and it's argumentative. 6 A. That's not ?? I never agreed to that 7 statement, no. 8 Q. You don't find that astounding? 9 A. I said Mr. Minton did not buy the house 10 and you agreed with me, and now you've changed 11 that. 12 Q. Mr. and Mrs. Minton bought the house, not 13 Mr. Minton. 14 A. Okay. If you want to put it that way and 15 have me answer the question, I'll be happy to. 16 Q. Forget it. All right. Let me ?? 17 A. Could I say something, sir? 18 MR. DANDAR: No. 19 Q. No, you cannot. No, you cannot? 20 MR. DANDAR: No. No. Just answer the 21 question. What's going on? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, just, you know, there 23 is comments, laughing, and, you know, I sit 24 here and watch both sides. It's just the 25 laughing going on. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 376 1 Q. Yeah, but you're not talking about me 2 laughing? 3 A. No, not you. Mr. Rinder down sitting 4 there laughing at me. 5 Q. Well, you know, but we're sitting over 6 here and, look, this is a ?? 7 MR. DANDAR: Don't point to my side. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm ?? what do you mean 9 don't point? I'm pointing. 10 MR. DANDAR: Because, number one, your 11 back is to my side, so you couldn't possibly 12 in good faith argue about anything going on 13 over here. 14 MR. WEINBERG: You know what, Ken, the 15 problem is is that when I start talking, you 16 interrupt me. 17 MR. DANDAR: There's nothing going on 18 over here. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Now, you can say what you 20 want to say and then I'll say what I want to 21 say, but don't interrupt me. You know I speak 22 with my hands. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q. But the fact of the matter is the problem 25 is, Mr. Young, is that when you have a room and you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 377 1 bring this person and this person, Mr. Prince 2 and ?? 3 A. I didn't bring anybody. 4 Q. Well, Mr. Dandar did. 5 A. I'm sorry. 6 Q. For whatever reason, he brought your 7 ex?wife and Mr. Prince, okay, who have filed 8 scurrilous affidavits in this case and made a lot 9 of scurrilous statements on the Internet about 10 people, including the people on this side. So, you 11 know, it makes ?? and Mr. Dandar knows that and 12 he's doing this on purpose but it makes for a 13 rather ?? it makes for a rather potential explosive 14 situation, which I don't particularly like and you 15 probably don't particularly like it. So we're 16 going to do the best we can. Okay? So if you'd 17 just focus on me ?? 18 A. I'd like to. That's why I said a while 19 ago I'm here. 20 Q. ?? and I'll focus on you. But let me read 21 you ?? 22 A. All right. You and I talk here. 23 Q. Okay. Let me read you some excerpts from 24 Mr. Prince's deposition. 25 A. Okay. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 378 1 Q. All right? Which was just taken ?? by the 2 way, did Mr. Prince speak with you about being 3 deposed in this case? 4 A. He may have. I don't recall. I recall 5 more the declaration. 6 Q. Well, it wasn't that long ago. He was 7 deposed on November the 17th and 18th. So has he 8 told you about his deposition? 9 A. I don't think so. 10 Q. Did he talk to you in advance that he was 11 going to be deposed in the case, did he tell you 12 that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Did he tell you about his trips 15 to ?? his trip to Europe? 16 A. He mentioned he went to Europe. 17 Q. Did he tell you that he was sort of lured 18 over there and ended up being interrogated by the 19 German secret police, did he tell you that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. He didn't tell you that? 22 A. I didn't hear any things about luring and 23 German police, no. 24 Q. He didn't tell you that he spent several 25 days speaking to the German secret police? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 379 1 A. No, he didn't get into the details of 2 that. 3 Q. Now, you've done that in the past, haven't 4 you? 5 A. I went to Germany. 6 Q. And talked to the secret police or the 7 government police or whatever you want to call it, 8 right? 9 A. Well, I would be difficult to name the 10 section specifically but I spoke to German 11 agencies. 12 Q. And it was all about Scientology, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Right. Did he tell you about his 15 adventure in Amsterdam, did he tell you about that? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Didn't tell you about cybercafes, didn't 18 tell you about that, going into a cybercafe? 19 A. No. No, I didn't even know they had a 20 cybercafe. I mean no. 21 Q. He didn't tell you about going to places 22 where they sell, you know, pot off of a menu, he 23 didn't tell you about that? 24 A. No. You guys are really keeping up with 25 him, I can tell that. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 380 1 Q. In the deposition I've just asked him 2 questions about his trip to Amsterdam and then I 3 said: Question: And then once you got back to 4 Chicago, you stayed there and did you go somewhere 5 else? This is on page 532. 6 Answer: I left, made a trip to Ohio. 7 Question: And you visited with whom in 8 Ohio? 9 Answer: Mr. Young. 10 Question: Mr. Vaughn Young? 11 Answer: Correct. 12 And then I ?? that was through line 13 and 13 I'll skip some because there was ?? 14 MR. DANDAR: What page was that on? 15 MR. WEINBERG: 532. 16 Q. ?? there were some objections and stuff. 17 And ?? well, no, I'll go ahead and read it: He 18 lives in Ohio? 19 Answer: I can't state. We met at a 20 hotel. We didn't meet at his home or his place of 21 residence. 22 Well, did he ask you to go there or did 23 you ask him to meet him there? 24 Answer: Neither. 25 Question: Who arranged for the meeting SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 381 1 between you and Mr. Vaughn Young in Ohio after your 2 return from Las Vegas following the Amsterdam trip? 3 Then there is an objection and then I say: 4 Question: Who was at the meeting? 5 Dandar ?? Mr. Dandar makes one of these 6 work product objections and we have one of our 7 arguments, and then I ask the question: Who else 8 was there, Mr. Prince? 9 Answer: No one else. 10 Question: Just you and Mr. Young? 11 Answer: Correct. 12 Question: And did you ?? how long did you 13 meet? 14 Answer: Three and a half, four days. 15 Question: In a hotel room? 16 Answer: Correct. 17 Question: Which hotel? 18 Answer: Red Roof. 19 Question: What city? 20 Answer: Columbus. 21 Question: Did Mr. Haney have anything to 22 do with the meeting? 23 Answer: No. 24 Did Mr. Young have anything to do with the 25 meeting? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 382 1 Answer: No. 2 Did Mr. Minton have anything to do with 3 the meeting? 4 Answer: No. 5 Did Mr. Leipold have anything to do with 6 the meeting? 7 Answer: Yes. 8 Question: Did Mr. Dandar have anything to 9 do with the meeting? 10 Answer: Yes. 11 Question: Was Mr. Dandar at the meeting? 12 Answer: No. 13 Question: Did Mr. Dandar participate in 14 any way in the meeting? 15 Answer: Yes. 16 Question: How? 17 Answer: Phone call. 18 Question: How long in the three and a 19 half days was Mr. Dandar on the phone with y'all? 20 My southern accent coming out ?? 21 A. And they put that in the transcript, 22 y'all? 23 Q. Yes. Answer: Maybe about eight minutes. 24 Question: Did Mr. Leipold participate in 25 any way in the meeting? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 383 1 Answer: Yes. 2 Question: By phone call? 3 Answer: Correct. 4 Question: How long was he on the phone in 5 three and a half days? 6 Answer: My best guess is maybe 40 7 minutes. 8 That was ?? I read from 532 to line 15 on 9 536, leaving out the objections. 10 Mr. Leipold is this undisclosed lawyer? 11 A. I'm not going to confirm or deny. I stand 12 by my testimony and Mr. Prince has testified with 13 what he's testified to. 14 Q. Well, do you deny that Mr. Dandar called 15 during the meeting? 16 A. Mr. ?? 17 Q. I'm just asking you. Yes or no? 18 A. I did not. Mr. Prince had his own room. 19 He told me several times I'm going upstairs to make 20 some phone calls. He made his phone calls. I 21 wouldn't know with whom he spoke. 22 Q. Do you deny that Mr. Dandar had anything 23 to do with the meeting, which is what, Mr. Prince, 24 wherever he is, testified under oath? 25 A. I'm saying he had nothing to do with my SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 384 1 meeting and my work product and being in Columbus. 2 He arranged nothing. I did not do anything for 3 Mr. Dandar. 4 Q. So you have no idea what Mr. Prince was 5 testifying to under oath? 6 A. He apparently spoke with Mr. Dandar. 7 Q. I'm just asking you. You have no idea 8 what Mr. Prince was talking about when he said that 9 Mr. Dandar had something to do with the meeting? 10 A. That's true. 11 Q. Do you have some written agreement with 12 regard to this undisclosed case? Do you know what 13 I mean by written agreement? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Like a retainer agreement or a ?? 16 A. There is a letter between me and the 17 attorney. 18 Q. And do you have some agreement as to what 19 your compensation will be for whatever the work is? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is it by the hour or is it a flat fee or 22 what? 23 A. It will be by the hour. 24 Q. And have you submitted any bills with 25 regard to this work? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 385 1 A. No. 2 Q. So you have not been paid? Did you get 3 any advances? 4 A. A small advance. 5 Q. What's the amount of the advance? 6 A. $1,000. 7 Q. Does that cover the amount of time to date 8 that you've spent on the case? 9 A. I'm sorry. I'm not an attorney so I don't 10 know how far this goes but it's sort of, you know, 11 it's pushing the edge of ?? 12 Q. You haven't heard an objection. Okay? 13 A. I don't care about the objection to that. 14 I'm just talking ?? 15 Q. You know what though, you're the witness 16 and I have a right to know what you've been paid. 17 You haven't told me what the case is, you haven't 18 told me who the lawyer is, you know, but you have 19 said it's with regard to Scientology, which is what 20 you're supposed to be testifying about. So ?? 21 MR. DANDAR: And he said $1,000 and I'll 22 object and instruct him not to answer on 23 privilege and work product. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Instruct him not to answer 25 what question? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 386 1 MR. DANDAR: About the last question you 2 posed. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Which was? 4 MR. DANDAR: Did you use up your retainer 5 yet. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I don't believe that was 7 my question. Why don't we look at my last 8 question? 9 (The question was read by the reporter.) 10 MR. WEINBERG: And you're making a work 11 product objection to that? 12 MR. DANDAR: Right, because ?? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Because what? 14 MR. DANDAR: I can see that he's 15 uncomfortable in discussing this any further 16 and I agree with him, and that it's privileged 17 and work product until he's disclosed in that 18 case, and then you can ask, as on all the 19 other cases that you know about where he's 20 testified, as many questions as you want. 21 MR. WEINBERG: See, the problem is, Ken, 22 is that this is going on as we speak. 23 MR. DANDAR: That's the problem. It is a 24 problem. 25 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. It's a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 387 1 problem for you because you've got this person 2 here who professes to be, you know, an expert 3 who you are going to say has credibility and 4 as we speak he's working on some other 5 undisclosed Scientology case doing God knows 6 what and I have a right to know that, 7 particularly if he's getting paid for it. 8 MR. DANDAR: And you know all that. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I know nothing. He hasn't 10 told me anything. 11 MR. DANDAR: He's not going to talk any 12 more about that case. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Because you're instructing 14 him not to? 15 MR. DANDAR: Absolutely. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q. How many hours have you spent on that 18 case? 19 MR. DANDAR: Don't answer the question. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Why? 21 MR. DANDAR: Same objection, same 22 grounds. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I think it's time to go to 24 court. I don't ?? you know, we're going to 25 have to get there. You know, Ken, same SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 388 1 objection, how many hours have you spent 2 working on a case involving Scientology as 3 we're sitting here, I can't ask an expert that 4 you've got on the stand? 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. Answer that one 6 question. Go ahead. 7 Q. Go ahead. 8 A. He's leaving. 9 Q. No, I'm getting coffee. 10 MR. DANDAR: Oh. Well, you slammed 11 something down. I thought you were leaving. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just saying ?? I mean 13 you profess to want to get this over with and 14 you make the silliest, most ridiculous 15 objections. 16 MR. DANDAR: I can't wait until we talk 17 about the McPherson case. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know what, we 19 talked a lot about the McPherson case, but 20 it's kind of hard to ask questions of somebody 21 that says that he doesn't know Lisa McPherson, 22 was never there, and in 1995 was in Seattle, 23 Washington. 24 MR. DANDAR: That's the only question you 25 asked him. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 389 1 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not. 2 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead and answer his 3 question about the ?? 4 THE WITNESS: I'll wait until he comes 5 back. 6 MR. DANDAR: I don't think he wants you 7 to wait but ?? 8 MR. WEINBERG: You don't think what? 9 MR. DANDAR: I don't think you want him 10 to wait to answer it until you come back, do 11 you? 12 MR. WEINBERG: That's okay. 13 THE WITNESS: I'll wait. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not trying to be rude, 15 I just need a cup of coffee. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q. All right. Go ahead. 18 A. You need some caffeine to get ready for 19 this one? 20 Q. No. Our firm Christmas party was kind of 21 late last night, so I need some caffeine. 22 A. To respond to your question though, I 23 perhaps worked 15 hours. 24 Q. So it was ?? really, the work was all at 25 the Red Roof, on that trip on the Red Roof Inn? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 390 1 A. Yeah, pretty much so. If I could just 2 clarify one point, because I said three days there, 3 and if you try to multiply 15 ?? I had a great deal 4 of difficulty during that trip with pain and being 5 able to sit up to do any work, so it wasn't a full 6 three days, you know, if you try to divide this 7 thing. 8 Q. This was after you were diagnosed or 9 before you were diagnosed? 10 A. Before. 11 Q. And is your rate $100 an hour? 12 A. I'm not going to discuss my rates with 13 that attorney. 14 Q. And the reason is what? 15 A. Attorney work product. It's part of the 16 letter. 17 Q. I'm just trying to figure out if we're 18 getting a discount or not. 19 A. I appreciate your sense of humor. Thank 20 you. Why don't we end on that subtle laugh? 21 Q. Well, we've got 15 more minutes. 22 MR. DANDAR: No travel time? 23 Q. Do you still have the documents? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So does Mr. Prince have the documents? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 391 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did he come to the meeting with documents? 3 A. I don't remember him coming to the meeting 4 with documents. 5 Q. When were you retained in that case, date, 6 approximate date? 7 A. A couple of weeks before that, roughly. 8 Q. Okay. And the meeting ?? you know, I read 9 Mr. Prince's testimony. Is that consistent with 10 when you remember the Red Roof Inn meeting was? 11 A. I don't remember the date that you cited 12 but ?? 13 Q. It was somewhere I think at the end of 14 October or the beginning of November. 15 A. That sounds about right. 16 Q. It wasn't that long ago, in other words? 17 A. No. I know it was about 10 days before I 18 was diagnosed and I was diagnosed just before 19 Thanksgiving. 20 Q. So that is consistent? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Now, and it's your testimony that all of 23 that, this new case, the lawyer, the meeting, was 24 all before you had any communication with Ken 25 Dandar? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 392 1 A. That's the best I can remember it. I 2 don't remember precisely when he called me to say, 3 you know, they want to take your deposition, we're 4 going to set it up. I know it occurred when I was 5 in extreme pain and I said to Ken, listen, you're 6 going to have to do this, we've got to figure this 7 out because I don't think I can even be on an 8 airplane for two hours. And some ?? this is sort 9 of a strange way to date something but I sort of 10 date it by the diagnosis and my physical state. So 11 it was right in that period of ?? no, I guess it 12 was I heard ?? probably afterwards, yeah, it would 13 be towards the end of November. 14 Q. I guess what still confuses me, Mr. Young, 15 is that, talking about the Lisa McPherson case, 16 that on October 6th, 1999, you signed an affidavit 17 that we talked about a little bit yesterday, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And this meeting with Mr. Prince was after 20 you signed the affidavit in the McPherson case, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You had some communication with Mr. Dandar 24 with regard to this affidavit in the McPherson 25 case, didn't you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 393 1 A. No. 2 Q. You didn't even talk to him? 3 A. No. 4 Q. This was all done through his agent, 5 Stacy, your ex?wife? 6 A. I don't consider him ?? her his agent. 7 Q. What do you consider her then? 8 A. A friend. 9 Q. Well, what is her role in this case as far 10 as you understand it? 11 A. I haven't discussed her role in this case. 12 Q. Why is she here then, do you know? 13 A. She is serving as an expert for 14 Mr. Dandar. 15 Q. So how do you know that? 16 A. I've caught up recently in the last couple 17 of days that I've been here. 18 Q. You mean she told you that? 19 A. No. Mr. Dandar told me that. 20 Q. Well, you talked ?? last night you met 21 with Stacy? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Met with Jesse? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Talked about your deposition? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 394 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. What did you talk about your depo? 3 A. Oh, talked about how great it was to have 4 Marty Rathbun and Mr. Hertzberg here because I 5 asked Jesse if they were here for his depo and he 6 said no, and I said, hey, I'm scoring better than 7 you, Jesse, you know, I got ?? 8 Q. Jesse told you that Mike Hertzberg wasn't 9 here for his depo? 10 A. That's the way I remember it, maybe I'm 11 wrong, but definitely Marty wasn't here, so that 12 sort of made me the big man on the block. We 13 talked about how fascinating it was that ?? all 14 this paranoia about Well Spring, that I was there 15 to ?? and I was saying do you think this is a radio 16 transmitter in my ear that I'm receiving 17 instruction ?? 18 Q. So y'all were ?? it was just a humorous 19 conversation? 20 A. Yeah, it was. 21 Q. Did Stacy or Jesse tell you anything, that 22 you had screwed up or should change today? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Didn't talk about that? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 395 1 Q. Didn't show you any documents? 2 A. No. 3 Q. So you do this affidavit, which you 4 testified yesterday you just ripped off the 5 computer, right? 6 A. (No response.) 7 Q. You sat down at the computer and created 8 it? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And if there was language in this 11 affidavit which is virtually word for word with 12 language in other affidavits, that's just 13 coincidence? 14 A. Total coincidence. I consulted no other 15 thing that I had ever written when I wrote that. 16 Q. No one had sent you a draft of this 17 affidavit? 18 A. Not at all. 19 Q. And no one edited this affidavit? 20 A. Nobody saw it until it went to Mr. Dandar. 21 Q. Now, you obviously saw Mr. Prince's 22 affidavit before you did this affidavit? 23 A. Yes. Well, I read it, yes. 24 Q. And you got that because Stacy e?mailed it 25 to you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 396 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you edit Mr. Prince's affidavit? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you edit Mr. Prince's second 5 affidavit? Did you know that he did another 6 affidavit? 7 A. No, I didn't know that. 8 Q. You had nothing to do with ?? 9 A. Which means I don't know which affidavit I 10 saw. I saw an affidavit, so I don't know if we're 11 talking first or second. 12 Q. Well, you saw a lengthy affidavit, right? 13 A. Length is a relative term. I guess maybe 14 it was ?? it was on e?mail, so I can't judge size. 15 It was single spaced, so it was long. 16 Q. But you describe what the affidavit that 17 Mr. Prince ?? that you saw basically covered in 18 your affidavit here? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. So it shouldn't be too 21 difficult to figure out which affidavit, but the 22 point is you didn't edit or have anything to do 23 with the creation of either of his affidavits, is 24 that right? 25 A. Never saw anything from him until the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 397 1 e?mail copy. 2 Q. Now, when Mr. Prince was visiting you from 3 time to time, did he discuss with you that he was 4 writing an affidavit? 5 A. No. I had not seen Mr. Prince for a while 6 until he showed up in Columbus. 7 Q. At the Red Roof Inn? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you knew he was showing up? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So this person that you won't identify 12 basically put the meeting together? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that's why y'all showed up. And why 15 the Red Roof Inn? 16 A. I asked for the Red Roof because I could 17 take, you know ?? have my dog. 18 Q. Why not Cincinnati, why not just Jesse 19 come to Cincinnati and you can do it at home? 20 A. Sort of halfway between Chicago and 21 Cincinnati. It turned out to be a bad choice 22 because it was a lousy city to fly in to, but we 23 just decided, you know, it's a halfway point. 24 Q. Well, what did y'all do, since you weren't 25 able to work 15 hours a day, I think I heard you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 398 1 say that, what did you do the rest of the time? 2 A. Fifteen hours a day? Nobody works 15 3 hours a day. 4 MR. DANDAR: That's not what he said. 5 A. I'm sorry. I misunderstood. 6 Q. You know, I think you understand what I'm 7 saying. Since you weren't able to work around the 8 clock at this visit, what were you doing the rest 9 of the time, what were you doing in the downtime? 10 A. I would just stretch out. I had a lounger 11 that I would stretch out on or the bed and just 12 rest. 13 Q. So you didn't go out on the town with 14 Jesse? 15 A. No. We went one time to ?? what was it, 16 the Mexican restaurant. I don't know if we went to 17 the Fudrucker's hamburger place. 18 Q. Did Jesse go out by himself, or do you 19 know? 20 A. I don't think he did. Each evening we had 21 dinner together. 22 Q. Did anyone else show up? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Stacy show up? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 399 1 Q. Did you call Brian Haney while you were 2 there? 3 A. I tried and he was ?? that's right. He 4 was gone. I was going to say hi, I was in 5 Columbus, but he was out of town. 6 Q. When is the last time you talked to Brian 7 Haney? 8 A. Maybe about a week ago. 9 Q. And did you ask him is it okay you still 10 use his car or is that just a given? 11 A. No. No. We were talking about the Bible. 12 Q. Is that just a given, that you can use it 13 as long as you want to? 14 A. I guess so. 15 Q. Are there any conditions? 16 A. Don't destroy it. 17 Q. Well, I mean conditions as to what you 18 have to do with your life? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Is it your testimony that you didn't learn 21 that Stacy was employed as an expert in this case 22 until a few days ago? 23 A. Really, as an expert, no. I knew she was 24 down and around but, as I said, I have not kept up 25 with this case and spoken with Mr. Dandar for over SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 400 1 a year. 2 Q. So the answer to my question is you just 3 found out a few days ago? 4 A. What her actual status was, yes. 5 Q. Does Mr. Minton have any involvement 6 whatsoever, as far as you know, in this other 7 undisclosed case? 8 A. As far as I know, no. Let me put it this 9 way. I've not heard his name mentioned. 10 Q. Now, the Der Spiegel article that we went 11 over yesterday that you received money for and 12 ultimately we established that from Der Spiegel you 13 got $20,000, that work that that you were paid for 14 had to do with Scientology, right? 15 A. The magazine article was about 16 Scientology. 17 Q. All right. If you will ?? see this 18 Exhibit 5? If you will go to ?? I think we were 19 here yesterday when we quit. If you go to a page 20 that says Schedule F, Unsecured Claims ? 2, 21 yesterday we were just going over when we ran out 22 of time the entries on this page which are 23 essentially, you know, unsecured debts, the largest 24 of which are credit card debts. Are these credit 25 card debts that both you and Stacy ran up or is it SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 401 1 just you, Stacy or what? 2 A. I think they were all, you know, with both 3 of us on the cards. I don't remember us having 4 individual cards. 5 Q. And what's the Ford Greene legal services, 6 $796.37, what's that for? How old is that? 7 A. This is a year or so before. I'm trying 8 to remember what Ford did for us. 9 Q. It's obviously unrelated to Scientology? 10 A. It's unrelated. It was ?? I'm trying to 11 remember. 12 Q. Did you sue somebody or somebody sue you? 13 A. No. No. There was no lawsuits. 14 Q. Have to do with the cats? 15 A. The only part I really remember is when we 16 were putting this together, you know, and we were 17 saying, you know, Ford is a friend, even if it has 18 been a long time, just a general friend too, and, 19 you know, put him down, he's a friend, and then ?? 20 but the attorney says, hey, you've got to put down 21 all your debts or it's really not legal. I'll put 22 it down. That's the part I remember. I don't 23 remember even thinking what it was for but he did 24 some legal services for us a year or two before 25 when we were down in Southern California. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 402 1 Q. The doctor, was that from your accident 2 when you were driving a taxi? 3 A. No. Sorry. 4 Q. What was that from? 5 A. That was for some medical that Stacy had. 6 Q. Is this a dentist, teeth? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. If you just flip a page, flip 9 another page. What are you laughing about? 10 A. That you've been told the taxi story. 11 It's a very funny story. 12 Q. I read your testimony. 13 A. Oh, that's good. 14 Q. Schedule 1, Current Income of Individual 15 Debtors, marital status, married. So when this was 16 filed in 19 ?? September of '95, you were married, 17 you and Stacy were married, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And it shows occupation, it shows you as a 20 writer and her as a writer, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But at this point y'all didn't have any 23 writing jobs, did you, in September of 1995? 24 A. I don't remember when the Der Spiegel 25 piece was but I've always considered myself a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 403 1 writer and I ?? just as Mr. Hubbard, I said I'm 2 always and first foremost a writer. Even though he 3 did all of Scientology and everything else, and 4 writing screenplays, he considered himself a 5 writer, and I take this same position, my first and 6 foremost writer's love. That's why my Internet 7 address is Writer. I'm a writer regardless of what 8 I do. 9 Q. I guess what I'm saying is you weren't 10 employed by anybody at this point to do any writing 11 that you can remember, correct? 12 A. I've never been employed. I've always 13 been freelance. 14 Q. You didn't put down here consultant, at 15 least it doesn't look like it, right? 16 A. No, because I'm a writer first and 17 foremost. 18 Q. And Stacy is a writer first and foremost 19 too? 20 A. She's always felt the same way, yes. 21 Q. It's just that y'all were sort of between 22 jobs in the sense of pieces, right, at the time you 23 filed this? 24 A. A freelancer is always between jobs. 25 Q. Okay. It says that she was employed ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 404 1 self?employed as a writer for one year. So she had 2 only been a writer for one year, according to this? 3 A. That's what she wanted to put down. 4 Q. And the reason she wanted to put that down 5 is what? 6 A. I didn't ask her. 7 Q. And it said you had been employed as a 8 writer for six years. That's the six years after 9 you left Scientology in '89, is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then it shows monthly income and it 12 doesn't show any, does it? 13 A. Sir, I'm losing my place here. 14 Q. Estimate of average monthly income, do you 15 see that? 16 A. Monthly overtime. 17 Q. No. No. 18 A. Oh, monthly income. 19 Q. What's it say there for you and your 20 spouse? 21 A. It says debtor spouse, current monthly 22 gross, is that the line you're looking at. 23 Q. Yeah. What's it say? 24 A. Zero. 25 Q. And that was accurate when you filed it, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 405 1 right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. All right. Then we go to the next page 4 which has your expenses, and it sets forth your 5 expenses and including $950 a month for the rent, 6 says everything else, and if you add all that stuff 7 up, it's a lot more than zero, right? 8 A. I'm losing track. 9 Q. Your current expenditures on a monthly 10 basis are in Schedule J, right? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Mortgage, water, food, clothing, 13 recreation, stuff like that, right? 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. It's there. You add all that up and it's 16 a lot more than zero? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So that at this point in time you 19 had virtually no income, you had a lot of expenses, 20 you had a lot of debt and that's why you filed for 21 bankruptcy? 22 A. No. 23 Q. That's not why you filed for bankruptcy? 24 A. No. 25 Q. The reason you filed for bankruptcy was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 406 1 what? 2 A. Well, when we asked the gentleman about 3 this as far as monthly gross, we explained income 4 is sporadic, it changes, you know, I might make 5 $10,000 in a month and make nothing for a couple of 6 months. I don't have a monthly. He says, well, at 7 that point you just put down zero and we can figure 8 that out, because I'm not ?? I said I'm not 9 employed, I don't get $1,000 a month or whatever 10 one gets, and that's why the zero. So when you 11 asked your question, because of my monthly income 12 versus monthly expenses, I have to answer no 13 because I had monthly expenses, I just didn't have 14 a monthly income. 15 Q. And the reason you filed bankruptcy is 16 that you had too many debts and too little income, 17 right? 18 A. That is correct. Never do credit cards. 19 MR. DANDAR: Do you want to break now? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, I guess we better. 21 MR. DANDAR: Or do you want to finish up 22 on this bankruptcy? 23 MR. WEINBERG: No. Well, let me just 24 see. 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 407 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. And at that point in time, in September of 3 1995, you needed this consultant work that you were 4 doing for these lawyers in cases involving 5 Scientology in order for you and Stacy to 6 financially survive, didn't you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You didn't have any inheritance, did you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Stacy didn't have any inheritance, did 11 she? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You didn't have a full?time job, we've 14 established that, right? 15 A. In that sense of being a freelancer, a 16 regular ?? 17 Q. Right. 18 A. No. 19 Q. And Stacy didn't either, did she? 20 A. No, but we didn't need it for ?? to answer 21 your question again, we didn't need it. It was 22 because we had the credit card debts and we didn't 23 simply want to ignore them, which many people do 24 and continue to live, because we had enough income 25 to live if we just ignored the debts. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 408 1 MR. WEINBERG: Let's go. 2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. We're off the record 3 at nine what? 4 MR. WEINBERG: 9:35, I guess, or 37. 5 (Recess 9:37 a.m. to 11:42 a.m.) 6 (Mr. Hanes entered the room.) 7 MR. DANDAR: Let me interrupt you for a 8 minute. Before we get, I really ?? I think 9 it's appropriate for the record to disclose 10 who is on the end of the Internet getting 11 these live transcriptions because they are in 12 effect making an appearance by ?? 13 MR. WEINBERG: If I knew, I'd tell you. 14 I'll find out because I don't know as I sit 15 here now. 16 MR. DANDAR: Can we get the e?mail 17 address for who they are connected to. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll try to ?? I'll 19 find out, yeah, I'll try to find out. I don't 20 even know how this works, so I've sort of been 21 out of that loop. 22 MR. DANDAR: You don't know who the 23 e?mail address is? 24 MR. WEINBERG: You are asking me 25 something that you could interrogate me for SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 409 1 five years and I would not have any clue as to 2 what the e?mail address is, but I'll find out 3 for you. 4 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 5 MR. WEINBERG: So what do I have to find 6 out? 7 MR. DANDAR: Find out the e?mail address 8 and who's at the other end. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Probably some 10 computer. 11 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't think so. 12 MR. WEINBERG: And as you understand 13 what's happening, it's a live feed, right, so 14 the transcript is through this software 15 that ?? have you purchased one, too? 16 MR. DANDAR: Not yet. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Are you in the ?? you're 18 going to? 19 MR. DANDAR: I'm thinking about it. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Through the 21 software, just so the record is clear, you're 22 able to get a live feed from the depo, right? 23 THE WITNESS: Wow. 24 MR. DANDAR: It's through Livenote.com. 25 Whoever is listening ?? or not listening but SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 410 1 who is ever at the other end is tying into 2 Livenote and Livenote is tying into here, they 3 can see on their computer screen all the words 4 that are being typed by the court reporter. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 6 THE WITNESS: In realtime? 7 MR. DANDAR: In realtime. 8 MR. WEINBERG: In realtime. 9 THE WITNESS: Wow, what a future. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It's beyond my 11 capabilities. 12 THE WITNESS: Is this a common thing in 13 court cases now coming up? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, in court you can do 15 it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, you can do it in court 17 too. 18 THE WITNESS: Wow. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I've never seen it. I 20 didn't know about this particular program. 21 The court reporter told us about the program. 22 MR. DANDAR: In six months it will be 23 obsolete and there will be something else out 24 there. 25 THE WITNESS: So then her notes get SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 411 1 translated back in English by a computer 2 program? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: And then it's transmitted. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 6 MR. DANDAR: Anywhere in the world. 7 THE WITNESS: Wow. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q. All right. I had asked you right before 10 we left about inheritances and I just wanted to 11 make the record clear. You have not received any 12 inheritances since your bankruptcy, is that right? 13 A. There was some money that came from my 14 mother's death. 15 Q. And when did she die? 16 A. Late '97 ?? sorry. It was a traumatic 17 experience. '97. 18 Q. All right. And how much money? 19 A. $1,000. 20 Q. $1,000? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy has not 23 received any inheritances since the bankruptcy? 24 A. As far as I know. 25 Q. All right. Now, I had asked you a number SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 412 1 of questions yesterday about your activity 2 concerning this case, the Lisa McPherson case, and 3 you answered a number of questions and I even 4 showed you what we marked as Defendant's Exhibit 1, 5 which was a July 8, 1997 posting, where you, 6 through the Internet, were seeking information ?? 7 well, you said you had been retained, although it 8 turned out I guess you hadn't actually been 9 retained at that point, but you were seeking 10 information with regard to AMC ?? with regard to 11 AMC Publishing. Do you remember that? 12 A. Yeah. Actually, what it is, to clarify, I 13 was seeking the search engine technology for 14 searching that type of ?? that entity. 15 Q. And you were doing this on your own? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You hadn't been asked to do this by 18 anybody? 19 A. No. 20 Q. No meaning yes, right, you had not been 21 asked to do it by anyone, is that correct? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. You weren't being paid for that work? 24 A. No. I was using the opportunity to ?? as 25 you can tell, I was sort of like you, Mr. Weinberg, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 413 1 I didn't know that much about the Internet and I 2 was using it as an opportunity to learn it. 3 (Mr. Livingston entered the room.) 4 Q. Now, did you seek other information in 5 addition to information concerning a search engine 6 that you could use to find out stuff about AMC, did 7 you seek other information by similar postings on 8 your own on the Internet with regard to the 9 McPherson case? 10 A. I'm not sure what you mean by other 11 information. 12 Q. Well, did you seek information on the 13 Internet in that time frame, I'm talking about 14 June, July 1997, did you seek information on the 15 Internet with regard to the defendant Janis Johnson 16 in this case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you seek information on the Internet 19 with regard to the former defendant in this case, 20 David Minkoff? 21 A. I don't believe I did. The only reason I 22 couched it momentarily was I ?? there was a point 23 in time later I somehow learned that he was cited 24 in a Scientology Internet site, but I don't 25 remember how I learned that, but I don't think I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 414 1 found it. I just think I picked that one up 2 somewhere, but I don't remember looking 3 specifically for him. 4 Q. Okay. You know from your work in the case 5 now who the defendant Janis Johnson is, don't you? 6 A. I need a little bit of refreshing. It's 7 been a couple of years since I even ?? 8 Q. Well, you remember that she was the ML ?? 9 part of the MLO? 10 A. Right. Okay. 11 Q. Okay. Now, did you ?? back at this time, 12 when you were doing this on your own, did you get 13 copies of records concerning her work and/or 14 licensing as a doctor? 15 A. There was ?? I recall there was something 16 in the discovery documents, just a one?page or 17 something brief that I saw, brief like a biography 18 that just gave some sort of background, but I don't 19 really remember. 20 Q. I'm talking about you're familiar, since 21 you've gone through the archives in Washington of 22 the IRS, you're familiar that states have licensing 23 boards? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You're familiar that they have boards of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 415 1 medical examiners? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You're familiar that doctors are licensed 4 in states? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that one can go to those licensing 7 boards or boards of medical examination and get 8 records, public records with regard to applications 9 of people that are licensed, you understand that, 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And my question is did you have any 13 information like that with regard to Janis Johnson 14 in this period of time that we're talking about, 15 June, July 1997, when you were doing ?? when you 16 sent on your own the Internet request for search 17 engine information? 18 A. No, I don't recall doing anything like 19 that. I ?? the Internet was too new to me. 20 MR. DANDAR: Can I interrupt just a 21 minute? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 23 MR. DANDAR: For appearance?wise, we need 24 to make a record that Mr. Livingston 25 representing Flag is now present in the room. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 416 1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 2 Q. Now, did you do or ?? did you do 3 investigative work on your own with regard to the 4 Lisa McPherson case? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. I mean you understand what I mean 7 by investigative work? 8 A. I think I understand. 9 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 6 was marked for 10 identification.) 11 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you what I'll have 12 the reporter mark ?? she's already done it ?? as 13 Exhibit 6. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'll give you a copy. 15 Q. And tell me if you recognize this to be 16 an Internet posting made by you on July 17th, 1997, 17 with regard to the Lisa McPherson MDs? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Did you have a chance to read it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you send that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that in 24 or about July of 1997 you were seeking through the 25 Internet information regarding Janis Johnson and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 417 1 Dr. Minkoff? 2 A. Yes, I do, and apparently that third 3 paragraph is the brief biography that I must ?? I 4 was referring to as remembering, and in the fifth 5 paragraph is where I was asking how can the Net be 6 used to gain this type of information, as I was 7 still trying to learn how to obtain this type of 8 information since I didn't know how to obtain it. 9 Q. But you were doing this on your own, this 10 work, this effort contained in this memo dated 11 July ?? this posting dated July 17th, 1997, was 12 something that you were doing on your own? 13 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 14 A. I'm not quite sure what you mean by on my 15 own. 16 Q. Well, did ?? were you acting on somebody's 17 direction to send this out on the Internet? 18 A. Oh, no. Doing it in this manner was my 19 own idea. 20 Q. And you thought that it would be of use to 21 you to find what kind of information with regard to 22 Janis Johnson? 23 A. Well, since there was so little 24 information, and I have to be quite honest and say 25 that I was also curious at the time, just learning SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 418 1 the Internet, as to what you might be able to 2 receive. That's why I've stated that in two 3 paragraphs, how the net could be used, and so I was 4 using that as a way, since there was so little 5 information and since they were named in the case, 6 just to receive basically biographical information. 7 Q. Well ?? and you were going to do what with 8 this information? 9 A. Not knowing what the information is, I 10 can't respond to that, sir. 11 Q. Were you going to sell the information? 12 A. No. I wanted to find out what information 13 was available. Of course one knows that if a 14 doctor is licensed in the state of Florida, you can 15 go to the State of Florida and look up licensing 16 information. My interest was what information 17 could I obtain via the Internet without having to 18 travel or telephone, making it most economical in 19 time and effort. 20 Q. Did you have access to Lisa McPherson's 21 diaries or phone books? 22 A. I ?? do you mean the notes on the last 23 isolation? 24 Q. No. What I'm asking you is do you ?? did 25 you have access to records that were kept by Lisa SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 419 1 McPherson at her house or her office of her ?? of 2 phone numbers of friends, did you have access to 3 that? 4 A. They might have been in the discovery 5 documents. I don't remember. 6 Q. But you don't remember? 7 A. I don't remember ?? I certainly didn't use 8 them. 9 Q. By that I mean ?? by that you mean you 10 didn't go through her personal records, pull out 11 names of people and pick up the phone and call 12 them, you didn't do that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And if somebody said you did do that, 15 they'd be lying? 16 A. No, not necessarily. I'm just saying I 17 did not go through that material like that to be 18 calling people. 19 Q. Well, did somebody provide ?? and I'm 20 talking now, you know, this same time period, June, 21 July, August of 1997. All right. Did somebody, 22 did anybody provide you with the names and phone 23 numbers of people who purported to have known or 24 been friendly with Lisa McPherson so that you could 25 call them? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 420 1 A. No. I only had the discovery documents, 2 the best of my recollection. 3 Q. Well, do you remember going through the 4 discovery documents ?? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. ?? excuse me. Let me finish my question. 7 Do you remember going through the discovery 8 documents and pulling out names of individuals with 9 phone numbers and picking up the phone and calling 10 those individuals and asking them questions about 11 Lisa McPherson, do you remember doing that? 12 A. I called somewhere but I don't know if it 13 was a person or a company, but there was a call or 14 two made, but I don't remember to whom or where 15 because I don't remember what information was 16 gained. 17 Q. Well ?? but you didn't call someone and 18 say that you were a lawyer, is that right? 19 A. No, I would never do that. 20 Q. You didn't call someone and tell them that 21 you were working for Scientology? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You didn't call a Scientologist and lead 24 on that you were a Scientologist seeking 25 information with regard to this situation, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 421 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you remember calling any individual 3 anywhere who ?? and ask them what they knew about 4 Lisa McPherson, do you remember doing that, that 5 purported to know Lisa McPherson? 6 A. There was somebody I spoke to when there 7 was this out?of?state conference. I'm trying to 8 remember where it was. It was in one of the 9 southern states, like Georgia, Alabama, that she or 10 somebody went up to on AMC, and back when I was 11 trying to understand why somebody was ?? without 12 the documents here, it's difficult. They were out 13 of state and trying to deal with somebody that was 14 having a problem and I was trying to get this 15 connection back because the document was very ?? I 16 know what it was. It was ?? okay. It was a 17 knowledge report that somebody had filed about a 18 problem that they were having with some of their 19 staff and it was connected to AMC, it's starting to 20 come back a little bit now, and regarding the drive 21 up and the drive back, and this was a problem that 22 Lisa was having. Now, that was it, it was a 23 problem that Lisa was having, and I was trying to 24 figure out what does this out?of?state thing got to 25 do with anything. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 422 1 Q. What do you mean out?of?state thing? 2 A. Well, you know, the whole Lisa McPherson 3 thing is occurring in Clearwater, but there was 4 this out?of?state incident that occurred and I was 5 trying to just understand this out?of?state, you 6 know ?? what was it, was it a field representative 7 sales meeting, was it a conference, was it a 8 convention. 9 Q. So what, did you call like a business or 10 something to ask them what the conference was, is 11 that what you did? 12 A. I was calling someone to try to understand 13 this out?of?state part. 14 Q. All right. So you didn't call someone and 15 say I understand you knew Lisa McPherson, tell me 16 about Lisa McPherson? 17 A. I don't recall making that sort of 18 statement. 19 Q. You called somebody that had been a 20 customer or was a company that was in contact with 21 AMC and had been at some convention to find out 22 what this convention was? 23 A. Something like that, yes. 24 Q. Now, do you remember from the documents 25 that you saw that just prior to the incident that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 423 1 led to Ms. McPherson being at the Fort Harrison, 2 that Ms. McPherson had been at a convention in 3 Orlando and had exhibited a lot of problems in 4 front of third parties and customers and things 5 like that, is that what you're talking about? 6 A. That may have been the one. 7 Q. So it wasn't out of state, I mean Orlando 8 is in Florida? 9 A. Excuse ?? 10 Q. Is that what you're talking about? 11 A. Excuse my lack of geography as a ?? you 12 know, from California. 13 Q. But what you're not talking about is 14 picking up the phone and calling somebody from one 15 of her phone books and saying I see your name in 16 the phone book or in some record and, you know, did 17 you know Lisa or were you a friend of Lisa or tell 18 me something about Lisa, you didn't make calls like 19 that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Now, going back to this document, 22 Exhibit 6, in the third paragraph you say: NOTE: 23 By sheer coincidence there was another Dr. Janis 24 Johnson working in the same Arizona ?? 25 A. Hang on a second. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 424 1 Q. Paragraph three, the last sentence. 2 A. Oh, okay. After note. 3 Q. NOTE: By sheer coincidence there was 4 another Dr. Janis Johnson working in the same 5 Arizona clinic, so the DOB, date of birth, is 6 crucial to distinguishing them. 7 My question was that you didn't look at 8 some biography in a record to learn that, you must 9 have done some investigative work with regard to 10 Dr. Johnson to know that there were two Doctor 11 Johnsons working in the same clinic in Arizona, 12 right? 13 A. Apparently so. I don't recall how I came 14 up with that coincidence. 15 Q. But you just don't remember what you did? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. You can just put that down. Now, 18 did you ever speak to, by phone or in person, 19 through the Internet, by mail, anyone associated 20 with law enforcement concerning Lisa McPherson? Do 21 you understand my question? 22 A. Yes, I do. There was an officer with the 23 Clearwater Police Department, and I can't recall 24 his name, that I spoke with where I was asked some 25 questions with regard to what I would characterize SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 425 1 as translating or referral, such as a person 2 saying, like I used before, what does RD mean and 3 where can I find it and how does it relate to. 4 Q. Sort of like Mr. Dandar was asking you? 5 A. Very similar, yes. And I don't remember 6 this officer's name, and I spoke with him. 7 Q. And that was pretty much the extent of 8 what he was interested in, a little interpretation 9 as to terms? 10 A. Yeah, it was very, you know, very ?? well, 11 it means this, it means that. Okay. There was 12 also a time before moving to Vashon, well before, 13 when I met with two representatives from Florida, 14 again, I don't remember their names, who had flown 15 to Seattle, who wanted to speak to me and Stacy and 16 we met at a restaurant and chatted for, oh, perhaps 17 about an hour, the bulk of which was primarily not 18 dissimilar to the first meeting with Mr. Dandar, 19 which was basically seeking to understand my 20 background and hers and, you know, how long have 21 you been in, what do you know, and this type of 22 thing, where you become familiar with, with us. 23 And it was a, as I said, a relatively brief 24 meeting, maybe only an hour. It was mostly over 25 lunch. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 426 1 Q. Anything else? 2 A. No. 3 Q. All right. Now, this phone call ?? I take 4 it the first contact was a phone call? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And was it one of the gentleman that you 7 met with in Seattle? 8 A. No. 9 Q. It was a different officer? 10 A. Yes. Yes. 11 Q. And you know that because what? 12 A. Hang on a second. No, it may ?? one of 13 the gentleman may have been the same one. I 14 remember one was ?? one was local and one was 15 State. 16 Q. The local person was Sergeant Wayne 17 Andrews, correct? 18 A. That name sounds familiar. 19 Q. And the State person was with the FDLE or 20 the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and his 21 name was Lee Strope, correct? 22 A. I recognize the agency name better than I 23 recognize his name. 24 Q. What did these two gentlemen look like? 25 A. I'm sorry, I'm real terrible at SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 427 1 descriptions. 2 Q. Well. Mr. Andrews, Sergeant Andrews, is a 3 tall man, isn't he? 4 A. I remember that generally speaking, but 5 other than just they were ?? I would call them 6 middle?aged white males of average build. That's 7 about as good as I can do. 8 Q. You remember that Mr. Strope is, you know, 9 pock faced? 10 A. Yes. I remember one of them was pock 11 faced. I don't remember which one it was. 12 Q. Now, and you believe that one of them had 13 called you previously? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you believe that the person that 16 called you previously was with the Clearwater 17 Police Department and not with the Florida agency, 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, when did he call you? 21 A. It was in that summer. I don't remember 22 what month. 23 Q. Did he call you before or after Mr. Dandar 24 called you for the first time? 25 A. I can't respond to that right now. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 428 1 Q. Did he call you before or after you ?? 2 Mr. Minton or the Mintons bought the house for the 3 cats? 4 A. It was well before because I remember the 5 meeting was in West Seattle and not Vashon. 6 Q. Well, the phone call came before the 7 meeting though? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How long before the meeting did the phone 10 call come? 11 A. To the best of my recollection, a few 12 weeks. There was a second phone call which 13 arranged the meeting, you know, we're coming in, 14 could we meet with you, and that one occurred just 15 a matter of, I don't know, maybe days, a week 16 beforehand, you know, could we come up and meet 17 with you on such and such day, yeah, that's fine. 18 That was the content and the extent of that second 19 call. 20 Q. Okay. I just want to, before I go into 21 the detail, I just want to make sure that we have 22 everything. We've got, as far as you know, your 23 communication with the Florida authorities with 24 regard to Lisa McPherson, it consists of two phone 25 calls and one eyeball?to?eyeball meeting, is that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 429 1 right? 2 A. Best of my recollection. There might have 3 been a second call and the same sort of, you know, 4 can you help me with, what does such and such mean, 5 another one of these translation calls. That may 6 have even occurred after the meeting. 7 Q. But you're guessing? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You don't remember that? 10 A. Not exactly. 11 Q. Do you know whether Stacy, your ex?wife, 12 has had any other contact in what you've just 13 described, two phone calls and one meeting that you 14 both were at, with the law enforcement officials 15 from Florida with regard to the McPherson case? 16 A. In that same time period? 17 Q. Any time. 18 A. I don't really know other than those ?? 19 Q. What you're saying is as far as you know, 20 the only contact that Stacy has had is what you've 21 just described? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was Stacy on the phone calls? 24 A. No, not the ones that I had, it wasn't ?? 25 Q. They called you and not Stacy? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 430 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you know anything about Lisa McPherson 3 when you got this phone call from Sergeant Andrews? 4 A. Not as much as I knew with even these 5 postings, which makes ?? I'm remembering as they 6 were telling, you know, we're doing this 7 investigation, et cetera, it seems to place it 8 before the material with Mr. Dandar. I sort of get 9 the feeling that, as I said, mainly they were 10 asking me about my qualifications and Stacy about 11 her qualifications, that looking back at how I 12 felt, I didn't seem to know that much about what 13 went on and even asked a couple of questions since 14 I didn't have that much familiarity. That seems to 15 place it in the sequence. 16 Q. So your best recollection as we sit here 17 today is that this communication and visit with the 18 Florida law enforcement officials came before you 19 were communicating with Mr. Dandar? 20 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 21 Q. Now ?? and my question that precipitated 22 this last exchange was when you were first 23 contacted by the police, did you know anything 24 about Lisa McPherson or was this like the first 25 time that you learned about Lisa McPherson when you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 431 1 got a phone call from Sergeant Wayne Andrews of the 2 Clearwater Police Department? 3 A. No, I knew something, because I remember 4 being able to respond, well, I've heard of it and 5 blah, blah, blah, and knowing a little bit. I 6 don't, in my recollection right now, don't get the 7 impression of, oh, yes, I saw the invoices when she 8 was at the Fort Harrison, which is sort of how I 9 measure it. Whether or not it was off of just a 10 news story or reading an Internet posting, I really 11 can't say. 12 Q. Did the agents ?? when I say agents, the 13 representatives from law enforcement, did they send 14 you anything? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You received no written communication from 17 them? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You signed no documents in front of them? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You didn't give them an affidavit? I'm 22 talking about you and Stacy now. 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did they leave anything with you? 25 A. I think we got business cards. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 432 1 Q. Did they show you anything, and I'm 2 jumping forward a little bit but it comes to mind, 3 did they show you and Stacy anything at the 4 meeting, any document, any photograph, any records? 5 A. No, just identification. 6 Q. Now, on this first call, and I want you to 7 be as precise as possible, what is your best 8 recollection of what Sergeant Andrews said to you 9 and you said to him? 10 A. That's tough, Mr. Weinberg. 11 Q. Well, give it a shot. 12 A. Well, other than just the way I described 13 it, because ?? 14 Q. Start ?? I want you, as you're sitting 15 here today, because this is obviously very 16 important because it has to do ?? Mr. Dandar keeps 17 talking about when are we going to talk about Lisa 18 McPherson. Well, we're talking about Lisa 19 McPherson. 20 A. I understand. 21 Q. All right. And we're talking about you 22 getting a call I assume out of the blue, right? 23 You didn't expect a call from the Clearwater Police 24 Department, did you? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 433 1 Q. You don't get calls from law enforcement 2 people very frequently, do you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. All right. So you get a call from a law 5 enforcement person from Florida with regard to a 6 Scientology matter that you at least know something 7 about, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. So that's an important event in 10 your life? 11 A. It's different. 12 Q. Okay. So ?? I mean you, over the last six 13 years, have filed ?? and at some point today we'll 14 count the number of declarations, but declarations 15 that recount activities dating back to 1969, right? 16 A. I'll accept your word for that. 17 Q. Right. I mean with great detail, things 18 that happened years ago, correct? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. All right. So I'm only asking you 21 something about a conversation and a meeting that 22 happened, you know, a little ?? about three years 23 ago. Okay? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. All right. So I'm not talking about 20 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 434 1 years ago, I'm talking about three years ago. So 2 what I'm asking you to do now, what I'm asking you 3 to do is to make your best effort with as much 4 precision as possible telling us what it was that 5 Mr. Andrews, Sergeant Andrews, said to you, asked 6 you, and what you told him so that we can then make 7 the next step and go to the meeting. 8 A. It's correct, I have done things with 9 precision but I can't begin to imagine to tell you 10 how many phone calls I get which are simple, fast, 11 what does it mean. To the best of my recollection, 12 the subject that was raised when I was asked was do 13 you know anything about an isolation rundown or 14 isolation watch, and I said I know of it but not 15 personally, nor did I have at the time any 16 documents pertaining to it. To the best of my 17 recollection, I think I even went to ?? I might 18 have gone to the technical dictionary, grabbed it 19 off a shelf to see if there was a definition, I 20 don't remember even if there is a definition in 21 there, and said there was material on it. Okay. 22 Now, I remember. And I said it's in red ?? there 23 is some red volumes, and the gentleman I was 24 speaking with said, yeah, we have some red volumes 25 here. I said, well, just go to the index. That SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 435 1 was pretty much the ?? and asking, as I said, 2 asking me a little bit of familiarity with it and I 3 said, you know, knew as much ?? said as much as I 4 knew, which I've described, and that was pretty 5 much the substance of it. 6 Q. What did the officer tell you that he was 7 doing? What did he tell you about what he was 8 investigating? 9 A. No, he did not mention Lisa McPherson on 10 that first call. 11 Q. What did he say? 12 A. He identified himself as an officer with 13 the Clearwater Police, that ?? understood that I 14 had some knowledge of Scientology, et cetera, yes, 15 I do, trying to get whether or not you have ?? and 16 I, you know, when somebody identifies themselves as 17 police, I don't question. I don't say give me a 18 phone number, I want to call you back because it's 19 against the law to represent yourself, even though 20 there are some notorious incidents, but ?? so I 21 accepted it and just wanted to see what the 22 questions were. And since it was just a technical 23 reference question, as I said the best I know is 24 just ?? I think it was something to the effect of 25 just with an investigation that we have underway. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 436 1 Q. Involving Scientology, he told you that, 2 obviously? 3 A. I don't know if he said that but by the 4 question it obviously involves that. 5 Q. Well, did he tell you how he got your 6 name? 7 A. No. My name has been plastered 8 everywhere. 9 Q. I'm just asking did he tell you how he got 10 your name? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did he tell you ?? did he say anything 13 about Scientology? 14 A. I don't remember him mentioning it. 15 Q. What he thought about it? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did he say that this was an investigation 18 concerning a death? 19 A. I don't recall him mentioning that. 20 Q. So you had no idea what he was calling 21 about then? 22 A. Not really. And I make that compared to 23 the meeting with the two gentlemen later, to 24 finding out there was a serious law enforcement 25 investigation underway, and I didn't realize there SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 437 1 was ?? 2 Q. But you didn't make the connection between 3 Lisa McPherson, which you ?? I think you indicated 4 you knew something about, and this officer's call 5 when the first call came in? 6 A. I was making a connection myself but I 7 wasn't talking about it. 8 Q. So you didn't say are you calling about 9 the Lisa McPherson case? 10 A. No, I don't remember saying that but I was 11 just answering his question with very technical ?? 12 Q. Well, by then had there already been the 13 Inside Edition show where Joan Wood, the medical 14 examiner, appeared and made all those outrageous 15 statements, had that already happened by the time 16 that ?? 17 A. I don't know. I never saw that show. 18 MR. DANDAR: Objection to form. 19 Q. Oh, you never saw that? 20 A. Never saw the show. 21 Q. Well, by then had you seen some of the 22 publicity on the Internet about the Lisa McPherson 23 matter? It was all over the place. 24 A. I had seen something but I hadn't seen 25 news stories and, quite frankly, you know, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 438 1 St. Pete?Tampa press doesn't move very far out of 2 St. Pete?Tampa. 3 Q. No, but it seems to get on the Internet. 4 And you would frequent the various antiScientology 5 sites on the Internet, right? 6 A. No. 7 Q. No? So you didn't go to altreligion, you 8 never went to that site? 9 A. My answer was to an antiScientology site. 10 I don't consider that to be an antiScientology 11 site. 12 Q. So that's a pro?Scientology site? 13 A. No, it's just altreligion.Scientology. 14 Anybody can post whatever they want, pro or con to 15 it. 16 Q. But you go to that site, you've visited 17 that site before, is that right? 18 A. Yes. I don't know how frequent I was 19 because by my statements you saw by my postings, I 20 was very unfamiliar with the Internet. I don't 21 remember ?? 22 Q. How about Stacy, is she unfamiliar with 23 the Internet too? 24 A. She was even less familiar than I was. I 25 was the geek. I was the one that liked to play SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 439 1 with the computer, not her, so I didn't even know 2 how to do a search engine at the time, much less 3 find websites or et cetera. I don't even know when 4 I picked altreligion.Scientology, to tell you the 5 truth. 6 Q. At some point you picked it up though? 7 A. At some point. 8 Q. And she picked it up too, didn't she? 9 A. Much later. 10 Q. Now, in this first telephone call, did ?? 11 well, how long did it last? 12 A. Oh, five minutes maybe, very short. 13 Q. Did Stacy talk to him? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you give them your background in 16 Scientology in this five minutes? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did he tell you that he knew what your 19 background was? 20 A. No, just other than, you know, I 21 understand that you have some familiarity and I 22 said yeah. 23 Q. Did he offer you anything? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did he say that he wanted to come visit SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 440 1 you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The next time you heard from him was a few 4 days later? 5 A. Seems more like a week or two later. 6 Q. And the same guy called up and said he 7 wanted to fly to Seattle from Clearwater and talk 8 to you and Stacy? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did he say what he wanted to come talk 11 to you and Stacy about? 12 A. It was about the McPherson case. 13 Q. So now he disclosed that it was the 14 McPherson case? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Did he say what he wanted to talk to 17 you ?? strike that. 18 Did you tell him that you didn't know one 19 thing about Lisa McPherson? 20 A. No, because he also couched it in terms 21 of, you know, qualifications to the possibility of, 22 you know, since it involves ?? I forget how he put 23 it, you know, language and procedures they're not 24 that familiar with, we'd like to just talk to you 25 about it. I'm thinking okay, I've done that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 441 1 before. 2 Q. So why couldn't you just do that over the 3 telephone? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Did you find it a little bit ?? did he 6 tell you he was going to bring somebody else with 7 him? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you find that somewhat amazing, that a 10 local law enforcement official would fly 11 cross?country to spend an hour in Seattle with you? 12 A. No, not really. 13 Q. Now, did he tell you specifically what he 14 wanted to talk to you about? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So you didn't try to dissuade him from 17 flying across country? 18 A. It's his dime. 19 Q. You didn't suggest that maybe we ought to 20 do this initially on the phone to see if it's worth 21 your while? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And did he say anything about Scientology 24 or his views of Scientology? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 442 1 MR. DANDAR: Could we take a lunch break? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'd like to finish, 3 if I can, this ?? 4 THE WITNESS: He's on a roll. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Huh? 6 THE WITNESS: I said you're on a roll. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's ?? I mean you 8 tell me that I, you know, I don't ask any 9 questions about Lisa McPherson, and now I'm 10 asking questions, I'm in the middle of a line 11 of questions and, no, I don't ?? would prefer 12 not to take a lunch break right now. 13 MR. DANDAR: Well, we're going to. You 14 know that, right? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I didn't say we're 16 not. 17 MR. DANDAR: Because we started at 8:30, 18 so ?? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand that, 20 and we spent ?? 21 MR. DANDAR: See how long you're going to 22 go. 23 MR. WEINBERG: ?? half the morning in 24 front of Judge Moody. 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 443 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. Now, did you tell them or did they ask you 3 questions with regard to your or Stacy's 4 qualifications to give them any help? I'm talking 5 about over the telephone. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did they mention Mr. Dandar's name? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Or he, the person that you had the phone 10 call with? 11 A. No. 12 Q. At the meeting did they ever mention 13 Mr. Dandar's name? 14 A. I don't recall them mentioning it, no. 15 Q. Where did ?? and you made some agreement 16 in advance that you would meet at some designated 17 place at a designated time, or did they get to 18 Seattle and then call you? 19 A. I don't remember that part. I just 20 remember we ended up meeting at a restaurant in 21 West Seattle. 22 Q. What's the name of the restaurant? 23 A. I don't remember. It was up on the ?? 24 gosh, where ?? I think it was ?? what we call the 25 Alki, A?l?k?i, on the Alki Beach, a simple SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 444 1 restaurant. I just wanted to have a place that I 2 knew would be pretty quiet, a corner table. 3 Q. Why not meet at your house? 4 A. They even said, you know, a restaurant, 5 they wanted to have lunch, you know, because it was 6 midday that they were coming in, like 12:00, one 7 o'clock, and they said maybe we could meet for 8 lunch, if you know a restaurant that's sort of 9 quiet. I said yeah, and I just ?? a little simple 10 place about a mile and a half up the road, that was 11 fine with me. 12 Q. Did they tell you they were visiting 13 anybody else out there? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did they tell you they were going to go to 16 Canada and visit Jerry Armstrong? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did they mention Jerry Armstrong? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did they ask you about Jerry Armstrong? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did they ask you about anybody else that 23 was apostate, former Scientologist? 24 A. No. No. 25 Q. Do you remember how they were dressed? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 445 1 A. Casual suits, casual tie. 2 Q. They were not in a uniform then? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did they have anything with them? Did 5 they have briefcases? 6 A. I don't remember them bringing in a 7 briefcase. They each had their own little notes. 8 Q. They had a pad or something? 9 A. Or maybe, you know, small half size, 10 something that they would write something down in. 11 Q. What day was this? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. What was the date? 14 A. I don't remember. 15 Q. Do you know what the month was? 16 A. No. Just ?? the best I recall, it was 17 summerish. 18 Q. Do you remember what the year? 19 A. I think it was '97. The weather was good. 20 That's the best thing I can remember, which is 21 unusual for Seattle. 22 Q. Did they have their suitcases with them? 23 A. No. 24 Q. They were already checked in some motel? 25 A. I don't know. I don't know if they were SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 446 1 ?? I did not know at the time if they flew in, saw 2 me and were flying out. I did not know what their 3 schedule was. They just arrived with little 4 notepads to take notes and left. 5 Q. So they took notes during the meeting? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Anyone ?? the pock faced guy or the other 8 guy, who was taking the notes? 9 A. I don't remember. I seem to remember that 10 each of them ?? or maybe ?? I don't remember. It 11 wasn't of any interest to me. 12 Q. Who was asking the questions, the pock 13 faced guy or the other guy? 14 A. They each asked questions. 15 Q. Did anybody lead ?? I mean one of the guys 16 who I'll represent to you as Sergeant Andrews, who 17 is the tall guy ?? 18 A. What's his first name? 19 Q. Wayne. One of the guys, Sergeant Andrews, 20 is with the Clearwater Police Department. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. The other guy, who has the pocked face, 23 he's Lee Strope. He's with the Florida Department 24 of Law Enforcement. 25 A. Okay. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 447 1 Q. Do you remember if it was the Clearwater 2 guy or the FDLE guy that was mainly asking the 3 questions, or was it a combo? 4 A. It was pretty close, but if I had to favor 5 it either direction, it was the Clearwater 6 official. 7 Q. Now, did y'all eat lunch? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did both you and Stacy participate in this 10 meeting? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did both you and Stacy talk during the 13 meeting? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Now, if you will, and we'll go back 16 and parse through it, describe to me with as much 17 precision as you can what occurred during this 18 meeting, what did they tell you, and if you can 19 distinguish between the two gentlemen, what did 20 they ask you, what did they show you, what did you 21 and Stacy tell them. Okay? 22 A. First of all, I won't be able to 23 distinguish which one said which but, as I said, 24 they identified each ?? themselves to us, showed 25 identification, which is sort of flash, and I said SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 448 1 that's fine, brief small talk about West Seattle, 2 isn't this pretty, you get that sort of stuff out 3 of the way. We may have even ordered the lunch at 4 that time. But getting down to the substance of 5 what you're interested in, they informed us that 6 they were undertaking an investigation ?? 7 Q. Excuse me one second. I'm going to make a 8 noise. I'm sorry. Okay. 9 A. ?? into the death of this woman and the 10 best as I recall, you know, are you familiar with 11 it and saying, you know, I've heard of it, and 12 somebody saying the difficulty is that with the 13 language, vocabulary and structure, that to be able 14 to understand this and ?? 15 Q. Structure of Scientology you mean? 16 A. Basically, yes. Saying like, for example, 17 there seems to be several different organizations 18 in Clearwater and how they relate, and I wasn't 19 asked to explain it, just as given as an example, 20 and reference to the earlier call, you remember I 21 asked you about the ?? this isolation thing. 22 You know, I don't want to hang on that too 23 much. I might have, when ?? I might not have even 24 been asked isolation, I might have been asked 25 introspection, I'm not quite sure, but one of those SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 449 1 two, and saying you remember we spoke about this, 2 yes, and blah, blah, blah. And Stacy commented, 3 and I backed her up on this, that Stacy's 4 experience in Scientology was more oriented to what 5 we call technical matters as opposed to 6 administrative matters, if that's understood. 7 Q. Ecclesiastical matters? 8 A. No. I've ?? I never used the word 9 ecclesiastical even when I was in there. That was 10 a PR statement you make to the media. 11 Q. Now, when you say technical, you're 12 talking about the religious part of Scientology? 13 A. No, no, no. There is no ?? well, 14 technical is red on white, administrative is green 15 on white. That's the basic way ?? 16 Q. To you, that's the way you look at it? 17 A. No, that's the definition. All ?? 18 Q. All right. But there are ?? but people 19 that believe in Scientology, and there are many 20 people out there that believe in Scientology and 21 are committed to Scientology, both people that are 22 staff members and people that are publics, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And when those people refer to the 25 technical part of Scientology, they are talking to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 450 1 what they believe is the ecclesiastical, religious, 2 spiritual part of Scientology? 3 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 4 Q. Correct? 5 A. No. 6 MR. DANDAR: You can go ahead a couple 7 more minutes. I'm getting very weak. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, come on, Ken. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'm serious. I haven't had 10 anything to eat all day. It's now 12:30. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm on a roll. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know ?? 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll stick it 14 out as long as he can. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It's up to him and ?? 16 MR. DANDAR: It isn't up to him. I'm 17 sorry. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So what you want to do is 19 go talk to him during the break? 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to take him to 21 lunch, yeah. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Are you going to 23 make a commitment on the record that this man 24 will not talk about this deposition, this 25 Andrews and Strope interview, with anybody, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 451 1 you, Mr. Prince, Ms. Young, during the break? 2 MR. DANDAR: Of course I will because 3 that's the way the rules are. We obey the 4 rules. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I just want to make sure 6 that I understand that. If you want to go, 7 you know, I'm prepared to go forward. 8 MR. DANDAR: If he wants to keep going. 9 THE WITNESS: I'd like about five minutes 10 because I'm in ?? 11 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. I'm sorry. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember this 13 thing, you know, which was ?? 14 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. You're right. I 15 didn't say break now. I just ?? go. Talk 16 about the conversation. 17 A. Do you want to ?? you've got a question? 18 MR. DANDAR: We got distracted on what 19 other people believe in instead of ?? 20 A. Where was I? Oh, oh. I got it. I got 21 it. 22 Q. You had just said that Stacy said that I'm 23 technical. 24 A. Was technical. Right. That her 25 background was technical. She was more heavily SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 452 1 trained in the red on white and I had been more 2 heavily trained and experienced with the green on 3 white, and when the subject matter of ?? either, as 4 I said, it was either isolation or introspection 5 came down, Stacy picked it up and said something to 6 the effect of I'm more familiar with that than he 7 is. And I said that's quite true, I know of it, I 8 had studied some of that material when I was on the 9 RPF, but I said, yeah, she's the best one to be 10 able to find material, answer questions, translate, 11 et cetera. It was asked, well, you know, basic ?? 12 I think the questions were along the line of, well, 13 what is it exactly? 14 Q. What is isolation? 15 A. If we were talking about introspection or 16 isolation ?? I think we were talking about 17 isolation and ?? or maybe they ?? tell you what, 18 maybe they were even coming together, and ?? 19 Q. And so they say what is isolation exactly? 20 A. Yeah, what is it. They wanted sort of the 21 laymen's interpretation, description of this. 22 Q. Then one of you tells them? 23 A. What? 24 Q. Then one of you responds to that? 25 A. She responded and gave what I thought was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 453 1 a pretty good description, talking about PTS III, 2 when a person breaks, the introspection rundown, 3 the person, the problem is they have become, and we 4 had to keep switching over to what we call wog 5 talk, which is ?? a wog is a nonScientologist. The 6 introspection is when a person goes in, you know, 7 looks inside themselves too much, and meanwhile, 8 you have to isolate them because they are going 9 crazy, something. She was good at ?? 10 Q. Well, go ahead. 11 A. She was good at giving that type of 12 description, as I say, a laymen's ?? or as we used 13 to call it in Scientology, a good verbal tech 14 description. There were questions, as I said, more 15 about our background, and he turned to me and says, 16 well, you know, what's more of your background if 17 she's that? And I said ?? gave him, you know, my 18 background. 19 Q. Which what did you tell him? 20 A. What organizations I had been with and 21 what echelons and working with the media, blah, 22 blah, blah. And somebody said something about the 23 effect of, well, we might be able to use Mrs. Young 24 a bit more because we are dealing with some of 25 these matters, et cetera. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 454 1 Q. What do you mean some of these matters? 2 A. The technical matters, and ?? and 3 somewhere along the line it wrapped up with, you 4 know, okay, we'll get back to you. As I said, it 5 was the ?? the meeting was more a case of feeling 6 us out and asking us questions and see if we can 7 give intelligent answers without falling into a 8 vocabulary that they couldn't understand. They 9 were trying to get an interface with the vocabulary 10 and the material. 11 Q. That's your best recollection? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, do you remember talking about ?? them 14 talking about the experience that the Clearwater 15 police had had with Scientology since the mid '70s? 16 A. He might have mentioned, you know, I'm 17 sure you're familiar with the police department has 18 interfaced with this organization a number of years 19 and I think I may have even said, hey, I was 20 familiar even when I was back there in the 21 organization, I watched it and advised on it on 22 times. 23 Q. Well, did he tell you what you already 24 knew, did they tell you what you already knew, that 25 the Clearwater Police Department had been SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 455 1 investigating Scientology for 20 years? 2 A. No. It wasn't that as much as what I 3 already knew, that there had been back and forth 4 disputes between the organization and the police 5 and the mayor's office and city council, but I was 6 already familiar with that. 7 Q. But y'all talked about that some? 8 A. No, we didn't talk about it. 9 Q. Well, did they express ?? well, both 10 Mr. Strope and Sergeant Andrews are not reluctant 11 to tell people what they feel about Scientology, 12 much like you. 13 MR. DANDAR: Is that a question? 14 Q. Now, my question is did they tell you and 15 Stacy what they felt about Scientology and 16 Scientologists? 17 A. Other than their difficulty in being able 18 to get information and understand it, no. 19 Q. Did they tell you that they did not 20 believe that Scientology is a religion, did they 21 tell you that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did they tell you that they believed 24 that ?? did they give you the details, did they 25 give you any details about Lisa McPherson's death? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 456 1 A. Not really. It was one of those things 2 where they say, you know, we're investigating this 3 and my saying I sort of know ?? yeah, I've heard 4 about it, and then you come back with a little bit 5 of a description about this woman who, and then 6 they ended up giving a brief synopsis, but I didn't 7 even get into, you know, that she ripped off her 8 clothes or she went and saw this doctor or anything 9 else. 10 Q. They didn't go into any of that? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did they ?? were they at all sarcastic 13 about the religious concepts, like isolation and 14 introspection rundown? 15 A. No. They were very ?? they were very 16 businesslike. It was ?? to tell you the truth, I 17 was very surprised that they had come all the way 18 up to Seattle and they seemed to have like a set of 19 questions and topics that they wanted to cover. In 20 fact, now that you mentioned that they went off and 21 saw Jerry Armstrong, I can see now that there was 22 almost like cookie cutter questions going through 23 people and topics. 24 Q. Like what? What do you mean by that? 25 A. Well, you know, I can see now that it was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 457 1 just ?? they had a number of questions to ask and 2 get responses to, and when they were done, they 3 were done. 4 Q. Yeah, but what I'm missing here, and maybe 5 over lunch you can get them into some categories, 6 it looked like there was a pretty short list. 7 A. Yes, because we only met for maybe like an 8 hour, long enough for a lunch. 9 Q. And the only thing on the list that I've 10 heard so far other than your ?? a little bit about 11 your background, is isolation or introspection. 12 What else was on the list? 13 A. As I said, wanting to know about the 14 organizations and how they interfaced, but we 15 didn't get into that, just, you know, would you be 16 able to assist in how these things interface, and 17 it was yes, but that was more based upon my 18 qualifications or her qualifications. As I said, 19 it was a ?? like a feeler reconnaissance thing that 20 ?? because they didn't ask for any documents, they 21 didn't ask, well, can you go find something for 22 this, et cetera. They wanted to come away with a 23 sense of who they could talk to. 24 Q. You didn't ?? you never ?? were you ever 25 subpoenaed by them? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 458 1 A. No. 2 Q. Was this recorded testimony? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did they make a tape or anything like 5 that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. And you never have signed any agreements 8 with them? 9 A. No. 10 Q. They didn't pay you for this time? 11 A. No. 12 Q. They didn't offer to pay you for this 13 time? 14 A. No. 15 Q. I'm talking about you and Stacy. 16 A. The answer stands. 17 Q. And they never called you back? 18 A. No. 19 Q. As far as you know, they didn't call Stacy 20 back, as far as you know? 21 A. As far as I know. 22 Q. Did they seem perturbed at all that they 23 had gone all that way to spend an hour with you? 24 A. No. It was a bit of puzzle to me but now 25 that you've mentioned that they were heading north, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 459 1 I ?? because I sort of wondered why somebody just 2 comes in for an hour, hour and 15 minutes, has 3 lunch and moves on. It seemed like ?? especially 4 two people. 5 Q. Must be a pretty well?financed police 6 department, isn't it? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I think we're out of tape. 9 MR. DANDAR: A good time to break. 10 Before we break, do you ?? would you like 11 Stacy and him to talk about this meeting so 12 you might get more information? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. 14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. So they won't talk 15 about it. 16 MR. WEINBERG: No. 17 MR. DANDAR: All right. Because that's 18 ?? you kind of hinted at that. 19 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't want them to 20 talk. 21 MR. DANDAR: You said over lunch. 22 MR. WEINBERG: It's inappropriate to be 23 talking during a deposition. 24 MR. DANDAR: I agree with you, but you 25 hinted at it and I just wanted to make sure. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 460 1 (Recess from 12:44 p.m. to 1:34 p.m.) 2 PLEASE REFER to Volume IV for further 3 deposition testimony. 4 NOTE: The original and one copy of the 5 foregoing deposition will be held by Mr. Shaw; copy 6 to Mr. Dandar. 7 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing 8 of the deposition transcript will be handled by the 9 office of Kennan G. Dandar of the firm Dandar & 10 Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201, 11 Tampa, Florida. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 461 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 Volume III 3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the 4 foregoing deposition given by me on December 21 & 5 22, 1999, in Tampa, Florida, and the following 6 corrections, if any, should be made in the 7 transcript: 8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Subject to the above corrections, if any, 19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing 20 deposition. 21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this 22 __________ day of ____________________ , 19___. 23 24 ________________________________ 25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 462 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 COUNTY OF POLK 5 6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby 7 certify that the witness named herein personally 8 appeared before me and was duly sworn. 9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10 24th day of December, 1999. 11 12 13 14 ________________________________ 15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR 16 Notary Public ? State of Florida 17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 463 1 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA 3 COUNTY OF POLK 4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter 6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared 8 before me for the taking of the foregoing 9 deposition, and that I was authorized to and did 10 stenographically and electronically report the 11 deposition; and that a review of the transcript was 12 requested; and that the transcript is a true and 13 complete record of my stenographic notes and 14 recordings thereof. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an 16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause, 17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party 18 connected with this litigation, nor am I 19 financially interested in the outcome of this 20 action. 21 DATED THIS 24th day of December, 1999, at 22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida. 23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 12?22?99 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000